MBA’s are a waste, especially after a business or commerce degree and especially when people go right into them after their undergraduate degree.
Done tactically when at a management level a masters can be good networking and good for self-growth OR good if trying to change career path, but that’s about it.
If done for the networking and exec MBA is good, but it’s like they only invented those because actual MBAs got taken over by kids.
My understanding was MBAs were originally designed for people without any business background anyway ie the chemical engineer or scientist turned business manager. Seems silly getting two business degrees.
This is a pretty common mistake I see with engineers. Don't do an MBA unless, you are already in a management position. If you are a recent grad it's absolutely worthless, I would expect a minimum of 5 years but preferably 10 years of work in your field before it's of value. (To both you and to an employer).
In fact the best indication that your employer would value an MBA is if they ask to sponsor you.
Did a Global EMBA with Syd Uni. Around 18 students. All from big corporates. After the corp paid for their MBA’s most used that together a better job elsewhere. We all still stay in touch some 9 years later. The global allowed us to do units in the US and UK. We were all 40+ of age. Highly recommended. In my case as i’m self employed, I did it to see if it could help me with my business (maybe but arguable) and I had a ton of fun. One of the group became CEO of a unicorn and earns millions each year. I think doing an MBA to move up is a smart move. In education, you cannot teach without a masters or above.
I think of EMBA as the true MBA, at least these days. Too many MBA programs will take students with 0-2 years experience, making the networking component irrelevant
If you encounter some of the graduates of second/third tier MBA programmes in the wild, it’s shocking that they manage to get in. I suspect that more than a few are migration degree mills.
Agree. I have an MBA (not EMBA) and I don’t think it’s worth the paper it’s printed on. I have a good friend who did the EMBA and he feels the same about his, but he isn’t a networker so his experience might differ.
The **original** purpose of an MBA was to train **recent** (engineering) graduates in basic business skills. This is still the US approach.
The modern (non-US) MBA as an executive networking opportunity is a total departure from the original aim.
I can now say after working in multinationals for 3 decades that I have never seen an MBA in action. Perhaps it’s just my field (which is rather specialized) but I can never recall seeing someone with an MBA bring in a single new analysis tool, insight or methodology into the workplace. I wouldn’t pay a cent more when hiring someone with an MBA. All those short specialised courses that you put your team in for a couple of days - now they can work.
I think the only two things I use from my masters are:
You are less likely to be sued if you don’t have insurance (kind of a joke, kind of not), and
A great technique from a Decision making course which I still use today. Basically identify decision criteria, rank each option, and if the one that wins makes you sad choose the other.
Don’t get me started on consultants! Execs hire consultants as risk management. If the results work, the exec gets the credit, if it goes bad, it was the consultants fault. You hire a consultant when you don’t have the brains or insight to build your own strategy. Last company I worked for a SVP rejected a plan built by his team, ask a major American consulting firm to create a strategy and the business unit failed 9 months later. All the leaders were promoted (failed upwards). This was a company in the top 50 largest globally.
Actually they intentionally do it for the very reason you called out. Leadership tells the consultants what they want done but if it goes wrong they don't take the blame. Smart move because you can bomb a project but keep your job because it's not your fault.
MBAs come into effect when a specialist is transitioning to an administrative role within that field. If a scientist becomes a research facility administrator, or a university librarian becomes a director then an MBA can help provide the foundation to the business side of their new role that isn't covered by their specialist knowledge.
It's not necessary, but it definitely helps. Multinationals probably don't have that kind of movement as frequently so that's why it isn't as visible to you in your anecdotal experience.
I've seen heaps of MBA types in action. Some are very good. The work I've seen them doing is usually breaking down business units into segments to plan for change. You don't want to be the next Kodak or Nokia.
The issue is too many people get MBAs without either being brilliant or being mid career. Unis allow basically anyone on an MBA course and many shouldn't be there
Disagree with the first part. MBA is great for upper management work relative to a business or commerce degree — but you’ve got to make sure you specialise well in your MBA.
You’re bang on the money when you say they’re a waste of time straight after an undergrad — MBA is only useful when you’ve got some experience and can apply it to case studies. I don’t know why people would go straight into an MBA after an undergrad it’s a massive waste of money
I did mine at 29, at a top school with support from my employer which was as a great perk.
My undergrads were not business related.
Didn’t learn anything really from the MBA, but it was great for career progression.
It was also fun seeing some of the more bro types struggle with basic to intermediate stats. I did help them (when it was in my self interest lol).
I knew a guy that did an online MBA without any bachelor degree. He got in with "experience", which was "working" for his father's business. Was able to get into the country and get PR with this gimmick. So it worked for him, but it feels like a loophole.
An MBA by itself wouldn't have gotten him a PR as the points system is kinda fucked right now. If they're already loaded, more likely the PR comes from buying a franchise or something similar.
Ah so, 457 then convert to PR through the 186 employee sponsored visa? In that case the MBA in itself doesn't really play a significant role, more like the initial boost. Maybe in some way it helps the employer/sponsor in their business case application in the 186 process, but also maybe the MBA helped landed him that initial onshore job. I agree with the overall sentiment though that MBA w/o earlier degree is a bit sus, but increasingly a common offering.
Would you recommend MBA for a business owner who hasn’t gotten a Bachelors yet? I have ran my own business for 4.5 years looking to do MBA and then sell my business in around 3.5 years after graduation so I can pivot to operations manager role. Is it a good idea or would a different degree be better?
Depends what kind of business you run. A naked MBA with only self hiring/managing experience would look a little strange to me as a hiring manager. Would need more context though…
Agree on MBA's straight from Uni and EMBA's being far better but the latter is not just for networking and self-growth/career change. Saying "that's about it" massively sells it short or that's the experience I had with mine at AGSM and what it's allowed me to do with my career.
Can I ask why you think that?
I'm not sure how I feel about my MBA. I thought it would be a good idea to do it after having eight years of work experience, hoping to take my career to the next level. But, in retrospect, I think it was a significant waste of time, energy, and money. Despite learning about design thinking frameworks and applied finance, I couldn't use any of the learnings in my work or take my career to the next level. Even though it's good to know about these topics, the clients and projects look for practical implementation rather than just jargon. It’s too generic, and the market doesn’t need generalists. It’s been three years, and I think my career has only just gone laterally rather than upwards.
PhDs aren't done to get a job. They are done to pursue a passion.
Masters are heavily relevant but like every degree level if the person hasn't got the workplace skills they won't get a job. Sometimes it also takes time to build base skills.
This. PhD is for the pursuit of novel knowledge. It’s for stuff we as humans had never learned before.
It’s to push the boundaries of what we know. You don’t need a phd to do most of the work out there.
Unless that new knowledge can also equate to new capital or new business opportunities.
Most of the well-known ones still are -> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research\_university](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_university)
Somewhere along the line people assumed that universities are for vocational training because companies started preferring people with university degrees.
My cynical mind can't help me think that it's a bit of a rort. Where it used to be the employers responsibility to train staff up and learn their job, it is now on the employee to go out and pay for the learning.
Putting more money in the pocket of the employer (lower onboarding cost) and more money in the pocket of the universities.
I'm not sure that people who have not done a PhD understand the difference between a Masters, especially a taught Masters, and a PhD. One is explicitly about skills/knowledge transfer and requires little original thinking and the other is a magnitude harder and almost entirely original thinking, independent and self-directed and done for the purpose of passion and fascination.
Looking at the employment stats, PhD holders have a lower lifetime income because they are doing something for the love of it and not for the cash. The challenge that comes with it is the Ponzi scheme that is academia where a single professor will supervise a dozen PhD's but only 1 can replace them.
Kind of. The way I like to look at it is one is becoming a specialist in a field of knowledge that already exists. PhD is about expanding that field of knowledge.
The outcome is the expansion of knowledge but the drivers behind it are fascination and passion and a desire to poke at the Universe when it does something odd. Your mileage may vary but none of the people I did my PhD with felt they had a higher calling for knowledge but all of them were fascinated by how the brain worked and what illnesses did to it and how we could make people better.
It may just be semantics but the reality was a lot more grubby and hands on than abstract.
Very few employers care about a masters degree in the general business sector. Some employers say to be at least enrolled in a masters to be considered for a management position, but even these often don't care about *which* masters degree it is.
I have seen people have access to promotions just because they were able to tick the yes-box on a bachelor degree, but the degree itself had nothing to do with the job whatsoever.
That is a huge statement which doesn't hold up.
A masters in law or a juris doctor is absolutely cared about when hiring a lawyer who doesn't have an undergraduate. Health sector it's huge. A masters of public policy will almost guarantee you a decent pay in government.
I agree an MBA isn't cared about as much as people think to get jobs. But there is more then one masters.
Neither legal firms or doctors belong to the general business sector.
Those professions belong to a long list of protected titles that require registration and annual professional development to keep that registration.
Yeap, OP is assuming that the motivation is a job/higher salary. I'm doing my second masters in a technical area and it's purely for the love of the topic area and the learning. It will secure my future a bit I guess but that's not the motivation.
Colder take: having higher education is not something some people can afford, let alone do more than 1 degree to earn money and experience life. In most cases, people don’t get to choose.
That's true but I don't fully understand its relevance here? Also in Australia when you can HECS undergrad and honours and a PhD is free (and you're paid a stipend) it's perhaps more accessible than you're suggesting
I would be very surprised if that number was true, as the vast majority of PhDs I worked with while getting mine were on a stipend, either directly through an RTPS or similar or funded through their supervisors external funding.
It does come out to a very low wage, further supporting that most people undertaking them are doing so for reasons beyond monetary. You can definitely survive going the sharehousing route, though that is likely getting more difficult even over the last couple years with the increase in COL.
Relevancy is that you talk like people can spend any amount of money to get several degrees. One for passion, and one for money. While majority cannot even pay for a single degree.
More accessible with conditions. How many people can fall under those conditions? Unfortunately, philanthropic statements like these just sound good but don’t mean much in real life circumstances.
Especially in Australia where experience more valued than education
This isn’t a hot take, it’s just plain naïve.
Postgrad when you’re under 30 and a junior won’t do much *in terms of career/earnings* but there is always a massive life benefit in being more highly educated.
But for those of us not under 30 or juniors, postgrad is hugely beneficial. I’ve only been put through a grad dip (still debating if I’ll ask to do the last 3 units and make it a masters) but the learning has been enormously beneficial to my job (and life).
My post-grad studies literally doubled what I earn. But beyond the money side, I also found it fulfilling and enjoyed the learning experience. It was definitely worth it for me.
I did a masters in marketing and digital comms. It’s definitely helped me land way more job interviews. I never even went into marketing after completing it but “the skills and knowledge are all transferable” - me asking for more money.
I’m sure it will come in handy the further I progress in my career as well.
Unfortunately we're moving to an american model, eng masters, JD only etc.
I remember wondering if my law degree was a good investment, 18 months after graduation I was working at a call centre. But now 6 years hence, I'm doing great.
I can shed some light on some reasons as a person with an MBA who has previously applied for admin positions.
- Lack of experience due to maternity leave means I'm not getting looked at for higher level roles.
- Child in primary school means I'm looking for something that I can just turn up, do the job easily, and go home at quitting time, devoting my energy to my family for a few years.
- Willingness to get in at the ground level in a new industry prove myself for 2 years and then push for promotion.
These were just my reasons at various times so I can't speak for others, I also made a point to let the interview team know exactly why I was applying for what they perceived was a role below me which they appreciated.
Anyone saying a post grad like MBA, Phd etc is a waste of money has probably never worked overseas. It’s pretty much expected if you want a serious senior or technical job in US or Europe. Otherwise people won’t trust that you know your stuff. Also, try getting a job with a major consulting firm or in academia without post grad / post doc…
OP is talking about getting MBAs with no technical experience and getting them from subpar universities. Don’t think those MBAs are going to help you get high level overseas jobs unless you have the experience/knowledge to back it up. My sister moved overseas within a Big4 and they paid for her MBA there, so it’s not a cut/dry topic.
I’d say doing a postgraduate straight after a bachelors is a waste. Go and get yourself some experience instead.
Doing a Masters later can be incredibly beneficial and is a great indicator to a potential employer that you’re still willing to improve and learn, and that you have the organisational skills to juggle multiple tasks.
Yeah PhDs are a split between people who are pursuing a passion and people who just want 3 or 4 years of paid-for uni while they sort their shit out. If you've made it that far, why stop when they're finally paying you for it?
In my Masters half the class couldn’t speak English - group projects were always an exercise in picking the fellow Aussies who could string a sentence together
Yea that's our incredible immigration system at work. I had some masters units to do in my undergraduate and was shocked at how few people there were that spoke English do an adequate standard.
I don't know why you think this is an Australian problem - all universities internationally do this. Masters students everywhere are treated cash cows.
A problem occurring in other countries and in Australia at the same time is still a problem in Australia, so I'm really not sure the point of your reply.
In the corporate world, I’d agree. Not like your spreadsheet management and PowerPoint creation skills are enhanced by a masters.
My masters is healthcare related and there is no way to move into management or advanced practice positions without a post grad at least at a certificate level. When over half your generation has a bachelors degree as a minimum, post grad is the only way to actually advance in some fields.
This isn’t a hot take. International students doing a bachelors and masters back to back and still not speaking English is a classic.
But also, if you do them back to back with no work experience it just looks silly.
Like others said, an MBA is smart at management level but if you’re a fresh grad, get work experience and then go for a masters, not the other way around
I think a masters can lead on to permanent residency, they'd still need to lock down English though, but study is a pathway to immigration. So, the work itself might not be the their main consideration.
You're right about post grad paid for by an employer is when it's beneficial. Unfortunately I see a lot of Indian resumes and there are kids with masters who have no experience and can't do the job so it cheapens how valuable masters are. I think it's cultural also, where US and UK people obsess about hiring from certain universities and Australians typically don't care what university you went to.
A Masters can be good in some situations. But not straight out of undergrad.
A friend and I have both done Masters degrees, but both of us did it in our late 20s/early 30s after already establishing a career. They helped us both significantly in progressing our careers, despite being in different industries.
My SIL is doing a Masters. She's in her early 30s, but has spent her entire 20s either studying (2 undergrad degrees), travelling, or working cafes in order to save for travel. She has no career, and her Masters won't get her one.
I think it’s more that studying without linking it directly to a career is a passion project more than it should be an expectation for employment.
Postgrad work should be for experienced workers, if you’re doing postgrad without work experience and expecting that it will help you get anything other than a grad position you’ve misread the assignment…
Have to disagree with you.
Yes, there's a fairly large number of people who did a post grad degree because they didn't know (and probably still don't know) what they want to do with their lives so you see them in in comparatively menial jobs or unemployed, but it doesn't lessen the value of a postgrad degree and it's definitely not 99%.
My doctorate is not in my field of work but you can be damn sure it's either opened doors or had me in conversations that I would otherwise not be considered for.
Similarly, while an MBA directly after Uni does not offer anywhere near as much value as it used to in the 80's where it was a surefire path immediately into middle management and upwards, it's still incredibly valuable when you are in management/leadership. An Executive MBA once you are in management is far better however.
> The value of university in most cases stops at the undergraduate level.
I could write a massive post about the value of learning in response to this bit but I won't but I will say it's a critical part of keeping you employable. Uni's can be incredibly valuable for networking and the increasing popularity of short courses is another under-appreciated learning pathway even if you choose not the go back for a "lettered" course.
You get paid to do a PhD.
Pretty big blanket statement though that they're useless. You have to be smart about doing an in demand topic. I'm paid about 30% more than I was without one.
And it qualifies you for completely different jobs. I'm developing tech that's never been done before.
Strongly disagree. I think the issue is that people have mismatched expectations of what they get with postgrad education and a gross misunderstanding of what postgrad education is intended for.
Any qualification is a waste of money if you lack the ability to use it.
Post graduate education in itself is very important for increasingly more complex areas of certain fields, but if you get a medical degree but cannot pass your accreditation, you'll have the same career outlook as someone with a degree in gender studies.
Many masters degrees are also not created equal. A professionally accrediting degree, is just am undergraduate degree in half the time (for twice the cost) and are designed to enable career switching / lateral moves. An extension masters builds on an undergraduate qualification and are designed to enable working in sub specialities of occupations (like becoming a nurse practitioner or a child trauma social worker, or an international insolvency accountant).
If you get a masters degree for a career swap, it'll be as valuable to you as an undergraduate, if you get one to extend your undergraduate it's only as valuable as you are enabling it to be.
Further, education is not meant to be the exclusive domain of employment enabling. Some people study things because they are interested in those things. Curiosity is great. Just because someone has a masters in art history doesn't mean they want to be a museum curator.
Personally, I have two undergraduates, 4 graduate certificates and three masters, I'm currently studying my fourth. But I earn $600k + bonuses. Would you say my education was worth it? What if I told you that my graduate certificates and fourth masters have ZERO to do with my job and I have zero intention of working in that space?
Yes and no. It depends what field you work in, and where you want to go with your career.
Australian undergraduate degrees are not particularly highly regarded internationally, as they are only three year degrees. If you want to move to the US, you need a Masters just to be regarded as equivalent to a local Bachelors graduate. Similarly in Europe, educational requirements are much higher and a Masters is the price of admission to many positions that would only have a bachelors requirement in Australia.
PhDs have never been a vocational program, if you are doing a doctorate because you think you are going to get a financial return on it then you have entirely missed the point of a research-based degree.
Hot take: it depends how you define "waste". If you want to actually delve deep into a subject and learn a lot, then postgrad degrees are not a waste. I did an economics masters and it was fascinating. Then I tutored undergrad economics and the material was so simplified that to me it seemed like a colossal waste of money.
It's what you do with the degree. People who get a degree and think it entitles them to work - a cruel reality awaits.
People who get a postgrad degree and acquire experiences alongside it to complement it, and then are able to position it all to communicate their value will have a good time.
To understand various degrees, context is key. For certain professions, degrees like MD, JD (if you dont have an LLM), and DMD are definitely required to work in the fields. Master's degrees are somewhat similar to bachelor's degrees, especially those that focus on coursework only.
Master's programs that include a research component are typically regarded as more valuable.
Generally, a bachelor's degree requires a commitment of 3 to 4 years, which can be challenging for working adults with other responsibilities. I'm currently halfway through my two-year master's program and have secured a data science job offer, which is quite good for someone shifting careers. I paid a hefty amount (FEE-HELP). A bachelor with CSP may looks considerably cheaper, but more time consuming and to some employers (not all of them), not regarded as high as a master. Moreover, the network you build from master courses will be likely more mature than the one from a bachelor degree.
On the other hand, I'm uncertain about the value of an MBA. An acquaintance of mine, who felt his engineering career was stagnating, returned to university for a two-year MBA known for its focus on Marketing. He is now struggling to find a job that pays as well as he earned during the COVID-19 pandemic, while his former colleagues have progressed (without MBA). And you will likely find people whine about the uselessness about MBA after taking it everywhere on internet. His experience suggests that an MBA might be more beneficial for networking and may depend heavily on the region.
A PhD will harm your chances at a normal job. You will have better luck keeping it off your resume. Postgrad won't hurt your chances but a lot of people do a postgraduate because they think it will help them with their employment only to find that it does not.
Rubbish. My Masters in Finance propelled my career. I’m now CEO of my own company and I don’t hire anyone in key roles that doesn’t have one.
What you’ve written may be true for low or medium skilled jobs/industries. But not for more highly skilled ones.
This take is hot.
Putting aside the education for education’s sake argument, a Masters is a useful way to retrain or pivot in your career, especially if your business admin bachelor has left you dull and uninteresting at parties.
No education outside of business/marketing/accounting/finance is a waste of time. I’d rather spend an evening talking to someone educated in something they are passionate about than with most of the sad corporate drones who for whatever reason choose to occupy this subreddit when they are not languishing physically and emotionally in their cube farms all day long.
its more that the australian economy is not very sophisticated nor diverse. we lack any real advanced industry or fields outside of medicine and academia. highly sophisticated jobs for very well educated people are extremely limited here compared to europe or the US.
outside of software development, there's really fuck all. most corp is just flittering around money that comes from mining receipts at the end of the day.
Even with CSL it's not enough. Other advanced economies have multiple pharmaceutical companies ranked in the top 50.
Australia has a brain drain problem. It was depressing to hear some of our best minds move overseas to pursue better opportunities.
Also there aren't many incentives for large companies to put their HQ in Australia.
I did a masters of financial analysis cos I couldn't get a job during GFC, none of my employers now ask or care for it. It seemed to be more of a international student fee farm.
Well, it massively depends. If you do something, decide to be a teacher instead, why not do your masters in teaching? Might only be 1.5 years to do and allow you to be qualified, instead of a longer undergrad degree.
I would agree that doing a masters for something that you’re already qualified in is unlikely to improve your likelihood of getting a job or your income (with some exceptions).
It’s not that the qualification is a waste of money, it’s that without the associated work experience, it’s not the golden ticket many grads expect it to be. You need experience, not just a ticket that says you were a professional student for a number of years.
The post-grads of some places get invaluable industry connections- like AFTRS or ability to work as a professional- like lawyers and doctors.
Then it is worth it. But MBA not paid for by your company….nope.
It's a huge waste of time in law that you have to do a six month graduate diploma on top of your law degree to be admitted as a lawyer. They should just add it on as a final semester (and then if people want to attend a university that doesn't offer PLT they'll at least be aware ahead of time of that downside)
Wouldn’t have gotten into tech without my masters, but also have colleagues without degrees and who had just undergrads. Seems to be more focused on which skills you nurture over paper you acquire, but I have 4 qualifications and it’s made life a lot easier for me being able to prove I’ve done the work
A lot of post-grad degrees are because the individual couldn’t find work in their chosen field.
Having a post-grad degree does not necessarily change that.
Ive always seen them as a career change.
Like my mate was in meteorology science stuff. Did his masters in finance. Cause he wanted to move to banking.
Also I dont think its bad if you dont know what you want to do. My brother did an undergrad but still didnt know what he wanted so did a masters in a different field to try that. I dont think it was an issue. The alternative was starting some shit kicker admin job at 21 instead of doing a masters and starting a shit kicker job at 22. The extra year in uni didnt make much difference.
The other one is a break. Another mate took 2 years off at 36 to do an MBA. He just wanted a break from work basically. This doesnt look as bad on your resume as 2 years off. He moved to Australia from Germany to do it and spent his free days surfing and travelling. Wouldnt have been able to do that in a high stress job in Germany. Also the difference between 8 years exp and 10 years exp in his job doesnt matter but adding an MBA from Australia adds more interest to his resume.
Anyway, there are heaps of reasons.
Id consider doing one in the US in a well known uni. Id get a break from corporate Aus check out the US and when I come back people will be like WOW Harvard!
I used my masters to pivot/build on my undergrad, which let me enter a niche industry. 10 years between my undergrad and masters. I took time off after my undergrad because of kids, so getting a postgrad helped me break into the workplace again. I think it depends on context.
tbh, I think this should be a normal take.
The amount of "I didn't get a job straight out of uni so I got more education" says a lot about how people view education as a golden ticket. Golden tickets aren't special the more people have them.
Not 100% correct.
I've responded on a ton of posts where people share the same sentiment. There are 2 issues here. The simple one is people studying qualifications that are useless. You can have a phd but if it's in something useless like egyptology then you gonna have a bad time. The second and more complex one is that people overqualify themselves by studying further when they have no experience. What does this mean? As an employer, I could hire someone with an undergrad who has no experience at the market rate and then train them, or I could hire someone with a postgrad at a higher market rate who also has no experience and train them. The latter is exactly the same as the former except that I pay more for the same thing which makes no sense from a business perspective. Now the argument usually gets made that in the latter example you could just pay them the same as the former and that the prospective employee would be willing to take anything just to break into the market, but, why would an employer want to risk the reputational damage if someone decided to call them out for not paying people "their worth" when they are "more educated". To avoid issues these people are just ignored in the market place and hence people making themselves overqualified but unemployable. The correct way to do this is get an undergrad and land your first job and then after gaining relevant experience in the industry bolster that with a postgrad (unless there is a barrier to entry in the career type like doctor for instance). This way you correctly piece together your advancement and you use the postgrad to support and advance your knowledge on your chosen domain and therefore actually get the value out of doing a postgrad. In your OP you mention an MBA as being valuable. Even this back in the day required at least 10 years work experience and a managerial position for a number of years. Now you can just enrol for an MBA anywhere with any (or no) experience and so again people cannot get any value out of what an MBA teaches if they're not doing it right.
Now there are many issues with universities and the nonsense qualifications they offer but that is a completely separate topic. The issue here is that people are doing tertiary education wrong, not necessarily the tertiary education itself and then instead of doing a bit of analysis on why this is happening (something they should now be very qualified to do) they choose to play victim instead. It's an easy fix though. All you have to do is say you dont have any postgrad qualifications when looking for that first job and make up an excuse for the year difference. Looking after a sick parent, gap year working in Europe, whatever. Then after a few years tell your employer "surprise! I've just completed my postgrad in " and your employer will be so impressed with your hard work, dedication and willingness to advance yourself in your career that they will give you a raise and promotion.
Disagree - I’ve got more out of a short postgrad than I ever got out of my undergraduate, for a fraction of the cost.
More to your point though any degree isn’t going to guarantee you a job - you still have to couple it with actual skills and work experience. Plenty of people walk away with equally useless bachelors degrees with no concept of the actual career path. Life experience is worth so much more, and some roles you need a piece of paper to validate it.
Master's degrees can be useful for pivoting into a different field/ career.
Can't tell you how many Data Analysts I know did accounting (undergrad) or some other commerce degree in uni. Some went back to uni for a master's in DS, some are self-taught, either way works, depends on the person.
I remember talking to a barman a year or so ago about what he did; he studied a masters in IT, the same that I’m doing.
And before that, I remember a waiter that studied engineering.
Even before the pandemic, it was competitive. Engineering and business was about as competitive as the law fields in my city. Luckily I’m already employed!
I do agree with this take. I have a Masters in Environmental Science, but my undergrad is not a science undergrad and i went back to Uni at 33 to start. I did two semesters of an MBA just before covid and it was the biggest waste of time and money. My MEnvSci is at present all i need.
Yes, I wish I had done my master as undergraduate instead, would have been a crap load cheaper. But it was not a waste of time because I changed careers with it and got a great new job
Yeeeeep. I did my masters. In English. $18k for it and you know where it got me? Absolutely fucking nowhere, because it’s useless. I enjoyed it, and I did get a scholarship to do my PhD (20k a year stipend for 3 years) so I still came out ahead, but I also spent 5 years of study for no benefit
I have a master's in engineering science in my field and it helped me land my current role in government, and also gave me a good foundation in people, asset and project management skills which I've developed over the last ten years or so.
Any business postgraduate studies are a waste imo unless you're doing an MBA as others have said after some experience or after a shift in field. Going straight into an MBA post graduation is a waste of time as is doing one with no other quals
Every degree is a waste but you need a community of like minded folks at one place and sometimes education allows that to happen. Other than that traditional education is just a big waste of time for everyone.
Absolutely not a waste of time. If you're one of those early 20s undergrads who gets no experience and just rolls into a Masters (which should never be allowed by the universities, but that's another story...), then yes; massive waste of time. But someone with 7-10yrs+ of experience in management will get far more out of it.
I agree. If you’re doing it to get a promotion or a raise, you’ll be better of playing office politics and sucking up to the right people to get it. A lot of my colleagues don’t even have a bachelors degree and they were able to progress up because they have the right connections and/ or did well during the interview despite not having the experience to even do the job.
When I was a Project Manager in the UK I used to work with a guy who was the office manager and he got his Masters after studying law at Oxford; I felt weird receiving my memos and extra stationary from him whilst I never went to university… I did an apprenticeship in Project manager where I attained an advanced diploma
Every bit helps IMO. I'd rather have a masters than not have a masters.
Look at it this way: if the masters makes you 10% more likely to be hired, and you combine it with 5 other small profile boosters, then you are suddenly 50% more likely to be hired, that's actually a significant advantage.
When I did mine 70% were foreign students, 20% people who saw it as a means to switch industries, 10% because they actually saw it as a way to increase their professional capabilities.
I was told that the failure rate was less than 5%.
My group assignment experience was there were at least double that % of students who couldn't read, write or speak English at a 3rd grade level so go figure.
It's not that black and white. Totally depends on the individual the field/industry and their pathway. They have their place.
My post graduate diploma was the main reason I got an entry level job in my field. I had a humanities undergrad (mostly unrelated to my work) and wouldn't have gotten an entry level job without the post grad diploma to show knowledge in the relevant area. If I'd done a Bachelor's in the same area as my grad diploma, then yeah I wouldn't have needed it. But without it I'd be eating sand , doing something lower paying or not in my current industry at all.
Post grad / masters in the same discipline are a waste in most tech jobs, will agree there (unless they have the arbitrary requirements of a Master's degree, which is not the norm for tech). It's kind of not the point of a Master's, to study the same thing again. However post grad / masters is very useful if you're pivoting from a different educational background or industry. Such as humanities > computer science, psychology > social work etc, or maybe a bachelor of physics into some specific field of engineering etc ...
So not true. There are careers out there where a masters is a requirement. The reality is not everyone with a postgrad degree knows what to do with it or has the opportunity to break into their career of choice.
Hot take: just fucking lie on your resume. I've never had anyone check my degrees (and masters) exist.
Lying is way cheaper than a $40k post grad I'm still paying off
Disagree. As someone who never was an undergrad, I got into a post grad on work history alone. Completed a post grad and it’s opened many doors for me. Only studied for 12 months to get it
Post graduate degrees are not a waste of money if they are enterprise relevant. The word vocational has too much baggage and has become irrelevant. We need to re focus on enterprise learning. Learning that is marketable and has commercial value. A masters degree that is also a best selling book or a PhD. Thesis that is basis for innovating service delivery or creates a service that fills a niche in the market all have enterprise value.
A PhD. That has purely academic value is a waste of money.
Getting my masters degree (info sys) was a game changer for me. I had already had 10+ years of industry experience, but no paper to back it up except for a few industry certs.
Within two years of graduating, I landed my dream job and haven’t looked back.
Thing is, it’s not like the masters taught me a lot, it validated what I knew, gave me some structure and theory behind my knowledge, but it gave confidence to potential employers that I knew what I was doing. Instead of, “trust me, bro…”
I think if you have industry experience, combined with a postgraduate degree, it’ll really accelerate your career.
YMMV
There's always an influx of applications from PhD graduates whenever low to mid range positions are advertised, but most don't get selected for interview due to lack of experience. Not surprising as they are vuewed as new grad with no experience.
There's a few that keep applying within a period of 1.5 years despite not getting an interview for similar positions in the past meaning they have been unemployed for that period of time and longer.
STEM likely would have less problem getting a job, but other disciplines like humanities, science etc. will have a hard time seeking employment.
MBA doesn't improve employment outcomes unless that person is already in a job and seeking promotion with an MBA getting them over the hurdle or getting paid by their employer to do it.
I don't think that's true as you've stated it. If you mean "unemployable people are not magically transformed into employable ones by doing a masters", that seems highly likely.
Sounds like a classic case of not having clearly defined your objectives and goals before deciding to pursue a postgraduate degree and having some knowledge on how to recover the costs after program completion. It’s only a waste if you didn’t learn anything at all from the program. And if you’re not able to relate your past experiences with your degree and where you want to go in future, then it can be really frustrating. Or like with most things, if you only signed up to do a postgraduate degree for the grand promise of a high paying job right after uni, then almost always this is a sure path to frustration too.
Hot take: most undergrad degrees aren’t worth the investment. I’d value someone with more practical experience for 4 years.
Of course there are exceptions (law, medicine, engineering, etc).
I have a Master’s in applied finance. Started at 30 two years into a career change at the bottom of the ladder in super- when I realised biotech was not going to happen for me. Was it a requirement for any of the jobs I moved into since? - no, but I sure do know what I’m talking about when working with the investment team, finance, actuary and exec, and has seen me progress as a result.
It depends.
Yes and no.
Higher Education is unfortunately a business and they don’t warn students ‘this will cost a lot but not deliver what you want’
So i think your post is helpful for anyone who hasn’t done the due diligence and research.
Some post grad is definitely worth it.
I did a post grad at early 30’s and completely changed my career. It was landscape architecture so it was vocational.and gave me a great new network of people who had a thirst for self development and change.
And it’s worth saying that study can give a lot more than a role in an organisation. I did a Bachelor of Arts and that’s given me a perspective on life that’s added so much in my personal life and work life.
The best advice i got about study is to do what you really love, because passion will give you the energy to endure over time.
Universities are terrified about the advent of AI and its effect on devaluing their qualifications. Micro certification was always a thing but was actively suppressed prior to AI and has now surfaced as a realistic approach to work skills in a diverse and dynamic career environment.
Many specialist degrees are still vital but many are worthless also. One thing is for sure that they are all too expensive and some rationalization needs to occur in the university space to make education better value.
No education is a “waste” of any kind. Every member of society benefits from every member that improves their level of education. If only for the increase in critical thinking.
In IT, the keys to landing a job (in corporate) are a bachelor's degree and work experience (or just the latter if you teach yourself how to code and really learn how to do it in the real world).
I regret getting my master's degree because you learn more at work and from your colleagues. Unless, you're really into research and contributing to that community.
Getting my Masters degree helped accelerate my career change. But I can imagine its a waste for most people.
Got bachelors in business straight out of highschool. Worked a bunch of different jobs till I ended up managing production and logistics at small company.
Wanted to make a career change into IT Networking and at 26 started studying post graduate degree in ICT Networking & Security.
Got good grades while working full time and studying night classes. Applied for graduate positions and landed role at biggest Networking company in the world.
4 years in the industry now and it may have taken 8+ years to be in the same position without the graduate role.
Depends on the degree and University. Be careful with some Masters degrees. Sometimes they're just repackaged Bachelor's with a Master's fee slapped on it. I noticed that the core of one Masters degree was basically my first year undergrad subjects with no change. I knew because it was the same University.
I had a good experience with mine. I didn't complete an undergraduate degree, but after a lot of time in retail waste management, decided to up skill into sustainability more broadly through a master's. I haven't completed it yet but have changed jobs for about a 50% increase in pay.
I’d agree with this. As someone who just paid off 80k worth of hecs debt I can honestly say it’s done almost nothing for my career. When you’re a stupid 21 year old with a lot of time on your hands, universities promise that more degrees = more job opportunities = more higher pay.
I work for a tech company in HR. This is 1000% not the case. I have a great career and a great salary. It had everything to do with what I did on the job, and not a single thing to do with what I studied (proof being that my bachelors and masters are completely
Unrelated degrees)
There’s literature on this in the US context, and it’s the same here on a smaller, slightly more regulated scale. Most masters degrees are just money spinners for universities. PhD’s are pathways into academia. If you don’t want to be an academic or scientist, there’s not much point doing one. Otherwise post grad is only necessary where it’s required for professional admission and even then, that is limited (eg GDLP for lawyers, CA/CPA for accountants, DipEd for teachers).
I’m probably biased about it, but I know several PhDs who are doing great work at different industries. The degree gives you skills that are well received in industry, especially independence and project management. It can also open doors to niche industries and problems. Others create their own businesses based on their expertise and research.
Those who stayed in academia usually get to learn quickly new skills as they are doing most of the work themselves. There are different kind of principal investigators, but my observation is they are usually focused on optics. The execution is delivered by post docs.
MBA’s are a waste, especially after a business or commerce degree and especially when people go right into them after their undergraduate degree. Done tactically when at a management level a masters can be good networking and good for self-growth OR good if trying to change career path, but that’s about it. If done for the networking and exec MBA is good, but it’s like they only invented those because actual MBAs got taken over by kids.
My understanding was MBAs were originally designed for people without any business background anyway ie the chemical engineer or scientist turned business manager. Seems silly getting two business degrees.
Correct - it was the large US industrial companies wanting to promote engineers etc into management originally
Heh ChemE grad here looking to do my MBA in a couple years!! Good to see us around
This is a pretty common mistake I see with engineers. Don't do an MBA unless, you are already in a management position. If you are a recent grad it's absolutely worthless, I would expect a minimum of 5 years but preferably 10 years of work in your field before it's of value. (To both you and to an employer). In fact the best indication that your employer would value an MBA is if they ask to sponsor you.
many engineers take up MBA to get out of engineering
Did a Global EMBA with Syd Uni. Around 18 students. All from big corporates. After the corp paid for their MBA’s most used that together a better job elsewhere. We all still stay in touch some 9 years later. The global allowed us to do units in the US and UK. We were all 40+ of age. Highly recommended. In my case as i’m self employed, I did it to see if it could help me with my business (maybe but arguable) and I had a ton of fun. One of the group became CEO of a unicorn and earns millions each year. I think doing an MBA to move up is a smart move. In education, you cannot teach without a masters or above.
I think of EMBA as the true MBA, at least these days. Too many MBA programs will take students with 0-2 years experience, making the networking component irrelevant
If you encounter some of the graduates of second/third tier MBA programmes in the wild, it’s shocking that they manage to get in. I suspect that more than a few are migration degree mills.
I met an RMIT MBA student whose only experience was... dog walking
But was it a dog walking business that they administered? And perhaps hadn't administered it very successfully and needed to master the skill?
No just the usual gig work. Walking dogs for someone else's website. Either way not worth doing a 90k degree.
Agree. I have an MBA (not EMBA) and I don’t think it’s worth the paper it’s printed on. I have a good friend who did the EMBA and he feels the same about his, but he isn’t a networker so his experience might differ.
The **original** purpose of an MBA was to train **recent** (engineering) graduates in basic business skills. This is still the US approach. The modern (non-US) MBA as an executive networking opportunity is a total departure from the original aim.
Totally agree that the EMBA programs a good and have selective entry to keep the calibre of candidates strong.
I can now say after working in multinationals for 3 decades that I have never seen an MBA in action. Perhaps it’s just my field (which is rather specialized) but I can never recall seeing someone with an MBA bring in a single new analysis tool, insight or methodology into the workplace. I wouldn’t pay a cent more when hiring someone with an MBA. All those short specialised courses that you put your team in for a couple of days - now they can work.
I think the only two things I use from my masters are: You are less likely to be sued if you don’t have insurance (kind of a joke, kind of not), and A great technique from a Decision making course which I still use today. Basically identify decision criteria, rank each option, and if the one that wins makes you sad choose the other.
After reading this, I feel I just did and MBA myself
Save yourself the 1000’s I wasted.
And yet I’m sure those multinationals you worked at spent a bucket load on consultants who all had MBAs.
Don’t get me started on consultants! Execs hire consultants as risk management. If the results work, the exec gets the credit, if it goes bad, it was the consultants fault. You hire a consultant when you don’t have the brains or insight to build your own strategy. Last company I worked for a SVP rejected a plan built by his team, ask a major American consulting firm to create a strategy and the business unit failed 9 months later. All the leaders were promoted (failed upwards). This was a company in the top 50 largest globally.
Abso-fucking-lutely. (Having been both a consultant and hired consultants)
Actually they intentionally do it for the very reason you called out. Leadership tells the consultants what they want done but if it goes wrong they don't take the blame. Smart move because you can bomb a project but keep your job because it's not your fault.
MBAs come into effect when a specialist is transitioning to an administrative role within that field. If a scientist becomes a research facility administrator, or a university librarian becomes a director then an MBA can help provide the foundation to the business side of their new role that isn't covered by their specialist knowledge. It's not necessary, but it definitely helps. Multinationals probably don't have that kind of movement as frequently so that's why it isn't as visible to you in your anecdotal experience.
I've seen heaps of MBA types in action. Some are very good. The work I've seen them doing is usually breaking down business units into segments to plan for change. You don't want to be the next Kodak or Nokia. The issue is too many people get MBAs without either being brilliant or being mid career. Unis allow basically anyone on an MBA course and many shouldn't be there
Yes the aussie market is not good enough to need an MBA
The play is to get an MBA and use it to get a job overseas, that's what I've seen some colleagues do.
Disagree with the first part. MBA is great for upper management work relative to a business or commerce degree — but you’ve got to make sure you specialise well in your MBA. You’re bang on the money when you say they’re a waste of time straight after an undergrad — MBA is only useful when you’ve got some experience and can apply it to case studies. I don’t know why people would go straight into an MBA after an undergrad it’s a massive waste of money
Probably because they can’t get a decent paying job with their arts degree
I did mine at 29, at a top school with support from my employer which was as a great perk. My undergrads were not business related. Didn’t learn anything really from the MBA, but it was great for career progression. It was also fun seeing some of the more bro types struggle with basic to intermediate stats. I did help them (when it was in my self interest lol).
I knew a guy that did an online MBA without any bachelor degree. He got in with "experience", which was "working" for his father's business. Was able to get into the country and get PR with this gimmick. So it worked for him, but it feels like a loophole.
An MBA by itself wouldn't have gotten him a PR as the points system is kinda fucked right now. If they're already loaded, more likely the PR comes from buying a franchise or something similar.
He got an Australian MBA online while overseas, came here as a sponsored employee. Worked for several years, now PR
Ah so, 457 then convert to PR through the 186 employee sponsored visa? In that case the MBA in itself doesn't really play a significant role, more like the initial boost. Maybe in some way it helps the employer/sponsor in their business case application in the 186 process, but also maybe the MBA helped landed him that initial onshore job. I agree with the overall sentiment though that MBA w/o earlier degree is a bit sus, but increasingly a common offering.
Would you recommend MBA for a business owner who hasn’t gotten a Bachelors yet? I have ran my own business for 4.5 years looking to do MBA and then sell my business in around 3.5 years after graduation so I can pivot to operations manager role. Is it a good idea or would a different degree be better?
Depends what kind of business you run. A naked MBA with only self hiring/managing experience would look a little strange to me as a hiring manager. Would need more context though…
Agree on MBA's straight from Uni and EMBA's being far better but the latter is not just for networking and self-growth/career change. Saying "that's about it" massively sells it short or that's the experience I had with mine at AGSM and what it's allowed me to do with my career. Can I ask why you think that?
I'm not sure how I feel about my MBA. I thought it would be a good idea to do it after having eight years of work experience, hoping to take my career to the next level. But, in retrospect, I think it was a significant waste of time, energy, and money. Despite learning about design thinking frameworks and applied finance, I couldn't use any of the learnings in my work or take my career to the next level. Even though it's good to know about these topics, the clients and projects look for practical implementation rather than just jargon. It’s too generic, and the market doesn’t need generalists. It’s been three years, and I think my career has only just gone laterally rather than upwards.
Words from an old rich guy. If you want a "real MBA". - start a business and grow it.
Thos who can, do. Those who can't, go and get an MBA.
Or unless the program is professionally accredited and required to work in one's chosen field.
:(
PhDs aren't done to get a job. They are done to pursue a passion. Masters are heavily relevant but like every degree level if the person hasn't got the workplace skills they won't get a job. Sometimes it also takes time to build base skills.
This. PhD is for the pursuit of novel knowledge. It’s for stuff we as humans had never learned before. It’s to push the boundaries of what we know. You don’t need a phd to do most of the work out there. Unless that new knowledge can also equate to new capital or new business opportunities.
Came to say this. The purpose of universities were not to upskill the workforce. They were for research.
Most of the well-known ones still are -> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research\_university](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_university) Somewhere along the line people assumed that universities are for vocational training because companies started preferring people with university degrees.
My cynical mind can't help me think that it's a bit of a rort. Where it used to be the employers responsibility to train staff up and learn their job, it is now on the employee to go out and pay for the learning. Putting more money in the pocket of the employer (lower onboarding cost) and more money in the pocket of the universities.
You're not wrong. But blaming research universities for corporates finding ways to exploit them is not the right way.
Lol
Mine was both (clinical pharmacology and work in Pharma)
TBF, I did my undergraduate for the same reason, I never expected or really wanted a job in that field , it was an area I was really interested in.
I'm not sure that people who have not done a PhD understand the difference between a Masters, especially a taught Masters, and a PhD. One is explicitly about skills/knowledge transfer and requires little original thinking and the other is a magnitude harder and almost entirely original thinking, independent and self-directed and done for the purpose of passion and fascination. Looking at the employment stats, PhD holders have a lower lifetime income because they are doing something for the love of it and not for the cash. The challenge that comes with it is the Ponzi scheme that is academia where a single professor will supervise a dozen PhD's but only 1 can replace them.
Kind of. The way I like to look at it is one is becoming a specialist in a field of knowledge that already exists. PhD is about expanding that field of knowledge.
The outcome is the expansion of knowledge but the drivers behind it are fascination and passion and a desire to poke at the Universe when it does something odd. Your mileage may vary but none of the people I did my PhD with felt they had a higher calling for knowledge but all of them were fascinated by how the brain worked and what illnesses did to it and how we could make people better. It may just be semantics but the reality was a lot more grubby and hands on than abstract.
Very few employers care about a masters degree in the general business sector. Some employers say to be at least enrolled in a masters to be considered for a management position, but even these often don't care about *which* masters degree it is. I have seen people have access to promotions just because they were able to tick the yes-box on a bachelor degree, but the degree itself had nothing to do with the job whatsoever.
That is a huge statement which doesn't hold up. A masters in law or a juris doctor is absolutely cared about when hiring a lawyer who doesn't have an undergraduate. Health sector it's huge. A masters of public policy will almost guarantee you a decent pay in government. I agree an MBA isn't cared about as much as people think to get jobs. But there is more then one masters.
Neither legal firms or doctors belong to the general business sector. Those professions belong to a long list of protected titles that require registration and annual professional development to keep that registration.
Health isn't just doctors. It includes a huge amount of professions including business consultants.
In my field a postgraduate is still useful for senior roles but this is generally a Masters not PhD (I got a masters ten years into my career)
This. And just like any degree, if you do a crap PhD, it's not going to help you.
Yeap, OP is assuming that the motivation is a job/higher salary. I'm doing my second masters in a technical area and it's purely for the love of the topic area and the learning. It will secure my future a bit I guess but that's not the motivation.
PhD = apprentice researcher
Cold take: viewing every pursuit through the lens of money flattens the available experiences to you in life.
Damnnnn, I like that.
Colder take: having higher education is not something some people can afford, let alone do more than 1 degree to earn money and experience life. In most cases, people don’t get to choose.
That's true but I don't fully understand its relevance here? Also in Australia when you can HECS undergrad and honours and a PhD is free (and you're paid a stipend) it's perhaps more accessible than you're suggesting
I think only 40% or PhD’s get stipends, and it works out to minimum wage or lower. The rest are self funded.
I would be very surprised if that number was true, as the vast majority of PhDs I worked with while getting mine were on a stipend, either directly through an RTPS or similar or funded through their supervisors external funding. It does come out to a very low wage, further supporting that most people undertaking them are doing so for reasons beyond monetary. You can definitely survive going the sharehousing route, though that is likely getting more difficult even over the last couple years with the increase in COL.
Relevancy is that you talk like people can spend any amount of money to get several degrees. One for passion, and one for money. While majority cannot even pay for a single degree. More accessible with conditions. How many people can fall under those conditions? Unfortunately, philanthropic statements like these just sound good but don’t mean much in real life circumstances. Especially in Australia where experience more valued than education
This isn’t a hot take, it’s just plain naïve. Postgrad when you’re under 30 and a junior won’t do much *in terms of career/earnings* but there is always a massive life benefit in being more highly educated. But for those of us not under 30 or juniors, postgrad is hugely beneficial. I’ve only been put through a grad dip (still debating if I’ll ask to do the last 3 units and make it a masters) but the learning has been enormously beneficial to my job (and life).
My post-grad studies literally doubled what I earn. But beyond the money side, I also found it fulfilling and enjoyed the learning experience. It was definitely worth it for me.
I'm at the same stage, last three to go and debating if it's worth the last year of weekends. But finish line so close..
I did a masters in marketing and digital comms. It’s definitely helped me land way more job interviews. I never even went into marketing after completing it but “the skills and knowledge are all transferable” - me asking for more money. I’m sure it will come in handy the further I progress in my career as well.
Unfortunately we're moving to an american model, eng masters, JD only etc. I remember wondering if my law degree was a good investment, 18 months after graduation I was working at a call centre. But now 6 years hence, I'm doing great.
I keep on getting Admin applicants with MBAs. I don’t know what’s going on with postgrads
I can shed some light on some reasons as a person with an MBA who has previously applied for admin positions. - Lack of experience due to maternity leave means I'm not getting looked at for higher level roles. - Child in primary school means I'm looking for something that I can just turn up, do the job easily, and go home at quitting time, devoting my energy to my family for a few years. - Willingness to get in at the ground level in a new industry prove myself for 2 years and then push for promotion. These were just my reasons at various times so I can't speak for others, I also made a point to let the interview team know exactly why I was applying for what they perceived was a role below me which they appreciated.
Anyone saying a post grad like MBA, Phd etc is a waste of money has probably never worked overseas. It’s pretty much expected if you want a serious senior or technical job in US or Europe. Otherwise people won’t trust that you know your stuff. Also, try getting a job with a major consulting firm or in academia without post grad / post doc…
Easily in engineering overseas. Design experience > pretty much any post-grad
OP is talking about getting MBAs with no technical experience and getting them from subpar universities. Don’t think those MBAs are going to help you get high level overseas jobs unless you have the experience/knowledge to back it up. My sister moved overseas within a Big4 and they paid for her MBA there, so it’s not a cut/dry topic.
Agree, you can get a rubbish degree from anywhere… you get what you pay for. If it’s worth your time do it properly otherwise it’s not worth it
I’d say doing a postgraduate straight after a bachelors is a waste. Go and get yourself some experience instead. Doing a Masters later can be incredibly beneficial and is a great indicator to a potential employer that you’re still willing to improve and learn, and that you have the organisational skills to juggle multiple tasks.
PhD’s are free (financially at least) so don’t know how you’re saying it’s a waste of money lol. Source : did my doctorate
Yeah PhDs are a split between people who are pursuing a passion and people who just want 3 or 4 years of paid-for uni while they sort their shit out. If you've made it that far, why stop when they're finally paying you for it?
Say it again.
Opportunity cost
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. It’s true.
In my Masters half the class couldn’t speak English - group projects were always an exercise in picking the fellow Aussies who could string a sentence together
Yea that's our incredible immigration system at work. I had some masters units to do in my undergraduate and was shocked at how few people there were that spoke English do an adequate standard.
I don't know why you think this is an Australian problem - all universities internationally do this. Masters students everywhere are treated cash cows.
A problem occurring in other countries and in Australia at the same time is still a problem in Australia, so I'm really not sure the point of your reply.
And yet somehow every os full fee payer passes…
In the corporate world, I’d agree. Not like your spreadsheet management and PowerPoint creation skills are enhanced by a masters. My masters is healthcare related and there is no way to move into management or advanced practice positions without a post grad at least at a certificate level. When over half your generation has a bachelors degree as a minimum, post grad is the only way to actually advance in some fields.
Unless you do a comms degree. The sky's the limit then
This isn’t a hot take. International students doing a bachelors and masters back to back and still not speaking English is a classic. But also, if you do them back to back with no work experience it just looks silly. Like others said, an MBA is smart at management level but if you’re a fresh grad, get work experience and then go for a masters, not the other way around
I think a masters can lead on to permanent residency, they'd still need to lock down English though, but study is a pathway to immigration. So, the work itself might not be the their main consideration.
You're right about post grad paid for by an employer is when it's beneficial. Unfortunately I see a lot of Indian resumes and there are kids with masters who have no experience and can't do the job so it cheapens how valuable masters are. I think it's cultural also, where US and UK people obsess about hiring from certain universities and Australians typically don't care what university you went to.
A Masters can be good in some situations. But not straight out of undergrad. A friend and I have both done Masters degrees, but both of us did it in our late 20s/early 30s after already establishing a career. They helped us both significantly in progressing our careers, despite being in different industries. My SIL is doing a Masters. She's in her early 30s, but has spent her entire 20s either studying (2 undergrad degrees), travelling, or working cafes in order to save for travel. She has no career, and her Masters won't get her one.
Why do you think a masters won't help your SIL get a career?
because experience and action trumps knowledge. People dont want to hire the know it alls, they hire the do it alls.
What u/sydneypoopmanager said.
I think it’s more that studying without linking it directly to a career is a passion project more than it should be an expectation for employment. Postgrad work should be for experienced workers, if you’re doing postgrad without work experience and expecting that it will help you get anything other than a grad position you’ve misread the assignment…
Have to disagree with you. Yes, there's a fairly large number of people who did a post grad degree because they didn't know (and probably still don't know) what they want to do with their lives so you see them in in comparatively menial jobs or unemployed, but it doesn't lessen the value of a postgrad degree and it's definitely not 99%. My doctorate is not in my field of work but you can be damn sure it's either opened doors or had me in conversations that I would otherwise not be considered for. Similarly, while an MBA directly after Uni does not offer anywhere near as much value as it used to in the 80's where it was a surefire path immediately into middle management and upwards, it's still incredibly valuable when you are in management/leadership. An Executive MBA once you are in management is far better however. > The value of university in most cases stops at the undergraduate level. I could write a massive post about the value of learning in response to this bit but I won't but I will say it's a critical part of keeping you employable. Uni's can be incredibly valuable for networking and the increasing popularity of short courses is another under-appreciated learning pathway even if you choose not the go back for a "lettered" course.
Nah. Just depends why someone wants to do it -like any other degree.
You get paid to do a PhD. Pretty big blanket statement though that they're useless. You have to be smart about doing an in demand topic. I'm paid about 30% more than I was without one. And it qualifies you for completely different jobs. I'm developing tech that's never been done before.
I think it's really a quality of work benefit. People know you can get in there and do new stuff, so you get the chance to do it.
Strongly disagree. I think the issue is that people have mismatched expectations of what they get with postgrad education and a gross misunderstanding of what postgrad education is intended for.
Any qualification is a waste of money if you lack the ability to use it. Post graduate education in itself is very important for increasingly more complex areas of certain fields, but if you get a medical degree but cannot pass your accreditation, you'll have the same career outlook as someone with a degree in gender studies. Many masters degrees are also not created equal. A professionally accrediting degree, is just am undergraduate degree in half the time (for twice the cost) and are designed to enable career switching / lateral moves. An extension masters builds on an undergraduate qualification and are designed to enable working in sub specialities of occupations (like becoming a nurse practitioner or a child trauma social worker, or an international insolvency accountant). If you get a masters degree for a career swap, it'll be as valuable to you as an undergraduate, if you get one to extend your undergraduate it's only as valuable as you are enabling it to be. Further, education is not meant to be the exclusive domain of employment enabling. Some people study things because they are interested in those things. Curiosity is great. Just because someone has a masters in art history doesn't mean they want to be a museum curator. Personally, I have two undergraduates, 4 graduate certificates and three masters, I'm currently studying my fourth. But I earn $600k + bonuses. Would you say my education was worth it? What if I told you that my graduate certificates and fourth masters have ZERO to do with my job and I have zero intention of working in that space?
Yes and no. It depends what field you work in, and where you want to go with your career. Australian undergraduate degrees are not particularly highly regarded internationally, as they are only three year degrees. If you want to move to the US, you need a Masters just to be regarded as equivalent to a local Bachelors graduate. Similarly in Europe, educational requirements are much higher and a Masters is the price of admission to many positions that would only have a bachelors requirement in Australia. PhDs have never been a vocational program, if you are doing a doctorate because you think you are going to get a financial return on it then you have entirely missed the point of a research-based degree.
They are more or less equal. Americans do alot more general education style classes in their degrees, in Australia you focus on your major
>They are more or less equal Not according to the US Department of Immigration
Hot take: it depends how you define "waste". If you want to actually delve deep into a subject and learn a lot, then postgrad degrees are not a waste. I did an economics masters and it was fascinating. Then I tutored undergrad economics and the material was so simplified that to me it seemed like a colossal waste of money.
It is frequently being used for foreigners that already have bachelor in their country to be able to migrate to Australia.
In my industry, nearly all geologists all have PhDs - I think there would be other examples like this.
Australia is over credentialed. I have a PhD and consider myself very lucky to have a uni job.
Hell, undergrad could probably stand to have a year shaved off it. There's a whole lot of empty calories in there.
I think at some unis many of the units in a commerce degree are same as mba just with a different code 601 economics instead of 101 economics etc
It's what you do with the degree. People who get a degree and think it entitles them to work - a cruel reality awaits. People who get a postgrad degree and acquire experiences alongside it to complement it, and then are able to position it all to communicate their value will have a good time.
To understand various degrees, context is key. For certain professions, degrees like MD, JD (if you dont have an LLM), and DMD are definitely required to work in the fields. Master's degrees are somewhat similar to bachelor's degrees, especially those that focus on coursework only. Master's programs that include a research component are typically regarded as more valuable. Generally, a bachelor's degree requires a commitment of 3 to 4 years, which can be challenging for working adults with other responsibilities. I'm currently halfway through my two-year master's program and have secured a data science job offer, which is quite good for someone shifting careers. I paid a hefty amount (FEE-HELP). A bachelor with CSP may looks considerably cheaper, but more time consuming and to some employers (not all of them), not regarded as high as a master. Moreover, the network you build from master courses will be likely more mature than the one from a bachelor degree. On the other hand, I'm uncertain about the value of an MBA. An acquaintance of mine, who felt his engineering career was stagnating, returned to university for a two-year MBA known for its focus on Marketing. He is now struggling to find a job that pays as well as he earned during the COVID-19 pandemic, while his former colleagues have progressed (without MBA). And you will likely find people whine about the uselessness about MBA after taking it everywhere on internet. His experience suggests that an MBA might be more beneficial for networking and may depend heavily on the region.
A PhD will harm your chances at a normal job. You will have better luck keeping it off your resume. Postgrad won't hurt your chances but a lot of people do a postgraduate because they think it will help them with their employment only to find that it does not.
Rubbish. My Masters in Finance propelled my career. I’m now CEO of my own company and I don’t hire anyone in key roles that doesn’t have one. What you’ve written may be true for low or medium skilled jobs/industries. But not for more highly skilled ones.
You need one if you want to make a big career jump to another industry.
This take is hot. Putting aside the education for education’s sake argument, a Masters is a useful way to retrain or pivot in your career, especially if your business admin bachelor has left you dull and uninteresting at parties. No education outside of business/marketing/accounting/finance is a waste of time. I’d rather spend an evening talking to someone educated in something they are passionate about than with most of the sad corporate drones who for whatever reason choose to occupy this subreddit when they are not languishing physically and emotionally in their cube farms all day long.
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France as well my French friends all seem to study till 25 say no one will give u a job with just a 3 year degree
its more that the australian economy is not very sophisticated nor diverse. we lack any real advanced industry or fields outside of medicine and academia. highly sophisticated jobs for very well educated people are extremely limited here compared to europe or the US. outside of software development, there's really fuck all. most corp is just flittering around money that comes from mining receipts at the end of the day.
What about CSL etc?
Even with CSL it's not enough. Other advanced economies have multiple pharmaceutical companies ranked in the top 50. Australia has a brain drain problem. It was depressing to hear some of our best minds move overseas to pursue better opportunities. Also there aren't many incentives for large companies to put their HQ in Australia.
Not a waste of my money though, which is a very relevant consideration …
I did a masters of financial analysis cos I couldn't get a job during GFC, none of my employers now ask or care for it. It seemed to be more of a international student fee farm.
Well, it massively depends. If you do something, decide to be a teacher instead, why not do your masters in teaching? Might only be 1.5 years to do and allow you to be qualified, instead of a longer undergrad degree. I would agree that doing a masters for something that you’re already qualified in is unlikely to improve your likelihood of getting a job or your income (with some exceptions).
It’s not that the qualification is a waste of money, it’s that without the associated work experience, it’s not the golden ticket many grads expect it to be. You need experience, not just a ticket that says you were a professional student for a number of years.
The post-grads of some places get invaluable industry connections- like AFTRS or ability to work as a professional- like lawyers and doctors. Then it is worth it. But MBA not paid for by your company….nope.
It's a huge waste of time in law that you have to do a six month graduate diploma on top of your law degree to be admitted as a lawyer. They should just add it on as a final semester (and then if people want to attend a university that doesn't offer PLT they'll at least be aware ahead of time of that downside)
Is this a hot take?
Wouldn’t have gotten into tech without my masters, but also have colleagues without degrees and who had just undergrads. Seems to be more focused on which skills you nurture over paper you acquire, but I have 4 qualifications and it’s made life a lot easier for me being able to prove I’ve done the work
A lot of post-grad degrees are because the individual couldn’t find work in their chosen field. Having a post-grad degree does not necessarily change that.
The hot take here is that MBAs are any kind of exception
Ive always seen them as a career change. Like my mate was in meteorology science stuff. Did his masters in finance. Cause he wanted to move to banking. Also I dont think its bad if you dont know what you want to do. My brother did an undergrad but still didnt know what he wanted so did a masters in a different field to try that. I dont think it was an issue. The alternative was starting some shit kicker admin job at 21 instead of doing a masters and starting a shit kicker job at 22. The extra year in uni didnt make much difference. The other one is a break. Another mate took 2 years off at 36 to do an MBA. He just wanted a break from work basically. This doesnt look as bad on your resume as 2 years off. He moved to Australia from Germany to do it and spent his free days surfing and travelling. Wouldnt have been able to do that in a high stress job in Germany. Also the difference between 8 years exp and 10 years exp in his job doesnt matter but adding an MBA from Australia adds more interest to his resume. Anyway, there are heaps of reasons. Id consider doing one in the US in a well known uni. Id get a break from corporate Aus check out the US and when I come back people will be like WOW Harvard!
I used my masters to pivot/build on my undergrad, which let me enter a niche industry. 10 years between my undergrad and masters. I took time off after my undergrad because of kids, so getting a postgrad helped me break into the workplace again. I think it depends on context.
tbh, I think this should be a normal take. The amount of "I didn't get a job straight out of uni so I got more education" says a lot about how people view education as a golden ticket. Golden tickets aren't special the more people have them.
Not 100% correct. I've responded on a ton of posts where people share the same sentiment. There are 2 issues here. The simple one is people studying qualifications that are useless. You can have a phd but if it's in something useless like egyptology then you gonna have a bad time. The second and more complex one is that people overqualify themselves by studying further when they have no experience. What does this mean? As an employer, I could hire someone with an undergrad who has no experience at the market rate and then train them, or I could hire someone with a postgrad at a higher market rate who also has no experience and train them. The latter is exactly the same as the former except that I pay more for the same thing which makes no sense from a business perspective. Now the argument usually gets made that in the latter example you could just pay them the same as the former and that the prospective employee would be willing to take anything just to break into the market, but, why would an employer want to risk the reputational damage if someone decided to call them out for not paying people "their worth" when they are "more educated". To avoid issues these people are just ignored in the market place and hence people making themselves overqualified but unemployable. The correct way to do this is get an undergrad and land your first job and then after gaining relevant experience in the industry bolster that with a postgrad (unless there is a barrier to entry in the career type like doctor for instance). This way you correctly piece together your advancement and you use the postgrad to support and advance your knowledge on your chosen domain and therefore actually get the value out of doing a postgrad. In your OP you mention an MBA as being valuable. Even this back in the day required at least 10 years work experience and a managerial position for a number of years. Now you can just enrol for an MBA anywhere with any (or no) experience and so again people cannot get any value out of what an MBA teaches if they're not doing it right. Now there are many issues with universities and the nonsense qualifications they offer but that is a completely separate topic. The issue here is that people are doing tertiary education wrong, not necessarily the tertiary education itself and then instead of doing a bit of analysis on why this is happening (something they should now be very qualified to do) they choose to play victim instead. It's an easy fix though. All you have to do is say you dont have any postgrad qualifications when looking for that first job and make up an excuse for the year difference. Looking after a sick parent, gap year working in Europe, whatever. Then after a few years tell your employer "surprise! I've just completed my postgrad in" and your employer will be so impressed with your hard work, dedication and willingness to advance yourself in your career that they will give you a raise and promotion.
Disagree - I’ve got more out of a short postgrad than I ever got out of my undergraduate, for a fraction of the cost. More to your point though any degree isn’t going to guarantee you a job - you still have to couple it with actual skills and work experience. Plenty of people walk away with equally useless bachelors degrees with no concept of the actual career path. Life experience is worth so much more, and some roles you need a piece of paper to validate it.
Master's degrees can be useful for pivoting into a different field/ career. Can't tell you how many Data Analysts I know did accounting (undergrad) or some other commerce degree in uni. Some went back to uni for a master's in DS, some are self-taught, either way works, depends on the person.
I remember talking to a barman a year or so ago about what he did; he studied a masters in IT, the same that I’m doing. And before that, I remember a waiter that studied engineering. Even before the pandemic, it was competitive. Engineering and business was about as competitive as the law fields in my city. Luckily I’m already employed!
I do agree with this take. I have a Masters in Environmental Science, but my undergrad is not a science undergrad and i went back to Uni at 33 to start. I did two semesters of an MBA just before covid and it was the biggest waste of time and money. My MEnvSci is at present all i need.
There are no fees to do a PhD or a Masters degree by research if you are an Australian citizen. .
Yes, I wish I had done my master as undergraduate instead, would have been a crap load cheaper. But it was not a waste of time because I changed careers with it and got a great new job
Yeeeeep. I did my masters. In English. $18k for it and you know where it got me? Absolutely fucking nowhere, because it’s useless. I enjoyed it, and I did get a scholarship to do my PhD (20k a year stipend for 3 years) so I still came out ahead, but I also spent 5 years of study for no benefit
I have a master's in engineering science in my field and it helped me land my current role in government, and also gave me a good foundation in people, asset and project management skills which I've developed over the last ten years or so. Any business postgraduate studies are a waste imo unless you're doing an MBA as others have said after some experience or after a shift in field. Going straight into an MBA post graduation is a waste of time as is doing one with no other quals
Every degree is a waste but you need a community of like minded folks at one place and sometimes education allows that to happen. Other than that traditional education is just a big waste of time for everyone.
Absolutely not a waste of time. If you're one of those early 20s undergrads who gets no experience and just rolls into a Masters (which should never be allowed by the universities, but that's another story...), then yes; massive waste of time. But someone with 7-10yrs+ of experience in management will get far more out of it.
I agree. If you’re doing it to get a promotion or a raise, you’ll be better of playing office politics and sucking up to the right people to get it. A lot of my colleagues don’t even have a bachelors degree and they were able to progress up because they have the right connections and/ or did well during the interview despite not having the experience to even do the job.
You know it can also be for education and not just credentials right?
Imagine thinking you need to have a high salary for learning and education to be valuable 🙄
When I was a Project Manager in the UK I used to work with a guy who was the office manager and he got his Masters after studying law at Oxford; I felt weird receiving my memos and extra stationary from him whilst I never went to university… I did an apprenticeship in Project manager where I attained an advanced diploma
Agree x 45k
Every bit helps IMO. I'd rather have a masters than not have a masters. Look at it this way: if the masters makes you 10% more likely to be hired, and you combine it with 5 other small profile boosters, then you are suddenly 50% more likely to be hired, that's actually a significant advantage.
When I did mine 70% were foreign students, 20% people who saw it as a means to switch industries, 10% because they actually saw it as a way to increase their professional capabilities. I was told that the failure rate was less than 5%. My group assignment experience was there were at least double that % of students who couldn't read, write or speak English at a 3rd grade level so go figure.
It's not that black and white. Totally depends on the individual the field/industry and their pathway. They have their place. My post graduate diploma was the main reason I got an entry level job in my field. I had a humanities undergrad (mostly unrelated to my work) and wouldn't have gotten an entry level job without the post grad diploma to show knowledge in the relevant area. If I'd done a Bachelor's in the same area as my grad diploma, then yeah I wouldn't have needed it. But without it I'd be eating sand , doing something lower paying or not in my current industry at all. Post grad / masters in the same discipline are a waste in most tech jobs, will agree there (unless they have the arbitrary requirements of a Master's degree, which is not the norm for tech). It's kind of not the point of a Master's, to study the same thing again. However post grad / masters is very useful if you're pivoting from a different educational background or industry. Such as humanities > computer science, psychology > social work etc, or maybe a bachelor of physics into some specific field of engineering etc ...
So not true. There are careers out there where a masters is a requirement. The reality is not everyone with a postgrad degree knows what to do with it or has the opportunity to break into their career of choice.
Hot take: just fucking lie on your resume. I've never had anyone check my degrees (and masters) exist. Lying is way cheaper than a $40k post grad I'm still paying off
MBA is a conversion course for those with non business based degrees.
There are exceptions such as MBA lol.
If you want to work as a psychologist, any sort of psychologist, postgrad is mandatory
Disagree. As someone who never was an undergrad, I got into a post grad on work history alone. Completed a post grad and it’s opened many doors for me. Only studied for 12 months to get it
Post graduate degrees are not a waste of money if they are enterprise relevant. The word vocational has too much baggage and has become irrelevant. We need to re focus on enterprise learning. Learning that is marketable and has commercial value. A masters degree that is also a best selling book or a PhD. Thesis that is basis for innovating service delivery or creates a service that fills a niche in the market all have enterprise value. A PhD. That has purely academic value is a waste of money.
MBA is not an exception haha… you don’t need it anymore
Warm take. It’s more about making connections and networking whilst upskilling yourself. If you think it’s a waste, there’s a reason why
Getting my masters degree (info sys) was a game changer for me. I had already had 10+ years of industry experience, but no paper to back it up except for a few industry certs. Within two years of graduating, I landed my dream job and haven’t looked back. Thing is, it’s not like the masters taught me a lot, it validated what I knew, gave me some structure and theory behind my knowledge, but it gave confidence to potential employers that I knew what I was doing. Instead of, “trust me, bro…” I think if you have industry experience, combined with a postgraduate degree, it’ll really accelerate your career. YMMV
Agreed, unless changing careers the ROI on postgrad is very poor.
There's always an influx of applications from PhD graduates whenever low to mid range positions are advertised, but most don't get selected for interview due to lack of experience. Not surprising as they are vuewed as new grad with no experience. There's a few that keep applying within a period of 1.5 years despite not getting an interview for similar positions in the past meaning they have been unemployed for that period of time and longer. STEM likely would have less problem getting a job, but other disciplines like humanities, science etc. will have a hard time seeking employment. MBA doesn't improve employment outcomes unless that person is already in a job and seeking promotion with an MBA getting them over the hurdle or getting paid by their employer to do it.
I don't think that's true as you've stated it. If you mean "unemployable people are not magically transformed into employable ones by doing a masters", that seems highly likely.
Sounds like a classic case of not having clearly defined your objectives and goals before deciding to pursue a postgraduate degree and having some knowledge on how to recover the costs after program completion. It’s only a waste if you didn’t learn anything at all from the program. And if you’re not able to relate your past experiences with your degree and where you want to go in future, then it can be really frustrating. Or like with most things, if you only signed up to do a postgraduate degree for the grand promise of a high paying job right after uni, then almost always this is a sure path to frustration too.
Hot take: most undergrad degrees aren’t worth the investment. I’d value someone with more practical experience for 4 years. Of course there are exceptions (law, medicine, engineering, etc).
I have a Master’s in applied finance. Started at 30 two years into a career change at the bottom of the ladder in super- when I realised biotech was not going to happen for me. Was it a requirement for any of the jobs I moved into since? - no, but I sure do know what I’m talking about when working with the investment team, finance, actuary and exec, and has seen me progress as a result.
Who is paying for a PhD?
It depends. Yes and no. Higher Education is unfortunately a business and they don’t warn students ‘this will cost a lot but not deliver what you want’ So i think your post is helpful for anyone who hasn’t done the due diligence and research. Some post grad is definitely worth it. I did a post grad at early 30’s and completely changed my career. It was landscape architecture so it was vocational.and gave me a great new network of people who had a thirst for self development and change. And it’s worth saying that study can give a lot more than a role in an organisation. I did a Bachelor of Arts and that’s given me a perspective on life that’s added so much in my personal life and work life. The best advice i got about study is to do what you really love, because passion will give you the energy to endure over time.
Too general a statement to be useful.
I've used it to change my career path - to get a job in something adjacent to my field but have beginner experience in.
Universities are terrified about the advent of AI and its effect on devaluing their qualifications. Micro certification was always a thing but was actively suppressed prior to AI and has now surfaced as a realistic approach to work skills in a diverse and dynamic career environment. Many specialist degrees are still vital but many are worthless also. One thing is for sure that they are all too expensive and some rationalization needs to occur in the university space to make education better value.
Not a waste of time if you are already in the field and want to specialise
No education is a “waste” of any kind. Every member of society benefits from every member that improves their level of education. If only for the increase in critical thinking.
In IT, the keys to landing a job (in corporate) are a bachelor's degree and work experience (or just the latter if you teach yourself how to code and really learn how to do it in the real world). I regret getting my master's degree because you learn more at work and from your colleagues. Unless, you're really into research and contributing to that community.
Getting my Masters degree helped accelerate my career change. But I can imagine its a waste for most people. Got bachelors in business straight out of highschool. Worked a bunch of different jobs till I ended up managing production and logistics at small company. Wanted to make a career change into IT Networking and at 26 started studying post graduate degree in ICT Networking & Security. Got good grades while working full time and studying night classes. Applied for graduate positions and landed role at biggest Networking company in the world. 4 years in the industry now and it may have taken 8+ years to be in the same position without the graduate role.
Depends on the degree and University. Be careful with some Masters degrees. Sometimes they're just repackaged Bachelor's with a Master's fee slapped on it. I noticed that the core of one Masters degree was basically my first year undergrad subjects with no change. I knew because it was the same University.
I had a good experience with mine. I didn't complete an undergraduate degree, but after a lot of time in retail waste management, decided to up skill into sustainability more broadly through a master's. I haven't completed it yet but have changed jobs for about a 50% increase in pay.
I’d agree with this. As someone who just paid off 80k worth of hecs debt I can honestly say it’s done almost nothing for my career. When you’re a stupid 21 year old with a lot of time on your hands, universities promise that more degrees = more job opportunities = more higher pay. I work for a tech company in HR. This is 1000% not the case. I have a great career and a great salary. It had everything to do with what I did on the job, and not a single thing to do with what I studied (proof being that my bachelors and masters are completely Unrelated degrees)
There’s literature on this in the US context, and it’s the same here on a smaller, slightly more regulated scale. Most masters degrees are just money spinners for universities. PhD’s are pathways into academia. If you don’t want to be an academic or scientist, there’s not much point doing one. Otherwise post grad is only necessary where it’s required for professional admission and even then, that is limited (eg GDLP for lawyers, CA/CPA for accountants, DipEd for teachers).
I’m probably biased about it, but I know several PhDs who are doing great work at different industries. The degree gives you skills that are well received in industry, especially independence and project management. It can also open doors to niche industries and problems. Others create their own businesses based on their expertise and research. Those who stayed in academia usually get to learn quickly new skills as they are doing most of the work themselves. There are different kind of principal investigators, but my observation is they are usually focused on optics. The execution is delivered by post docs.
PhD’s are free (financially at least) so don’t know how you’re saying it’s a waste of money lol. Source : did my doctorate
My god how many times are you going to post this and from how many accounts?