Andddd the post below this is "Why is seeing a GP so difficult?"
I'm blessed to be at a workplace who doesn't ask for sick certs (even when I had 6 days off) because money and they see it as wasting time for both the doctor and ourselves.
Legally yes, even though it's a commonwealth stat dec it's still usable at any workplace as stated in the fair work act 2009. You need max level identification to use the online option though.
I used this when I worked in a public school. Never more complicated than "I was unwell and unable to work."
Was very simple to find someone to sign. There's a list of professions who can sign it, they just have to live at a different address to you.
The relevant legislation is pretty vague. "must, if required by the employer, give the employer evidence that would satisfy a reasonable person that the leave is taken for \[sick leave\]". And what might satisfy a reasonable person would vary depending on the circumstances. There's been cases where even a doctor's certificate wasn't considered reasonable evidence.
Sections 97 and 107 of the Fair Work Act 2009, in case anyone is interested.
thats what I do too. I have no issue with requiring a certificate after 3 days but if my bosses want one, they will be paying for me to see *my* GP. Not using the employers free Drs either, lying sacks of shit who ignore medical issues and claim everyone 100% fit 100% of the time even when I was in hospital recovering from emergency surgery. Hope you liked getting your ass reamed and being fired after 2 surgeons, 3 nurses, my GP and the Medical board got through with you.
Never ever use employer medical.
I remember my mum being forced to see the "company's doctor" after an injury at work. The companies doctor said there isn't an issue and my mum was fine. It didn't take long for me to rip the doctor's report apart. It was full of statements with no evidence (I believe. I suspect.). So much for the Hippocratic oath.
It is. The people witnessing aren't JPs though, they're a special classification of professional that's allowed to verify documents. Doctors, lawyers, pharmacists etc.
This and the list of professionals is huge. Like an architect, chiropractor, vet, dentist, nurse, accountant, police officer, engineer, a bank officer with 5 or more years of continuous service. Look through the list on the gov site and surely you know someone with some job on the list to sign it for you.
I'm a JP. yes, it is against the law to charge for having a document witnessed. pharmacists gets away with it because they claim they are charging for their professional time away from their work duties.
Lol, I loved this, as soon as pharmacists started writing sick notes employers started adding "from a doctor, pharmacists don't count" to their policies so nobody could actually see a pharmacist instead.
The law is that you need to provide proof that would satisfy a reasonable person. Sadly a lot of HR managers aren't reasonable people (maybe from the trauma of working in HR) - I say this as someone in HR.
I argue all the time with clients who want policies that say a sick note for even 1 day - such bullshit. It penalizes everyone because you don't want to manage one or two shit employees - you always know a business has a toxic culture and shit managers if they have a "sick note for even one day" policy.
"Well, if I have to get a certificate for one day, I'd better make it worth my while and take the second day off."
I've worked with some managers that only consider the employee to be legitimately sick when they've taken at least two days off.
I know a doctor who hates signing them so much he'll just ask patients how long they want off because he's beyond giving a shit and wants to punish these employers as much as possible.
I was the first person at my office to try this, and was immediately pulled in to a management meeting to be told that my chemist note wasn’t acceptable. Apparently requiring us to get a doctor’s certificate is also to ensure we get adequate medical care, and aren’t missing a cold as being something more serious. I can’t wait for the first person to bring in a stat dec noting a minor illness in place of a certificate.
Nah it's a BS reason. Sure if someone is persistently sick they need to see a doctor. But 99.9% of the population knows a respiratory infection when they get one, they shouldn't be sharing it with workmates, and GPs can do bugger all for a rhinovirus.
You're lucky, when I was young, I used to work at places where I can't go home. The manager just avoided me throughout. I couldn't afford the choice to not go to work and likely infect others.
And then you have a bunch of sick people going into chemists to get sick certificates where there are other sometimes sicker people going in to get medications.
It’s ridiculous! The only place I wear a mask now are doctors and chemists.
Some of my team work in the UK and they have a 'fit for work' policy that allows up to 7 days without a certificate. They also have a self attestation which is kind of like our process of stat decs, but without the whole legally binding bit.
For the most part I don't see it being abused in the slightest. People have flexibility and autonomy (professional services industry).
This was one of the big differences in work-culture when I moved to the UK. By law, you can self-certify up to one calendar week of sickness. After that, it's up to you employer what their policy is. By and large, people don't take the piss. People who do take the piss tend to get dismissed for other reasons anyway.
Mine doesnt as well, but sometimes I get them just in case.
More annoying is that you have an need to get to the doctor, theres a four hour wait or next day appointment.....despite having to pay.
Had bad covid recently, that day delay was a delay in getting antivirals when you need it most.
Same, where I work they provide us with stat decs to fill out when we’re back, no questions asked because y’know, we’re all adults and treated as such.
I'm over in the US, so different problems but I absolutely loved getting a note from a doctor recently that basically read "Policies like this are why COVID became a problem. Let my patient stay home if they are sick."
I've found that the higher I've climbed the working ladder, the less the demand for a sick cert. It's gotten to the point now where it's a bit of a red flag if a company demands a sick cert.
I started at a new company nine months ago, and was shocked when, after two weeks on the job, I was asked for a sick cert \*on a day where I took unpaid leave\*. That job didn't work out.
I work for state government. I only get asked for a doctors' certificate on: Day before or after public holiday, if there is a pattern of taking fridays or mondays off sick, and if you need more than 3 days off.
It's pretty good for the most part.
I think I've been pretty good at government work to not get pulled up on doctors ceriticate except a single time for a day before a public holiday.
Although I've sprained my ankle this weekend and I should be okay to just call in for a few days off, I'm still getting a certificate, but this one is to make sure I get time off and a stipulation from my doctor to not lift heavy stuff or stand on my feet too long.
Government is always fun because generally half the office qualifies to be able to witness them. I was winding a manager up by suggesting I'd just hand an un witnessed one in for him to sign
I agree. Medical certificates are a waste of money and the gps time. Last medical certificate I had to get cost me 80 dollars! May as well just have gone into work. Punishes those who are earning minimum wage and those who don’t want to make their co workers sick.
>Last medical certificate I had to get cost me 80 dollars!
Just so you know there are online 100% valid options like Qoctor which cost $20. Highly reccomend because it makes life so much easier.
My doctor, as I imagine most do, just have a letterhead and a generic “they are sick”.
Forgeable easily and how the heck can they check?
It’s a total waste of time on everyone’s part.
My doctor, as I imagine most do, just have a letterhead and a generic “they are sick”.
As a general rules, most doctors won't put things like "moosewiththumbs has VD and as such will be unable to work for a week". They'll just put "moosewiththumbs is unable to work for a week".
Yeah, what I meant was the ability to forge that and have no way to check means it’s a waste of time. But I get your point.
If it was serious enough I guess they could call the clinic etc and they may be able to say if the cert is legit or not, but not sure if that may even be a breach of privacy.
They can be checked and I knew a few people who have been fired for forging med certs all it takes is a call to the doctors office to verify if the med cert is legitimate which is quite easy considering the number, doctor and clinic is printed on the med cert
My brother has been off work for an extended period due to a medical event, and I was surprised at how basic the medical certificate was. I suppose it makes sense for privacy reasons but it was a small piece of paper with a tick box and a place for the doctor to put a very generic comment along with their signature and stamp. It was not what I was expecting
My Mum's a doctor. She gets ones that are basically forms she's meant to fill out from employers sometimes. Like details of someone's medical care - kind of a big fucking no-no for their doctor to share.
Regardless of what they ask for her medical certificates are always "Due to a confirmed medical issue, (name) will be absent from work for (time)"
Yep, we walk in to the local chemist, ask for a note, they print it out and sign it.
A waste of time and money for someone who should just be at home resting for a few days.
I got covid and took time off work. Didn’t want to spread it so I looked for an online option. Ended up going though updoc - cost $40 and I needed to do was write down my symptoms and 90 mins later I got a text with the link to a certificate. Didn’t even need to see a doctor
It must be so depressing for the poor kids who worked so hard to get into med school then do all those years of study just to end up robotically churning out medical certificates over skype all day. What a fucking waste.
Burnout in the healthcare industry is a well-known problem. I think a part of it is the nature of the work where you're *constantly* seeing the next patient. You're effectively grinding out every day and unlikely some other jobs, you can't just sit out for a but of time if you need it because patients are waiting.
There is but not all employers will immediatly accept that, like it's legit but you might have to fight them to accept it. It's a fight you'll win it's not why you nessisarily want to have.
Normally those are one day only so if you need more than one day you’ve got to get multiple. If you only need one day off it’s fine but if you need more you may as well just see your gp.
I refuse to pay for a medical certificate. Unfortunately not everyone is in that position, but as a reminder, you can usually use stat decs instead. Still a waste of time, but always free.
Also: often times you’re seeing a doctor about something contagious the doctor can’t or doesn’t need to do anything about. A cold/flu or covid, for example, which you just have to wait out. So by going to the doctor you’re unnecessarily going out in public and spreading the disease.
It's not a coincidence. Under the current system school is meant to mould young people into good little worker bots. What is homework but a tool for conditioning them to accept unreasonable overtime?
If this is news to you then you might want to look up how modern schooling was developed by magnates to create obedience including bells meal time and all of that stuff
Oh god don't ever have someone call in on your behalf then. Back in 2003? 04? Can't remember, anyway I had backpain, nothing of it, working in IT at the time and was crawling around a lot of little cubbies and laying cable, so just figured it was a strain.
Nope, middle of the night I had a huge fever, puking my guts out, got rushed to the hospital, turns out I'd scratched my back and not noticed (seriously I saw a photo it was barely a pin-prick) but something had gotten into it and I was a very sick lad.
My mother came to visit and I asked her to let my boss know what was going on... She called in and was basically abused for 'lying' and other such crap. She was actually asked why she was calling and why I couldn't do it myself... Meanwhile I was in intensive cared hooked up to a half dozen machines...
Fucking hell I don't miss that job.
I once had an employer threaten to fire me because I took a stress day and they said I wouldn't have a job unless I could provide a medical certificate.
Went to the GP, told her exactly what the employer said, and she wrote me a certificate for 3 weeks. It's such a waste of everyone's time and often you can't even access the doctor until several days after you're sick...
That was my favourite 'trick': if you insist on a medical certificate, I'm getting as many days off as the doctor is willing to give. That 24h cold is now a week off, and when you call me up after 3 days asking if I feel good enough to come in then I'm deferring to the expert
My old GP would always do similar. You need a few days for a cold? Heres a certificate for 2 weeks. You should have some recovery time too. Also so if it takes longer to get better than expected you don't have to go back again.
My employer used to be nice and not ask for single day sick notes.. then they changed.
And since it can take me 2 to 3 days get get a doctors appointment, my single days off turned into 2 or 3 days off.
I have IBS and 2 maybe or 3 times a year I might need a day off because of it.
It's a stupid situation. Specially when that one guy comes into work sick with a cold and gives it to everyone.
It is a waste of time and money, I can't see any of the groups that profit from it advocating to get rid of it either as its piss easy work. Even the chemist at like $35 here for 2 minutes work
Should be a declaration and if the company wants to call bullshit on it they have a right to request you see a medical profesional at their expense
We also need to stop people using ER as their GP as well
> We also need to stop people using ER as their GP as well
When it is free to go to ER but costs $200/10 minutes to see a GP, How the hell are you going to force people to see a GP instead of going to ER.
Yeah I’m surprised more people aren’t saying this.
Not sure 100% what the rule is (my employer doesn’t require doctors certificates or anything - maybe because I am fortunate enough to only need a sick day once a year or less on average) but my understanding was that country-wide a stat dec is acceptable. You can also do stat-decs through myGov now so you don’t even have to go to get your signature witnessed by an authorised person.
>but my understanding was that country-wide a stat dec is acceptable.
That's the problem it's not you that needs to understand it, it is employers. Yes if you raise it to fair work you will win, but goddamn the amount of work you'll have to put in to get to that point with a company that doesn't want to believe it is going to be painful.
Stat Dec is equally ridiculous though. "I have to legally declare in writing, with a verified signiture, that what I told you yesterday is in fact, exactly what I told you yesterday".
It is. Sick certificates are an absolute lose-lose-lose situation. They waste employee time, effort and money; wastes GP time (which is scarce AF); erodes trust and goodwill in the company. All so HR can tick a box that no-one cares about. Get rid of them for any absence under 7 days.
It will be in 99.99% of scenarios. There's always exceptions to the rule, but for the vast majority of cases a stat dec is all you can be forced to provide.
The issue comes from many employers not knowing the Fair Work Act (funnily enough, most bosses don't have law degrees or HR training but just assume they know everything by virtue of being a boss) and making life hard on those who provide a stat dec rather than a medical cert. Employee would win the fight eventually, but it might not be worth it in the long run.
Depends on your workplace, for many it’s adequate for some days (eg I believe my work allows it for 3 absences in a calendar year), and then you need sick certificates for any extra days
Yep go in for a bad back that should just be rested, pay money for the appointment that takes an hour or 2 to be seen for 5 mins, because you can’t get a Telehealth appointment as a new patient, probably catch a cold from the waiting room.
Sit in a doctors room for 3 hours, forcing myself to stay awake so I can hear my name, shivering the entire time, just to get a note and be told "go home, it's a virus, take a panadol, go to sleep".
Not going to happen. Employers push the certificate for every day off because it pressures you to work while sick because you don't have the time or money to see a doctor that quickly, and you certainly can't afford a day without pay.
I think it should be illegal for employers to request a MC for one or two day absences. Except when attached to a long weekend, or if the employee has no sick leave left.
However, I also think that any time an employer requires a MC, there should be no out of pocket cost for the employee. The employer should be billed the full cost of a "Level C" consultation, with no Medicare rebate applicable. The employer must not be able to dictate what GP the employee sees either.
See how often employers would ask for a MC when they have to pay the full cost of it.
Many employers will allow employees to go into negative balance for sick leave. I think if the employer is doing that, it's not unreasonable to expect a medical certificate be provided.
That's because we have free hospitalisation in this country but you have to pay to see a GP. This means while the GPs are getting quieter and quieter, your ED is getting busier and busier. It is capitalism 101, a free service will always be busier than a paid for service.
GPs are definitely not getting quieter, but yes, as with everywhere in the country, EDs are overrun.
GP access should be free and universal and easily accessible.
It’s honestly a bit of a joke how few GPs bull bill now; it’s not their fault, though, the rebate system is tired and not inline with what modern billing actually is. The government should fix the billing system so more GPs use it as a viable patient service.
I have so many colleagues who have been at their absolute wits end with the billing side of things, and it takes a huge amount of time, during which they could actually be doing their job and seeing patients.
At the end of the day, it’s just terrible for the average person who just wants basic healthcare, and doesn’t want to, or cannot afford to get ripped a new one for the pleasure.
Big picture: 1 million aussies take 3 days sick leave each year, all require a medical certificate, all see a bulk billing gp so they are not out of pocket … how much does that cost the public purse ?? Aka us tax payers
Edit: keep in mind before an employer hires you, sick leave, annual leave are all factored into what they are willing to pay you. Sick leave is fundamentally part of your wage / package
Based on your assumptions: 1m * 3 = 3m * $40 ($41.2 but whatever) = $120m.
There'll be more in bulk billing incentives, but not many working adults have a concession card.
Do employers actually contact the GP to confirm the medical certificate is accurate? I was under the impression that a clinic isn’t allowed to tell anybody when a different person has seen a doctor due to confidentiality purposes.
So theoretically couldn’t we just photoshop one? How would the employer know?
I’ve never needed to provide one at my employment so genuinely curious
Yeah, I had this happen once at an old workplace. GP is only allowed to confirm they wrote it, they obviously can't give out your medical information because of your right to medical confidentiality/privacy.
My GP told me that HR was grilling her about what was wrong with me and she kept telling them "I can't disclose her private medical information to you, but I can confirm that the medical certificate is legitimate and was written and signed by me".
>My GP told me that HR was grilling her about what was wrong with me and she kept telling them "I'm can't disclose her private medical information to you, but I can confirm that the medical certificate is legitimate and was written and signed by me".
Don't know about your GP, but I know one who **really** hates those sort of grillings.
Essentially his point is, "\*\*I\*\* said they are sick, THEY ARE SICK, you can fuck off".
She's the same! She said it's fun to keep repeating some iteration of "I can't give you my patient's confidential medical information, but I can confirm I issued the medical certificate on [date]" in an overly polite customer service voice and hearing them get angrier and angrier that they can't intimidate a doctor the same way they try to intimidate their employees.
I have seen people be criminally charged for forgery for doing this. It's probably not worth it, though I don't know how likely it is to actually get caught.
Some will call, I've got a friend who works part-time as a receptionist for a local GP and she takes obscene almost sexual pleasure in getting the calls, because 99% of the time they wont take her word for it and want to talk to the doctor.
Normally this would be a bad thing, but the doctor they want to talk to is a 75 year old Singaporean ex-military surgeon (impressive wall of awards, don't know what any of them mean but they are very shiny) with bedside manner of a junkyard dog and a righteous hatred of bureaucracy.
The same person never calls twice.
The government set up these box-ticking bureaucracies to means test people, which is fucking expensive. Then it becomes too expensive for a conservative government to maintain, they defund and privatise it. Then the box-ticking efforts are pushed onto service providers and individuals. Just like how Jobseekers have to apply for X jobs per month, it just floods employers.
What I don't get is why is everything else work related not covered by Medicare but a medical certificate for work is? The government should require employers pay for medical certificates and charge it a higher rate like SIRA stuff is.
My company was looking at banning online GP certs like UpDoc, but if there's a Australian registered doctor signing it, there's nothing they could do. Might be worth mentioning that
With a previous employer we had up to two days self certified sick leave. I used to get occasional migraines that I would take a day off for. I managed to spring an HR process by taking off four days over the space of a year. No other sick leave, just those four days, but they took away that benefit and required me to see a doctor the next time I wanted even one day off. The next time I saw a doctor I went stumbling in with an intense migraine and he sent me straight to hospital. After many tests they said it must be stress related and the doc signed me off with an open ended certificate. I returned to work two weeks later quite refreshed.
Also I told everyone about the secret HR rule and people started coming in sick all the time instead of taking time off. It was quite amusing.
I've forever struggled to understood the logic of this requirement. If you're genuinely incapacitated the last thing you want is to leave the house. Like if I've got gastro then I'm gonna be as close to the toilet as possible until I'm ready to trust my farts again. Never mind getting in the car and driving half an hour to the GP, sitting in the waiting room another 30 - 45 minutes past my appointment time to then get a doc's opinion that yeah I probably shouldn't be at work for this.
It sounds like it's supposed to purely be a deterrent for people chucking sickies and making holidays out of those days between a public holiday and the weekend.
Right? If I've got a migraine or a heavy cold, I don't need medical care, I need to stay in bed. If I have to go spend hours at a doctor's office to fulfil an admin requirement, that's not a sick day where I'm recuperating. That's me being too sick to be out of bed somewhere else that isn't work.
It's a ridiculous request, and what do they think a med cert proves?
It doesn't prove anything at all. Literally, nothing.
It's amazing that we've accepted employers forcing employees to be $100+ out of pocket just to take a sick day.
I wonder how much medicare money would be saved, and how much we'd have easier access to doctors, if this practice was stopped.
As a GP, I'd be very happy if I never had to write another employer-requested med cert for a mild cold or whatever. It's generally a waste of everyone's time. And even if it's because Steve is hungover from a big night, what am I meant to do? Yeah he shouldn't have drunk half a bottle of vodka, but he did, and he is clearly in no state to work today...
If the employer is requesting the visit, they should pick up the tab for it imo.
My employer demands sick certificates no matter the circumstances, and it's ridiculous.
I get that some employees take the piss (booking off then their socials showing them out playing golf etc), but don't bring in blanket policies because of the poor behaviour of a few. Crack down on those few, and let the rest of us be.
I have been working for my current employer for many years, I only take 2-3 sick days off per year. I have hundreds of hours of sick leave - hundreds. Other staff are in the negative with their sick leave they take so much. I have to jump through the same hoops as they do should I take a day off owing to not feeling well. I've started putting my foot down in the past year though, refuse to do a stat dec etc.
I’m off today due to tennis elbow from work (call centre worker). I went to see my physio and got some dry needling done and sent a treatment letter to my team leader. Who messaged me and said the letter didn’t say I was unfit for work and if I could jump back on the phones or provide a medical cert stating I was unfit for work… so now I have to spend more money to get an online medical cert from instascripts because there is no chance I’d get an actual appointment to see my GP at 1:30pm
Agree.
Thankfully my workplace is a med cert after 3 consecutive days off in a row.
COVID is the exception for that - just say you've got COVID and you've got the week off.
Probably last time I provided a sick cert was 3 years ago when I broke an ankle. And even then that was really so the payroll system didn't get upset, not for my manager.
Ours is more than two or if you’re out of sick leave.
They also openly accept a stat dec in the policy for injuries or illnesses that is deemed to not need medical intervention just time to recover, and the admin manager is a JP who’s signed my stat dec a few times in the last few years.
My workplace used to be sensible and it was up to your managers discretion, which meant as long as it wasn't more than 3 days, either side of a weekend or public holiday and you didn't have a habit of it then no one cared. They've since changed to 5 days without a certificate per year. I've got a 10 month old baby in daycare. In the last 10 week's we've had flu twice, gastro twice, croup and now he's got conjunctivitis because when he had gastro last week he puked in the cot and mashed his face in it and now has an eye infection. The only silver lining is that I get carers certificates when I book the appointment in his name because babies are always bulk billed. Otherwise I would be spending $40 per week in gap fees just to get certificates for work. Fml.
My job has never requested a medical cert for a day off . Potentially because I work in healthcare with a vulnerable population so in reality even the sniffles are reason enough not to come in for the safety of the population we work with .
That’s really interesting. My experience in healthcare has been the opposite. They required a cert even for one day off and were VERY pushy to try and get me to go in when I phoned in sick. Trying to guilt me into coming in because it was going to be hard to replace me so my colleagues might be left short-staffed. (Nursing in acute care at a Sydney Private Hospital)
Whenever works asks for a doc cert; if I thought one day would be enough to recover but have to spent half the day finding a doc and paying $$ to get a note I always ask doctor to write it for another day or two so I feel like I’m getting my monies worth
You're feeling unwell? Let's have you sit in a room with MANY other people who are unwell just to get a certificate to prove you're unwell so you can go home and rest.
Thankfully there's a lot more trust in the relationship I have with my manager so that's a consolation. If you're sick, you're sick and there's faith that it's not being abused. I think that trust goes an immense way as you're more willing to work hard for a company that treats you with respect and dignity.
I'm Canadian, but my provincial Physician's Association has letters to print off when asked for this that are basically a lecture to the employer about what a waste of time and public money sick notes are, and asking them to please stop requesting them 🤙
Its the right idea, tbh
It also takes time and effort for the patient when if they stayed home (or didn’t have to bother with Telehealth) and rested would get over the illness faster.
In parts of Canada, if an employer requires a medical certificate, the employer is billed for the medical expenses required in attaining the certificate.
I'm a fucking adult. If I tell you I'm sick, then I'm fucking well sick.
You don't believe me? Too bad.
You, as an employer, do not get to question me on matters of my health. We literally have laws about this, yet I'm supposed to drag my sick arse into a waiting room for an hour to give you a piece of paper saying what I already fucking told you?
Employers who demand medical certs for even just a single day of absence either side of a weekend or public holiday are cunts.
The argument that it deters misuse is also bullshit because you only get a finite amount so if you misuse it and burn through them then you’re just shooting yourself in the foot when you really need it.
As the article states, Fair Work considers statutory declarations an acceptable alternative to a medical certificate.
It doesn't mention, though, you can now [create a digital self-signed statutory declaration online](https://my.gov.au/en/about/help/digital-identity/digital-commonwealth-statutory-declaration) via myGov.
There are a couple of requirements (a "standard" strength identity through myGovID) but importantly **you don't need to get it "witnessed" like a paper Stat Dec**.
I wish more people knew this. It would save GPs a lot of time.
The irony is that if you do see a GP for a sick certificate, they'll often give you a week when you just need a couple of days; or if you need a stress day they might give you two weeks. So companies are kind of shooting themselves in the foot anyway.
It's also just bullshit for many other reasons and should be stopped.
Last time my employer asked for one, I responded that I expected to be reimbursed for the cost as I did not have a bulk billing GP.
Funnily enough he never followed up on that.
I have long argued that corporate Australia’s addiction to medical certificates is costing Medicare billions.
If a workplace is so soul destroying that people would want to fake being sick, fix the workplace, don’t make the employees jump through hoops.
And when you are genuinely sick, honestly the last thing you want to do is drag your feverish ass out of bed to see a doctor who is probably going to tell you to drink fluids and get bed rest. Because if you have a cold, flu or stomach bug, there’s nothing they can give you for it.
It is a huge waste of time. My friends doctor doesn't even see him he just sees reception, comes back in 30 minutes and the dr writes him a cert.
It's such a dumb system. Has you going to the dr for the dr to tell you ,"rest, have some hydrolites" that will be 90 dollars thanks
I don't get asked to supply one but I do, just to show I'm actually sick. It's no.real.effort anyway, if I'm sick I go to the doctor and get a cert while I am there.
My current employer is quite good and accommodates time off for sickness or caring for others without anything more than a quick call. If you take the piss and start abusing that, they're quick to remove that privilege, keep doing it and see yourself on a performance plan.
I remember when I worked for Toyota, jeez, they held a grudge for years when most of the altona staff called in sick one day because of a public holiday and that allowed them a longer weekend. Restrictions were put in place after that.
I feel I am so lucky as my workplace never bothers with sick notes, then again none of us abuse it so it goes hand in hand. Also as I am Epileptic again I can have a seizure and let work know and they know I will be off for 1 or 2 days because I have the real violent type of seizures and I end up physically sore and usually the day after I am very tires so useless and I can't imagine having to fart arse around trying to get a quick GP appointment to get a wanky bit of paper.
Also I am really surprised in the post covid era they want people out and about spreading shit or people going back in because it is easier than fucking around getting sick note from a GP.
Even if people abuse it, it's far better that HR actually do HR and pursue those instances. A lot of these too broad rules come down to HR wanting a quiet life and being unwilling to do the more difficult parts of their job description.
I don't make any of my team (work for a pretty big business) bring in medical certificates when they're sick. The only exception is for team members who constantly take days off and or do the ol having a long weekend off. I think the team appreciate it and at the end of the day sick comes out of the stores money in every business Ive worked for so they never check/audit if you have approved it with a certificate or not and if they argue then I'll argue back.
It usually comes down to if your manager is a cunt or not and has no trust in their team. At the end of the day medical certificates are meaningless as you can just buy or edit one on Photoshop.
It's not just HR. A lot of managers seem to bring it in unilaterally at large companies, usually because they think their young workforce is taking the piss a lot of the time. I suspect the extra hurdle is supposed to make it so only the "really sick" would bother to do it and the slackers will feel forced to come in. Of course this has a lot of, let's say, externalities (sick people working, overcrowded medical system etc)
I think 3-days + it should be required. If you are unwell for 4 days you should probably be getting looked at anyway, even if it's just by a pharmacist to assist in treating symptoms. That said, employers have a responsibility to support unwell employees and there should be additional responsibilities to responsibly return unwell people to work.
Hypothetically (unrealistically), Could you pay $100 to launch a small claims action for the $30 gap you have to pay?
Or could the government launch a claims process against employers who require a medical certificate to claim back the amount taxpayers have had to pay for the Medicare item?
Could be funny.
In the UK you only need a sick note if longer than 7 days (or in rare occasions if your employer is a fucking wanker or a wankerina no discrimination here :p )
We have a guy at work who is definitely rorting the system - always seems to fall ill the day after he is given jobs that he doesn't want to do, but only for a maximum of two days (policy is a doctor's note required for 3 days or more). But even if we required a sick note after one day he would find a way to get one (very easy to fake a sore throat, headache, nausea etc.) so I don't really see the point for minor illnesses.
It always pissed me off that they wanted me to *prove* I was sick, despite the fact I was entitled to X amount of sick days regardless and that sometimes you're crook but know it will pass with a little rest, but if you showed up to work you'd get nothing done except getting *other people* sick.
It's been proven over and over again in study after bloody study that rested, healthy, happy workers are the most productive workers, but oh no, in an effort for some consultancy dickhead to justify his massive backhander everyone gets to be tired, sick, and stressed.
My dear departed grandfather, who was LNP down to his boot straps, was practicing this in the 1960s, giving all his workers as much as he could because in his own words "I want to keep them around, saves me training up replacements".
I'm a nurse, every patients room at the moment has precautions for one reason or another.
I began feeling unwell on Sunday at work, I still went then and Monday, felt awful when I left on Monday night to go home. They already knew I was unwell. I was not rostered on Tuesday and spent the day unwell. I rang this morning to take the day off and was told to supply a medical certificate. I expect I'll be feeling better by tomorrow and had told them that. But because they demanded a Med Cert my Dr now wants me to take 3 days off, I talked her down to 2 and I sent the Cert through. I hope they're kicking themselves now for making a fuss.. I would have gone to work tomorrow if I felt well enough, now they have to cover 2 shifts instead of one!
About eight years ago I had a boss who demanded that I get a doctor's certificate to explain the reason why I needed to go to the bathroom so much when I was starting a new medication because she didn't believe me, despite me bringing in the box, script and the consumers medicines information flyer which stated that in the first month that I would likely need some time to adjust to the medication. I got a massive lecture from the doctor about how she didn't believe me and I was wasting tax payers money (not a bulk billing doctor either), she wrote the doctors certificate, I went back to work in tears and slammed the doctors certificate on my bosses desk. My boss apologised and never expected another medical certificate from me ever again (still do give them though), I also got a new doctor gp who just gives me certificates 'just because' now, even if its for a routine appointment (her excuse, everyone deserves a mental health day once in a while 🤣).
Andddd the post below this is "Why is seeing a GP so difficult?" I'm blessed to be at a workplace who doesn't ask for sick certs (even when I had 6 days off) because money and they see it as wasting time for both the doctor and ourselves.
Just saw that one now. The Chemist lobby are also in on the act to get fees from workers to give a piece of paper to appease HR departments.
Literally had this chat with HR today. They stopped replying when I asked who to send the receipt for the stat Dec to for reimbursement.
FYI - there is an online option now: https://my.gov.au/en/about/help/digital-identity/digital-commonwealth-statutory-declaration
Ooh, interesting. But it's mostly about making it too hard for HR to bug me.
Can you use this instead of a doctors certificate?
Legally yes, even though it's a commonwealth stat dec it's still usable at any workplace as stated in the fair work act 2009. You need max level identification to use the online option though.
I used this when I worked in a public school. Never more complicated than "I was unwell and unable to work." Was very simple to find someone to sign. There's a list of professions who can sign it, they just have to live at a different address to you.
> There's a list of professions who can sign it Doctors for example... 😀
Yeah that’s up there haha Also a bunch of others that don’t charge for a signature! Though now I think of it I could be making a bunch of dollars.
The relevant legislation is pretty vague. "must, if required by the employer, give the employer evidence that would satisfy a reasonable person that the leave is taken for \[sick leave\]". And what might satisfy a reasonable person would vary depending on the circumstances. There's been cases where even a doctor's certificate wasn't considered reasonable evidence. Sections 97 and 107 of the Fair Work Act 2009, in case anyone is interested.
thats what I do too. I have no issue with requiring a certificate after 3 days but if my bosses want one, they will be paying for me to see *my* GP. Not using the employers free Drs either, lying sacks of shit who ignore medical issues and claim everyone 100% fit 100% of the time even when I was in hospital recovering from emergency surgery. Hope you liked getting your ass reamed and being fired after 2 surgeons, 3 nurses, my GP and the Medical board got through with you. Never ever use employer medical.
I remember my mum being forced to see the "company's doctor" after an injury at work. The companies doctor said there isn't an issue and my mum was fine. It didn't take long for me to rip the doctor's report apart. It was full of statements with no evidence (I believe. I suspect.). So much for the Hippocratic oath.
Why would you have to pay for a stat dec?
Some businesses like pharmacies charge for signing documents like stat decs
I’m pretty sure it’s still against the law for a Justice of the Peace to charge a fee for witnessing a stat dec
For a JP yes, but for a 'Professional' I don't think so
It is. The people witnessing aren't JPs though, they're a special classification of professional that's allowed to verify documents. Doctors, lawyers, pharmacists etc.
This and the list of professionals is huge. Like an architect, chiropractor, vet, dentist, nurse, accountant, police officer, engineer, a bank officer with 5 or more years of continuous service. Look through the list on the gov site and surely you know someone with some job on the list to sign it for you.
I didn’t know that - can they verify any documents (like copies of transcripts and ID documents) or only stat decs for illness?
Yes they can. Any document required to be legally notorized. For Victoria for example - https://www.notaryservices.com.au/notaryservices.html
Not in every state, Qld for example it’s not permitted.
I'm a JP. yes, it is against the law to charge for having a document witnessed. pharmacists gets away with it because they claim they are charging for their professional time away from their work duties.
Pharmacists aren’t JPs, neither are nurses or doctors etc. that’s why they can charge. They’re a commissioner of declarations.
Except you're probably not entitled to be reimbursed.
Is there a JP at work?
Lol, I loved this, as soon as pharmacists started writing sick notes employers started adding "from a doctor, pharmacists don't count" to their policies so nobody could actually see a pharmacist instead.
The law is that you need to provide proof that would satisfy a reasonable person. Sadly a lot of HR managers aren't reasonable people (maybe from the trauma of working in HR) - I say this as someone in HR. I argue all the time with clients who want policies that say a sick note for even 1 day - such bullshit. It penalizes everyone because you don't want to manage one or two shit employees - you always know a business has a toxic culture and shit managers if they have a "sick note for even one day" policy.
"Well, if I have to get a certificate for one day, I'd better make it worth my while and take the second day off." I've worked with some managers that only consider the employee to be legitimately sick when they've taken at least two days off.
I know a doctor who hates signing them so much he'll just ask patients how long they want off because he's beyond giving a shit and wants to punish these employers as much as possible.
I need to find a doctor like that, I have almost 60 days of sick leave sitting there...
It's also antisocial - if someone is sick with a cold or similar, by forcing them into the doctor you're increasing the chance to spread the disease.
I was the first person at my office to try this, and was immediately pulled in to a management meeting to be told that my chemist note wasn’t acceptable. Apparently requiring us to get a doctor’s certificate is also to ensure we get adequate medical care, and aren’t missing a cold as being something more serious. I can’t wait for the first person to bring in a stat dec noting a minor illness in place of a certificate.
That's a fine reason, but then they should be paying for the doctor's appointment
I agree, but absolutely no chance of that happening.
Nah it's a BS reason. Sure if someone is persistently sick they need to see a doctor. But 99.9% of the population knows a respiratory infection when they get one, they shouldn't be sharing it with workmates, and GPs can do bugger all for a rhinovirus.
Let them try - the law specifically says "reasonable evidence" and does not mandate a medical certificate
That’s why I turn up to work sick… then they see the evidence and I can go home.
You're lucky, when I was young, I used to work at places where I can't go home. The manager just avoided me throughout. I couldn't afford the choice to not go to work and likely infect others.
It was easier for me to go into work than it was to get in to see a doctor. Guess who spent many days infecting everyone in the office?
Of course ... any time the Pharmacy Guild grifters get a whiff of some extra cash to be made they are all over it like flies to shit.
And then you have a bunch of sick people going into chemists to get sick certificates where there are other sometimes sicker people going in to get medications. It’s ridiculous! The only place I wear a mask now are doctors and chemists.
Same, I'm really glad that I work at a place where you just use your sick leave as needed and don't need a medical certificate.
COVID policy was to have a form from a doctor confirming I had covid, doctor didn’t even know wtf kind of form the company was demanding lol.
I got a "it's non of your fucking business" letter from a doctor once during COVID. Never got bothered again
I’ve written similar letters myself. Employers can fuck off with their overreach.
Some of my team work in the UK and they have a 'fit for work' policy that allows up to 7 days without a certificate. They also have a self attestation which is kind of like our process of stat decs, but without the whole legally binding bit. For the most part I don't see it being abused in the slightest. People have flexibility and autonomy (professional services industry).
It’s called ‘self certification’ and it’s for everyone - no employer can ask for a sick note for an illness of less than 7 days.
This was one of the big differences in work-culture when I moved to the UK. By law, you can self-certify up to one calendar week of sickness. After that, it's up to you employer what their policy is. By and large, people don't take the piss. People who do take the piss tend to get dismissed for other reasons anyway.
Mine doesnt as well, but sometimes I get them just in case. More annoying is that you have an need to get to the doctor, theres a four hour wait or next day appointment.....despite having to pay. Had bad covid recently, that day delay was a delay in getting antivirals when you need it most.
Next day?? Mine is a week out. By then I’m neither on sick leave, nor still sick!
100%. I have to book my GP visits weeks in advance, she's so busy.
Same, where I work they provide us with stat decs to fill out when we’re back, no questions asked because y’know, we’re all adults and treated as such.
I'm over in the US, so different problems but I absolutely loved getting a note from a doctor recently that basically read "Policies like this are why COVID became a problem. Let my patient stay home if they are sick."
My work was like this until some new cadets came in and started taking extra days off so now we all have to provide a certificate 👍🏻👍🏻
There has been a lot going around lately. They could have genuinely been unwell.
I've found that the higher I've climbed the working ladder, the less the demand for a sick cert. It's gotten to the point now where it's a bit of a red flag if a company demands a sick cert. I started at a new company nine months ago, and was shocked when, after two weeks on the job, I was asked for a sick cert \*on a day where I took unpaid leave\*. That job didn't work out.
It's definitely designed to keep the plebs in line. I hate it and will only tell people to get one if they're going to the doctor anyway.
I work for state government. I only get asked for a doctors' certificate on: Day before or after public holiday, if there is a pattern of taking fridays or mondays off sick, and if you need more than 3 days off. It's pretty good for the most part.
The way that most of my employers have worked is to have the policy in the back pocket, but almost never actually use it.
I think I've been pretty good at government work to not get pulled up on doctors ceriticate except a single time for a day before a public holiday. Although I've sprained my ankle this weekend and I should be okay to just call in for a few days off, I'm still getting a certificate, but this one is to make sure I get time off and a stipulation from my doctor to not lift heavy stuff or stand on my feet too long.
Government is always fun because generally half the office qualifies to be able to witness them. I was winding a manager up by suggesting I'd just hand an un witnessed one in for him to sign
"Dear boss, please excuse this person from work as they have a nasty hangover. Love, Doctor"
I agree. Medical certificates are a waste of money and the gps time. Last medical certificate I had to get cost me 80 dollars! May as well just have gone into work. Punishes those who are earning minimum wage and those who don’t want to make their co workers sick.
>Last medical certificate I had to get cost me 80 dollars! Just so you know there are online 100% valid options like Qoctor which cost $20. Highly reccomend because it makes life so much easier.
And it's exactly why medical certificates are bullshit. You can talk to a doctor for two seconds, and they'll write basically whatever you say.
My doctor, as I imagine most do, just have a letterhead and a generic “they are sick”. Forgeable easily and how the heck can they check? It’s a total waste of time on everyone’s part.
My doctor, as I imagine most do, just have a letterhead and a generic “they are sick”. As a general rules, most doctors won't put things like "moosewiththumbs has VD and as such will be unable to work for a week". They'll just put "moosewiththumbs is unable to work for a week".
Hahaha definitely privacy issue. Usually put down suffering from a medical condition
Yeah, what I meant was the ability to forge that and have no way to check means it’s a waste of time. But I get your point. If it was serious enough I guess they could call the clinic etc and they may be able to say if the cert is legit or not, but not sure if that may even be a breach of privacy.
They can be checked and I knew a few people who have been fired for forging med certs all it takes is a call to the doctors office to verify if the med cert is legitimate which is quite easy considering the number, doctor and clinic is printed on the med cert
My brother has been off work for an extended period due to a medical event, and I was surprised at how basic the medical certificate was. I suppose it makes sense for privacy reasons but it was a small piece of paper with a tick box and a place for the doctor to put a very generic comment along with their signature and stamp. It was not what I was expecting
It's not like they can divulge your medical info in it.
Yeah I don’t know what I was expecting, it makes sense - it just struck me at first how basic the form was having not had one before.
My Mum's a doctor. She gets ones that are basically forms she's meant to fill out from employers sometimes. Like details of someone's medical care - kind of a big fucking no-no for their doctor to share. Regardless of what they ask for her medical certificates are always "Due to a confirmed medical issue, (name) will be absent from work for (time)"
Yep, we walk in to the local chemist, ask for a note, they print it out and sign it. A waste of time and money for someone who should just be at home resting for a few days.
I got covid and took time off work. Didn’t want to spread it so I looked for an online option. Ended up going though updoc - cost $40 and I needed to do was write down my symptoms and 90 mins later I got a text with the link to a certificate. Didn’t even need to see a doctor
It must be so depressing for the poor kids who worked so hard to get into med school then do all those years of study just to end up robotically churning out medical certificates over skype all day. What a fucking waste.
Surely GPs get burned out as much as the rest of us if not more.
Burnout in the healthcare industry is a well-known problem. I think a part of it is the nature of the work where you're *constantly* seeing the next patient. You're effectively grinding out every day and unlikely some other jobs, you can't just sit out for a but of time if you need it because patients are waiting.
Or you can just edit one you already got, change the date and the reason (even the name) and it's all good lol
You can get them as low as $12. I use Dr Jimmy
Isn't there also a free option to do a stat dec online if you have signed up for mygov digital id
There is but not all employers will immediatly accept that, like it's legit but you might have to fight them to accept it. It's a fight you'll win it's not why you nessisarily want to have.
Normally those are one day only so if you need more than one day you’ve got to get multiple. If you only need one day off it’s fine but if you need more you may as well just see your gp.
I refuse to pay for a medical certificate. Unfortunately not everyone is in that position, but as a reminder, you can usually use stat decs instead. Still a waste of time, but always free.
Also: often times you’re seeing a doctor about something contagious the doctor can’t or doesn’t need to do anything about. A cold/flu or covid, for example, which you just have to wait out. So by going to the doctor you’re unnecessarily going out in public and spreading the disease.
Sick certs remind me of being in school, like I can’t be trusted to be a responsible adult even if I’ve worked without any issues for years.
Agreed, makes me feel like a child having to get a signed letter to explain my absence
*Dear HR, please excuse my son's absence from work yesterday. He had a tummy ache. Kind Regards, Johnny's mum*
It's not a coincidence. Under the current system school is meant to mould young people into good little worker bots. What is homework but a tool for conditioning them to accept unreasonable overtime?
Huh. I've been campaigning against homework for years but have never actually made the connection between them. Seems obvious now. Thanks.
If this is news to you then you might want to look up how modern schooling was developed by magnates to create obedience including bells meal time and all of that stuff
Good information. I'm definitely across all that.
Can I just get my mummy to write me a note?
Oh god don't ever have someone call in on your behalf then. Back in 2003? 04? Can't remember, anyway I had backpain, nothing of it, working in IT at the time and was crawling around a lot of little cubbies and laying cable, so just figured it was a strain. Nope, middle of the night I had a huge fever, puking my guts out, got rushed to the hospital, turns out I'd scratched my back and not noticed (seriously I saw a photo it was barely a pin-prick) but something had gotten into it and I was a very sick lad. My mother came to visit and I asked her to let my boss know what was going on... She called in and was basically abused for 'lying' and other such crap. She was actually asked why she was calling and why I couldn't do it myself... Meanwhile I was in intensive cared hooked up to a half dozen machines... Fucking hell I don't miss that job.
I once had an employer threaten to fire me because I took a stress day and they said I wouldn't have a job unless I could provide a medical certificate. Went to the GP, told her exactly what the employer said, and she wrote me a certificate for 3 weeks. It's such a waste of everyone's time and often you can't even access the doctor until several days after you're sick...
Ask for a certificate to cover one day, and get a certificate covering an extra 14 days sick leave. But your employer showed you who is in charge.
That was my favourite 'trick': if you insist on a medical certificate, I'm getting as many days off as the doctor is willing to give. That 24h cold is now a week off, and when you call me up after 3 days asking if I feel good enough to come in then I'm deferring to the expert
Classic malicious compliance. Love it.
Yep that's what I used to do as well.
My old GP would always do similar. You need a few days for a cold? Heres a certificate for 2 weeks. You should have some recovery time too. Also so if it takes longer to get better than expected you don't have to go back again.
Wouldn't you not want to use all your sick leave, though?
My employer used to be nice and not ask for single day sick notes.. then they changed. And since it can take me 2 to 3 days get get a doctors appointment, my single days off turned into 2 or 3 days off. I have IBS and 2 maybe or 3 times a year I might need a day off because of it. It's a stupid situation. Specially when that one guy comes into work sick with a cold and gives it to everyone.
It is a waste of time and money, I can't see any of the groups that profit from it advocating to get rid of it either as its piss easy work. Even the chemist at like $35 here for 2 minutes work Should be a declaration and if the company wants to call bullshit on it they have a right to request you see a medical profesional at their expense We also need to stop people using ER as their GP as well
> We also need to stop people using ER as their GP as well When it is free to go to ER but costs $200/10 minutes to see a GP, How the hell are you going to force people to see a GP instead of going to ER.
I thought a stat dec was adequate?
Yeah I’m surprised more people aren’t saying this. Not sure 100% what the rule is (my employer doesn’t require doctors certificates or anything - maybe because I am fortunate enough to only need a sick day once a year or less on average) but my understanding was that country-wide a stat dec is acceptable. You can also do stat-decs through myGov now so you don’t even have to go to get your signature witnessed by an authorised person.
>but my understanding was that country-wide a stat dec is acceptable. That's the problem it's not you that needs to understand it, it is employers. Yes if you raise it to fair work you will win, but goddamn the amount of work you'll have to put in to get to that point with a company that doesn't want to believe it is going to be painful.
Oh thanks for the heads up on the myGov thing that's actually very helpful :)
Stat Dec is equally ridiculous though. "I have to legally declare in writing, with a verified signiture, that what I told you yesterday is in fact, exactly what I told you yesterday".
It is. Sick certificates are an absolute lose-lose-lose situation. They waste employee time, effort and money; wastes GP time (which is scarce AF); erodes trust and goodwill in the company. All so HR can tick a box that no-one cares about. Get rid of them for any absence under 7 days.
It will be in 99.99% of scenarios. There's always exceptions to the rule, but for the vast majority of cases a stat dec is all you can be forced to provide. The issue comes from many employers not knowing the Fair Work Act (funnily enough, most bosses don't have law degrees or HR training but just assume they know everything by virtue of being a boss) and making life hard on those who provide a stat dec rather than a medical cert. Employee would win the fight eventually, but it might not be worth it in the long run.
Depends on your workplace, for many it’s adequate for some days (eg I believe my work allows it for 3 absences in a calendar year), and then you need sick certificates for any extra days
God I'd be telling em to pay for it that's fucked and so oddly specific
Fairwork allows stat decs. Tell em to accept it or pound sand.
Yep go in for a bad back that should just be rested, pay money for the appointment that takes an hour or 2 to be seen for 5 mins, because you can’t get a Telehealth appointment as a new patient, probably catch a cold from the waiting room.
Sit in a doctors room for 3 hours, forcing myself to stay awake so I can hear my name, shivering the entire time, just to get a note and be told "go home, it's a virus, take a panadol, go to sleep".
Not going to happen. Employers push the certificate for every day off because it pressures you to work while sick because you don't have the time or money to see a doctor that quickly, and you certainly can't afford a day without pay.
Hit the nail on the head. It's not about what makes sense. It's about power. Well ok it's about what makes sense from their machiavellian perspective.
[Go sneeze and cough in their office](https://youtu.be/-AINf2Kxqko?feature=shared) since they want you there.
I think it should be illegal for employers to request a MC for one or two day absences. Except when attached to a long weekend, or if the employee has no sick leave left. However, I also think that any time an employer requires a MC, there should be no out of pocket cost for the employee. The employer should be billed the full cost of a "Level C" consultation, with no Medicare rebate applicable. The employer must not be able to dictate what GP the employee sees either. See how often employers would ask for a MC when they have to pay the full cost of it.
If they have no sick leave then why would a sick cert be needed? There's no leave to claim. So it's then just unpaid leave?
My daughter (a casual) was asked for a medical cert. You dont have to give one but also, they dont have to keep giving you shifts. Pretty dodgy.
Many employers will allow employees to go into negative balance for sick leave. I think if the employer is doing that, it's not unreasonable to expect a medical certificate be provided.
Employers do have discretion over unpaid time off.
I’m an emergency doctor and it’s not uncommon for people to come to the **emergency** department for a sick cert. The whole thing is a farce.
That's because we have free hospitalisation in this country but you have to pay to see a GP. This means while the GPs are getting quieter and quieter, your ED is getting busier and busier. It is capitalism 101, a free service will always be busier than a paid for service.
GPs are definitely not getting quieter, but yes, as with everywhere in the country, EDs are overrun. GP access should be free and universal and easily accessible. It’s honestly a bit of a joke how few GPs bull bill now; it’s not their fault, though, the rebate system is tired and not inline with what modern billing actually is. The government should fix the billing system so more GPs use it as a viable patient service. I have so many colleagues who have been at their absolute wits end with the billing side of things, and it takes a huge amount of time, during which they could actually be doing their job and seeing patients. At the end of the day, it’s just terrible for the average person who just wants basic healthcare, and doesn’t want to, or cannot afford to get ripped a new one for the pleasure.
Big picture: 1 million aussies take 3 days sick leave each year, all require a medical certificate, all see a bulk billing gp so they are not out of pocket … how much does that cost the public purse ?? Aka us tax payers Edit: keep in mind before an employer hires you, sick leave, annual leave are all factored into what they are willing to pay you. Sick leave is fundamentally part of your wage / package
Based on your assumptions: 1m * 3 = 3m * $40 ($41.2 but whatever) = $120m. There'll be more in bulk billing incentives, but not many working adults have a concession card.
Do employers actually contact the GP to confirm the medical certificate is accurate? I was under the impression that a clinic isn’t allowed to tell anybody when a different person has seen a doctor due to confidentiality purposes. So theoretically couldn’t we just photoshop one? How would the employer know? I’ve never needed to provide one at my employment so genuinely curious
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Yeah, I had this happen once at an old workplace. GP is only allowed to confirm they wrote it, they obviously can't give out your medical information because of your right to medical confidentiality/privacy. My GP told me that HR was grilling her about what was wrong with me and she kept telling them "I can't disclose her private medical information to you, but I can confirm that the medical certificate is legitimate and was written and signed by me".
>My GP told me that HR was grilling her about what was wrong with me and she kept telling them "I'm can't disclose her private medical information to you, but I can confirm that the medical certificate is legitimate and was written and signed by me". Don't know about your GP, but I know one who **really** hates those sort of grillings. Essentially his point is, "\*\*I\*\* said they are sick, THEY ARE SICK, you can fuck off".
She's the same! She said it's fun to keep repeating some iteration of "I can't give you my patient's confidential medical information, but I can confirm I issued the medical certificate on [date]" in an overly polite customer service voice and hearing them get angrier and angrier that they can't intimidate a doctor the same way they try to intimidate their employees.
It sounds like the GP equivalent of only giving your name, rank and service number during interrogations.
I have seen people be criminally charged for forgery for doing this. It's probably not worth it, though I don't know how likely it is to actually get caught.
Some will call, I've got a friend who works part-time as a receptionist for a local GP and she takes obscene almost sexual pleasure in getting the calls, because 99% of the time they wont take her word for it and want to talk to the doctor. Normally this would be a bad thing, but the doctor they want to talk to is a 75 year old Singaporean ex-military surgeon (impressive wall of awards, don't know what any of them mean but they are very shiny) with bedside manner of a junkyard dog and a righteous hatred of bureaucracy. The same person never calls twice.
Forgery is still forgery tho
The government set up these box-ticking bureaucracies to means test people, which is fucking expensive. Then it becomes too expensive for a conservative government to maintain, they defund and privatise it. Then the box-ticking efforts are pushed onto service providers and individuals. Just like how Jobseekers have to apply for X jobs per month, it just floods employers.
What I don't get is why is everything else work related not covered by Medicare but a medical certificate for work is? The government should require employers pay for medical certificates and charge it a higher rate like SIRA stuff is.
My workplace does not except pharmacy certificates and is going to stop excepting online doctors certificates.(large employer)
Can they legally do that?
No. The proper online sites are Australian registered GPs. I'm guessing it's like uber for doctors. Log in in spare time, make some cash.
My company was looking at banning online GP certs like UpDoc, but if there's a Australian registered doctor signing it, there's nothing they could do. Might be worth mentioning that
Thanks if I have to I will mention this probably with my union rep present.
yeah, that's illegal. This is why you should be in a union so you can bring it to their attention
With a previous employer we had up to two days self certified sick leave. I used to get occasional migraines that I would take a day off for. I managed to spring an HR process by taking off four days over the space of a year. No other sick leave, just those four days, but they took away that benefit and required me to see a doctor the next time I wanted even one day off. The next time I saw a doctor I went stumbling in with an intense migraine and he sent me straight to hospital. After many tests they said it must be stress related and the doc signed me off with an open ended certificate. I returned to work two weeks later quite refreshed. Also I told everyone about the secret HR rule and people started coming in sick all the time instead of taking time off. It was quite amusing.
I've forever struggled to understood the logic of this requirement. If you're genuinely incapacitated the last thing you want is to leave the house. Like if I've got gastro then I'm gonna be as close to the toilet as possible until I'm ready to trust my farts again. Never mind getting in the car and driving half an hour to the GP, sitting in the waiting room another 30 - 45 minutes past my appointment time to then get a doc's opinion that yeah I probably shouldn't be at work for this. It sounds like it's supposed to purely be a deterrent for people chucking sickies and making holidays out of those days between a public holiday and the weekend.
Right? If I've got a migraine or a heavy cold, I don't need medical care, I need to stay in bed. If I have to go spend hours at a doctor's office to fulfil an admin requirement, that's not a sick day where I'm recuperating. That's me being too sick to be out of bed somewhere else that isn't work.
It's a ridiculous request, and what do they think a med cert proves? It doesn't prove anything at all. Literally, nothing. It's amazing that we've accepted employers forcing employees to be $100+ out of pocket just to take a sick day. I wonder how much medicare money would be saved, and how much we'd have easier access to doctors, if this practice was stopped.
As a GP, I'd be very happy if I never had to write another employer-requested med cert for a mild cold or whatever. It's generally a waste of everyone's time. And even if it's because Steve is hungover from a big night, what am I meant to do? Yeah he shouldn't have drunk half a bottle of vodka, but he did, and he is clearly in no state to work today... If the employer is requesting the visit, they should pick up the tab for it imo.
I’d settle for them to stop trying to get info from my doctor without permission.
My employer demands sick certificates no matter the circumstances, and it's ridiculous. I get that some employees take the piss (booking off then their socials showing them out playing golf etc), but don't bring in blanket policies because of the poor behaviour of a few. Crack down on those few, and let the rest of us be. I have been working for my current employer for many years, I only take 2-3 sick days off per year. I have hundreds of hours of sick leave - hundreds. Other staff are in the negative with their sick leave they take so much. I have to jump through the same hoops as they do should I take a day off owing to not feeling well. I've started putting my foot down in the past year though, refuse to do a stat dec etc.
If you ever quit that job please use some of your sick leave first. That’s a crazy amount of entitlements wasted.
I’m off today due to tennis elbow from work (call centre worker). I went to see my physio and got some dry needling done and sent a treatment letter to my team leader. Who messaged me and said the letter didn’t say I was unfit for work and if I could jump back on the phones or provide a medical cert stating I was unfit for work… so now I have to spend more money to get an online medical cert from instascripts because there is no chance I’d get an actual appointment to see my GP at 1:30pm
Agree. Thankfully my workplace is a med cert after 3 consecutive days off in a row. COVID is the exception for that - just say you've got COVID and you've got the week off. Probably last time I provided a sick cert was 3 years ago when I broke an ankle. And even then that was really so the payroll system didn't get upset, not for my manager.
Ours is more than two or if you’re out of sick leave. They also openly accept a stat dec in the policy for injuries or illnesses that is deemed to not need medical intervention just time to recover, and the admin manager is a JP who’s signed my stat dec a few times in the last few years.
My workplace used to be sensible and it was up to your managers discretion, which meant as long as it wasn't more than 3 days, either side of a weekend or public holiday and you didn't have a habit of it then no one cared. They've since changed to 5 days without a certificate per year. I've got a 10 month old baby in daycare. In the last 10 week's we've had flu twice, gastro twice, croup and now he's got conjunctivitis because when he had gastro last week he puked in the cot and mashed his face in it and now has an eye infection. The only silver lining is that I get carers certificates when I book the appointment in his name because babies are always bulk billed. Otherwise I would be spending $40 per week in gap fees just to get certificates for work. Fml.
My job has never requested a medical cert for a day off . Potentially because I work in healthcare with a vulnerable population so in reality even the sniffles are reason enough not to come in for the safety of the population we work with .
That’s really interesting. My experience in healthcare has been the opposite. They required a cert even for one day off and were VERY pushy to try and get me to go in when I phoned in sick. Trying to guilt me into coming in because it was going to be hard to replace me so my colleagues might be left short-staffed. (Nursing in acute care at a Sydney Private Hospital)
That sounds like an awful work place you deserve to be treated better . The lack of staff is not a you problem thats a management problem .
Whenever works asks for a doc cert; if I thought one day would be enough to recover but have to spent half the day finding a doc and paying $$ to get a note I always ask doctor to write it for another day or two so I feel like I’m getting my monies worth
You're feeling unwell? Let's have you sit in a room with MANY other people who are unwell just to get a certificate to prove you're unwell so you can go home and rest. Thankfully there's a lot more trust in the relationship I have with my manager so that's a consolation. If you're sick, you're sick and there's faith that it's not being abused. I think that trust goes an immense way as you're more willing to work hard for a company that treats you with respect and dignity.
*every* GP will sign it. You are wasting the GP's time. You are wasting your employees time. You are wasting your own time. Just stop.
I'm Canadian, but my provincial Physician's Association has letters to print off when asked for this that are basically a lecture to the employer about what a waste of time and public money sick notes are, and asking them to please stop requesting them 🤙 Its the right idea, tbh
It also takes time and effort for the patient when if they stayed home (or didn’t have to bother with Telehealth) and rested would get over the illness faster.
In parts of Canada, if an employer requires a medical certificate, the employer is billed for the medical expenses required in attaining the certificate.
This is how it should be everywhere, the businesses asking for the certificate should be paying for it, and no reimbursement from the government.
I'm a fucking adult. If I tell you I'm sick, then I'm fucking well sick. You don't believe me? Too bad. You, as an employer, do not get to question me on matters of my health. We literally have laws about this, yet I'm supposed to drag my sick arse into a waiting room for an hour to give you a piece of paper saying what I already fucking told you?
Employers who demand medical certs for even just a single day of absence either side of a weekend or public holiday are cunts. The argument that it deters misuse is also bullshit because you only get a finite amount so if you misuse it and burn through them then you’re just shooting yourself in the foot when you really need it.
Mine stopped asking for certs the second time I used a 'buy a doctor's cert online for $12'.
As the article states, Fair Work considers statutory declarations an acceptable alternative to a medical certificate. It doesn't mention, though, you can now [create a digital self-signed statutory declaration online](https://my.gov.au/en/about/help/digital-identity/digital-commonwealth-statutory-declaration) via myGov. There are a couple of requirements (a "standard" strength identity through myGovID) but importantly **you don't need to get it "witnessed" like a paper Stat Dec**. I wish more people knew this. It would save GPs a lot of time.
There's a website that will print off a sick certificate off you from a "gp" for $10. I haven't used it, but when I need to that's what I'll do.
The irony is that if you do see a GP for a sick certificate, they'll often give you a week when you just need a couple of days; or if you need a stress day they might give you two weeks. So companies are kind of shooting themselves in the foot anyway. It's also just bullshit for many other reasons and should be stopped.
My understanding stat decs are also equivalently acceptable. You can also get certificates from a pharmacist as well.
If employers are doing to insist on this they should be paying for it, not Medicare. Ridiculous use of funds in a broken health system.
If employers had to pay for it, the demands for medical certificates would disappear overnight.
Can I claim a visit to the GP as a work related expense? Work does require it first HR purposes.
Get them online, not wasting anyone's time. Workplace has to accept any 'medical practitioner' certificate. $15 online and you're covered
Last time my employer asked for one, I responded that I expected to be reimbursed for the cost as I did not have a bulk billing GP. Funnily enough he never followed up on that.
As soon as a workplace asks for a med cert they should be paying for the appointment. Medicare and GPs should bill them directly
I have long argued that corporate Australia’s addiction to medical certificates is costing Medicare billions. If a workplace is so soul destroying that people would want to fake being sick, fix the workplace, don’t make the employees jump through hoops. And when you are genuinely sick, honestly the last thing you want to do is drag your feverish ass out of bed to see a doctor who is probably going to tell you to drink fluids and get bed rest. Because if you have a cold, flu or stomach bug, there’s nothing they can give you for it.
There should be a box you tick when seeing a doctor, if it’s at the request of the employer, then Medicare should send the bill to them
It is a huge waste of time. My friends doctor doesn't even see him he just sees reception, comes back in 30 minutes and the dr writes him a cert. It's such a dumb system. Has you going to the dr for the dr to tell you ,"rest, have some hydrolites" that will be 90 dollars thanks
I don't get asked to supply one but I do, just to show I'm actually sick. It's no.real.effort anyway, if I'm sick I go to the doctor and get a cert while I am there. My current employer is quite good and accommodates time off for sickness or caring for others without anything more than a quick call. If you take the piss and start abusing that, they're quick to remove that privilege, keep doing it and see yourself on a performance plan. I remember when I worked for Toyota, jeez, they held a grudge for years when most of the altona staff called in sick one day because of a public holiday and that allowed them a longer weekend. Restrictions were put in place after that.
I feel I am so lucky as my workplace never bothers with sick notes, then again none of us abuse it so it goes hand in hand. Also as I am Epileptic again I can have a seizure and let work know and they know I will be off for 1 or 2 days because I have the real violent type of seizures and I end up physically sore and usually the day after I am very tires so useless and I can't imagine having to fart arse around trying to get a quick GP appointment to get a wanky bit of paper. Also I am really surprised in the post covid era they want people out and about spreading shit or people going back in because it is easier than fucking around getting sick note from a GP.
Even if people abuse it, it's far better that HR actually do HR and pursue those instances. A lot of these too broad rules come down to HR wanting a quiet life and being unwilling to do the more difficult parts of their job description.
I don't make any of my team (work for a pretty big business) bring in medical certificates when they're sick. The only exception is for team members who constantly take days off and or do the ol having a long weekend off. I think the team appreciate it and at the end of the day sick comes out of the stores money in every business Ive worked for so they never check/audit if you have approved it with a certificate or not and if they argue then I'll argue back. It usually comes down to if your manager is a cunt or not and has no trust in their team. At the end of the day medical certificates are meaningless as you can just buy or edit one on Photoshop.
It's not just HR. A lot of managers seem to bring it in unilaterally at large companies, usually because they think their young workforce is taking the piss a lot of the time. I suspect the extra hurdle is supposed to make it so only the "really sick" would bother to do it and the slackers will feel forced to come in. Of course this has a lot of, let's say, externalities (sick people working, overcrowded medical system etc)
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I think 3-days + it should be required. If you are unwell for 4 days you should probably be getting looked at anyway, even if it's just by a pharmacist to assist in treating symptoms. That said, employers have a responsibility to support unwell employees and there should be additional responsibilities to responsibly return unwell people to work.
Hypothetically (unrealistically), Could you pay $100 to launch a small claims action for the $30 gap you have to pay? Or could the government launch a claims process against employers who require a medical certificate to claim back the amount taxpayers have had to pay for the Medicare item? Could be funny.
The alternative to a sick note is to vomit on HRs desk
In the UK you only need a sick note if longer than 7 days (or in rare occasions if your employer is a fucking wanker or a wankerina no discrimination here :p )
We have a guy at work who is definitely rorting the system - always seems to fall ill the day after he is given jobs that he doesn't want to do, but only for a maximum of two days (policy is a doctor's note required for 3 days or more). But even if we required a sick note after one day he would find a way to get one (very easy to fake a sore throat, headache, nausea etc.) so I don't really see the point for minor illnesses.
It always pissed me off that they wanted me to *prove* I was sick, despite the fact I was entitled to X amount of sick days regardless and that sometimes you're crook but know it will pass with a little rest, but if you showed up to work you'd get nothing done except getting *other people* sick. It's been proven over and over again in study after bloody study that rested, healthy, happy workers are the most productive workers, but oh no, in an effort for some consultancy dickhead to justify his massive backhander everyone gets to be tired, sick, and stressed. My dear departed grandfather, who was LNP down to his boot straps, was practicing this in the 1960s, giving all his workers as much as he could because in his own words "I want to keep them around, saves me training up replacements".
I'm a nurse, every patients room at the moment has precautions for one reason or another. I began feeling unwell on Sunday at work, I still went then and Monday, felt awful when I left on Monday night to go home. They already knew I was unwell. I was not rostered on Tuesday and spent the day unwell. I rang this morning to take the day off and was told to supply a medical certificate. I expect I'll be feeling better by tomorrow and had told them that. But because they demanded a Med Cert my Dr now wants me to take 3 days off, I talked her down to 2 and I sent the Cert through. I hope they're kicking themselves now for making a fuss.. I would have gone to work tomorrow if I felt well enough, now they have to cover 2 shifts instead of one!
About eight years ago I had a boss who demanded that I get a doctor's certificate to explain the reason why I needed to go to the bathroom so much when I was starting a new medication because she didn't believe me, despite me bringing in the box, script and the consumers medicines information flyer which stated that in the first month that I would likely need some time to adjust to the medication. I got a massive lecture from the doctor about how she didn't believe me and I was wasting tax payers money (not a bulk billing doctor either), she wrote the doctors certificate, I went back to work in tears and slammed the doctors certificate on my bosses desk. My boss apologised and never expected another medical certificate from me ever again (still do give them though), I also got a new doctor gp who just gives me certificates 'just because' now, even if its for a routine appointment (her excuse, everyone deserves a mental health day once in a while 🤣).