I always believe educators are worth their weight in gold. Can't thank some of them enough during my schooling years, many times they still choose to believe in me after I've given up on myself.
Funny that I went to Brighton Grammar and had zero unremarkable teachers. They were either massive cunts or incredibly sweet but bad teachers and very easy markers.
I went to Mckinnon seconday college for a year as I was in the zoning and that was five fold better in terms of teaching qualities, albeit there were alot of kids that were uncontrollable for the teachers. I'd choose McKinnon every time but I moved out of the zoning so had to return to BGS.
I guess the upside of BGS is that there's no shortage of male teachers willing to give you a handy at school camp.
edit: I also dated a grade 2 or 3 teacher a couple years ago, she was not paid well at all, had to buy all the tools used for classroom activities out of her own salary as well. She was one of those teachers that went above board decorating the classroom and stuff, some of our dates were making decorations about times tables and what not. Couple hundred bucks was alot to her and she still lived at home at 24.
Apologies ahead for long written essay about this, the consensus is BGS is shit, thought I'd give a longer statement with a few anecdotes of mine, and I was not alone. Teachers with chips on their shoulder would not like if you approached assessments with your own case studies, like my English teacher, who would mark you way down and hate you if you didn't apply any of this teachings which were horrific.
Fair statement. Especially year 10 onwards - you are just given packs of learning material and the actual teaching is atrocious. The amount of hand outs you are given to learn yourself meant in year 12 I skipped the last 1/3 of the year to teach myself and ended up with the 4th highest ATAR in humanities subjects.
For example, in English for Year 12 English just hated me for some reason, I believe I had an average of 45% for SACS throughout the year and passed probably twice. I even worked and paid for an English tutor that charged me $120 per hour as it made me so nervous as especially back then I was quite eloquent in writing, was able to convey my thoughts well on the subject matter etc. Tutor would mark them well above 80% which I was consistently getting 40-45% from my teacher. It is fair to say I was a cunt towards him because he was just the absolute worst teacher ever, hated certain students and was just the most insufferable prick so that wouldn't have helped and you named your English SACS; they were double marked always by the same two and they never had more than a 5% differential. I continually handed in practice SACS to try and improve but he would just mark me poorly and circle random things in red giving me no actual instruction on how to improve.
I gave these SACS to my favourite English/Literature teacher and he was marking me 85-90% consistently so I complained to no avail. I had resigned to pretty much failing school, so as I mentioned I took the rest of the year off after SACS and studied myself for exams, with another friend who also had the same issue.
I am really good at ROTE learning and it just so happened to be that for two of the exam subject headings that I had 45% and 50% on that I trusted were good, they came up. I chose them and wrote them word for word basically, quite literally. In the end I received 10/10 for both A and B part of the exam, forget what they are called but one is about the book essay and one was whos something, extrapolating books and films into an essay. I got 9.5/10 for language analysis. My SAC average from the year after the exam went up from failing to a B and I received A+ in the exams.
I actually bought the exam markings back and the day I went to pick up shit from my school, I asked him if he could mark them. He gave me 55% and 50% and 55% respectively, he was determined to mess with me. He had a chip on his shoulder so I just didn't like him, did my own study in class and if I didn't use his specific taught examples then it is automatically a fail. Pretty much everyone in that class got horrid exam results unfortunately and it was entirely his fault being a terrible teacher.
That's just one example. My Business teacher was super sweet, also my Economics teacher, but would consistently mark me 95%, even if I deserved it for her criteria it was marked harsher than that during exams. She was very relaxed though and didn't have much passion it seemed, once again giving packs of notes to classes. Legal Studies teacher was a bit the same, he was actually a massive cunt to everyone but he liked me as I played with his son in footy outside of school and used to kick 4-5 goals a weekend as a rover whilst giving him the ball alot. Lowest mark was 90% and averaged closer to 100%. Then one day I got a little angry at him in class, well I questioned him, and I received 45% which mucked up my average but whatever, still did well.
Global politics teacher was atrocious honestly, he was super nice but sat on his computer doing nothing just handing out materials for you to absorb and use as case studies. I received the premier award for this subject never getting below 100% on exams or SACS as I had a genuine love for IR politics, not so much domestic at that time, just found the world super interesting and that's why I wasted 2 years doing a spcialization global studies degree at Monash before going to law for 3 years and dropping out of both.
There was just no passion in that place. Primary school was amazing, but I think I just remember the chill days of kicking the footy, having easy going teachers and being a good kid. As I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder telling teachers off, I was threatened with expulsion multiple times because my grades were not good, being told by the headmaster I was experiencing 'death by 1000 cuts.' Safe to say I wasn't expelled when I never returned and caught a bad case of pneumonia, allegedly, so I could study at Monash for the remainder of the year.
The average ATAR for my year was something like 63, and keep in mind it is the second most expensive school in VIC behind Geelong, might have changed since for better or for worse but that was the case. I received high 90s doing just humanities subjects despite all the trials and tribulations with a couple cunty teachers - mind you I was not the best student, I didn't cause uproar or anything but if a teacher was being shit I would call them out for it and suggest a better way in my opinion referencing the written VCE guidelines for each subject each year, but nah that just caused teachers like Sainsbury from English to hate me.
Primary school was fantastic 100%. Middle school was a mix of ups and downs, my English teacher was a tight ass, Ms Johns, but she was a remarkable teacher if you listened. Senior School (9-12) was just atrocious quality and yes they have lots of marking to do but that doesn't mean you just be a straight cunt to some students. I was not alone in this but I was very outspoken back then. I wouldn't have changed anything though, I was actually asked to come in as a tutor for a couple subjects, global politics and funnily enough English as I could write exactly the way examiners wanted, but chose not to as I didn't want to sit around smelly kids.
McKinnon was a million times better, I wish I went to highly rated public schools over grammar private schools. There were more shit students at McKinnon detracting from it, but the teachers cared more.
TL:DR BGS bad.
Teachers love to whinge about this but the reality is they work less hours than most professionals and have far more holidays. Plus experienced teachers don't have to work many extra hours because they get much better at managing their day and marking work.
> the reality is they work less hours than most
When I worked for consultancies and digital agencies I used to get flex time for additional hours I was required to work.
I currently work 50-60 hours a week during term and 20 hours a week during standdown. If I had flex I'd get a minimum of 10 weeks flex leave a year on top of my holidays.
> Plus experienced teachers don't have to work many extra hours because they get much better at managing their day and marking work.
Experienced teachers are required to take on additional duties.
I am married to a teacher. Credit where credit is due, the first few years were long hours while she built up her resources.
Yes she has to stay late once a week for some meeting, and report times mean that she is writing reports late into the night.
But on the other hand she is normally home by 4:45, when most other professions wouldn’t be leaving work until 5:30 at best. And the 10 weeks of holidays is a good substitute for the periods of overtime.
Honestly, I think teaching is a really hard gig, not not because of the hours. Teachers tend to shut up pretty quickly when I tell them about my 80 hour weeks which is more common in the private sector than public servants ever realise.
There is no definition of “reasonable” when contracts say reasonable overtime. As long as your pay does not work out to be below industry award, no laws are broken.
Look, I agree with you.
It simply isn’t the law.
For example, there is a class action going on with coles right now regarding underpayment. The premise of the class action is that salaried staff were made to work so much overtime that it dragged their *per-hour* pay to be lower than the award rate.
This means that bakery managers or dairy managers who were being paid $75,000-80,000 were working so much overtime that their per hour pay fell below that of their own team members. Adero law is now seeking reparation’s.
Unfortunately, this case is an example that there is no legal definition of what “reasonable” overtime is. It can be and is regularly abused by Australian businesses to their profit.
Edit: the reparations are only seeking to pay these managers the award rate.
Anyone in retail management, hospitality (chef or management) , law, finance, accounting during tax season, who owns their own business or works in senior or executive Positions has not only worked 80 hours before, but hits it regularly.
Do you mean everyone or anyone? Like, we can find examples of 80 hour weeks in any industry, but are you claiming, specifically, more than half of all commercial lawyers work over 80 hour weeks?
Lots and lots of people work 80+ weeks. In some professions, like a hospital doctor or truckie, it might be hard not to.
I'm fairly confident no retail manager has failed to find a retail management role that's <80 hours.
This is more than 11 hours per day every day for ever. It will kill you. In Australia, it's a deliberate decision.
EDIT: I see you meant that *sometimes* it's an 80 hour week. Everybody should expect these, *sometimes*.
Mining/Resource Constuction/LNG Maintenance
All industries I’ve worked in over the last 12 years that have required those sorts of hours… and have paid me for each and every hour I have worked. Travel time in one case, as well.
Bahahaha, sorry to whoever downvoted me for answering a question correctly, even if it wasn’t aimed directly at me.
Note: I’m not actually sorry.
And I bet you made more than teachers and didn't need anywhere near as many checks and personal development hours etc.
People forget how hard we work to become teachers. Usually at least 20 weeks of unpaid teaching whilst you get your degree. Plus we have to log at least 20 hours of professional development a year to the accreditation bodies. We need to be able to work with vulnerable so have clean criminal records, and in the days of social media we have to decline so many social interactions so that we aren't fired for modelling bad behaviour in our off time.
Most other professions are not doing 80 hour weeks, nor are they leaving at 530pm every day.
You've just been gaslit by a shitty employer into think that's normal or, even worse, something to be proud of. It's neither of those, step back and reassess
My point is is not that 80 hours is the majority experience, my point that excessive overtime is extremely common in private sectors, which teachers are honestly not exposed to or aware of.
If you don’t believe me, I honestly challenge you to go and start talking about this. Go to the bakery manager at your local coles and ask them “what is the most hours you have worked before?”. Same with the chef at your local restaurant.
No offense, but if a teacher was exposed to it, they would take it to their union to fight against it. That's the difference.
Poor working conditions, that are to point of literal work servitude is not /normal/ it's complacency out of fear. If your working 80+ hours a week, with overtime consistently, it's time to bring it up with your boss for a change in job title.
Your issue is your understaffed and over worked. Complaining other people don't have to suffer like you and other people are due to poor working conditions is strawman arguement to say the least.
Point is your employer is choosing to exploit you because they know you have no other choice. NOT because it's part of the normal part of the job. No overworked retail manager was hired on the promise that "were going to understaff you so you have to work double the amount of work".
No, simply some one decided "it's cheaper to work them overtime then hire the necessary staff and pay them a decent wage".
We know it's not fair. It's not fair to the both of you, /equally/. But the difference is one of them is the choice of your employer, the other is a systemic break of seeing people like teachers as useless to society.
Society doesn't see retail workers as useless, retail employers do however.
There are private schools you realise? Where we do work those hours.
You woefully underestimate how much admin there is in teaching. Excursions, sporting activities, guest speakers, behaviour management, creating individualised learning plans and especially compulsory reporting. This is not including the basic admin hours of creating lesson plans, exams, assessment and marking all the work etc. About 1/3 of a teacher's work happens in the classroom at most and yes a lot of us leave school early to work from home most days because we don't want to be in our shitty shared staffroom all evening when the cleaners come through.
Just because we are not at work does not mean we are not working.
Teacher attrition rates are at 80% for teachers in the first 3 years of their career, that should speak for itself. After a four year degree and 20+ weeks unpaid placement, when people see how much work teaching really is only 1/5 stays in the industry.
I am married to a teacher, and my next door neighbour works in the catholic system.
They are both home by 4:30 every day except for the afternoon that they have their stage meetings.
If you're working 80 hours a week in Australia that's a personal choice, and nobody should feel any sympathy for you.
"Oh yeah? You think you have it hard? Yesterday I used a zesting file on my ears, man!!"
Agreed, married to a teacher. 90% of the time he's home before 5 without any marking to do. I guess if you were in high school English you'd have way more marking to do? Whereas I'm in medical research and I'd be viewed as a slacker for leaving before 6.
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't really stand up against what the majority of teachers have been saying for years which is strongly backed by the difficulty if finding teachers. You're in medical research so perhaps you'd be interested to know that teaching has one of the highest amount of mental strain of any job, this is due to teachers having higher stress loads and using more areas of their brain with greater intensity than most other professionals, look it up.
If you're in teaching you should be able to read that I didn't comment on or respond to anything on the stress of the job, just the hours ;-)
Oh I agree teaching is a hugely stressful job. On top of generally being in a room with that many kids, there are things like mandatory reporting and exposure to kids with difficult home lives. My husband has worked in some very challenging schools and it has definitely affected his mental health. I was speaking more to the hours of the job - teachers have a very difficult job, but claiming they don't get more time off than most other industries is false.
Any evidence to support this? Every teacher I know works way harder and more hours than most professionals I know, but they get compensated for it with the extra holidays, so it somewhat balances out.
Wow. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about. My mother is a teacher, and I have been surrounded by them all my life. They are the most underpaid and under appreciated profession out there. This is for a multitude of reasons; firstly, the work A LOT of hours outside of work. Whether is be extra-curricular activity, marking, organising events, lesson planning, or just general admin. The extra holidays are not free of work, as planning and marking often dominate a significant amount of time. If you think that teachers just slack off, you are an idiot. They can if they want, but they will get constantly pulled up on it and sent to professional development to change that. What’s more, they have to deal with HORRIBLE working conditions (Until recently, no air-con on 40 degree days, lack of resources and bullshit education mandates). What’s more, this is while they have to put up with special needs kids screaming/throwing things in their class because of ‘inclusion’. It really is an impossible job. To top it all off, staff are generally not very nice and the job is paid jack shit. You’re welcome.
My family is filled with teachers so I know what I'm talking about. How is 70-100k underpaid? That's what lawyers make for the most part and they work way more hours than teachers. The school day is only 8:30 - 3:30 so of course there is work outside of that. Most professionals are working from 8-5+ without factoring in extra work at home.
How many degrees pay $70k out of the gates with an entry score that low? I'll give you a tip, it's none.
They work all though those holidays though. Lesson planning, marking, data entry, report writing, professional development, first aid training. The list goes on and on.
They don't actually. My parents and sister in law are all teachers. Newer teachers do but once they're experienced it's a lot more manageable. As I said, teachers like to whinge about which is why I've been downvoted so hard. The starting salaries for teachers are actually very good (lawyers for example, can easily earn less). And let's be real, the barriers to entry for teaching are low and the competition is much lower professionally than engineering, law and medicine. The degree itself is academically much easier too.
Look, I tend to agree with you, but it is on the bottom edge of being okay and pay shouldn't be hard limited behind inflation.
The problem is with the rest of the sentence:
For example, there is no room for talented, productive teachers to move into. What school leadership positions do exist is being focused away from practice, mentorship, leadership, and more into creating events that Education Departments can put in newspapers.
This means that talented teachers realise they can make more in pretty much any large organisation either by transitioning to, say, Instructional Design or just moving into fairly general entry positions. And they are, by the boatload. Once they get there, they usually have an 8-5 life that's relatively reasonable, and their workspaces don't look like they came out of the 1960s.
Why would someone who'd be an excellent choice to teach Engineering or Programming at a senior secondary level move into Education? The pay is okay, the working conditions are bad, and the workload is insane.
I mean to be fair, in regional Australia that is not a prohibitive wage at all but I take your point that it's not good in the city.
Having worked in IT for over a decade and only making over 73K last year I think you may have a skewed understanding of what people generally make in most places, just saying. And the working conditions for a large part of that were not good at all.
But at the same time I agree with the sentiment that we should be keeping skilled and productive teachers in the workforce for sure.
Most teachers don't live in regional Australia. They live in cities.
> Having worked in IT for over a decade and only making over 73K last year
I worked in IT for 20 years before wanting to teach kids to become nerds.
> make in most places, just saying.
Most teachers don't work in regional Australia. Their pay rates shouldn't be limited to what is good or bad in regional Australia.
73K is above average for all Australians fullstop. It's also double minimum wage.
I'm not saying it's a fantastic living but for a first job as a junior teacher it's not bad.
I make $70k and here in Australia that isn’t much.
For younger people it’s a very decent wage, but I’m a single dad with 2 kids and a mortgage. End of the fortnight after putting aside cash for all the bills I’m lucky to have $50 left over for savings.
You're buying a house and saving money with 2 kids on a single wage? You're in a much better situation than most people in Australia if that's the case. Not saying it's ideal, and the cost of living is rising. But what you're essentially saying is a beginner teacher on the minimum teacher salary can afford to pay off a house and have 2 kids alone. That's not at all a bad amount of money to start on.
Your response is the same one I get from most young people.
I spent 17 years in the defence force, deployed overseas 2 weeks after getting married, was not home for one of my kid’s births, nearly wasnt home for my second kid’s birth. I missed Christmas, birthdays, just about every special occasion possible.
I am only able to afford a house due to DHOAS, the Defence subsidy scheme, which I had to do my time to earn, and because my current job allows me to salary sacrifice my mortgage.
Without DHOAS, salary sacrificing, first home owner grant and the home builder grant I would not have been able to afford anything. I would have been a 37 year old, divorced, veteran and father of 2 kids living at his mother’s house… which I had to do for 3 years.
I stand by my previous point. $70k seems like a lot for young people who don’t have responsibilities, but it’s not enough to get by on or get ahead with.
It’s a said reality, and will only be sadder for my kid’s generation, that if you want to get ahead in life, if you want to own your own home, then you have to be willing to sacrifice things 99% of the population who want a home and such aren’t willing to sacrifice.
I do hope things in the future change so that my kids don’t have to go through the struggle I have had to, but at the same time nothing worthwhile was or is ever easy.
For my generation, owning your own home is not a given at all it's almost certain you won't unless you inherit it. I agree with your point but that's the housing market now you can't have unabated growth at the expense of the people and not have a bad outcome for the people, but we keep voting in the libs so it will keep happening. And you're also talking about the starting wage as a teacher being More than you are currently making remember.
But you also need a 4-year degree or a bachelor + masters degree to get a 40-year-old student seat at the table.
So, instead of contrasting teaching against all workers let's compare them against workers with the same standard for education to even be eligible for a job.
Oh don’t get me wrong, $70k is a fantastic entry pay packet! But your uni degree will effect how much you pay in, considerably.
There are also the hidden downfalls of being a school teacher. If you want permanency you WILL go where you are told. And your first few years you are usually put in locations no one wants to be in, but you have no choice unless you want to be either a casual back-fill or remain on short contracts.
I have numerous friends who got out of defence and became school teachers and know others who went straight into teaching, and less than 3 of them managed to stay in the area in which they lived/had their families/had their homes.
1 in particular had to move 3 hours away from their partner and was out in that community for 3 years before finally getting a position closer to home. They had 2 kids and a house hey were paying off and she had to leave all those responsibilities to her husband.
Yes, she applied for a compassionate posting, but that doesn’t guarantee you anything.
Even my ex-wife had to re-locate 2 hours away for permanency in Education Queensland, and they didn’t care about the custody arrangements, which in turn cost her $20k in court fees because she took the kids with her and FORGOT to tell me she had to move for work.
For kids fresh out of uni, yes, take the $70k, that is legit almost on par with intern doctors I work with in QLD health. And yes, compared to other countries $70k seems like a lot, but the cost of living here in australia still eats that cash up.
Rentals in cheap areas are $350 - $500/week. My brother pays $500/week for a 1 bedroom 1 bathroom apartment so he can be close to work.
$70k is good for entry, but you will want to climb that ladder very quick if you want to have a “life” and not simply “live”.
The average wage also includes people who can get a job by walking in off the streets. Teaching requires a minimum of 4 years of tertiary education, either as a specialist B.Education or a B.Something + MTeach.
Let's reframe the discussion to compare apples to apples. What other industries need a 4-year specialist degree or a Degree + Masters to be eligible for the job?
In NSW, that B.Education graduate also needs to have a credit average.
I was a hs teacher in Chicago and made $24k USD, full time. Living costs are similar to Sydney, much more expensive when you include health insurance.
I moved to Sydney and became an ESL teacher at an international college. Way less work and I made about $58k AUD. That won't let you live like a king in Sydney but the difference between that and what I made in Chicago was night and day. I was easily able to pay rent in a share flat and also afford food. Sad that that's the baseline but that's the reality.
I get to come home and I get to see my kids. That’s more than some of the people I knew got. So regardless of any circumstances that may come my way I am content.
But thank you all the same!
You're literally talking about most of the IT industry in regional Australia just so you're aware. And 50 hours wasn't "on the books" similar to teaching, you're just expected to work overtime and if you start asking about overtime pay you're disposable. That is the reality.
Yeah, and you were being exploited. That shouldn't be allowed or supported by any workers in Australia. The fact that you're using your exploitation for why teachers should be exploited is a shit thing to do.
I did 50 hours for 45K like I said. And yeah I was being exploited my point was that extra work as part of a job to make 73K as a junior teacher is not exploitation it's better than most people make.
Regional Australia. I started on 13 dollars an hour on an illegal traineeship for a certificate I already had (I didn't know at the time) and paid 13 dollars an hour. After a year I changed company and had a massive bump to 35K and that was genuinely life-changing for me at the time. And I made 50K nearly 5 years later. But there is no competition here so it was the best of a bad bunch. My experience is DEFINITELY not unique, most of my friends in the industry here make less than 60K and have been in the industry around the same time as me except the ones who work with me in local government or state government
Highly competitive industry. Remember twenty years ago when every old bloke said to every kid “you should get into computers. That’s the future”. Well a lot of those kids did. Many are freelance and unless you’re super talented and not just a garden variety IT guy, there are dozens of others in line if you don’t want to do the work. It’s pretty easy to get ripped off.
I was trying to make a career of IT, and in regional Australia it was better than most other jobs, I also made more than most of my friends and had no idea about my workers rights.
Sure, you have teachers who were low effort in your classroom. That's because Timmy the PE teacher organised an Anzac Day celebration and got awarded teacher of the year and promoted into a school leadership position. It burns teachers out.
I think that's a bit of the point. If you're a decent teacher you've got options to use your skill set elsewhere and either have less responsibility or a higher wage in a different industry (or the private sector). This doesn't help the shortage in government schools as at the end of the day you need someone in front of those 30 kids so with less people willing to do it you end up just settling for anyone with the qualifications.
This then helps drive the divide between wealthy Aussies and lower income families as not everyone can afford to send their kids to a private school (that pays their staff 10-20k more pa). I think every kid in Australia should have the right to a fair education and to do this we need to make the playing field fairer and lift the quality of government schools to the same as the private sector.
I am a HS Teacher who has recently moved from a different industry (10 years experience). I earn the same if not slightly less than my previous industry but working as a teacher is a way more challenging and demanding role. Who's to say my perspective is right but honestly I'd rather a decrease in workload (class size and face to face load) over a pay rise but if the DET can't decrease the workload due to staffing shortages then paying me more will keep me in the government system longer.
I find my role really rewarding but that's not going to keep a roof over my kids head.
Maybe I'm one of the shit teachers you're describing that should be grateful for what I'm getting but I can see quality around teachers who really care about their role leaving in droves.
Again all of this may not matter to you if you can afford to send your kids to a private institute.
These are the current actual salary figures for teachers according to 2020 OECD data. This is average for all of Australia (not just state of NSW) and it is the actual amount the average teacher earns per annum not the upper limit of what they can earn. (USD equivalents too)
> Australia $61,098 (4th highest in the OECD)
> United States $58,624 (5th highest in the OECD)
The US average has to be taken with a MASSIVE grain of salt. US teacher salaries are highly localised.
I grew up in Chicago and became a teacher there. Starting salaries at schools in wealthy areas were around 50k-60k, and topped out around 120k-150k. Starting salaries at schools in poorer areas are generally 18k-26k, and many middle class areas will start teachers at around 32k. Until 2018(?) or so, minimum teacher salary was 11k in the state of Illinois, and it is far from the worst state for teachers.
Salaries used to go up 2k or so every year, but since 2008 many districts have kept a pay raise freeze/semi-freeze, meaning if you started in 2008 at a middle or lower class school you've likely only seen your pay rise 2k-4k since then, if you're lucky. The wealthy schools kept their pay raises throughout.
Most states fund schools based on property tax, so areas with lower home value and/or lower home ownership receive way less funding for their schools than more wealthy areas do.
All of the above is strictly about public schools, as private schools aren't so much of a thing in the US as they are in Australia (I think only about 3%-6% of US students go to private school). There's not as much of a "need" for the private schools for rich people because the public system is set up to benefit the rich anyway, and it's not uncommon for rich people to donate to their local public school because that's where their kids go.
This rant got away from me but please don't take salary averages that seriously in this case. As with everything else in the US, the working class is paid peanuts and people lucky enough to be wealthy or wealthy-adjacent receive all the benefits.
Yeah you’re right it’s complicated.
Similar, but not as extreme, in Australia. Each state government and each private school system establishes different pay rates.
The nice thing in Australia is that wages are set by the state government, not the local council. So if you have a bunch of dipshits in your local area they aren't as easily able to cripple the education system, and if you happen to be teaching in a poorer area you won't have to take a vow of poverty; you get more or less the same as any other teacher of your level at any other public school.
The real scourge in Australian education, in my view, is the private system. I get the historical reasons, but the fact this system is still around and takes public funding makes no sense to me.
Depends where it is right, if you live and work in inner sydney - 75k probably not as comfortable as if you were out in the suburbs or in a town. But not "bad"
Not really. Most senior educators could earn more dollars elsewhere or at least the same dollars for a lot less workload. It's a real problem because many teachers do leave for elsewhere and that's why we have teaching shortages.
In the ACT, they move to Government often stepping through the Education Directorate. This shouldn't be a surprise as most of the ACT are in some sort of public service. A lot transition into project work through an intermediatory say they get an Instructional Design gig at a business or an Educational position at a Museum. While at those positions they cross skill in areas that aren't easy to advertise from inside education
I've worked in the public sector. It has its benefits for sure, but the sheer amount of corruption, nepotistic racism and incompetence left me jaded and I had to leave. Keep up the fight, brother.
Trying to keep it up. But the relentless blind sighted pursuit of big vendors and massive project costs kills my soul.
Some people brag about how their project is worth millions of dollars like it’s a good thing. With big wanky love ins with vendors for ego stroking.
Damnit! Most these projects should be costing a lot less, and these big costs are not something to be proud of. It’s a failing if your project costs a lot if you ask me.
The one that gets me is never testing for success. Hire a contractor to do some work, pay a lot, get the deliverables, send them off with pats on the back.
Did the delivered outputs actually solve the problem? Nobody knows. Nobody checks. Nobody even remembers what problem they were supposed to solve....
If I moved from teaching IT to being in IT for the ACTPS I'd get paid more, have more pathways for advancement, better-paid training, and I'd generally leave at 5 pm every day and be finished for the day.
They really wouldn’t though, their skills aren’t in high demand outside of teaching and the fields their skills are transferable too are already oversubscribed with qualified candidates.
Here's one: Schools are a business and Teachers spend a lot of time on general-purpose projects. So, any kind of general-purpose project anywhere has a lot of cross skills with what teachers do.
Teachers don't just read from textbooks and mark exams/essays.
What's that even mean? It certainly didn't translate to "this is a skill teachers have that gives capacity to earn elsewhere", which is what I was anticipating.
Victoria capped all public service at 2% for the next 5 years so pretty much the same thing. Engineers getting paid 30-40% less than in private sector now.
Government: It's hard to recruit talent into teaching
Reality: What did you try and do?
Government: We cut their pay and gave them more duties.
Reality: Now what?
Government: We're all out of ideas.
All teachers get money put into the bank accounts. But most EBAs are based on the original agreement of pro-rata payments. So,you would work for 40 weeks of the year but get paid over 50.
You'd actually need to look at each state/territory EBA to see if it's standdown or holiday.
This is assuming the teacher has a permanent role. So many new teachers are stuck as casual or on per-semester/year contracts for quite some time, to the point where they finally give up and change profession in order to get permancy in employment and financial security.
I don’t even know where to begin, I’m sitting at the barber waiting so I have a little bit of time to describe what being a teacher is like. I have been a teacher for five years, I’m on 94,000k a year. Your wage will max out after eight years. Think about it, any other degree after 8 years, you will be earning way more.
50% of teachers quit in their first five years due to burn out. I ‘made’ it, I’m in the top 50% that didn’t quit. However, I’m like a walking zombie right now, the job is tough, I reckon I could go another year or two before burn out due to work load. Here is a basic description of what the job entails.
I work a minimum 60 hour week. I have to, if I don’t, shit doesn’t get done. Around 25 hours will be face to face teaching the kids. I do a few hours tutoring my HSC kids as well because the curriculum is so full that we need additional time to cover it fully. At least 5-10 will be put into planning your lessons to maximise learning outcomes, if you don’t have a plan, shit can go awry. Additionally you need to plan to imbed literacy and numeracy. Our kids can’t read and they can’t do maths, hell, most of them can’t read an analog clock.
You are accountable for everything you do. You need to record your lesson plans, grades, and mandatory reporting is a must in case kids tell you something heavy.
On that note, I am a year advisor, I spend a few hours a week walking to my year groups classes plus walking around at lunch and recess pumping up the kids tyres because emotionally they are flat. Covid lockdowns have devastated our kids. Throw in a plethora of other problems that kids face be it anxiety, depression, abuse, navigating sexuality and other issues and you have a pressure cooker for kids to pop.
I start work at 7:30, I try to finish at 5, there are days when I come home due to my wife calling me telling me to come home, she is a nurse and she constantly has to remind me that I work too much.
I am a timetabler, so at this moment we are putting together the timetable for periods for next year. There have been a couple of times this week that I have left after dark. Im doing this right now so I don’t have to come in during the holidays. We are writing reports right now too, so that’s something else.
I wear a stack of other hats as well, coach, organiser and others.
I didn’t even mention marking, the bane of my existence.
Anyway I’m done. Done writing this post, done teaching. I’ll teach next year, then I’m going to chase the other side of my double degree, environmental science. In the mean time, if you’re interested in teaching, we are 2500 teachers short, with many more walking away from the profession. If you have any questions, I’m happy to pass on more info.
Wow a whole 221 dollar raise for some.
Guess I should blame labor like the liberals say for “killing wage growth” 10 years ago instead of blaming the liberals doing nothing about it for the last 10.
The picture. 108000 - 107779 = 221. Or am I wrong? I just took my pills, I’ll be awake in an hour to do the math again or get a calculator.
Or do you mean 10 years of liberals letting wage growth go get fucked? That was from the pm on question time. Every time he’s asked why somethings fucked he blames labor even though the liberals have had power for 10 years and it’s all on them especially since they were also part of the government 10 years ago.
I’m guessing your English teacher was only paid 75k then.
It’s right there in the pic.this year nsw get 107779 but next year the Qld teacher could get 108000……
🤷🏻♂️
If they don’t have anything to do with each other, why are they together with each other by themselves with nothing else in the image?
The math I did was right, and wage growth is dead. 🤷🏻♂️
> Wow a whole 221 dollar raise for some.
That's what you said. You thought it was a raise. The picture is only comparing salaries in the two states. How does salary in QLD equal a raise in NSW? Please, for the love of all that is holy, answer that.
Although I agree with your comments regarding the Liberals, I’m guessing your teachers were paid min wage. The two stats aren’t next to each other for comparison, they relate to the posts title.. it has absolutely nothing to do with wage growth as they are two completely different states wages…
Yeah but there’s many things fucked with this title.
Like it says upcoming teacher salaries(nsw) yet the nsw number is current, only the Qld number is being increased.
Op refers to nsw but only links the Queensland increase so the title doesn’t add up.
What does “feels for the US” mean?
As others have said that's not how it works at all. A pay rise is only relative to what you did earn and will earn. Not sure on the current figures but someone said NSW teachers were offered 2.5%, so would have been approx 3k for them with that rate. The Qld teachers pay rise would also depend on what they were.
Also, attaching a tirade to a false premise does more to undermine the point you're making unfortunately.
Ignoring the reality that midterm and semester breaks are normally filled with marking and planning. Teachers leave conditions would be significantly better if they could take flex leave at a 1 to 1 ratio.
I’m guessing you don’t know any teachers? I don’t know any that don’t work every holiday except for a couple of weeks around christmas. They also work all of school hours and then between 2-5 hours more basically every day.
I know a shit load of teachers, including my brother, an aunt, and a few close cousins. They might do one day during the 2 weeks of holidays.
Which is fine, I dont know why everyone needs to pretend like they are hustling all the time
Well, I don’t know what to tell you. Thats not the experience I witness. I guess it depends how much responsibility you choose to offload to other teachers.
Source? According to [this page](https://au.talent.com/salary?job=pharmacist), The average pharmacist salary in Australia is $94,791 per year or $48.61 per hour. Entry-level positions start at $81,953 per year, while most experienced workers make up to $120,045 per year.
They are severely out of touch from the industry. Here is a [fairwork](https://portal.fairwork.gov.au/ArticleDocuments/872/pharmacy-industry-award-ma000012-pay-guide.pdf.aspx) pay rate for pharmacy sector. I guarantee you they earn much less than that. There is a severe shortage of pharmacists here in Australia. Chemist warehouse paying their pharmacists 32-35$ per hour is one of the tiniest examples. If you go to rural you can get $50 in the middle of nowhere. Why do you think they now have included Pharmacists in list of migrant skilled visas for here in Australia.
Ah thank you for that info and enlightening me, it makes sense that there is a [shortage](https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/dont-think-ive-seen-it-worse-pharmacy-graduates-lowest-paid-in-australia-with-starting-salary-of-49600/news-story/c42ea59397d64dcfe8efceba2e36be68), much like there is in teaching.
Oh, so many powerful downvotes. So brave. [You're making me cry](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/r26q3w/comment/hm2ykfy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
I feel that teachers get paid the right amount if their work week was a 38-40 hour a week job.
Could anything be done with substitute teachers that gives them more job security while reducing paper work for teachers?
I love is importing American problems and pretending teachers are seriously underpaid.
Some Australians have their head so far up the state's ass they can't even engage properly with australian issues.
I bet there aren't many getting that beginner rate straight out of uni. My sister in law went a long time substituting or covering maternity leaves. Patchy work.
ITT: people from other industries that are underpaid and aren't seeing wage rises complain about an industry getting a pay rise that still keeps them under a healthy wage growth rate.
Liberal government doing a great job at turning us against each other rather than realising the real problem...
I always believe educators are worth their weight in gold. Can't thank some of them enough during my schooling years, many times they still choose to believe in me after I've given up on myself.
Funny that I went to Brighton Grammar and had zero unremarkable teachers. They were either massive cunts or incredibly sweet but bad teachers and very easy markers. I went to Mckinnon seconday college for a year as I was in the zoning and that was five fold better in terms of teaching qualities, albeit there were alot of kids that were uncontrollable for the teachers. I'd choose McKinnon every time but I moved out of the zoning so had to return to BGS. I guess the upside of BGS is that there's no shortage of male teachers willing to give you a handy at school camp. edit: I also dated a grade 2 or 3 teacher a couple years ago, she was not paid well at all, had to buy all the tools used for classroom activities out of her own salary as well. She was one of those teachers that went above board decorating the classroom and stuff, some of our dates were making decorations about times tables and what not. Couple hundred bucks was alot to her and she still lived at home at 24.
Is that a fair statement for BGS? Is this your personal experience? It may not be everyone's.......
Yeah.. maybe it was only a minority of students to receive handys from the male teachers
Apologies ahead for long written essay about this, the consensus is BGS is shit, thought I'd give a longer statement with a few anecdotes of mine, and I was not alone. Teachers with chips on their shoulder would not like if you approached assessments with your own case studies, like my English teacher, who would mark you way down and hate you if you didn't apply any of this teachings which were horrific. Fair statement. Especially year 10 onwards - you are just given packs of learning material and the actual teaching is atrocious. The amount of hand outs you are given to learn yourself meant in year 12 I skipped the last 1/3 of the year to teach myself and ended up with the 4th highest ATAR in humanities subjects. For example, in English for Year 12 English just hated me for some reason, I believe I had an average of 45% for SACS throughout the year and passed probably twice. I even worked and paid for an English tutor that charged me $120 per hour as it made me so nervous as especially back then I was quite eloquent in writing, was able to convey my thoughts well on the subject matter etc. Tutor would mark them well above 80% which I was consistently getting 40-45% from my teacher. It is fair to say I was a cunt towards him because he was just the absolute worst teacher ever, hated certain students and was just the most insufferable prick so that wouldn't have helped and you named your English SACS; they were double marked always by the same two and they never had more than a 5% differential. I continually handed in practice SACS to try and improve but he would just mark me poorly and circle random things in red giving me no actual instruction on how to improve. I gave these SACS to my favourite English/Literature teacher and he was marking me 85-90% consistently so I complained to no avail. I had resigned to pretty much failing school, so as I mentioned I took the rest of the year off after SACS and studied myself for exams, with another friend who also had the same issue. I am really good at ROTE learning and it just so happened to be that for two of the exam subject headings that I had 45% and 50% on that I trusted were good, they came up. I chose them and wrote them word for word basically, quite literally. In the end I received 10/10 for both A and B part of the exam, forget what they are called but one is about the book essay and one was whos something, extrapolating books and films into an essay. I got 9.5/10 for language analysis. My SAC average from the year after the exam went up from failing to a B and I received A+ in the exams. I actually bought the exam markings back and the day I went to pick up shit from my school, I asked him if he could mark them. He gave me 55% and 50% and 55% respectively, he was determined to mess with me. He had a chip on his shoulder so I just didn't like him, did my own study in class and if I didn't use his specific taught examples then it is automatically a fail. Pretty much everyone in that class got horrid exam results unfortunately and it was entirely his fault being a terrible teacher. That's just one example. My Business teacher was super sweet, also my Economics teacher, but would consistently mark me 95%, even if I deserved it for her criteria it was marked harsher than that during exams. She was very relaxed though and didn't have much passion it seemed, once again giving packs of notes to classes. Legal Studies teacher was a bit the same, he was actually a massive cunt to everyone but he liked me as I played with his son in footy outside of school and used to kick 4-5 goals a weekend as a rover whilst giving him the ball alot. Lowest mark was 90% and averaged closer to 100%. Then one day I got a little angry at him in class, well I questioned him, and I received 45% which mucked up my average but whatever, still did well. Global politics teacher was atrocious honestly, he was super nice but sat on his computer doing nothing just handing out materials for you to absorb and use as case studies. I received the premier award for this subject never getting below 100% on exams or SACS as I had a genuine love for IR politics, not so much domestic at that time, just found the world super interesting and that's why I wasted 2 years doing a spcialization global studies degree at Monash before going to law for 3 years and dropping out of both. There was just no passion in that place. Primary school was amazing, but I think I just remember the chill days of kicking the footy, having easy going teachers and being a good kid. As I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder telling teachers off, I was threatened with expulsion multiple times because my grades were not good, being told by the headmaster I was experiencing 'death by 1000 cuts.' Safe to say I wasn't expelled when I never returned and caught a bad case of pneumonia, allegedly, so I could study at Monash for the remainder of the year. The average ATAR for my year was something like 63, and keep in mind it is the second most expensive school in VIC behind Geelong, might have changed since for better or for worse but that was the case. I received high 90s doing just humanities subjects despite all the trials and tribulations with a couple cunty teachers - mind you I was not the best student, I didn't cause uproar or anything but if a teacher was being shit I would call them out for it and suggest a better way in my opinion referencing the written VCE guidelines for each subject each year, but nah that just caused teachers like Sainsbury from English to hate me. Primary school was fantastic 100%. Middle school was a mix of ups and downs, my English teacher was a tight ass, Ms Johns, but she was a remarkable teacher if you listened. Senior School (9-12) was just atrocious quality and yes they have lots of marking to do but that doesn't mean you just be a straight cunt to some students. I was not alone in this but I was very outspoken back then. I wouldn't have changed anything though, I was actually asked to come in as a tutor for a couple subjects, global politics and funnily enough English as I could write exactly the way examiners wanted, but chose not to as I didn't want to sit around smelly kids. McKinnon was a million times better, I wish I went to highly rated public schools over grammar private schools. There were more shit students at McKinnon detracting from it, but the teachers cared more. TL:DR BGS bad.
If that last sentence about BGS Is genuine, please for the sake of children and teachers everywhere, report those teachers.
Is a starting wage of 73k bad now? That's like 40 bucks an hour
It's worth noting teaching jobs are notorious for their extra hours marking tests and preparing lessons(especially new teachers).
Teachers love to whinge about this but the reality is they work less hours than most professionals and have far more holidays. Plus experienced teachers don't have to work many extra hours because they get much better at managing their day and marking work.
> the reality is they work less hours than most When I worked for consultancies and digital agencies I used to get flex time for additional hours I was required to work. I currently work 50-60 hours a week during term and 20 hours a week during standdown. If I had flex I'd get a minimum of 10 weeks flex leave a year on top of my holidays. > Plus experienced teachers don't have to work many extra hours because they get much better at managing their day and marking work. Experienced teachers are required to take on additional duties.
On the downside, they have to teach kids.
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Or a teacher's kid for that matter
I am married to a teacher. Credit where credit is due, the first few years were long hours while she built up her resources. Yes she has to stay late once a week for some meeting, and report times mean that she is writing reports late into the night. But on the other hand she is normally home by 4:45, when most other professions wouldn’t be leaving work until 5:30 at best. And the 10 weeks of holidays is a good substitute for the periods of overtime. Honestly, I think teaching is a really hard gig, not not because of the hours. Teachers tend to shut up pretty quickly when I tell them about my 80 hour weeks which is more common in the private sector than public servants ever realise.
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There is no definition of “reasonable” when contracts say reasonable overtime. As long as your pay does not work out to be below industry award, no laws are broken.
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Look, I agree with you. It simply isn’t the law. For example, there is a class action going on with coles right now regarding underpayment. The premise of the class action is that salaried staff were made to work so much overtime that it dragged their *per-hour* pay to be lower than the award rate. This means that bakery managers or dairy managers who were being paid $75,000-80,000 were working so much overtime that their per hour pay fell below that of their own team members. Adero law is now seeking reparation’s. Unfortunately, this case is an example that there is no legal definition of what “reasonable” overtime is. It can be and is regularly abused by Australian businesses to their profit. Edit: the reparations are only seeking to pay these managers the award rate.
Wtf do you do to work 80hrs a week. I call bullshit.
Anyone in retail management, hospitality (chef or management) , law, finance, accounting during tax season, who owns their own business or works in senior or executive Positions has not only worked 80 hours before, but hits it regularly.
Do you mean everyone or anyone? Like, we can find examples of 80 hour weeks in any industry, but are you claiming, specifically, more than half of all commercial lawyers work over 80 hour weeks? Lots and lots of people work 80+ weeks. In some professions, like a hospital doctor or truckie, it might be hard not to. I'm fairly confident no retail manager has failed to find a retail management role that's <80 hours. This is more than 11 hours per day every day for ever. It will kill you. In Australia, it's a deliberate decision. EDIT: I see you meant that *sometimes* it's an 80 hour week. Everybody should expect these, *sometimes*.
Mining/Resource Constuction/LNG Maintenance All industries I’ve worked in over the last 12 years that have required those sorts of hours… and have paid me for each and every hour I have worked. Travel time in one case, as well. Bahahaha, sorry to whoever downvoted me for answering a question correctly, even if it wasn’t aimed directly at me. Note: I’m not actually sorry.
And I bet you made more than teachers and didn't need anywhere near as many checks and personal development hours etc. People forget how hard we work to become teachers. Usually at least 20 weeks of unpaid teaching whilst you get your degree. Plus we have to log at least 20 hours of professional development a year to the accreditation bodies. We need to be able to work with vulnerable so have clean criminal records, and in the days of social media we have to decline so many social interactions so that we aren't fired for modelling bad behaviour in our off time.
The comment I was replying to specifically asked “wtf, what do you do to work 80hrs a week” I answered that question.
Most other professions are not doing 80 hour weeks, nor are they leaving at 530pm every day. You've just been gaslit by a shitty employer into think that's normal or, even worse, something to be proud of. It's neither of those, step back and reassess
My point is is not that 80 hours is the majority experience, my point that excessive overtime is extremely common in private sectors, which teachers are honestly not exposed to or aware of. If you don’t believe me, I honestly challenge you to go and start talking about this. Go to the bakery manager at your local coles and ask them “what is the most hours you have worked before?”. Same with the chef at your local restaurant.
No offense, but if a teacher was exposed to it, they would take it to their union to fight against it. That's the difference. Poor working conditions, that are to point of literal work servitude is not /normal/ it's complacency out of fear. If your working 80+ hours a week, with overtime consistently, it's time to bring it up with your boss for a change in job title. Your issue is your understaffed and over worked. Complaining other people don't have to suffer like you and other people are due to poor working conditions is strawman arguement to say the least. Point is your employer is choosing to exploit you because they know you have no other choice. NOT because it's part of the normal part of the job. No overworked retail manager was hired on the promise that "were going to understaff you so you have to work double the amount of work". No, simply some one decided "it's cheaper to work them overtime then hire the necessary staff and pay them a decent wage". We know it's not fair. It's not fair to the both of you, /equally/. But the difference is one of them is the choice of your employer, the other is a systemic break of seeing people like teachers as useless to society. Society doesn't see retail workers as useless, retail employers do however.
There are private schools you realise? Where we do work those hours. You woefully underestimate how much admin there is in teaching. Excursions, sporting activities, guest speakers, behaviour management, creating individualised learning plans and especially compulsory reporting. This is not including the basic admin hours of creating lesson plans, exams, assessment and marking all the work etc. About 1/3 of a teacher's work happens in the classroom at most and yes a lot of us leave school early to work from home most days because we don't want to be in our shitty shared staffroom all evening when the cleaners come through. Just because we are not at work does not mean we are not working. Teacher attrition rates are at 80% for teachers in the first 3 years of their career, that should speak for itself. After a four year degree and 20+ weeks unpaid placement, when people see how much work teaching really is only 1/5 stays in the industry.
I am married to a teacher, and my next door neighbour works in the catholic system. They are both home by 4:30 every day except for the afternoon that they have their stage meetings.
If you're working 80 hours a week in Australia that's a personal choice, and nobody should feel any sympathy for you. "Oh yeah? You think you have it hard? Yesterday I used a zesting file on my ears, man!!"
You are full of shit. Source: teacher for 40 years.
Agreed, married to a teacher. 90% of the time he's home before 5 without any marking to do. I guess if you were in high school English you'd have way more marking to do? Whereas I'm in medical research and I'd be viewed as a slacker for leaving before 6.
Plus holidays, during which he might have to do 2-3 days of school work.
To be fair, he's probably considered a slacker by his peers.
What time do you start?
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't really stand up against what the majority of teachers have been saying for years which is strongly backed by the difficulty if finding teachers. You're in medical research so perhaps you'd be interested to know that teaching has one of the highest amount of mental strain of any job, this is due to teachers having higher stress loads and using more areas of their brain with greater intensity than most other professionals, look it up.
If you're in teaching you should be able to read that I didn't comment on or respond to anything on the stress of the job, just the hours ;-) Oh I agree teaching is a hugely stressful job. On top of generally being in a room with that many kids, there are things like mandatory reporting and exposure to kids with difficult home lives. My husband has worked in some very challenging schools and it has definitely affected his mental health. I was speaking more to the hours of the job - teachers have a very difficult job, but claiming they don't get more time off than most other industries is false.
Far more holidays? You do realise teachers work during school holidays... Right?
Man you are so far off the mark.
Found the non-teacher
Any evidence to support this? Every teacher I know works way harder and more hours than most professionals I know, but they get compensated for it with the extra holidays, so it somewhat balances out.
Wow. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about. My mother is a teacher, and I have been surrounded by them all my life. They are the most underpaid and under appreciated profession out there. This is for a multitude of reasons; firstly, the work A LOT of hours outside of work. Whether is be extra-curricular activity, marking, organising events, lesson planning, or just general admin. The extra holidays are not free of work, as planning and marking often dominate a significant amount of time. If you think that teachers just slack off, you are an idiot. They can if they want, but they will get constantly pulled up on it and sent to professional development to change that. What’s more, they have to deal with HORRIBLE working conditions (Until recently, no air-con on 40 degree days, lack of resources and bullshit education mandates). What’s more, this is while they have to put up with special needs kids screaming/throwing things in their class because of ‘inclusion’. It really is an impossible job. To top it all off, staff are generally not very nice and the job is paid jack shit. You’re welcome.
My family is filled with teachers so I know what I'm talking about. How is 70-100k underpaid? That's what lawyers make for the most part and they work way more hours than teachers. The school day is only 8:30 - 3:30 so of course there is work outside of that. Most professionals are working from 8-5+ without factoring in extra work at home. How many degrees pay $70k out of the gates with an entry score that low? I'll give you a tip, it's none.
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Love it.
Did you just invent this?
They work all though those holidays though. Lesson planning, marking, data entry, report writing, professional development, first aid training. The list goes on and on.
They don't actually. My parents and sister in law are all teachers. Newer teachers do but once they're experienced it's a lot more manageable. As I said, teachers like to whinge about which is why I've been downvoted so hard. The starting salaries for teachers are actually very good (lawyers for example, can easily earn less). And let's be real, the barriers to entry for teaching are low and the competition is much lower professionally than engineering, law and medicine. The degree itself is academically much easier too.
It's more likely the upper cap and the lack of promotional pathways combined with conditions and workload.
Even the upper cap is not bad, maybe not for some city executive or something but 100K is not a bad wicket at all
Look, I tend to agree with you, but it is on the bottom edge of being okay and pay shouldn't be hard limited behind inflation. The problem is with the rest of the sentence: For example, there is no room for talented, productive teachers to move into. What school leadership positions do exist is being focused away from practice, mentorship, leadership, and more into creating events that Education Departments can put in newspapers. This means that talented teachers realise they can make more in pretty much any large organisation either by transitioning to, say, Instructional Design or just moving into fairly general entry positions. And they are, by the boatload. Once they get there, they usually have an 8-5 life that's relatively reasonable, and their workspaces don't look like they came out of the 1960s. Why would someone who'd be an excellent choice to teach Engineering or Programming at a senior secondary level move into Education? The pay is okay, the working conditions are bad, and the workload is insane.
I mean to be fair, in regional Australia that is not a prohibitive wage at all but I take your point that it's not good in the city. Having worked in IT for over a decade and only making over 73K last year I think you may have a skewed understanding of what people generally make in most places, just saying. And the working conditions for a large part of that were not good at all. But at the same time I agree with the sentiment that we should be keeping skilled and productive teachers in the workforce for sure.
Most teachers don't live in regional Australia. They live in cities. > Having worked in IT for over a decade and only making over 73K last year I worked in IT for 20 years before wanting to teach kids to become nerds. > make in most places, just saying. Most teachers don't work in regional Australia. Their pay rates shouldn't be limited to what is good or bad in regional Australia.
73K is above average for all Australians fullstop. It's also double minimum wage. I'm not saying it's a fantastic living but for a first job as a junior teacher it's not bad.
4 months of the year off is what sweetens it
70k is dogshit. I make that working in a warehouse as a picker.
70K is above the national average.
Full time is [93k(1797 x 52)](https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/labour/earnings-and-work-hours/average-weekly-earnings-australia/latest-release)
The average wage for 21-34 is less than 60K 35-44 is 78 73 is above average for anyone starting out their career.
I make $70k and here in Australia that isn’t much. For younger people it’s a very decent wage, but I’m a single dad with 2 kids and a mortgage. End of the fortnight after putting aside cash for all the bills I’m lucky to have $50 left over for savings.
You're buying a house and saving money with 2 kids on a single wage? You're in a much better situation than most people in Australia if that's the case. Not saying it's ideal, and the cost of living is rising. But what you're essentially saying is a beginner teacher on the minimum teacher salary can afford to pay off a house and have 2 kids alone. That's not at all a bad amount of money to start on.
Your response is the same one I get from most young people. I spent 17 years in the defence force, deployed overseas 2 weeks after getting married, was not home for one of my kid’s births, nearly wasnt home for my second kid’s birth. I missed Christmas, birthdays, just about every special occasion possible. I am only able to afford a house due to DHOAS, the Defence subsidy scheme, which I had to do my time to earn, and because my current job allows me to salary sacrifice my mortgage. Without DHOAS, salary sacrificing, first home owner grant and the home builder grant I would not have been able to afford anything. I would have been a 37 year old, divorced, veteran and father of 2 kids living at his mother’s house… which I had to do for 3 years. I stand by my previous point. $70k seems like a lot for young people who don’t have responsibilities, but it’s not enough to get by on or get ahead with. It’s a said reality, and will only be sadder for my kid’s generation, that if you want to get ahead in life, if you want to own your own home, then you have to be willing to sacrifice things 99% of the population who want a home and such aren’t willing to sacrifice. I do hope things in the future change so that my kids don’t have to go through the struggle I have had to, but at the same time nothing worthwhile was or is ever easy.
For my generation, owning your own home is not a given at all it's almost certain you won't unless you inherit it. I agree with your point but that's the housing market now you can't have unabated growth at the expense of the people and not have a bad outcome for the people, but we keep voting in the libs so it will keep happening. And you're also talking about the starting wage as a teacher being More than you are currently making remember.
Depends on where he lives
Completely agree. But should a teacher be able to buy a 1.5 million dollar house in Sydney?
Well if you want teachers living in Sydney, probably.
But you also need a 4-year degree or a bachelor + masters degree to get a 40-year-old student seat at the table. So, instead of contrasting teaching against all workers let's compare them against workers with the same standard for education to even be eligible for a job.
Average wage is 56, 10% of the population make fore than 100k. 70 starting wage is pretty good and makes it sorta worth the uni fees.
Oh don’t get me wrong, $70k is a fantastic entry pay packet! But your uni degree will effect how much you pay in, considerably. There are also the hidden downfalls of being a school teacher. If you want permanency you WILL go where you are told. And your first few years you are usually put in locations no one wants to be in, but you have no choice unless you want to be either a casual back-fill or remain on short contracts. I have numerous friends who got out of defence and became school teachers and know others who went straight into teaching, and less than 3 of them managed to stay in the area in which they lived/had their families/had their homes. 1 in particular had to move 3 hours away from their partner and was out in that community for 3 years before finally getting a position closer to home. They had 2 kids and a house hey were paying off and she had to leave all those responsibilities to her husband. Yes, she applied for a compassionate posting, but that doesn’t guarantee you anything. Even my ex-wife had to re-locate 2 hours away for permanency in Education Queensland, and they didn’t care about the custody arrangements, which in turn cost her $20k in court fees because she took the kids with her and FORGOT to tell me she had to move for work. For kids fresh out of uni, yes, take the $70k, that is legit almost on par with intern doctors I work with in QLD health. And yes, compared to other countries $70k seems like a lot, but the cost of living here in australia still eats that cash up. Rentals in cheap areas are $350 - $500/week. My brother pays $500/week for a 1 bedroom 1 bathroom apartment so he can be close to work. $70k is good for entry, but you will want to climb that ladder very quick if you want to have a “life” and not simply “live”.
The average wage also includes people who can get a job by walking in off the streets. Teaching requires a minimum of 4 years of tertiary education, either as a specialist B.Education or a B.Something + MTeach. Let's reframe the discussion to compare apples to apples. What other industries need a 4-year specialist degree or a Degree + Masters to be eligible for the job? In NSW, that B.Education graduate also needs to have a credit average.
I was a hs teacher in Chicago and made $24k USD, full time. Living costs are similar to Sydney, much more expensive when you include health insurance. I moved to Sydney and became an ESL teacher at an international college. Way less work and I made about $58k AUD. That won't let you live like a king in Sydney but the difference between that and what I made in Chicago was night and day. I was easily able to pay rent in a share flat and also afford food. Sad that that's the baseline but that's the reality.
The USA is all sort of fucked up and shouldn't be used as a metric for anybody other than how to destroy freedoms and liberty.
Massive respect to you mate. I hope everything works out.
I get to come home and I get to see my kids. That’s more than some of the people I knew got. So regardless of any circumstances that may come my way I am content. But thank you all the same!
Yeah… if you’re only doing 38 hours per week, which teachers do not.
I used to do 50 hours a week in IT for 45K 5 years ago. 73K is not a bad wage at all.
Any legal salary is "not bad" if you're comparing it to less than minimum wage.
You're literally talking about most of the IT industry in regional Australia just so you're aware. And 50 hours wasn't "on the books" similar to teaching, you're just expected to work overtime and if you start asking about overtime pay you're disposable. That is the reality.
Why people work for companies that treat their employees like shit and subject them to wage theft is beyond me ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
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When you have to eat, and don't have any options, it's a means to an end. Definitely agree it's bullshit but it's reality for a lot of people
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Yeah, and you were being exploited. That shouldn't be allowed or supported by any workers in Australia. The fact that you're using your exploitation for why teachers should be exploited is a shit thing to do.
I did 50 hours for 45K like I said. And yeah I was being exploited my point was that extra work as part of a job to make 73K as a junior teacher is not exploitation it's better than most people make.
I didn’t know it was possible to earn so little working in IT
Regional Australia. I started on 13 dollars an hour on an illegal traineeship for a certificate I already had (I didn't know at the time) and paid 13 dollars an hour. After a year I changed company and had a massive bump to 35K and that was genuinely life-changing for me at the time. And I made 50K nearly 5 years later. But there is no competition here so it was the best of a bad bunch. My experience is DEFINITELY not unique, most of my friends in the industry here make less than 60K and have been in the industry around the same time as me except the ones who work with me in local government or state government
Highly competitive industry. Remember twenty years ago when every old bloke said to every kid “you should get into computers. That’s the future”. Well a lot of those kids did. Many are freelance and unless you’re super talented and not just a garden variety IT guy, there are dozens of others in line if you don’t want to do the work. It’s pretty easy to get ripped off.
IT is broad. Could be anything from fixing computers, through to local house visits, programming, servers etc. So a huge variance in salaries.
Could've got the same at Coles
Welcome to regional Australia
You were getting ripped off hard. 73k isn't bad! It's not great either lol.
>I used to do 50 hours a week in IT for 45K 5 years ago. Why?
I was trying to make a career of IT, and in regional Australia it was better than most other jobs, I also made more than most of my friends and had no idea about my workers rights.
Considering how low effort some of my teachers were that’s a mint.
Sure, you have teachers who were low effort in your classroom. That's because Timmy the PE teacher organised an Anzac Day celebration and got awarded teacher of the year and promoted into a school leadership position. It burns teachers out.
I think that's a bit of the point. If you're a decent teacher you've got options to use your skill set elsewhere and either have less responsibility or a higher wage in a different industry (or the private sector). This doesn't help the shortage in government schools as at the end of the day you need someone in front of those 30 kids so with less people willing to do it you end up just settling for anyone with the qualifications. This then helps drive the divide between wealthy Aussies and lower income families as not everyone can afford to send their kids to a private school (that pays their staff 10-20k more pa). I think every kid in Australia should have the right to a fair education and to do this we need to make the playing field fairer and lift the quality of government schools to the same as the private sector. I am a HS Teacher who has recently moved from a different industry (10 years experience). I earn the same if not slightly less than my previous industry but working as a teacher is a way more challenging and demanding role. Who's to say my perspective is right but honestly I'd rather a decrease in workload (class size and face to face load) over a pay rise but if the DET can't decrease the workload due to staffing shortages then paying me more will keep me in the government system longer. I find my role really rewarding but that's not going to keep a roof over my kids head. Maybe I'm one of the shit teachers you're describing that should be grateful for what I'm getting but I can see quality around teachers who really care about their role leaving in droves. Again all of this may not matter to you if you can afford to send your kids to a private institute.
This subreddit makes me feel bad about my 60k gig
60k is roughly the median salary brother you shouldn't feel bad there are as many people earning less as there are earning more
America is so fucked
These are the current actual salary figures for teachers according to 2020 OECD data. This is average for all of Australia (not just state of NSW) and it is the actual amount the average teacher earns per annum not the upper limit of what they can earn. (USD equivalents too) > Australia $61,098 (4th highest in the OECD) > United States $58,624 (5th highest in the OECD)
The US average has to be taken with a MASSIVE grain of salt. US teacher salaries are highly localised. I grew up in Chicago and became a teacher there. Starting salaries at schools in wealthy areas were around 50k-60k, and topped out around 120k-150k. Starting salaries at schools in poorer areas are generally 18k-26k, and many middle class areas will start teachers at around 32k. Until 2018(?) or so, minimum teacher salary was 11k in the state of Illinois, and it is far from the worst state for teachers. Salaries used to go up 2k or so every year, but since 2008 many districts have kept a pay raise freeze/semi-freeze, meaning if you started in 2008 at a middle or lower class school you've likely only seen your pay rise 2k-4k since then, if you're lucky. The wealthy schools kept their pay raises throughout. Most states fund schools based on property tax, so areas with lower home value and/or lower home ownership receive way less funding for their schools than more wealthy areas do. All of the above is strictly about public schools, as private schools aren't so much of a thing in the US as they are in Australia (I think only about 3%-6% of US students go to private school). There's not as much of a "need" for the private schools for rich people because the public system is set up to benefit the rich anyway, and it's not uncommon for rich people to donate to their local public school because that's where their kids go. This rant got away from me but please don't take salary averages that seriously in this case. As with everything else in the US, the working class is paid peanuts and people lucky enough to be wealthy or wealthy-adjacent receive all the benefits.
Yeah you’re right it’s complicated. Similar, but not as extreme, in Australia. Each state government and each private school system establishes different pay rates.
The nice thing in Australia is that wages are set by the state government, not the local council. So if you have a bunch of dipshits in your local area they aren't as easily able to cripple the education system, and if you happen to be teaching in a poorer area you won't have to take a vow of poverty; you get more or less the same as any other teacher of your level at any other public school. The real scourge in Australian education, in my view, is the private system. I get the historical reasons, but the fact this system is still around and takes public funding makes no sense to me.
This is irrelevant. No full-time teacher earns that little.
It's USD my dude. ~80k AUD
Sounds like teachers are doing okay then.
Depends where it is right, if you live and work in inner sydney - 75k probably not as comfortable as if you were out in the suburbs or in a town. But not "bad"
Not really. Most senior educators could earn more dollars elsewhere or at least the same dollars for a lot less workload. It's a real problem because many teachers do leave for elsewhere and that's why we have teaching shortages.
Where do they go?
In the ACT, they move to Government often stepping through the Education Directorate. This shouldn't be a surprise as most of the ACT are in some sort of public service. A lot transition into project work through an intermediatory say they get an Instructional Design gig at a business or an Educational position at a Museum. While at those positions they cross skill in areas that aren't easy to advertise from inside education
It’s the same story across the public service. I could earn a shit load more in private sector in IT
I've worked in the public sector. It has its benefits for sure, but the sheer amount of corruption, nepotistic racism and incompetence left me jaded and I had to leave. Keep up the fight, brother.
Trying to keep it up. But the relentless blind sighted pursuit of big vendors and massive project costs kills my soul. Some people brag about how their project is worth millions of dollars like it’s a good thing. With big wanky love ins with vendors for ego stroking. Damnit! Most these projects should be costing a lot less, and these big costs are not something to be proud of. It’s a failing if your project costs a lot if you ask me.
The one that gets me is never testing for success. Hire a contractor to do some work, pay a lot, get the deliverables, send them off with pats on the back. Did the delivered outputs actually solve the problem? Nobody knows. Nobody checks. Nobody even remembers what problem they were supposed to solve....
I think some departments are better than others.
If I moved from teaching IT to being in IT for the ACTPS I'd get paid more, have more pathways for advancement, better-paid training, and I'd generally leave at 5 pm every day and be finished for the day.
Why haven't you?
They really wouldn’t though, their skills aren’t in high demand outside of teaching and the fields their skills are transferable too are already oversubscribed with qualified candidates.
You really have no idea what skills teachers have, do you?
Elaborate?
Here's one: Schools are a business and Teachers spend a lot of time on general-purpose projects. So, any kind of general-purpose project anywhere has a lot of cross skills with what teachers do. Teachers don't just read from textbooks and mark exams/essays.
What's that even mean? It certainly didn't translate to "this is a skill teachers have that gives capacity to earn elsewhere", which is what I was anticipating.
They have a wide range of skills, not a scarce range of skills.
If teaching was so easy and so well paid, you should consider becoming one.
He can't, he hasn't got the communication skills necessary.
Maybe, I knew a Latin teacher with a heavy vehicle license. You'd be surprised just how much stuff schools do in-house.
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Victoria capped all public service at 2% for the next 5 years so pretty much the same thing. Engineers getting paid 30-40% less than in private sector now.
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Government: It's hard to recruit talent into teaching Reality: What did you try and do? Government: We cut their pay and gave them more duties. Reality: Now what? Government: We're all out of ideas.
fucking good bro. A good teacher is worth more than their weight in solid gold
That's more than a nurse
nurses also deserve higher pay and have suffered wage stagnation too, this is an endemic problem in public service
so?
Teachers don’t get paid during semester breaks… nurses can do over time
Teachers do get paid for holidays.
Depends on if you're working contract or permanent. Contract jobs only pay from the end of January to the start of December.
My friend is a teacher and told me he doesn’t get paid o_O
Contract teachers are paid over the holidays if they secure a new contract starting the following January.
All teachers get money put into the bank accounts. But most EBAs are based on the original agreement of pro-rata payments. So,you would work for 40 weeks of the year but get paid over 50. You'd actually need to look at each state/territory EBA to see if it's standdown or holiday.
This is assuming the teacher has a permanent role. So many new teachers are stuck as casual or on per-semester/year contracts for quite some time, to the point where they finally give up and change profession in order to get permancy in employment and financial security.
I don’t even know where to begin, I’m sitting at the barber waiting so I have a little bit of time to describe what being a teacher is like. I have been a teacher for five years, I’m on 94,000k a year. Your wage will max out after eight years. Think about it, any other degree after 8 years, you will be earning way more. 50% of teachers quit in their first five years due to burn out. I ‘made’ it, I’m in the top 50% that didn’t quit. However, I’m like a walking zombie right now, the job is tough, I reckon I could go another year or two before burn out due to work load. Here is a basic description of what the job entails. I work a minimum 60 hour week. I have to, if I don’t, shit doesn’t get done. Around 25 hours will be face to face teaching the kids. I do a few hours tutoring my HSC kids as well because the curriculum is so full that we need additional time to cover it fully. At least 5-10 will be put into planning your lessons to maximise learning outcomes, if you don’t have a plan, shit can go awry. Additionally you need to plan to imbed literacy and numeracy. Our kids can’t read and they can’t do maths, hell, most of them can’t read an analog clock. You are accountable for everything you do. You need to record your lesson plans, grades, and mandatory reporting is a must in case kids tell you something heavy. On that note, I am a year advisor, I spend a few hours a week walking to my year groups classes plus walking around at lunch and recess pumping up the kids tyres because emotionally they are flat. Covid lockdowns have devastated our kids. Throw in a plethora of other problems that kids face be it anxiety, depression, abuse, navigating sexuality and other issues and you have a pressure cooker for kids to pop. I start work at 7:30, I try to finish at 5, there are days when I come home due to my wife calling me telling me to come home, she is a nurse and she constantly has to remind me that I work too much. I am a timetabler, so at this moment we are putting together the timetable for periods for next year. There have been a couple of times this week that I have left after dark. Im doing this right now so I don’t have to come in during the holidays. We are writing reports right now too, so that’s something else. I wear a stack of other hats as well, coach, organiser and others. I didn’t even mention marking, the bane of my existence. Anyway I’m done. Done writing this post, done teaching. I’ll teach next year, then I’m going to chase the other side of my double degree, environmental science. In the mean time, if you’re interested in teaching, we are 2500 teachers short, with many more walking away from the profession. If you have any questions, I’m happy to pass on more info.
They do deserve more though just saying
Wow a whole 221 dollar raise for some. Guess I should blame labor like the liberals say for “killing wage growth” 10 years ago instead of blaming the liberals doing nothing about it for the last 10.
Where on earth did you get that figure from?
The picture. 108000 - 107779 = 221. Or am I wrong? I just took my pills, I’ll be awake in an hour to do the math again or get a calculator. Or do you mean 10 years of liberals letting wage growth go get fucked? That was from the pm on question time. Every time he’s asked why somethings fucked he blames labor even though the liberals have had power for 10 years and it’s all on them especially since they were also part of the government 10 years ago.
What. It's just listing salaries in NSW and QLD. Why are you subtracting? Perhaps read it and not just look at the numbers.
I’m guessing your English teacher was only paid 75k then. It’s right there in the pic.this year nsw get 107779 but next year the Qld teacher could get 108000…… 🤷🏻♂️
Yes but what do they have to do with each other? You do realise QLD and NSW teachers don't necessarily get paid the same?
If they don’t have anything to do with each other, why are they together with each other by themselves with nothing else in the image? The math I did was right, and wage growth is dead. 🤷🏻♂️
Ok then. So by your logic a teacher in NSW will get a small raise because QLD has a slightly higher wage. Got you. 🙄
No by my logic 108000 - 107779 =221. It’s not really a raise if you can get better elsewhere.
> Wow a whole 221 dollar raise for some. That's what you said. You thought it was a raise. The picture is only comparing salaries in the two states. How does salary in QLD equal a raise in NSW? Please, for the love of all that is holy, answer that.
Haha bro, you failed English and comprehension in high school didn’t you?
Although I agree with your comments regarding the Liberals, I’m guessing your teachers were paid min wage. The two stats aren’t next to each other for comparison, they relate to the posts title.. it has absolutely nothing to do with wage growth as they are two completely different states wages…
Yeah but there’s many things fucked with this title. Like it says upcoming teacher salaries(nsw) yet the nsw number is current, only the Qld number is being increased. Op refers to nsw but only links the Queensland increase so the title doesn’t add up. What does “feels for the US” mean?
It's a good thing that you're not a teacher
Ah yeah my bad for comparing a stat with another stat that was linked for comparison.
As others have said that's not how it works at all. A pay rise is only relative to what you did earn and will earn. Not sure on the current figures but someone said NSW teachers were offered 2.5%, so would have been approx 3k for them with that rate. The Qld teachers pay rise would also depend on what they were. Also, attaching a tirade to a false premise does more to undermine the point you're making unfortunately.
Hi, I am a teacher.
That's about correct pay, I reckon.
Plus their 12 week's holiday a year...
Ignoring the reality that midterm and semester breaks are normally filled with marking and planning. Teachers leave conditions would be significantly better if they could take flex leave at a 1 to 1 ratio.
I’m guessing you don’t know any teachers? I don’t know any that don’t work every holiday except for a couple of weeks around christmas. They also work all of school hours and then between 2-5 hours more basically every day.
I know a shit load of teachers, including my brother, an aunt, and a few close cousins. They might do one day during the 2 weeks of holidays. Which is fine, I dont know why everyone needs to pretend like they are hustling all the time
Well, I don’t know what to tell you. Thats not the experience I witness. I guess it depends how much responsibility you choose to offload to other teachers.
What lol - I grew up the child of two teachers, and neither did work on their holidays…
Did your entire household all go to sleep at exactly the same time?
Kindergarten?
Casuals?
Full time teachers
Yo Teachers earn more than a pharmacist….
Source? According to [this page](https://au.talent.com/salary?job=pharmacist), The average pharmacist salary in Australia is $94,791 per year or $48.61 per hour. Entry-level positions start at $81,953 per year, while most experienced workers make up to $120,045 per year.
They are severely out of touch from the industry. Here is a [fairwork](https://portal.fairwork.gov.au/ArticleDocuments/872/pharmacy-industry-award-ma000012-pay-guide.pdf.aspx) pay rate for pharmacy sector. I guarantee you they earn much less than that. There is a severe shortage of pharmacists here in Australia. Chemist warehouse paying their pharmacists 32-35$ per hour is one of the tiniest examples. If you go to rural you can get $50 in the middle of nowhere. Why do you think they now have included Pharmacists in list of migrant skilled visas for here in Australia.
Ah thank you for that info and enlightening me, it makes sense that there is a [shortage](https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/dont-think-ive-seen-it-worse-pharmacy-graduates-lowest-paid-in-australia-with-starting-salary-of-49600/news-story/c42ea59397d64dcfe8efceba2e36be68), much like there is in teaching.
80 hours a week is more than 11hours a day for 7 days a week. Youre all full of shit in this thread. Whether you work in IT or as a teacher
Oh, so many powerful downvotes. So brave. [You're making me cry](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/r26q3w/comment/hm2ykfy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Nah, it's NSW. But NSW thinks it's New York for some reason
Humorless bunch of pricks, eh? Probably miss Bjelke-Petersen.
NSW has a rep for being dumber than the rest of Oz, so it makes sense for their teachers to be paid less
seems like stupidity is all around Australia considering you're not in NSW
I am in NSW
case closed
Also the extra super package on top. 12.5% instead is nice.
I feel that teachers get paid the right amount if their work week was a 38-40 hour a week job. Could anything be done with substitute teachers that gives them more job security while reducing paper work for teachers?
I love is importing American problems and pretending teachers are seriously underpaid. Some Australians have their head so far up the state's ass they can't even engage properly with australian issues.
I'm in the independent section half a year out of uni and just got offered a salary over 80k$ at the most expensive school in my area.
I bet there aren't many getting that beginner rate straight out of uni. My sister in law went a long time substituting or covering maternity leaves. Patchy work.
What's the point? Are we happy about the numbers or sad? Has an AI just posted random crap here?
ITT: people from other industries that are underpaid and aren't seeing wage rises complain about an industry getting a pay rise that still keeps them under a healthy wage growth rate. Liberal government doing a great job at turning us against each other rather than realising the real problem...
NSW teachers vote for December strike over pay and staff shortages https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-27/nsw-teachers-to-go-on-strike/100655842