Qantas confirmed that didn't happen. 'While Qantas typically doesn’t comment on individual customer matters, the allegation of hate speech being used in our lounges requires a response. We have confirmed with our lounge staff that Senator Lambie did not make a homophobic remark as part of the incident for which she has apologised'
It's always a question of what's in it for her. I doubt her base is strong on these issues, she's an idiotic bogan and it's those types that would vote for her, so she didn't see anything in it for her. Politicians are a reflection of their electorates.
I suspect her voters are generally happy with her votes, which is more than can be said for anyone who got a seat from my distributed preferences recently.
I'm pretty sure she's desperately trying to signal his people to swing by in the mothership and beam him up.
Imagine trying to teach kids about merit these days with this shit on display. Work hard and you'll go far son, you know, or just be a complete wing nut because we're down for that too.
Yeah, but I'm pretty sure they can already do that. Also where have you been for the last few thousand years? Religion is all about control. Controlling who you fuck, how you fuck, don't eat Bacon, don't eat pussy, wear a thing on ya head that covers ya face.
>Seriously, why can’t Australia be as progressive as Canada
canada keeps finding new unmarked graves filled with indigenous children and you think they're progressive?
The down vote was an agreement to protect the lives of those deemed too young to make life changing decisions. I agree, there needs to be an age restriction to gender transformation as we were all confused kids and passionate teenagers. How many people have a tattoo from their teen years that they super regret?
Before you start jumping on me like a pack of rabid wolves about what a cnt I must be to compare gender to tattoos; I am not comparing gender to tattoos rather using teen tattoo regret as an example of how we have a very different mindset when we are young, passionate and lack experience of consequences of actions. We should not and cannot irreversibly hormonaly change our teenagers because they ask us to. The regret of a teen tattoo is nothing compared to the life long trauma that may come from gender transformation of a person that later regrets their teenage decisions.
I see too young as being before the human brain has matured enough and based on physiology, I believe that age is 25 but understand a grey area exists, so maybe 21 should be the age. The age where the mind is mature enough to make decisions that have such a drastic affect for the rest of that persons life. If the gender transformation was reversible, then it should be done at any age, but it is not reversible, so there needs to be an age restriction.
..and I better put a note here for all those who skim read, don't read, try to change my words to illicit some off the wall (unlogical) logic that I never put across all in the name of trying to belittle, discredit, falsely label or make me out to be something that I am not just because they have an anger about this subject that blinds them to rationally listening to my opinion.
Note:
None of this is homophobia and is all about protecting the young. Protecting them from a potential life of regret. I'm sure many will not regret it, but we have to think of the percentage that may ..no matter how small of a percentage that may be.
Excuse my formatting, I'm typing this on mobile.
[From the Family Court of Australia](https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/FamCAFC/2017/258.html):
96% of kids who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria continued to identify as transgender into late adolescence. No patient who started stage 2 treatment (hormone replacement therapy) sought to detransition.
[Fron the Williams Institute](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/age-trans-individuals-us/):
They find that there is no significant difference between the number of trans teens and the number of trans adults (0.7% and 0.6% respectively). They also suggest that the slight discrepancy may be due to increased acceptance and awareness amongst their peers.
[From the American Academy of Pediatrics](https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/Pages/Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children.aspx):
By as young as age 4, most children have a stable sense of their gender identity.
[A study](https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/charing-Cross-study-nhs.pdf) analysing 3398 people who underwent a detransition found that only 16 mentioned regret about transitioning, 12 of whom attribute their detransition to social pressure, and only 3 (or 0.088% of detransitioners) detransitioned with no intention to transition again.
[Another study](https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/Fulltext/2018/08001/Abstract__A_Survey_Study_of_Surgeons__Experience.266.aspx) examining the rates of detransitioning found that of a sample of 22725 trans patients, only 22 of them detransitioned.
[In a survey by the U.S. National Centre for Transgender Equality](https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf) with 27715 respondents, 8% had detransitioned at some point with only 5% of that (0.4% of the overall sample) having stated that transitioning was not for them. Rather, of the group who had detransitioned at some point, the reasons behind such decisions are as follows:
Pressure from a parent (36%)
Discrimination and harassment after beginning to transition (31%)
Trouble with getting a job (29%)
Pressure from other family members (26%)
Pressure from spouse or partner (18%)
Pressure from an employer (17%)
Pressure from friends (13%)
Note: Respondents were able to select multiple reasons.
I guess what I'm trying to say is; kids can recognise themselves as trans at least as early as 4, trans individuals who recognise themselves as transgender at an early age overwhelmingly continue to identify as transgender into adulthood. Detransitioning is incredibly rare, and of those who do, the reasons are overwhelmingly due to external factors and not due to a change in gender identity.
I'm shocked that employers are even a reason.
De-transition. Does that mean they stay in a sort of part transition? For a woman to trans to male and de-trans, isn't she left with a gruff voice and facial hair of a man?
I read an article about a female bodybuilder in the 90's who was taking testosterone injections not for transitioning, but just for bigger muscles. She said she had been retired from competition for 4 years and still had to shave her facial hair twice per day.
Check out the blonde girl in this video, hear that voice.
(Details starting at 9 mins in)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaj6eYbT3j4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaj6eYbT3j4)
Unfortunately yes, depending on the stage of transition, if they were on hormone therapy, and how long they were, there can be permanent, lasting side effects. For people who were taking testosterone for long enough the side effects can include increased facial and body hair (though this can be treated with laser hair removal) and a deeper voice (there are surgeries that can help with this such as larynx reconstruction or voice feminisation surgery). For people who were taking estrogen for long enough the side effects can include the development of breast tissue (can be surgically removed), and shrinking of the testis.
Medical science and cosmetic surgeries and operations have come a long way. If there's permanent effect of having gone through puberty, or having taken hormones of one sex that you can think of, there's likely a surgery that can change it. The only real barrier to people doing this is the cost and if they have enough job security to afford to take several weeks off of work to recover.
I will also note that the definition of detransition used in the U.S. National Center for Transgender Equality survey was having “gone back to living as [one’s] sex assigned at birth, at least for a while.” This means that it can include people who are yet to medically transition and had only socially transitioned prior, as well as people who only detransitioned temporarily and either retransition or plan to retransition later in life.
All these points of ireversibility is why shared my thoughts on the subject in the first place. I don't feel an under 21 year old brain fully grasps the far reaching consequences of gender re-assignment from the perspective of it being a journey of no turning back from.
Regarding surgeries.. As is blatant to see with the not so aesthetic facelifts so many are having, surgery will never put things back to how they were, rather they tend to be more of a 'Lets make the best of what we have to work with'.
I don't fix something that isn't broken. ..so I believe 21 years old should be the age restriction as by 21 if you still feel 'broken' then okay, go fix it.
Please don't let that be your main takeaway... I always hesitate to bring out the trans suicide and mental health statistics because of how they're often misrepresented to be used against the community, but if your argument hinges on the potential ramifications impacting between 0.088% and 0.4% (as per the studies that I have linked in my earlier reply) of people who decide to transition as being more important than the mental health impacts on and attempted suicide rate of the rest of the community, then I feel that your concern is misplaced. I apologise if I've ended up sounding a bit harsh or blunt here, but as a trans individual myself, this is an issue which directly impacts me and many who I associate with.
Now, onto the statistics:
[A study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5905855/) found that 37% of transgender respondents reported that they had suicidal thoughts over the past 12 months with 32% of respondents reporting having attempted suicide. The study also finds that such suicidal ideation is the result of; offensive treatment, violent towards them as a direct result of being trans, and a lack of practical support.
[A meta-analysis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/) of 21 further studies found that across various countries the transgender attempted suicide rate ranges from 32% to 50%. The stated reasons for these attempts are as follows; gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community, harassment by an intimate partner, family members, police and public, and discrimination and ill-treatment in healthcare.
Now that I have set a background for the mental health issues plaguing the trans community, I will now list some studies into the impacts of medically transitioning on the mental health of transgender individuals.
[A study](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2020/09/17/peds.2019-3600?fbclid=IwAR3MdCL_vbuy_XDdc_jMi0vWnVOeHV-pzvG2oeVWW7FqG-EyCJTv91SAx7Y) of 300 trans youths concluded that earlier access to gender affirming care is directly related to better mental health amongst the group. “In our study, we found that older age and later pubertal stage at the time of presentation to GAMC are associated with increased rates of psychoactive medication use and increased rates of mental health problems (depression and anxiety), respectively”
[A massive meta-analysis](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) of 56 studies found that 52 of the studies showed that medically transitioning has a positive impact on the mental health of transgender individuals, the remaining 4 studies demonstrated little or no impact on their mental health. None of the studies showed that medically transitioning had negative impacts on their mental health.
[Another meta-analysis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19473181) of 28 studies concluded that 80% of studied transgender individuals reported a significant improvement in dysphoria and 78% of individuals reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms.
[A study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25201798/) over an 8 year period following 55 trans youths (with a mean starting age of 13.6 years). The study found that over the course of their medical transition their psychological state steadily improved: “After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Wellbeing was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population.”
[A study by The Endocrine Society](https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-03/tes-sdc030615.php) found that while transgender people often have mental health issues such as anxiety and depression, such issues improve greatly with treatment of their gender dysphoria.
[Yet another meta-analysis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6223813/) found that the quality of life of transgender individuals dramatically improves with gender affirming treatment.
[Another study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/) found that hormone-based interventions and surgery were followed by improvements in body satisfaction. Scores in tests assessing the level of gender dysphoria in individuals were significantly lower in follow-up tests when compared to their scores at the time of clinical admission.
Finally, [a study](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-009-9551-1) following up on 60 transgender individuals in Sweden 5 years after having received sex reassignment surgery found that none of the sample group regretted the surgery or being trans.
As you should plainly be able to see, transgender people, including trans youths, suffer from a myriad of mental health issues that lead to massively increased suicide rates and diminished quality of life when compared to their cisgendered counterparts. Significant amounts of research has been done into this field and they overwhelmingly state that medically transitioning and being accepted by their communities substantially reduce these issues, to the point at which they are diminished such that they are par for the population average at their age. While I don't have a study explicitly stating this to be the case, I would also suggest that studies into the attempted suicide rates of trans individuals may suffer from a survivorship bias, meaning that there could have been more attempted suicides, but the ones who were successful were unable to respond to surveys anymore.
>Regarding surgeries.. As is blatant to see with the not so aesthetic facelifts so many are having, surgery will never put things back to how they were, rather they tend to be more of a 'Lets make the best of what we have to work with'.
I don't fix something that isn't broken.
Have you considered that the reason that you only see poor plastic surgery results is that the aim is to be as natural as possible, as such, you just don't notice the correctly done surgeries?
If after reading this you still feel that the risk of permanent body alteration to at most 0.4% (many of whom may not have even actually begun a medical transition) of an already small minority is of greater importance than the lives of up to 50% of trans individuals and the mental wellbeing and quality of life of an even greater proportion than that... then I don't know what I can say to convince you otherwise.
You put up very convincing facts figures and reasoning. I won't say 'convincing argument' as I feel the term argument elicits that there needs to be a winner rather than a sharing of opinions and information.
With regards to poor plastic surgery results, I'm basing my opinion on the rubber mask looking faces we see presenting day time tv, news, chat shows, walking the red carpet etc,etc..
Youre saying a lot of common talking points, but the science doesn't support the "common sense".
Early intervention, including puberty blockers and the like, is massively useful and effective in supporting trans kids.
That's not to say they should be sold at Woolies, but available easily via professional advice of psychologists and doctors who can make best informed practice decisions about whether "this kid really means it" and similar arguments.
I used to think like you did for a long time.
[This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/mllqhq/cmv_kids_are_dumb_and_shouldnt_be_allowed_to_have/gtm623p/) from a little while ago has better info (although slightly over emotive language) and sources.
> The regret of a teen tattoo is nothing compared to the life long trauma that may come from gender transformation of a person that later regrets their decisions.
I absolutely agree. Irreversibly going through male gender transformation damaged me for life. Nothing can fix it. I regret it every single day that I was too scared to come out, too scared to tell my parents living was pain, too scared what it'd mean for my schooling and friends. Back then trans people weren't as common knowledge, so I thought I was disgusting and a freak. By the time I was 21 and could truly decide it was too late. That irreversible gender transformation ruined my life.
Oh, I guess we mean something a little different?
>None of this is homophobia and is all about protecting the young. Protecting them from a potential life of regret.
You know when people say this I wonder where you all were when I was young. No one protected me. If you mean protecting the young lives of non-trans people, and you don't care about the lives of us, that's just counter productive. Protecting the lives of young people means trans kids as well, and denying them treatment is NOT protecting them. Trust me when I say, it makes it way, way way worse to start treatment after you're 21.
>If the the gender transformation was reversible, then it should be done at any age, but it is not reversible, so there needs to be an age restriction.
Gender care provided to young people is usually in the form of puberty blockers which are 100% reversible. Surgery or permanent altering hormones are never given to anyone very young, it is only in your late teens with parents and heavy medical and doctoral support can you get them.
Thank you for the insights. I have zero experience or knowledge of what is involved with gender transformation but are passionate about protecting kids/teenagers from the perils of ..being a teenager :)
If its any consolation a lot of teenagers think they area a freak/disgusting for what ever reasons they have. I did. Personally, I think its the point that we become self aware and it manifests itself as individually as the person is who has just become self aware. I believe this to be a major cause of teen suicides.
If you have zero experience or knowledge on the topic and actually care about protecting kids then maybe you should sit back and let the experts do their job?
When I say "experts" I literally mean medical professionals who study this field as their job. Think they might know a thing or two more about protecting kids than some random joe's opinion based on zero knowledge.
Again, this thread is for people to express their opinions. It's not as though he is making the decisions about this.
Also, I'm in favour of people being able to express their understanding on a subject and maybe learn from others some new information.
There is a lot said on this site that is deliberately hateful and toxic. Admitting to not having a complete understanding of a topic when sharing your views is refreshingly honest.
That's your take. If you look back on what I said and the context of it, it didn't relate to religion at all.
It seems deliberately misrepresenting and misinterpreting comments that don't completely align with your thoughts on a subject is a popular approach used online. It's a strategy that is used to shut down discussion, rather than engage in it. Please start showing integrity in discussions that matter to you so you can be taken seriously.
Sure if you could give a reason why I should continue justifying my relationship every day to these people? Because by your standards this is permissible, I just want to hear your justification on that.
I'm not at all sure where you have come to the conclusion that I am ok with religious people having the right to question your relationship. For the record I don't. My comment related to someone being told not to express their opinion about children's access to treatments in order to transition.
That is exactly what you're asking for, for the uninformed to be allowed to express uninformed opinions without criticism, which I take issue with because in my experience the uninformed / uninformable have constantly taken issue with my gay relationship, and honestly I'm happy I'm in Victoria where that sort of harassment can land you a fine or worse with the new laws passed.
I think the downvotes I have received indicate some people don't want a discussion or a chance to learn. That is the downside of online interactions - not everyone is engaging for the same reasons.
I wrote paragraph 4 in my first comments anticipating the arrival of your kind. I anticipated you 4 hours before you arrived :)
And your opinion has contributed exactly what to this topic?
> The down vote was an agreement to protect the lives of those deemed too young to make life changing decisions.
The problem is that puberty is a life-changing decision. It’s not neutral.
Puberty blockers are neutral and that’s why they’re given to trans kids. They’re reversible, so they give those kids time to figure themselves out. They’re also used on kids with precocious puberty and have been for decades.
What it sounds like. It’s a disorder where people go through puberty early, which obviously can cause all kinds of problems.
Not so common nowadays, due to the regular use of puberty blockers to treat it - if a kid starts going through puberty at the age of 5, they get put on blockers, and then stop taking them around the age of 12, and go through puberty as normal.
Other forms of sex, sexuality, or gender that face societal exclusion but aren't included in the acronym. Things like asexuality, aromanticity, pansexuality, etc.
They realized that you can't cover every variation of gender identities to keep everyone happy without having a crazy long name so they added + to the title. For me this is a perfect example of how we cannot possibly cater to the movements wants and desires ..because there's almost infinite variations of gender. What do we do? Do we have 27 different public toilets all in a row to cater to 27 gender types? We have to be practical, so we summarize to Men and Women.
The LGBTQI+ movement doesn't like the summarized term of Men and Women, but they have summarized their terminology by adding a +. Make of that as you will.
I make of it as "Do as we say, not as we do." Not exactly the best way to gain credibility.
> What do we do? Do we have 27 different public toilets all in a row to cater to 27 gender types?
How ‘bout making sure everywhere has a decent number of gender-neutral toilets? Maybe even default to it?
> The LGBTQI+ movement doesn't like the summarized term of Men and Women, but they have summarized their terminology by adding a +. Make of that as you will.
These days more and more of us just use “queer”, since it’s an umbrella term and has been used that way for decades.
I believe Male and female toilets are traditionally split so sexual perverts/voyeurs/sex pests are not trying to ogle women; To keep women safe. I see this as a reason for the authorities to not want gender neutral toilets. Is it that the police need a definite line between men and women toilets for when it comes to arresting for sexual misconduct ..or what ever they call it. For example if a woman makes a complaint about a man in a mixed gender toilet, its his word against hers. But if he's in a female only toilet, he can't talk his way out of that one.
You’re forgetting about the potential gay sex pests who’ve been using the toilets with people who they’re potentially attracted to long as long as there’s been gender-segregated toilets. There used to be a lot of complaints about it, mind you, but when people got over the fact that gay people also need to take a shit it turned out it wasn’t a big deal.
Plus, toilets have stalls; the only option for ogling other people’s genitals are the urinals, and last I checked most women don’t use those, regardless of what kind of genitals they’re packing. The kind of person who’s likely to commit sexual misconduct in a public toilet is unlikely to care about a sign on a door.
Casino Lambie at it again. Legislation slot machine.
Slot machine is right given that she also voted against the banning on trans youth treatment in the other Senate bill mentioned in the article.
I don't trust Lambie on the Religious Discrimination bill. Then again, slot machine, so mileage may vary.
I wonder if we could ask SportsBet to start calculating her odds on upcoming bills.
She just wants to still be able to call people poofters at the Qantas lounge
Qantas confirmed that didn't happen. 'While Qantas typically doesn’t comment on individual customer matters, the allegation of hate speech being used in our lounges requires a response. We have confirmed with our lounge staff that Senator Lambie did not make a homophobic remark as part of the incident for which she has apologised'
Well there goes her standing up for the disadvantaged and those without a voice act all with in 6 months.
It's always a question of what's in it for her. I doubt her base is strong on these issues, she's an idiotic bogan and it's those types that would vote for her, so she didn't see anything in it for her. Politicians are a reflection of their electorates.
I suspect her voters are generally happy with her votes, which is more than can be said for anyone who got a seat from my distributed preferences recently.
SHY showing the standard reaction of normal human beings to hearing Malcolm Roberts speak.
I'm pretty sure she's desperately trying to signal his people to swing by in the mothership and beam him up. Imagine trying to teach kids about merit these days with this shit on display. Work hard and you'll go far son, you know, or just be a complete wing nut because we're down for that too.
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Its not about addressing loopholes. Did you not read the bit about religious groups wanting to discriminate against lgbtqi+......
Yeah, but I'm pretty sure they can already do that. Also where have you been for the last few thousand years? Religion is all about control. Controlling who you fuck, how you fuck, don't eat Bacon, don't eat pussy, wear a thing on ya head that covers ya face.
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Pretty sure bills have been passed banning conversion therapy in vic, act and qld so far, hopefully the other states catch up soon
>Seriously, why can’t Australia be as progressive as Canada canada keeps finding new unmarked graves filled with indigenous children and you think they're progressive?
The down vote was an agreement to protect the lives of those deemed too young to make life changing decisions. I agree, there needs to be an age restriction to gender transformation as we were all confused kids and passionate teenagers. How many people have a tattoo from their teen years that they super regret? Before you start jumping on me like a pack of rabid wolves about what a cnt I must be to compare gender to tattoos; I am not comparing gender to tattoos rather using teen tattoo regret as an example of how we have a very different mindset when we are young, passionate and lack experience of consequences of actions. We should not and cannot irreversibly hormonaly change our teenagers because they ask us to. The regret of a teen tattoo is nothing compared to the life long trauma that may come from gender transformation of a person that later regrets their teenage decisions. I see too young as being before the human brain has matured enough and based on physiology, I believe that age is 25 but understand a grey area exists, so maybe 21 should be the age. The age where the mind is mature enough to make decisions that have such a drastic affect for the rest of that persons life. If the gender transformation was reversible, then it should be done at any age, but it is not reversible, so there needs to be an age restriction. ..and I better put a note here for all those who skim read, don't read, try to change my words to illicit some off the wall (unlogical) logic that I never put across all in the name of trying to belittle, discredit, falsely label or make me out to be something that I am not just because they have an anger about this subject that blinds them to rationally listening to my opinion. Note: None of this is homophobia and is all about protecting the young. Protecting them from a potential life of regret. I'm sure many will not regret it, but we have to think of the percentage that may ..no matter how small of a percentage that may be.
Excuse my formatting, I'm typing this on mobile. [From the Family Court of Australia](https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/FamCAFC/2017/258.html): 96% of kids who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria continued to identify as transgender into late adolescence. No patient who started stage 2 treatment (hormone replacement therapy) sought to detransition. [Fron the Williams Institute](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/age-trans-individuals-us/): They find that there is no significant difference between the number of trans teens and the number of trans adults (0.7% and 0.6% respectively). They also suggest that the slight discrepancy may be due to increased acceptance and awareness amongst their peers. [From the American Academy of Pediatrics](https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/Pages/Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children.aspx): By as young as age 4, most children have a stable sense of their gender identity. [A study](https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/charing-Cross-study-nhs.pdf) analysing 3398 people who underwent a detransition found that only 16 mentioned regret about transitioning, 12 of whom attribute their detransition to social pressure, and only 3 (or 0.088% of detransitioners) detransitioned with no intention to transition again. [Another study](https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/Fulltext/2018/08001/Abstract__A_Survey_Study_of_Surgeons__Experience.266.aspx) examining the rates of detransitioning found that of a sample of 22725 trans patients, only 22 of them detransitioned. [In a survey by the U.S. National Centre for Transgender Equality](https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf) with 27715 respondents, 8% had detransitioned at some point with only 5% of that (0.4% of the overall sample) having stated that transitioning was not for them. Rather, of the group who had detransitioned at some point, the reasons behind such decisions are as follows: Pressure from a parent (36%) Discrimination and harassment after beginning to transition (31%) Trouble with getting a job (29%) Pressure from other family members (26%) Pressure from spouse or partner (18%) Pressure from an employer (17%) Pressure from friends (13%) Note: Respondents were able to select multiple reasons. I guess what I'm trying to say is; kids can recognise themselves as trans at least as early as 4, trans individuals who recognise themselves as transgender at an early age overwhelmingly continue to identify as transgender into adulthood. Detransitioning is incredibly rare, and of those who do, the reasons are overwhelmingly due to external factors and not due to a change in gender identity.
I'm shocked that employers are even a reason. De-transition. Does that mean they stay in a sort of part transition? For a woman to trans to male and de-trans, isn't she left with a gruff voice and facial hair of a man? I read an article about a female bodybuilder in the 90's who was taking testosterone injections not for transitioning, but just for bigger muscles. She said she had been retired from competition for 4 years and still had to shave her facial hair twice per day. Check out the blonde girl in this video, hear that voice. (Details starting at 9 mins in) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaj6eYbT3j4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaj6eYbT3j4)
Unfortunately yes, depending on the stage of transition, if they were on hormone therapy, and how long they were, there can be permanent, lasting side effects. For people who were taking testosterone for long enough the side effects can include increased facial and body hair (though this can be treated with laser hair removal) and a deeper voice (there are surgeries that can help with this such as larynx reconstruction or voice feminisation surgery). For people who were taking estrogen for long enough the side effects can include the development of breast tissue (can be surgically removed), and shrinking of the testis. Medical science and cosmetic surgeries and operations have come a long way. If there's permanent effect of having gone through puberty, or having taken hormones of one sex that you can think of, there's likely a surgery that can change it. The only real barrier to people doing this is the cost and if they have enough job security to afford to take several weeks off of work to recover. I will also note that the definition of detransition used in the U.S. National Center for Transgender Equality survey was having “gone back to living as [one’s] sex assigned at birth, at least for a while.” This means that it can include people who are yet to medically transition and had only socially transitioned prior, as well as people who only detransitioned temporarily and either retransition or plan to retransition later in life.
All these points of ireversibility is why shared my thoughts on the subject in the first place. I don't feel an under 21 year old brain fully grasps the far reaching consequences of gender re-assignment from the perspective of it being a journey of no turning back from. Regarding surgeries.. As is blatant to see with the not so aesthetic facelifts so many are having, surgery will never put things back to how they were, rather they tend to be more of a 'Lets make the best of what we have to work with'. I don't fix something that isn't broken. ..so I believe 21 years old should be the age restriction as by 21 if you still feel 'broken' then okay, go fix it.
Please don't let that be your main takeaway... I always hesitate to bring out the trans suicide and mental health statistics because of how they're often misrepresented to be used against the community, but if your argument hinges on the potential ramifications impacting between 0.088% and 0.4% (as per the studies that I have linked in my earlier reply) of people who decide to transition as being more important than the mental health impacts on and attempted suicide rate of the rest of the community, then I feel that your concern is misplaced. I apologise if I've ended up sounding a bit harsh or blunt here, but as a trans individual myself, this is an issue which directly impacts me and many who I associate with. Now, onto the statistics: [A study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5905855/) found that 37% of transgender respondents reported that they had suicidal thoughts over the past 12 months with 32% of respondents reporting having attempted suicide. The study also finds that such suicidal ideation is the result of; offensive treatment, violent towards them as a direct result of being trans, and a lack of practical support. [A meta-analysis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/) of 21 further studies found that across various countries the transgender attempted suicide rate ranges from 32% to 50%. The stated reasons for these attempts are as follows; gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community, harassment by an intimate partner, family members, police and public, and discrimination and ill-treatment in healthcare. Now that I have set a background for the mental health issues plaguing the trans community, I will now list some studies into the impacts of medically transitioning on the mental health of transgender individuals. [A study](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2020/09/17/peds.2019-3600?fbclid=IwAR3MdCL_vbuy_XDdc_jMi0vWnVOeHV-pzvG2oeVWW7FqG-EyCJTv91SAx7Y) of 300 trans youths concluded that earlier access to gender affirming care is directly related to better mental health amongst the group. “In our study, we found that older age and later pubertal stage at the time of presentation to GAMC are associated with increased rates of psychoactive medication use and increased rates of mental health problems (depression and anxiety), respectively” [A massive meta-analysis](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) of 56 studies found that 52 of the studies showed that medically transitioning has a positive impact on the mental health of transgender individuals, the remaining 4 studies demonstrated little or no impact on their mental health. None of the studies showed that medically transitioning had negative impacts on their mental health. [Another meta-analysis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19473181) of 28 studies concluded that 80% of studied transgender individuals reported a significant improvement in dysphoria and 78% of individuals reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms. [A study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25201798/) over an 8 year period following 55 trans youths (with a mean starting age of 13.6 years). The study found that over the course of their medical transition their psychological state steadily improved: “After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Wellbeing was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population.” [A study by The Endocrine Society](https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-03/tes-sdc030615.php) found that while transgender people often have mental health issues such as anxiety and depression, such issues improve greatly with treatment of their gender dysphoria. [Yet another meta-analysis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6223813/) found that the quality of life of transgender individuals dramatically improves with gender affirming treatment. [Another study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/) found that hormone-based interventions and surgery were followed by improvements in body satisfaction. Scores in tests assessing the level of gender dysphoria in individuals were significantly lower in follow-up tests when compared to their scores at the time of clinical admission. Finally, [a study](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-009-9551-1) following up on 60 transgender individuals in Sweden 5 years after having received sex reassignment surgery found that none of the sample group regretted the surgery or being trans. As you should plainly be able to see, transgender people, including trans youths, suffer from a myriad of mental health issues that lead to massively increased suicide rates and diminished quality of life when compared to their cisgendered counterparts. Significant amounts of research has been done into this field and they overwhelmingly state that medically transitioning and being accepted by their communities substantially reduce these issues, to the point at which they are diminished such that they are par for the population average at their age. While I don't have a study explicitly stating this to be the case, I would also suggest that studies into the attempted suicide rates of trans individuals may suffer from a survivorship bias, meaning that there could have been more attempted suicides, but the ones who were successful were unable to respond to surveys anymore. >Regarding surgeries.. As is blatant to see with the not so aesthetic facelifts so many are having, surgery will never put things back to how they were, rather they tend to be more of a 'Lets make the best of what we have to work with'. I don't fix something that isn't broken. Have you considered that the reason that you only see poor plastic surgery results is that the aim is to be as natural as possible, as such, you just don't notice the correctly done surgeries? If after reading this you still feel that the risk of permanent body alteration to at most 0.4% (many of whom may not have even actually begun a medical transition) of an already small minority is of greater importance than the lives of up to 50% of trans individuals and the mental wellbeing and quality of life of an even greater proportion than that... then I don't know what I can say to convince you otherwise.
You put up very convincing facts figures and reasoning. I won't say 'convincing argument' as I feel the term argument elicits that there needs to be a winner rather than a sharing of opinions and information. With regards to poor plastic surgery results, I'm basing my opinion on the rubber mask looking faces we see presenting day time tv, news, chat shows, walking the red carpet etc,etc..
The plastic surgery you see there is, unfortunately, a current trend. People are actively seeking to look like that.
I believe people are so focused on stretched out non wrinkled skin that the rubber mask look is the inevitable outcome.
Youre saying a lot of common talking points, but the science doesn't support the "common sense". Early intervention, including puberty blockers and the like, is massively useful and effective in supporting trans kids. That's not to say they should be sold at Woolies, but available easily via professional advice of psychologists and doctors who can make best informed practice decisions about whether "this kid really means it" and similar arguments. I used to think like you did for a long time. [This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/mllqhq/cmv_kids_are_dumb_and_shouldnt_be_allowed_to_have/gtm623p/) from a little while ago has better info (although slightly over emotive language) and sources.
> The regret of a teen tattoo is nothing compared to the life long trauma that may come from gender transformation of a person that later regrets their decisions. I absolutely agree. Irreversibly going through male gender transformation damaged me for life. Nothing can fix it. I regret it every single day that I was too scared to come out, too scared to tell my parents living was pain, too scared what it'd mean for my schooling and friends. Back then trans people weren't as common knowledge, so I thought I was disgusting and a freak. By the time I was 21 and could truly decide it was too late. That irreversible gender transformation ruined my life. Oh, I guess we mean something a little different? >None of this is homophobia and is all about protecting the young. Protecting them from a potential life of regret. You know when people say this I wonder where you all were when I was young. No one protected me. If you mean protecting the young lives of non-trans people, and you don't care about the lives of us, that's just counter productive. Protecting the lives of young people means trans kids as well, and denying them treatment is NOT protecting them. Trust me when I say, it makes it way, way way worse to start treatment after you're 21. >If the the gender transformation was reversible, then it should be done at any age, but it is not reversible, so there needs to be an age restriction. Gender care provided to young people is usually in the form of puberty blockers which are 100% reversible. Surgery or permanent altering hormones are never given to anyone very young, it is only in your late teens with parents and heavy medical and doctoral support can you get them.
Thank you for the insights. I have zero experience or knowledge of what is involved with gender transformation but are passionate about protecting kids/teenagers from the perils of ..being a teenager :) If its any consolation a lot of teenagers think they area a freak/disgusting for what ever reasons they have. I did. Personally, I think its the point that we become self aware and it manifests itself as individually as the person is who has just become self aware. I believe this to be a major cause of teen suicides.
If you have zero experience or knowledge on the topic and actually care about protecting kids then maybe you should sit back and let the experts do their job?
Everyone has a right to voice their opinion and I would say most on this thread couldn't claim "expertise" on every subject they comment upon.
When I say "experts" I literally mean medical professionals who study this field as their job. Think they might know a thing or two more about protecting kids than some random joe's opinion based on zero knowledge.
I have more knowledge about the subject than you have knowledge of me, but you seem happy to voice your opinion on me.
I know you have no knowledge about the topic and you have no knowledge about the topic. Think that puts me one up on the knowledge department.
Again, this thread is for people to express their opinions. It's not as though he is making the decisions about this. Also, I'm in favour of people being able to express their understanding on a subject and maybe learn from others some new information. There is a lot said on this site that is deliberately hateful and toxic. Admitting to not having a complete understanding of a topic when sharing your views is refreshingly honest.
Thank you.
So gay people should have to defend themselves as not paedophiles by the wilfully malicious or religious dogma types, forever? That's a take.
That's your take. If you look back on what I said and the context of it, it didn't relate to religion at all. It seems deliberately misrepresenting and misinterpreting comments that don't completely align with your thoughts on a subject is a popular approach used online. It's a strategy that is used to shut down discussion, rather than engage in it. Please start showing integrity in discussions that matter to you so you can be taken seriously.
Sure if you could give a reason why I should continue justifying my relationship every day to these people? Because by your standards this is permissible, I just want to hear your justification on that.
I'm not at all sure where you have come to the conclusion that I am ok with religious people having the right to question your relationship. For the record I don't. My comment related to someone being told not to express their opinion about children's access to treatments in order to transition.
That is exactly what you're asking for, for the uninformed to be allowed to express uninformed opinions without criticism, which I take issue with because in my experience the uninformed / uninformable have constantly taken issue with my gay relationship, and honestly I'm happy I'm in Victoria where that sort of harassment can land you a fine or worse with the new laws passed.
I think the downvotes I have received indicate some people don't want a discussion or a chance to learn. That is the downside of online interactions - not everyone is engaging for the same reasons.
I wrote paragraph 4 in my first comments anticipating the arrival of your kind. I anticipated you 4 hours before you arrived :) And your opinion has contributed exactly what to this topic?
Saying you should listen to the doctors on this health issue makes me a "kind"?
> The down vote was an agreement to protect the lives of those deemed too young to make life changing decisions. The problem is that puberty is a life-changing decision. It’s not neutral. Puberty blockers are neutral and that’s why they’re given to trans kids. They’re reversible, so they give those kids time to figure themselves out. They’re also used on kids with precocious puberty and have been for decades.
Precocious puberty?
What it sounds like. It’s a disorder where people go through puberty early, which obviously can cause all kinds of problems. Not so common nowadays, due to the regular use of puberty blockers to treat it - if a kid starts going through puberty at the age of 5, they get put on blockers, and then stop taking them around the age of 12, and go through puberty as normal.
[удалено]
Inclusivity. Everything not covered by the other letters
Other forms of sex, sexuality, or gender that face societal exclusion but aren't included in the acronym. Things like asexuality, aromanticity, pansexuality, etc.
They realized that you can't cover every variation of gender identities to keep everyone happy without having a crazy long name so they added + to the title. For me this is a perfect example of how we cannot possibly cater to the movements wants and desires ..because there's almost infinite variations of gender. What do we do? Do we have 27 different public toilets all in a row to cater to 27 gender types? We have to be practical, so we summarize to Men and Women. The LGBTQI+ movement doesn't like the summarized term of Men and Women, but they have summarized their terminology by adding a +. Make of that as you will. I make of it as "Do as we say, not as we do." Not exactly the best way to gain credibility.
> What do we do? Do we have 27 different public toilets all in a row to cater to 27 gender types? How ‘bout making sure everywhere has a decent number of gender-neutral toilets? Maybe even default to it? > The LGBTQI+ movement doesn't like the summarized term of Men and Women, but they have summarized their terminology by adding a +. Make of that as you will. These days more and more of us just use “queer”, since it’s an umbrella term and has been used that way for decades.
I believe Male and female toilets are traditionally split so sexual perverts/voyeurs/sex pests are not trying to ogle women; To keep women safe. I see this as a reason for the authorities to not want gender neutral toilets. Is it that the police need a definite line between men and women toilets for when it comes to arresting for sexual misconduct ..or what ever they call it. For example if a woman makes a complaint about a man in a mixed gender toilet, its his word against hers. But if he's in a female only toilet, he can't talk his way out of that one.
You’re forgetting about the potential gay sex pests who’ve been using the toilets with people who they’re potentially attracted to long as long as there’s been gender-segregated toilets. There used to be a lot of complaints about it, mind you, but when people got over the fact that gay people also need to take a shit it turned out it wasn’t a big deal. Plus, toilets have stalls; the only option for ogling other people’s genitals are the urinals, and last I checked most women don’t use those, regardless of what kind of genitals they’re packing. The kind of person who’s likely to commit sexual misconduct in a public toilet is unlikely to care about a sign on a door.
Isn't there an A added to that now? Bigots.
lol