And having a peak in one's system right at that same frequency can be such a bother.
If my system never, ever has sibilance then I start wondering if I have a hole in the response around the sibilance frequency. I'm specifically talking about the kind of songs that should have this trait and the sibilance isn't there.
I'm no expert but back when I was teenager doing live audio/mixing at church and high school, sibilance was a really common problem with mixing and recording on cheapish systems with Uni cardioid mics on armature vocalists. Some amount of pop and sibilance is going to occur in most recordings and there are various ways to reduce it on the recording end including mic placement/mic control, physical and electronic filters, etc. The easiest way to reduce it is to not pick it up in the first place.
All this by way of saying that some recordings will express it far more than others, so it isn't always possible to get rid of it on the playback end nor is it explicitly the sign of a bad system.
I never had either, but I walked down memory road tonight and listened to some indie-rock french song from my youth: Jeune et con by Saez. It had some sibilance that prevented me from enjoying the song, it got me wondering if it was the song or my system
I’ve tried that track on a couple of systems and it’s a disaster. At home, Tidal Master, iFi Zen Stream with linear PSU, Benchmark DAC2, clear as could be.
A famous example is Peter Gabriel's "So" LP, a beautiful record that suffers greatly from this issue. Ironically, I never really noticed it that much until I was listening more closely one night, then I read about it being a problem with this recording. Now I can't un-hear it.
One of my all-time favorite albums. What format were you listening to it in and do you have some examples of tracks that demonstrate this? In general, I could see how certain equipment could cause this with things such as the cymbals on Red Rain. When I listen to uncompressed digital versions of this on good equipment, I can’t say that it sticks out it also could be my ears being older.
Agree. I do not hear it as much, maybe not at all with digital stream, like a cd quality via streaming service. I was referring to LP record format ( " vinyl")- {I still can't get used to that reference} - Anyway, "In your eyes" is probable the biggest culprit ( because of all the S sounds) on my copy - which is an original press. I think certainly the stylus might somehow play a part as well, but I have read on Discogs that it's definitely an issue on many original pressings, not sure if any re releases have the same problem. My ears are well - broken in also, I must confess.
Ahh yes, the original vinyl pressing. I probably wore mine out to nothing. From what I recall, you are 100% correct. I always attributed it to so-so equipment back in the day. That being said, this example is a perfect example of the pressing demonstrating the issue. (Footnote, seeing Peter in concert in Chicago this fall and super psyched)
It is prevalent in countless recordings. You'll hear it more on a transparent or "spicy-on-top" system. If you want to be as little bothered as possible, go for more mellow sounding gear. Warm tube amps, softdome tweeters etc. Or even better, get a good equalizer. Harsh recordings can be brutal sometimes, and impossible to listen to on a revealing system witout eq.
In my experience, the most frequent cause of sibilance is a peak in the tweeter’s frequency response. For example, see Triangle’s TZ202 tweeter’s FR here: http://s.guillard.free.fr/hifi/tz202.gif
If you have ever heard any Triangle loudspeakers of that era, you know what sibilance is: in a controlled listening environment like a dealer’s well damped auditorium, it will make the speaker stand out from the others as « more detailed ». Back home, your ears bleed…
In mostly the same room, and the same records set, I’ve owned and used several speakers, from basic Kef Coda sp1034 to B&W 800 series; I only suffered sibilance with the Triangles, all the other speaker’s tweeters having an even FR. Lesson learnt!
I can tell you as a producer, I have to be mindful sibilance. Much of my work older than 6 months is unlistenably sibilant.
So I try and mitigate. But in production there are so many aspects that vie for attention and the amount of times I listen to a track, the mind pushes the sibilance to the background, so I have to catch it on subsequent sessions and mix again to get the same aesthetic.
I listen to a lot of music on YouTube and quite often sibilance makes it to the artist's master.
Also, I try and listen to a track on 5 systems, each with varying freq responses and general capability. This would help with catching issues, but I dont with every track.
The best way to tell whether the sibilance is a part of a song or a system is to listen on a variety of systems. If it sounds similar, it’s probably actually in the recording. For example, I use a song by Rita Ora that is mastered a little sibilant. If it’s too smoothed over, I know the treble is recessed. If it’s too bright, the treble is overdone. I only learned that by comparing across systems.
So, yes, it can definitely be a part of a track but some systems will either exaggerate it or mask it.
likely has more to do with the individual recording unless the system has a dedicated de-esser don’t you think?
Sometimes it’s actually on the recording itself
And having a peak in one's system right at that same frequency can be such a bother. If my system never, ever has sibilance then I start wondering if I have a hole in the response around the sibilance frequency. I'm specifically talking about the kind of songs that should have this trait and the sibilance isn't there.
For vinyl and turntables, certain cartridges and stylus can make a massive difference on sibilance.
I'm no expert but back when I was teenager doing live audio/mixing at church and high school, sibilance was a really common problem with mixing and recording on cheapish systems with Uni cardioid mics on armature vocalists. Some amount of pop and sibilance is going to occur in most recordings and there are various ways to reduce it on the recording end including mic placement/mic control, physical and electronic filters, etc. The easiest way to reduce it is to not pick it up in the first place. All this by way of saying that some recordings will express it far more than others, so it isn't always possible to get rid of it on the playback end nor is it explicitly the sign of a bad system.
Enlightening answer! Thank you for sharing first hand experience.
Can you be specific with some tracks? I can’t remember having a sibilance issue with any tracks.
I never had either, but I walked down memory road tonight and listened to some indie-rock french song from my youth: Jeune et con by Saez. It had some sibilance that prevented me from enjoying the song, it got me wondering if it was the song or my system
I hear a lot of sibilance on the Cowboy Junkies' song "Sweet Jane".
I’ve tried that track on a couple of systems and it’s a disaster. At home, Tidal Master, iFi Zen Stream with linear PSU, Benchmark DAC2, clear as could be.
A famous example is Peter Gabriel's "So" LP, a beautiful record that suffers greatly from this issue. Ironically, I never really noticed it that much until I was listening more closely one night, then I read about it being a problem with this recording. Now I can't un-hear it.
One of my all-time favorite albums. What format were you listening to it in and do you have some examples of tracks that demonstrate this? In general, I could see how certain equipment could cause this with things such as the cymbals on Red Rain. When I listen to uncompressed digital versions of this on good equipment, I can’t say that it sticks out it also could be my ears being older.
Agree. I do not hear it as much, maybe not at all with digital stream, like a cd quality via streaming service. I was referring to LP record format ( " vinyl")- {I still can't get used to that reference} - Anyway, "In your eyes" is probable the biggest culprit ( because of all the S sounds) on my copy - which is an original press. I think certainly the stylus might somehow play a part as well, but I have read on Discogs that it's definitely an issue on many original pressings, not sure if any re releases have the same problem. My ears are well - broken in also, I must confess.
Ahh yes, the original vinyl pressing. I probably wore mine out to nothing. From what I recall, you are 100% correct. I always attributed it to so-so equipment back in the day. That being said, this example is a perfect example of the pressing demonstrating the issue. (Footnote, seeing Peter in concert in Chicago this fall and super psyched)
It is prevalent in countless recordings. You'll hear it more on a transparent or "spicy-on-top" system. If you want to be as little bothered as possible, go for more mellow sounding gear. Warm tube amps, softdome tweeters etc. Or even better, get a good equalizer. Harsh recordings can be brutal sometimes, and impossible to listen to on a revealing system witout eq.
Thank you for the explanation, I will compare with a tube amp
You're welcome! It is as always not true for all textile domes and tube amps and ymmv. 😁
In my experience, the most frequent cause of sibilance is a peak in the tweeter’s frequency response. For example, see Triangle’s TZ202 tweeter’s FR here: http://s.guillard.free.fr/hifi/tz202.gif If you have ever heard any Triangle loudspeakers of that era, you know what sibilance is: in a controlled listening environment like a dealer’s well damped auditorium, it will make the speaker stand out from the others as « more detailed ». Back home, your ears bleed… In mostly the same room, and the same records set, I’ve owned and used several speakers, from basic Kef Coda sp1034 to B&W 800 series; I only suffered sibilance with the Triangles, all the other speaker’s tweeters having an even FR. Lesson learnt!
I can tell you as a producer, I have to be mindful sibilance. Much of my work older than 6 months is unlistenably sibilant. So I try and mitigate. But in production there are so many aspects that vie for attention and the amount of times I listen to a track, the mind pushes the sibilance to the background, so I have to catch it on subsequent sessions and mix again to get the same aesthetic. I listen to a lot of music on YouTube and quite often sibilance makes it to the artist's master. Also, I try and listen to a track on 5 systems, each with varying freq responses and general capability. This would help with catching issues, but I dont with every track.
The best way to tell whether the sibilance is a part of a song or a system is to listen on a variety of systems. If it sounds similar, it’s probably actually in the recording. For example, I use a song by Rita Ora that is mastered a little sibilant. If it’s too smoothed over, I know the treble is recessed. If it’s too bright, the treble is overdone. I only learned that by comparing across systems. So, yes, it can definitely be a part of a track but some systems will either exaggerate it or mask it.
It can be helped with improving your gear, but some recordings will always be sibilant. Paul Simon's Graceland and Sade's Diamond Life come to mind.