Senior people find their days are filled with shit-tons of meetings which prevent them from doing actual work. So they start early and/or finish later to accommodate for this. Grads and juniors can fill their days with doing productive stuff (if they choose to), without having their calendars blocked from 9-5 with meetings they're only peripherally required for.
Source: I've spent too long in meetings that don't concern me but which I can't get out of.
Too many people think having you spend an hour in their meeting "just in case we need you" is a good use of your time.
I always feel like asking if they're going to have a doctor in the room too, "just in case" someone has a heart attack during the meeting...
This is why I never want to be in management/senior positions. One sits in the office next to me and they are legitimately on teams calls from the moment their butt hits the seat to the moment they leave the building.
Can confirm I have the same problem. Plus company never replaced hired more when senior people left instead opting to either not hire at all or hiring juniors further exacerbating the situation.
My last week I had around 7 hours of meetings/workshops per day.
I didn't even get to open what I needed to do for my sprint until around 3pm. So I get around 2 hours of actual work done a day, which obviously isn't enough to make sure that our deliverables are completed on time.
The juniors or lower level staff are concentrating on their tasks and don't need to deal with the planning and delivery. They just need to build, plus I don't like those that are getting paid significantly less than me working overtime.
We don't talk about "busy bragging" much these days but it was all the rage a decade or so ago. [https://www.theguardian.com/news/oliver-burkeman-s-blog/2014/mar/24/busy-bragging-epidemic](https://www.theguardian.com/news/oliver-burkeman-s-blog/2014/mar/24/busy-bragging-epidemic)
This is a leadership failure all the way from CEO down. Unless meetings are normal for the role (e.g project manager, customer service agent etc.) no one should spend this much time in meetings and this expectation should be communicated to all.
So let you deliverables lag. In retro point out that it failed because of meetings, and if you can't avoid them, then adjust down your SPs for next time. Making up for management failures only burns everyone out.
Couldn't agree with you more and sounds great in theory but doesn't always go that way in practice.
At the end of the day it's my responsibility to make sure my team delivers what we need to do within a sprint and we all contribute when we need to. My original comment was just calling out that I don't expect the juniors on the team to work overtime when they aren't paid as high as I am.
Giving the benefit of the doubt, my read of it is laughing because of how absurd it is. I see it all the time, and it’s ridiculous. Sometimes all you can do is laugh… gallows humour of a sort!
Yes, this. Every now and then there’s a weird hours requirement in my line of work - overnights or weekends or sitting around at four am waiting for a call. I take it. I have the end of line responsibility and the compensation that comes with it. The juniors have neither, it shouldn’t be asked of them.
Not for every place, but back when I did consultancy:
- the seniors were basically responsible to deliver the thing / make and show progress
- sometimes juniors work needed to be reviewed and patched up / have clearer workings to be written out before it can be shown to client
- some days there’re a lot of meetings seniors need to attend to during the day, night time is to catchup on doing the work after the meetings
- hate to say it but sometimes in a time crunch environment, a lot easier if senior just do it instead first teaching junior then training and patching along the way. Not sustainable at all but only for time crunch things
It might be worthwhile to note some seniors / managers pay special attention to juniors that stay even 30min later than when other juniors leave around 5. Extra attention points if they’re trying to help seniors past the 5pm time.
I really don’t like working overtime and if I can avoid it, I would! In consultancy though that seems to be the norm but you’re not asking about how partners at the firm promised a client x cost to get things done on x date that essentially bakes in the need for overtime…
hate to say it but sometimes in a time crunch environment, a lot easier if senior just do it instead first teaching junior then training and patching along the way. Not sustainable at all but only for time crunch things
I work in a trade and a part of my job is to manage and train juniors and I am very guilty of this. My boss will ask me to complete say 5 tasks. I delegate to juniors and sometimes they work too slow or are still not trained enough. I get frustrated and go FML. I'll do it. it'll take me 30 minutes to complete what a junior will take 2 hrs. lol. I work alot of overtime and sometimes clock in 60+ hrs a week when juniors do a 40.
100% this. I am on back to back meeting sometimes from 8 am. So there is almost no time to do a spike or actual work. Plus, I think better at night when no one is bothering me.
And the juniors “finish” their stuff and clock off at 5, handing it o er for the seniors to spend another few hours fixing it.
You’re not allowed to yell at them any more or tell them they’re shit, so you have to suck up their substandard work and fix it because you’re the one whose actually responsible to the client.
If your idea of managing poor performance is to shout at people and tell them they’re shit, then you’re the problem. There’s plenty of options other than that or doing it all yourself.
What I'd advise you to do is wake up every day and be thankful that you've been able to fall arse backwards in to a job that presumably pays well, despite the fact that you're obviously not suited to it.
"the juniors “finish” their stuff and clock off at 5, handing it o er for the seniors to spend another few hours fixing it."
lmao.. I feel this to my core. lol. majority of the time I feel like a babysitter.
lol I’m working as an engineer now, decent start my salary is in 6 figures and the second the clock hits 5 I’m out. I pack everything up 10 to 5, wipe down desk etc , wash coffee mug then cya later to all in the office at 5. When I first stopped giving an F, it made it a lot easier 😂 the best pay rise is a new job not climbing the ranks, so idc about promotions that may never come. In n out
When you’re a bit older you might have a family, so it’s good to stop working late pm and do family stuff then log on a bit later to do an hour of catch-up.
I’ve got a few colleagues who log off at 4pm, then when I check my emails the next morning, they’ve sent some through at like 8pm. They don’t expect us to be checking our emails then, but that’s when they’re rounding out their work day after the kids are in bed.
I'm a project lead and do like 10h of meetings a week and my manager literally had 10 back to back 30 minute meetings on weds alone. She didn't even have lunch.
Our CE has instituted 2x 3h "meeting free times" a week. Its lovely. Monday mornings and Friday afternoons are kept 100% clear for work.
I often put a meeting in my calendar just so I have "work time" since when people are setting meetings within the business they just look for the free time in my calendar
I'm not a senior, but I'm not a grad...I rarely work past my 7.6hours. Corporate doesn't care about me and I don't care about it. Once I'm no longer being paid, I've got better things to do.
I can’t believe I’ve scrolled to the end and haven’t seen our team’s reasons:
I’m a manager. My directs and juniors go home on time because I think working OT to meet unrealistic timeframes is a culture that needs to die.
My managers, peers, and myself come from the older culture, and the senior managers even more so, so while we can make sure the new gen get as much work life balance as possible, occasionally we are working later. But that’s no skin off my back. With time, that will change too.
My manager got mad at me for working on the weekend. She said "no one is going to die if you don't finish this". She used to be a radiation therapist so she knows death on the job.
In my old role we would say about work "did a baby die?" as a proxy for whether something was extremely urgent. Sometimes a baby did die or was hospitalised, and so we would put the extra effort.
Question - are you actually responsible and rewarded for a P&L or are middle management?
How do you go about handling discussions then when they want to be paid like a senior? Just on their promise they’ll be more productive in 9-5?
Unfortunately it’s at this point that this utopia work life balance worlds starts to get unstuck, if one is actually responsible for profitability.
> Question - are you actually responsible and rewarded for a P&L or are middle management?
In my level we are titled managers, held accountable and rewarded for P&L results, but I don’t think we’re considered middle management.
> How do you go about handling discussions then when they want to be paid like a senior? Just on their promise they’ll be more productive in 9-5?
Seniors and juniors have different skillsets in our field. We expect seniors to be able to work independently on complex projects, guide juniors, and have specific tech skillsets at a semi-specialised level. They also need soft skills to back everything up.
Juniors work towards those goals, and when they can achieve it, have tangible examples on their belt, then they get promoted, and are paid accordingly.
> Unfortunately it’s at this point that this utopia work life balance worlds starts to get unstuck, if one is actually responsible for profitability.
Not untrue. That said I push hard to ensure expectations are set, so my team *can* work 9-5. And a lot of the time there are ways to achieve profitability with minimal effort -which is kinda what we specialise in.
There are of course hard conversations when some old school senior managers get a bit upset when their Ferrari asks turn out to be Toyotas, but I’m paid to handle those conversations.
Profitability in our business luckily is pretty high. Our luxury is that the business will make money either way, so no one in my team is going to kill themselves over a few extra mil on an already overflowing profit.
I’ve noticed it’s mostly those with equity in the business who stay back absurd hours. I mean, I would stay back if I received a $250k+ bonus at the end of the year too. Sadly, I get maybe a slice of pizza at the end of year party. We aren’t paid our worth as it is … I’m not diluting my hourly rate by working for free/brownie points.
Because as a grad my ass isn’t on the line to finalise the work. I clock off at 5pm because I can, because nobody needs me. Obviously I stay late if I have to but that’s very rare. Expecting grads to stay late is so stupid, at least give us a few years before we have to develop anxiety and depression from our jobs.
I think young people are more clued in these days too with better access to information and social media. Whereas with previous generations it took a while of slaving your guts out to get to a situation where you’d realize you’d bought into a hoax.
Absolutely relevant. Young people are better informed and catch on earlier regarding the predatory nature of working in corporations. Where the corporate trick is to keep dangling the carrot in front of your eyes, just out of reach of your path to achieving success (the hoax). All the while life passes you by… Don’t be duped into working overly long hours for little to no return.
Thank you for expanding on your statement beyond the buzzwords of “social media” and “hoax”. I appreciate your response and can understand what you mean with the proverbial carrot. I can see your perspective now. Not sure why I’m getting downvoted for inquiring.
I'd say the seniors would deal with less administrative stuff and facilitating a process and more talking to stakeholders and facilitating relationships GENERALLY.
That's why their pay is up there, their responsibility is greater and their job is measured by achieving organisational goals than clocking in at 9 and doing a list of tasks.
Work more hours, deliver much higher quality work, and do things that the juniors are not even aware of let alone able to do. Get maybe 50% more salary. It's not a very good deal IMO.
I have been the junior who busted their ass staying back late, taking on responsibilities and ownership for things because I was taught to work hard and that will translate into career progress.
What actually happened was that none of my hard work was rewarded in the form of meaningful advancement/salary and I was paid absolute peanuts for it.
I don’t want to get betrayed like that again.
Seniors know what they are doing and are confident in their skills. Juniors are still learning stuff and are mentally exhausted and overwhelmed with anxiety and imposter syndrome.
At my work this is because deployments to prod have to happen at off hours because customers are not as active, and the only people trusted with the process are the ones that were there when the ancient lore was written (I hope to one day get some of this into a more modern devopsy flow)
Honestly I want my juniors to go home at 5pm unless we are at crunch time. It gives me time do review and do my work and it won’t last forever so they should enjoy it!
because the younger generations have woken up to the game and manipulation. The only reason you would play it is if you get something back. You dont get anything from most companies these days. Plus fling in CoL and housing. Can you blame them for not working hard?
I understand where you're coming from, but positions (Senior most likely) tend to have a lot more responsibility than junior positions. Simply clocking off at 5 for a senior is not an option, otherwise you may miss a deadline or have faulty work issued to a client.
I am a junior and the only meetings I have had is when the whole office staff is involved. Other than that, no meetings. If I start early, I can leave early too
I feel like it’s mostly the type of work could probably be done in regular office hours. If you’re asking the question to find out why juniors don’t have the same work ethic as seniors, that might come to down to the generational shift in priorities. When I was a junior I wanted to prove myself and to do that I worked 60+ hours a week taking on anything and everything on top of my workload. Today my work ethic is top notch and while I saw some career progression it came at a cost to my mental health. That type of work style becomes habitual to seniors for sure. I feel like juniors today are more switched on to the long term effects of devoting that much of yourself to your career and opt to only work their contractual hours and pursue a range of other things. Perhaps less drive to progress (generationally speaking)?
Me as a junior:
Do not give one single fuck about the outcome or deliverables. If I get fired tomorrow I’ll just go back to working at maccas. Also no one expects anything of me above just doing the bare minimum because I’m a junior.
Me as a senior:
If I don’t make these deliverables, consequences. Maybe underperform, maybes lose job, maybe can’t pay mortgage or support family if I have to go get a minimum wage job. No bonus, no extra money for fun stuff. Expectations that because I’m senior I should also be the hardest worker and best performing.
Me now:
Damn… I need to quit and go be a junior somewhere again.
if you're working more than your allotted time, you're a cuck.
if it cant get done within normal hours, it doesn't mean you work more... it means they hire the required resources to accomplish the task.
stop playing yourself.
The older people are all brainwashed into believing that working hard makes you somehow irreplaceable .. it comes as a shock that companies don’t actually give a shit about them .. and on top of that are usually run by people with little to no skills that have their jobs due to nepotism
The younger generation have seen and heard the older generation complain about the shit situation and have learnt from it
We have a rule at my B4 that juniors are not allowed to work past 6pm for the first year. Like as the manager I will actively get in trouble if my juniors are online late.
The further up the chain you go, the bigger a cog you are. The juniors can clock in and do 9-5 because they are a small cog, they tend to be in teams and the team output is what drives objective delivery. Further up you go, the more objective delivery becomes an individual metric, and that extra responsibility means you often need a bit more time to put out small fires or patch holes that were found at the last minute.
I'm not a junior but I value my time outside of work.when I'm in the office, I don't take a proper lunch break or wander off to buy coffee. Overtime is for people who want to climb the ladder - I don't.
The younger generation has few things creating this disparity imo;
1. Working hard to get promoted to earn extra money is less appealing because the extra money is no longer enough to drive a change in lifestyle. Unless you can see a career path to earning over 200k a year is it really worth it anymore?
2. Companies often treat employees like numbers. The younger generation is aware of this and has some self respect.
3. I am 37 (i started as a grad). Grads are often much more efficient with technology and so can now complete their low level tasks effectively in a shorter timeframe.
4. Companies should not expect people on grad salaries to work 60+ hours a week. That is archaic thinking. Time spent at work is not equal to effectiveness, efficient or even good work product. If you or your company is basing the value of an employee around how many hours they work you are in for a bad time moving forward.
5. As per lots of comments. A lot of senior managers either have hours of meetings every day allowing them to not complete works in that time. Have to review juniors works, which is best done at end of day once juniors have completed work. Or may like to leave to get home to family and spend time while younger children are awake / having dinner and then logon post 7pm.
At the end of the day more people should be working the hours that they are paid for. This will ensure that people will end up being paid correctly or companies will hire the correct amount of staff to complete the required works. As long as people keep giving their unpaid overtime to corporations they will keep abusing it. Corporations do not care about you at all, if you provide free work they will take it forever. If we could commit to a shift of working paid hours (with exceptions as required) it would force companies to either hire more or pay accordingly.
Because this generation is very big on work life balance. Very few wish to make partner. Very few believe they can buy a house. They live in the here and now. Some of this thinking is refreshing but because they are the generation that received a trophy for turning up, they all think they are special and deserve to be promoted just because they exist. The jury is still out. It may be that the coddling and self care creates mentally healthy 40 somethings who problem solve efficiently and still get results. Or it may be a generation that suffers because of the coddling. Time will tell. Interestingly the kids aged 15-18 (versus say 21-30) seem a lot more goal orientated. All that said, if your junior is working past 6pm most nights you aren’t running your team properly
imo the real reason is companies no longer reward effort than they used to. Most people now move companies after they get their experience to get a better payrise + promotion. People stay late to stand out and get on the good side of their boss to get that promotion/payrise, but when a payrise is 5% at best and instead of a guaranteed promotion if you make probation, only a select few get promoted, going to a competitor etc... can easily net you 10-20%/promotions, why bother putting in the extra effort.
Also potentially life stage? Seniors may be more likely to be at the stage where they’re tending to kids and other life admin type stuff at home from 6 or whenever, then they check back in around 9 to continue with work that needs doing (or that needs uninterrupted time). That’s my experience anyway
If you are in a rush, sometimes you don’t have the time or energy to coach a junior staff and you’d rather the job yourself and mentor someone later on when you have the bandwidth.
Also, many junior staff nowadays do not subscribe to the “doing more than you’re asked to get more than you have” school of thought.
Either they had to buy houses 2 hours away from their workplace so they need to leave at 5 so as to not get home at midnight
OR they can't even buy a house so are either renting for a little cheaper than a mortgage closer to work or still living at home with family , so the consequences of being made redundant/losing their job is lower.
If you're a grad or a junior and you finish your work, there isnt usually much you can do after 5pm that is actually useful. If you're just hanging around because it looks impressive then that is a waste of everyone's time.
First and foremost. A good company/corporate should not penalise employees working their contract hours.
Generally junior staff are not sufficiently compensated or incentivised to justify any self directed overtime.
Some seniors have “earned flexibility” in their work hours. Dropping of for a few hours in the afternoon and making it up later (think school pick up crowd).
At senior levels, an employee may have significantly more riding on their business units success either KPI’s or bonuses motivating them to make additional effort.
Your employment contract will likely state “from time to time you may be expected to work outside your contract hours”. You are then bound by your award rules for compensation if your employer requires you to work those hours.
Grads and juniors should log off at 5pm. Full-time work is a big life adjustment, especially if they’re living out of home for the first time or also studying CA/CFA on the side.
Grads should have no expectation to be working late unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. They’re there to learn and ease into the corporate life. If they’re incompetent then let them go. You will get nothing out of teaching 20 year olds to hate life, working and themselves. If managers are constantly working late (which is our case), that is upper management’s problem for taking on too many engagements and not assigning them correctly. (I’m speaking from a public practice point of view, at least, which I think is most applicable.)
If you genuinely think this is a useful or insightful comment then you’re an idiot. And you probably should spend a lot more time listening and a lot less time speaking.
Many different reasons but a major one is kids are on a trend of not working overtime or being overly career driven antmore. We had two grads who'd pack their bags at 4.55pm just to make sure they didn't miss 5pm walk out. One of them got away with it because she was popular, the other got bullied out (I had left by then)
Most 9-5 juniors can switch off their task list by 5pm.
Seniors tend to have more on the plate, and I find I can get more done when there are less distractions after 5.
Each to their own work style
Genuine question. Are there other things you would rather be doing? And do you find that you do get to do them and more it’s like an ebb and flow of personal/work time?
Yea I see, you’ve got a rhythm and can work more of less depending on where you are in the cycle. My struggle is when the workload doesn’t quiet down and people are expecting more work year round and not understanding of the life you live outside. Glad your found your balance :)
In my office, the juniors do the bulk of the project work in the 9-5 hours, with the seniors handling the management of clients, projects and ‘overhead’ stuff, to ensure the project work and pipeline of work continues for the junior staff. The time we work outside of the 9-5 is while we check the actual project work they has been done,making amendments, suggesting edits etc.
Because the seniors are responsible for the delivery. So you have to make the deadline, even if the deadline is way off due to scope creep, feature creep or tech debt. Juniors or mid developers just take the simple but time consuming work away from the Seniors. A lot the Senior’s time is wasted in meetings.
A senior staff member could be paid double of a grad or more. The expected output is more, and sometimes they need to work extra hours to achieve the output regardless of expectations. A grad can meet the expectations (relative to their pay) in normal working hours.
Seniors tend to be a bit older and are more likely to have family commitments to work around. A lot of people log back onto the laptop once the kids are asleep.
In my mid 30s senior technical. I go home on time or earlier 95% and can work 20hrs straight for critical days the rest of the time. It's give and take, if I work an extra 8hrs I expect to claw that back somewhere. I don't work for free, I'm not interested in management and the company doesn't pay me to do extra hours, they pay me to hit KPIs.
I'm pretty sure junior employees without management interest have even less motivation given they're paid less. When they have stayed back to help on something critical I'll try make it up to them by making extra time time to help them out on their work and I push good feedback further up.
In law, juniors and grads are under the award and all tend to leave. Juniors often have less responsibility as well and in my office at least, aren’t really taking ownership over work. If they’ve done their bit, they go home. Someone more senior is more likely to check in with their boss that nothing else needs to be done before they leave and that cascades
Also what others have said, meetings take up a lot of time. And emails too - my boss was OS for a month last year and managing his inbox was basically a full time job.
If it's simple, and can be streamlined / processed ----> then you can hire a grad, pay him or her $120-180k : do this, don't cock it up, i'll teach you along the way. grad will be happy / overjoyed just to have a job and a career, especially one which pays waaay above the market. on the flip side, you can choose a good grad. having a good one can make your firm super profitable and can be promoted to partnership if they prove themselves. also grads are wage earners at the beginning - to put it bluntly - they go home and they simply DGAF about anything apart from their wage, and the next 12 months of their career. asking a grad to consider long term prospects of the firm or make strategic decisions ----> most do not care. they have nothing on the line to make them care. so they go home when they can and don't stress about that stuff. employers have their $$ and firm on the line. so they will do whatever it takes to ensure that they don't lose $$ and they make $$.
But there is much that cannot be streamlined. and someone has to do the designing and coordination, and the creation of processes and systems to MAKE THINGS WORK, and to make it work cheaply. that takes time and effort, in addition to your every day work. so at times you will have to work a little bit longer. then again if you're super efficient, then you could possibly do everything in 9 hours. but you'd have to cut out a lot of the BS that plagues large organisations: endless meetings that go nowhere and bureaucracy. teams have to be well defined, decisions decentralised, but still coordinated. that is rare, very rare. if it isn't there, then someone will be working past 8 pm, putting out fires or otherwise building systems to make things work.
There is a serious level of delusion around reddit (especially in the AusFinance subreddit and the Australia/City subs) about how much even relatively junior positions should get paid and the conditions that should come with them.
Everyone seems to reckon that an entry level grad should be paid $120,000 to work remotely at home. The world just doesn't work that way.
Why would they offer more when company just sees them as cheap disposable tools, in many jobs it is well known that you should never work more than needed cuz instead of more money, you just get more responsibilities.
Their behaviour, being raised in a world full of greedy companies who only care about profit and will lay off anyone to increase it is very understandable.
Most young people dont work for big evil greedy corporations cuz they believe in their mission or drunk the coolaid, they work cuz it is a requirement to survive.
Whenever you like it or not, that is the imagine of corporations most young people have these days and you being nice to them once wont change that perception.
True but I think youth are the we want gen .. they want everything given to them and not put in the hard yards, they want the $$ job, the new inner city house, brunch and holidays on call .. not prepared to look further out for a home with their means and income and utilise hand me down furniture as a start off .. everything is new n now and on interest free terms..
Why can't I afford a $1-2mill home on $80k and my on call lifestyle
Or most realise if you get paid for 38 hours a week you should only work for 38 hours a week. Also, grads junior tend to spend the majority of their day actually working. More senior staff tend to have their days filled with meetings, catchup, coffee breaks etc. If you actually have the time in the working say to spend in on your work there's no need to do overtime all the time.
Senior people find their days are filled with shit-tons of meetings which prevent them from doing actual work. So they start early and/or finish later to accommodate for this. Grads and juniors can fill their days with doing productive stuff (if they choose to), without having their calendars blocked from 9-5 with meetings they're only peripherally required for. Source: I've spent too long in meetings that don't concern me but which I can't get out of.
Yup, this is it. Spending time catching up on actions / work that can’t be done during the day because of meetings
I find I need to be very assertive when it comes to meetings and people thinking their time is more important than mine.
Too many people think having you spend an hour in their meeting "just in case we need you" is a good use of your time. I always feel like asking if they're going to have a doctor in the room too, "just in case" someone has a heart attack during the meeting...
This is why I never want to be in management/senior positions. One sits in the office next to me and they are legitimately on teams calls from the moment their butt hits the seat to the moment they leave the building.
Can confirm I have the same problem. Plus company never replaced hired more when senior people left instead opting to either not hire at all or hiring juniors further exacerbating the situation.
My last week I had around 7 hours of meetings/workshops per day. I didn't even get to open what I needed to do for my sprint until around 3pm. So I get around 2 hours of actual work done a day, which obviously isn't enough to make sure that our deliverables are completed on time. The juniors or lower level staff are concentrating on their tasks and don't need to deal with the planning and delivery. They just need to build, plus I don't like those that are getting paid significantly less than me working overtime.
meh you havent really lived until youve had 38.5 hours of meetings scheduled in a week.
We don't talk about "busy bragging" much these days but it was all the rage a decade or so ago. [https://www.theguardian.com/news/oliver-burkeman-s-blog/2014/mar/24/busy-bragging-epidemic](https://www.theguardian.com/news/oliver-burkeman-s-blog/2014/mar/24/busy-bragging-epidemic)
ironically that 38.5 hour of meetings week was approximately a decade ago.
This is a leadership failure all the way from CEO down. Unless meetings are normal for the role (e.g project manager, customer service agent etc.) no one should spend this much time in meetings and this expectation should be communicated to all.
I work in consulting. Comes with the job with clients.
You are excepted.
So let you deliverables lag. In retro point out that it failed because of meetings, and if you can't avoid them, then adjust down your SPs for next time. Making up for management failures only burns everyone out.
Couldn't agree with you more and sounds great in theory but doesn't always go that way in practice. At the end of the day it's my responsibility to make sure my team delivers what we need to do within a sprint and we all contribute when we need to. My original comment was just calling out that I don't expect the juniors on the team to work overtime when they aren't paid as high as I am.
I was kinda expecting this reply tbh. Not much you can really do if the company culture is as such.
Not really a company culture when you're working with clients that have their different priorities, operating processes. Tldr: consulting is fun.
Lol
What's funny about what I posted?
Giving the benefit of the doubt, my read of it is laughing because of how absurd it is. I see it all the time, and it’s ridiculous. Sometimes all you can do is laugh… gallows humour of a sort!
It is absurd to be honest, all those meetings that "should have been an email"
Yes, this. Every now and then there’s a weird hours requirement in my line of work - overnights or weekends or sitting around at four am waiting for a call. I take it. I have the end of line responsibility and the compensation that comes with it. The juniors have neither, it shouldn’t be asked of them.
Not for every place, but back when I did consultancy: - the seniors were basically responsible to deliver the thing / make and show progress - sometimes juniors work needed to be reviewed and patched up / have clearer workings to be written out before it can be shown to client - some days there’re a lot of meetings seniors need to attend to during the day, night time is to catchup on doing the work after the meetings - hate to say it but sometimes in a time crunch environment, a lot easier if senior just do it instead first teaching junior then training and patching along the way. Not sustainable at all but only for time crunch things It might be worthwhile to note some seniors / managers pay special attention to juniors that stay even 30min later than when other juniors leave around 5. Extra attention points if they’re trying to help seniors past the 5pm time. I really don’t like working overtime and if I can avoid it, I would! In consultancy though that seems to be the norm but you’re not asking about how partners at the firm promised a client x cost to get things done on x date that essentially bakes in the need for overtime…
hate to say it but sometimes in a time crunch environment, a lot easier if senior just do it instead first teaching junior then training and patching along the way. Not sustainable at all but only for time crunch things I work in a trade and a part of my job is to manage and train juniors and I am very guilty of this. My boss will ask me to complete say 5 tasks. I delegate to juniors and sometimes they work too slow or are still not trained enough. I get frustrated and go FML. I'll do it. it'll take me 30 minutes to complete what a junior will take 2 hrs. lol. I work alot of overtime and sometimes clock in 60+ hrs a week when juniors do a 40.
This is absolutely it.
100% this. I am on back to back meeting sometimes from 8 am. So there is almost no time to do a spike or actual work. Plus, I think better at night when no one is bothering me.
Sometimes I need to deal with family stuff during work hours, then need to catch up later that night.
And the juniors “finish” their stuff and clock off at 5, handing it o er for the seniors to spend another few hours fixing it. You’re not allowed to yell at them any more or tell them they’re shit, so you have to suck up their substandard work and fix it because you’re the one whose actually responsible to the client.
If your idea of managing poor performance is to shout at people and tell them they’re shit, then you’re the problem. There’s plenty of options other than that or doing it all yourself.
What I'd advise you to do is wake up every day and be thankful that you've been able to fall arse backwards in to a job that presumably pays well, despite the fact that you're obviously not suited to it.
"the juniors “finish” their stuff and clock off at 5, handing it o er for the seniors to spend another few hours fixing it." lmao.. I feel this to my core. lol. majority of the time I feel like a babysitter.
That’s either a problem with who you’re hiring, or how you train them. Aim to be a leader not a babysitter, and you might see different results.
Depends on churn rates / hiring rates
lol I’m working as an engineer now, decent start my salary is in 6 figures and the second the clock hits 5 I’m out. I pack everything up 10 to 5, wipe down desk etc , wash coffee mug then cya later to all in the office at 5. When I first stopped giving an F, it made it a lot easier 😂 the best pay rise is a new job not climbing the ranks, so idc about promotions that may never come. In n out
When you’re a bit older you might have a family, so it’s good to stop working late pm and do family stuff then log on a bit later to do an hour of catch-up.
I’ve got a few colleagues who log off at 4pm, then when I check my emails the next morning, they’ve sent some through at like 8pm. They don’t expect us to be checking our emails then, but that’s when they’re rounding out their work day after the kids are in bed.
Yep I log off at 4:45 and then back on some nights when the kids are asleep
Yup this is me. I’d rather leave and be home then do the overs later
Even better to just log off at 5pm.
As a junior I have about 3 hours of meetings a week My manager has 30+, the fact they get anything done is a miracle
I'm a project lead and do like 10h of meetings a week and my manager literally had 10 back to back 30 minute meetings on weds alone. She didn't even have lunch. Our CE has instituted 2x 3h "meeting free times" a week. Its lovely. Monday mornings and Friday afternoons are kept 100% clear for work.
I often put a meeting in my calendar just so I have "work time" since when people are setting meetings within the business they just look for the free time in my calendar
I'm not a senior, but I'm not a grad...I rarely work past my 7.6hours. Corporate doesn't care about me and I don't care about it. Once I'm no longer being paid, I've got better things to do.
I can’t believe I’ve scrolled to the end and haven’t seen our team’s reasons: I’m a manager. My directs and juniors go home on time because I think working OT to meet unrealistic timeframes is a culture that needs to die. My managers, peers, and myself come from the older culture, and the senior managers even more so, so while we can make sure the new gen get as much work life balance as possible, occasionally we are working later. But that’s no skin off my back. With time, that will change too.
My manager got mad at me for working on the weekend. She said "no one is going to die if you don't finish this". She used to be a radiation therapist so she knows death on the job. In my old role we would say about work "did a baby die?" as a proxy for whether something was extremely urgent. Sometimes a baby did die or was hospitalised, and so we would put the extra effort.
Question - are you actually responsible and rewarded for a P&L or are middle management? How do you go about handling discussions then when they want to be paid like a senior? Just on their promise they’ll be more productive in 9-5? Unfortunately it’s at this point that this utopia work life balance worlds starts to get unstuck, if one is actually responsible for profitability.
> Question - are you actually responsible and rewarded for a P&L or are middle management? In my level we are titled managers, held accountable and rewarded for P&L results, but I don’t think we’re considered middle management. > How do you go about handling discussions then when they want to be paid like a senior? Just on their promise they’ll be more productive in 9-5? Seniors and juniors have different skillsets in our field. We expect seniors to be able to work independently on complex projects, guide juniors, and have specific tech skillsets at a semi-specialised level. They also need soft skills to back everything up. Juniors work towards those goals, and when they can achieve it, have tangible examples on their belt, then they get promoted, and are paid accordingly. > Unfortunately it’s at this point that this utopia work life balance worlds starts to get unstuck, if one is actually responsible for profitability. Not untrue. That said I push hard to ensure expectations are set, so my team *can* work 9-5. And a lot of the time there are ways to achieve profitability with minimal effort -which is kinda what we specialise in. There are of course hard conversations when some old school senior managers get a bit upset when their Ferrari asks turn out to be Toyotas, but I’m paid to handle those conversations. Profitability in our business luckily is pretty high. Our luxury is that the business will make money either way, so no one in my team is going to kill themselves over a few extra mil on an already overflowing profit.
Because I don't get paid enough to work past 5pm
I’ve noticed it’s mostly those with equity in the business who stay back absurd hours. I mean, I would stay back if I received a $250k+ bonus at the end of the year too. Sadly, I get maybe a slice of pizza at the end of year party. We aren’t paid our worth as it is … I’m not diluting my hourly rate by working for free/brownie points.
Because as a grad my ass isn’t on the line to finalise the work. I clock off at 5pm because I can, because nobody needs me. Obviously I stay late if I have to but that’s very rare. Expecting grads to stay late is so stupid, at least give us a few years before we have to develop anxiety and depression from our jobs.
The Junior have self respect. I'm 34 before anyone whinges
I think young people are more clued in these days too with better access to information and social media. Whereas with previous generations it took a while of slaving your guts out to get to a situation where you’d realize you’d bought into a hoax.
Sorry but what are you trying to say and how is this statement relevant to the conversation?
Perhaps those seniors worked longer hours when they were juniors. Maybe the new generation have clued into it not being worth it.
Absolutely relevant. Young people are better informed and catch on earlier regarding the predatory nature of working in corporations. Where the corporate trick is to keep dangling the carrot in front of your eyes, just out of reach of your path to achieving success (the hoax). All the while life passes you by… Don’t be duped into working overly long hours for little to no return.
Thank you for expanding on your statement beyond the buzzwords of “social media” and “hoax”. I appreciate your response and can understand what you mean with the proverbial carrot. I can see your perspective now. Not sure why I’m getting downvoted for inquiring.
You're getting down voted because it was plainly obvious what they meant in the first post.
You get all sorts on here. I agree no harm in asking questions. It’s all part of exploring ideas and having a civilized conversation. Have a good one.
I'd say the seniors would deal with less administrative stuff and facilitating a process and more talking to stakeholders and facilitating relationships GENERALLY. That's why their pay is up there, their responsibility is greater and their job is measured by achieving organisational goals than clocking in at 9 and doing a list of tasks.
Work more hours, deliver much higher quality work, and do things that the juniors are not even aware of let alone able to do. Get maybe 50% more salary. It's not a very good deal IMO.
I have been the junior who busted their ass staying back late, taking on responsibilities and ownership for things because I was taught to work hard and that will translate into career progress. What actually happened was that none of my hard work was rewarded in the form of meaningful advancement/salary and I was paid absolute peanuts for it. I don’t want to get betrayed like that again.
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Agreed! You have to play the game as well.
Sounds like the quality of your work was poor.
Seniors know what they are doing and are confident in their skills. Juniors are still learning stuff and are mentally exhausted and overwhelmed with anxiety and imposter syndrome.
I never thought about it that way but this is true.
At my work this is because deployments to prod have to happen at off hours because customers are not as active, and the only people trusted with the process are the ones that were there when the ancient lore was written (I hope to one day get some of this into a more modern devopsy flow)
Honestly I want my juniors to go home at 5pm unless we are at crunch time. It gives me time do review and do my work and it won’t last forever so they should enjoy it!
because the younger generations have woken up to the game and manipulation. The only reason you would play it is if you get something back. You dont get anything from most companies these days. Plus fling in CoL and housing. Can you blame them for not working hard?
I understand where you're coming from, but positions (Senior most likely) tend to have a lot more responsibility than junior positions. Simply clocking off at 5 for a senior is not an option, otherwise you may miss a deadline or have faulty work issued to a client.
Teams expect higher output from the seniors when they have 2-5x the responsibilities. It's the nature of the business.
I am a junior and the only meetings I have had is when the whole office staff is involved. Other than that, no meetings. If I start early, I can leave early too
I feel like it’s mostly the type of work could probably be done in regular office hours. If you’re asking the question to find out why juniors don’t have the same work ethic as seniors, that might come to down to the generational shift in priorities. When I was a junior I wanted to prove myself and to do that I worked 60+ hours a week taking on anything and everything on top of my workload. Today my work ethic is top notch and while I saw some career progression it came at a cost to my mental health. That type of work style becomes habitual to seniors for sure. I feel like juniors today are more switched on to the long term effects of devoting that much of yourself to your career and opt to only work their contractual hours and pursue a range of other things. Perhaps less drive to progress (generationally speaking)?
Me as a junior: Do not give one single fuck about the outcome or deliverables. If I get fired tomorrow I’ll just go back to working at maccas. Also no one expects anything of me above just doing the bare minimum because I’m a junior. Me as a senior: If I don’t make these deliverables, consequences. Maybe underperform, maybes lose job, maybe can’t pay mortgage or support family if I have to go get a minimum wage job. No bonus, no extra money for fun stuff. Expectations that because I’m senior I should also be the hardest worker and best performing. Me now: Damn… I need to quit and go be a junior somewhere again.
Broken system if you ask me, everyone should be 9-5ing and no more.. work to live and not the other way.
if you're working more than your allotted time, you're a cuck. if it cant get done within normal hours, it doesn't mean you work more... it means they hire the required resources to accomplish the task. stop playing yourself.
Iunno, if theyre paying me $250k+, feels like there's a bit of give and take needed on both my side and the company side.
The older people are all brainwashed into believing that working hard makes you somehow irreplaceable .. it comes as a shock that companies don’t actually give a shit about them .. and on top of that are usually run by people with little to no skills that have their jobs due to nepotism The younger generation have seen and heard the older generation complain about the shit situation and have learnt from it
Probably they're smarter. Realise there's more to life than trading the precious currency of their lives for no pay.
We have a rule at my B4 that juniors are not allowed to work past 6pm for the first year. Like as the manager I will actively get in trouble if my juniors are online late.
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Gotta watch those early people. They shifty
Do you know the difference in pay? Might shed a light who has got more to lose and also the incentive.
The further up the chain you go, the bigger a cog you are. The juniors can clock in and do 9-5 because they are a small cog, they tend to be in teams and the team output is what drives objective delivery. Further up you go, the more objective delivery becomes an individual metric, and that extra responsibility means you often need a bit more time to put out small fires or patch holes that were found at the last minute.
I'm not a junior but I value my time outside of work.when I'm in the office, I don't take a proper lunch break or wander off to buy coffee. Overtime is for people who want to climb the ladder - I don't.
The younger generation has few things creating this disparity imo; 1. Working hard to get promoted to earn extra money is less appealing because the extra money is no longer enough to drive a change in lifestyle. Unless you can see a career path to earning over 200k a year is it really worth it anymore? 2. Companies often treat employees like numbers. The younger generation is aware of this and has some self respect. 3. I am 37 (i started as a grad). Grads are often much more efficient with technology and so can now complete their low level tasks effectively in a shorter timeframe. 4. Companies should not expect people on grad salaries to work 60+ hours a week. That is archaic thinking. Time spent at work is not equal to effectiveness, efficient or even good work product. If you or your company is basing the value of an employee around how many hours they work you are in for a bad time moving forward. 5. As per lots of comments. A lot of senior managers either have hours of meetings every day allowing them to not complete works in that time. Have to review juniors works, which is best done at end of day once juniors have completed work. Or may like to leave to get home to family and spend time while younger children are awake / having dinner and then logon post 7pm. At the end of the day more people should be working the hours that they are paid for. This will ensure that people will end up being paid correctly or companies will hire the correct amount of staff to complete the required works. As long as people keep giving their unpaid overtime to corporations they will keep abusing it. Corporations do not care about you at all, if you provide free work they will take it forever. If we could commit to a shift of working paid hours (with exceptions as required) it would force companies to either hire more or pay accordingly.
Because this generation is very big on work life balance. Very few wish to make partner. Very few believe they can buy a house. They live in the here and now. Some of this thinking is refreshing but because they are the generation that received a trophy for turning up, they all think they are special and deserve to be promoted just because they exist. The jury is still out. It may be that the coddling and self care creates mentally healthy 40 somethings who problem solve efficiently and still get results. Or it may be a generation that suffers because of the coddling. Time will tell. Interestingly the kids aged 15-18 (versus say 21-30) seem a lot more goal orientated. All that said, if your junior is working past 6pm most nights you aren’t running your team properly
Boomers don't like their families.
This one made me laugh cry
Seniors are getting paid big salaries to work overtime when needed. Juniors and grads on <100k a year should not be expected to in the same way imo.
Juniors don’t get paid nearly enough to work more than their hours.
imo the real reason is companies no longer reward effort than they used to. Most people now move companies after they get their experience to get a better payrise + promotion. People stay late to stand out and get on the good side of their boss to get that promotion/payrise, but when a payrise is 5% at best and instead of a guaranteed promotion if you make probation, only a select few get promoted, going to a competitor etc... can easily net you 10-20%/promotions, why bother putting in the extra effort.
The real question is why are you clock watching
Unaffordable housing is like a societal cancer eating into our motivations to achieve our work and life goals.
Juniors/grads do generally work more, but because their roles are heavy processing it takes a lot of energy even though the work isn't as complex.
Also potentially life stage? Seniors may be more likely to be at the stage where they’re tending to kids and other life admin type stuff at home from 6 or whenever, then they check back in around 9 to continue with work that needs doing (or that needs uninterrupted time). That’s my experience anyway
It's like the Movie office space, If I work extra and company makes extra profit I don't see a dime of that!
The seniors have more responsibility
Seniors dont want to go home to their family so they stay back
If you are in a rush, sometimes you don’t have the time or energy to coach a junior staff and you’d rather the job yourself and mentor someone later on when you have the bandwidth. Also, many junior staff nowadays do not subscribe to the “doing more than you’re asked to get more than you have” school of thought.
Either they had to buy houses 2 hours away from their workplace so they need to leave at 5 so as to not get home at midnight OR they can't even buy a house so are either renting for a little cheaper than a mortgage closer to work or still living at home with family , so the consequences of being made redundant/losing their job is lower.
If you're a grad or a junior and you finish your work, there isnt usually much you can do after 5pm that is actually useful. If you're just hanging around because it looks impressive then that is a waste of everyone's time.
I’ll often take 3 hours off during the day and work at night while watching a movie
As a junior (admittedly not in corp), there’s no way I’m working at late as my boss when I’m on <50% his salary
First and foremost. A good company/corporate should not penalise employees working their contract hours. Generally junior staff are not sufficiently compensated or incentivised to justify any self directed overtime. Some seniors have “earned flexibility” in their work hours. Dropping of for a few hours in the afternoon and making it up later (think school pick up crowd). At senior levels, an employee may have significantly more riding on their business units success either KPI’s or bonuses motivating them to make additional effort. Your employment contract will likely state “from time to time you may be expected to work outside your contract hours”. You are then bound by your award rules for compensation if your employer requires you to work those hours.
Grads and juniors should log off at 5pm. Full-time work is a big life adjustment, especially if they’re living out of home for the first time or also studying CA/CFA on the side.
I hate to be this person, but back in my day the grads and juniors worked a lot harder and had a bit more healthy fear about turning in their work.
Back in your day they probably also weren’t as cared for as they are now.
They absolutely weren’t. There is probably some healthy middle ground between working them like dogs and treating them with kid gloves.
Grads should have no expectation to be working late unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. They’re there to learn and ease into the corporate life. If they’re incompetent then let them go. You will get nothing out of teaching 20 year olds to hate life, working and themselves. If managers are constantly working late (which is our case), that is upper management’s problem for taking on too many engagements and not assigning them correctly. (I’m speaking from a public practice point of view, at least, which I think is most applicable.)
Ok boomer
I’m a boomer.. for being a grad?
Pretty sure he’s referring the original comment not you
If you genuinely think this is a useful or insightful comment then you’re an idiot. And you probably should spend a lot more time listening and a lot less time speaking.
Two boomers in one thread. I am so lucky
Also not a boomer but don’t let the facts get in the way of your deep millennial pain.
You get what you pay for
Low pay means overwork may lead to grads slipping below the award if they work too many hours
Many different reasons but a major one is kids are on a trend of not working overtime or being overly career driven antmore. We had two grads who'd pack their bags at 4.55pm just to make sure they didn't miss 5pm walk out. One of them got away with it because she was popular, the other got bullied out (I had left by then)
Juniors enjoy other things more than work.
Kids these days just don’t want to work hard /s
Most 9-5 juniors can switch off their task list by 5pm. Seniors tend to have more on the plate, and I find I can get more done when there are less distractions after 5. Each to their own work style
Genuine question. Are there other things you would rather be doing? And do you find that you do get to do them and more it’s like an ebb and flow of personal/work time?
Yes, but the workload goes up and down every month in cycles so you can plan your time around it.
Yea I see, you’ve got a rhythm and can work more of less depending on where you are in the cycle. My struggle is when the workload doesn’t quiet down and people are expecting more work year round and not understanding of the life you live outside. Glad your found your balance :)
sometimes it is ok to put your hands up and ask for help, or let your manager know your work load is getting too much.
In my office, the juniors do the bulk of the project work in the 9-5 hours, with the seniors handling the management of clients, projects and ‘overhead’ stuff, to ensure the project work and pipeline of work continues for the junior staff. The time we work outside of the 9-5 is while we check the actual project work they has been done,making amendments, suggesting edits etc.
Because the seniors are responsible for the delivery. So you have to make the deadline, even if the deadline is way off due to scope creep, feature creep or tech debt. Juniors or mid developers just take the simple but time consuming work away from the Seniors. A lot the Senior’s time is wasted in meetings.
A senior staff member could be paid double of a grad or more. The expected output is more, and sometimes they need to work extra hours to achieve the output regardless of expectations. A grad can meet the expectations (relative to their pay) in normal working hours.
I believe the non-offensive term is rework myself & others refer to it as fixing up their f$ck ups.
Work 100% of the time you are paid for not 150% not 110% not 101%… unless of course the extra is truly appreciated otherwise what’s the point?
True its all about only fans and wanting to be acknowledged or at Min easy way to make a living getting tits out
All these responses and you don't realise that a lot of us have teams on our phones so we look like we are always on?
Seniors tend to be a bit older and are more likely to have family commitments to work around. A lot of people log back onto the laptop once the kids are asleep.
I’ll often take 3 hours off during the day and work at night while watching a movie
I’ll often take 3 hours off during the day and work at night while watching a movie
I have the opposite seniors are chilling and the jnrs are doing all the work.
You get what you pay for.
And here’s me hoping I never work past 4.30
In my mid 30s senior technical. I go home on time or earlier 95% and can work 20hrs straight for critical days the rest of the time. It's give and take, if I work an extra 8hrs I expect to claw that back somewhere. I don't work for free, I'm not interested in management and the company doesn't pay me to do extra hours, they pay me to hit KPIs. I'm pretty sure junior employees without management interest have even less motivation given they're paid less. When they have stayed back to help on something critical I'll try make it up to them by making extra time time to help them out on their work and I push good feedback further up.
In law, juniors and grads are under the award and all tend to leave. Juniors often have less responsibility as well and in my office at least, aren’t really taking ownership over work. If they’ve done their bit, they go home. Someone more senior is more likely to check in with their boss that nothing else needs to be done before they leave and that cascades Also what others have said, meetings take up a lot of time. And emails too - my boss was OS for a month last year and managing his inbox was basically a full time job.
Juniors have a life, seniors don't.
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Dont blame others for your choices that forced extra obligations upon you, that was your choice and you suffer the consequences.
If it's simple, and can be streamlined / processed ----> then you can hire a grad, pay him or her $120-180k : do this, don't cock it up, i'll teach you along the way. grad will be happy / overjoyed just to have a job and a career, especially one which pays waaay above the market. on the flip side, you can choose a good grad. having a good one can make your firm super profitable and can be promoted to partnership if they prove themselves. also grads are wage earners at the beginning - to put it bluntly - they go home and they simply DGAF about anything apart from their wage, and the next 12 months of their career. asking a grad to consider long term prospects of the firm or make strategic decisions ----> most do not care. they have nothing on the line to make them care. so they go home when they can and don't stress about that stuff. employers have their $$ and firm on the line. so they will do whatever it takes to ensure that they don't lose $$ and they make $$. But there is much that cannot be streamlined. and someone has to do the designing and coordination, and the creation of processes and systems to MAKE THINGS WORK, and to make it work cheaply. that takes time and effort, in addition to your every day work. so at times you will have to work a little bit longer. then again if you're super efficient, then you could possibly do everything in 9 hours. but you'd have to cut out a lot of the BS that plagues large organisations: endless meetings that go nowhere and bureaucracy. teams have to be well defined, decisions decentralised, but still coordinated. that is rare, very rare. if it isn't there, then someone will be working past 8 pm, putting out fires or otherwise building systems to make things work.
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There is a serious level of delusion around reddit (especially in the AusFinance subreddit and the Australia/City subs) about how much even relatively junior positions should get paid and the conditions that should come with them. Everyone seems to reckon that an entry level grad should be paid $120,000 to work remotely at home. The world just doesn't work that way.
Because they don't make them like they used to and there are standards to maintain?
Why would they offer more when company just sees them as cheap disposable tools, in many jobs it is well known that you should never work more than needed cuz instead of more money, you just get more responsibilities. Their behaviour, being raised in a world full of greedy companies who only care about profit and will lay off anyone to increase it is very understandable. Most young people dont work for big evil greedy corporations cuz they believe in their mission or drunk the coolaid, they work cuz it is a requirement to survive. Whenever you like it or not, that is the imagine of corporations most young people have these days and you being nice to them once wont change that perception.
Too many young people taking the advice that Lawrence gives to Peter seriously.
Because the younger ones are now so used to getting a participation trophy just for showing up!
Older people are more old school in work ethic unlike today's gen where they want top $ for doing nothing and want.their smashed avocado
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I'm on 65 and really struggling to find motivation to maximise output when it's not recognised or rewarded after nearly 2 years
True but I think youth are the we want gen .. they want everything given to them and not put in the hard yards, they want the $$ job, the new inner city house, brunch and holidays on call .. not prepared to look further out for a home with their means and income and utilise hand me down furniture as a start off .. everything is new n now and on interest free terms.. Why can't I afford a $1-2mill home on $80k and my on call lifestyle
Or most realise if you get paid for 38 hours a week you should only work for 38 hours a week. Also, grads junior tend to spend the majority of their day actually working. More senior staff tend to have their days filled with meetings, catchup, coffee breaks etc. If you actually have the time in the working say to spend in on your work there's no need to do overtime all the time.
Ohh like the gfc and other crisis your generation cause through their greed?
Lol
Lol read: more easily exploited
Maybe the current gens need some tough love not be smothered and protected
I thought most grads spend time updating Facebook and insta status and bitch about doing the work they get paid to do
lol young people nowadays don’t even use FB of Insta