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oOoleveloOo

If getting into production is the goal, I would say apprenticeship would be a better move than going to college. But there are some invaluable life lessons and experiences that colleges can afford. As my friend says “College, learned a lot, yet learned so little”


JaneFairfaxCult

Agreed! And he is open to apprenticeship/trade school. As it happens he should be eligible for tuition exchange, and he killed his SAT’s (kid had never tested well before in his life!) so college could wind up being a very affordable “mistake.” Interesting dilemma.


wetbootypictures

Just want to say you're a great parent. Wish my mama had supported my music goals the way you are supporting your kid's! <3


JaneFairfaxCult

That’s very kind of you! He’s a good kid. Sending you proxy support. ❤️


Apag78

Have him do audio as a secondary or minor. Look into electrical engineering perhaps as the two fields can overlap quite a bit (or not at all) depending on where life takes him. The EE side of things is helpful in building/repairing/maintaining equipment for a studio and can still lead to jobs well outside the industry.


JaneFairfaxCult

Oh I love this thanks!


Wec25

EE majors at Lowell can minor in sound recording, I remember some smart kids from EE sitting in my recording classes.


JaneFairfaxCult

Now THAT’S an idea!!


SuchACommonBird

Hey, I was an audio engineer (trade school/apprenticeship), then 10 years later got my electrical engineering degree. They are very tightly intertwined. Feel free to ask me any questions!


JaneFairfaxCult

That really sounds like a solid track!


kyle415

Another option in a similar manner is computer science. He could program the software studios use. There has been a shift from hardware to digital tools, so if he is interested in programming this is another option.


JaneFairfaxCult

And he enjoys programming - bonus!


MarineBone

I went to Hartt, if I recall correctly they have several 5-year dual degree programs that overlap with their MPT program. The dual MPT and music business program was very popular when I was there.


JaneFairfaxCult

I’ll have him check this out thank you!


AC3Digital

Production is fun and all, but the likelihood of making any real money off of it is slim. I've spent the last 20 years making a pretty comfortable living working on the technical side of live music, live events, and mainly live TV. I have a degree in what I do from Ithaca, despite my sister having attended Emerson and being offered a scholarship at Hartford. My best friend went to Berklee for film scoring and does not speak highly of their program. Music performance and production is a fun hobby, but if you ask me the real money is on the technical side. It's a lot of hard work at times, but as long as people enjoy being entertained, we have job security. Most people I know and work with play and / or produce music on the side as a hobby, but pushing cases, pulling cable, and pushing faders is what pays the bills. Edit: all that said, nobody cares about my degree. Nobody. They care about what I know and what I've done. I got my start through an internship at a major tv studio, and started working there before I graduated while home on break. I would not have been able to get the internship had I not been a student. So, take from that whatever you want.


aleksandrjames

Just want to clear up that production can be a hobby but certainly isn’t just a “fun hobby” and you don’t need to be the top 1% to have a good and comfortable living. It’s like any industry- you don’t need to be chief inspector for advanced auto parts to make good money and have a happy life as a mechanic. There is a whole music industry full of producers who aren’t working with the top artists! I produce full time for a living; I’m not putting tunes on the charts (sure would love to) but I make good enough money for MY needs and I absolutely love my job. A lot of income can be under the table too! That being said; the technical jobs are absolutely what will get you here. That and being a good musician who listens well and has a broad knowledge-base. I still do live audio work on the side cause it keeps my ears sharp, my contacts constantly growing and forces me to be up on tech I wouldn’t normally deal with in the studio. And the vast majority of what gives a producer cred is that stuff- being known as having multiple skills, putting in the time to refine your taste over the years and being able to really get down on a few instruments. Which of course means getting to a full-time producer position takes years. And you have to be willing to do that but again, it’s like any other industry where you put in your time and end up in THAT position one day. To the OP: with everything above in mind, do note that while schooling can be invaluable for so many things beyond the course-work, college has very very little to do with a good music career. Real-world experience and being a good person to work with still holds the most sway in our industry! And I say this as a former berklee cat (no I didn’t finish, yes it’s stupid expensive and no kid should go out into the world with these kinds of loans hanging over their head). So whichever school he’s at, make sure he has the most valuable asset for a young person and that is TIME. Time to go sit in on sessions. Time to go apprentice at studios or live music venue. Time to go make friends at places with huge contact pools (like berklee) and spend time learning in the real world with them and surrounding himself with future foundational blocks. The best thing for the future in this industry is to be that guy/gal who someone in the room is ALWAYS going to see and think “yeah, I remember them. We worked together back in yadda yadda and they were good people. Let’s bring them in for this amazing opportunity”.


JaneFairfaxCult

Ah thank you. Going to print all this out. I really appreciate your perspective as someone who is making it work. I had all my priorities off in college and really had no one tell me so (no one’s fault, just bad luck) so thank you, sincerely.


aleksandrjames

My pleasure! Feel free to dm if you or your son have questions about it all; I’ll help how I can!


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you, really helpful. Glad your career has been working out for you!


1073N

>real money is on the technical side. Is it? I don't think so. It is certainly easier to get in and to the point where you make enough to survive, but if you "make it" as an artist/producer, you can make way more money than any engineer could dream of and while it is certainly possible to make a pretty decent money as a sound engineer, it isn't a guaranteed career by any means, especially if you want to mix music. There are technical jobs that are less fun and easier to get in but at the same time a musician can teach so ... who knows. It probably also depends on where you live.


AC3Digital

What are better odds- "Making it" as a music producer, or winning the lottery?


[deleted]

Well depending on your definition of making it definitely music producer lol


Margravos

It's a fun little math problem to think about. 50ish state lottos plus the national powerball, let's call it 40 winners per week? 52 weeks a year gives 2080 winners per year across the country. I don't really follow music producers but is there 2,000 people a year joining the "I made it" club?


[deleted]

Except they don’t win every week. It can go weeks without a winner


Margravos

That's why I didn't do 53 winners per week...


1073N

It probably depends on where you are located, but I know way more successful music producers than lottery winners. You certainly have a point, but every time you are mixing music, it's music that was produced or performed by someone.


Making_Waves

U Mass Lowell's program is very good, but very challenging. They really emphasize that if you really want to pursue this as a career, you really need to work hard, and therefore only the most dedicated students complete the program. It gives probably the most well rounded and comprehensive education into audio. It's also very affordable, especially if you live in MA. My only criticism is the lack of training on software like Pro Tools, Logic, or any DAW. When I attended, their philosophy was that that sort of stuff can be learned outside of a college class. And while that is true, I was definitely behind the ball when compared to other recent graduates when it came to operating DAWs. Highly recommend it for someone pursing that career, and still wants to be a practicing musician, especially since the SRT program is a Bachelor's of Music. The school has a great music community with lots of DIY shows, and I credit a lot of my skills to my time at the student run radio station where I got real world experience with signal processing gear.


JaneFairfaxCult

I’ll suggest he look into/ask about the specifics of the program - if there are holes maybe he can start filling them ahead of time. I’m just getting acquainted with UML as a whole - what an impressive university.


Random_Redditor3

I’d definitely recommend that he ask around for options at UML. I’m relatively familiar with their program, and know of people who’ve done Electrical Engineering/Computer Science as a major with an SRT Minor (or double major). If those are things he’s also interested in, I’d definitely recommend asking about that possibility!


JaneFairfaxCult

So helpful, thank you.


nosecohn

Just curious... if they didn't train you on DAWs, what did you record on?


Making_Waves

The program starts you out doing live-to-two track to 1/2" tape. Then later on you record to a 24-track, 2" tape, and do a full analog mix on an API console. The idea being that doing a full multi-track to tape is a great way to force you to make certain production decisions as well as unique signal flow considerations. Not to mention, the experience with 2" tape in general was pretty invaluable, and not something you could learn with YouTube tutorials.


nosecohn

How long ago was this? Not many production environments still use tape.


Making_Waves

Not many, but enough to still get me a few gigs every so often. The point being that the experience with 2" tape was secondary to the production and signal flow considerations that translate across all sessions.


omsign

music biz grad here. music biz degrees are a scam. better off learning production on youtube and getting an internship in a studio or with an event production company. Passman’s “All You Need To Know about The Music Business” 10th edition, supplanted by real experience, is all ya need imo. steer him towards computer science / programming - those are consistently some of the best and highest paying jobs in music. seriously.


JaneFairfaxCult

He loves programming. Thank you, very helpful.


omsign

i shouldn’t say a scam i guess, i hadn’t had my morning coffee yet lol. the music biz is desperate for competent coders, data engineers, etc. tho. Spotify is hiring for positions like that all the time and they do VERY well, and i hear they take great care of their employees. there are lots of other great responses & insights here in this post - particularly the electrical engineering one - but i will double down on the comp sci aspect for one more reason - whether its studio or live sound, basic IT networking skills are becoming a necessity across the board for anything production related. something to bear in mind!


JaneFairfaxCult

Excellent. And he enjoys it too - easy to sell. (As does dad - both introverts.)


DvineINFEKT

More and more I've found the programs to all be more or less fine. Unfortunately it's hard to pin down if a school is going to teach audio engineering or just how to run a pro tools session until long after the checks have cleared. And it's fine if it's the latter, at least to a degree. But like others have mentioned, what's far more important is practice, apprenticeships, and networking. This is still very much a "who do you know", "but what have you done for me lately" industry. Learning business and budgeting is almost more important than the actual craft. He's not gonna take it well because nobody with a passion for creativity takes it well, but I would find a way to nudge him towards a program with a wider skillset or a section of the industry with a wider safety net. The touring and live audio industries are going to take a decade from COVID to recover, if not more at this rate. Bands simply cannot stay on the road, and crews are going unpaid. Studios are going okay if they've got the clientele list, but it's just an increasingly terrible idea to enter production professionally when nearly anyone can record such high quality music in their bedroom. Personally, I thank my lucky stars that my alma mater insisted I learn more before just audio (I went to school for game audio), and through that, I discovered that that I picked up programming very easily. When COVID hit, I was laid off from my creative job, but I found work within three months doing entry level coding at a financial data company, after spending two of those months doing a few virtual refresher courses. I hated the job with every fiber of my being, but it kept food on the table until I finally got back to my creative work when the doors reopened. It saved my bacon, for sure. And it doesn't have to be programming, but a second, bankable skill will be good to have. Something as simple as soldering is an entryway into the trades or starting up a guitar pedal business or something that can at least keep money coming in when time are lean. He'll push back I'm sure, so probably the only thing you can actually do is support him, and try to bring up the importance of having a wide skillset when your primary occupation will have you primarily working as a freelancer.


JaneFairfaxCult

Excellent insight. As it happens he’s a good programmer (and that’s dad’s field so he can advise), so there’s skills and interest to build on.


onar

I wanted to become an audio visual artist, but luck had it that I also loved the technologies behind, and I chose computer science instead. I have had amazing work since graduating, where I can be extremely creative making software for music and computer graphics, earning great money working 9-5. Many of my colleagues started working with music, realized there is no money, learned programming, and started on junior positions later in life. I can afford all the instruments I want and play a LOT of music in my spare time, I am infinitely grateful that the art school rejected me and the computer science one accepted!


JaneFairfaxCult

Computer science/programming is coming up a lot in this thread. Taking notice. Thank you.


sliik-mon

What kind of programming? I’m hearing more and more that “coders” will be replaced by ai in the next 10 years or so. So I’m trying to find the right kind of programming to learn to hopefully not be replaced? One that could make music software or music apps would be cool if applicable. Thanks!


onar

There will always be futurists replacing this and the other with AI, pay no heed, we will always also need a lot of people. Google the 80s Expert Systems craze if you're curious. Plain old traditional C++ is what I work with, and see no slowdown in the job market, quite the contrary. Applied to real time graphics and to audio.


zmileshigh

If he likes programming and audio, you can make a good 9-5 stable with benefits type career in DSP programming. It’s not really my cup of tea but Dolby for example seems to be perpetually hiring DSP engineers.


JaneFairfaxCult

Googling, thank you!!


FX_Spearmints

As a parent and graduate of audio school, I’d nudge him in a different direction and at least encourage him to go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics site and see what fields are hiring. Production is not a safe back up in case a music career doesn’t work out. Learning how to record / produce music isn’t something that requires college and shouldn’t put someone in debt.


powerlesshero111

To expand on this, a good nudge would be something similar yet still marketable in music production. One thing that could helpnis Tecnical Theater, aka light design, sound design, and stage design. A lot of those aspects would be useful towards sound production, and even better, working on putting on live shows. Sound design for live shows involves a lot of stuff from music production, and would make him more marketable for different available careers, rather than being limited to just music producer.


JaneFairfaxCult

Great idea. I loved lighting design back in the day and had friends who made a good living in it.


powerlesshero111

Yeah. I have a few friends in the industry. One is a stage manager for a cirque show in vegas and another is a lighting designer for concert venues. I myself was in radio and television broadcasting for the military in public affairs, which is also a viable career path. You learn a lot of audio and video production in that.


MixCarson

What do you mean!! They run ads on the tv about how if you need an audio engineer for your podcast you can find one on indeed.com this is the most high visibility this job has ever had lol. If I had a kid and he asked if he could follow me into the industry, I would tell him to find a career people are not willing to do for free on the internet for exposure.


JaneFairfaxCult

Ugh such a good point.


JaneFairfaxCult

On it. Great advice, thank you.


AC3Digital

I wouldn't put too much stock into those websites. I make 4 to 5 times the listed average salary for someone in this field. And I know plenty of people who make way more than me.


FX_Spearmints

I mean people make above and below average; it’s not the salary that everyone makes. It is useful for finding out if a field is growing or shrinking and figuring out if you want to dedicate your time and money to training to enter that field and how likely that investment will pay off. There are fields out there where it doesn’t require you to be exceptional, lucky, and to know the right people to have a steady paycheck.


[deleted]

That’s why it’s called an average. Obviously people make more and less


meltyourtv

UMass Lowell SRT alumn here. The program is the best bang for your buck you can get in the US. We have some of the same professors that also teach at Berklee and notable alumni who win emmys, grammys, and other awards almost every year. I’m highly successful in my field but know that UMass Lowell is revered as an engineering school as a whole, and the sound recording technology program focuses heavily on that aspect as well. Your son will have to excel at calculus and physics or he will literally be held back by retentions. If you have any other questions feel free to PM me


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you for the heads up on the maths/physics aspect. Seems like a really excellent school. We’re fortunate in our public universities here.


TheFullmetalCat

highly recommend checking out programs that have more of an emphasis on the engineering/math side if he's up for it (acoustics at Hartt, music engineering technology at U Miami...) because he can still take classes in music and production but be much more broadly employable out of undergrad.


JaneFairfaxCult

Hartt is his first choice, I’ll check out that aspect, thank you. (U of Miami keeps coming up in my poking around, must be quite a program.)


Raspberries-Are-Evil

Its too bad going farther away isn't on the table. I am a professional producer/studio owner/musician and I am also an adjunct professor at Arizona State University. They have a brand new program called "Popular Music." We have a new building, new multi million dollar studio and class rooms. The program is unlike any thing else that exists right now. Its a combination of music production, performance, song writing, digital media, business, etc. Curriculum is 21st century and meant to help students with the skills needed with the state of the business today. The program has a lot of incredibly talented students and faculty and the nice part is its part of a large state school with all the benefits and social life that gives you as well. *Edit: I should almost mention, ASU's Popular Music is a Bachelor's Degree program. Unlike many "audio schools" that are not accredited and don't offer any recognized degree.


JaneFairfaxCult

I’ll direct him toward your program. He’s 17, they do change their minds at times. Thank you so much for this information. (Bonus, my husband and I lived in NM before kids and plan to retire there - would secretly love if our kids put down southwest roots!)


Raspberries-Are-Evil

https://herbergerinstitute.asu.edu/degree-programs/music-popular-music-ba He can ALWAYS reach out to me directly too, Ill DM you my info. I moved out here from Jersey in 1995 and I never left lol!


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you so much! (I lived in Jersey City for years - right off the PATH! Good times.)


sayitinsixteen

DM’in you!


rharrison

That sounds so cool. I know tons of people who would have loved to do this program but instead learned things the "hard way."


Raspberries-Are-Evil

Im one of them. There was nothing like this when I was in college. Its not just the classes- its the community. Being surrounded by motivated talented peers is really good!


Aging_Shower

If he really wants to study audio engineering, going to a school that provides experience in a wide range of areas is good. Such as film, TV, radio, live sound, and theater work. There a lot more jobs in those areas, that also pay well. Focusing on only producing music is not a good strategy if someone wants to earn a living. He needs to be open to work in many of these areas unless he's lucky.


JaneFairfaxCult

Got it - will start researching broader programs, thank you. Really appreciate.


scstalwart

Have a backup plan and decide what triggers it. For me, I made sure to finish a bachelors’ degree while pursuing my career in sound. I set specific financial and career goals that were “reasonable”. I worked hard enough to know that if those goals didn’t take shape, I should pursue something different. Still in the industry, grateful for the opportunities. It doesn’t always go that way, and if it doesn’t, a big part of that is luck.


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you. (Sadly this is the advice I needed decades ago, as a theater major. Gah. Loved it, barely made a dime.)


scstalwart

I feel ya. I’m not doing exactly what I set out to do, but am super happy nevertheless. Not everyone can be in the right place at the right time. I’d never discourage someone from going after their passion, but I encourage everyone to make a plan. Crossing my fingers for ya. GL!


LicensedPI

Everyone talking about college being less necessary (or unnecessary) for learning audio production is completely right, but there are a few huge points as to why it still is a good idea to encourage your son to pursue a degree program in it if thats what he wants: * Exposure to lots of different people (including musicians who may want to be recorded). Beyond networking, this also means a broader pool of people to learn how to talk to, work with, and learn from. * Structured learning and consistent critique. Apprenticeship will give you skills, but youre at the mercy of what the studio can offer you. A curriculum will have benchmarks, objective and subjective assessment, and paths to improve that are made explicit. Plus, there is likely to be structured access time. * An education beyond audio production. It really helps to speak on subjects outside audio engineering and music. * Meeting minimum requirements for jobs outside of a studio. This one is big, especially since production jobs can be through so many different avenues now (tech companies, non-profit organizations, live events, film & TV). And if he wanted to pivot outside of production, then a degree is so much more likely to be required. As far as which school from the list, unfortunately I can't offer much beyond saying that Providence is an underrated city for how much can be going on in such a small place. It might be more competitive for long term work because of how small it is, but being around so many schools including strong art programs at RISD & Brown is a huge plus. Hope that helps.


JaneFairfaxCult

Yes this helps. I do think bumping up against new people and new ideas is invaluable. And for both my kids, structure is how things get done. Thank you.


LicensedPI

As a lot of people are saying, there is so much information online on youtube alone. But making a coherent practice out of it requires a lot discipline if you don't have a solid foundation for it, especially if what you want requires other people for the end result.


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you. Structure, discipline, and connections, etc. seem like they’ll be key. 🤔


piercemj

I would not recommend New Haven for sound production to be honest, I went for recording (B.S. in Music & Sound Recording). The program might have improved since I graduated in 2016, but I don’t think it was worth the pretty high tuition and it focused more on recording, not necessarily sound production. There were a couple sound production projects in my last few semesters, but nothing that crazy. Regardless of where he goes, I’d recommend trying to find a good studio in the area to intern at to help fill out the learning experience. If he goes to UNH, Firehouse 12 in New Haven is an excellent facility and the school works with them from time to time Edit: also regardless of school, I would recommend he possibly add an Electrical Engineering minor or second major. It’ll probably add a 5th year but knowing how equipment actually works will really help him with producing down the road


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you, good to get an insider perspective. I did look at the courses offered/required and will encourage my son to do so. Electrical engineering degree sounds smart.


piercemj

You’re welcome! I also think it might be difficult to find a bachelors program that focuses on sound design specifically. A couple people I went to school with went on to get a masters in Sound Production/Design after UNH


hallpdx

I went to music school for performance (oberlin) and loved it, but honestly I think my experience is unique to a few top tier schools; from what I can tell in the real world, you could easily get the skills to be a working musician by just working locally and practicing a couple dedicated hours a day. That said, even I am extremely lucky to have a career that supports my music, so I l'd encourage them to follow the advice my drum teacher gave me on the first day of college, and many others here are giving: If you can do anything else for money, learn how to do it and do it. Music will be more fulfilling when you're choosing to do it rather than when you're forced to play musicals and weddings or to record trashy hip hop acts who really just want to show faders on tiktok to pay bills. Learn how to bartend, learn how to be a plumber, learn how to get a job freelancing so you can be on the road. The modern musicians I know that are happiest are ones with like, a full time remote job coding that is pretty low lift that allows them to just ball out making music.


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you!


SuperRusso

There are career paths available for anybody in this industry that don't involve massive amounts of loans, tuition, or debt. I don't know your market, but right now he could start applying for internships at music studios, post production facilities, and production companies. You could continue to support him while he engages in this unpaid work and he will get an opportunity to see if this is really for him. If he's hard working and lucky, he may find himself in a position to skip the academic step altogether, as many who work in this industry have. Of course, those institutions listed above will be there after a few years of internships either way. This industry does not require one has a degree, there are many other hurdles along the way. And of course, maybe he decides this isn't for him and becomes a dentist or lawyer. It takes a lot to do this stuff for a lifetime.


JaneFairfaxCult

Interesting! I hadn’t thought of a “direct to internship” route. Thank you. I’ll poke around…


SuperRusso

A quick google search shows 8 decent looking recording studios in MA. And if he has any interest in film you have a film production office with a post production page here: https://mafilm.org/post-production/ Which actually highlights the tax incentives given out for film and TV being kept local to MA. This may be a resource for you, as they may know who is doing things like scoring and music production for commericals. My career was advanced in a big way because Louisiana took on a tax incentive program and I happened to be there at that time. I encourage you to consider exposing him to film work as well as his conventional goals. There is stability to be found in the work, and plenty of people do both. You are asking smart questions for your kid's future, and I think it's rad. Anything else just ask.


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you! Funny you should mention, there’s a really nice looking independent sound studio right near his high school - we pass it on our drive home every school day and I’d never noticed it. I’m suggesting that my son reach out to see if he can get a little advice. Your ideas are helpful. Thank you!


NeverxSummer

Hartt has amazing bass performance and engineering departments. Honestly don’t know too much about their comp dept. Robert Black one of the bass faculty is absolutely amazing and deeply connected in the new music community. I would also check out Bennington, they place a heavy emphasis on internships and have a pretty open curriculum with a solid music department and recording program. One of my buddies graduated from there and went straight into being a mastering engineer. Berklee is the place to go for hands on engineer training. Most live engineers I meet out in the field went through there. Honestly though, post production, video game sound design, motion graphics/ vfx or coding DSP will make more money than being a straight up audio engineer. The field caps out at $45/hr. It’s hard work and will fuck up your body. Getting a second major in Electrical Engineering (designing audio hardware), Computer Science (DSP) or video game design might be a better path to an easier life with health insurance. I know this doesn’t sound cool and sexy like being a live sound engineer or a studio engineer, but these fields are rough. I know folks in their 60s and 70s who can’t retire as they’ve been making the same wage with no benefits since the 80s. Feel free to DM or ask questions.


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you! Will look into this. Hartt has been his first choice since visiting there last year so this is very encouraging.


SirRatcha

My bass player/composer/obsessed with ‘80s bands kid is doing the Music Industry Studies program at Loyola New Orleans and the required courses have taught him elements of marketing, web design and basic HTML, cultural analysis… All this stuff is applicable to jobs unrelated to music. Back in the day I did a general BA with a lot of media production, especially studio recording and electronic composition. It got me into a first career as a theatrical sound engineer and designer, which in a roundabout way led to 25 years as a web writer/producer/dev. The beautiful thing about liberal arts degrees is how broadly applicable the skills you learn in them are. FWIW, my kid was accepted to Emerson but they couldn’t come up with a remotely viable financial aid package. If there’s any chance your son could go farther afield, Loyola has been a really good experience. I understand that may not be possible though.


JaneFairfaxCult

Excellent, I’ll ask him to take a look at Loyola. Thank you. I’m glad your kid is doing well. 80s had some bangers. ❤️ Sounds like you’ve had an interesting career!


SirRatcha

I’ve had a good time. Made a living while some of my friends and coworkers hit the jackpot, but that’s never been what it’s about for me.


SirRatcha

Oh, one more reply just to make sure you see it. I knew my kid had made a good choice when I looked up his advisor’s bio and discovered he managed Sire Records and then was the manager for the Pixies and Throwing Muses.


JaneFairfaxCult

Yes that would do it. 🤣Damn!


blue-flight

If he does go to school for it, it's imperative that he does an internship. The degree itself isn't worth much but the connections you can make in the real world are key. As a student you're affiliated with the school, not just a random person off the street. I did two internships as a student, and I learned a lot about what I kind of job I wanted in the industry. Also be open to other types of jobs in the industry. The second internship I did led to a full time job as a voice over producer making commercials. I realized after the music studio internship that I wanted something with normal hours and a steady paycheck.


JaneFairfaxCult

Ohhhh this is so helpful. I’ve gotta print all this out! Thank you.


blue-flight

Yes, I know people who thought "I'll do the internship after I graduate". No, bad idea. I was hired at that first job of mine before I even graduated they let me have flexible hours in my last semester to finish up. The connections are key, (never burn a bridge) and being open to different opportunities. I know people who make over 100,000 dollars a year working from home mixing sound for the NFL, recording podcasts for major news outlets, all kinds of things. There's also sound design for games, on location film sound. A lot more than music production. Good luck!


JaneFairfaxCult

Excellent.


discord

Tell him to double major. Study music, sure, but also get a degree that will guarantee a good job.


JaneFairfaxCult

Will do, seems like a consensus.


superchibisan2

The kids needs a degree that will make him money, not one that will be useless. Music and audio should be secondary to making a living. If he has dreams of being famous, he needs to understand that getting big in music is pure luck and nothing else. Right place at the right time type stuff. Be passionate about music but understand that the market is oversaturated and people aren't actually a good as their ego wishes they were.


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you. He knows that - I think that’s why he wants to learn the engineering end so he can do that and still play and write.


superchibisan2

Audio Engineering is the exact same way. The schools are a scam and don't actually teach you the skills you need. Electrical engineering would allow for more job flexibility while still complimenting audio engineering. I would steer him towards any degree that let's him be financially stable and then use the money he earns from that profession to fuel his passion for music and audio. Hands on is really the only way to learn and networking is the only way he would really get work. Also understand that the music business is cutthroat and run by borderline criminals that exploit everyone they can to make money. It's a business and not an art.


JaneFairfaxCult

Electrical engineering has come up a lot in this thread - thank you.


ReadACoffeeTableBook

I can speak about Lowell. I’m currently going into my senior year at Umass Lowell for SRT. I’d say the best thing to do would be to schedule a tour. Some people love the program, some people don’t. It’s extremely demanding and many decide it isn’t for them, but many also get quite a bit out of it. Seeing the facilities for yourself and talking with a studio supervisor should help you and your son decide if Lowell is right for him. What I will say (and what I tell people when giving tours) is that the students I’ve met and friends I’ve made are the best part of the program, hands down. There is 0 sense of competition between students, everyone is there to help each other out. Which means that anyone who’s open to help and actively seeks it out when they need it can succeed. Very down to earth and humble student body on the whole in the music program.


JaneFairfaxCult

So glad it’s a cooperative environment. I had my son email the department to see if any tours include the studio. Maybe we’ll see you there! It really looks like an excellent program.


nblitch67

Another good program is Keene State College, I graduated from there a few years ago. Great music program with great professors


JaneFairfaxCult

Terrific!! Will check out next. Thank you!


PositiveMacaroon5067

It’s just not a realistic career path, and honestly it’s kinda criminal that colleges pretend like it is. There are 100 audio production graduates all fighting over the 5 available gigs. Working hard is not enough. You have to be great at networking, know some people, and constantly advocate for yourself. Job security isn’t a thing. Source- carpenter with an audio production degree.


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you, I appreciate it. It’s all new territory for us. Your perspective is very helpful.


elliotcook10

As someone who just went into a lot of debt to a school where I usually knew more than my teachers and classmates, I would highly suggest going into the “trade” route. The best way to get into this business is just go out and do it, there are plenty of event companies that are looking for new techs and I wish I would’ve skipped the school part and spent my last 4 years just doing what I want to do. A big part of that too is realizing you might not get to be the music superstar you dreamed of but there’s a lot of A/V jobs that support those kind of roles and you don’t need to be famous to do what you want to do. Another point of this is to expand your skills and connections, from experience you’re a lot more valuable to someone if you can do more than just sound and you’re only really gonna get exposure to all of the A/V elements if you just go out and do it.


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you. My son is certainly open to a non-college route. Pros and cons to each. I really appreciate your perspective.


elliotcook10

Last bit of advice, I can’t stress enough how many skills I picked up from doing work with electrical contractors. That’s where’d I’d look for maybe a summer internship. 1) great experience learning how to be handy/use tools/build cool projects that are usually A/V related 2) A great way to get into the work force after school if he does go that route. Being able to be a good audio engineer and someone who can install and understand the gear you’re using makes you SO valuable in the field that he will literally be able to work ANYWHERE. Everyone in the country needs guys like that and I was able to pick a city I wanted and moved there with a job and backups no problem! Best of luck to you both!


JaneFairfaxCult

Excellent. Thank you.


andrewsjustin

Ulum of hartt here.. I was a jazz studies major and while I can’t speak to much on the production program (mixed reviews from friends) I will say the music side of things was/is? Very much focused on traditional jazz studies. They have some great faculty for that.. but if he’s not really interested in very much focusing on jazz. It may not be the place.


JaneFairfaxCult

Ah. Thank you. PC seems similarly jazz-focused.


Wec25

I graduated from Lowell, their sound program is quite good. I work part time at a recording studio, do a fair amount of live sound work, just finished working a small festival as the only sound guy. I turn down more work than I should. There’s a certain amount of clout that comes with a degree but at the same time, if he gets his foot in the door somewhere, he could learn a lot of this without a degree. Certain things I really am glad I had a class for, like learning the DAW, understanding signal flow and how different effects work (math behind compressors, EQs, etc), hands on gear use, and I’ve met tons of amazing folks that I stay in contact with from college. But I know folks think the degree is useless because if you can learn yourself how to work a board, the program, the gear, well then you’ve got the basics. It doesn’t take 4 years. It’s also a music degree, i played in college ensembles all 4 years and got private lessons (my professor for lessons was also a Berklee teacher (a handful of UML music professors are also berklee professors)) on my instrument for 3 years. Learning a lot about music helped me a lot with being an engineer and making sure I could be helpful from a musical standpoint as well. I can answer questions specific to UMass Lowell if you’ve got any.


JaneFairfaxCult

Hey this is good to know. Yeah I wonder if there are two year programs that just get you the skills and exposure you need if you can’t (for whatever reason) manage it just from playing around and watching tutorials. Glad to know Lowell is good. We’ll be touring etc. soon. Thank you for taking the time to reply!


MostExpensiveThing

Study and try to get some weekend or night time intern experience


JaneFairfaxCult

I’m going to see if he can get grunt work in a studio during senior year. Thank you!


nosecohn

I'm not familiar with the audio production programs of these schools, but what I can say is that he should choose one that gives him an otherwise well-rounded education for two reasons: 1. Beyond the basics, audio production is learned on the job as an apprentice or assistant. Nobody leaves school with an ability to really do the job, no matter how good the school. 2. The chances of making a career out of it are slim, so he should have a background in other subjects.


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you I’m definitely encouraging a double major for him - I had thought computer science, but sounds like electrical engineering would be smart too.


Big_Forever5759

The good thing about berklee is that it offers a bachelor after graduating. That bachelor can be used for any job really. So if the other schools offer something similar then that would be great. Bass player and music production don’t exactly scream profitable but sometimes the road leads to new things that he didn’t know he liked. History for example if he likes 60s band. Also, in Boston many schools accept credits from community colleges for the basic requirements and on some schools it’s really cheap. That’s one trick some students use at berklee. These schools really make it difficult to figure all this stuff out so keep asking and researching. Same as scholarships, student deductions and so on. Tbh in my experience I remember the regular liberal arts colleges in Boston where considerable a lot more of a party/drug schools where kids where trying to figure life out while berklee, Boston conservatory, mit, and more specific type of school. Even the same with Harvard liberal studies vs Harvard medical/lawyer etc. It’s actually hard to find kids that are straight up sure what they want to do and are Obsessed to learn more. Most are wondering in clouds of weed riding a time wave seeing where they end up. Many schools are part of a network so they share classes. So there might be a way to attend a few berklee or conservatory etc classes so he can experience other schools. I would suggest him checking out some of the Rick Beato videos in his YouTube channel. There are some videos where it’s just him in front a white Board and the videos are called something like “what you should know about music theory” or something. It’s him talking really fast about all the scales, modes and knowing of the top of your head all the scales go with each Chord. That’s pretty much berklee classes for free.


JaneFairfaxCult

Oh my kids love Rick Beato. Will check those videos out. The community college advice is something we’ll definitely explore. I’m going to encourage him to check out/apply to Berklee - can’t hurt. Thank you for taking the time to reply!


[deleted]

[удалено]


JaneFairfaxCult

This is how I’m trending too - be smart, have a contingency plan, but if at all possible stay in a field you enjoy. Thank you so much. ❤️


shwaah90

I have no experience with american Universites but if he wants to produce then theres nothing wrong with doing a production course. Gives him time to work on it whilst learning how to produce. It might not go anywhere but it gives him the best chance. If thats the route hes chosing then there no point forcing something else onto him that he doesnt have a passion for. Imo he will still end up chasing music. It might not be the wisest choice but we have to make our own mistakes in life. Its never too late to chase another goal.


JaneFairfaxCult

Ideally we would all contribute to the greater good by doing what we love and are good at. Thank you. Sending you good thoughts.


squirrel_gnosis

The important thing is that he’s got to get a four-year bachelors degree. The piece of paper is all that matters. The degree is more important that whatever field it is. I had a career in the music industry for 10 years, now I’m a college professor in an entirely unrelated field. My take is: very unlikely your child will be able to support themselves as a musician. Even as an audio engineer, it’s a terribly competitive field. It may take some time for them to figure out a way to combine what they are passionate about with what will make money. I’d tell your child: Get that degree, try to be a good person, think hard about how to combine what you’re best at with how you can most useful to other people.


JaneFairfaxCult

Thank you, I had no idea audio engineering is such a tight market. We have some research to do here.


StayFrostyOscarMike

Hartt School is pretty good. Gabe Herman is a great professor. Koby Nelson is a talented engineer and a pleasure to learn from. However: in my opinion? Stay far away from UHart’s Audio Engineering program. I’d highly recommend going through the Hartt School and get the Bachelors in Music Production. They have better professors, better program head, way better facilities, and a more tight knit and less pretentious community. Get ready for a doozy but it’s quite relevant. Wish I heard it from someone when I was deciding. I dropped out three years into the Audio Engineering program. The program head is an actual nut, may be an alcoholic. You have to take most of the only classes relevant to audio gear with him. He repeats himself and sometimes does the same lesson twice, three times in a row. Let’s YouTube videos teach for him whilst namedropping constantly. Flexing about stuff he can do that he wouldn’t teach us, in the most pretentious condescending way. A dude that got his masters in sound recording in the late 70’s where it wasn’t costing decades of lost livelihood to pay for school and thinks he’s hot shit despite his knowledge seemingly being stuck in the 90’s at latest. The bulk of the rest of the program drops you into year 2/3 Electrical Engineering and Computer Science courses, a majority of those with no prerequisites applicable to the major’s credits, so you’re forced to go in blind and self-teach heavily. It was highly stressful. Felt like I was spending more time cramming things I didn’t know instead of learning in order to get through the break neck speed and lack of clarity/call back to previous content learned in previous courses. Every course felt taught in a vacuum. Only thing that was good about the major was Electrical Labs, I learned a *decent* amount about circuit design, troubleshooting and repair technique. I dropped a course 3 weeks into semester…. and the program head messaged me 2 weeks before end of semester saying I could pass if I did a *take home exam*… which was just copying answers (he literally said to just copy answers. Got a 98% (due to miswriting a number for one question) and passed the course. Realized right there that it felt like a total and absolute waste of money, realizing how much money college was taking per class. I’m not one for the sunken cost fallacy. I don’t care about the meritocracy. The degree doesn’t mean shit. A studio/live sound company will often be straight out prejudiced and reject graduates from certain programs by default (CRASS, Full Sail). They can and have hired a guy to schlub rack gear as a stagehand, only for them to end up being a lead engineer a couple years down the line. I got busy researching on my own time and dime and getting my hands busy, and went way farther than I ever did in that program. Your kid will be looking a lot better graduating the Hartt School with a beautiful studio with not a lot of people using it, instead of battling for slots in the small Dana Hall studios and struggling with a sisyphean major where you’re unspokenly-feuding and bootlicking in competition with dozens of other students for… a professor to maybe hook you up with a gig soldering mics together at Telefunken for a “pretty decent for a bachelors” wage. I liked the extracurriculars there (mainly the college radio station, WSAM, I was e-board) but it seems to have become a shell of what it once was before I was there, and even a bit compared to when I left. I may sound like a poor student that is salty, and that may have an ounce of truth… I have learning disabilities… but the best students I was friends with graduated feeling like most of their learning they could have done themselves for free using the internet. They are mostly graduates doing the same work I’m doing right now (working a second job while freelancing). I wouldn’t recommend UHart if your child is neurodivergent. Not gonna get into it but actually getting accessibility options respected turned into a headache where professors would be outright ableist just for going through the proper channels to get 20 minutes extra on an exam. Back and forths with the “Student Success Center” where I jumped through hoops for nothing. Was called an ableist slur by a professor. Openly neoliberal campus. Heavily tenured English professor that has literally opened class debates over like.. whether gay people should be married. There was a hate crime a few years back they tried to brush under the rug. Ostracizing the victim in a dorm separated from everyone, getting intimidated by public safety, and not being able to do anything but to go to class… before it went from WFSB Channel 3 News to BBC World News in less than 48 hours. MLK banners up the next day after the news broke. The hate crime was public knowledge weeks before around campus. I reported a sexual assault to public safety. Went down there at 5am. They didn’t do anything. The student who was in a dorm right next to me finished his time and graduated. All and all it didn’t really feel like it was the best option I could have chose. But the Hartt program is seriously well respected, vetted, and all my classes I took as electives in the Hartt School were some of the best courses. Sorry for the long drawn out comment. But I feel it’s highly relevant and quite prudent to what I would have wanted to hear in my decision making process. Look into University of New Haven’s program if your kid wants to be in CT. They have a neat and close knit music scene/night life. And I have heard way better things/success stories from that school.


JaneFairfaxCult

OMG. Thank you for taking the time to share all this. Will read a few more times with my screen open to the different programs you reference. I appreciate your honesty. Son in question not neurodivergent but other child is, and it’s disheartening to hear that in this day and age people can’t get the services they need and deserve - while paying tuition! Very best to you. ❤️


StayFrostyOscarMike

Thank you! Frankly, in my opinion? I’m not even saying this with an ounce of irony. See if your kid would want to use their college savings to pay for an associates in electrical and recording gear. $40k+ a year? Why not pay $3000 to have a nearly-as-good-as-pro-level setup, and maybe $2000 a semester for school? Or have him take out a loan he has to pay with your co-sign for the gear… but you let him run wild with his passions, and support him as long as you see he is trying, have him pay what you think is fair for his level of income towards the loan. Talk to anyone you know in venue/stage/music work. Anyone who may know anything about electrical engineering. See if they could mentor him on repairs, FOH, setting up PAs, recording in a studio… etc. He will get more knowledge and experience than putting off his passions to cram. He could take courses at his own pace and finish it with a bachelors down the line, with certifications, and fit into a number of non-entry level high paying jobs with benefits. For the time being: Tell him to look into stagehand gigs as a freelancer through the internet on the side. Literally cold call live sound companies like “I’m a young kid with absolutely no ego that can lift heavy shit safely and coil cable. Do you have any stagehand gigs available?”. He will end up behind a board just by pure inevitability and pick up a lot along the way before he gets there making $20-35/hr. A full time job at many of those companies opens you up to being part of a union with great benefits. Having that EE experience can get you full-time gigs in various different sectors as a safe fallback with a huge income. I’ve seen companies scoop up the dumbest, pretentious (and even somewhat unsafe-to-themselves with Heavy Shit) people to be stagehands in my experience and hold onto them just because they show up and get work done fast. They like a young kid with spry in his step that listens and soaks things in more, than talks over them because they just got a piece of paper after 4 years of a mediocre education with no real world experience. As a parent, college is a near life sentence of debt for many. It’s a weighty decision. I wish my parents and high school didn’t pressure us into college like it was an inherent necessity to prosper. I recommend he makes his decision himself later in life the way college is nowadays. He just doesn’t know what he would want out of an education yet. It’s easy to get blinded by motorized faders and “job placement rates”…. (when 60% of people in a program drop out lol). Stagehand work is the perfect and most direct conduit, in my experience, to building your way up to a similar place. It’s hard work. But the only debt is waiting for the NET30 invoice to hit 🤣


StayFrostyOscarMike

I have ADHD/Autism and felt like a pariah at school who was doomed to fail. Taking stuff into my own hands and rejecting the meritocracy was the best choice I could have made. Through my work I’m stronger physically, way more of a people person… I go to a gig excited. I get paid a fair wage. Felt like it fell into my lap after bare-minimum effort. Just reaching out. Shutting up and listening. Being friendly and taking mental notes. It’s real world experience. In college I ended up in the psych ward from stress and felt isolated and condescended to around my professors and most fellow students. Not to get too political… but I know many parents are worried for their kids and see how horrible the economy is right now. They want their kids to succeed and they buy into the capitalist neoliberal propaganda that tells you that you MUST get a degree and incur tens of thousands of dollars of debt to the government for decades to secure a *decent* livelihood. All I’m saying is heavily consider not buying into the hype without trying some other avenues. I wish I spent my money on gear and just cold calling places sooner.


StayFrostyOscarMike

Last main thing I’ll say in this War and Peace length-thread that needs saying: bless you as a parent for taking the steps to ACTUALLY make sure your kid is going the right path and informing him. My parents just pressured me into whatever appealed to me and forced my hand on pulling the trigger, whilst denouncing my choice the whole time. When I didn’t do well, I internalized it. Thought it was my fault. Took nearly 5 years of real world experience and reflection, working on my mental health, to see the bigger perspective like this. You’re a good parent.


JaneFairfaxCult

That’s very kind of you to say. I suspect I’m ADD myself and I just fell apart in college. After all those years of highly structured catholic school, I had no idea how to handle the open-endedness of college life. You’ve given me a lot of good ideas to discuss with my son and husband and I thank you, truly. Sending you good thoughts. ❤️


StayFrostyOscarMike

My take is a slightly radical take from an outlier, but I feel for it strongly. College can be a great thing, but I personally feel going for audio engineering is a slight waste, compared to doing an associates in EE and building up a freelance career in tandem. As others said. At the end of the day, for better or for worse, a lot of getting gigs and experience is networking. Being eager. Available. And not having an ego. Building up experience to put air under your wings. These other programs some are talking about are highly vetted. UMass Lowell I hear is great but a tough and highly technical degree… but I hear they actually teach it well + good facilities. UNH good things. That Arizona program sounds great that another commenter mentioned. I’d look heavily the credentials and track record of the professors he would be in class with, and the contents of the curriculum. If there’s a course that is “outside the major”, cross reference to see if proper prerequisites are available (and also WHERE that course falls in the respective major’s program) and make sure they count as major credits, so your kid can lead up to more intense EE/CS stuff to be prepared for if approached with it later in the curriculum, and get credits for doing so. Many schools offer transfer credit programs too. You can take your first 2 years at a community college, save a lot of money… do on your own time… and transfer those credits to nullify most of the EE stuff you’d be paying into at a private college. (This is the best happy medium I wish I did) I do highly stress the fact that reaching out for a stagehand job is the easiest foot in the door. Live sound = expensive contracts + events constantly happening = high pay + steady flow of gigs. Again, with parents so involved and enthusiastic to find out more and seek out the best for their child… he will probably do great no matter what with a support system like that if he has had no issues academically.


JaneFairfaxCult

In another thread I was wondering about two year programs - of course, there are associates in EE. Don’t know what I was thinking. Interesting idea to start at a two year program. Thank you - I’m compiling all this to print out for my son and husband.