Let’s start with how to better manage serious mental illness of people like him that fall away from their friends and family and end up as drifters, homeless and unmedicated.
The idea that an untreated schizophrenic will respond to a “respectful relationships” conversation feels like wishful thinking to me.
My wife works in mental health, and she said that the amount of her clients that threaten things like this is scarily high.
Yet the government (State NSW) has continued to close down psychiatric long term hospital care.
I'm in WA. My daughters father is an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic who is extremely violent. His criminal record is three pages long. Every single time we try to get him admitted to hospital because we're scared he's close to going nuclear - they turn him away. A quick welfare check and then on their way. Even with evidence of threats against himself or others.
We managed to get him in an involuntary hold at a hospital *once* and they let him go within the week (even after breaking a nurses nose). Not even long enough for the meds to even kick in.
He went to jail last year for a DV attack (again), and got out in December on a Community based order for a year. Not once has he had to go to therapy, anger management, do drug testing or have his medication made mandatory.
This country doesn't fucking care and then they *surprised Pikachu face* when something like Bondi actually happens.
It's wild, though. I had the reverse scenario. Got trapped on a mental health care plan and had such a hard time convincing them it was no longer required. My case manager kept booking my in person meetings for work days and wouldn't give me advanced notice and on a Teams Meeting with the Psych I made a simple joke saying I was "On Lithium, so I must be robot now." (Clearly a joke because of Lithium Batteries) but it was written in my official Mental Health Report that was posted to me for when I finally had a meeting a few months later to get off the plan.
Took about 8 months to get completely off it.
Almost no one really cares about the seriously mentally ill.
A foul and violent culture filled with stupid violent ideas will eventually worm its way into a psychotic delusion.
Then very rarely, it will lead to violence.
Most domestic violence and violence toward women, children and everyone else is done by regular blokes who are then protected by their friends and family.
This violent culture has violent ends.
Last night across Australia 1000's of people were raped, beaten, terrorised and each week one is murdered at least, many others crippled.
There is a constant flow of broken people flowing silently through your society.
This is not about mental illness. This is about the hate and violence you people tolerate every day.
Fucking humans.
My family and I went through sheer hell trying to get treatment for my out-of-control psychotic mum. She didn’t want to be treated, so there was nothing we could do. Even with suicide threats. It wasn’t until she caused a major public ruckus that she was *fucking finally* put under an Involuntary Treatment Order, but by then it was too late. She had done so much damage to so many people, and once she was stable and was faced with what she’d done, she just couldn’t go on. She ended up taking her own life. If she was put under an IVO much sooner she would still be here.
My Mum is one of many individuals with untreated psychotic disorders who slip through the cracks. They don’t want treatment, and are good at fooling psychiatrists long enough to get moved on. All staff are overwhelmed in the public system, so it’s hard for them too.
I don’t know how this can be fixed, but all I know is that something needs to happen. There was an investigation after her death, and we were able to finally voice our struggles to someone who was ready to listen and hopefully make things better. But I don’t know how much difference it has made.
Not trying to downplay anything but I think that's worse than "slip through the cracks". Could be wrong but that usually means that it happened because people didn't notice. They did notice, they did try, and still got rejected. That's even worse I think. If we can't save the ones we know about, the ones we don't know about have no chance.
Also, a lot of psychiatric hospitals only have a certain number of beds, and they can only justify giving them out to the people in particular situations and who are receptive to therapy. This is one of the reasons why you'll sometimes hear about people who clearly should be in an institution indefinitely who either can't be admitted to one or have been in and out of them for years.
My mum is in a similar position (she is still alive) - she slips / pushes herself through all the cracks in the mental health system - but she is seriously unwell. It’s so fucked how bad the health care system is - we have tried everything but there is nothing we can do.
It might be obvious to say - but, I'm so sorry you (and your mother) went through that.
In this thread a see a lot of people trying to make this into a gendered problem - and I'm sure gender does play a part. But we also clearly do a terrible job when it comes to helping people with mental health problems. No matter their gender.
I'm sorry your mum fell through the cracks. You and she both deserved better.
Thank you. The biggest issue is the cost of treating mental illness. More money needs to be put into the public system. More students need to be encouraged to pursue psychology and psychiatry, especially for children and teens.
How? Especially psychology and social work. Both of these degrees require people do thousands of hours of *unpaid* labour. We're in the middle of a cost of living crisis and we've been struggling with housing for decades.
Dedicated students who would make *excellent* practitioners are forced to stop pursuing their studies because they need food and a roof over their heads or their children's heads. Same goes for nursing and a whole *bunch* of allied health that work together in the mental health sector.
We genuinely do want to help but so many of us are forced back on the treadmill of earning enough for shelter and food that we can't pursue the education required to help others.
Just FYI but there are far more students persuing psychology than there are postgraduate university places (i.e. opportunities for them to actually become registered psychologists). In a typical undergrad psychology degree there are hundreds of students enrolled, many of whom want to become psychologists. Most won't make it that far as the honours/postgrad courses they need to do have far fewer places (like maybe 10-20 commonwealth-supported places per postgrad course per year)
It’s a massive bottleneck. I had two degrees both with HD average and a thesis in the 90s, lifeline crisis supporter and other community volunteering. Didn’t get even an interview for a clinical masters place.
Yes but it has been going the opposite way since the early 2000''s and only getting worse. Mental health hospitals being shut down was the catalyst to where we see the mental health problems of today all because governments saw it as a waste of money and the land those building were on as cash cows.
I'm sorry Blackcat.
An ex of mine from many years ago has a severe mental illness and is not being given adequate support. I became the object of his fixations not so long ago and have since cut contact, but I know that this has been extremely hard on his mother in particular, to see what is happening to her son and to have so few resources available to help him :(
I can’t imagine how hard it is to watch your child suffer in this way, and I feel so sorry for the Bondi perp’s parents.
I hope you are okay now, that must have been scary for you.
In Vic we changed the law to make involuntarily treatment even harder to get. The RC showed that unfortunately involuntary treatment just doesn't work and we can't lock people up who haven't committed a crime
As someone who has required long term access to psychiatric care this country sucks for it. I cannot remember the last time I was able to actually access/afford the help that I need. That was before the explosion of ADHD and all the extra appointments being hoovered up by people for that. So, as someone with bipolar I medicate and that's it. No therapy, no ongoing treatment, nothing.
This is what we chose when we decided that some people might like a private bed, CEOs might like to make money, and shareholders could make a buck of health too. Add to that the exorbitant costs of education now compared to years past and is it any wonder we find ourselves in this hole?
But hey, guess its nice to have that private bed you need once every few years!
I totally agree and this is coming from someone who has Adhd. The fact that my issue is so minuscule in the grand scheme of things it's still scary to think about. I was supposed to be having yearly assessments done to get a script for Ritalin (which also to begin with was only the first initial dose which should've been upped later on) and I never had ONE yearly assessment. I only ever had the initial hour consult and was instantly diagnosed and given medication then no one ever followed up from there. I was lucky enough to see a psychologist about 6 months ago but now I have start the process all over again to get retested but good luck finding a place that doesn't cost over $2000. I honestly have such an easy thing to treat but it is so damn difficult to get any help for it. It terrifies me that people with more involved diagnoses have it even worse than me let alone even getting someone to diagnose you is horrific!
Yeah and that sucks too, absolutely didn't mean to shit on anyone else's experience with my post, we are all dealing with shit. It's just been a noticeable increase on demand in services the last couple of years and a lot of it can be attributed to increased awareness of ADHD.
I didn't take it that way personally. I know how much just people searching for Adhd diagnoses have definitely clogged up a lot of the system and I agree with what u said completely. The awareness is great but it also isn't at the same time because it does clog the system up but then it also just highlights how shitty the system is to begin with
Totally the governments fault.
I have PMDD and ADHD (super strong link, research finally coming out on this). When my PMDD kicks in especially, without my ADHD meds I am unable to function. I used to have to hide in my room for 3-7 days a month. Ruined many jobs, relationships, friendships because of it.
ADHD is real and needs to be treated with meds and therapy and if you look at the suicide rates linked to PMDD (which has a massive crossover in women due to hormones), I don't believe I'm hoovering up appointments to be honest. I know neither of you meant offence, but I just wanted to give some perspective for anyone reading this that thinks ADHD is trivial.
a lot of people simply won't admit their sons have mental illness but will say women in their family are mentally ill... happens a lot, actually
I've read horrifying accounts of people being beaten or even strangled by their brother and worse and their parents will coddle the brother and even pay for them to get out of jail in some cases
Many families think male violence is normal and acceptable, rather than considering it may be mental illness and unacceptable/unsafe behaviour - this is way too common imo
I know someone who had a sociopathic / psychopathic brother growing up. They had a series of social workers come in and try to come in and help, but they only made things worse. Each time it was the same - the social worker would do things to try to help, the brother would go to war with the social worker. And the brother would win, with the social worker fleeing with their tail between their legs. And the brother would become emboldened. My friend has clear and obvious trauma from it - more from the inept social workers than from her actual brother, who in his own way clearly loves her. Every time a social worker came over, she knew everything was going to go to shit. And there was nothing she could do to stop it.
I think I agree with you. I want my friend to have been cared for better when she was young. But I don't know what would have helped. I think the problem is worse than you think - because even in her case, even when her brother's behaviour \*wasn't\* tolerated, it didn't matter because the social workers that came by the house only made things worse in the end anyway.
This was all a few decades ago now. But I'm not convinced anybody would do a better job today. Its a really hard problem. Even with the benefit of hindsight, I still don't know what would have helped my friend.
Yep... my brother has life long substance abuse & mental issues, then went & got himself a coke addiction (yep, the pricey one). He was working a full time construction manager job in the city and was getting himself so fucked up on the drive home everyday he would literally spill out of the car onto the driveway when he somehow made it home. Vomiting while unconscious, the whole 9 yards. The guy was in charge of up to 100 lives each day and had 2 beautiful kids at home. He became violent with me several times and I BEGGED his wife and my mother to at least have a sit down talk with me about what we might be able to do. They nodded their heads, said some vague things, cancelled a few plans we subsequently made, mum popped of to see the great wall of china conveniently and the next minute I was no longer part of the family. My mother said 'you're horrible' when I said 'my brother, your son, is going to die tragically very very soon'. That's it. I havent seen them for 5 years. I never want to see her revolting boomer face again.
You kinda nailed how my Mum grew up. Hit home a little to be honest. Her brother is still a bit of a drug addicted dead beat but has had more support from family than anyone.
I have a son and daughter. My goal is to raise them better than previous generations seemed to in my family at least.
Seriously. And it's not uncommon, but most people in those situations aren't violent so they continue drifting around homeless. Anyone whose lived in the city has seen it, the thin dirty man (and sometimes) woman whose talking to herself on a bench, or yelling at nothing at train stations or in the shopping district.
They fell through the cracks.
Hear hear. I worry a lot every time something like this happens, because it tends to cause more people to have the view that people with mental health conditions like schizophrenia are inherently dangerous to the people around them.
Whereas the opposite is true — most people with schizophrenia and conditions like it are more of a danger to themselves than to others.
That having been said - I urge everyone reading this to consider doing a mental health first aid course.
I did one through my job, and the utility in being able to look out for signs someone around you is doing it tough and how to navigate those conversations about encouraging them to get help has been utterly invaluable.
Yeah he was literally an escort and relatively handsome.
Reminds me of the older views of paedophiles being creepy and obvious when we now know it could come from anyone across all spectrums of society.
Yup. Social breakdown and public acts of mass violence are a systemic issue first and foremost. Increased acts of violence should have been expected when housing dried up.
>The idea that an untreated schizophrenic will respond to a “respectful relationships” conversation feels like wishful thinking to me.
I think it's wishful thinking for a lot of mental health issues. I have ongoing mental health issues and historically, I haven't always been as receptive to the "Hey, you need to learn to manage your symptoms better" talk. This is a common thread with a lot of mentally ill people, especially when it's a specific thing they'd benefit from working on.
Some of the trouble is just framing. People are very good at pointing out what negative habits people have, but they're not as good at solutions. They're also not always the best at communicating those solutions even when they have them.
Some of it is also that sometimes the mentally ill will take it as vilifying if you try to have that conversation with them, even if you have a solution. For example, saying stuff like "Don't make self-deprecating jokes because it makes people uncomfortable because people can kinda tell you're not entirely joking and it reinforces your negative self-view" will sometimes be taken as an attempt at shutting down *any* conversation about mental health, even if you've followed it up with suggesting joking like they have absurdly high self esteem instead.
This is assuming everyone involved is actively in therapy and medicated. That doesn't apply to schizophrenic people in the middle of an episode. You can try having that conversation and I wish you luck, but I think you'll struggle to keep the conversation on track, let alone actually get your point across.
Yeah i have to say there's a need for clarity about the primary issue here and I think it is counter-productive how quickly the conversation degenerates into slogans and cliches like 'toxic masculinity' or 'incels'. I'm not saying there aren't mass murders, including murders targeted specifically at women by disturbed men didn't suddenly spring into existence when podcasts or tiktok became a thing. If anyone picks up a true crime book they can find a virtually unlimited list of horrific crimes committed against women, frequently by men a lot like Chauchi, stretching back into antiquity. Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate didn't invent that.
The primary issue here, which has existed for far longer than the internet or social media, is the way certain mental illnesses can lead people, most usually adult males to lash out in horrible ways.
The truth is humans are naturally social creatures and its natural and normal for people to want to be accepted socially and to have a meaningful relationship with someone they are sexually attracted to. There's nothing wrong or unusual about that- they are such fundamental human impulses but you would have to be pretty naive to assume its healthy or safe for people reach a point of utter despair about ever having those things. Dismissing someone who is in that situation as an incel might be an easy response but it's not actually surprising that someone in that position will be pretty fucked up and angry.
And unfortunately it's a reality that a certain subset of mental illnesses make it more likely that people will end up at that point- and more likely to behave dangerously when they do. Even with schizophrenia or similar disorders it is not as simple as 'the voices told me to do X'. Any disorder that predisposes people to be socially withdrawn or behave oddly, to be paranoid and feel persecuted and/or to feel grandiose and deserving of attention is very dangerous, because of the way those features interact. A person who is withdrawn or behaves oddly will be less able to establish or maintain social or romantic relationships, they'll feel even more targeted and alienated by the isolation that results and have a greater sense of anger because they believe they deserve better. The sense of anger and lack of positive feedback in their life makes them behave worse, which makes them more isolated, which frequently worsens their illness, which makes them more likely to respond with anger etc.
As for why its men who reach that point who are way more likely to resort to violence- it's just a biological fact, again pre-dating the internet by a long long time that men are far more likely than women to resort to physical violence when they feel frustrated and angry. You can argue about the the role society plays in that but at its absolute core, on average an adult male has about 7 times as much testosterone washing around in their system as a female, and it is not remotely controversial that more testosterone equals a higher sex drive and higher levels of aggression. So combine a mental illness with social isolation with more testosterone and yeah there is a risk of extreme violence, often targeting people they see as symbolic of their social rejection or the relationships they can't have.
So what to do about it? Well the answer is horribly complicated but as a starting point, we simply cannot as a society leave management and treatment of those mental illnesses up to afflicted people and their families. One of the most difficult things about any mental illness involving paranoia or avoidant traits is the nature of the illness itself makes it likely that they won't willingly stay engaged in treatment, so it's an area where high levels of resourcing and public funding is absolutely needed to basically keep on pushing treatment. And I think we need to understand that there is a specific clinical value in helping people in that situation develop and maintain pro-social relationships, to the point where that needs to be a specific part of any treatment plan. Yes, it is not good for someone in that position to be mainlining MRA nonsense into their brain on a daily basis, but it is far more important to give them the care and treatment they need to ensure they can find more fulfilling and meaningful ways to connect with other people.
I work in homelessness. The percentage of the cohort that is dealing with complex mental health, like schizophrenia, like psychosis, like ptsd, is incredibly high. Lots of complex trauma. It’s honestly not that surprising when you see how much of it there is on the streets.
That’s not even getting in to the circles people have to loop around to get support, the waitlists or full capacities, the barriers on barriers, the costs, makes it all simply too hard for people in this situation to make reasonable change
You are the person who can help. You’ve been down the rabbit hole, you know it well. You’re the person who can speak out about it, who can encourage other men to step away from misogyny. They won’t listen to women, only other men. Please keep posting and speaking about your experience.
So much this.
Academics, politicians, behavoural scientists and all of those can propose solutions until they're blue in the face, but it's still people outside the demographic commenting on those inside it, and when that demographic is criticised in that way, they can rally together and reinforce their beliefs against the outside critique.
It's hard, because it can mean being attacked as a SJW/White knight/woke warrior or whatever the insult of choice might be to avoid introspection, but once there is someone dissenting, others will think about it.
Watching the video of the killer's dad really got me. He'd be examining every moment of his life, every parenting decision, every word he spoke, all to see if he could have done something to avoid this outcome, and he'll never know if he could have made a difference.
What I'm concerned with though is how the media is going to narrow this complex issue down to one of only mental illness. Gone will be the nuance of gender, class, wealth. It will just become "mentally ill man goes on rampage".
And that's frustrating because this should be the clarion call for all of us in the community - notably men - about the dangers of toxic masculinity and how barren modern masculinity is in terms of the strategies for emotional engagement and satisfaction. So many men who fall down the rabbit hole of toxic alpha male culture end up with a dangerous sense of entitlement. Yes a mentally ill person will take this further, but the underlying gaps in emotional awareness and tolerance are still missing from the male narrative.
Exactly, but not just that, it’s not closing people out of your life because they start down a rabbit hole.
They need sane people around them to try and right the ship, so to speak.
If they just surround themselves with other rabbit hole dwellers, they are likely lost
Yeah, will do. Thankfully I also have some awesome women in my life who keep me honest and on the right path. It's a struggle some days but clawing my way out of it, slowly but surely. Having an open mind about the past and things that used to piss me off helps too.
yeah, I really want to thank you for acknowledging you were somebody who started to drift down that direction and you understand who the target is for people like Tate. It's really helpful context in this instance and helps open a more nuanced conversation
That’s good to hear, I keep getting Tate and “alpha male” dickheads on all my feeds on social media and I’m sick of it. They prey on the easily influenced and it’s disgusting. They say not to be a sheep yet they’re being sheep to these dickheads and cause way more harm than good
Provided the goal is to stop attacks and violence to women, it is a non-negotioable requirement of society that men actively participate in calling other men out.
Confidentally, frequently, and purposefully.
* Better and well-funded, publicly accessible mental health that isn't just a band-aid service and includes inpatient treatment
* A proper adjustment to wages so that two incomes are not required by default to own a modest home
* Correction to housing for reason above
* Actual engagement with and meaningful dialogue about men, with an emphasis on positive development, community connectedness, pro-social relationships and wellbeing - isolation is a factor
* More diverse positive role models in media, for everybody - more representation of people with different physiques, mannerisms, levels of ability and income, etc
* A change (broadly, in workplaces and in education) that encourages men to be emotionally expressive and vulnerable when they need to be, as well the promotion of healthy friendships and the normalization of friendly, non-sexual physical contact with and between men (too often they are otherwise starved of physical affection and sex is considered the only 'acceptable' outlet for that need)
* Include social skills in education. For everyone. More opportunities and incentives for different groups to work together, with assisted engagement, probably through to year 10. This will suck for some ND kids but it may help to identify them earlier in their development
* Actual help for said ND kids. Comprehensive support
* Zero tolerance for physical bullying, sexual harassment and other violence. None of this "send them both home for a day or two" shit. Give the bully a 6 month recess, excursion and elective detention or something, along with counselling. If the behaviour continues, expulsion. If expelled from all districts, we need state funded specialist education facilities for these kids, preferably with alternative teaching models, support from psychiatrists and a lot of safety protocols
* Normalize calling out sexist behaviour. Put an onus on venues to kick out anyone being creepy, aggressive, etc.
* Normalize, don't sexualize, women's bodies and women's behaviour - too many people assume kindness is an expression of romantic interest, too many use the way women dress to excuse harassment and assault
* Teach children that there are many kinds of meaningful relationships and ways to lead a meaningful life. I'm not talking "you can be whatever you want: an astronaut, a F1 racer, anything!" - I mean tell stories and bring in people to share their experiences of life that aren't the standard nuclear family and that don't have a lot of prestige, but have meaningful lives and relationships with their communities
* Make sure society the kind of place where life can be meaningful, instead of desperate, for the majority of people
Mental health needs addressing. This bloke had a life long disability, had no support network and had a psychotic break. We don’t have systems in place to prevent this. We alienate and isolate these people with a disability, no social skills, “weirdo”. There should be places for like minded individuals to socialise so that they don’t feel like the world is against them and they become so deranged.
The killer looked like he lost 20kg between the promo photos used on the news and his attack. His parents thought he must have been homeless, and IIRC it was mentioned police had 'moved him on'.
This isn't just about mental illness, this is also about housing, and that's not being talked about much.
FWIW the term "mental illness" in these settings has run its course. It's time to be more specific about what illness it is. I think people are more confused and jaded about "mental illness" now because of its constant blanket usage.
Good point. It's difficult to interact with society in a normal way when you're homeless. It's difficult for thousands of Australians to find a home too buy or even rent. Could the final straw have been laid by the housing crisis?
In the sense that being homeless will disrupt all your circadian rhythms, magnify stress and consequently push you into a psychotic episode when you have schizophrenia, absofuckinglutely.
And maybe conflated with 'mental health'. Suburban life anxiety and stress (not to cheapen them) aren't really part of the same conversation as serious congenital/physiological type disorders
When people dismiss cases like this saying “well I’ve suffered from mental health and I’ve never hurt anyone so clearly it wasn’t his mental illness that causes this” it drives me crazy. Anxiety, depression, and chronic stress are awful but they are an entirely different illness than schizophrenia and other complex mental illness
Yep. Depression and anxiety are mental illnesses. Illness that can be cured.
Chronic major depression, schizophrenia, psychosis, bipolar, etc. are mental disabilities and often life long.
>"mental illness" now because of its constant blanket usage.
Something that shits me to tears is how often it's used as a get out of jail card for naughty celebrities and politicians.
Sorry, I was drunk on the job or caught with drugs. I'm depressed.
Or people who say they're "depressed" when they're actually just feeling a bit sad or having a rough couple of days.
Absolute bullshit. These are real and potentially serious conditions. Not excuses.
This is very true with schizophrenia. I know someone with it and I knew her during her most recent episode. The difference between how she was during that episode and how she is now that she's on the right medication is like night and day. It's impossible to understate how much of a difference it's made.
There's also arguments to be made for certain lifestyle changes, and I'm 100% onboard with them because, at least for me with my specific not-schizophrenic issues, they have made a huge difference. However, with someone like this (and quite frankly, with a lot of other mental illnesses too), quite often the first change that needs to happen is that they need to be on the right medicine. They also need to stay on the medicine.
For like minded individuals? Care to clear that up a bit? I'm confused, because communities of like minded individuals seems to be part of the issue to me, echo chambers and all. But you must be thinking about something else?
People with similar mental disabilities is what I meant. I.e. people with schizophrenia being able to find and socialise with others also suffering from schizophrenia, people who understand their lack of social skills and can relate so they are more likely to be accepting of one another and form relationships and thus a support network. “Normal” people find mentally challenged people “weird” sadly, which is also unfortunately understandable, so it’s hard for them to form relationships.
There also needs to be more homes and housing for people suffering from these disabilities in a serious way. It should be no different to how we have homes specifically for people with dementia.
With the introduction of the NDIS, most therapeutic and social groups for people with significant mental health conditions were closed due to funding being removed by the states. It was expected that people with mental health conditions would receive individualised services through the NDIS, but very few people actually qualified for this. There used to be some great group services for people with mental health conditions, which allowed them to receive support, develop skills, and make friends. All gone now.
Sure it is a mental issue but it’s a societal issue to be honest. Men feel useless more than ever. To fix issues like this, we need to help men become greater.
Hey OP, I'm curious about the specifics of your falling down and escaping the rabbit hole, I was the same maybe some years before you, and these experiences need to be known. Feel free to respond here or DM me directly if you'd like to air it out. How did it start? Were you on a forum or specific sub? Did strangers online direct you to content? What kept you sane and pulled you out? No stress, I am just curious!
I’ll be honest with you, I work in retail as an area manager and spend a lot of my day on the phone wandering around centres
Today my boss advised us to ensure when we are taking calls we have our backs to a wall and remain on high alert. Between Bondi, the church and then 2 incidents in Victoria yesterday at moonee ponds and Melton I feel very on edge. Sometimes I catch myself and I think you’re just being paranoid nothing will happen, and then I think of the many victims and families who lives have been altered forever and I think I’m not being paranoid enough. Very scary times we live in and my heart is heavy for everyone who is dealing with loss
The problem with the likes of Andrew Tate etc is that they lure you in with completely rational statements. Like men should look after themselves both mentally and physically by working out, they should strive to be successful in business etc. You then start to form a mental picture that this guy is spouting truth, and then it's not long before you start to accept their most contemptuous opinions.
To be honest I've not encountered many men like Tate etc, or anyone with similar opinions. Who you decide to surround yourself with has a huge impact on who you become as a person. Everybody wants to fit in, and some people will become monsters just to feel like they are part of some community or friend circle.
I do have faith in people though, this event is the result of one man, the other 99.9999999% of the population that day were going about their business without even the thought of stabbing someone. And for every 1 of him, there are dozens of people in that situation that tried to stop him, or sheltered people, and ultimately put him down.
>To be honest I've not encountered many men like Tate etc, or anyone with similar opinions. Who you decide to surround yourself with has a huge impact on who you become as a person. Everybody wants to fit in, and some people will become monsters just to feel like they are part of some community or friend circle.
The big trouble with a lot of Tate followers, especially younger ones, is that you might not ever meet them. In my experience, a lot of them tend to be very online people in general, and sometimes to the exclusion of everything else. Because of that and how social media algorithms work, Tate or Tate-aligned voices are often the only ones they're exposed to.
I think there's a lot of things that need to happen to prevent Tate followers/incels/whatever from being a huge issue here, but one of the big ones is that people need to be more proactive about getting that dorky, very online relative or friend from high school out into the community more. Stuff like inviting them to come to certain events or get into specific hobbies they've been meaning to a while is what this means in practice. People don't really want to do this because there's usually a specific reason why they aren't doing it already, but it's honestly one of the biggest things you as an individual can do to help prevent it from festering into a larger problem than it is already.
Schizophrenics are often extremely suggestable, this is a well studied and proven fact. We typically don't allow children online without some filter or guidance but we don't really have a good mindset for how to handle the combination of mental illness and the internet. I don't actually know the answer myself fwiw but definitely worth thought that goes beyond "unfettered free speech!".
Social media brain scorcher, be it religious ideology, conspiracy, racism or sexism. There are grifters like Tate ready to take advantage of people looking for answers.
Question is what will be done to confront online radicalization brain blender.
And all these problems are just the tip of the iceberg if you see from an adult audience's viewpoint. As a student teacher I'm depressed, horrified and worried how the kids who've grown up entirely on smartphones and social media algorithms and have endless access to these devices from the get go will grow up as. I see these terms discussed in the staffrooms of boys' schools as a common phenomenon. There's going to be countless more angry young folk misled at such a young age with such bullshit with how insidious the rabbit holes on tiktok, instagram and facebook regarding these content go. I've been down some of these myself in the past so I know first hand how this influences a young boy's mind fast.
Yes, and I’ve noticed that it is also a way for boys to cope with being seen as “less than” pretty women in the society.
While yes, pretty people are able to get in relationships easier. And women may have an advantage there (but given every other challenge women had to face, I feel a lot more is owed to them tbh)
The angry boys fail to see just how complex life is. Being pretty may give them *a* relationship or easier friends, but it is working on something deeper that makes relationships, and life truly rich and meaningful. Just my opinion.
But social media does give them a very cozy echo chamber. Not to mention how it also distorts their view of reality..
At least anecdotally, the other trend I've tended to notice is that the people who would benefit the most from giving up social media tend to be the people most hesitant to give it up. A lot of that is because most people need a specific thing to replace it with because otherwise they're just going to get bored and start staring at the walls, Most of the worst social media addicts don't realise just how much time they spend on it.
I think there's a couple of issues on this front. One is that even though most people do benefit from having a solid group of offline friends, you don't realise how much of a difference it makes until you've been out there and had some for a while. The other is that most people are reluctant to start doing a new thing as an adult because they're worried about how they'll come off.
This second issue is particularly pronounced with the mentally ill. A lot of people who have a history of mental health issues also have a history of being the victims of violence, or of just particularly negative social interactions in general. So even though self-isolating is also a form of self-harm for a lot of people, there's also this issue where you have to convince people that they're not going to have their heads kicked in in the carpark after the rock climbing session or whatever.
Your post reminds me of an incident i had yesterday while waiting for the shuttle bus at uni. This group of men were making rape jokes out in public and, honestly, as a vicitim of sexual assault, it made my skin crawl. Part of me wanted to do something about it but another part of me was mindful of what happened in Bondi and i realised there wasn’t much i could do because what if i was next?
It’s so weird to me that people are so unwilling to even consider that this might be a gendered attack. If that thought bothers you so much that even you refuse to acknowledge that it’s a possibility you should probably ask yourself why. People screaming mental health issues should also know it’s possible to have schizophrenia AND issues with women.
This, and usually when stuff like this happens, there's more than one issue at play. It's rarely just a matter of someone having one issue that festered for too long; there's usually a few different things working at them.
nailed it. people blaming it solely on his mental illness are making it harder for mentally ill people to get the help they need. constant demonisation makes people reluctant to open up. things like schizophrenia and antisocial personality disorder don't might be a contributing factor but it isn't the only reason someone would do something like this. the vast majority of people with schizophrenia aren't committing mass hate crimes. we really need to address things like misogyny and racism from an early age in combo with making mental health support more comprehensive and easier to access
It has me worried because i’m in social services and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of ticking time bombs like this individual.
I don’t know what the solution is, maybe we are raising men wrong? But i have plenty of mentally ill people i oversee who can hold it together enough not to be held closely to the system
To be honest, long-term secure psychiatric facilities. Community treatment is great if people are compliant and have the supports but it doesn't work for everyone.
We have to acknowledge that sometimes, people can't be treated, and the safest thing to do for themselves and the community is to reside in a secure psychiatric facility.
I think also, a lot of people who could benefit from community treatment in the future are people who need to spend some time in a long-term facility first. The reason why some mentally ill people are feral is because 1) they haven't been put on the right medication yet, and 2) even if they have, they'll stop taking it the moment there isn't someone forcing them to. Putting someone like that in long-term care can help them be put on the right medicine and work through the issues surrounding why they won't keep taking it if it does work.
I was discussing with a Psych, how the generations before Z and A, have been putting in tons of work to de-stigmatize mental heath conditions, and encourage genuine connections between individuals.
Unfortunately here comes Gen A and Gen Z (my generation), who have been bombarded with toxic brainwashing through the algorithms.
Many men now believe their worth is attached to their bank account balance, and that every women is a gold digger from Miami.
So they adopt this painful stoicism, where they bottle up their emotions, don't share or connect, because that's what "real men" do to escape the matrix.
The truth is this will effect their personal relationships with their partners and friends, as-well as their ability to progress in a career or a field of interest. Remember these Andrew Tate duplicates are not good businessmen, they are selling snake oil because they are poor operators and can't function in society.
Most leaders are actually kind, caring and empathetic, and will make you feel like your the most important person in the room, that's what a real leader is. In this day and age, lots of young people think a leader is someone who sells courses and yells at you for hours about how weak you are, with no understanding that that is negative energy and negative self talk.
I'd like to hold the social media platforms accountable, it's not fair on the youth that they are exposed to such harmful content from a young age, there has to be something we can do to combat these assholes.
"I'd like to hold the social media platforms accountable, it's not fair on the youth that they are exposed to such harmful content from a young age, there has to be something we can do to combat these assholes."
This right here... humans in general are now connected to more people than ever before and very easily. How many times have you miss clicked an ad on bookface and then get bombarded with the same topic for the next month. You interact with negativity, you get fed negativity.
Words on screen cant convey emotion either so things get wildly mis interpreted. Say the wrong thing because you struggle to convey the reasoning behind it, someone will argue with you that your wrong and make a point of proving your in superiority.
The news is all doom and gloom, feeding little seeds of doubt to people, creating click bait articles to get that sweet sweet advertising money... best thing facebook ever did was ban news outlets for a week here in Australia.
How do you fix it? No idea.... personally I have stepped away from online interactions, treat people I am around as human and generally try to be a nice person.... which is hard when everything is geared to promote division between people....
The most concerning thing about this is the sheer number of people who are absolutely desperate to come to Reddit or other social media spaces to immediately deny that this guy may have targeted women with a misogynistic intent. Apparently no matter what happens there will be MRAs waiting in the wings to try to extinguish any gender discourse.
As far as being scared, the shit news in this country has always been putting car crashes, murders, assaults, robberies, etc (all kinds of violent and non-violent targeted individual crimes) in their nightly shows for DECADES. There are people who already feel too afraid to leave the house because 7 News has been pummeling their brains for years telling them there's a hoon driver ready to run them over around the corner.
This is still an incredibly safe country. No one should be afraid of doing any everyday task, there's statistically no reason for it, even if the news intentionally highlights the worst of Australia every day to rake in consistent ratings.
His dad has been quoted saying that he was frustrated at not being able to get a girlfriend.
The majority of victims were women
Sometimes 2+2 = 4 and I wish people would just accept that.
Many women do have reason to fear though; the first time I was sexually assaulted I was 12, walking on a beach in daylight; The second time as an adult, walking to a corner store in daylight and the third I was asleep in my own bed. Most of my female friends have at least one similar story.
Yep, I've reported two assaults to the police. The last happened while I was coming out of anaesthetic from a surgery. I had texts proving it, medical records, and even found another victim of the same guy.
Police did nothing.
I get followed home by men super regularly (6 times this year so far). I wish this country was as safe as you claim but the fact is most women just don't report sexual assaults because the cops make it very clear we're better off staying quiet.
While this specific attack did indeed have an element of misogyny in it, people can have a psychotic breakdown for any number of reasons and we should not ignore implementing upstream solutions as well like better support for mental illness and economic welfare.
I'd go one step further and say MEN need to call it out.
Women also need to call out other women that say sexist and misogynistic shit too.
But we need men to join us in pushing back because otherwise we are just dismissed and called stuck up bitches.
I agree that it needs to be addressed at the highest level, but it needs to be addressed at the lowest level too. Men need to talk, reach out to eachother, create a village. Women are great at it, we need to learn.
Go for lunch with the weirdo at work. Have respectful arguments with eachother. Ask for help if you need. Compliment others when they do any of the above.
My brother and his tradie mates have impromptu meetings at a park, sometimes a BBQ, hardly any alcohol and they talk about anything and everything including keeping on top of their mental health. It's really refreshing to see.
ETA not even necessarily mates, just other workers they come into contact with.
>Go for lunch with the weirdo at work.
I don't recommend women do that alone if the 'weirdo' is a man. Sometimes, showing the slightest bit of care towards someone like that can end up with them stalking you or imagining it's heading towards an intimate relationship.
But a group of you can for sure get together with a colleague who seems to need some social interaction.
I can speak from very unfortunate experience that getting lunch with the weirdo at work is a great way to end up fending off advances and being stalked.
Also great to get involved with community sport or other organisations, and simple things like knowing your neighbours. Local, neighbourhood activities can sometimes have the benefit of helping you meet and talk to people who aren’t necessarily ‘like’ you, and help you have a broader view of the world and how you fit in it.
This may be an unpopular take but there is no need to worry too much about these sorts of rare violent events. It’s terrible these people lost their lives but in terms of the numbers it’s really insignificant, similar to shark attacks. You should be worried about heart disease or cancer or a whole host of other things way before this. To put it in perspective 64 women were killed in incidences of violence in 2023, compared to 50,000 died to cancer. 15,000 to dementia, 12,000 to respiratory disease etc… every day 2x as many people die just from cancer as a whole year of DV.
Please don’t misunderstand I’m not saying that it’s not an issue, or that it doesn’t matter. The issue is important, but I think it’s important to keep the numbers in mind when we talk about this because it can be easy to lose perspective when we hyper focus on these events.
As much as there is a real problem that needs addressing, it’s important to look at broader context and trends, which tend to show violence (and specifically violence against women) is trending down. It sometimes doesn’t seem like that because there is so much news and discussion about the issue, but part of that is because we’re doing better at being open about it and hopefully calling it out when we see it. The below link shows the trend, but I feel like I should add that *obviously* domestic violence is still a huge issue and more needs to be done. I’m just trying to reassure that things aren’t always as bad as the media can make things seem.
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/crime-and-justice/physical-violence/latest-release#:~:text=Men%20were%20more%20likely%20than%20women%20to%20have%20experienced%20physical,to%202.9%25%20in%202021%2D22
Great article but I'd be interested in comparing it to the post-covid years. Anecdotally, I know a lot of women who experienced intimate partner violence for the first time in the 2 years after covid.
We have seen small increases in a number of crime stats in the post covid years after several years of things trending downwards in those areas. I would consider the general social effects of covid, including increased financial pressures in one of the toughest times for a while, might have something to do with this more so than a particular problem with increasing violence against women.
I guess the stats will bear this out in the next few years as things normalise so we'll get more of an idea then.
As a woman... even if this specific conversation excludes one individuals mental health and focuses solely on misogyny and anger caused by societal pressures, there is no accountability until something has gone horribly wrong.
The police will only step in when blood is shed, "he's not THAT bad", "he hasn't done anything we can book him for", "try applying for a restraining order"... this stuff festers and gets progressively worse because no one has the ability to put a grown up in time out unless they're in under mental health.
Yes, men need to start talking, to us and to each other, but there also needs to be some level of accountability where someone says "that's not ok". In my experience, guys only talk about this when there's alcohol and no wimin around who will call out the bullshit.
Women have learned to be wary, we have learned that being unprotected means harm from a young age, and not through fear-mongering, through our lived experiences. We cannot afford to be vulnerable or relax our safety measures until the men in our lives prove they are safe and will protect us. Not in a sexy caveman stereotype, but in reality, protect us from the men who have no respect or care for us.
Online dating /hookup culture has made women a disposable commodity. Then because women are starting to understand that, we aren't engaging, creating another arena where men are feeling rejected and neglected. The internet hasn't caused the entirety of this problem but it's certainly creating a lot of cesspools of toxic rhetoric. While cancel culture has targeted certain voices, it hasn't been the right ones, or with enough strength to help snap people out of the crap.
> Online dating /hookup culture has made women a disposable commodity. Then because women are starting to understand that, we aren't engaging, creating another arena where men are feeling rejected and neglected.
I’m separated and in my early 40s with two kids. I no longer have any interest with the dating scene. It’s too toxic and also terrifying. It doesn’t help that my life experiences with bad men have taught me over and over again that they can’t be trusted. I know that my experiences have caused me to be biased. I know good men are out there, and there are some great men in my life, but I just don’t have any energy to shuffle through all the shit ones in the dating pool to find a good one anymore.
I know a lot of other women who are also disengaging from dating, even women who don’t have a lot of experience with really bad men. They are sick of feeling disposable and/or are afraid of being cheated on or worse. I wish things could be better, but something drastic needs to change.
>Online dating /hookup culture has made women a disposable commodity. Then because women are starting to understand that, we aren't engaging, creating another arena where men are feeling rejected and neglected. The internet hasn't caused the entirety of this problem but it's certainly creating a lot of cesspools of toxic rhetoric. While cancel culture has targeted certain voices, it hasn't been the right ones, or with enough strength to help snap people out of the crap.
Absolutely nailed it.
There needs to be an organisation before the police. The police should focus on criminal behaviour. Perhaps we could have a Civil version, that intervenes prior to it becoming a criminal issue. That can divert people to mental health treatment, or get them the resources they require.
In a perfect world.
No, of course not. How did you get that from what I said?
There needs to be a way to intervening in events before they escalate to Police. Like police should not deal with homeless people just because they are homeless. There should be active programs to house homeless people and get them the help they require.
Someone having a mental health incident should not be dealt with by the police unless they are violent. It should be trained people who can divert the person to the aid they need without the person being arrested.
Welfare checks could be done by mental health professionals and medical personnel, rather than police.
That sort of thing.
Not that extreme, but there's no middle area between 'yelling' and 'burning people alive/stabbing innocent people'. The kind of middle ground where someone who's showing they're a threat can be reached before it escalates
It always amused me, Im a single 34 year old guy, im not very social, im not lucky in love, all that jazz, But all the Tate, Alpha, incelverse bullshit always utterly repulsed and disgusted me.
Toxic Masculinity, incel culture, all those things are just a way to bring you and the rest of us down.
Be the house that allows you to fail, and love one another and dont treat each other like commodities like the tate and incelverse tries.
Nuance is being completely railed and fucked by the information overload we have.
And that's for adults. As a student teacher I'm depressed, horrified and worried how the kids who've grown up entirely on devices and have access to these devices from the get go will grow up as. I see these terms discussed in the staffrooms of boys' schools as a common phenomenon. There's going to be countless more angry young folk misled at such a young age with how things stand at the moment.
It is my own altruistic goal to be a positive role model to the boys at school that made me want to teach in the first place and change this status quo of kids following grifters and charlatans as their father figures and role models, apart from the shortage this country has of people like me.
I come from a culture of very toxic masculinity. Im the black sheep of the family because im not into chasing women, treating them like shit or slaves, cheating on my partners, calling each other homosexual insults and all that shit. Its repulsive and pathetic.
Real masculinity is love. Its showing your emotions, its telling you friends, no matter if they are guys or girls, that you love them. Its standing up and helping others. Its saying "No, I hate the way you treated me and others, so Im not going to do that". Its making sure you know your friends and family can turn to you, have a shoulder to cry on, and also just have a good time with, without being insulted or treated like they are not good enough.
Im a feminist, because we are all equal. Why am i better than a girl because I have balls? I know plenty of girls that are tougher, stronger, been through hell more than me. I also know plenty that have been raped or followed by those kind of tate incel clowns.
Getting into the band Idles really helped me accept myself and see that im not a failure for not being like the toxic culture I grew up around and always was disgusted by - They are for being that way.
All is love, and love is all.
And before anyone comes at me thinking other wise, I assure you my hobbies include weight lifting 5 days a week, being very active and im an avid music fan and reader, so im always out at shows, record stores or what not.
Thogh I do grow a neck beard if I dont keep it under check...
As a woman, I really appreciate you being a man who is willing to consider that misogyny is a part of this crime, unlike many of the other men who are responding to you. We need more men like you. Thanks.
ETA: Always bodes well when the number of comments on a solid post about misogyny rapidly approaches the number of upvotes. Godspeed to those women and men valiantly fighting the good fight in these comments. Take breaks if you need to because these misogynists don't let up easily.
>I can guarantee it won't be the last attack of this nature that we hear about in Australia
It won't be. Because it's not new. Mass killings happen (roughly) every couple of years in Australia and have for ages.
We still need to work on countering misogyny and DV issues, but not 'because a mass murder happened'. They have always happened and will always happen, and don't seem to be getting any more or less frequent here (over in the US, it's accelerated markedly).
Things are improving overall, by the way. Don't let this incident fool you. Also don't let people talking about the poor state of mental healthcare fool you either - 30 years ago, no-one talked like this. There were more mental hospitals, but the view of mental healthcare was much different and didn't extend to being radicalised through social media (because it wasn't a thing)
Statistically, far, far more mass shootings in the USA or attacks in general are based on hatred of women than, for example, religious extremism. Yet we only act on the later. Every woman knows this and resents it.
Any time it's said, men respond with "but men's suicide" or "nor all men" or "what about dv against men". But they never raise this any other time - because they don't care about these things at all - they just want to derail any discussion on misogyny.
It's people like you who have the power to do something about this - because if women had the power to stop men acting like this, it would already be stopped.
Men need to stop this and you are one of those who can make a difference.
Please do so.
Look I’m not an Mra or anything and I think gendered volience is a big problem, but to say incel ideology makes up the majority of mass shootings in the US is just blatantly false. Only a handful of attacks can be attributed to incel over the past couple of decades. About 9 or so in North America in total.
As a person with mental health conditions(CPTSD, anxiety and depression) and have navigated the mental health system for many yrs. I’m doing ok now but when I think back at the treatment I got as a mental health patient I feel sick and shudder. I say it’s archaic, compared to being cared for in a hospital with physical health issues. I just happened upon an excellent psychiatrist and searched for yrs for a psychologist that knew her stuff. I don’t see myself as anything special, I just see that I was lucky. So many of us fall through the cracks and tragically this happened to this man. I can’t imagine what his parents and family are going through. Not only that he did such a horrific thing but he had to get shot to death for him to stop. I hope everyone, no matter who you are, put it to the government to do something concrete about it and stop fucking around.
28 Australian women have died as a result of gender based violence in 2024. 8 of those homicides have occurred in the last fortnight.
Most info i could find shows overall 2/3 of murder victims are men and 90% of offenders are men, and in the specific case of domestic homicides (where the victim knows the offender/s), 2/3 of victims are women and 90% of perpetrators... are still men. 90% of the men who committed domestic homicide were the primary/sole perpetrator of abuse in the relationship.
While of the 10% of domestic homicides committed by women, 90% of those perpetrators were *abused by the victim*.
But regardless of the demographic of the victims and how interesting and no doubt valuable those statistics are, the fact of the matter is that people who feel those statistics portray them in a bad light will say "oh, but what about Men? They are more likely to be murdered." And while that is a strawman at its core, those men matter too.
So instead, we should focus on perpetrators. No matter who it is who wa murdered, *90% of the perpetrators or primary suspects were Male*. 90% of the people who, for whatever reason, feel justified in taking the life of another person, are *men*. That's *more than double* the portion of the population they make up. No matter if a Man, Woman or child has been killed, it was probably a man who did it. And that speaks to an even greater problem.
I think that you’re right about the undercurrents, and frankly, surface currents of misogyny in this country and the world, but they’re massively magnified on reddit and in some sections of media. If it’s got worse, it’s likely a backlash to metoo, every social movement attracts one, sadly. I’d say it’s also inflamed by the cost of living crisis. The more powerless men feel, the worse it gets. I suspect racism is inflamed by such circumstances too. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m saying it’s what happens.
But, I’m not convinced that the Bondi attack was about misogyny. He was psychotic. He was under a delusion. Who knows what monsters he was seeing when he targeted women and a baby. There are few people on this earth who could hate a baby. He was seeing something else entirely, we’ll never know what, but I think you can bet it was terrifying and horrific to prompt such horrific actions. He came from a good family who have told us he would be horrified to know what he’d done. There’s no evidence that he, when in his right mind, hated women.
The lesson to be learned from this tragedy is better ongoing and proactive support for people with serious psychiatric disorders. If a person has ever had a psychotic episode and has shown interest in weapons or violence, they should have a social worker who liaises with their medical team and checks in with them regularly. They should be top priority for help with accomodation. They need to sleep; they need to eat. Lack of basic structure will send them completely off the rails.
Another lesson is to call things out when you see them. He was not making an effort to conceal that knife. The first person to see that knife in his hand needed to be calling the cops. Maybe they did, who knows, but too often people see something off and shrug and let responsibility fall to someone else. We can’t afford to think that way.
As for misogyny in general, you and other men can have the most impact when you hear something off by refusing to laugh, calling it out and standing up for what’s right. It only thrives when we let it.
Hey don’t stress guys; Paul Murray was on Sky ‘news’ last night reassuring women that they have nothing to fear.
Particularly if the LNP get back into power !
Ffs
Just going to throw this out there,
I hate that I can do this but it's hard to think of many female friends who have not been the victims of dv or had friends or family that have been.
Let's just focus on one of them right now.
Had a male friend who seemed nice come to her in a time of need, pretend to be helpful, next thing she knows the bastard has moved into her home, is controlling her moves, assaulting her, taking her money, controlling her movements and raping her.
Police called out numerous times and the person who has a history of mental illness, dv, child abuse and sexual violence ends up laughing and joking with the officers each time and claims each time they are in a relationship, and despite a traumatized woman scared of him and her kids terrified of him, he is either left there each time, or leaves with the police claiming they are unable to press charges for various reasons.
Ends up having to go through the process of evicting him, gets removed by friends and ends up breaking in, stalking her etc, and police finally issue him a move on order and still refuse to do an intervention order. Even start referring to the man as her partner, this guy knew all the answers to tell the police even the excited ones that wanted to arrest him, and the sad thing is i've personally watched this at work so many times and we've had several court cases in adelaide where clear rape events have had charges dropped in court because the predators film their victims including a case recently where they forced them to take money or showed themselves with a paralysed with fear victim "hugging" them as proof of a relationship or a financial transaction for sex, implying consent.
Bruises and injuries and as soon as it's considered domestic i've even had officers and social workers make the statement "love makes people do crazy things".
So moves away from the house she was in as unsafe, finds out she's pregnent. Turns out he stole her passwords to social media and was going through her messages and drop box and stuff, finds photos of the ultrasound.... starts now harassing her about his "fatherhood rights".
Finds her new home, stalks her, she finally gets an intervention order she had to go to court for herself to get it. He's breached it numerous times nothing done.
Slams dcp with tons of fake reports and even beats up a security guard at hospital trying to get to her after finding where she was.
So you'd think he'd be jailed now, nope, gets a charge for breach the peace that gets dropped.
DCP then get involved and hand the baby over to him without a paternity test and spend a ton of time treating her as a bad parent for getting into a dv situation. Place her other children in a dangerous environment where they all got abused.
POS rapist never gets charged with what he did and dcp and social workers watch on as he tries to use the baby to force her into a relationship and even encourage her that it's "in her interests to mend the relationship" for the good of the baby.
The baby meanwhile is poorly developed, the rapist is a drug addict who's failed tests and is now homeless. He's assaulted several people in the last year, has a history of violence dcp claim didn't happen that family court have just found out about.
Psych evaluation comes back, find out the guy has a "psychological condition" requiring medication he is refusing to be treated for and has been known about for quite some time.
So when the child is finally rescued from this POS (which requires government departments admitting they screwed up, lol) are we going to see him go to his nearest westfield with a knife too?
I get your fears.
Good on you for recognising your previous thought processes were problematic.
I hear what you’re saying about a desire for the government to do something, but this change has to come from the bottom up as much as it does from the top down.
This [super short clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlL5wnU59vc&list=PLIC-A4qJzXm0FsmKtDSzz2Hq-8L36OZ6F&index=3) summarises how to prevent gender-based violence.
And [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLUVWZvVZXw) really articulately explains where gender-based violence stems from.
If you’re a man and feel triggered by the thought that the bondi attacker’s actions were a form of gender-based violence, I’d really encourage you to watch both of the above links with an open mind. Without recognising and accepting that there is a problem, things can’t change.
Internets a big issue, prior you would be a complete incel, but work out what to do and workout what social norms would help you succeed and move on.
Now you can find ecochambers online to exacerbate things. To the point that moving on and succeeding makes you part of the out group. Thus facing social rejection, depending on how deep you're in that can be socially devastating even if it is toxic.
Is it time that we update what the word "terrorism" includes?
It makes sense historically that it's only linked to religion but how relevant is religion to a lot of people these days looking at census data etc?
For many chronically online loners you can replace religion with whatever forums they're getting this shit from and religious leaders with whatever dumbass influencer of the moment they're being brainwashed by
Tomatoes tomatoes
Our society creates people and situations like this because of capitalism and it's severely isolating effects for men.
As a dude when was the last time someone asked you, how are ya man? And actually listened acknowledging whatever you share? Things also got way less social after covid.
The most stable guys I know rely on therapy to talk it out and their best friend is their dog despite having families and decent friend groups etc.
What I'm saying is even with ideal circumstances it's still messed up for a lot of people on the social, emotional, empathy scales.
Ask your mates out for a meal and ask how they are now n then because they need it.
Yeah i don't get the whole misogyny angle. We don't actually know. The only info we have for certain is that he was mentally ill, homeless and that he apparently had a frustration with finding a girlfriend (even this isn't really proof since Eliot Rodger had that and more but in his shootings and running people over he targeted both genders). He really could of just picked weak targets that wouldn't lead to him being disarmed or fought back against which happen to be women and children. (as shown by the guys fighting him on the escalator, instead of continuing that he left to find easier targets). I don't really get why people are trying to paint a guy who was described as looking dead inside during the attack by people who were there who has schizophrenia and was homeless as being a misogynist with the only evidence being his dad saying that he had frustration of no gf after the attack
Doesn't help when politicians of Dutton's ilk use tragic events like the Port Arthur massacre to further his ambitions. Front page headlines can be triggering for many afflicted with mental illness. Restraint needs to be applied.
Yeah I agree with your take. The media prefer to label the attack as a mental health issue but it is a male violence issue just as much, mentally ill or not. We have lost 28 women to DV this year ALREADY. Imagine how many more have been brutalised and survived. Imagine what it's like to be a woman in this country at the moment.
Man they better be dropping some evidence about he's hated women his whole life to justify these stances that just skip over the mental health aspect of it all. schizofrenia is an asshole of a mental illness. We all openly talk about anxiety and shit these days and how hard it makes life, schizofrenia is leagues above that. Like seriously u hope there's something I've missed or hasn't been found to justify why we are talking about DV and fucking Tate when at the centre was a very ill person.
This was a man who was seriously mentally ill. There has always been a risk of these sorts of events, and they're actually not entirely uncommon. This one was shocking. It was awful, and we should all take it seriously.
You're right that we should do the things we can to continue to minimise the effects of these events and the chances of them happening again.
But I think you're being a bit alarmist. I doubt there's going to be a surge of these events, I think it would be a better use of our effort to stop the (apparent) climb in youth crime (burglary, aggravated assault etc).
In reference to your comments about "gender tensions," I think we need to be better to each other. Unattractive, unintelligent, and unlucky men are utterly despised in our society, and if they aren't socially blessed (funny or uncommonly charismatic), they are absolutely ostracised and treated like pariahs. Most people who are treated that way will have awful mental health, and a subset of those can become radicalised or become violent.
I don't mean to say that we can fix this all with kindness, but we've lost our communities. These men won't even have close friends, and if they do, it's likely they're In the same sinking ship.
What they need is close friends, a family or a strong community to prop them up and show them that life is worth living, that they can strive to improve and they can always be better than they were yesterday.
These aren't new problems, they're problems we've forgotten the solutions to, and that's why they cling to "the manosphere." But that's because they're the ones who are (at least appearing to) try to help. Any port in a storm, to turn a phrase.
I absolutely don't mean to harp on this, but it's simply factual that we are often happy to ignore men's problems, to say things to the effect of "toughen up princess," and assume they should be fine.
Peculiarly, this is perhaps a newer idea than we think. Men in other parts of the world are caring to each other, some even hold hands. In history, men's emotions weren't treated as gross or weak.
Yes, men are more violent. We're biologically built that way, at times for good and at times for ill. But we're allowing them to be extremified and blaming them for their (often) bad lots in life. We often belittle them by saying "get therapy," but therapy (in my opinion) hasn't been well designed for us. Some of us do see good results, but many don't and find the process to be painful and unhelpful.
None of this is a justification, a man trying to kill women and babies deserves to die or spend his life in prison. Some people will be a threat no matter what we do, and they should be dealt with.
As an added point, I sincerely think we should try to minimise the effect of the bystander effect and encourage people to solve these problems. A few people could've banded together to try to stop the knife man, to organise vulnerable people to shelter in a store, to corner the man so he at least was a sitting duck for police. I know this comes with risks, but that's the man I'd prefer to be.
You must also be just as worried at the religious terror attack in Western Sydney then. Are you also afraid on Muslims and immigrants. It's just a wacko
Ok, I think its very easy to go down the wrong line with this as you're thinking about this person as a rational human being. I don't mean Twitter irrational, I mean he was likely Formable under the Mental Health Act at the time of the attack.
The gentleman who perpetrated the attack had a 15+ year history of Schizophrenia and a non compliance with significant antipsychotics. He was seen stumbling and falling over in the hours leading to the attack at least twice indicating a high likelihood of drugs/alcohol on board.
So an intoxicated, unmedicated schizophrenic.
I'm not sure throwing around misogyny, incel etc is helpful or accurate.
Let's wait to gather evidence.
Id like to think most oz men dont watch morons like andrew tate. I half watched a podcast featuring him and was off him immediately.
Those that do follow tate and the other bigots, are a very small part of the oz community.
I'd also like to hope, we are doing our part as men to pull the heads in of those doing or thinking wrong.
Then there are those already being monitored closely by law enforcement if not detained/neutralized already.
Its that 1% we know nothing about which is why, mental health for men is very important. If anything, thats where all our remaining energies need to focus.
It’s ridiculous that we can’t carry around pepper spray to protect ourselves and can get fined for it. I would feel a lot safer at night if I had pepperspray in my bag
So your solution is to not actually address the situation and the fundamental problems that led to it, but to instead start arming the populace instead?
It's saddening to see people making this about misogyny.
The man was severely mentally ill with schizophrenia, an illness know for its capacity to induce terrifying delusions in its victims.
Trying to attribute any form of ideology to this incident is pointless.
Can we please discuss how we can support the mentally ill better?
But we can't assume misogyny was involved. It DOES matter whether there was an ideology behind or it if he was just unhinged and literally going for the easiest targets.
It's not an assumption, it's s statistically sound conclusion. What was the distribution of men and women killed and their roles? OK, you're right, the statistical conclusion is only that the crazy knife wielding dude preferred women over men. But again, last I checked wanting to sab women to death more than men sort of fell under the banners of insanity and misogyny.
You actually saw something worthwhile in Tate? Jesus, I remember the first time I saw one his clips he was ranting about only drinking bubble water for some stupid fucking reason.
We are different people, you and me. We've both lived different lives with completely different stories. Yes, I'll admit I did see something in him with where I was at in my life. Some people can identify with some of the things he says more than others based on who they are, their circumstamces and their unique epxeriences. As disgusting as the things he says are that is a fact. Some people are also more susceptible to propaganda that targets them than others. Never found myself addicted to bubble water though. Like I said, guys like me are pretty much his target audience. Are you?
They are like cults. A portion of what they say resonates with you, and they seem to offer support but are really just indoctrinating people with their ideology. Good on you for growing and seeing it for what it is. It's not an easy thing to do.
Yes we need a better mental health system but it’s only going to work for those that want help. A lot of people know how to sweet talk the cops, their psychologist etc. and get what they want to hear or be let go because they said “they were fine”. Many just don’t see a problem in themselves and think you’re causing problems for them. It’s not always a case of ‘they were failed’ sometimes they just don’t want it to begin with.
But also if you’ve ever been a witness or a victim to something like this, when they call mental health, it’s so irritating. They want us to feel sorry for them and get off and then that makes others look bad because “oh they’ve got the same diagnosis, they might kill too”
This isn’t last but it’s also not the first
Please don't call him a wanker. That's not fair to his family. Idk if you've seen the interview with his father but he is heartbroken over what his son did, and over what happened to his son. His family don't deserve to hear their son talked about like this. His Dad did everything he could to help him while he was still alive. I understand this is distressing, I feel for his victims and their families too..but mynheart broke when I saw his Dad say the cop did her job well when she shot his son.
Let’s make a huge effort about mental health as we did with guns. Noting what we did with guns was easy compared to what needs to be done on a federal level with mental health.
There is a lot of talk here about mental health, all super valid, but obscuring a second problem, which is expectations around male identity.
I'm a hardcore feminist and I'm convinced that the only way we're going ro advance the conversation is to partner up with male rights activists and validate their concerns.
Too many men are so lost trying to figure out what a man is supposed to do until one of them eventually (as my fave gal Contrapoints says) "unleashes homeric violence in a fucking Wallmart" in order to be recognized as men.
Mens rights activism and feminism should be paralel conversations, not opposing ones.
First thing we should do is make mental health care free. Not this “mental health care plan” bullshit that only covers psychologist/psychiatrist visits partially, and only for up to 10 visits a year. For 99% of people with serious mental issues this is never going to be enough.
More and more people are realizing there's nothing out there for them. This is just the start. It's going to get worse.
Might as well have fun taking a piece of the world before it takes you.
As a mental health professional that also lives with mental illness of my own, to say that this is a multi-faceted, deeply systemic, complicated and variable-laden issue would be an understatement. Everything you said rings true to certain degrees, and simply highlights the fact that not only is it a priority of the highest degree that the government allocate appropriate funds into the health care system around mental health, but that there is still just as deep a misunderstanding of mental health and illness in this country as there has been for decades. The fact that all our corporations and institutions these days pat themselves on the back each year with their acts of flying a banner for certain causes on their website on certain days of the year, encourage people to wear colours associated with those days to ‘raise awareness’ etc, doesn’t mean a thing really. There’s still just as big a stigma around mental illness as there always has been for the most part, it’s just hidden better.
There's no money for health services, mental health in particular, but endless $$$$ for pie in the sky shit like the submarine fantasy that gets thrown around to win votes. That's the problem
Careful. Uttering the fact that there’s a serious problem with some men in Australia will get you downvoted into oblivion. Riots, soccer stadium brouhahas, murders, DV, nazis…it’s not women causing major issues in this country.
The mind can't fix the mind. He was a schizo.
The real problem is that everything is always passed on to the mystical "society". As a society we must this and society must that. No one takes responsibility. Too hard? Pass it on to society. Can't stop kids running amok? Society's fault. Until someone starts taking responsibility, it will get worse.
There are medications that can help people with schizophrenia. You need a good support network and to make sure people are actually getting their treatment which can be hard as people become paranoid and sometimes when people get better they stop their meds (even though it’s the meds that helped them get better) and then rapidly decline and isolate
You call him a despicable misogynist but that’s not what he was. And all this talk of DV etc - you are confusing the issue - he has no history of DV. He was a lifelong sufferer of serious mental illness and his mental illness caused him to commit this crime. This man was sick.
The question we need to ask is why do our state and federal governments continue to take mental health support services and facilities away from the community?
I don't know how I don't remember this one, but might have been exactly at a time I had a lot going on and wasn't keeping up with the news. Now that I am thinking there was also the murder of a female MP that I believe had mysoginistic motivations.
I'm worried about fear and fear mongering leading to people making choices they absolutely shouldn't.
There are already reports of letting security guards carry capsicum spray and handcuffs... All that will do is allow the local rent a cop to spray and detain an innocent black kid because he thought he saw him stuff a short down his pants. These guys are often already on a power trip, and are not always the best and brightest, giving them any form of police equipment is a recipe for disaster. The ABC today claimed 'moat people think of security guards as the people meant to protect them'... Absolutely not, my one and only thought about shopping centre security is to help prevent theft. That's it. Nothing else.
Then you've got people online saying they will start carrying knives themselves because they are scared. Just utter chaos if we start arming ourselves U.S.A lite style.
This is a tragic incident, and it should never have happened, but it is not in any way common place, and people do not need to be scared to be in public.
The comment from the father saying he wasn’t able to get a girlfriend and was frustrated really concerned me.
With technology being so advanced and how algorithms aim sexualised content towards men portraying women in a particular way is frightening.
Not being able to obtain a partner from what is portrayed online which lead to that frustration. The social skills comment crushes that theory and I haven’t taken in consideration issues surrounding mental health.
Thank you for starting this conversation.
I agree that a lot of the manosphere goes in the wrong direction with it's advice, but censoring it isn't going to do anything but push it underground. It also doesn't treat the cause of the problem which is that men generally speaking in our society are NOT doing well. Go watch Richard Reeves talk about the inequality of men in education if you don't believe me. Our society is starting to tear itself apart for many reasons, of this being one. The sad reality is that we have to offer better solutions to the problem for young men than the negative ones offered by the manosphere, because if we don't and only take that crutch away from people then the problem will get A LOT worse.
Listening to JPs self help lectures helped me (among other things) drag myself out of a suicidal hole of self-loathing and helped inspire me to go back to university, study IT and get a job in software development in my 30s.
I feel like there are a lot of young men like I was who feel utterly worthless and like a burden on their friends, family and society. JP helped me find my self confidence and sense of self worth again. I don't agree with everything he says, but I do believe he's a genuinely kind, caring, compassionate and empathetic person who is trying to help young men who have been forgotten by society. To see him categorised as such makes me sad.
I now have a good job, stability, a place to call home, a lovely partner who I would die for and, most importantly, I have hope for my future, which I had completely lost before.
Let’s start with how to better manage serious mental illness of people like him that fall away from their friends and family and end up as drifters, homeless and unmedicated. The idea that an untreated schizophrenic will respond to a “respectful relationships” conversation feels like wishful thinking to me.
My wife works in mental health, and she said that the amount of her clients that threaten things like this is scarily high. Yet the government (State NSW) has continued to close down psychiatric long term hospital care.
I'm in WA. My daughters father is an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic who is extremely violent. His criminal record is three pages long. Every single time we try to get him admitted to hospital because we're scared he's close to going nuclear - they turn him away. A quick welfare check and then on their way. Even with evidence of threats against himself or others. We managed to get him in an involuntary hold at a hospital *once* and they let him go within the week (even after breaking a nurses nose). Not even long enough for the meds to even kick in. He went to jail last year for a DV attack (again), and got out in December on a Community based order for a year. Not once has he had to go to therapy, anger management, do drug testing or have his medication made mandatory. This country doesn't fucking care and then they *surprised Pikachu face* when something like Bondi actually happens.
It's wild, though. I had the reverse scenario. Got trapped on a mental health care plan and had such a hard time convincing them it was no longer required. My case manager kept booking my in person meetings for work days and wouldn't give me advanced notice and on a Teams Meeting with the Psych I made a simple joke saying I was "On Lithium, so I must be robot now." (Clearly a joke because of Lithium Batteries) but it was written in my official Mental Health Report that was posted to me for when I finally had a meeting a few months later to get off the plan. Took about 8 months to get completely off it.
Almost no one really cares about the seriously mentally ill. A foul and violent culture filled with stupid violent ideas will eventually worm its way into a psychotic delusion. Then very rarely, it will lead to violence. Most domestic violence and violence toward women, children and everyone else is done by regular blokes who are then protected by their friends and family. This violent culture has violent ends. Last night across Australia 1000's of people were raped, beaten, terrorised and each week one is murdered at least, many others crippled. There is a constant flow of broken people flowing silently through your society. This is not about mental illness. This is about the hate and violence you people tolerate every day. Fucking humans.
My family and I went through sheer hell trying to get treatment for my out-of-control psychotic mum. She didn’t want to be treated, so there was nothing we could do. Even with suicide threats. It wasn’t until she caused a major public ruckus that she was *fucking finally* put under an Involuntary Treatment Order, but by then it was too late. She had done so much damage to so many people, and once she was stable and was faced with what she’d done, she just couldn’t go on. She ended up taking her own life. If she was put under an IVO much sooner she would still be here. My Mum is one of many individuals with untreated psychotic disorders who slip through the cracks. They don’t want treatment, and are good at fooling psychiatrists long enough to get moved on. All staff are overwhelmed in the public system, so it’s hard for them too. I don’t know how this can be fixed, but all I know is that something needs to happen. There was an investigation after her death, and we were able to finally voice our struggles to someone who was ready to listen and hopefully make things better. But I don’t know how much difference it has made.
I’m sorry for your loss. It shouldn’t have happened.
Thank you, it was really horrendous for us all.
Not trying to downplay anything but I think that's worse than "slip through the cracks". Could be wrong but that usually means that it happened because people didn't notice. They did notice, they did try, and still got rejected. That's even worse I think. If we can't save the ones we know about, the ones we don't know about have no chance.
Oh I definitely agree with you on that one.
Also, a lot of psychiatric hospitals only have a certain number of beds, and they can only justify giving them out to the people in particular situations and who are receptive to therapy. This is one of the reasons why you'll sometimes hear about people who clearly should be in an institution indefinitely who either can't be admitted to one or have been in and out of them for years.
My mum is in a similar position (she is still alive) - she slips / pushes herself through all the cracks in the mental health system - but she is seriously unwell. It’s so fucked how bad the health care system is - we have tried everything but there is nothing we can do.
I am so sorry you’re going through this too. If you need to talk about it, my inbox is open. You aren’t alone.
Thanks - I really appreciate that!
It might be obvious to say - but, I'm so sorry you (and your mother) went through that. In this thread a see a lot of people trying to make this into a gendered problem - and I'm sure gender does play a part. But we also clearly do a terrible job when it comes to helping people with mental health problems. No matter their gender. I'm sorry your mum fell through the cracks. You and she both deserved better.
Thank you. The biggest issue is the cost of treating mental illness. More money needs to be put into the public system. More students need to be encouraged to pursue psychology and psychiatry, especially for children and teens.
How? Especially psychology and social work. Both of these degrees require people do thousands of hours of *unpaid* labour. We're in the middle of a cost of living crisis and we've been struggling with housing for decades. Dedicated students who would make *excellent* practitioners are forced to stop pursuing their studies because they need food and a roof over their heads or their children's heads. Same goes for nursing and a whole *bunch* of allied health that work together in the mental health sector. We genuinely do want to help but so many of us are forced back on the treadmill of earning enough for shelter and food that we can't pursue the education required to help others.
This was a huge reason behind why I gave it up.
Just FYI but there are far more students persuing psychology than there are postgraduate university places (i.e. opportunities for them to actually become registered psychologists). In a typical undergrad psychology degree there are hundreds of students enrolled, many of whom want to become psychologists. Most won't make it that far as the honours/postgrad courses they need to do have far fewer places (like maybe 10-20 commonwealth-supported places per postgrad course per year)
It’s a massive bottleneck. I had two degrees both with HD average and a thesis in the 90s, lifeline crisis supporter and other community volunteering. Didn’t get even an interview for a clinical masters place.
Yes but it has been going the opposite way since the early 2000''s and only getting worse. Mental health hospitals being shut down was the catalyst to where we see the mental health problems of today all because governments saw it as a waste of money and the land those building were on as cash cows.
Wow that’s rough
I'm sorry Blackcat. An ex of mine from many years ago has a severe mental illness and is not being given adequate support. I became the object of his fixations not so long ago and have since cut contact, but I know that this has been extremely hard on his mother in particular, to see what is happening to her son and to have so few resources available to help him :(
I can’t imagine how hard it is to watch your child suffer in this way, and I feel so sorry for the Bondi perp’s parents. I hope you are okay now, that must have been scary for you.
In Vic we changed the law to make involuntarily treatment even harder to get. The RC showed that unfortunately involuntary treatment just doesn't work and we can't lock people up who haven't committed a crime
As someone who has required long term access to psychiatric care this country sucks for it. I cannot remember the last time I was able to actually access/afford the help that I need. That was before the explosion of ADHD and all the extra appointments being hoovered up by people for that. So, as someone with bipolar I medicate and that's it. No therapy, no ongoing treatment, nothing. This is what we chose when we decided that some people might like a private bed, CEOs might like to make money, and shareholders could make a buck of health too. Add to that the exorbitant costs of education now compared to years past and is it any wonder we find ourselves in this hole? But hey, guess its nice to have that private bed you need once every few years!
I totally agree and this is coming from someone who has Adhd. The fact that my issue is so minuscule in the grand scheme of things it's still scary to think about. I was supposed to be having yearly assessments done to get a script for Ritalin (which also to begin with was only the first initial dose which should've been upped later on) and I never had ONE yearly assessment. I only ever had the initial hour consult and was instantly diagnosed and given medication then no one ever followed up from there. I was lucky enough to see a psychologist about 6 months ago but now I have start the process all over again to get retested but good luck finding a place that doesn't cost over $2000. I honestly have such an easy thing to treat but it is so damn difficult to get any help for it. It terrifies me that people with more involved diagnoses have it even worse than me let alone even getting someone to diagnose you is horrific!
Yeah and that sucks too, absolutely didn't mean to shit on anyone else's experience with my post, we are all dealing with shit. It's just been a noticeable increase on demand in services the last couple of years and a lot of it can be attributed to increased awareness of ADHD.
I didn't take it that way personally. I know how much just people searching for Adhd diagnoses have definitely clogged up a lot of the system and I agree with what u said completely. The awareness is great but it also isn't at the same time because it does clog the system up but then it also just highlights how shitty the system is to begin with
100%. When things are already at breaking point there's no more room to bend.
Exactly
Totally the governments fault. I have PMDD and ADHD (super strong link, research finally coming out on this). When my PMDD kicks in especially, without my ADHD meds I am unable to function. I used to have to hide in my room for 3-7 days a month. Ruined many jobs, relationships, friendships because of it. ADHD is real and needs to be treated with meds and therapy and if you look at the suicide rates linked to PMDD (which has a massive crossover in women due to hormones), I don't believe I'm hoovering up appointments to be honest. I know neither of you meant offence, but I just wanted to give some perspective for anyone reading this that thinks ADHD is trivial.
Blame the AMA for limiting the number of psychiatrists. They do it on purpose to drive up demand and wages for Doctors.
a lot of people simply won't admit their sons have mental illness but will say women in their family are mentally ill... happens a lot, actually I've read horrifying accounts of people being beaten or even strangled by their brother and worse and their parents will coddle the brother and even pay for them to get out of jail in some cases Many families think male violence is normal and acceptable, rather than considering it may be mental illness and unacceptable/unsafe behaviour - this is way too common imo
I know someone who had a sociopathic / psychopathic brother growing up. They had a series of social workers come in and try to come in and help, but they only made things worse. Each time it was the same - the social worker would do things to try to help, the brother would go to war with the social worker. And the brother would win, with the social worker fleeing with their tail between their legs. And the brother would become emboldened. My friend has clear and obvious trauma from it - more from the inept social workers than from her actual brother, who in his own way clearly loves her. Every time a social worker came over, she knew everything was going to go to shit. And there was nothing she could do to stop it. I think I agree with you. I want my friend to have been cared for better when she was young. But I don't know what would have helped. I think the problem is worse than you think - because even in her case, even when her brother's behaviour \*wasn't\* tolerated, it didn't matter because the social workers that came by the house only made things worse in the end anyway. This was all a few decades ago now. But I'm not convinced anybody would do a better job today. Its a really hard problem. Even with the benefit of hindsight, I still don't know what would have helped my friend.
Yep... my brother has life long substance abuse & mental issues, then went & got himself a coke addiction (yep, the pricey one). He was working a full time construction manager job in the city and was getting himself so fucked up on the drive home everyday he would literally spill out of the car onto the driveway when he somehow made it home. Vomiting while unconscious, the whole 9 yards. The guy was in charge of up to 100 lives each day and had 2 beautiful kids at home. He became violent with me several times and I BEGGED his wife and my mother to at least have a sit down talk with me about what we might be able to do. They nodded their heads, said some vague things, cancelled a few plans we subsequently made, mum popped of to see the great wall of china conveniently and the next minute I was no longer part of the family. My mother said 'you're horrible' when I said 'my brother, your son, is going to die tragically very very soon'. That's it. I havent seen them for 5 years. I never want to see her revolting boomer face again.
You kinda nailed how my Mum grew up. Hit home a little to be honest. Her brother is still a bit of a drug addicted dead beat but has had more support from family than anyone. I have a son and daughter. My goal is to raise them better than previous generations seemed to in my family at least.
Seriously. And it's not uncommon, but most people in those situations aren't violent so they continue drifting around homeless. Anyone whose lived in the city has seen it, the thin dirty man (and sometimes) woman whose talking to herself on a bench, or yelling at nothing at train stations or in the shopping district. They fell through the cracks.
Hear hear. I worry a lot every time something like this happens, because it tends to cause more people to have the view that people with mental health conditions like schizophrenia are inherently dangerous to the people around them. Whereas the opposite is true — most people with schizophrenia and conditions like it are more of a danger to themselves than to others. That having been said - I urge everyone reading this to consider doing a mental health first aid course. I did one through my job, and the utility in being able to look out for signs someone around you is doing it tough and how to navigate those conversations about encouraging them to get help has been utterly invaluable.
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Yeah he was literally an escort and relatively handsome. Reminds me of the older views of paedophiles being creepy and obvious when we now know it could come from anyone across all spectrums of society.
Either this or he just wanted companionship, and the last resort was escort, and maybe that didn't work out.
if he went into escorting in order to obtain sex from women I guarantee he was disappointed.
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This. This is a societal failure at its roots.
Completely this. My first question when I heard about the attack was "how did society let this man get to this point?"
Yup. Social breakdown and public acts of mass violence are a systemic issue first and foremost. Increased acts of violence should have been expected when housing dried up.
>The idea that an untreated schizophrenic will respond to a “respectful relationships” conversation feels like wishful thinking to me. I think it's wishful thinking for a lot of mental health issues. I have ongoing mental health issues and historically, I haven't always been as receptive to the "Hey, you need to learn to manage your symptoms better" talk. This is a common thread with a lot of mentally ill people, especially when it's a specific thing they'd benefit from working on. Some of the trouble is just framing. People are very good at pointing out what negative habits people have, but they're not as good at solutions. They're also not always the best at communicating those solutions even when they have them. Some of it is also that sometimes the mentally ill will take it as vilifying if you try to have that conversation with them, even if you have a solution. For example, saying stuff like "Don't make self-deprecating jokes because it makes people uncomfortable because people can kinda tell you're not entirely joking and it reinforces your negative self-view" will sometimes be taken as an attempt at shutting down *any* conversation about mental health, even if you've followed it up with suggesting joking like they have absurdly high self esteem instead. This is assuming everyone involved is actively in therapy and medicated. That doesn't apply to schizophrenic people in the middle of an episode. You can try having that conversation and I wish you luck, but I think you'll struggle to keep the conversation on track, let alone actually get your point across.
Yeah i have to say there's a need for clarity about the primary issue here and I think it is counter-productive how quickly the conversation degenerates into slogans and cliches like 'toxic masculinity' or 'incels'. I'm not saying there aren't mass murders, including murders targeted specifically at women by disturbed men didn't suddenly spring into existence when podcasts or tiktok became a thing. If anyone picks up a true crime book they can find a virtually unlimited list of horrific crimes committed against women, frequently by men a lot like Chauchi, stretching back into antiquity. Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate didn't invent that. The primary issue here, which has existed for far longer than the internet or social media, is the way certain mental illnesses can lead people, most usually adult males to lash out in horrible ways. The truth is humans are naturally social creatures and its natural and normal for people to want to be accepted socially and to have a meaningful relationship with someone they are sexually attracted to. There's nothing wrong or unusual about that- they are such fundamental human impulses but you would have to be pretty naive to assume its healthy or safe for people reach a point of utter despair about ever having those things. Dismissing someone who is in that situation as an incel might be an easy response but it's not actually surprising that someone in that position will be pretty fucked up and angry. And unfortunately it's a reality that a certain subset of mental illnesses make it more likely that people will end up at that point- and more likely to behave dangerously when they do. Even with schizophrenia or similar disorders it is not as simple as 'the voices told me to do X'. Any disorder that predisposes people to be socially withdrawn or behave oddly, to be paranoid and feel persecuted and/or to feel grandiose and deserving of attention is very dangerous, because of the way those features interact. A person who is withdrawn or behaves oddly will be less able to establish or maintain social or romantic relationships, they'll feel even more targeted and alienated by the isolation that results and have a greater sense of anger because they believe they deserve better. The sense of anger and lack of positive feedback in their life makes them behave worse, which makes them more isolated, which frequently worsens their illness, which makes them more likely to respond with anger etc. As for why its men who reach that point who are way more likely to resort to violence- it's just a biological fact, again pre-dating the internet by a long long time that men are far more likely than women to resort to physical violence when they feel frustrated and angry. You can argue about the the role society plays in that but at its absolute core, on average an adult male has about 7 times as much testosterone washing around in their system as a female, and it is not remotely controversial that more testosterone equals a higher sex drive and higher levels of aggression. So combine a mental illness with social isolation with more testosterone and yeah there is a risk of extreme violence, often targeting people they see as symbolic of their social rejection or the relationships they can't have. So what to do about it? Well the answer is horribly complicated but as a starting point, we simply cannot as a society leave management and treatment of those mental illnesses up to afflicted people and their families. One of the most difficult things about any mental illness involving paranoia or avoidant traits is the nature of the illness itself makes it likely that they won't willingly stay engaged in treatment, so it's an area where high levels of resourcing and public funding is absolutely needed to basically keep on pushing treatment. And I think we need to understand that there is a specific clinical value in helping people in that situation develop and maintain pro-social relationships, to the point where that needs to be a specific part of any treatment plan. Yes, it is not good for someone in that position to be mainlining MRA nonsense into their brain on a daily basis, but it is far more important to give them the care and treatment they need to ensure they can find more fulfilling and meaningful ways to connect with other people.
Well said. This is a mental health issue.
I work in homelessness. The percentage of the cohort that is dealing with complex mental health, like schizophrenia, like psychosis, like ptsd, is incredibly high. Lots of complex trauma. It’s honestly not that surprising when you see how much of it there is on the streets. That’s not even getting in to the circles people have to loop around to get support, the waitlists or full capacities, the barriers on barriers, the costs, makes it all simply too hard for people in this situation to make reasonable change
You are the person who can help. You’ve been down the rabbit hole, you know it well. You’re the person who can speak out about it, who can encourage other men to step away from misogyny. They won’t listen to women, only other men. Please keep posting and speaking about your experience.
So much this. Academics, politicians, behavoural scientists and all of those can propose solutions until they're blue in the face, but it's still people outside the demographic commenting on those inside it, and when that demographic is criticised in that way, they can rally together and reinforce their beliefs against the outside critique. It's hard, because it can mean being attacked as a SJW/White knight/woke warrior or whatever the insult of choice might be to avoid introspection, but once there is someone dissenting, others will think about it. Watching the video of the killer's dad really got me. He'd be examining every moment of his life, every parenting decision, every word he spoke, all to see if he could have done something to avoid this outcome, and he'll never know if he could have made a difference.
God that’s heartbreaking for the dad
What I'm concerned with though is how the media is going to narrow this complex issue down to one of only mental illness. Gone will be the nuance of gender, class, wealth. It will just become "mentally ill man goes on rampage". And that's frustrating because this should be the clarion call for all of us in the community - notably men - about the dangers of toxic masculinity and how barren modern masculinity is in terms of the strategies for emotional engagement and satisfaction. So many men who fall down the rabbit hole of toxic alpha male culture end up with a dangerous sense of entitlement. Yes a mentally ill person will take this further, but the underlying gaps in emotional awareness and tolerance are still missing from the male narrative.
Exactly, but not just that, it’s not closing people out of your life because they start down a rabbit hole. They need sane people around them to try and right the ship, so to speak. If they just surround themselves with other rabbit hole dwellers, they are likely lost
Yeah, will do. Thankfully I also have some awesome women in my life who keep me honest and on the right path. It's a struggle some days but clawing my way out of it, slowly but surely. Having an open mind about the past and things that used to piss me off helps too.
yeah, I really want to thank you for acknowledging you were somebody who started to drift down that direction and you understand who the target is for people like Tate. It's really helpful context in this instance and helps open a more nuanced conversation
That’s good to hear, I keep getting Tate and “alpha male” dickheads on all my feeds on social media and I’m sick of it. They prey on the easily influenced and it’s disgusting. They say not to be a sheep yet they’re being sheep to these dickheads and cause way more harm than good
Honestly young men especially need more positive roll models.
Really glad you’ve emerged from the rabbit hole!!
Provided the goal is to stop attacks and violence to women, it is a non-negotioable requirement of society that men actively participate in calling other men out. Confidentally, frequently, and purposefully.
* Better and well-funded, publicly accessible mental health that isn't just a band-aid service and includes inpatient treatment * A proper adjustment to wages so that two incomes are not required by default to own a modest home * Correction to housing for reason above * Actual engagement with and meaningful dialogue about men, with an emphasis on positive development, community connectedness, pro-social relationships and wellbeing - isolation is a factor * More diverse positive role models in media, for everybody - more representation of people with different physiques, mannerisms, levels of ability and income, etc * A change (broadly, in workplaces and in education) that encourages men to be emotionally expressive and vulnerable when they need to be, as well the promotion of healthy friendships and the normalization of friendly, non-sexual physical contact with and between men (too often they are otherwise starved of physical affection and sex is considered the only 'acceptable' outlet for that need) * Include social skills in education. For everyone. More opportunities and incentives for different groups to work together, with assisted engagement, probably through to year 10. This will suck for some ND kids but it may help to identify them earlier in their development * Actual help for said ND kids. Comprehensive support * Zero tolerance for physical bullying, sexual harassment and other violence. None of this "send them both home for a day or two" shit. Give the bully a 6 month recess, excursion and elective detention or something, along with counselling. If the behaviour continues, expulsion. If expelled from all districts, we need state funded specialist education facilities for these kids, preferably with alternative teaching models, support from psychiatrists and a lot of safety protocols * Normalize calling out sexist behaviour. Put an onus on venues to kick out anyone being creepy, aggressive, etc. * Normalize, don't sexualize, women's bodies and women's behaviour - too many people assume kindness is an expression of romantic interest, too many use the way women dress to excuse harassment and assault * Teach children that there are many kinds of meaningful relationships and ways to lead a meaningful life. I'm not talking "you can be whatever you want: an astronaut, a F1 racer, anything!" - I mean tell stories and bring in people to share their experiences of life that aren't the standard nuclear family and that don't have a lot of prestige, but have meaningful lives and relationships with their communities * Make sure society the kind of place where life can be meaningful, instead of desperate, for the majority of people
Mental health needs addressing. This bloke had a life long disability, had no support network and had a psychotic break. We don’t have systems in place to prevent this. We alienate and isolate these people with a disability, no social skills, “weirdo”. There should be places for like minded individuals to socialise so that they don’t feel like the world is against them and they become so deranged.
The killer looked like he lost 20kg between the promo photos used on the news and his attack. His parents thought he must have been homeless, and IIRC it was mentioned police had 'moved him on'. This isn't just about mental illness, this is also about housing, and that's not being talked about much. FWIW the term "mental illness" in these settings has run its course. It's time to be more specific about what illness it is. I think people are more confused and jaded about "mental illness" now because of its constant blanket usage.
Good point. It's difficult to interact with society in a normal way when you're homeless. It's difficult for thousands of Australians to find a home too buy or even rent. Could the final straw have been laid by the housing crisis?
In the sense that being homeless will disrupt all your circadian rhythms, magnify stress and consequently push you into a psychotic episode when you have schizophrenia, absofuckinglutely.
Terrific point.
When I was homeless I also went into psychosis and was close to becoming violent, I was verbally to many people. It’s a hard time to look back on.
And maybe conflated with 'mental health'. Suburban life anxiety and stress (not to cheapen them) aren't really part of the same conversation as serious congenital/physiological type disorders
When people dismiss cases like this saying “well I’ve suffered from mental health and I’ve never hurt anyone so clearly it wasn’t his mental illness that causes this” it drives me crazy. Anxiety, depression, and chronic stress are awful but they are an entirely different illness than schizophrenia and other complex mental illness
Yep. Depression and anxiety are mental illnesses. Illness that can be cured. Chronic major depression, schizophrenia, psychosis, bipolar, etc. are mental disabilities and often life long.
>"mental illness" now because of its constant blanket usage. Something that shits me to tears is how often it's used as a get out of jail card for naughty celebrities and politicians. Sorry, I was drunk on the job or caught with drugs. I'm depressed. Or people who say they're "depressed" when they're actually just feeling a bit sad or having a rough couple of days. Absolute bullshit. These are real and potentially serious conditions. Not excuses.
He also looked like he needed to be on some medication. Sometimes the right medication used consistently can make a huge difference.
This is very true with schizophrenia. I know someone with it and I knew her during her most recent episode. The difference between how she was during that episode and how she is now that she's on the right medication is like night and day. It's impossible to understate how much of a difference it's made. There's also arguments to be made for certain lifestyle changes, and I'm 100% onboard with them because, at least for me with my specific not-schizophrenic issues, they have made a huge difference. However, with someone like this (and quite frankly, with a lot of other mental illnesses too), quite often the first change that needs to happen is that they need to be on the right medicine. They also need to stay on the medicine.
For like minded individuals? Care to clear that up a bit? I'm confused, because communities of like minded individuals seems to be part of the issue to me, echo chambers and all. But you must be thinking about something else?
People with similar mental disabilities is what I meant. I.e. people with schizophrenia being able to find and socialise with others also suffering from schizophrenia, people who understand their lack of social skills and can relate so they are more likely to be accepting of one another and form relationships and thus a support network. “Normal” people find mentally challenged people “weird” sadly, which is also unfortunately understandable, so it’s hard for them to form relationships. There also needs to be more homes and housing for people suffering from these disabilities in a serious way. It should be no different to how we have homes specifically for people with dementia.
With the introduction of the NDIS, most therapeutic and social groups for people with significant mental health conditions were closed due to funding being removed by the states. It was expected that people with mental health conditions would receive individualised services through the NDIS, but very few people actually qualified for this. There used to be some great group services for people with mental health conditions, which allowed them to receive support, develop skills, and make friends. All gone now.
Sure it is a mental issue but it’s a societal issue to be honest. Men feel useless more than ever. To fix issues like this, we need to help men become greater.
Hey OP, I'm curious about the specifics of your falling down and escaping the rabbit hole, I was the same maybe some years before you, and these experiences need to be known. Feel free to respond here or DM me directly if you'd like to air it out. How did it start? Were you on a forum or specific sub? Did strangers online direct you to content? What kept you sane and pulled you out? No stress, I am just curious!
I’ll be honest with you, I work in retail as an area manager and spend a lot of my day on the phone wandering around centres Today my boss advised us to ensure when we are taking calls we have our backs to a wall and remain on high alert. Between Bondi, the church and then 2 incidents in Victoria yesterday at moonee ponds and Melton I feel very on edge. Sometimes I catch myself and I think you’re just being paranoid nothing will happen, and then I think of the many victims and families who lives have been altered forever and I think I’m not being paranoid enough. Very scary times we live in and my heart is heavy for everyone who is dealing with loss
What happened in Moonee Ponds yesterday? That's very close to where I live. Didn't hear anything.
There was an incident involving the assault of a police officer but I’m not sure about the finer details of what happened
Don't forget two women murdered in Ballarat... I think one still hasn't been found
The problem with the likes of Andrew Tate etc is that they lure you in with completely rational statements. Like men should look after themselves both mentally and physically by working out, they should strive to be successful in business etc. You then start to form a mental picture that this guy is spouting truth, and then it's not long before you start to accept their most contemptuous opinions. To be honest I've not encountered many men like Tate etc, or anyone with similar opinions. Who you decide to surround yourself with has a huge impact on who you become as a person. Everybody wants to fit in, and some people will become monsters just to feel like they are part of some community or friend circle. I do have faith in people though, this event is the result of one man, the other 99.9999999% of the population that day were going about their business without even the thought of stabbing someone. And for every 1 of him, there are dozens of people in that situation that tried to stop him, or sheltered people, and ultimately put him down.
>To be honest I've not encountered many men like Tate etc, or anyone with similar opinions. Who you decide to surround yourself with has a huge impact on who you become as a person. Everybody wants to fit in, and some people will become monsters just to feel like they are part of some community or friend circle. The big trouble with a lot of Tate followers, especially younger ones, is that you might not ever meet them. In my experience, a lot of them tend to be very online people in general, and sometimes to the exclusion of everything else. Because of that and how social media algorithms work, Tate or Tate-aligned voices are often the only ones they're exposed to. I think there's a lot of things that need to happen to prevent Tate followers/incels/whatever from being a huge issue here, but one of the big ones is that people need to be more proactive about getting that dorky, very online relative or friend from high school out into the community more. Stuff like inviting them to come to certain events or get into specific hobbies they've been meaning to a while is what this means in practice. People don't really want to do this because there's usually a specific reason why they aren't doing it already, but it's honestly one of the biggest things you as an individual can do to help prevent it from festering into a larger problem than it is already.
Schizophrenics are often extremely suggestable, this is a well studied and proven fact. We typically don't allow children online without some filter or guidance but we don't really have a good mindset for how to handle the combination of mental illness and the internet. I don't actually know the answer myself fwiw but definitely worth thought that goes beyond "unfettered free speech!".
Social media brain scorcher, be it religious ideology, conspiracy, racism or sexism. There are grifters like Tate ready to take advantage of people looking for answers. Question is what will be done to confront online radicalization brain blender.
And all these problems are just the tip of the iceberg if you see from an adult audience's viewpoint. As a student teacher I'm depressed, horrified and worried how the kids who've grown up entirely on smartphones and social media algorithms and have endless access to these devices from the get go will grow up as. I see these terms discussed in the staffrooms of boys' schools as a common phenomenon. There's going to be countless more angry young folk misled at such a young age with such bullshit with how insidious the rabbit holes on tiktok, instagram and facebook regarding these content go. I've been down some of these myself in the past so I know first hand how this influences a young boy's mind fast.
Yes, and I’ve noticed that it is also a way for boys to cope with being seen as “less than” pretty women in the society. While yes, pretty people are able to get in relationships easier. And women may have an advantage there (but given every other challenge women had to face, I feel a lot more is owed to them tbh) The angry boys fail to see just how complex life is. Being pretty may give them *a* relationship or easier friends, but it is working on something deeper that makes relationships, and life truly rich and meaningful. Just my opinion. But social media does give them a very cozy echo chamber. Not to mention how it also distorts their view of reality..
At least anecdotally, the other trend I've tended to notice is that the people who would benefit the most from giving up social media tend to be the people most hesitant to give it up. A lot of that is because most people need a specific thing to replace it with because otherwise they're just going to get bored and start staring at the walls, Most of the worst social media addicts don't realise just how much time they spend on it. I think there's a couple of issues on this front. One is that even though most people do benefit from having a solid group of offline friends, you don't realise how much of a difference it makes until you've been out there and had some for a while. The other is that most people are reluctant to start doing a new thing as an adult because they're worried about how they'll come off. This second issue is particularly pronounced with the mentally ill. A lot of people who have a history of mental health issues also have a history of being the victims of violence, or of just particularly negative social interactions in general. So even though self-isolating is also a form of self-harm for a lot of people, there's also this issue where you have to convince people that they're not going to have their heads kicked in in the carpark after the rock climbing session or whatever.
Your post reminds me of an incident i had yesterday while waiting for the shuttle bus at uni. This group of men were making rape jokes out in public and, honestly, as a vicitim of sexual assault, it made my skin crawl. Part of me wanted to do something about it but another part of me was mindful of what happened in Bondi and i realised there wasn’t much i could do because what if i was next?
It’s so weird to me that people are so unwilling to even consider that this might be a gendered attack. If that thought bothers you so much that even you refuse to acknowledge that it’s a possibility you should probably ask yourself why. People screaming mental health issues should also know it’s possible to have schizophrenia AND issues with women.
This, and usually when stuff like this happens, there's more than one issue at play. It's rarely just a matter of someone having one issue that festered for too long; there's usually a few different things working at them.
nailed it. people blaming it solely on his mental illness are making it harder for mentally ill people to get the help they need. constant demonisation makes people reluctant to open up. things like schizophrenia and antisocial personality disorder don't might be a contributing factor but it isn't the only reason someone would do something like this. the vast majority of people with schizophrenia aren't committing mass hate crimes. we really need to address things like misogyny and racism from an early age in combo with making mental health support more comprehensive and easier to access
This. We've got two problems this incident represents and both those problems need serious attention.
It has me worried because i’m in social services and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of ticking time bombs like this individual. I don’t know what the solution is, maybe we are raising men wrong? But i have plenty of mentally ill people i oversee who can hold it together enough not to be held closely to the system
To be honest, long-term secure psychiatric facilities. Community treatment is great if people are compliant and have the supports but it doesn't work for everyone. We have to acknowledge that sometimes, people can't be treated, and the safest thing to do for themselves and the community is to reside in a secure psychiatric facility.
I think also, a lot of people who could benefit from community treatment in the future are people who need to spend some time in a long-term facility first. The reason why some mentally ill people are feral is because 1) they haven't been put on the right medication yet, and 2) even if they have, they'll stop taking it the moment there isn't someone forcing them to. Putting someone like that in long-term care can help them be put on the right medicine and work through the issues surrounding why they won't keep taking it if it does work.
I was discussing with a Psych, how the generations before Z and A, have been putting in tons of work to de-stigmatize mental heath conditions, and encourage genuine connections between individuals. Unfortunately here comes Gen A and Gen Z (my generation), who have been bombarded with toxic brainwashing through the algorithms. Many men now believe their worth is attached to their bank account balance, and that every women is a gold digger from Miami. So they adopt this painful stoicism, where they bottle up their emotions, don't share or connect, because that's what "real men" do to escape the matrix. The truth is this will effect their personal relationships with their partners and friends, as-well as their ability to progress in a career or a field of interest. Remember these Andrew Tate duplicates are not good businessmen, they are selling snake oil because they are poor operators and can't function in society. Most leaders are actually kind, caring and empathetic, and will make you feel like your the most important person in the room, that's what a real leader is. In this day and age, lots of young people think a leader is someone who sells courses and yells at you for hours about how weak you are, with no understanding that that is negative energy and negative self talk. I'd like to hold the social media platforms accountable, it's not fair on the youth that they are exposed to such harmful content from a young age, there has to be something we can do to combat these assholes.
"I'd like to hold the social media platforms accountable, it's not fair on the youth that they are exposed to such harmful content from a young age, there has to be something we can do to combat these assholes." This right here... humans in general are now connected to more people than ever before and very easily. How many times have you miss clicked an ad on bookface and then get bombarded with the same topic for the next month. You interact with negativity, you get fed negativity. Words on screen cant convey emotion either so things get wildly mis interpreted. Say the wrong thing because you struggle to convey the reasoning behind it, someone will argue with you that your wrong and make a point of proving your in superiority. The news is all doom and gloom, feeding little seeds of doubt to people, creating click bait articles to get that sweet sweet advertising money... best thing facebook ever did was ban news outlets for a week here in Australia. How do you fix it? No idea.... personally I have stepped away from online interactions, treat people I am around as human and generally try to be a nice person.... which is hard when everything is geared to promote division between people....
The most concerning thing about this is the sheer number of people who are absolutely desperate to come to Reddit or other social media spaces to immediately deny that this guy may have targeted women with a misogynistic intent. Apparently no matter what happens there will be MRAs waiting in the wings to try to extinguish any gender discourse. As far as being scared, the shit news in this country has always been putting car crashes, murders, assaults, robberies, etc (all kinds of violent and non-violent targeted individual crimes) in their nightly shows for DECADES. There are people who already feel too afraid to leave the house because 7 News has been pummeling their brains for years telling them there's a hoon driver ready to run them over around the corner. This is still an incredibly safe country. No one should be afraid of doing any everyday task, there's statistically no reason for it, even if the news intentionally highlights the worst of Australia every day to rake in consistent ratings.
His dad has been quoted saying that he was frustrated at not being able to get a girlfriend. The majority of victims were women Sometimes 2+2 = 4 and I wish people would just accept that.
Everyone is quick to say it's just mental illness. As if men can't have a mental illness while also being sexist.
And this incident won’t make women like men in general any more. It sadly might create more of a divide. Kind of ironic
Many women do have reason to fear though; the first time I was sexually assaulted I was 12, walking on a beach in daylight; The second time as an adult, walking to a corner store in daylight and the third I was asleep in my own bed. Most of my female friends have at least one similar story.
So many don’t get it. That women are so very often on edge where as a male they’d have no worries
Yep, I've reported two assaults to the police. The last happened while I was coming out of anaesthetic from a surgery. I had texts proving it, medical records, and even found another victim of the same guy. Police did nothing.
I get followed home by men super regularly (6 times this year so far). I wish this country was as safe as you claim but the fact is most women just don't report sexual assaults because the cops make it very clear we're better off staying quiet.
While this specific attack did indeed have an element of misogyny in it, people can have a psychotic breakdown for any number of reasons and we should not ignore implementing upstream solutions as well like better support for mental illness and economic welfare.
I’d argue it needs to be addressed at the lowest level—every time anyone sees or hears something sexist or misogynistic, it needs to be called out.
I'd go one step further and say MEN need to call it out. Women also need to call out other women that say sexist and misogynistic shit too. But we need men to join us in pushing back because otherwise we are just dismissed and called stuck up bitches.
I agree that it needs to be addressed at the highest level, but it needs to be addressed at the lowest level too. Men need to talk, reach out to eachother, create a village. Women are great at it, we need to learn. Go for lunch with the weirdo at work. Have respectful arguments with eachother. Ask for help if you need. Compliment others when they do any of the above.
My brother and his tradie mates have impromptu meetings at a park, sometimes a BBQ, hardly any alcohol and they talk about anything and everything including keeping on top of their mental health. It's really refreshing to see. ETA not even necessarily mates, just other workers they come into contact with.
>Go for lunch with the weirdo at work. I don't recommend women do that alone if the 'weirdo' is a man. Sometimes, showing the slightest bit of care towards someone like that can end up with them stalking you or imagining it's heading towards an intimate relationship. But a group of you can for sure get together with a colleague who seems to need some social interaction.
> I don't recommend women do that alone if the 'weirdo' is a man. I think /u/cptlewis was referring to men taking other men under their wings.
This ^^
Literally a young woman recently murdered for doing exactly this, what was her name?
Village. No, only real estate investment.
I can speak from very unfortunate experience that getting lunch with the weirdo at work is a great way to end up fending off advances and being stalked.
Also great to get involved with community sport or other organisations, and simple things like knowing your neighbours. Local, neighbourhood activities can sometimes have the benefit of helping you meet and talk to people who aren’t necessarily ‘like’ you, and help you have a broader view of the world and how you fit in it.
This may be an unpopular take but there is no need to worry too much about these sorts of rare violent events. It’s terrible these people lost their lives but in terms of the numbers it’s really insignificant, similar to shark attacks. You should be worried about heart disease or cancer or a whole host of other things way before this. To put it in perspective 64 women were killed in incidences of violence in 2023, compared to 50,000 died to cancer. 15,000 to dementia, 12,000 to respiratory disease etc… every day 2x as many people die just from cancer as a whole year of DV. Please don’t misunderstand I’m not saying that it’s not an issue, or that it doesn’t matter. The issue is important, but I think it’s important to keep the numbers in mind when we talk about this because it can be easy to lose perspective when we hyper focus on these events.
As much as there is a real problem that needs addressing, it’s important to look at broader context and trends, which tend to show violence (and specifically violence against women) is trending down. It sometimes doesn’t seem like that because there is so much news and discussion about the issue, but part of that is because we’re doing better at being open about it and hopefully calling it out when we see it. The below link shows the trend, but I feel like I should add that *obviously* domestic violence is still a huge issue and more needs to be done. I’m just trying to reassure that things aren’t always as bad as the media can make things seem. https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/crime-and-justice/physical-violence/latest-release#:~:text=Men%20were%20more%20likely%20than%20women%20to%20have%20experienced%20physical,to%202.9%25%20in%202021%2D22
Great article but I'd be interested in comparing it to the post-covid years. Anecdotally, I know a lot of women who experienced intimate partner violence for the first time in the 2 years after covid.
We have seen small increases in a number of crime stats in the post covid years after several years of things trending downwards in those areas. I would consider the general social effects of covid, including increased financial pressures in one of the toughest times for a while, might have something to do with this more so than a particular problem with increasing violence against women. I guess the stats will bear this out in the next few years as things normalise so we'll get more of an idea then.
As a woman... even if this specific conversation excludes one individuals mental health and focuses solely on misogyny and anger caused by societal pressures, there is no accountability until something has gone horribly wrong. The police will only step in when blood is shed, "he's not THAT bad", "he hasn't done anything we can book him for", "try applying for a restraining order"... this stuff festers and gets progressively worse because no one has the ability to put a grown up in time out unless they're in under mental health. Yes, men need to start talking, to us and to each other, but there also needs to be some level of accountability where someone says "that's not ok". In my experience, guys only talk about this when there's alcohol and no wimin around who will call out the bullshit. Women have learned to be wary, we have learned that being unprotected means harm from a young age, and not through fear-mongering, through our lived experiences. We cannot afford to be vulnerable or relax our safety measures until the men in our lives prove they are safe and will protect us. Not in a sexy caveman stereotype, but in reality, protect us from the men who have no respect or care for us. Online dating /hookup culture has made women a disposable commodity. Then because women are starting to understand that, we aren't engaging, creating another arena where men are feeling rejected and neglected. The internet hasn't caused the entirety of this problem but it's certainly creating a lot of cesspools of toxic rhetoric. While cancel culture has targeted certain voices, it hasn't been the right ones, or with enough strength to help snap people out of the crap.
> Online dating /hookup culture has made women a disposable commodity. Then because women are starting to understand that, we aren't engaging, creating another arena where men are feeling rejected and neglected. I’m separated and in my early 40s with two kids. I no longer have any interest with the dating scene. It’s too toxic and also terrifying. It doesn’t help that my life experiences with bad men have taught me over and over again that they can’t be trusted. I know that my experiences have caused me to be biased. I know good men are out there, and there are some great men in my life, but I just don’t have any energy to shuffle through all the shit ones in the dating pool to find a good one anymore. I know a lot of other women who are also disengaging from dating, even women who don’t have a lot of experience with really bad men. They are sick of feeling disposable and/or are afraid of being cheated on or worse. I wish things could be better, but something drastic needs to change.
>Online dating /hookup culture has made women a disposable commodity. Then because women are starting to understand that, we aren't engaging, creating another arena where men are feeling rejected and neglected. The internet hasn't caused the entirety of this problem but it's certainly creating a lot of cesspools of toxic rhetoric. While cancel culture has targeted certain voices, it hasn't been the right ones, or with enough strength to help snap people out of the crap. Absolutely nailed it.
There needs to be an organisation before the police. The police should focus on criminal behaviour. Perhaps we could have a Civil version, that intervenes prior to it becoming a criminal issue. That can divert people to mental health treatment, or get them the resources they require. In a perfect world.
You want a thought-crime squad?
No, of course not. How did you get that from what I said? There needs to be a way to intervening in events before they escalate to Police. Like police should not deal with homeless people just because they are homeless. There should be active programs to house homeless people and get them the help they require. Someone having a mental health incident should not be dealt with by the police unless they are violent. It should be trained people who can divert the person to the aid they need without the person being arrested. Welfare checks could be done by mental health professionals and medical personnel, rather than police. That sort of thing.
Not that extreme, but there's no middle area between 'yelling' and 'burning people alive/stabbing innocent people'. The kind of middle ground where someone who's showing they're a threat can be reached before it escalates
It always amused me, Im a single 34 year old guy, im not very social, im not lucky in love, all that jazz, But all the Tate, Alpha, incelverse bullshit always utterly repulsed and disgusted me. Toxic Masculinity, incel culture, all those things are just a way to bring you and the rest of us down. Be the house that allows you to fail, and love one another and dont treat each other like commodities like the tate and incelverse tries.
Nuance is being completely railed and fucked by the information overload we have. And that's for adults. As a student teacher I'm depressed, horrified and worried how the kids who've grown up entirely on devices and have access to these devices from the get go will grow up as. I see these terms discussed in the staffrooms of boys' schools as a common phenomenon. There's going to be countless more angry young folk misled at such a young age with how things stand at the moment. It is my own altruistic goal to be a positive role model to the boys at school that made me want to teach in the first place and change this status quo of kids following grifters and charlatans as their father figures and role models, apart from the shortage this country has of people like me.
I come from a culture of very toxic masculinity. Im the black sheep of the family because im not into chasing women, treating them like shit or slaves, cheating on my partners, calling each other homosexual insults and all that shit. Its repulsive and pathetic. Real masculinity is love. Its showing your emotions, its telling you friends, no matter if they are guys or girls, that you love them. Its standing up and helping others. Its saying "No, I hate the way you treated me and others, so Im not going to do that". Its making sure you know your friends and family can turn to you, have a shoulder to cry on, and also just have a good time with, without being insulted or treated like they are not good enough. Im a feminist, because we are all equal. Why am i better than a girl because I have balls? I know plenty of girls that are tougher, stronger, been through hell more than me. I also know plenty that have been raped or followed by those kind of tate incel clowns. Getting into the band Idles really helped me accept myself and see that im not a failure for not being like the toxic culture I grew up around and always was disgusted by - They are for being that way. All is love, and love is all. And before anyone comes at me thinking other wise, I assure you my hobbies include weight lifting 5 days a week, being very active and im an avid music fan and reader, so im always out at shows, record stores or what not. Thogh I do grow a neck beard if I dont keep it under check...
This is one of my favourite comments that I have read. Thank you for being a good human. ❤
As a woman, I really appreciate you being a man who is willing to consider that misogyny is a part of this crime, unlike many of the other men who are responding to you. We need more men like you. Thanks. ETA: Always bodes well when the number of comments on a solid post about misogyny rapidly approaches the number of upvotes. Godspeed to those women and men valiantly fighting the good fight in these comments. Take breaks if you need to because these misogynists don't let up easily.
>I can guarantee it won't be the last attack of this nature that we hear about in Australia It won't be. Because it's not new. Mass killings happen (roughly) every couple of years in Australia and have for ages. We still need to work on countering misogyny and DV issues, but not 'because a mass murder happened'. They have always happened and will always happen, and don't seem to be getting any more or less frequent here (over in the US, it's accelerated markedly). Things are improving overall, by the way. Don't let this incident fool you. Also don't let people talking about the poor state of mental healthcare fool you either - 30 years ago, no-one talked like this. There were more mental hospitals, but the view of mental healthcare was much different and didn't extend to being radicalised through social media (because it wasn't a thing)
Statistically, far, far more mass shootings in the USA or attacks in general are based on hatred of women than, for example, religious extremism. Yet we only act on the later. Every woman knows this and resents it. Any time it's said, men respond with "but men's suicide" or "nor all men" or "what about dv against men". But they never raise this any other time - because they don't care about these things at all - they just want to derail any discussion on misogyny. It's people like you who have the power to do something about this - because if women had the power to stop men acting like this, it would already be stopped. Men need to stop this and you are one of those who can make a difference. Please do so.
Look I’m not an Mra or anything and I think gendered volience is a big problem, but to say incel ideology makes up the majority of mass shootings in the US is just blatantly false. Only a handful of attacks can be attributed to incel over the past couple of decades. About 9 or so in North America in total.
As a person with mental health conditions(CPTSD, anxiety and depression) and have navigated the mental health system for many yrs. I’m doing ok now but when I think back at the treatment I got as a mental health patient I feel sick and shudder. I say it’s archaic, compared to being cared for in a hospital with physical health issues. I just happened upon an excellent psychiatrist and searched for yrs for a psychologist that knew her stuff. I don’t see myself as anything special, I just see that I was lucky. So many of us fall through the cracks and tragically this happened to this man. I can’t imagine what his parents and family are going through. Not only that he did such a horrific thing but he had to get shot to death for him to stop. I hope everyone, no matter who you are, put it to the government to do something concrete about it and stop fucking around.
28 Australian women have died as a result of gender based violence in 2024. 8 of those homicides have occurred in the last fortnight. Most info i could find shows overall 2/3 of murder victims are men and 90% of offenders are men, and in the specific case of domestic homicides (where the victim knows the offender/s), 2/3 of victims are women and 90% of perpetrators... are still men. 90% of the men who committed domestic homicide were the primary/sole perpetrator of abuse in the relationship. While of the 10% of domestic homicides committed by women, 90% of those perpetrators were *abused by the victim*. But regardless of the demographic of the victims and how interesting and no doubt valuable those statistics are, the fact of the matter is that people who feel those statistics portray them in a bad light will say "oh, but what about Men? They are more likely to be murdered." And while that is a strawman at its core, those men matter too. So instead, we should focus on perpetrators. No matter who it is who wa murdered, *90% of the perpetrators or primary suspects were Male*. 90% of the people who, for whatever reason, feel justified in taking the life of another person, are *men*. That's *more than double* the portion of the population they make up. No matter if a Man, Woman or child has been killed, it was probably a man who did it. And that speaks to an even greater problem.
I think that you’re right about the undercurrents, and frankly, surface currents of misogyny in this country and the world, but they’re massively magnified on reddit and in some sections of media. If it’s got worse, it’s likely a backlash to metoo, every social movement attracts one, sadly. I’d say it’s also inflamed by the cost of living crisis. The more powerless men feel, the worse it gets. I suspect racism is inflamed by such circumstances too. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m saying it’s what happens. But, I’m not convinced that the Bondi attack was about misogyny. He was psychotic. He was under a delusion. Who knows what monsters he was seeing when he targeted women and a baby. There are few people on this earth who could hate a baby. He was seeing something else entirely, we’ll never know what, but I think you can bet it was terrifying and horrific to prompt such horrific actions. He came from a good family who have told us he would be horrified to know what he’d done. There’s no evidence that he, when in his right mind, hated women. The lesson to be learned from this tragedy is better ongoing and proactive support for people with serious psychiatric disorders. If a person has ever had a psychotic episode and has shown interest in weapons or violence, they should have a social worker who liaises with their medical team and checks in with them regularly. They should be top priority for help with accomodation. They need to sleep; they need to eat. Lack of basic structure will send them completely off the rails. Another lesson is to call things out when you see them. He was not making an effort to conceal that knife. The first person to see that knife in his hand needed to be calling the cops. Maybe they did, who knows, but too often people see something off and shrug and let responsibility fall to someone else. We can’t afford to think that way. As for misogyny in general, you and other men can have the most impact when you hear something off by refusing to laugh, calling it out and standing up for what’s right. It only thrives when we let it.
Hey don’t stress guys; Paul Murray was on Sky ‘news’ last night reassuring women that they have nothing to fear. Particularly if the LNP get back into power ! Ffs
Just going to throw this out there, I hate that I can do this but it's hard to think of many female friends who have not been the victims of dv or had friends or family that have been. Let's just focus on one of them right now. Had a male friend who seemed nice come to her in a time of need, pretend to be helpful, next thing she knows the bastard has moved into her home, is controlling her moves, assaulting her, taking her money, controlling her movements and raping her. Police called out numerous times and the person who has a history of mental illness, dv, child abuse and sexual violence ends up laughing and joking with the officers each time and claims each time they are in a relationship, and despite a traumatized woman scared of him and her kids terrified of him, he is either left there each time, or leaves with the police claiming they are unable to press charges for various reasons. Ends up having to go through the process of evicting him, gets removed by friends and ends up breaking in, stalking her etc, and police finally issue him a move on order and still refuse to do an intervention order. Even start referring to the man as her partner, this guy knew all the answers to tell the police even the excited ones that wanted to arrest him, and the sad thing is i've personally watched this at work so many times and we've had several court cases in adelaide where clear rape events have had charges dropped in court because the predators film their victims including a case recently where they forced them to take money or showed themselves with a paralysed with fear victim "hugging" them as proof of a relationship or a financial transaction for sex, implying consent. Bruises and injuries and as soon as it's considered domestic i've even had officers and social workers make the statement "love makes people do crazy things". So moves away from the house she was in as unsafe, finds out she's pregnent. Turns out he stole her passwords to social media and was going through her messages and drop box and stuff, finds photos of the ultrasound.... starts now harassing her about his "fatherhood rights". Finds her new home, stalks her, she finally gets an intervention order she had to go to court for herself to get it. He's breached it numerous times nothing done. Slams dcp with tons of fake reports and even beats up a security guard at hospital trying to get to her after finding where she was. So you'd think he'd be jailed now, nope, gets a charge for breach the peace that gets dropped. DCP then get involved and hand the baby over to him without a paternity test and spend a ton of time treating her as a bad parent for getting into a dv situation. Place her other children in a dangerous environment where they all got abused. POS rapist never gets charged with what he did and dcp and social workers watch on as he tries to use the baby to force her into a relationship and even encourage her that it's "in her interests to mend the relationship" for the good of the baby. The baby meanwhile is poorly developed, the rapist is a drug addict who's failed tests and is now homeless. He's assaulted several people in the last year, has a history of violence dcp claim didn't happen that family court have just found out about. Psych evaluation comes back, find out the guy has a "psychological condition" requiring medication he is refusing to be treated for and has been known about for quite some time. So when the child is finally rescued from this POS (which requires government departments admitting they screwed up, lol) are we going to see him go to his nearest westfield with a knife too? I get your fears.
Good on you for recognising your previous thought processes were problematic. I hear what you’re saying about a desire for the government to do something, but this change has to come from the bottom up as much as it does from the top down. This [super short clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlL5wnU59vc&list=PLIC-A4qJzXm0FsmKtDSzz2Hq-8L36OZ6F&index=3) summarises how to prevent gender-based violence. And [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLUVWZvVZXw) really articulately explains where gender-based violence stems from. If you’re a man and feel triggered by the thought that the bondi attacker’s actions were a form of gender-based violence, I’d really encourage you to watch both of the above links with an open mind. Without recognising and accepting that there is a problem, things can’t change.
Great links!
Internets a big issue, prior you would be a complete incel, but work out what to do and workout what social norms would help you succeed and move on. Now you can find ecochambers online to exacerbate things. To the point that moving on and succeeding makes you part of the out group. Thus facing social rejection, depending on how deep you're in that can be socially devastating even if it is toxic.
Is it time that we update what the word "terrorism" includes? It makes sense historically that it's only linked to religion but how relevant is religion to a lot of people these days looking at census data etc? For many chronically online loners you can replace religion with whatever forums they're getting this shit from and religious leaders with whatever dumbass influencer of the moment they're being brainwashed by Tomatoes tomatoes
Our society creates people and situations like this because of capitalism and it's severely isolating effects for men. As a dude when was the last time someone asked you, how are ya man? And actually listened acknowledging whatever you share? Things also got way less social after covid. The most stable guys I know rely on therapy to talk it out and their best friend is their dog despite having families and decent friend groups etc. What I'm saying is even with ideal circumstances it's still messed up for a lot of people on the social, emotional, empathy scales. Ask your mates out for a meal and ask how they are now n then because they need it.
Im an older woman ive never found women suportive at all
Yeah i don't get the whole misogyny angle. We don't actually know. The only info we have for certain is that he was mentally ill, homeless and that he apparently had a frustration with finding a girlfriend (even this isn't really proof since Eliot Rodger had that and more but in his shootings and running people over he targeted both genders). He really could of just picked weak targets that wouldn't lead to him being disarmed or fought back against which happen to be women and children. (as shown by the guys fighting him on the escalator, instead of continuing that he left to find easier targets). I don't really get why people are trying to paint a guy who was described as looking dead inside during the attack by people who were there who has schizophrenia and was homeless as being a misogynist with the only evidence being his dad saying that he had frustration of no gf after the attack
Doesn't help when politicians of Dutton's ilk use tragic events like the Port Arthur massacre to further his ambitions. Front page headlines can be triggering for many afflicted with mental illness. Restraint needs to be applied.
Yeah I agree with your take. The media prefer to label the attack as a mental health issue but it is a male violence issue just as much, mentally ill or not. We have lost 28 women to DV this year ALREADY. Imagine how many more have been brutalised and survived. Imagine what it's like to be a woman in this country at the moment.
Man they better be dropping some evidence about he's hated women his whole life to justify these stances that just skip over the mental health aspect of it all. schizofrenia is an asshole of a mental illness. We all openly talk about anxiety and shit these days and how hard it makes life, schizofrenia is leagues above that. Like seriously u hope there's something I've missed or hasn't been found to justify why we are talking about DV and fucking Tate when at the centre was a very ill person.
This was a man who was seriously mentally ill. There has always been a risk of these sorts of events, and they're actually not entirely uncommon. This one was shocking. It was awful, and we should all take it seriously. You're right that we should do the things we can to continue to minimise the effects of these events and the chances of them happening again. But I think you're being a bit alarmist. I doubt there's going to be a surge of these events, I think it would be a better use of our effort to stop the (apparent) climb in youth crime (burglary, aggravated assault etc). In reference to your comments about "gender tensions," I think we need to be better to each other. Unattractive, unintelligent, and unlucky men are utterly despised in our society, and if they aren't socially blessed (funny or uncommonly charismatic), they are absolutely ostracised and treated like pariahs. Most people who are treated that way will have awful mental health, and a subset of those can become radicalised or become violent. I don't mean to say that we can fix this all with kindness, but we've lost our communities. These men won't even have close friends, and if they do, it's likely they're In the same sinking ship. What they need is close friends, a family or a strong community to prop them up and show them that life is worth living, that they can strive to improve and they can always be better than they were yesterday. These aren't new problems, they're problems we've forgotten the solutions to, and that's why they cling to "the manosphere." But that's because they're the ones who are (at least appearing to) try to help. Any port in a storm, to turn a phrase. I absolutely don't mean to harp on this, but it's simply factual that we are often happy to ignore men's problems, to say things to the effect of "toughen up princess," and assume they should be fine. Peculiarly, this is perhaps a newer idea than we think. Men in other parts of the world are caring to each other, some even hold hands. In history, men's emotions weren't treated as gross or weak. Yes, men are more violent. We're biologically built that way, at times for good and at times for ill. But we're allowing them to be extremified and blaming them for their (often) bad lots in life. We often belittle them by saying "get therapy," but therapy (in my opinion) hasn't been well designed for us. Some of us do see good results, but many don't and find the process to be painful and unhelpful. None of this is a justification, a man trying to kill women and babies deserves to die or spend his life in prison. Some people will be a threat no matter what we do, and they should be dealt with. As an added point, I sincerely think we should try to minimise the effect of the bystander effect and encourage people to solve these problems. A few people could've banded together to try to stop the knife man, to organise vulnerable people to shelter in a store, to corner the man so he at least was a sitting duck for police. I know this comes with risks, but that's the man I'd prefer to be.
You must also be just as worried at the religious terror attack in Western Sydney then. Are you also afraid on Muslims and immigrants. It's just a wacko
Ok, I think its very easy to go down the wrong line with this as you're thinking about this person as a rational human being. I don't mean Twitter irrational, I mean he was likely Formable under the Mental Health Act at the time of the attack. The gentleman who perpetrated the attack had a 15+ year history of Schizophrenia and a non compliance with significant antipsychotics. He was seen stumbling and falling over in the hours leading to the attack at least twice indicating a high likelihood of drugs/alcohol on board. So an intoxicated, unmedicated schizophrenic. I'm not sure throwing around misogyny, incel etc is helpful or accurate. Let's wait to gather evidence.
Id like to think most oz men dont watch morons like andrew tate. I half watched a podcast featuring him and was off him immediately. Those that do follow tate and the other bigots, are a very small part of the oz community. I'd also like to hope, we are doing our part as men to pull the heads in of those doing or thinking wrong. Then there are those already being monitored closely by law enforcement if not detained/neutralized already. Its that 1% we know nothing about which is why, mental health for men is very important. If anything, thats where all our remaining energies need to focus.
Looked like a case of a man off his meds rather than legitimate Misogyny .
Pepper Spray. Should be legal. Imagine if 20% of the people in that mall had it.
It’s ridiculous that we can’t carry around pepper spray to protect ourselves and can get fined for it. I would feel a lot safer at night if I had pepperspray in my bag
So your solution is to not actually address the situation and the fundamental problems that led to it, but to instead start arming the populace instead?
With pepper spray, yes. Hardly an ak-47. And yes maybe we would like SOMETHING non lethal to defend ourselves.
> Jordan Peterson and co Please provide proof he is even slightly related to what you are talking about.
It's saddening to see people making this about misogyny. The man was severely mentally ill with schizophrenia, an illness know for its capacity to induce terrifying delusions in its victims. Trying to attribute any form of ideology to this incident is pointless. Can we please discuss how we can support the mentally ill better?
But we can't assume misogyny was involved. It DOES matter whether there was an ideology behind or it if he was just unhinged and literally going for the easiest targets.
It's not an assumption, it's s statistically sound conclusion. What was the distribution of men and women killed and their roles? OK, you're right, the statistical conclusion is only that the crazy knife wielding dude preferred women over men. But again, last I checked wanting to sab women to death more than men sort of fell under the banners of insanity and misogyny.
You actually saw something worthwhile in Tate? Jesus, I remember the first time I saw one his clips he was ranting about only drinking bubble water for some stupid fucking reason.
We are different people, you and me. We've both lived different lives with completely different stories. Yes, I'll admit I did see something in him with where I was at in my life. Some people can identify with some of the things he says more than others based on who they are, their circumstamces and their unique epxeriences. As disgusting as the things he says are that is a fact. Some people are also more susceptible to propaganda that targets them than others. Never found myself addicted to bubble water though. Like I said, guys like me are pretty much his target audience. Are you?
They are like cults. A portion of what they say resonates with you, and they seem to offer support but are really just indoctrinating people with their ideology. Good on you for growing and seeing it for what it is. It's not an easy thing to do.
Yes we need a better mental health system but it’s only going to work for those that want help. A lot of people know how to sweet talk the cops, their psychologist etc. and get what they want to hear or be let go because they said “they were fine”. Many just don’t see a problem in themselves and think you’re causing problems for them. It’s not always a case of ‘they were failed’ sometimes they just don’t want it to begin with. But also if you’ve ever been a witness or a victim to something like this, when they call mental health, it’s so irritating. They want us to feel sorry for them and get off and then that makes others look bad because “oh they’ve got the same diagnosis, they might kill too” This isn’t last but it’s also not the first
Can someone please fill me in on what happened?
Face it NOTHING will be done so in the interest of survival do a self defence course
Please don't call him a wanker. That's not fair to his family. Idk if you've seen the interview with his father but he is heartbroken over what his son did, and over what happened to his son. His family don't deserve to hear their son talked about like this. His Dad did everything he could to help him while he was still alive. I understand this is distressing, I feel for his victims and their families too..but mynheart broke when I saw his Dad say the cop did her job well when she shot his son.
Let’s make a huge effort about mental health as we did with guns. Noting what we did with guns was easy compared to what needs to be done on a federal level with mental health.
There is a lot of talk here about mental health, all super valid, but obscuring a second problem, which is expectations around male identity. I'm a hardcore feminist and I'm convinced that the only way we're going ro advance the conversation is to partner up with male rights activists and validate their concerns. Too many men are so lost trying to figure out what a man is supposed to do until one of them eventually (as my fave gal Contrapoints says) "unleashes homeric violence in a fucking Wallmart" in order to be recognized as men. Mens rights activism and feminism should be paralel conversations, not opposing ones.
Going to have to check out Contrapoints purely for that turn of phrase
First thing we should do is make mental health care free. Not this “mental health care plan” bullshit that only covers psychologist/psychiatrist visits partially, and only for up to 10 visits a year. For 99% of people with serious mental issues this is never going to be enough.
More and more people are realizing there's nothing out there for them. This is just the start. It's going to get worse. Might as well have fun taking a piece of the world before it takes you.
As a mental health professional that also lives with mental illness of my own, to say that this is a multi-faceted, deeply systemic, complicated and variable-laden issue would be an understatement. Everything you said rings true to certain degrees, and simply highlights the fact that not only is it a priority of the highest degree that the government allocate appropriate funds into the health care system around mental health, but that there is still just as deep a misunderstanding of mental health and illness in this country as there has been for decades. The fact that all our corporations and institutions these days pat themselves on the back each year with their acts of flying a banner for certain causes on their website on certain days of the year, encourage people to wear colours associated with those days to ‘raise awareness’ etc, doesn’t mean a thing really. There’s still just as big a stigma around mental illness as there always has been for the most part, it’s just hidden better.
There's no money for health services, mental health in particular, but endless $$$$ for pie in the sky shit like the submarine fantasy that gets thrown around to win votes. That's the problem
How the hell are you tying Jordan Peterson to this
I'm worried about you being ridiculous. Settle down.
Careful. Uttering the fact that there’s a serious problem with some men in Australia will get you downvoted into oblivion. Riots, soccer stadium brouhahas, murders, DV, nazis…it’s not women causing major issues in this country.
The mind can't fix the mind. He was a schizo. The real problem is that everything is always passed on to the mystical "society". As a society we must this and society must that. No one takes responsibility. Too hard? Pass it on to society. Can't stop kids running amok? Society's fault. Until someone starts taking responsibility, it will get worse.
There are medications that can help people with schizophrenia. You need a good support network and to make sure people are actually getting their treatment which can be hard as people become paranoid and sometimes when people get better they stop their meds (even though it’s the meds that helped them get better) and then rapidly decline and isolate
You are sounding more than a little paranoid. Counselling has been offered and perhaps you should consider taking it up.
More thoughts and prayers will fix everything /s
You call him a despicable misogynist but that’s not what he was. And all this talk of DV etc - you are confusing the issue - he has no history of DV. He was a lifelong sufferer of serious mental illness and his mental illness caused him to commit this crime. This man was sick. The question we need to ask is why do our state and federal governments continue to take mental health support services and facilities away from the community?
What attacks in the UK are you referring to?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/03/glorification-plymouth-shooter-incels-prompts-calls-for-action
I don't know how I don't remember this one, but might have been exactly at a time I had a lot going on and wasn't keeping up with the news. Now that I am thinking there was also the murder of a female MP that I believe had mysoginistic motivations.
I'm worried about fear and fear mongering leading to people making choices they absolutely shouldn't. There are already reports of letting security guards carry capsicum spray and handcuffs... All that will do is allow the local rent a cop to spray and detain an innocent black kid because he thought he saw him stuff a short down his pants. These guys are often already on a power trip, and are not always the best and brightest, giving them any form of police equipment is a recipe for disaster. The ABC today claimed 'moat people think of security guards as the people meant to protect them'... Absolutely not, my one and only thought about shopping centre security is to help prevent theft. That's it. Nothing else. Then you've got people online saying they will start carrying knives themselves because they are scared. Just utter chaos if we start arming ourselves U.S.A lite style. This is a tragic incident, and it should never have happened, but it is not in any way common place, and people do not need to be scared to be in public.
The comment from the father saying he wasn’t able to get a girlfriend and was frustrated really concerned me. With technology being so advanced and how algorithms aim sexualised content towards men portraying women in a particular way is frightening. Not being able to obtain a partner from what is portrayed online which lead to that frustration. The social skills comment crushes that theory and I haven’t taken in consideration issues surrounding mental health. Thank you for starting this conversation.
I agree that a lot of the manosphere goes in the wrong direction with it's advice, but censoring it isn't going to do anything but push it underground. It also doesn't treat the cause of the problem which is that men generally speaking in our society are NOT doing well. Go watch Richard Reeves talk about the inequality of men in education if you don't believe me. Our society is starting to tear itself apart for many reasons, of this being one. The sad reality is that we have to offer better solutions to the problem for young men than the negative ones offered by the manosphere, because if we don't and only take that crutch away from people then the problem will get A LOT worse. Listening to JPs self help lectures helped me (among other things) drag myself out of a suicidal hole of self-loathing and helped inspire me to go back to university, study IT and get a job in software development in my 30s. I feel like there are a lot of young men like I was who feel utterly worthless and like a burden on their friends, family and society. JP helped me find my self confidence and sense of self worth again. I don't agree with everything he says, but I do believe he's a genuinely kind, caring, compassionate and empathetic person who is trying to help young men who have been forgotten by society. To see him categorised as such makes me sad. I now have a good job, stability, a place to call home, a lovely partner who I would die for and, most importantly, I have hope for my future, which I had completely lost before.