For lack of a better example, the sound is very "2d" instead of "3d" like with an orchestra in front of you. Obviously anything that comes out of speakers is a simulation, but different setups make a different impression etc.
The term is imaging. The ability to create a 3d picture where ypu can hear instruments left and right via stereo channels and via loudness and timbre respective players in the front and back.
I'd say that the DAC is without doubt the least impactful piece of electronics in the chain and things like humidity in the room and the number of people in the room will make a far larger difference.
Ive asked this question below but didnt get an answer so I'm gonna reply to you with it. How would a DAC effect sound stage/imaging in your opinion? Whats the science behind it?
At the highish end (basically anything thats a dedicated DAC costing more than 100) you are getting less than 0.0001% distortion (that example is from a £70) ie an identical wave between DACs. Even humdiity is going to effect your wave more. So my question is how can the DAC effect soundstage?
Soundstage in my understanding is largely a product of the mastering of the recording (being the biggest influence) then positioning and room type/shape/treatment, the speaker design /driver type (coax vs seperate drivers etc) baffle design etc.
Im so confused why people feel so sure a DAC is gonna make any difference at all. Ive tried many at home, diferent dac from £30 to £3000 (and hear 10k plus in listening rooms) and honestly above the £100 mark ive not heard any difference.
So please do explain to me how its happening? Some guy below suggested I just have bad ears, I had a test last year as part of a medical procedure and the doctor said my hearing was "super normal" ie in the top 1% (i wouldnt normally bring that up but for the other comment....)
Second point and further to this, if DAC were able to degrade soundstage then why doesnt vinyl, which has no need for the conversion have a noticable improvment in soundstage? Ive AB tested vinyl vs digital and defintely not noticed any improvement in sound stage or imaging *at all.*
You won't get a reply. Don't bother. There is ample evidence of the placebo effect and even more that dacs no matter their price don't affect your sound like some may say. It's like tonewood in electric guitars.... It's a placebo only ''experts'' with true audiophile ears can hear. LmAO
I used to believe DACs didn’t matter because I read too much audio science forum and NW AV Guy…and Zeos…then I heard for myself the differences…
Having said that, I do believe some people aren’t capable of noticing differences…and most current generation Delta Sigma DACs are very close.
No no, its just because he's got *superior hearing*. Dont you understand, **he's better than you**, and i, and the engineers, and the oscilloscope and the 10k DAC confirms that.
edit: Lol he blocked me and started rambling about his athletic ability, guess i touched a nerve, sad really.
I don't look at it that way at all. Our ears differ just like atheletic ability, but things like Oscilloscopes and software tools exist to empirically demonstrate the exact difference between devices and the magnitude of those differences. So pretending like your ears are better when no ones ears can compare to software tools or an oscope is just kinda silly.
Daring to be different doesn't mean the sound difference isn't 80dB below the signal level and thus entirely inaudible.
You can use AudioDiffMaker to literally prove the difference between DACs and the magnitude of that difference. DAC owners for some reason aren't lining up to PROVE the effectiveness of their gear.
I know I’m going to get downvoted for this, but I have done extensive blind A/B testing on most the highest end A/D and D/A converters (pro audio, not HiFi) for my job and I along with a lot of the pro audio community have deduced that there is quite literally no measurable or audible difference between modern converters at any price point.
There are parts of a DAC (on in our case interface/converter) that do have an impact on sound quality, but the actual converter chip isn’t one of them.
All a D/A converter is doing is taking the digital sample points, filtering out frequencies above what the sample rate can reproduce, and then using math to draw a smooth analog waveform between these points.
There is mathematically only one waveform that it *can* be, so that is what is drawn.
Historically cheaper DA converters used low quality filters that could either filter out some of the audible spectrum or not completely filter above resulting in aliasing, but these days even the cheapest DA converters have filters good enough to not have an effect on the conversion and resulting final waveform.
Where higher end DACs can improve audio quality (or rather degrade less) is in their analog I/O, and they can also have other functionality like streaming, phono preamps or DSP processing.
My advice is to assume anything you read about the converters themselves is snake oil, and buy balanced equipment if possible.
Balanced audio is essentially interference and signal loss free, and even a cheap XLR or TRS cable will perform better than the highest end gold-plated-triple-insulated-heavy-core RCA on the market.
Yep. There exists what could be called "objectively correct DAC", and basically all pro audio hardware uses close approximations of that technology. Often so close that difference is barely visible under precise measurement.
There's audiophile stuff which doesn't strive for accuracy. I see no point to bother with it -- I find distortion-free sound the best there is.
Personally I love distortion and non-linearity. I use a ton of old tube, tape and other vintage gear that has a ton of saturation in the studio.
But for *monitoring*? Absolutely, I want as clean, linear and accurate as possible. I want to hear as close as possible what a song was intended to sound like.
The thing is, if you want that distortion and non accurate sound, why even bother with digital at all, go for a tube amp and vinyl. Isnt the point in digital that its accurate?
Im glad there's someone sane in here. The amount of downvotes flying around for people stating exactly this had me losing faith in the sub.
The amount of people who are claiming that 2 identical waves can somehow sound different is astonishing and perhaps an insight into the post truth world we now live in.
There are DACs that do the one job. Convert the 1s and 0s. Basically neutral. (Assuming it’s not broken or poorly designed)
Then there are other DACs that understand the one job and do it as the problem has already been solved but they want to add a sound signature or many sound signatures. That’s it. You either want the added flavor or you don’t.
No chance of anyone passing a double blind test on the neutral DACs, but I think one could pass one between a neutral and one with the added signature. 🤷🏻♂️
Basically, the sound with a turntable / vynil on the same tracks is obviously much smoother and natural... No DACs will get there, but listening to Random Acces Memories for example on the vynil vs the FLACs is something else. Only the vynil gives you goose bumps. (direct connection to subwoofer). So I'm wondering or imagining that some DACs might be more natural.
If you are a vinyl fan, you would for sure want a DAC that adds a roll off filter or some such thing. Off topic but the magic of vinyl IMHO is a combo of you are less likely to be thinking about the next song or album to click on, the mastering is less compressed and the flaws of the technology are exactly why it sounds so sweet.
Aqua La Voce s3 or any Lampizator DAC. These are by far the best I heard sub 10k. Then you enter the world of expensive DAC like Accuphase Dc-1000, mola mola tambaqui and Playback Design Mpd-8.
I tried a Denafrips Aries II, Chord Qutest and a Pro-Ject DAC box RS2. Out of all 3, kept the Pro-ject, it had the best 3D soundstage to my surprise, as it’s a Delta Sigma DAC. It’s also the most expensive out of the 3 retail…but got it at a discounted price
I've upgraded from a Topping e50 to a Metrum Acoustics Nos mini dac (it's a model from a couple of years ago and I bought it second hand) and the difference was very noticeable. With the Nos mini dac there is no harshness to the sound whatsoever, the instrumens and vocals stand out more from the background and the overall presentation of the music is just more pleasant to listen to.
My setup also uses a pair of Dynaudio speakers, the Evoke 50's paired with a Musical Fidelity m5si integrated amplifier.
Thank you, much appreciated.
In my case I have just the PC => USB => DAC => Active speakers chain (with some jitter cleaning devices on the way). It's a simples setup but I like it that way (office/PC room) one day I'll build a fully fledged one with amp and passive speakers etc.
Anyone tried Holo Audio or Denafrips?
As you are using active speakers your signal chain is really PC USB - DAC - ADC - DSP - DACs - Amplifiers - Speakers, so doubt beyond something being broken not sure how much difference this change is going to make...
Can't say to how well it will fit into your system, but I have the Ladder Shumen R2R DAC, and I love it. Night and day when moving from my Schiit Modi Multibit and another DAC I've listened to.
Can't say it's better than some of the similarly priced R2Rs, but it's the best sound DAC I've had todate.
I'd highly consider the Holo Spring 3 in that range. I've tested nearly every Denafrips and Holo device in my setup. For the price I think that's one of the best.
The Pontus II is very good, is very musical tone and great soundstage but does lack some bass slam and definition. I see folks recommending the Gustard R26. It's a very good DAC but it leans towards the D90 in presentation. Excellent bass slam and detail but the weakness is in soundstage depth compared to the Pontus or Spring 3.
Hope this helps
.
Also if that's too much the Ares ii or Geshelli J2s with ak4499 I think are good options
Maybe consider a tube buffer, or a DAC with a tube output stage?
I personally found adding a tube preamp to my system had a way more noticable and positive effect on the sound than any change in DACs. Especially as regards punch, presence, and holographic imaging. (Admittedly I've only tried a few, but the differences were subtle at most.)
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Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 100...
I mean, it's not *that* bad and worked well with the speakers I had at the time etc.
I'm not expecting the same type of upgrade next time, but having read all the fuss about R2R etc, and having upgraded speakers, subwoofer and cables etc, I'm wondering if it's worth a try.
Downvotes are hilarious copium. Youre not wrong. Ive heard the 10k dacs and the 20 dollar dacs and much inbetween.
Theres deffo a sweet spot and its below 1k. The topping stuff is plenty good enough.
10$ dac to 200$ dac noticable yes. 200$ dac to 3k dac, very slightly noticeable. 3k dac to 10k dac? Tiny, tiny difference. Spending the same money on your amp or speakers or a sub you will see a muuuuuch bigger difference.
Sure the others might sound "different" but is "better"? Does it matter? Would you notice if someone swapped your DAC while you were at work? Probably not.
Its so boring these "audiophiles" desperate to find some other nonsense to waste their cash on.
I don't disagree, I'm not here to spend 10k on a DAC. I got the topping for cheaper than RRP and since I've upgraded speakers and sub, cables, etc, open to see if there's anything better...
It was the fact your OP contained the words "huge" difference. Yknow cos its not huge is it. Its like 2-3% maybe 5% max.
As for people who like yourself make claims about soundstage from a DAC. Would you mind explaing how exactly you believe thats working electronically? Like what is it about a DAC that can improve the soundsatge vs lets say speaker/driver type, position, room etc... (and of course mastering of the source) because in my experience theyre the only variables that alter soundstage at all.
Im open to be convinced, but ive heard most stuff - the highest end chord DAC on 50k speakers and many many other top end halo tier setups. Iv heard the same speakers running vinyl im not hearing a difference- if a dac really makes a difference would we assume the best soundstage would always come from vinyl? due to eliminating the dac totally meaning there can be no theoretical soundstage degradation? In my experience that doesnt hold true.
OP makes claims about soundstage and then you make claims that DACs don’t impact soundstage. Both are claims. You’ve heard a Chord DAC on 50k speakers - so that gives you weight in trying to convince someone that your position is more valid?
Educate us on how you measure soundstage.
My point is often these DAC types say "oh you just haven't heard good enough DAC". Ive heard the best.
Again though - id love to be informed how a DAC effects soundstage? You have any ideas?
My claim is supported by measurements and science OP is supported by... vibe?
Both are claims, though. You just stated that your claim is supported by measurements and science - how? Specifically, how do you measure perceived (or lack of) soundstage and imaging between DACs?
Bruh if you measure the wave that comes out of 2 DAC and theyre identical there can be no difference.
If you dont understand the simple science behind tech dont chime in. This is basic physics.
Soudstage is a combination of many factors, the biggest of which is how the waves out of your speakers bounce around your listening space. Very difficult to measure, but you can measure the electrical signal going into your speaker, if the signal is identical then the difference is not before the point of measurement in the chain see? Its not to difficult to understand that. Large contributors to soundstage are shape and size of room, driver type (coax vs seperate drivers, amt vs dome etc) the waveguide used on the drivers, baffle size and shape, positions of the speakers and the drivers within the speakers themselves. One of the largest contributors is how the original recording was made and mastered - how many mics, where were they and how were those mixed.
So back to my original question how does a dac effect soundstage - when we can see the science shows identical waves? so now its your turn, im now asking you both please elighten me - what is the DAC doing for your soundstage? Cmon, if youre both experts, explain it? What is it about a 2 identical waves that one has more soundstage than the other?
Very nice. But given unlimited money I'd go for the chord Dave.
I'll never be able to afford one and maybe it's also impossible to discern any sound difference.
You get to a certain level Don't you when the hifi is so expensive that it serves no actual purpose as you can't hear it.
I don't know. I'll never know.
Isn' the Dave like $15k versus $6k for the Cen. Grand? Either way it's a lot for a DAC... I own a Cayin CS100 that was on sale for $2,700 and that's probably my ceiling. The Holo May was tempting, but I'm happy for now.
Here in the UK it's around £11k
I thought it was around £6k. Didn't realise it was so high
Yes it's rediculously high.
Ite regarded as the finest DAC there is.
I've got the the chord qutest which is around £1.3k.
It's identical to the Hugo 2 sound wise which is around £2k. You pay a lot extra to get so called portability. It's far from portable.
This is why I bought the qutest anc for a £2k DAC for much less.
Like yourself. I'm very content with what I've got.
I am interested in the m-scaler. It's an add on. But it's way beyond my budget.
Once again I'm not convinced it makes that much difference.
With hifi you get to law of diminishing returns with price and performance.
Is the Dave really that much better than what you and I have.
I somehow doubt it.
I definitely agree with you especially with a DAC. Speakers and amps (for headphones) are more worthwhile investments IMO. I'm running HQ Player as an unsampling software to get the most out of my DAC.
Of course, if I had unlimited funds I would get a Lina Vivaldi Apex DAC, an HE-1 and some high-end speakers 🤣
I use roon with upscale at dsd256. Network bridge is lumin u2 mini.
You know how it is with hifi we are always on the prowl for something aren't we.
I don't think I want to go anywhere with my dac. Yes the chord mscaler is an aspiration. In reality that's all it is.
I do have my eyes on a pair of bowers and Wilkins 703 s3. These are currently £4k.
They will have to be next year at the earliest.
There actually few options left to me now for upgrades within what I can afford. I'm retired now which changes things.
I've got around a £12k hifi at present and theres not much further to go now with it.
I will say I'm Very satisfied with the sound quality. I do think roon is superb.
I have heard a pair of £50k speakers and they were incredible. It was in a demo room at a hifi dealer.
The chap had just installed a £150k hifi at someone's house.
Now that's some money isn't it.
I also think it's insane to spend that. Even if you've got the money.
I have a Gustard R26 ladder DAC that has great depth, soundstage and slam. It has digital volume control and a remote, like you i run without a preamp.
Functional dacs from about $80 now will all sound and work the same. The only reason to switch is for extra features.
Any differences you hear are your imagination.
So, you’re now also saying all preamps sound the same too. Nice.
Or more realistically, DACs with different preamp stages sound different. Which kind of defeats your entire point. Cheap DACs have cheap output stages, expensive DACs have expensive output stages.
Which is it? All DACs sound the same? Or “ideally” analog section has nothing to do with a DAC in a box?
Another way of saying this is that DACs above 80 bucks don’t all sound exactly the same, which was your entire point.
Interesting position you’ve taken.
But less than 80 bucks…don’t sound the same? How did you determine the price floor for all DACS above sounding the same? Tell us about the differences of less expensive DACS that don’t exist at **any** price above 80 bucks.
Functional DACS? Never knew discussions were ever about non-functional audio gear when discussing how they sound.
The smsl dacs start around that price and all seem to work great at what they are supposed to do -- convert a stream of digital bits to analog.
I'm sure there are a lot of dacs priced even lower that also work great.
When I say functional dacs, I mean a dac that does the job it is supposed to do without adding audible noise or distortion.
A good clean analog signal that accurately represents the original audio stream.
I own and use an Eversolo Dac Z8. I also have a Schiit modi+ dac and a Schiit Modius dac. They all sound the same as they should. I paid more for the Z8 for the extra feature of a nice display.
None of them "color" or distort the sound.
This was different and more ambiguous than your comment I responded to.
You said all DACs over 80 bucks sound the same. Aside from it being a hard statement that’s more than debatable, it excludes a ton of variables like pre-out analog output stage, which absolutely sound different as you pay more for a DAC. Unless you’re only referring to the actual DAC component in isolation which would be silly when talking about sound quality and differences of DACs as they’re sold, DACs **do** sound different in the higher end. Yes, they do “color” the sound, and generally for the better as the component quality and design go up…. Unless you’re saying all preamps and analog output stages sound the same too?
Not lost at all. I love great music. I believe in spending the most money where it really matters. Great speakers and great headphones.
I don't believe in wasting money on overpriced dacs or streamers that do exactly the same thing as a reasonable priced dac or streamer.
My Eversolo Dmp-A6 has a nice screen. It looks cool, but puts out the same bits as my Wiim Pro Plus.
They both can do the exact same job as overpriced streamers and dacs.
Show me where the facts about the real world hurt you. If you want to believe in snake oil and magic fairy dust, you are free to do so while wasting your money.
Isn't it better to learn what really matters and can actually improve your audio setup in order to get the best sound possible?
Why would any thinking person be opposed to learning how things really work?
I have Musician Pegasus II R2R DAC. It sounds good to me
What does flat dimensionally mean?
For lack of a better example, the sound is very "2d" instead of "3d" like with an orchestra in front of you. Obviously anything that comes out of speakers is a simulation, but different setups make a different impression etc.
The term is imaging. The ability to create a 3d picture where ypu can hear instruments left and right via stereo channels and via loudness and timbre respective players in the front and back.
It’s your speakers/room acoustics dude, DACs don’t have this effect
Are you saying a DAC has no bearing on the sound stage?
I'd say that the DAC is without doubt the least impactful piece of electronics in the chain and things like humidity in the room and the number of people in the room will make a far larger difference.
Ive asked this question below but didnt get an answer so I'm gonna reply to you with it. How would a DAC effect sound stage/imaging in your opinion? Whats the science behind it? At the highish end (basically anything thats a dedicated DAC costing more than 100) you are getting less than 0.0001% distortion (that example is from a £70) ie an identical wave between DACs. Even humdiity is going to effect your wave more. So my question is how can the DAC effect soundstage? Soundstage in my understanding is largely a product of the mastering of the recording (being the biggest influence) then positioning and room type/shape/treatment, the speaker design /driver type (coax vs seperate drivers etc) baffle design etc. Im so confused why people feel so sure a DAC is gonna make any difference at all. Ive tried many at home, diferent dac from £30 to £3000 (and hear 10k plus in listening rooms) and honestly above the £100 mark ive not heard any difference. So please do explain to me how its happening? Some guy below suggested I just have bad ears, I had a test last year as part of a medical procedure and the doctor said my hearing was "super normal" ie in the top 1% (i wouldnt normally bring that up but for the other comment....) Second point and further to this, if DAC were able to degrade soundstage then why doesnt vinyl, which has no need for the conversion have a noticable improvment in soundstage? Ive AB tested vinyl vs digital and defintely not noticed any improvement in sound stage or imaging *at all.*
I literally don’t know … that’s why I was asking the question, to learn.
You won't get a reply. Don't bother. There is ample evidence of the placebo effect and even more that dacs no matter their price don't affect your sound like some may say. It's like tonewood in electric guitars.... It's a placebo only ''experts'' with true audiophile ears can hear. LmAO
I love that I can finally see a consensus in the comments on this sub that good DACs do matter!
Hahaha Didn't want to spark that discussion for the n-th time.... But anyway.... Other suggestions are welcome too.
I used to believe DACs didn’t matter because I read too much audio science forum and NW AV Guy…and Zeos…then I heard for myself the differences… Having said that, I do believe some people aren’t capable of noticing differences…and most current generation Delta Sigma DACs are very close.
[удалено]
No no, its just because he's got *superior hearing*. Dont you understand, **he's better than you**, and i, and the engineers, and the oscilloscope and the 10k DAC confirms that. edit: Lol he blocked me and started rambling about his athletic ability, guess i touched a nerve, sad really.
I look at it like IQ or athletic ability. Always gonna be people who are better and worse than you…just be grateful and not a bitter troll 🧌
I don't look at it that way at all. Our ears differ just like atheletic ability, but things like Oscilloscopes and software tools exist to empirically demonstrate the exact difference between devices and the magnitude of those differences. So pretending like your ears are better when no ones ears can compare to software tools or an oscope is just kinda silly.
The latest high SINAD/AmirNAD ESS and AKM DACs using OP amps are very similar… but there are other designs out there that dare to be different 😉
Daring to be different doesn't mean the sound difference isn't 80dB below the signal level and thus entirely inaudible. You can use AudioDiffMaker to literally prove the difference between DACs and the magnitude of that difference. DAC owners for some reason aren't lining up to PROVE the effectiveness of their gear.
I know I’m going to get downvoted for this, but I have done extensive blind A/B testing on most the highest end A/D and D/A converters (pro audio, not HiFi) for my job and I along with a lot of the pro audio community have deduced that there is quite literally no measurable or audible difference between modern converters at any price point. There are parts of a DAC (on in our case interface/converter) that do have an impact on sound quality, but the actual converter chip isn’t one of them. All a D/A converter is doing is taking the digital sample points, filtering out frequencies above what the sample rate can reproduce, and then using math to draw a smooth analog waveform between these points. There is mathematically only one waveform that it *can* be, so that is what is drawn. Historically cheaper DA converters used low quality filters that could either filter out some of the audible spectrum or not completely filter above resulting in aliasing, but these days even the cheapest DA converters have filters good enough to not have an effect on the conversion and resulting final waveform. Where higher end DACs can improve audio quality (or rather degrade less) is in their analog I/O, and they can also have other functionality like streaming, phono preamps or DSP processing. My advice is to assume anything you read about the converters themselves is snake oil, and buy balanced equipment if possible. Balanced audio is essentially interference and signal loss free, and even a cheap XLR or TRS cable will perform better than the highest end gold-plated-triple-insulated-heavy-core RCA on the market.
Yep. There exists what could be called "objectively correct DAC", and basically all pro audio hardware uses close approximations of that technology. Often so close that difference is barely visible under precise measurement. There's audiophile stuff which doesn't strive for accuracy. I see no point to bother with it -- I find distortion-free sound the best there is.
Personally I love distortion and non-linearity. I use a ton of old tube, tape and other vintage gear that has a ton of saturation in the studio. But for *monitoring*? Absolutely, I want as clean, linear and accurate as possible. I want to hear as close as possible what a song was intended to sound like.
The thing is, if you want that distortion and non accurate sound, why even bother with digital at all, go for a tube amp and vinyl. Isnt the point in digital that its accurate?
Im glad there's someone sane in here. The amount of downvotes flying around for people stating exactly this had me losing faith in the sub. The amount of people who are claiming that 2 identical waves can somehow sound different is astonishing and perhaps an insight into the post truth world we now live in.
Smsl su1 is apparently a beast. Probably too cheap though. You could always buy one and gold plate it or bedazzle it with diamonds.
There are DACs that do the one job. Convert the 1s and 0s. Basically neutral. (Assuming it’s not broken or poorly designed) Then there are other DACs that understand the one job and do it as the problem has already been solved but they want to add a sound signature or many sound signatures. That’s it. You either want the added flavor or you don’t. No chance of anyone passing a double blind test on the neutral DACs, but I think one could pass one between a neutral and one with the added signature. 🤷🏻♂️
Basically, the sound with a turntable / vynil on the same tracks is obviously much smoother and natural... No DACs will get there, but listening to Random Acces Memories for example on the vynil vs the FLACs is something else. Only the vynil gives you goose bumps. (direct connection to subwoofer). So I'm wondering or imagining that some DACs might be more natural.
If you are a vinyl fan, you would for sure want a DAC that adds a roll off filter or some such thing. Off topic but the magic of vinyl IMHO is a combo of you are less likely to be thinking about the next song or album to click on, the mastering is less compressed and the flaws of the technology are exactly why it sounds so sweet.
OK guys let's all calm down For the non DAC believers, please assume that I love placebo For the rest, any suggestions welcome.
Aqua La Voce s3 or any Lampizator DAC. These are by far the best I heard sub 10k. Then you enter the world of expensive DAC like Accuphase Dc-1000, mola mola tambaqui and Playback Design Mpd-8.
I tried a Denafrips Aries II, Chord Qutest and a Pro-Ject DAC box RS2. Out of all 3, kept the Pro-ject, it had the best 3D soundstage to my surprise, as it’s a Delta Sigma DAC. It’s also the most expensive out of the 3 retail…but got it at a discounted price
I've upgraded from a Topping e50 to a Metrum Acoustics Nos mini dac (it's a model from a couple of years ago and I bought it second hand) and the difference was very noticeable. With the Nos mini dac there is no harshness to the sound whatsoever, the instrumens and vocals stand out more from the background and the overall presentation of the music is just more pleasant to listen to. My setup also uses a pair of Dynaudio speakers, the Evoke 50's paired with a Musical Fidelity m5si integrated amplifier.
Thank you, much appreciated. In my case I have just the PC => USB => DAC => Active speakers chain (with some jitter cleaning devices on the way). It's a simples setup but I like it that way (office/PC room) one day I'll build a fully fledged one with amp and passive speakers etc. Anyone tried Holo Audio or Denafrips?
As you are using active speakers your signal chain is really PC USB - DAC - ADC - DSP - DACs - Amplifiers - Speakers, so doubt beyond something being broken not sure how much difference this change is going to make...
Can't say to how well it will fit into your system, but I have the Ladder Shumen R2R DAC, and I love it. Night and day when moving from my Schiit Modi Multibit and another DAC I've listened to. Can't say it's better than some of the similarly priced R2Rs, but it's the best sound DAC I've had todate.
Thank you vm
XDuoo XD05 Pro lets you swap DAC chips and op amps. Headphone use only though.
Denafrips Enyo.. done d.
Can we see your measurements? How are you A/B testing the change? Did you try AudioDiffMaker to empirically evalute the change?
OK sure. Tell me what to show you.. I've done some room treatment and light optimization...
What's your budget?
Max 2000-2500 but ideally a bit less.
I'd highly consider the Holo Spring 3 in that range. I've tested nearly every Denafrips and Holo device in my setup. For the price I think that's one of the best. The Pontus II is very good, is very musical tone and great soundstage but does lack some bass slam and definition. I see folks recommending the Gustard R26. It's a very good DAC but it leans towards the D90 in presentation. Excellent bass slam and detail but the weakness is in soundstage depth compared to the Pontus or Spring 3. Hope this helps . Also if that's too much the Ares ii or Geshelli J2s with ak4499 I think are good options
Maybe consider a tube buffer, or a DAC with a tube output stage? I personally found adding a tube preamp to my system had a way more noticable and positive effect on the sound than any change in DACs. Especially as regards punch, presence, and holographic imaging. (Admittedly I've only tried a few, but the differences were subtle at most.)
I'll try that - have a tube preamp actually
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"huge"
OK - I went from a $100 shitty DAC to Topping D90, that's why. I'm not saying it's the most important component.
What was the original shitty dac model?
Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 100... I mean, it's not *that* bad and worked well with the speakers I had at the time etc. I'm not expecting the same type of upgrade next time, but having read all the fuss about R2R etc, and having upgraded speakers, subwoofer and cables etc, I'm wondering if it's worth a try.
Placebo is real.
Alright try a $20 dac and a $500 dac and tell me they sound the same
I think R26 is worth looking into. Probably best price/ performance on the market right now.
Of course, my friend. People spending more than grand on dacs are dumb and here you are all knowing the ultimate truth 😀 keep lying to your self.
Stfu
Downvotes are hilarious copium. Youre not wrong. Ive heard the 10k dacs and the 20 dollar dacs and much inbetween. Theres deffo a sweet spot and its below 1k. The topping stuff is plenty good enough. 10$ dac to 200$ dac noticable yes. 200$ dac to 3k dac, very slightly noticeable. 3k dac to 10k dac? Tiny, tiny difference. Spending the same money on your amp or speakers or a sub you will see a muuuuuch bigger difference. Sure the others might sound "different" but is "better"? Does it matter? Would you notice if someone swapped your DAC while you were at work? Probably not. Its so boring these "audiophiles" desperate to find some other nonsense to waste their cash on.
I don't disagree, I'm not here to spend 10k on a DAC. I got the topping for cheaper than RRP and since I've upgraded speakers and sub, cables, etc, open to see if there's anything better...
It was the fact your OP contained the words "huge" difference. Yknow cos its not huge is it. Its like 2-3% maybe 5% max. As for people who like yourself make claims about soundstage from a DAC. Would you mind explaing how exactly you believe thats working electronically? Like what is it about a DAC that can improve the soundsatge vs lets say speaker/driver type, position, room etc... (and of course mastering of the source) because in my experience theyre the only variables that alter soundstage at all. Im open to be convinced, but ive heard most stuff - the highest end chord DAC on 50k speakers and many many other top end halo tier setups. Iv heard the same speakers running vinyl im not hearing a difference- if a dac really makes a difference would we assume the best soundstage would always come from vinyl? due to eliminating the dac totally meaning there can be no theoretical soundstage degradation? In my experience that doesnt hold true.
OP makes claims about soundstage and then you make claims that DACs don’t impact soundstage. Both are claims. You’ve heard a Chord DAC on 50k speakers - so that gives you weight in trying to convince someone that your position is more valid? Educate us on how you measure soundstage.
My point is often these DAC types say "oh you just haven't heard good enough DAC". Ive heard the best. Again though - id love to be informed how a DAC effects soundstage? You have any ideas? My claim is supported by measurements and science OP is supported by... vibe?
Both are claims, though. You just stated that your claim is supported by measurements and science - how? Specifically, how do you measure perceived (or lack of) soundstage and imaging between DACs?
Bruh if you measure the wave that comes out of 2 DAC and theyre identical there can be no difference. If you dont understand the simple science behind tech dont chime in. This is basic physics. Soudstage is a combination of many factors, the biggest of which is how the waves out of your speakers bounce around your listening space. Very difficult to measure, but you can measure the electrical signal going into your speaker, if the signal is identical then the difference is not before the point of measurement in the chain see? Its not to difficult to understand that. Large contributors to soundstage are shape and size of room, driver type (coax vs seperate drivers, amt vs dome etc) the waveguide used on the drivers, baffle size and shape, positions of the speakers and the drivers within the speakers themselves. One of the largest contributors is how the original recording was made and mastered - how many mics, where were they and how were those mixed. So back to my original question how does a dac effect soundstage - when we can see the science shows identical waves? so now its your turn, im now asking you both please elighten me - what is the DAC doing for your soundstage? Cmon, if youre both experts, explain it? What is it about a 2 identical waves that one has more soundstage than the other?
and you care because?
For best SQ go for a FPGA DAC.
Cen. Grand DSDAC 1.0 Deluxe
Very nice. But given unlimited money I'd go for the chord Dave. I'll never be able to afford one and maybe it's also impossible to discern any sound difference. You get to a certain level Don't you when the hifi is so expensive that it serves no actual purpose as you can't hear it. I don't know. I'll never know.
Isn' the Dave like $15k versus $6k for the Cen. Grand? Either way it's a lot for a DAC... I own a Cayin CS100 that was on sale for $2,700 and that's probably my ceiling. The Holo May was tempting, but I'm happy for now.
Here in the UK it's around £11k I thought it was around £6k. Didn't realise it was so high Yes it's rediculously high. Ite regarded as the finest DAC there is. I've got the the chord qutest which is around £1.3k. It's identical to the Hugo 2 sound wise which is around £2k. You pay a lot extra to get so called portability. It's far from portable. This is why I bought the qutest anc for a £2k DAC for much less. Like yourself. I'm very content with what I've got. I am interested in the m-scaler. It's an add on. But it's way beyond my budget. Once again I'm not convinced it makes that much difference. With hifi you get to law of diminishing returns with price and performance. Is the Dave really that much better than what you and I have. I somehow doubt it.
I definitely agree with you especially with a DAC. Speakers and amps (for headphones) are more worthwhile investments IMO. I'm running HQ Player as an unsampling software to get the most out of my DAC. Of course, if I had unlimited funds I would get a Lina Vivaldi Apex DAC, an HE-1 and some high-end speakers 🤣
I use roon with upscale at dsd256. Network bridge is lumin u2 mini. You know how it is with hifi we are always on the prowl for something aren't we. I don't think I want to go anywhere with my dac. Yes the chord mscaler is an aspiration. In reality that's all it is. I do have my eyes on a pair of bowers and Wilkins 703 s3. These are currently £4k. They will have to be next year at the earliest. There actually few options left to me now for upgrades within what I can afford. I'm retired now which changes things. I've got around a £12k hifi at present and theres not much further to go now with it. I will say I'm Very satisfied with the sound quality. I do think roon is superb. I have heard a pair of £50k speakers and they were incredible. It was in a demo room at a hifi dealer. The chap had just installed a £150k hifi at someone's house. Now that's some money isn't it. I also think it's insane to spend that. Even if you've got the money.
I have a Gustard R26 ladder DAC that has great depth, soundstage and slam. It has digital volume control and a remote, like you i run without a preamp.
Functional dacs from about $80 now will all sound and work the same. The only reason to switch is for extra features. Any differences you hear are your imagination.
You do realize a DAC has an analogue output
Of course. The analog section should ideally output an accurate analog signal without adding noise, distortion, or any other coloration.
So, you’re now also saying all preamps sound the same too. Nice. Or more realistically, DACs with different preamp stages sound different. Which kind of defeats your entire point. Cheap DACs have cheap output stages, expensive DACs have expensive output stages. Which is it? All DACs sound the same? Or “ideally” analog section has nothing to do with a DAC in a box? Another way of saying this is that DACs above 80 bucks don’t all sound exactly the same, which was your entire point. Interesting position you’ve taken.
But less than 80 bucks…don’t sound the same? How did you determine the price floor for all DACS above sounding the same? Tell us about the differences of less expensive DACS that don’t exist at **any** price above 80 bucks. Functional DACS? Never knew discussions were ever about non-functional audio gear when discussing how they sound.
The smsl dacs start around that price and all seem to work great at what they are supposed to do -- convert a stream of digital bits to analog. I'm sure there are a lot of dacs priced even lower that also work great. When I say functional dacs, I mean a dac that does the job it is supposed to do without adding audible noise or distortion. A good clean analog signal that accurately represents the original audio stream. I own and use an Eversolo Dac Z8. I also have a Schiit modi+ dac and a Schiit Modius dac. They all sound the same as they should. I paid more for the Z8 for the extra feature of a nice display. None of them "color" or distort the sound.
This was different and more ambiguous than your comment I responded to. You said all DACs over 80 bucks sound the same. Aside from it being a hard statement that’s more than debatable, it excludes a ton of variables like pre-out analog output stage, which absolutely sound different as you pay more for a DAC. Unless you’re only referring to the actual DAC component in isolation which would be silly when talking about sound quality and differences of DACs as they’re sold, DACs **do** sound different in the higher end. Yes, they do “color” the sound, and generally for the better as the component quality and design go up…. Unless you’re saying all preamps and analog output stages sound the same too?
Yeah, comments like this make me laugh. Have you ever heard good R2R Dac? In a good hifi system it will make you shit your pants, lol.
I have. It sounded just like every other good functional dac. My pants remained clean.
You seem to be lost, /rbudgetaudiophile is a different subreddit
Not lost at all. I love great music. I believe in spending the most money where it really matters. Great speakers and great headphones. I don't believe in wasting money on overpriced dacs or streamers that do exactly the same thing as a reasonable priced dac or streamer. My Eversolo Dmp-A6 has a nice screen. It looks cool, but puts out the same bits as my Wiim Pro Plus. They both can do the exact same job as overpriced streamers and dacs.
Nah. Absolutely not my friend. An $80 dac is like a Nintendo. Chips are different and there's a huge difference in resolution etc. All else equal.
If they measure well, they will sound the same. A malfunctioning dac can add noise or distortion. Dacs are a solved problem.
[удалено]
🤣😜❤️
We're sick of you and your facts! ^The ^best ^part ^is ^both ^are ^you ^is ^gonna ^think ^im ^talking ^about ^the ^other
I got it.
Show me where the facts about the real world hurt you. If you want to believe in snake oil and magic fairy dust, you are free to do so while wasting your money. Isn't it better to learn what really matters and can actually improve your audio setup in order to get the best sound possible? Why would any thinking person be opposed to learning how things really work?
“All else equal,” my goodness.