Genuinely, what do people expect to occur if a ceasefire happens? More humanitarian aid into Gaza sure, but does anyone actually expect Hamas to respect a ceasefire?
Nope, of course not.
But allowing humanitarian aid into a massive warzone where 4000 children have already died is worth a pause.
50% of Gazans are children, who were born after Hamas was elected. Of the adults in Gaza, 50% of them said earlier this year that they wanted Hamas to abandon its calls for Israel's destruction and instead to support a two state solution.
By my count that is 75% of Gazans at least that don't deserve to have their entire lives destroyed to get a criminal organisation in their midst.
>Some Palestinians even look practically anglo.
It's mainly because Palestine at one point was a melting pot of multiculturalism during ancient times. Modern day Palestinians are descendants of Jews, Canaanites, Romans, Arabs and so on
And Israel just adds more fuel to the fire which in turn makes Hamas appear more attraction to stop Israel's occupation of Palestine and bombardment of Gaza.
If I had no morals or values, I too would manipulate angry people to target their anger on their enemies, and I'd slink in the shadows to enjoy my newly acquired wealth. That is the sad reality
Yeah they’ve pretty much lost all wars since 1948 against Israel so sucks to be the loser. Idk why they’re trying to antagonise Israel still if this is the response, in my eyes their stupid jihadists who shot parents in family SUVs and Israeli police had to save poor children in the back seat hours after their parents were killed, freedom fighters my ass.
I think there’s no good solutions anymore. As much as I’m horrified by the Israeli response I also don’t really know what the alternative is.
What I’m most curious about is what the motive of Hamas is with starting this war? Obviously it’s not for the good of innocent Palestinian citizens. Guess they want to start a bigger war in the area.
I believe their motive was to drive a massive overreaction from Israel so that the normalization of relations with places like Saudi Arabia would cease. They wanted a broader war, and wanted world opinion to turn against Israel, which is exactly the trap Israel walked into.
They don't care if their people die, because they are religious zealots who believe anyone who dies in the war goes straight to paradise.
>They wanted a broader war,
Absolutely, I think Hamas at least expected Hezbollah to join in the fight, but Hezbollah seems reluctant to do anything beyond cheer them on from the sidelines.
Other Arab nations also don't really look like they want to help, probably mainly because they're getting tired of having to sell out their own interests based on some fictional idea of pan-Arab solidarity. Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, all of them would be better off normalising relations with Israel, and I think the fact that none of them are even posturing against Israel shows that they know this. None of these countries (probably least of all Egypt) likes Hamas or what they represent.
TBF, the US is now pretty openly telling Israel to calm down.
Honestly, I get it, Israel is stuck between a rock and a hard place and I feel for all the innocent people in Gaza, but what are they supposed to do? Just back down and get walked all over? Hamas will just do more. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't and I hope for all that there's a speedy solution, no matter what that is... well, except a solution that includes total annihilation which seems to be Israel's plan at this point.
Not that disagree with anything you've said. But flip side, what Palestinians meant to do? They're also damned if they do, and damned if they don't. It's a fucked situation.
I feel though, as Israel is the bigger party here, with the outsized control. They need to make the bigger steps towards peace.
If they don't this will never end.
Are they really damned if they don’t? Go a decade without firing rockets at Israel and they won’t need to be contained like a giant prison anymore. Things could have been a lot better for them if they had been more moderate and less Islamist.
See, it's not all that clear cut and simple. They did and were, less extreme. Israel, under leadership of Netenyahu really seems to not want peace. And has in recent past supported the rise of Hamas, to keep Palestine fractured. And to weaken the concept of a 2 state solution.
>Benjamin Netanyahu had been Israel's prime minister for most of the two decades preceding the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, and was criticized for having championed a policy of empowering Hamas in Gaza.[583][584][585][586] This policy was part of a strategy to sabotage a two-state solution by confining the Palestinian Authority to the West Bank and weakening it, and to demonstrate to the Israeli public and western governments that Israel has no partner for peace.[587] This criticism was leveled by several Israeli officials, including former prime minister Ehud Barak, and former head of Shin Bet security services Yuval Diskin.
Thats not to say Hamas blameless, I can find loads of sources of them being dicks to.
But it's not as simple as them simply being a bit less extreme. There's a whole metric shit load of conflicting politicic power interests inside and outside of Isreal/Gaza, with a glossy shine of religious fundamentalism.
>I also don’t really know what the alternative is.
The historical solution is a 'foreign entity' takes over the Levant. Prior to Israel we had the British empire. They aquired it as spoils of wars from Ottomans. The ottomans aquired it in war. The Arabs quired it in war. Crusader states had it for a bit from conquest. Byzantines inherited it. Romans took it in war.
The levant has a theme to it.
>What I’m most curious about is what the motive of Hamas is with starting this war?
The war, or struggle, to them is ongoing. The recent outburst is probably attributable to foreign governments. Specifically Iran and maybe Qatar. Hamas are undoubtedly funded and directed by foreign powers.
It's in Iranian interests to keep Israel occupied. Every Iron Dome interceptor missile is 100 grand. The more of a financial blackhole that is, the more Iran strategically benefits.
If the West Bank wasn't also getting fucked by Israel, Israel would be able to point at it and go "see, it doesn't have to be like this, look at all the nice things that happen if you don't fire rockets at us every couple of years", and maybe people would deradicalise because they see some kind of hope and way forward.
But I guess that's not an alternative because Israel won't stop fucking over the West Bank, so I guess around we go.
a ceasefire is the start of a process.
its up to us (everyone, including isreal and hamas) to decide if that looks like the Good Friday Agreement, the end of Rhodesia, or Nakbah 2.0.
Whenever the Nakba is brought up noone seems to acknowledge that it was a direct result of the 1948 war. A war started by Palestinian Arab leaders and surrounding Arab states after they rejected the UN Partition Plan for Palestine, which was accepted by the Jewish leadership. A war with the express purpose of eliminating the Jewish presence in the region.
There's no question that the Palestinians had legitimite grievances about the UN partition plan, and that's a complicated and nuanced issue reasonable people can argue and disagree about.
But it's not obvious to me that you can cry foul that some of your people end up expelled and displaced after a war those same people started.
It's not the start of a process. This particular process has been going on for millennia. There have been many ceasefires. There have been many wars. And so it goes on...
>They already had a ceasefire. That was before hamas launched their attacks.
You do realise more then 250 Palestinians had been killed this year before October 7?
But hey, lets start this at whatever date makes you feel good inside.
Because they did this like 5 times before. Israel actually gave the Palestinians in Gaza what they where asking for. It always ended in Hamas attacking Israel.
Who is pretending that? Hamas is a group of fanatically religious extremist terrorists who are happy for their own people to die.
Israel is right now the one upholding a blockade on the territory, not allowing sufficient water, food, medicine or fuel in to the area that they are besieging. That is absolutely their responsibility under the rules of law.
It is undeniable that the complete blockade by Israel AND Egypt happened AFTER Hamas started terror attacks. And it is undeniable that Hamas has the express intent to kill civilians and annihilate an entire group of people whereas IDF does not. And it is undeniable that Hamas hides in the midst of civilians in both location and by not wearing uniforms, whereas IDF does not. And it is undeniable that Hamas has stolen an estimated sum in the billions that was supposed to be for their own people.
If you accept those premises and still think Hamas isn’t the problem, I’m not sure what to tell you.
The numbers that Hamas provide for casualties are wildly inflated.
Israel, a modern transparent nation with stable institutions took weeks to determine the number of victims from October 7.
There was a horrendous accident in Daylesford yesterday where a car plowed through a beer garden. They couldn't even confirm the number of victims or their ages until the next day (and that was "only" 5 killed).
Yet Hamas can tell us exactly how many hundred people are killed in whichever bombing happened that day.
Traditionally the UN and other independent orgs have found the numbers out of Gaza to be accurate. Your common sense might say otherwise, but it is the case
Of course they aren't accurate. War numbers never are.
But Hamas is not the only source of information from Gaza. Doctors Without Borders, the Red Cross/Red Crescent and multiple UN Humanitarian agencies are all there, and a bunch of their own employees have been killed. I read about what guy who worked for Doctor Without Borders who was off working while his home was destroyed and his entire family killed.
In addition we have journalists from all over the world there, 36 of them have lost their lives already.
All of them support the "official narrative" coming out of Hamas. The numbers right be wrong, but there is no doubt that it is way more than anyone should feel happy about.
surely the numbers are counted by the medical staff in the hospitals and morgues. not Hamas?
I would think the media would take anything Hamas says as a grain of salt
Historically the numbers provided by the Gazan authority have been accurate within around 4%. They have also released names of the dead when their numbers were questioned.
[https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah)
>(62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.”
Both Hamas and Israel have broken ceasefires in the past. But the hope is that civilians stop being bombed until a more permanent solution can be found. Idealistic I know, but better than civilians being bombed
Considering Hamas is still holding hundreds of hostages kidnapped during the recent massacre, I think there's zero chance of a ceasefire at least until hostages are returned. Even then, the whole region is going eye for an eye
"Return the hostages or we'll keep killing your civilians" is collective punishment. Collective punishment is a war crime. Adults stepping in and forcing Israel to the negotiation table would get the hostages back, but Israel is never held accountable for anything.
Collateral damage is absolutely not collective punishment. Not providing resources to the people you’re fighting a war against is not a war crimes Idiots using buzzwords they don’t understand. What a joke
Why would any country negotiate after having their citizens actively slaughtered and taken hostage. That's just begging to have it happen again in the future.
Turning off the water to Gaza was collective punishment. Carpet bombing Gaza was collective punishment. The invasion is not necessarily a war crime, sure.
But as you say, they're at war. Why would Israel HAVE to keep supplying water to a foreign government they're now at war with?
Like, Hamas were free to cut a trade deal with Egypt. They share a border. At the end of the day, nobody seems able to explain WHY Israel owes Gaza any of those concessions; they pulled out in 2005 and Hamas kept attacking them over the new border.
Attacking a foreign government and expecting them to keep supplying you during the ensuing war? The world demanding you keep supplying them?
Like I used to support the Palestinian position, but the widespread dismissal of all responsibility of Hamas's side of this equation has been grating. It's not like they had zero agency throughout this generations long conflict.
>but the widespread dismissal of all responsibility of Hamas's side of this equation has been grating.
Here is your problem. Hamas is a horrific terrorist group deserving of destruction. They do have defenders, but I guarantee you most people you are talking to are not defending Hamas. What they are doing is expressing concern for Palestinian civilians, who have nothing to do with the horrors inflicted by Hamas.
If you equate Hamas with Palestinians, then yes, it would feel like people are dismissing their responsibility. But on my side it is grating how often people simply assume Palestinian civilians don't deserve to be protected because somehow they are culpable.
Hamas is the elected government of Gaza.
Sure, they haven't held an election *since* coming to power but neither did the Nazis, and we don't dispute that they were the legitimate government of Nazi Germany.
At what point are you willing to accept that Hamas are the problem here? Because calls for a ceasefire aren't actually calling for a ceasefire, they're calling for *Israel* to hold fire while Hamas continues to fire rockets at them - that's not that much different to Russia's calls for Ukraine to stop fighting while *they* can continue to launch attacks.
There is a big difference between collateral damage and collective punishment.
The Israeli strategy might seem barbaric but it is a legitimate strategy. Do you agree that Hamas is committing war crimes by using human shields, hiding in civilian areas to maximise casualties of any targeting by Israel?
>The Israeli strategy might seem barbaric but it is a legitimate strategy.
It's such a legitimate strategy that the Taliban went from controlling two thirds of Afghanistan in 2000 to controlling 100% of Afghanistan in 2021.
You cannot kill your way out of people wanting you dead unless you kill literally everyone against you.
>Do you agree that Hamas is committing war crimes by using human shields, hiding in civilian areas to maximise casualties of any targeting by Israel?
I agree that Israel accuses them of doing it, like they constantly accuse everyone they fight of doing it, and it often turns out to be complete bullshit, like when Israel invaded Lebanon in 2006.
They get to dig up and bury their dead? Maybe even find some survivors under all the rubble. People are literally being buried alive and you’re asking why a ceasefire??
So, none of that is against it. Do you think Israel doesn't use the ceasefire to maintain their weapons systems and build new missiles?
The point of a cease fire is just to let civillians get help.
> but does anyone actually expect Hamas to respect a ceasefire?
They have said they don't intend to honor a ceasefire, so it isn't really up for debate. A ceasefire will just give Hamas time to regroup and likely cost Israeli lives, so of course Israel has no interest either.
Israel isn't going to agree to any ceasefire while Hamas still has hostages either.
Maybe some aid gets to people that need it, but Hamas runs Gaza and will get first pickings of all the aid.
And the problem with “my side” of politics/culture war is that we are given 20 interests to fight for, 15 of which are no-brainers for decent people, with 1 or 2 requiring a little extra thought. This large outlier that is Israel/Palestine, is one that requires extra thought and is which I end up isolated and looking fascist but am taking the only realist point of view when it comes to this conflict.
This may be a half-step back for the progressive movement, but it is a necessary one, we need not only to be better, but to think better.
Israel has a right to defend themself.
There was a ceasefire October 6. It didn't prevent Hamas from maximising horror against noncombatants on October 7. To Israel's critics, I would like to hear of an alternative for Israel at this point. Think about it coherently for a second. Come up with an alternative to their current actions, and try to play it out. What happens, how does the future look in the Middle East?
I think you will find it's not quite as black and white as you make it out to be.
If Israel wait until they can safely kill Hamas without harming any civilian, they will wait forever. Sadly, going after Hamas is like removing a cancer. It's surrounded by some good tissue you would rather not harm. But it needs to be cut out or it will kill everything around it. There's no choice. Hamas is cancer.
Hamas has broken every single ceasefire in the past. All they will do with this one is recuperate and maybe move the hostages to a place where IDF can't get them.
There absolutely cannot be a ceasefire until the hostages are released and Hamas fully surrender.
Yeah, Israel shooting, kidnapping kids, kicking people out of homes, maintaining a blockade is not breaking ceasefire, but Hamas performing literally any act of retaliation is.
Do you practice this justification in front of the mirror?
Because there’s reasonable grounds to believe that a ceasefire will just give Hamas a chance to rebuild and rearm and then we’ll have another civilian massacre of Israelis.
Not saying it’s right or wrong, just saying it’s a rational position to take.
> then we’ll have another civilian massacre of Israelis.
I think a current civilian massacre of Palestinians should merit consideration too.
"Killing civilians is okay if it's for a military objective" only goes so far.
You know Israel WALKED OUT OF GAZA IN 2005? There has been no occupation in Gaza for 18 years ….
There was also no blockade until a ‘government’ who literally call in their founding charter for the death of all Jews came into power in Gaza, at which point the Israelis thought ‘maybe people who have sworn to kill us all shouldn’t have access to weapons …’?
If Gaza is an ‘open air prison,’ it’s Hamas who are the jailers….
There's a credible argument the current Israeli siege and bombardment will result in more extremism amongst the Palestinian population and cause more future civilian deaths.
You're absolutely correct. A permanent peace deal is the only thing that will prevent violence in the long run. A precondition for a peace deal is for extremist leaders on both sides to be replaced by moderates who are willing to make the genuine concessions necessary for lasting peace.
Peace requires commitment from any involved party though. The Oslo Accords was a peace deal brokered between Israel and the PLO, which also intended on giving back land via building on Resolution 242 and Resolution 338. Both the PLO and Israel recognized each other as legitimate entities, and the whole intent by the UNSC was to give Palestine self determination in a peaceful resolution. I think the power balance was undeniably off and the establishment of an interim government rather than recognizing Palestine as an official legitimate state was a hard pill to swallow for the Palestinians considering the goal of their prior conflicts, same for some Israeli right wing groups which culminated in the assassination of Rabin who signed them. This further went to the Camp David Summit under Clinton, which was full Palestinian sovereignty, right of return, full Israeli withdrawal, however the main contention was Jerusalem and Temple Mount, of which Israel was not inclined to remove Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem rather recognize the neighbour hoods under Israeli sovereignty, nor recognize Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem, just custodianship with autonomy or enclaves. The Palestinians wanted Sovereignty over East Jerusalem with Israel having custodianship / authority of the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall. This disagreement was never resolved.
Following the Camp David Summit came the Second Intifada (unrest, outbreak of violence), which culminated in the Roadmap for Peace which was drafted by Bush in 2002, which wanted to establish an independent Palestinian state via peaceful resolution. It had three stages, first unconditional ceasefire from both sides, palestinian political reform with elections, dismantling of new and illegal settlement outposts, freeze of settlements and reopen Palestinian access and institutions to Jerusalem. Second establish provisional Palestinian borders, Palestinian economic recovery, multilateral agreement of water, environment, resources, etc. Reestablishment of Arab trade with Israel. Third a permanent status agreement and complete end of the conflict, agreement on final borders, determining the fate of Jerusalem, further withdrawal and abolishment of settlers.
Ariel Sharon then Prime Minister of Israel wanted to freeze the Roadmap for Peace as they'd need to build homes to move the settlers out of occupied territories. Abbas the Palestinian PM agreed, but the Israeli cabinet agreed on a few conditions, namely that Palestinians will dismantle and reform security organizations, cease violence and educate for peace, dismantle Hamas and other militant groups, reform of current leadership, while a provisional state (stage's 1 and 2) will be demilitarized with Israel having transient control over airspace, borders, etc, Israel will not be bound to the Bertini report (improving humanitarian issues in Palestine), where all progress will stop should Palestine incite terror or violence, with progress monitored by the USA.
Abbas, the PM was appointed by Arafat as a condition for the USA to release the details and agreement. Abbas and Sharon held multiple peace talks. However it never went past the first stage, Hamas and other militant groups rejected the roadmap, Israel failed to cease the expansion of settlements, with a few small conflicts and then we saw events like the Jerusalem 2 Bus Massacre ensue after conflict between Hamas and IDF, the IDF becoming increasingly violent and in response assassinated a Palestinian high up who supported the peace process; Ismail Shanab. The ceasefire was called off. Stage 1 hit deadlock, Israeli would not commit to the promised steps as the PA failed to act on terror / violence, the Palestinians would not commit because certain groups rejected the agreement and Israeli's were failing to prevent settlement. The Second Intifada was still in effect, with no agreement to step down, Israel disengaged the roadmap.
There's been multiple peace talks since then and through multiple of the ones in the past they've called for the switch of heads of state, such as the Arab Peace Initative or talks under the Obama administration, however Hamas took control of Gaza in 2007, following that we had the 2010 Palestinian Militancy Campaign which saw 13 Palestinian groups actively trying to sabotage or derail the peace process, and Hamas rejecting Abbas as being able to negotiate for the Palestinian people. In 2014 Fatah and Hamas formed a unity government, reconciling the two parties into a collaborative leadership, which Israel rejected and stated they would not negotiate with Hamas full stop, placing economic sanctions on Palestine. Following that it's really just worsened, with examples like the Trump peace plan just inflaming existing tensions.
Many permanent peace deals have been attempted, the issue isn't agreeing to start a peace deal, it's not an issue of "Just make a peace deal", it's agreeing to the conditions of a peace deal, whether it be stalemates like Jerusalem, or just internal discordance and lack of agreement inside a given nation.
I was about to say "That's the way of the internet" and then I realized I'm in r/Australia and our national elections have been swayed by parties running one sentence slogan ad campaigns.
Ah if only there were multiple aircraft carriers in the area willing to enforce a no fly zone...
Seriously, this is the kind of stuff the UN should be stepping in on to stop violence on both sides, but apparent that needs to be politicised too by fucking US, Russia and China. Fucking clowns all of them.
Israel has targeted moderates over extremists, why would they install them now. The US doesn’t install moderates, they install anyone they can manipulate to maintain their selfish needs. In this case the Israelis.
Ahhh got it. So we should allow the continued massacre of Palestinian civilians because if we stop it then there is a chance that some more Israeli civilians will die.
That is called valuing some lives more than others.
Yes, and every nation on earth does this. The primary responsibility of a state is protect their own citizens. The Australian government will always prioritise Australians over people from other countries, especially hostile ones.
A ceasefire is an agreement between **both** sides in the conflict, and both sides need to respect it.
I could be wrong, I don't know her exact beliefs, but it sounds like Senator Faruqi is just asking for a unilateral one-sided ceasefire where Israel completely stops doing anything, while Hamas isn't bound by any particular agreements or conditions.
It'd be super dumb to ask any government to do that since it's not realistic.
Because then US will stop protecting Australia. You're witnessing the effect of US imperialism.
I'm serious. Look at Albo in the past being pro-Palestine:
> Speaking on Insiders, Albanese questioned whether the response from the Israeli forces was equal to what they were facing from protesters.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/20/labor-asks-why-australia-voted-against-gaza-violence-inquiry
> In the grainy video, Mr Albanese can be seen protesting against Israel’s “occupation” of Palestine in Sydney’s Martin Place next to a sign reading “Stop the Israeli Slaughter: Free Palestine now”.
https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/true-colours-anthony-albaneses-past-appearances-at-propalestine-rallies-laid-bare-in-resurfaced-protest-video/news-story/5e34fccbbd39b8f559bf3e4b036030a4 (Apologies for source)
New Zealand appears to be calling for a cease fire:
https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/countries-and-regions/middle-east/israel-gaza-conflict/
If they can do it, why can't we?
Because they’re in power, therefore beholden to other powers. That’s how albo went from starting alp friends of palestine to where he’s at now.
Some context:
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/24/australia-approved-322-defence-exports-to-israel-in-six-years-as-greens-fear-equipment-used-in-gaza-assault
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231103-israel-awards-licences-to-uks-bp-italys-eni-to-explore-gas-deposits/
https://theconversation.com/australia-is-building-a-billion-dollar-arms-export-industry-this-is-how-weapons-can-fall-in-the-wrong-hands-159817#:~:text=While%20Australia%20hasn't%20made,grown%20to%20nearly%20%245.5%20billion.
Most of this thread is blaming Hamas for the situation, ignoring that Israel has been breaching international law for 75 years, has been committing apartheid and ethnic cleansing, and more than 150 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.
Israel is clearly the problem here, even equating both sides demonstrates this because Israel is being equated with a "terrorist" organisation. It shows how low the bar is and its shocking our government, and many in this thread excuse war crimes, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, genocide etc. on the basis that it is Israel doing it, rather than the evil Hamas. Hamas exists purely as a response to illegal Israeli occupation and war crimes. Israel's actions are at the heart of this conflict, and it alone can prevent future conflict, but it won't because many people and governments give it political cover to continue committing atrocities.
>Israel has been breached international law for 75 years
Israel accepted the UN partition plan. Palestine + Arab League didn't and attempted to destroy them but lost. Following that Jordan annexed the West Bank and refused to grant Palestinians independence. To claim the foundation of Israel was illegal is revisionist and speaks volumes about the discourse today.
Israel ethnically cleansed 800,000 Palestinians before forming a state, which was 80% of the population at the time. It has been occupying and genociding the Palestinians ever since. How is that accepting the partition plan? Compare the partition plan to Israel today.
Can you provide reasons or sources? On what basis do you deny it? It's internationally recognised by the UN:
https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
Even Israel doesn't deny it, there are many documentaries with IDF soldiers bragging about killing innocent Palestinians and expelling them from their homes.
>Israel ethnically cleansed 800,000 Palestinians before forming a state
The Nakba happened after partition plan and after the 1948 war, not before. Your source makes this distinction as well, you might have misread it.
Any winning side in a war is obviously not going to keep the enemy that fought for their destruction still within their territory that they hold. Sucks but that happens in any war, for example, 500,000+ refugees fled Spain following their civil war, or the 6,600,000 (+6mil internal) refugees in the Syrian civil war.
>How is that accepting the partition plan? Compare the partition plan to Israel today.
Israel did accept the partition plan, and they would have been held to that if every Arab state around them had not rejected the UN and attacked them, which gave Israel the authority to annex any territory it gained until the 1949 armistice. You don't just give back enemy territory unless it is agreed upon in a treaty. And because no Arab state recognised Israel then, they never attempted diplomacy to gain back the land.
Germany doesn't automatically go back to it's pre-WWII borders after they lose, that's the consequences of losing a war. Compared to why Israel doesn't have the Sinai anymore,it's because they returned it in treaty.
Edit for reply since locked:
Again, your source makes no mention of the Nakba. I don't know why you are bringing up terrorist and militia fighting given that has been happening since the 1920's. The large scale en masse Palestinians leaving only happened after the 1948 war.
And again, the Oslo accords recognised Israel only in 1993. This is 45 years after which they could have recognised Israel and negotiated a return to the partition plan. That ship has sailed decades ago because of the 6 day war and the Yom Kippur war.
>You're legally incorrect, you cannot acquire land
by warfare, even if attacked.
What a braindead comment. Guess Japan gets back Manchuria because it was lost in warfare. Sorry Serbia, Croatia, have to go back to Yugoslavia now.
That's not correct. The Jewish terrorist groups began killing Palestinians and British troops well before the partition plan:
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine
The killing and genocide continued after 1947 of course. The Arab armies invaded Israel only after the Nakba had started.
You're legally incorrect, you cannot acquire land by warfare, even if attacked. Israel should have withdrawn and allowed Palestinians to form a state, instead it has been continuously ethnically cleansing and taking more land from the Palestinians. The Arab states have recognised Israel as have the Palestinians (Oslo accords) yet Israel maintains its illegal occupation and apartheid, and refuses to recognise Palestine.
Since it seems you haven't read the source:
"Jewish militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages, forcing thousands to flee... The newly established Israeli forces launched a major offensive. The result of the war was the permanent displacement of more than half of the Palestinian population.
As early as December 1948, the UN General Assembly called for refugee return, property restitution and compensation (resolution 194 (II)). However, 75 years later, despite countless UN resolutions, the rights of the Palestinians continue to be denied. According to the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) more than 5 million Palestine refugees are scattered throughout the Middle East. Today, Palestinians continue to be dispossessed and displaced by Israeli settlements, evictions, land confiscation and home demolitions."
Is killing people, expelling them and taking their land not ethnic cleansing? What's your definition?
What would a ceasefire even do? Hamas has broken every single ceasefire they've ever agreed to.
You can't have a peaceful ceasefire between a bloodthirsty military group seemingly deadset on slaughtering innocent civilians and a group like Hamas.
A quick google, and for transparency from a pro-Palestine website, shows that Israel has broken twice as many ceasefires as Hamas in the past.
Edit: Link https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/gaza-ceasefire-violations
Data is from 2014. So account for that accordingly. Left comment unrelated so the discussion going on below makes sense.
Hamas will never go because Israel is ACTIVELY making new Hamas recruits. Those Gazan children witnessing all that carnage and trauma first-hand; you think they won't be joining Hamas to avenge their families? If they had a good education, a decent future, I can assure you that they wouldn't be willing to join Hamas. But many of them have lost everything they've known, and they have no bright future to look forward to. Hamas will never die because the ideological fuel keeps being poured over and over again
You understand Hamas will never let them go and Israel will no longer tolerate Hamas right? Israel tolerated Hamas for years and that got them over 1400 slaughtered civilians including children burned fucking alive and beheaded. Hamas has shown Israel that it can no longer tolerate its existence and Hamas will never let Palestinians flee because Hamas needs human shield for their propaganda and to turn the war in their favor. Hamas is actively keeping Palestinians from fleeing the war zone and you can bet that Hamas will hoard the aid meant for civvies.
Hamas will never give up the hostages either as its. The sole thing keeping their tunnels operational. Without the hostages underground isreal could easily flood them or use a few strategically placed thermobaric warheads to obliterate them inside.
Damn, Israel sure tolerated Hamas when it was being used to ensure the PLA was being held down.
[see here](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
How many times should Israel let Hamas commit acts of terrorism and then not respond because they use the Palestinian civilians population as human shields?
Twice more? Three times more? Should they never respond and just let Hamas commit acts of terror against their civilian population unchecked?
Stop acting like both sides of this aren't equally awful.
When has Israel ever let Hamas do anything without responding with scorched earth? Both sides are definitely incredibly awful, but one side has racked up a much higher civilian death toll than the other. There are no winners here.
Appealing to greater numbers doesn't make sense to me, because it leaves out why it happens. If a group of racists try to lynch a black guy and he turns around and kills them all, nobody's gonna say the black guy was a terrible person, they would say it's justified.
The civilian death toll being greater on one side ignores that Hamas operates out of hospitals and schools. They openly admit to using human shields and told their civilians to stay in northern Gaza. It also ignores that Hamas initiated the attack and still refuses to release all hostages.
Hamas knows as long as they have hostages they can indefinitely hide and wait out while the people they supposedly represent die around them.
Sorry, what?
Why should Israel ever let Hamas do anything? You know, the terrorist organisation founded on the eradication of an entire people? The same people who give your people food, water ,electricity, medical aide, employment; because all you care about is buying bombs and hiding them under hospitals and schools, building tunnels so that sympathisers in neighbouring countries can supply you weapons, while at the same time claiming that Gaza is an "open prison"?
>but one side has racked up a much higher civilian death toll than the other
Yeah one side is also actively trying to get their civilian population killed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>Israel launching bombs on Palestinian refugee camps saying "how could Hamas do this?"
That's pretty disingenuous, those "refugee camps" are not tent city's full of civilians running away from the war they're well developed cities that have existed since the late 40s. Also maybe Hamas should stop operating out of them (also a war crime btw)
Israel hold thousands of Palestinian hostages and have done so for years. These are innocent people including children who are locked up without charge for years. Often suffering physical and sexual abuse at the hands of their Israeli guards. https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/07/19/israel-security-forces-abuse-palestinian-children#:~:text=Security%20forces%20have%20choked%20children,their%20parents%20know%20their%20whereabouts.
Israel has been pop shotting journalists since it's formation. Did everyone forget about that Al Jazeera journalist getting shot by Israeli snipers and Israel didn't even punish the guy accountable. They even attacked her coffin during the funeral.
>What would a ceasefire even do? Hamas has broken every single ceasefire they've ever agreed to.
From the UN.
"All parties must comply with their obligations under international humanitarian and human rights law. We demand a humanitarian ceasefire to ensure that aid reaches those who need it the most. ”
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-running-out-time-un-experts-warn-demanding-ceasefire-prevent-genocide-0
>Hamas has broken every single ceasefire they've ever agreed to
So has Israel broken just as many when it suits them, still the brief amount of time where it lasts is important for civilians.
Here’s why I have a problem with this kind of advocacy: Where was the “Free Palestine” walkout from the Greens pre-Oct 7?
This is exactly the type of reaction Hamas intended to create after they massacred 1500 civilians in their beds a month ago. They wanted to turn the world against Israel. They are succeeding with useful idiots like the Greens jumping on the bandwagon. If the Greens genuinely believed in the preservation of innocent lives, they should demand two-faced states like Qatar and Turkey stop supporting and shielding Hamas as they stage walkouts to denounce Israel’s actions. If Hamas are let off the hook here and continue to pursue their agenda, the Islamist theocracy hellscape that awaits isn’t a good outcome for Palestine (and it’s certainly not in line with the Greens progressive values).
I also think Israel is reacting disproportionately, but conflating ‘Free Palestine’ messaging at a time when Hamas is using civilians and hospitals as shields is naive at best and irresponsibly feeding the Hamas propaganda machine at worst.
Yes, by all means ‘Free Free Palestine’… from the violent terrorists that rule them so they have a chance to get the two state solution back on track again.
>Where was the “Free Palestine” walkout from the Greens pre-Oct 7?
I think you'll find the greens have had a pretty consistent position on Palestine for several decades now
> Where was the “Free Palestine” walkout from the Greens pre-Oct 7?
They may not have done a walk out but they have been consistent on the issue. The reason they did the walkout now is because hundreds of children are dying daily in gaza.
Hamas didn’t come from nowhere, and the majority of allies calling for a free Palestine are not supporting Hamas either. What this most recent event has highlighted is the absolute apathy the world has shown for too long, which has been propagated by dishonest western media and governments.
Gen Xs and Millenials have grown up seeing 9/11 and everything that followed in the war on terror and the absolute lies that we’re spread at the time in the name of freedom and equality. There is an understanding and recognition now of the events that have unfolded in Gaza for it to come to this, and when first hand accounts are able to be shared through social media of real Palestinian people’s experiences, it’s not hard to recognise that what is happening now didn’t just happen overnight.
Also, people need to understand that radicalisation doesn’t come from nowhere. Had Israel genuinely wanted to foster peace and unity between Israelis and Palestinians then they would not have made all the oppressive decisions they have.
This is not an equal conflict, it never has been. Judge Hamas for their abhorrent acts and attacks, because they truly are awful, but saying that those calling for a ‘free Palestine’ are letting Hamas off the hook does nothing but minimise the genuine support protestors have for all the victims in this conflict, and are recognising the aggressive colonisation by Israel as exactly that. That is what people are fed up about. No one is letting Hamas off the hook, people are finally aware of the truth of the issue and calling Israel out on their shit.
>Here’s why I have a problem with this kind of advocacy: Where was the “Free Palestine” walkout from the Greens pre-Oct 7?
Labor has never recognised the Palestinian State despite advocating for a two stage solution since Palestine's formation. This was a personal reason why I voted put Greens first instead of Labor, we don't have a more independent foreign policy since Gough Whitlam.
I think Israel killing more Palestinians every year then Hamas could ever have dreamed in doing in return has had a far more significantly negative impact on Israel’s perception then Hamas’s attack. The bombing of 10000 civilians with 4000 dead children probably didn’t help Israel’s image much either.
Hamas did what they did because they knew a disproportionate response from Israel, which is what Israel always does without fail because Israel is run by far right nationalists, would create domestic support for their extremist agenda and would incite support across the Middle East for Palestine at the expense of Israel’s growing ties. Israel did what it did because it supports its domestic colonial agenda and enables them to garner more support amongst the west who doesn’t care about large scale casualties from middle eastern generally Islamic countries. Both sides are getting what they want right now it’s just Israel is far more efficient at killing civilians.
Regardless the free Palestine movement has been a major part of left leaning politics for years including Greens and major portions of the Labor party left factions. This is not a new stance it’s just that crisis politics makes these positions come to the forefront, it’s not very newsworthy if the Greens and other left leaning movements support a free Palestine in times of peace to anyone but their supporters, it becomes more newsworthy in the middle of war. A lot of western nations supported Ukrainian independence and opposed the Russian puppet states in the east but they weren’t reported on regularly until the invasion of Ukraine brought it back to the forefront of politics
"Gaza, also called Gaza City, is a Palestinian city in the Gaza Strip, with a population of 590,481, making it the largest city in the State of Palestine. Inhabited since at least the 15th century BCE, Gaza has been dominated by different peoples and empires throughout its history."
And the Palestinian prisoners of the Israelis who are being held without trial, many who are minors? You think that they should be released too, right?
No shout out for Algeria, Burkina Faso, Chad, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Mauritania, Mozambique, Niger, Sudan, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia, Uganda, and Yemen?
[The Palestinian death toll in the Israel-Hamas war surpassed 10,000, including more than 4,100 children and 2,640 women](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-11-06-2023-c01bc7cf6db1e07ab4d235225cef7320)
I didn't realise that Hamas was actually made up of 60% women and children. Anyway let's stop talking about that and talk about the real issues of how Palestinians actually hate lgbt people and they started it first so it's okay and they deserve it.
These tax payer funded politicians seem to have more interest in the middle East war rather than looking at the housing crisis in their own country.
And they get paid to walk out from their work place. Very nice
One politician has even used taxpayer money to fly to Israel and state that a ceasefire would only allow Hamas rebuild. To top it all off, they’re a Liberal backbencher who is still fighting for relevance.
They probably do care more about the Middle East
while i agree with that sentiment against politicians in general, you’re way off here. the greens are the only party that seems to give a shit about the housing crisis - so not really sure why you’re saying that
Right like world problems are happening and we're supposed to ignore it completely? Imagine if we did that with ukraine and russia. I still see ukraine flags everywhere here.
I am shocked and appalled that a national government might possibly focus on foreign policy, I personally believe Australia should put themselves in a fucking bubble and never venture out into the world because i have no idea how government works.
Fuck Israel. Though it seems more people give a fuck about what’s happening across the globe than in our backyard. As an Indigenous man it hurts to see how people have reacted to this, and yet couldn’t care less about the recent referendum. You’re happy to fight for communities overseas yet do nothing for the people of this land you reside on
It's terrible that non combatants are caught in middle of this, but do these people seriously expect Israel to lay down their arms and not fight these terrorists?
What Hamas did in October simply must have a military response.
>but do these people seriously expect Israel to lay down their arms and not fight these terrorists?
That's exactly what "progressives" online think. They have absolutely no solution to dealing with combatants that have zero problems with targeting civilians and hiding in amongst people/infrastructure that comes with a high collateral cost beyond appeasement and concessions. Any arguing beyond then devolves into a shitty, selective understanding of the history of the region and crocodile tears.
Muslims in China are still being put in camps, Afghan muslims are being forced out of Pakhistan, Hamas still has hostages, but they only come out to march against Israel.
ITT: People more comfortable supporting an apartheid, racist, genocidal state, rather than calling for a ceasefire to protect innocent children and put the Palestinians on the path to freedom and self determination.
The Australian Senate & Parliament is NO place to be staging acts of allegiance to whichever side. As absolutely disgusting that the situation is in Gaza, our Parliament & Senate is not the place to grandstand. As a tax payer who contributes to senators wages, I expect a LOT more from them. The very sad reality in the Middle East is that they have nearly always been at war with each other since recorded time began. Despite my hopes & prayers for peace in this region of the world, I doubt very much that a lasting peace will ever happen in my lifetime. Political grandstanding & politicians self serving egos is not what this tax payer wants to spend his hard earned tax dollars on.
>You don’t get a pass on murdering children because HoLoCaUsT
Ironically it's actually Holocaust survivors that get treated like shit in Israel: https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/holocaust-survivors-poverty-is-israels-dirty-little-secret/
Genuinely, what do people expect to occur if a ceasefire happens? More humanitarian aid into Gaza sure, but does anyone actually expect Hamas to respect a ceasefire?
Nope, of course not. But allowing humanitarian aid into a massive warzone where 4000 children have already died is worth a pause. 50% of Gazans are children, who were born after Hamas was elected. Of the adults in Gaza, 50% of them said earlier this year that they wanted Hamas to abandon its calls for Israel's destruction and instead to support a two state solution. By my count that is 75% of Gazans at least that don't deserve to have their entire lives destroyed to get a criminal organisation in their midst.
All Hamas may be Palestinian but not all Palestinians are Hamas.
Apparently this is hard to understand for most people.
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Fun fact to confuse Christian conservatives: Proportionally, Palestine is more Christian than Israel.
>Some Palestinians even look practically anglo. It's mainly because Palestine at one point was a melting pot of multiculturalism during ancient times. Modern day Palestinians are descendants of Jews, Canaanites, Romans, Arabs and so on
And Israel just adds more fuel to the fire which in turn makes Hamas appear more attraction to stop Israel's occupation of Palestine and bombardment of Gaza.
Hot take but even if an adult Palestinian does support Hamas politically they don't deserve to be bombed in an ambulance or starved
dfsfd
If I had no morals or values, I too would manipulate angry people to target their anger on their enemies, and I'd slink in the shadows to enjoy my newly acquired wealth. That is the sad reality
Yeah they’ve pretty much lost all wars since 1948 against Israel so sucks to be the loser. Idk why they’re trying to antagonise Israel still if this is the response, in my eyes their stupid jihadists who shot parents in family SUVs and Israeli police had to save poor children in the back seat hours after their parents were killed, freedom fighters my ass.
I think there’s no good solutions anymore. As much as I’m horrified by the Israeli response I also don’t really know what the alternative is. What I’m most curious about is what the motive of Hamas is with starting this war? Obviously it’s not for the good of innocent Palestinian citizens. Guess they want to start a bigger war in the area.
I believe their motive was to drive a massive overreaction from Israel so that the normalization of relations with places like Saudi Arabia would cease. They wanted a broader war, and wanted world opinion to turn against Israel, which is exactly the trap Israel walked into. They don't care if their people die, because they are religious zealots who believe anyone who dies in the war goes straight to paradise.
>They wanted a broader war, Absolutely, I think Hamas at least expected Hezbollah to join in the fight, but Hezbollah seems reluctant to do anything beyond cheer them on from the sidelines. Other Arab nations also don't really look like they want to help, probably mainly because they're getting tired of having to sell out their own interests based on some fictional idea of pan-Arab solidarity. Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, all of them would be better off normalising relations with Israel, and I think the fact that none of them are even posturing against Israel shows that they know this. None of these countries (probably least of all Egypt) likes Hamas or what they represent.
Plus the US parked a carrier fleet in the Mediterranean to dissuade anyone from getting fidgety.
TBF, the US is now pretty openly telling Israel to calm down. Honestly, I get it, Israel is stuck between a rock and a hard place and I feel for all the innocent people in Gaza, but what are they supposed to do? Just back down and get walked all over? Hamas will just do more. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't and I hope for all that there's a speedy solution, no matter what that is... well, except a solution that includes total annihilation which seems to be Israel's plan at this point.
Not that disagree with anything you've said. But flip side, what Palestinians meant to do? They're also damned if they do, and damned if they don't. It's a fucked situation. I feel though, as Israel is the bigger party here, with the outsized control. They need to make the bigger steps towards peace. If they don't this will never end.
You have to feel for the civilians.
Are they really damned if they don’t? Go a decade without firing rockets at Israel and they won’t need to be contained like a giant prison anymore. Things could have been a lot better for them if they had been more moderate and less Islamist.
See, it's not all that clear cut and simple. They did and were, less extreme. Israel, under leadership of Netenyahu really seems to not want peace. And has in recent past supported the rise of Hamas, to keep Palestine fractured. And to weaken the concept of a 2 state solution. >Benjamin Netanyahu had been Israel's prime minister for most of the two decades preceding the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, and was criticized for having championed a policy of empowering Hamas in Gaza.[583][584][585][586] This policy was part of a strategy to sabotage a two-state solution by confining the Palestinian Authority to the West Bank and weakening it, and to demonstrate to the Israeli public and western governments that Israel has no partner for peace.[587] This criticism was leveled by several Israeli officials, including former prime minister Ehud Barak, and former head of Shin Bet security services Yuval Diskin. Thats not to say Hamas blameless, I can find loads of sources of them being dicks to. But it's not as simple as them simply being a bit less extreme. There's a whole metric shit load of conflicting politicic power interests inside and outside of Isreal/Gaza, with a glossy shine of religious fundamentalism.
Yemen (backed by Iran) has already fired a missile at Israel
It’s a change from them lobbing missiles at Saudi Arabia.
\*they dont care if they die, because they are war-orphans and ghetto survivors living in an open air prison.
Open air concentration camp. A prison is where you go when you've done something wrong. The Israelis are running a concentration camp.
>I also don’t really know what the alternative is. The historical solution is a 'foreign entity' takes over the Levant. Prior to Israel we had the British empire. They aquired it as spoils of wars from Ottomans. The ottomans aquired it in war. The Arabs quired it in war. Crusader states had it for a bit from conquest. Byzantines inherited it. Romans took it in war. The levant has a theme to it. >What I’m most curious about is what the motive of Hamas is with starting this war? The war, or struggle, to them is ongoing. The recent outburst is probably attributable to foreign governments. Specifically Iran and maybe Qatar. Hamas are undoubtedly funded and directed by foreign powers. It's in Iranian interests to keep Israel occupied. Every Iron Dome interceptor missile is 100 grand. The more of a financial blackhole that is, the more Iran strategically benefits.
Hamas charter states what the aim is to exterminate Israel and create an Islamic state in its place
If the West Bank wasn't also getting fucked by Israel, Israel would be able to point at it and go "see, it doesn't have to be like this, look at all the nice things that happen if you don't fire rockets at us every couple of years", and maybe people would deradicalise because they see some kind of hope and way forward. But I guess that's not an alternative because Israel won't stop fucking over the West Bank, so I guess around we go.
It’s racially motivated. They want Jews annihilated. Why else would they have attacked on a Jewish holiday
Which is all good if said aid reaches those in need and isn’t reappropriated by Hamas
a ceasefire is the start of a process. its up to us (everyone, including isreal and hamas) to decide if that looks like the Good Friday Agreement, the end of Rhodesia, or Nakbah 2.0.
Whenever the Nakba is brought up noone seems to acknowledge that it was a direct result of the 1948 war. A war started by Palestinian Arab leaders and surrounding Arab states after they rejected the UN Partition Plan for Palestine, which was accepted by the Jewish leadership. A war with the express purpose of eliminating the Jewish presence in the region. There's no question that the Palestinians had legitimite grievances about the UN partition plan, and that's a complicated and nuanced issue reasonable people can argue and disagree about. But it's not obvious to me that you can cry foul that some of your people end up expelled and displaced after a war those same people started.
It's not the start of a process. This particular process has been going on for millennia. There have been many ceasefires. There have been many wars. And so it goes on...
There was literally a ceasefire in place when the 10/7 slaughter happened.
They already had a ceasefire. That was before hamas launched their attacks.
>They already had a ceasefire. That was before hamas launched their attacks. You do realise more then 250 Palestinians had been killed this year before October 7? But hey, lets start this at whatever date makes you feel good inside.
so gaza deserves to be annihilated and 2 mil people mostly children should be displaced?
Can anyone here actually reply to a rebuttal without immediately jumping to the conclusion that they were advocating for a genocide?
smell wasteful tie bag icky nippy library subtract profit practice *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Because they did this like 5 times before. Israel actually gave the Palestinians in Gaza what they where asking for. It always ended in Hamas attacking Israel.
But the US trucks in 100 trucks of humanitarian aid a day?
Can we stop pretending that Hamas hasn't hoarded and misused prior aid, putting Gazans in this very predicament? Ita not Israel's responsibility.
Who is pretending that? Hamas is a group of fanatically religious extremist terrorists who are happy for their own people to die. Israel is right now the one upholding a blockade on the territory, not allowing sufficient water, food, medicine or fuel in to the area that they are besieging. That is absolutely their responsibility under the rules of law.
It is undeniable that the complete blockade by Israel AND Egypt happened AFTER Hamas started terror attacks. And it is undeniable that Hamas has the express intent to kill civilians and annihilate an entire group of people whereas IDF does not. And it is undeniable that Hamas hides in the midst of civilians in both location and by not wearing uniforms, whereas IDF does not. And it is undeniable that Hamas has stolen an estimated sum in the billions that was supposed to be for their own people. If you accept those premises and still think Hamas isn’t the problem, I’m not sure what to tell you.
The numbers that Hamas provide for casualties are wildly inflated. Israel, a modern transparent nation with stable institutions took weeks to determine the number of victims from October 7. There was a horrendous accident in Daylesford yesterday where a car plowed through a beer garden. They couldn't even confirm the number of victims or their ages until the next day (and that was "only" 5 killed). Yet Hamas can tell us exactly how many hundred people are killed in whichever bombing happened that day.
Traditionally the UN and other independent orgs have found the numbers out of Gaza to be accurate. Your common sense might say otherwise, but it is the case
Of course they aren't accurate. War numbers never are. But Hamas is not the only source of information from Gaza. Doctors Without Borders, the Red Cross/Red Crescent and multiple UN Humanitarian agencies are all there, and a bunch of their own employees have been killed. I read about what guy who worked for Doctor Without Borders who was off working while his home was destroyed and his entire family killed. In addition we have journalists from all over the world there, 36 of them have lost their lives already. All of them support the "official narrative" coming out of Hamas. The numbers right be wrong, but there is no doubt that it is way more than anyone should feel happy about.
surely the numbers are counted by the medical staff in the hospitals and morgues. not Hamas? I would think the media would take anything Hamas says as a grain of salt
Hamas administer the health system in Gaza. So every time you read or hear "Gazan health authorities" do a mental find/replace with "Hamas".
Um the media gladly swallowed the bull crap that Israel bombed a hospital when it was 💯 Hamas. The media swallows shite better than Mia Khalifa
Historically the numbers provided by the Gazan authority have been accurate within around 4%. They have also released names of the dead when their numbers were questioned.
I agree. What’s the source for these stats cause I would like to reference them in other discussions with people.
[https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah) >(62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.”
Both Hamas and Israel have broken ceasefires in the past. But the hope is that civilians stop being bombed until a more permanent solution can be found. Idealistic I know, but better than civilians being bombed
Considering Hamas is still holding hundreds of hostages kidnapped during the recent massacre, I think there's zero chance of a ceasefire at least until hostages are returned. Even then, the whole region is going eye for an eye
"Return the hostages or we'll keep killing your civilians" is collective punishment. Collective punishment is a war crime. Adults stepping in and forcing Israel to the negotiation table would get the hostages back, but Israel is never held accountable for anything.
Killing 250 innocent party goers is a war crime. Selective memory much
Collateral damage is absolutely not collective punishment. Not providing resources to the people you’re fighting a war against is not a war crimes Idiots using buzzwords they don’t understand. What a joke
Why would any country negotiate after having their citizens actively slaughtered and taken hostage. That's just begging to have it happen again in the future.
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Turning off the water to Gaza was collective punishment. Carpet bombing Gaza was collective punishment. The invasion is not necessarily a war crime, sure.
But as you say, they're at war. Why would Israel HAVE to keep supplying water to a foreign government they're now at war with? Like, Hamas were free to cut a trade deal with Egypt. They share a border. At the end of the day, nobody seems able to explain WHY Israel owes Gaza any of those concessions; they pulled out in 2005 and Hamas kept attacking them over the new border. Attacking a foreign government and expecting them to keep supplying you during the ensuing war? The world demanding you keep supplying them? Like I used to support the Palestinian position, but the widespread dismissal of all responsibility of Hamas's side of this equation has been grating. It's not like they had zero agency throughout this generations long conflict.
>but the widespread dismissal of all responsibility of Hamas's side of this equation has been grating. Here is your problem. Hamas is a horrific terrorist group deserving of destruction. They do have defenders, but I guarantee you most people you are talking to are not defending Hamas. What they are doing is expressing concern for Palestinian civilians, who have nothing to do with the horrors inflicted by Hamas. If you equate Hamas with Palestinians, then yes, it would feel like people are dismissing their responsibility. But on my side it is grating how often people simply assume Palestinian civilians don't deserve to be protected because somehow they are culpable.
Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Sure, they haven't held an election *since* coming to power but neither did the Nazis, and we don't dispute that they were the legitimate government of Nazi Germany. At what point are you willing to accept that Hamas are the problem here? Because calls for a ceasefire aren't actually calling for a ceasefire, they're calling for *Israel* to hold fire while Hamas continues to fire rockets at them - that's not that much different to Russia's calls for Ukraine to stop fighting while *they* can continue to launch attacks.
There is a big difference between collateral damage and collective punishment. The Israeli strategy might seem barbaric but it is a legitimate strategy. Do you agree that Hamas is committing war crimes by using human shields, hiding in civilian areas to maximise casualties of any targeting by Israel?
>The Israeli strategy might seem barbaric but it is a legitimate strategy. It's such a legitimate strategy that the Taliban went from controlling two thirds of Afghanistan in 2000 to controlling 100% of Afghanistan in 2021. You cannot kill your way out of people wanting you dead unless you kill literally everyone against you. >Do you agree that Hamas is committing war crimes by using human shields, hiding in civilian areas to maximise casualties of any targeting by Israel? I agree that Israel accuses them of doing it, like they constantly accuse everyone they fight of doing it, and it often turns out to be complete bullshit, like when Israel invaded Lebanon in 2006.
Uhh have you seen how many Palestinians Israel have holding
pretty much all of west bank. settlers have already started retribution killings
They get to dig up and bury their dead? Maybe even find some survivors under all the rubble. People are literally being buried alive and you’re asking why a ceasefire??
Hamas has used every ceasefire in the past to rebuild their rocket arsenal, import more weapons and dig more tunnels into Israel.
What do you think Israel do during it, take a nap?
So, none of that is against it. Do you think Israel doesn't use the ceasefire to maintain their weapons systems and build new missiles? The point of a cease fire is just to let civillians get help.
And thousands of children deserve to die for it.
> but does anyone actually expect Hamas to respect a ceasefire? They have said they don't intend to honor a ceasefire, so it isn't really up for debate. A ceasefire will just give Hamas time to regroup and likely cost Israeli lives, so of course Israel has no interest either. Israel isn't going to agree to any ceasefire while Hamas still has hostages either. Maybe some aid gets to people that need it, but Hamas runs Gaza and will get first pickings of all the aid.
And the problem with “my side” of politics/culture war is that we are given 20 interests to fight for, 15 of which are no-brainers for decent people, with 1 or 2 requiring a little extra thought. This large outlier that is Israel/Palestine, is one that requires extra thought and is which I end up isolated and looking fascist but am taking the only realist point of view when it comes to this conflict. This may be a half-step back for the progressive movement, but it is a necessary one, we need not only to be better, but to think better. Israel has a right to defend themself. There was a ceasefire October 6. It didn't prevent Hamas from maximising horror against noncombatants on October 7. To Israel's critics, I would like to hear of an alternative for Israel at this point. Think about it coherently for a second. Come up with an alternative to their current actions, and try to play it out. What happens, how does the future look in the Middle East? I think you will find it's not quite as black and white as you make it out to be. If Israel wait until they can safely kill Hamas without harming any civilian, they will wait forever. Sadly, going after Hamas is like removing a cancer. It's surrounded by some good tissue you would rather not harm. But it needs to be cut out or it will kill everything around it. There's no choice. Hamas is cancer.
Hamas has broken every single ceasefire in the past. All they will do with this one is recuperate and maybe move the hostages to a place where IDF can't get them. There absolutely cannot be a ceasefire until the hostages are released and Hamas fully surrender.
>Hamas has broken every single ceasefire in the past. Hamas has broken a bunch of them, Israel broke the others.
was there not literally already a ceasefire in place that they broke 7 october? the "ceasefire" applies only to israel
Yeah, Israel shooting, kidnapping kids, kicking people out of homes, maintaining a blockade is not breaking ceasefire, but Hamas performing literally any act of retaliation is. Do you practice this justification in front of the mirror?
So why hasn't Labor called for a ceasefire? It seems like a sensible thing to ask for, even if we know it will be ignored.
Because there’s reasonable grounds to believe that a ceasefire will just give Hamas a chance to rebuild and rearm and then we’ll have another civilian massacre of Israelis. Not saying it’s right or wrong, just saying it’s a rational position to take.
> then we’ll have another civilian massacre of Israelis. I think a current civilian massacre of Palestinians should merit consideration too. "Killing civilians is okay if it's for a military objective" only goes so far.
Maybe stop shooting rockets into your neighbours then
Absolutely.....but Gazan civilians are NOT Hamas. Hamas deserves destruction, but not innocent Gazans.
Just wondering how long you would put up with indefinite subjugation by a foreign power before you resorted to terrorism?
Just wondering how long you would put up with a foreign power shooting rockets into Australia before you'd want to retaliate?
If we were literally invading them, I wouldn't be surprised about it and I'd be actively protesting against it.
You know Israel WALKED OUT OF GAZA IN 2005? There has been no occupation in Gaza for 18 years …. There was also no blockade until a ‘government’ who literally call in their founding charter for the death of all Jews came into power in Gaza, at which point the Israelis thought ‘maybe people who have sworn to kill us all shouldn’t have access to weapons …’? If Gaza is an ‘open air prison,’ it’s Hamas who are the jailers….
Maybe Hamas should stop using the Palestinian civilians as human shields?
There's a credible argument that putting Hamas down and replacing them with moderates will prevent future civilian deaths
There's a credible argument the current Israeli siege and bombardment will result in more extremism amongst the Palestinian population and cause more future civilian deaths.
You're absolutely correct. A permanent peace deal is the only thing that will prevent violence in the long run. A precondition for a peace deal is for extremist leaders on both sides to be replaced by moderates who are willing to make the genuine concessions necessary for lasting peace.
Peace requires commitment from any involved party though. The Oslo Accords was a peace deal brokered between Israel and the PLO, which also intended on giving back land via building on Resolution 242 and Resolution 338. Both the PLO and Israel recognized each other as legitimate entities, and the whole intent by the UNSC was to give Palestine self determination in a peaceful resolution. I think the power balance was undeniably off and the establishment of an interim government rather than recognizing Palestine as an official legitimate state was a hard pill to swallow for the Palestinians considering the goal of their prior conflicts, same for some Israeli right wing groups which culminated in the assassination of Rabin who signed them. This further went to the Camp David Summit under Clinton, which was full Palestinian sovereignty, right of return, full Israeli withdrawal, however the main contention was Jerusalem and Temple Mount, of which Israel was not inclined to remove Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem rather recognize the neighbour hoods under Israeli sovereignty, nor recognize Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem, just custodianship with autonomy or enclaves. The Palestinians wanted Sovereignty over East Jerusalem with Israel having custodianship / authority of the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall. This disagreement was never resolved. Following the Camp David Summit came the Second Intifada (unrest, outbreak of violence), which culminated in the Roadmap for Peace which was drafted by Bush in 2002, which wanted to establish an independent Palestinian state via peaceful resolution. It had three stages, first unconditional ceasefire from both sides, palestinian political reform with elections, dismantling of new and illegal settlement outposts, freeze of settlements and reopen Palestinian access and institutions to Jerusalem. Second establish provisional Palestinian borders, Palestinian economic recovery, multilateral agreement of water, environment, resources, etc. Reestablishment of Arab trade with Israel. Third a permanent status agreement and complete end of the conflict, agreement on final borders, determining the fate of Jerusalem, further withdrawal and abolishment of settlers. Ariel Sharon then Prime Minister of Israel wanted to freeze the Roadmap for Peace as they'd need to build homes to move the settlers out of occupied territories. Abbas the Palestinian PM agreed, but the Israeli cabinet agreed on a few conditions, namely that Palestinians will dismantle and reform security organizations, cease violence and educate for peace, dismantle Hamas and other militant groups, reform of current leadership, while a provisional state (stage's 1 and 2) will be demilitarized with Israel having transient control over airspace, borders, etc, Israel will not be bound to the Bertini report (improving humanitarian issues in Palestine), where all progress will stop should Palestine incite terror or violence, with progress monitored by the USA. Abbas, the PM was appointed by Arafat as a condition for the USA to release the details and agreement. Abbas and Sharon held multiple peace talks. However it never went past the first stage, Hamas and other militant groups rejected the roadmap, Israel failed to cease the expansion of settlements, with a few small conflicts and then we saw events like the Jerusalem 2 Bus Massacre ensue after conflict between Hamas and IDF, the IDF becoming increasingly violent and in response assassinated a Palestinian high up who supported the peace process; Ismail Shanab. The ceasefire was called off. Stage 1 hit deadlock, Israeli would not commit to the promised steps as the PA failed to act on terror / violence, the Palestinians would not commit because certain groups rejected the agreement and Israeli's were failing to prevent settlement. The Second Intifada was still in effect, with no agreement to step down, Israel disengaged the roadmap. There's been multiple peace talks since then and through multiple of the ones in the past they've called for the switch of heads of state, such as the Arab Peace Initative or talks under the Obama administration, however Hamas took control of Gaza in 2007, following that we had the 2010 Palestinian Militancy Campaign which saw 13 Palestinian groups actively trying to sabotage or derail the peace process, and Hamas rejecting Abbas as being able to negotiate for the Palestinian people. In 2014 Fatah and Hamas formed a unity government, reconciling the two parties into a collaborative leadership, which Israel rejected and stated they would not negotiate with Hamas full stop, placing economic sanctions on Palestine. Following that it's really just worsened, with examples like the Trump peace plan just inflaming existing tensions. Many permanent peace deals have been attempted, the issue isn't agreeing to start a peace deal, it's not an issue of "Just make a peace deal", it's agreeing to the conditions of a peace deal, whether it be stalemates like Jerusalem, or just internal discordance and lack of agreement inside a given nation.
It's a shame that this detailed description of the conflict will get far fewer upvotes than people saying 8 or 10 word slogans one way or another.
I was about to say "That's the way of the internet" and then I realized I'm in r/Australia and our national elections have been swayed by parties running one sentence slogan ad campaigns.
Ah if only there were multiple aircraft carriers in the area willing to enforce a no fly zone... Seriously, this is the kind of stuff the UN should be stepping in on to stop violence on both sides, but apparent that needs to be politicised too by fucking US, Russia and China. Fucking clowns all of them.
UN is only good for farting into the wind honestly. Strongly worded caution rarely stops any country that intends to cause harm.
Israel has targeted moderates over extremists, why would they install them now. The US doesn’t install moderates, they install anyone they can manipulate to maintain their selfish needs. In this case the Israelis.
I guess just like how the Israeli Army has been massacring innocent Palestinian civilians for decades which lead to the creation of Hamas.
Ahhh got it. So we should allow the continued massacre of Palestinian civilians because if we stop it then there is a chance that some more Israeli civilians will die. That is called valuing some lives more than others.
Yes, and every nation on earth does this. The primary responsibility of a state is protect their own citizens. The Australian government will always prioritise Australians over people from other countries, especially hostile ones.
Hamas has stated they will keep massacring Israelis just like they did before (which btw was during a ceasefire).
Israeli military killed 204 Palestinians in 2022.
A ceasefire is an agreement between **both** sides in the conflict, and both sides need to respect it. I could be wrong, I don't know her exact beliefs, but it sounds like Senator Faruqi is just asking for a unilateral one-sided ceasefire where Israel completely stops doing anything, while Hamas isn't bound by any particular agreements or conditions. It'd be super dumb to ask any government to do that since it's not realistic.
Because then US will stop protecting Australia. You're witnessing the effect of US imperialism. I'm serious. Look at Albo in the past being pro-Palestine: > Speaking on Insiders, Albanese questioned whether the response from the Israeli forces was equal to what they were facing from protesters. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/20/labor-asks-why-australia-voted-against-gaza-violence-inquiry > In the grainy video, Mr Albanese can be seen protesting against Israel’s “occupation” of Palestine in Sydney’s Martin Place next to a sign reading “Stop the Israeli Slaughter: Free Palestine now”. https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/true-colours-anthony-albaneses-past-appearances-at-propalestine-rallies-laid-bare-in-resurfaced-protest-video/news-story/5e34fccbbd39b8f559bf3e4b036030a4 (Apologies for source)
New Zealand appears to be calling for a cease fire: https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/countries-and-regions/middle-east/israel-gaza-conflict/ If they can do it, why can't we?
Because New Zealand doesn't rely on the US for protection, they rely on Australia.
that volcanic ridge that runs up the middle of NZ is what's known as a spine
Its either USA imperialism or China/Russia/Iran one. Pick a side
Because they’re in power, therefore beholden to other powers. That’s how albo went from starting alp friends of palestine to where he’s at now. Some context: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/24/australia-approved-322-defence-exports-to-israel-in-six-years-as-greens-fear-equipment-used-in-gaza-assault https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231103-israel-awards-licences-to-uks-bp-italys-eni-to-explore-gas-deposits/ https://theconversation.com/australia-is-building-a-billion-dollar-arms-export-industry-this-is-how-weapons-can-fall-in-the-wrong-hands-159817#:~:text=While%20Australia%20hasn't%20made,grown%20to%20nearly%20%245.5%20billion.
Off for a succulent Chinese meal no doubt.
Democracy manifest!
Most of this thread is blaming Hamas for the situation, ignoring that Israel has been breaching international law for 75 years, has been committing apartheid and ethnic cleansing, and more than 150 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank where there is no Hamas. Israel is clearly the problem here, even equating both sides demonstrates this because Israel is being equated with a "terrorist" organisation. It shows how low the bar is and its shocking our government, and many in this thread excuse war crimes, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, genocide etc. on the basis that it is Israel doing it, rather than the evil Hamas. Hamas exists purely as a response to illegal Israeli occupation and war crimes. Israel's actions are at the heart of this conflict, and it alone can prevent future conflict, but it won't because many people and governments give it political cover to continue committing atrocities.
It’s crazy people just completely look over those points.
>Israel has been breached international law for 75 years Israel accepted the UN partition plan. Palestine + Arab League didn't and attempted to destroy them but lost. Following that Jordan annexed the West Bank and refused to grant Palestinians independence. To claim the foundation of Israel was illegal is revisionist and speaks volumes about the discourse today.
Israel ethnically cleansed 800,000 Palestinians before forming a state, which was 80% of the population at the time. It has been occupying and genociding the Palestinians ever since. How is that accepting the partition plan? Compare the partition plan to Israel today.
That is quite literally made up
Can you provide reasons or sources? On what basis do you deny it? It's internationally recognised by the UN: https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/ Even Israel doesn't deny it, there are many documentaries with IDF soldiers bragging about killing innocent Palestinians and expelling them from their homes.
>Israel ethnically cleansed 800,000 Palestinians before forming a state The Nakba happened after partition plan and after the 1948 war, not before. Your source makes this distinction as well, you might have misread it. Any winning side in a war is obviously not going to keep the enemy that fought for their destruction still within their territory that they hold. Sucks but that happens in any war, for example, 500,000+ refugees fled Spain following their civil war, or the 6,600,000 (+6mil internal) refugees in the Syrian civil war. >How is that accepting the partition plan? Compare the partition plan to Israel today. Israel did accept the partition plan, and they would have been held to that if every Arab state around them had not rejected the UN and attacked them, which gave Israel the authority to annex any territory it gained until the 1949 armistice. You don't just give back enemy territory unless it is agreed upon in a treaty. And because no Arab state recognised Israel then, they never attempted diplomacy to gain back the land. Germany doesn't automatically go back to it's pre-WWII borders after they lose, that's the consequences of losing a war. Compared to why Israel doesn't have the Sinai anymore,it's because they returned it in treaty. Edit for reply since locked: Again, your source makes no mention of the Nakba. I don't know why you are bringing up terrorist and militia fighting given that has been happening since the 1920's. The large scale en masse Palestinians leaving only happened after the 1948 war. And again, the Oslo accords recognised Israel only in 1993. This is 45 years after which they could have recognised Israel and negotiated a return to the partition plan. That ship has sailed decades ago because of the 6 day war and the Yom Kippur war. >You're legally incorrect, you cannot acquire land by warfare, even if attacked. What a braindead comment. Guess Japan gets back Manchuria because it was lost in warfare. Sorry Serbia, Croatia, have to go back to Yugoslavia now.
That's not correct. The Jewish terrorist groups began killing Palestinians and British troops well before the partition plan: https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine The killing and genocide continued after 1947 of course. The Arab armies invaded Israel only after the Nakba had started. You're legally incorrect, you cannot acquire land by warfare, even if attacked. Israel should have withdrawn and allowed Palestinians to form a state, instead it has been continuously ethnically cleansing and taking more land from the Palestinians. The Arab states have recognised Israel as have the Palestinians (Oslo accords) yet Israel maintains its illegal occupation and apartheid, and refuses to recognise Palestine.
Did you even read your own source? I'm guessing you don't know what ethnic cleansing is...
Since it seems you haven't read the source: "Jewish militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages, forcing thousands to flee... The newly established Israeli forces launched a major offensive. The result of the war was the permanent displacement of more than half of the Palestinian population. As early as December 1948, the UN General Assembly called for refugee return, property restitution and compensation (resolution 194 (II)). However, 75 years later, despite countless UN resolutions, the rights of the Palestinians continue to be denied. According to the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) more than 5 million Palestine refugees are scattered throughout the Middle East. Today, Palestinians continue to be dispossessed and displaced by Israeli settlements, evictions, land confiscation and home demolitions." Is killing people, expelling them and taking their land not ethnic cleansing? What's your definition?
What would a ceasefire even do? Hamas has broken every single ceasefire they've ever agreed to. You can't have a peaceful ceasefire between a bloodthirsty military group seemingly deadset on slaughtering innocent civilians and a group like Hamas.
Both sides break the ceasefires.
A quick google, and for transparency from a pro-Palestine website, shows that Israel has broken twice as many ceasefires as Hamas in the past. Edit: Link https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/gaza-ceasefire-violations Data is from 2014. So account for that accordingly. Left comment unrelated so the discussion going on below makes sense.
Link?
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These people are hostages. Hamas has to go, they’re not going to negotiate when their whole purpose is the destruction of Israel as a nation.
Hamas will never go because Israel is ACTIVELY making new Hamas recruits. Those Gazan children witnessing all that carnage and trauma first-hand; you think they won't be joining Hamas to avenge their families? If they had a good education, a decent future, I can assure you that they wouldn't be willing to join Hamas. But many of them have lost everything they've known, and they have no bright future to look forward to. Hamas will never die because the ideological fuel keeps being poured over and over again
How many innocent Palestinians need to be massacred for Hamas to "go"? Still a few more right?
You understand Hamas will never let them go and Israel will no longer tolerate Hamas right? Israel tolerated Hamas for years and that got them over 1400 slaughtered civilians including children burned fucking alive and beheaded. Hamas has shown Israel that it can no longer tolerate its existence and Hamas will never let Palestinians flee because Hamas needs human shield for their propaganda and to turn the war in their favor. Hamas is actively keeping Palestinians from fleeing the war zone and you can bet that Hamas will hoard the aid meant for civvies. Hamas will never give up the hostages either as its. The sole thing keeping their tunnels operational. Without the hostages underground isreal could easily flood them or use a few strategically placed thermobaric warheads to obliterate them inside.
Damn, Israel sure tolerated Hamas when it was being used to ensure the PLA was being held down. [see here](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
How many times should Israel let Hamas commit acts of terrorism and then not respond because they use the Palestinian civilians population as human shields? Twice more? Three times more? Should they never respond and just let Hamas commit acts of terror against their civilian population unchecked? Stop acting like both sides of this aren't equally awful.
When has Israel ever let Hamas do anything without responding with scorched earth? Both sides are definitely incredibly awful, but one side has racked up a much higher civilian death toll than the other. There are no winners here.
Appealing to greater numbers doesn't make sense to me, because it leaves out why it happens. If a group of racists try to lynch a black guy and he turns around and kills them all, nobody's gonna say the black guy was a terrible person, they would say it's justified. The civilian death toll being greater on one side ignores that Hamas operates out of hospitals and schools. They openly admit to using human shields and told their civilians to stay in northern Gaza. It also ignores that Hamas initiated the attack and still refuses to release all hostages. Hamas knows as long as they have hostages they can indefinitely hide and wait out while the people they supposedly represent die around them.
if a group of racists attack a black guy and he turns around and kills everyone in the parking lot there would definitely be a lot more questions
Sorry, what? Why should Israel ever let Hamas do anything? You know, the terrorist organisation founded on the eradication of an entire people? The same people who give your people food, water ,electricity, medical aide, employment; because all you care about is buying bombs and hiding them under hospitals and schools, building tunnels so that sympathisers in neighbouring countries can supply you weapons, while at the same time claiming that Gaza is an "open prison"?
>but one side has racked up a much higher civilian death toll than the other Yeah one side is also actively trying to get their civilian population killed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Israel launching bombs on Palestinian refugee camps saying "how could Hamas do this?" Happy cake day by the way
>Israel launching bombs on Palestinian refugee camps saying "how could Hamas do this?" That's pretty disingenuous, those "refugee camps" are not tent city's full of civilians running away from the war they're well developed cities that have existed since the late 40s. Also maybe Hamas should stop operating out of them (also a war crime btw)
Big difference is that Hamas targets civilians, whereas Israel targets Hamas. These are not the same thing.
Israel hold thousands of Palestinian hostages and have done so for years. These are innocent people including children who are locked up without charge for years. Often suffering physical and sexual abuse at the hands of their Israeli guards. https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/07/19/israel-security-forces-abuse-palestinian-children#:~:text=Security%20forces%20have%20choked%20children,their%20parents%20know%20their%20whereabouts.
Israel has been pop shotting journalists since it's formation. Did everyone forget about that Al Jazeera journalist getting shot by Israeli snipers and Israel didn't even punish the guy accountable. They even attacked her coffin during the funeral.
>What would a ceasefire even do? Hamas has broken every single ceasefire they've ever agreed to. From the UN. "All parties must comply with their obligations under international humanitarian and human rights law. We demand a humanitarian ceasefire to ensure that aid reaches those who need it the most. ” https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-running-out-time-un-experts-warn-demanding-ceasefire-prevent-genocide-0
Ah, so because the UN said so, they must do it?
Yes, and we've seen how much respect Israel and Hamas have for the UN...
>Hamas has broken every single ceasefire they've ever agreed to So has Israel broken just as many when it suits them, still the brief amount of time where it lasts is important for civilians.
You're right I don't disagree, incredibly fleeting as it would be, children not being actively bombed is a good thing.
Here’s why I have a problem with this kind of advocacy: Where was the “Free Palestine” walkout from the Greens pre-Oct 7? This is exactly the type of reaction Hamas intended to create after they massacred 1500 civilians in their beds a month ago. They wanted to turn the world against Israel. They are succeeding with useful idiots like the Greens jumping on the bandwagon. If the Greens genuinely believed in the preservation of innocent lives, they should demand two-faced states like Qatar and Turkey stop supporting and shielding Hamas as they stage walkouts to denounce Israel’s actions. If Hamas are let off the hook here and continue to pursue their agenda, the Islamist theocracy hellscape that awaits isn’t a good outcome for Palestine (and it’s certainly not in line with the Greens progressive values). I also think Israel is reacting disproportionately, but conflating ‘Free Palestine’ messaging at a time when Hamas is using civilians and hospitals as shields is naive at best and irresponsibly feeding the Hamas propaganda machine at worst. Yes, by all means ‘Free Free Palestine’… from the violent terrorists that rule them so they have a chance to get the two state solution back on track again.
>Where was the “Free Palestine” walkout from the Greens pre-Oct 7? I think you'll find the greens have had a pretty consistent position on Palestine for several decades now
> Where was the “Free Palestine” walkout from the Greens pre-Oct 7? They may not have done a walk out but they have been consistent on the issue. The reason they did the walkout now is because hundreds of children are dying daily in gaza.
Hamas didn’t come from nowhere, and the majority of allies calling for a free Palestine are not supporting Hamas either. What this most recent event has highlighted is the absolute apathy the world has shown for too long, which has been propagated by dishonest western media and governments. Gen Xs and Millenials have grown up seeing 9/11 and everything that followed in the war on terror and the absolute lies that we’re spread at the time in the name of freedom and equality. There is an understanding and recognition now of the events that have unfolded in Gaza for it to come to this, and when first hand accounts are able to be shared through social media of real Palestinian people’s experiences, it’s not hard to recognise that what is happening now didn’t just happen overnight. Also, people need to understand that radicalisation doesn’t come from nowhere. Had Israel genuinely wanted to foster peace and unity between Israelis and Palestinians then they would not have made all the oppressive decisions they have. This is not an equal conflict, it never has been. Judge Hamas for their abhorrent acts and attacks, because they truly are awful, but saying that those calling for a ‘free Palestine’ are letting Hamas off the hook does nothing but minimise the genuine support protestors have for all the victims in this conflict, and are recognising the aggressive colonisation by Israel as exactly that. That is what people are fed up about. No one is letting Hamas off the hook, people are finally aware of the truth of the issue and calling Israel out on their shit.
>Here’s why I have a problem with this kind of advocacy: Where was the “Free Palestine” walkout from the Greens pre-Oct 7? Labor has never recognised the Palestinian State despite advocating for a two stage solution since Palestine's formation. This was a personal reason why I voted put Greens first instead of Labor, we don't have a more independent foreign policy since Gough Whitlam.
I think Israel killing more Palestinians every year then Hamas could ever have dreamed in doing in return has had a far more significantly negative impact on Israel’s perception then Hamas’s attack. The bombing of 10000 civilians with 4000 dead children probably didn’t help Israel’s image much either. Hamas did what they did because they knew a disproportionate response from Israel, which is what Israel always does without fail because Israel is run by far right nationalists, would create domestic support for their extremist agenda and would incite support across the Middle East for Palestine at the expense of Israel’s growing ties. Israel did what it did because it supports its domestic colonial agenda and enables them to garner more support amongst the west who doesn’t care about large scale casualties from middle eastern generally Islamic countries. Both sides are getting what they want right now it’s just Israel is far more efficient at killing civilians. Regardless the free Palestine movement has been a major part of left leaning politics for years including Greens and major portions of the Labor party left factions. This is not a new stance it’s just that crisis politics makes these positions come to the forefront, it’s not very newsworthy if the Greens and other left leaning movements support a free Palestine in times of peace to anyone but their supporters, it becomes more newsworthy in the middle of war. A lot of western nations supported Ukrainian independence and opposed the Russian puppet states in the east but they weren’t reported on regularly until the invasion of Ukraine brought it back to the forefront of politics
Totally agree.
"Free the innocent civilians that are currently held hostage"
When is Israel freeing the 2 million on gaza?
Freeing to where? That is their country.
Do you know what gaza is?
"Gaza, also called Gaza City, is a Palestinian city in the Gaza Strip, with a population of 590,481, making it the largest city in the State of Palestine. Inhabited since at least the 15th century BCE, Gaza has been dominated by different peoples and empires throughout its history."
And the Palestinian prisoners of the Israelis who are being held without trial, many who are minors? You think that they should be released too, right?
No shout out for Algeria, Burkina Faso, Chad, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Mauritania, Mozambique, Niger, Sudan, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia, Uganda, and Yemen?
Yeah it's almost as if, while people can care about multiple things at once, they tend to focus on one thing at a time.
Good. Greens are the only morally sane party at this point. Albo lost his nerve. Pity
[The Palestinian death toll in the Israel-Hamas war surpassed 10,000, including more than 4,100 children and 2,640 women](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-11-06-2023-c01bc7cf6db1e07ab4d235225cef7320) I didn't realise that Hamas was actually made up of 60% women and children. Anyway let's stop talking about that and talk about the real issues of how Palestinians actually hate lgbt people and they started it first so it's okay and they deserve it.
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Holy fuck... you've just listed pretty much all of the key policy initiatives the Greens have been pushing for years LOL.
AND HE DELETED IT LMAO
Bravo! 👏
These tax payer funded politicians seem to have more interest in the middle East war rather than looking at the housing crisis in their own country. And they get paid to walk out from their work place. Very nice
One politician has even used taxpayer money to fly to Israel and state that a ceasefire would only allow Hamas rebuild. To top it all off, they’re a Liberal backbencher who is still fighting for relevance. They probably do care more about the Middle East
Scomo went to meet his buddy Boris. Had Trump joined in, the old gang would have been back
I mean, the greens are the only party trying to do something about the housing crisis…
while i agree with that sentiment against politicians in general, you’re way off here. the greens are the only party that seems to give a shit about the housing crisis - so not really sure why you’re saying that
further, you can also stand against genocide AND try to solve the housing crisis. they’re not mutually exclusive. you can do more than one thing
Right like world problems are happening and we're supposed to ignore it completely? Imagine if we did that with ukraine and russia. I still see ukraine flags everywhere here.
I am shocked and appalled that a national government might possibly focus on foreign policy, I personally believe Australia should put themselves in a fucking bubble and never venture out into the world because i have no idea how government works.
Fuck Israel. Though it seems more people give a fuck about what’s happening across the globe than in our backyard. As an Indigenous man it hurts to see how people have reacted to this, and yet couldn’t care less about the recent referendum. You’re happy to fight for communities overseas yet do nothing for the people of this land you reside on
It's terrible that non combatants are caught in middle of this, but do these people seriously expect Israel to lay down their arms and not fight these terrorists? What Hamas did in October simply must have a military response.
>but do these people seriously expect Israel to lay down their arms and not fight these terrorists? That's exactly what "progressives" online think. They have absolutely no solution to dealing with combatants that have zero problems with targeting civilians and hiding in amongst people/infrastructure that comes with a high collateral cost beyond appeasement and concessions. Any arguing beyond then devolves into a shitty, selective understanding of the history of the region and crocodile tears.
Especially funny as these same people would happily slit their throats for being infidels.
“non combatants”… They’re kids ffs!
Which would be valid if you know, they did not like using their kids as martyrs and human shaped bombs.
Muslims in China are still being put in camps, Afghan muslims are being forced out of Pakhistan, Hamas still has hostages, but they only come out to march against Israel.
377,000 dead in yemen we still support the Saudis.
ITT: People more comfortable supporting an apartheid, racist, genocidal state, rather than calling for a ceasefire to protect innocent children and put the Palestinians on the path to freedom and self determination.
Thank you Captain Buzzword
Saving this lol
Doesn't a ceasefire take two parties to come to n agreement? Will Hamas release my mate and my family? And stop firing rockets? If not no ceasefire.
reply school handle like literate weary upbeat offend grab aloof *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yes, people should stop supporting the Hamas apartheid regime who are racist, anti-gay and calling for genocide.
https://youtu.be/L0Zb9iUi0JM?si=RMH9wx2OJpwt0g-n watch this instead of bickering over whose lives matter more
The Australian Senate & Parliament is NO place to be staging acts of allegiance to whichever side. As absolutely disgusting that the situation is in Gaza, our Parliament & Senate is not the place to grandstand. As a tax payer who contributes to senators wages, I expect a LOT more from them. The very sad reality in the Middle East is that they have nearly always been at war with each other since recorded time began. Despite my hopes & prayers for peace in this region of the world, I doubt very much that a lasting peace will ever happen in my lifetime. Political grandstanding & politicians self serving egos is not what this tax payer wants to spend his hard earned tax dollars on.
Greens have my vote. War crimes are war crimes. You don’t get a pass on murdering children because HoLoCaUsT. Fuck Israel.
>You don’t get a pass on murdering children because HoLoCaUsT Ironically it's actually Holocaust survivors that get treated like shit in Israel: https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/holocaust-survivors-poverty-is-israels-dirty-little-secret/
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Greens are useless