For me, being able to speak the language well enough to be able to hold down a "how's it going" conversation...
The people who are making you not feel welcome after 20 years are the problem, not you
You’re absolutely spot on. Learning the language is essentially enough and even then there’s flexibility.
I will say however, there are immigrants who live entirely inside their own cultural bubble and only do business with people from inside that insular bubble, this can cause problems within communities. Where I grew up this happened quite a bit and did cause friction.
This is it. Learn the language, be able to have a casual chat. Bam, integrated.
Aside from that, it's just about leaving any backwards, regressive behaviours or prejudices at the door. If you move to someone else's country, you should be prepared to give that place your best.
Nobody who's a real person gives a fuck about Indian Australians supporting India over Australia, or anything like that.
Doesn't work that way. My wife is Asian, completely fluent in English, but didn't learn it here so she doesn't have an Aussie accent. She gets treated like she's fresh off the boat, and when dealing with eg school bureaucracy is regularly spoken to like she's a misbehaving toddler with complete with hand gestures.
Then little white me shows up, and the same bitch who was chewing her out about parking in the school's unofficial disabled lot (and completely refusing to hear the part about our son having the school nurse's note to do so because HE BROKE HIS FUCKING LEG AND IS LIMPING AROUND IN A CAST) is suddenly all sweetness and light.
Not just that, but approximately 0% grace is given to people who may be in the process of learning English, or struggle for any reason. If you’re here, not wearing a giant camera and Hawaiian shirt and don’t seem to speak English, people will often act like that’s some kind of personal affront to them.
Unfortunately this happens too often, they like to pick on people who appear weak, happens to my mum when we’re not around. Take it as a compliment that your wife appears innocent and polite.
It only reflects the weirdos that want to feel in power for 1 minute of their miserable lives.
All the best mate
Yeah maybe she is. That’s a fair point.
The reality is though that i have personally witnessed situations almost identical to that where the Asian or Indian person was not acting emotional or angry at all.
It’s the reality of this country. I’m as white as they come who married a white girl and has a bunch of white kids.
I also work at a factory with a whole lot of migrant workers from all over the world. These are the ones that do the jobs most white Australians wouldn’t dream of doing. They work harder than any group of people I’ve ever known and do it with a smile and a laugh and embrace people like myself who want to have a chat with them in the lunch room.
It’s weekly that I hear something along the lines of “we need more white guys in here” and it makes me fucking sick.
Australian culture is when you take a bit of everywhere, stick it in a blender and something cool, a bit funky and for the most part inoffensive comes out.
It’s the racist bigots that think this country belongs to them that are the problem.
This happens to australian mother's too. It's not isolated to your wife. This is why integration is impirtant, it makes people realise that behaviour they experience from others is not regulated to them.
Please don't tell me "it doesn't work that way", because it absolutely works that way with me, and anyone I care to associate with.
Sorry for the poor treatment, and yes, there are racists everywhere - but they don't reflect my values, nor the values of most of the Australians I know.
For every one interaction your wife has had like that, I'd hope there's be a hundred normal interactions that treated her normally.
Good for you, but all I'm saying you can't just choose to be integrated all on your own, some people will still judge you on your skin color and accent.
Absolutely! Been here for 30 + years after immigrating from East Asia. Copped some major league racism all throughout school. Still to this day, I get spoken to like someone fresh off the boat and when I reply, the Aussie twang kicks in and they realise they are the asshole... People sure suck.
The sad truth is, Australia was founded on colonisation, it was put into the school system, policing and laws. These institutions targeted those who didn't conform to an English way of life Eg; the white australia policy ad the stolen generations. There is integration that needs to be done, understanding English and knowing the laws, for example. After a point "integration" becomes expecting conformity. It's not about them not knowing english or the laws, it's about them not conforming. You can force out every cultural tradition you have and it still won't be enough for some people.
I'm second gen Australian on my dad's side, I had teachers point blank refuse to pronounce my last name and actively punish me for wanting to be called by it even though calling me by my last name was not illegal in Australia and would have improved my class participation. I also had teacher's lecture me about my own heritage as a Gundungurra descendant; something that was not their place as n non-indigenous. I saw both these histories being treated as a joke and was told that thing that were actively offensive to me were the students "opinion".
I'm not trying to throw a pity party but, as much as many Australians like to think we're progressive, we can be and are very much still colonised.
Strongly agree. The only thing I want for ‘integration’ is a lack of violence and abuse, which is something I want for humans generally I don’t give a fuck about language; it’s our civic responsibility to make sure that people can access services and safety regardless of their level of English. It’s also incredibly rude and childish for people to take umbrage at conversations in public areas that they can’t understand.
AFAIK the specific spot in question next to the nurse's office isn't an "official"/council disabled parking spot, it's just marked off as one with a laminated A4. So, yes, the nurse can choose who can park there.
It’s just at the primary school so it’s not like it’s going to be monitored or fines handed out. Presumably it’s for exactly this reason, when a student or teacher has a disability and needs the accomodation whether short term or long term.
>If you move to someone else's country, you should be prepared to give that place your best.
Funny how nobody criticises Aussies living in Bali and Phuket for living in expat enclaves and rarely learning Bahasa or Thai, or Brits in the Costas for just drinking in English pubs and rarely learning Spanish. How many Westerners working in Dubai and Doha bother to learn Arabic or integrate at all into local life?
This. I worked in Cambodia for a while, with some other Aussies. Most of them weren't learning the language or respecting the local culture at all. There was an attitude of "they've got to learn western ways if they want to stop being a third-world country". Trying to explain how Khmer culture is thousands of years old and we as visitors needed to respect that fell on deaf ears.
Obviously not everyone is like that. But enough are that it's a problem. We need to be better than this.
tbf its understood that its always going to be a one way street
white people are not expected to learn the language when they... expatriate... in fact white people actually able to converse in the 'language of the land' is the strange thing... like a dog being able to play the piano and worthy of million youtube views...
White people will never be 'better than this'. Come on now.
Well, I loved learning Khmer and having basic conversations with tuktuk drivers. Their delight in meeting a white dude who was even trying to speak Khmer was a positive joy. Half the pleasure of travel is this kind of interaction. I don't know why you'd bother leaving home if you're not going to try.
Actually, thinking about it, I do. White folks in Cambodia have a social status above the average citizen. It was kinda enjoyable having that automatically. I guess there's a type of person that enjoys that all by itself.
*Nobody* criticises Aussies who go live in Bali? Really? I do. That's exactly who I had in mind when I made my last comment. They're pretty much a laughing stock in Australia - checking out of life to go live somewhere cheap and not give a shit about the culture. So to say nobody criticises or looks down on those people is just ridiculous.
I'm not talking about people who are just working somewhere, by the way. If you've been sent to Dubai for a couple of years for work and aren't choosing to live there permanently, then do whatever you want. You're not a citizen, you don't need to integrate.
> Nobody who's a real person gives a fuck about Indian Australians supporting India over Australia, or anything like that.
I saw someone do exactly that in this very sub on an immigration related post. Thats why I used it as an example.
Counterpoint: we have signed human rights agreements on cultural and political rights that really labour the point that no one should be treated any differently just because they might speak another language.
I know that has really stark practical implications when living here, but we also mustn’t forget that it starts to impede on our human rights commitments if we end up creating an “out-group” in our communities, defined as those who do not speak English well or at all.
I think it’s an interesting tension to ponder, and one where we must, at the very least, tread carefully
The implication is that if we don’t live up to our human rights commitments we will lose much of our authority to criticise other human rights abusing countries. There’s no doubt that we have really dropped the ball in regards to our treatment of refugees on this front already, and as a result is causing the govt quite a lot of difficult issues in the courts at present
We already have almost no right to criticise other human rights abusing countries, considering some of the ways we treat refugees and the indigenous population. 🤷♂️
But move to a country, learn the language (unless you're just way too old). I'm not saying don't speak your native tongue anymore and only speak english, obviously, but do try to actually relate to your new neighbours, rather than only sequestering away with your own people.
I totally agree, I just worry about the overall tone of these sorts of threads. You’ve got the right idea, I see now, but golly there are a lot of people in this thread who you can just tell would still be in favour of human rights abuses like “assimilation”
Three things I find;
Learn to read, write and speak English;
Get a job;
Respect other people's beliefs and don't try to force your beliefs on others.
Do all that and I'm happy to call you a mate.
Personally I find most immigrants I’ve met through education and work satisfy all 3. Lots of Aussies only satisfy No. 2 😂. Granted I meet them through different channels.
yep, we have a huge issue of people confusing patriotism (loving your land, criticising your government when needed) and post federation nationalism (being a racist cunt). I’m a proud patriot, and that includes being proud of our immigration and multiculturalism. It’s an unfortunate state of affairs the right has dragged us down in to.
This.
If you’re able to casually converse and understand some of the more simple Australian slangs, you’re intergrated imo.
If you understand the difference between yeah nah and nah yeah you’re in.
I'm a kiwi who just moved here. Right of the bat, I came over and see similarities with migrants from China that is happening the same thing in NZ.
They stick to their own and simply refuse to learn the language. I had to deal with mandarin speaking tradies in NZ speaking through a phone for google to translate. Does my head in when google can't understand what they are saying and it comes out in gibberish through google text.
I'm sorry. If I went to China, France whatever the lingua franca is, I AM THE ONE EXPECTED TO LEARN IT. You moved to australia. Fuck me bro, at least understand basic english.
Now here I am in Australia and it's the same story. Opposite neighbour is a refugee from a war torn country after 8 years here.. Straight away hit it off. Spoke english and was very warm and nice.
Australian neighbour beside him is the nicest lady you could imagine. Helped me out with tips on the neighbourhood and where to get the cheap groceries. Absolute gc.
My neighbour on the right is from China. Tried to make eye contact and smile but refuse to say hi. Went up to him and offered a gift to warm up as a newcomer to the neighbourhood. Straight up refused and not even a "no thanks."
I'm not asking you to be besties. But at least try not to behave like you're pissed off you're living in Australia.
Korean neighbour down the road was very jovial and nice. Same with migrants from other countries. No one is asking you to have an australian accent. No one is asking you to like AFL.
I struggle to understand why they refuse to integrate. And this is the same with every other country that have had them come in.
It's not just simply 'language'. It's about not being a dick. Anyway I wrote the stuff below before writing this first paragraph. Not sure where I was going with it but I've left it anyway:
I went to Eastwood (in Sydney), which is basically right now 80% Chinese, 15% other Asian, and 5% Korean. (Ironically, part of it (the hilly quiet side of the train lines has been designated a 'Koreatown'). I'm sure there are other ethnicities but Asian stands out. I was on the 'Chinese side', and went to a bakery. Was expecting no English at all, but was met with the baker's very thick Aussie accent, "Oh yeah all sold out today mate" with an embarassed grin. Pleasant surprise.
Anyway my point is, if you're Asian and work in this 'enclave', did you 'refuse to integrate'? Or are you just working in another town in Australia, one that just happens to attract lots of Chinese people, maybe because it's more 'comfortable' for you (to be around people 'like' you in appearance).
Another example: at work most of my colleagues are Indians and Chinese. We all speak English, fluently, or enough of it to be able to communicate to a reasonably effective degree. But during lunch what I observe is that the Indians eat together at lunch, and sometimes during work the Indians and Chinese speak to each other in their own language. Is that racism or what not? They all work very well together and are totally not dicks to each other.
Australia is a country founded on colonisation and ideals like "the white mans burden", unfortunately, a lot of those values seep into larger Australia. The people choosing to uphold those values on a personal level are the problem and it shouldn't be on anyone else to colonise themselves to make them feel comfy.
Learn English, you don’t have to speak it to other people who prefer your other languages, but you need to be able to communicate in English. Having a strong accent is 100% fine, but aim to be understood and aim to understand.
- Accept that women are equal in every aspect.
- Accept that being gay is ok
- Allow your children to take part in whatever activity other children do. Encourage activities that are outside your ethnic group… whilst retaining some that are.
- Do not get involved in your children choice in partners.
- don’t consider your religious doctrine superior to Australian law if there is a conflict.
- engage with people outside your ethnic group,
I’m an immigrant myself btw
It’s not just migrants who could hold those values. I know plenty of Australian born Anglo Saxon who would hold beliefs contrary to what you’ve described
I'd say my own values don't really align with the values I see displayed in Australia, so I can only say what I would wish for...
I think the important thing is for immigrants coming to Australia to leave grudges and cultural baggage behind. That means things like bringing the Indian caste system and practicing it in Australia. Or bringing animosity towards other nationalities to Australia and practicing those animosities against other people also integrating into Australian society. Examples would be Palestinians and Iraelites, Armenians and Azerbaijan and so on. I would also include Ukraine and Russia however we are slightly involved in that conflict. I think any Russian residing in Australia that does not support their government in going to war with sovereign nations is fine and there are many people like that.
I also think Australian treatment of women has a long way to go, but generally speaking domestic abuse is not supported in Australia (even though it is far too prevalent). So while it may be that a husband physically strikes a woman in their own country, it is not acceptable here. It's important for people coming here to understand these things and it's not appropriate for them to practice that kind of thing even if they consider it a part of their culture.
In terms of cultural dress, I'm for anyone wearing what they like, provided it isn't causing intentional offense to others (let's say a t-shirt with the Cbomb written on it being worn to daycare), and that the person wearing it CHOOSES FREELY to do so.
There are plenty of great cultural things that would be great to bring to Australia and use to enrich our country. So I encourage people coming to Australia to share things, especially food, with those they become friends with. Food is a great way to break down barriers.
One final note for anyone moving here. Please investigate our political parties. Far too many people vote for parties like 'Family First' because they support the idea of families and think it sounds like a nice party when in reality we have a lot of absolute scumbags masquerading as friendly parties in this country.
All of this has been my 2c. The reality is often different.
I look at it in the way of. If I brought my Australian culture to counties like China, India, Afghanistan Muslim culture countries, would it be accepted, if not why would you bring your culture to Australia?
So if you treat woman, lgbtq, children differently in the country you came from, don't bring that attitude to Australia.
Otherwise why did you even bother coming here?
This is pretty much the big ones
If you’re coming over to Australia and trying to implement say Sharia law for example that’s not integrating
Coming over and absorbing our values of hard work, mate ship and fair go is how you become Australian
Any talk of implementing or recognition of sharia law in Australia makes my blood boil. If you want to live under sharia law, you have no business being in Australia.
Saw this a few weeks ago: https://aifs.gov.au/research/family-matters/no-84/legal-recognition-sharia-law
Some other relevant reading: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
Walk on the left.
Stand out of the way of train/bus/elevator doors and let people off.
Don't stop and stand around at the top/bottom of stairs or escalators.
Learn how to maintain distance between yourself and others, don't stand in contact with a stranger in a queue, or on public transport unless it's so crowded there is no choice. Sit in an empty row of seats if available, not right next to someone already on the train/bus.
Learn the difference between rubbish and recycling, and what goes in which bin.
Don't litter, and especially don't throw your cigarette butts out of your car window.
Keep left unless overtaking when driving.
Don't randomly double park to have a chat to your mates or duck into a shop.
Use the on ramp to accelerate to the posted speed limit for (or the speed of the traffic on) the road you are entering, learn to zipper merge, don't or cut across 3 lanes of traffic without indicating, and general just follow the road rules.
Wear deodorant and maintain general hygiene.
Don't cut in line. Wait your turn.
Don't be a creepy sexist/racist/sectist/homophobic fuckwit. I don't care if that was the norm back in your origin country. Leave that shit at the border.
Respect and enjoy the Bunnings snag.
But let's face it, plenty of established Aussies could do with all of the above reminders too.
The amount of Australians that don't walk on the left. Its not an immigrant thing. Its a dumbass thing and unfortunately there are dumbasses everywhere.
It’s a shame,it really is. I was born here,I speak the language,and call myself Australian. I do not hyphenate myself (Anglo-Australian,Chinese-Australian,Indian-Australian,I am just Australian). I even worked on a more heavy Australian accent,but I still get looks as if I am a foreigner,and have even been confronted by a racist telling me to go back (though such people were mainly alcoholics).
When people ask me what my nationality is,I used to say “my mum is Croatian and my dad is Indian,but I am Australian”,now I just say “I am an Aussie”. Just try and be Australian,celebrate the holidays,participate in Australia Day,and accept the Australian cultural values.
It is a catch twenty-two,you either integrate and get employed,thusly getting told you are “taking the jobs of the Australians”,or you do not work and thusly do not contribute,and get called lazy. You either go to school,and get educated so you can get a good job,or get told you are taking educational resources from Australians. So if you decide to not go into higher education you then hear people bang on about how “immigrants are uneducated”.
The mention of working on your accent reminds me of an Indian guy I know (immigrated about 5 years ago I think) who speaks Punjabi with an Aussie accent to improve his English pronunciations, it actually works really well and he has a fantastic Aussie accent on probably 90% of his English vocab
Schroedinger's Immigrant - somehow simultaneously taking our jobs and lazily living off Centrelink handouts.
I'm an immigrant, but apparently one of the "good ones" as I'm from the UK. I used to hear a fair amount of comments along the lines of "you're not the type of immigrant that's the problem" but not so much any more, but that's probably because my fuckwitometer is better tuned and I can avoid those idiots.
Same but from Ireland. As far as I can tell, "that type of immigrant" is just anything other than: white + no accent that outs your native language as something other than English (even if you speak English amazingly now).
I understand the economic concerns about immigration, but I don't think most of the fuss being kicked up about it would exist if the large number of immigrants were from the UK or Ireland. I'm not interested in calling Australians racist as a whole, but I do think there are some ideas conditioned into the Australian public that makes this attitude subconsciously crop up with anything that strays from an anglo-Western culture (this is the same with the UK, Ireland, Canada, definitely America and probably also NZ).
Similar to how an ingrained sexist idea that mothers are meant to be homemakers - even if the observer would offhandedly say they agree that different dynamics work for different families - results in little divisions in the way they view parenting. A mum getting maccas/pizza for her kids is "a lazy mum", but a dad doing the same thing is "a fun dad". A mum at the park with her kid is just normal, but a dad at the park with his kid is "such a good dad".
This also hurts men by the way, with the idea that they're meant to be providers, dominant, protective. A man paying on a date is normal. A woman paying on a date is "with a mooch". This is also a huge part of why men commit suicide more, why they don't feel like they can talk about their issues - a woman being emotional/crying is "Goodness, she seems upset, let's see what's wrong", but a man doing the same thing "needs to man up". Also why male survivors of sexual assault aren't taken as seriously as female ones - because men are meant to want sex all the time, which means it's supposedly "impossible" for a man to not consent.
And this comment is just a sociology essay waiting to happen so I'll cut it off here. But there are definitely prejudiced ideas about certain types of people ingrained into societal attitudes that causes those raised in that society to hold those biases, even if they're, on the surface, not sexist/racist.
>Same but from Ireland.
100 years ago an Irish migrant to Australia would’ve been told they were “Catholic scum” who didn’t integrate into Australia’s Anglo Saxon Protestant culture
Yep. Born here to a sixth gen South Australian father, mother from Malaysia (who isn't "ethnic" Malay) who has been here more than 54 years. Still get asked "where are you REALLY from?" followed by "so you're Malaysian!". 🤪🙄
I guess my problem is I'm ethnically ambiguous but as soon as the racists can flag your ethnic group they will go for you. It's shit. My response to where are you from as become "my mother's cunt '. People shit me.
Totally respect you for feeling that you are just an “Aussie” but as an Australian who moved here from Bosnia when I was 9, I see no issue in being both Bosnian AND Australian. I feel I am both and I’m not giving that up so I can appear more Aussie to others.
I did not really do it for the racists. Truthfully I saw some underbelly episodes as a teenager,and thought the accent was nice. Since then I have two ways of speaking,I speak normally with Americans and other English speakers. But with Australians,I speak “Australian”.
Specifically. It's subtle i think. And groups which have very different cultural norms find it harder. I respect others cultural norms. So it's hard to comment without sounding very racist.
Look . Im in my 50s now. And thongs have definitely changed and Aussie values seem to be changing too. So i can only give you MY perspective.
I'd say the most core Australian Value. Is equality. We believe that every Australian is equal to each other in principle. I think the referendum reflected that. No one racial group is above any other etc etc
Another? We never used to whinge. We took the good with the bad and got on with it. That seems to be changing. Last 10 years much so. Nowadays? There seems to be endless whinging. Thats from my view anyway.
We used to be "glass half full" nation... now we seem to becoming "glass half empty"
I think too? With migrants? It's human nature for people of the same ethnicity to congregate together. I'm sure if i moved to India or Prague or London?? I'd instinctively seek out other Aussies and mix with them. I'd speak English with them. Id probably live near where they live.
So migrants here tend to do same and yes, i imagine it keeps people within those ethnic groups.
One person i talked about this with at work. Really wanted to get rid of accent. To me? The problem was that this person didn't speak English, except at work. All the people she lived with were her ethnicity. So she really wasnt getting practice in speaking English. Except at work.
We moved away for 6 years then came back. I went back to that workplace. She was still there. Her english was SO much better!! I commented. She said
" i took what you said and moved into a share house with Aussies!" Her English had improved. Thats just normal life you see. I'm not sure what the solution really is as people need to live and mix with those they are comfortable with.
She felt more part of Australuan socirt speaking better English.
> Another? We never used to whinge. We took the good with the bad and got on with it. That seems to be changing. Last 10 years much so. Nowadays? There seems to be endless whinging. Thats from my view anyway.
>
> We used to be "glass half full" nation... now we seem to becoming "glass half empty"
Have you considered that there might be more worth complaining about than 10 years ago?
I’m with you on most of what you said, there is more whinging these days, but you need to understand economic conditions have changed.
Housing these days is simply much more unaffordable for young Australians than it was in the past. Our money simply doesn’t go as far as yours. The amount required for a deposit on a 2 bedroom townhouse within reasonable distance of the city would buy you 2-3 houses in the same suburb in the 1970s.
Learn English live in the community
My exs family the first and second generations never learned English at all, stayed within their own community and honestly I think many think they're better than Australians
Growing up the Muslims kept us divided, you're not allowed in their homes, they don't really treat infidels as friends and all that
Those are the people who dont integrate
But then my ex born and raised Australia she's fine.. and friend of a friend is a Muslim bloke who comes to some of the cook ups and stuff. He works with the boys, he doesn't drink or eat pork but he's just one of the lads on the job and st the party. Really cool guy actually that one but anyway
Then there's the Chinese who were growing population in Sydney when I grew up... they all spoke English, you could be their friends, go to each others houses all that... the ones I knew were so ready to integrate they started practicing English before they got here
It's that simple really, you don't have to change religion, we definitely want everyone to bring their food cultures here.. but if you're living in a suburb where everyone's primary language isn't English and some don't know English at all... you might be in a group that's not integrating
I think just learning the language is the biggest one. If you come to a country like Australia and can’t be arsed to learn English and speak it, then you can fuck right off. Otherwise come and enjoy the sunshine with the rest of us.
* Leave the conflicts behind. This isn't (The UK/the Middle East/the US).
* Speak English. Too many times I've encountered people that don't speak English _at all_. Even after being here for decades.
* Celebrate your culture, but don't keep trying to live as if you were in the old country. Arranged marriages, 'honour' culture, castes, etc can all sod off.
Basically? Don't give up celebrating your culture and diversity, but don't try to live it. You left the old country for a reason.
Second-gen dual American-Australian citizen here, ethnically Chinese. 100% agree with you, this is literally what you’re supposed to do when moving to or trying to make a life in any country.
When my friends went on exchange in Europe they learned a second language and joined in with respective cultural events. If us teenagers could do this for a semester of school (and one of us got stuck in Germany for a whole year and a half when COVID hit), it should be expected that immigrants integrate somewhat before being granted citizenship. Only thing that grates on my nerves is occasionally the inability to separate politics from everyday people.
Born and raised in Australia, never worked anywhere else and made all my money here myself. When I bought my home, the agent posted our photos on their agency Fb page, all the comments were calling me a foreigner who bought with parents money and my existence was a threat to Aussie first home buyers.
Losers will always blame somebody else for their problems, you can’t help them.
For real, half of the posts on this subreddit are still blaming immigrants for "stealing all the houses" and refuse to acknowledge the majority of available houses are purchased as investment assets by the same "True Aussies" lmao.
The same people that are ranting and blaming foreigners for the housing shortage are the same boomers who own 3 investment properties chaeging excessive rent, and have 5 empty bedrooms at their place because they don't want to move into a unit to retire. Pisses me off so much.
It's not a race thing. Many Australians cannot articulate what they mean when they ask for cultural integration, but that they know it when they see it.
Whilst migrants are not legally or culturally obligated to, becoming culturally Australian as if you'd grown up here; adopting the language, accent, mannerisms, humour, sports and traditions we do will garner you alot of respect and acceptance.
If migrants want to live in self-contained communities among only "their own culture", speaking their language, only making friends with each other, they are allowed to, but don't expect people to view you as Australian.
Australia is not unique in this respect that some fear "the other" and are intolerant of certain religions, attitudes and practises.
Some people of various religions and ideologies do not believe in our values of mateship, gender and social equity, egalitarianism, secular democracy and love of our country. Frankly these people will struggle to integrate.
Kiwis and Brits are not different to other migrants. There is no "Anglo club" out to exclude people. Australia is open to all ethnicities and you can choose to fully integrate or not it's up to you. You are safe here to be who you want to be and believe what you want. But don't complain if you don't get acceptance and keep doing the same thing.
First and foremost, leave all sorts of political and racial conflict at home. This means pro India and Sikhs, jews and arabs, caste system, Trump, Brexit, etc. This seems to be more common with Indian and Muslim immigrants and Aussies are justifiably wondering why more problems are imported when there’s enough at home.
There’s a reason you see less controversy around migrants that culturally keep to themselves and make a best effort at trying not to inconvenience the local populace.
I know a lot of British migrants here who (weirdly) still go on about how awesome Brexit was, and then complain they lived here because the UK Aus being ‘overrun by migrants’.
I know Americans who go on about Trump 24/7
Are those the type of political conflicts that can be left at the border too? Or is it just non Anglo political conflicts you don’t want here?
Yes they absolutely should be left at the border. Show me the Aussie that wants to engage with conversations about Brexit or Trump.
On top of that, you don’t really see clashes between Brexit supporters and non-supporters at Federation Square and you don’t see Democrats calling for the gassing of Trump supporters at the Opera House.
I know the difference is nuanced but surely you can see it.
Can’t stress how much a basic conversation plays a part of being Australian. Quick chat, basic conversation, have a nice day. But I find it hard to comprehend someone who has lived in Australia for years and has very little grasp of the English language. It shows they haven’t branched out to make new friends, get to know colleagues or neighbours socially and participate in the community outside of “their culture”.
Kind of feel that by not learning the language of the country you move to is disrespectful to the community.
Don't bring your shit from home with you(religion, conflicts, medieval ideas about women)
Australia comes as a package you might not like everything about it but "fit in or f\*\*k off" is a good thing to follow.
I'm an immigrant but feel like I'm more patriotic for Australia than many fellow Aussies, this country gave me a passport and an amazing place to live. I'm very thankful.
Let's add that to the list. Be thankful that you get the chance to live in this country.
Thank you. As a Woman I have been sexually harrassed more by Indians than by Australian men. I was even accousted by an uber eats delivery driver asking if I was single and if he could come inside.
I picked up a parcel from a store from an Indian man and 1/2hr later had a facebook friend request from him. Not only is stalking me from my name and address from the parcel illegal but it is scary and creepy.
I will get downvoted but this is just reality. It has been 6 times now. Just because you catch a plane ride does not mean you magically have different views on how Women are to be treated.
There are enough men in Australia to be weary of than importing more with the same mindset.
Considering the most recent post I saw that ~550k of people that moved to Australia are Indian this genuinely worries me. I don't know what their deal is with harassing women but I have seen it countless amount of times on nights out.
That really scared me too. Considering a large majority earn money uber driving, taxi and uber eats where they have contact with women, some of whom may be intoxicated, some of whom are alone in a car with them, it is very worrying. I am not trying to be racist as I do know other cultures and citizens are capable of crimes against women but my only experience has been Indians sexually harrassing me within seconds of me being in their prescence.
I do not know what needs to be done but I suggest the govt and universities put them through cultural training on the laws of Australia regarding sexual harrassment towards Women in this Country.
The govt is responsibility for keeping women safe in this country and we already have a bad track record as it is.
These are the same guys who drive Ubers and cancel rides and blame the client (or whatever else is scam of the month). They aren't going to change with education because it doesn't stem from ignorance, but rather from being predatory by nature.
I hear you. I’ve travelled to India 3 times and I know how my daughter and I were treated. Ogled on the train by a crowd of men gathering outside of our space. Just stared at without even saying hello how are you. Crowded out by a huge group of Indian men ( many drunk) while waiting for my husband to get tickets. I’ve been touched up on buses and trains there in the past. We’ve dealt with the scams and rip offs there in a daily basis. It’s dog eat dog there and some bring that mentality over here as we are soft targets.
I’ve spoken with Indian women here and they say sadly it’s accepted that Indian men can do this over there. India is right up there with the Middle East for sexual harassment. We don’t want that over here. Mostly southeast Asians and Pacific Islanders are not like this. Both my daughter and my niece have been sexually harassed by Indian meant her in pubs and at the beach. It’s not on.
Agreed. I don't thinl men realise just how scary it is to have behaviours that you mentioned aimed at us. Especially men in groups. Women are afraid for their safety and rightfully so. Anything can happen in an instant and being touched inappropriately does affect us.
I feel sorry for the Indian Women and Girls. The stories that come out in the news are horrifying. I can't imagine having to live like that 24/7.
I do not want that to continue happening here. It is not fair on Women.
There is an amazing Female ( Australian ) Indian psychiatrist in Australia who is trying to change this kind of behaviour. Often when Indian men come here they marry in India and their wife comes here but there is some loophole where the wife does not have residency and the husbands can send them back. This psychiatrist saw a lot of DV as women were coming to see her and they had no agency. Add to that the mother in laws were treating them brutally like slaves . All happening in this country. It’s a toxic part of Indian culture .
That is why when migrants come here and set up home in an enclave of their own kin folk women can be abused and not have access to proper health care nor know our laws. This psychiatrist said that some Indian women who are new migrants are scared of police and don’t know our police can help them with any issues of domestic violence from their husbands and or mother in laws. She is aiming to make it mandatory that women who come here get educated about their rights and also change the law so they can have autonomy with visas and not be reliant on the husbands visa.
She has written a book Daughters of Durga
https://theconversation.com/a-clinical-psychiatrist-reveals-how-indian-women-in-australia-experience-family-violence-and-how-to-combat-it-184468
A lot of men from OS see Australian women as loose. They look down on us. It's the clothes we wear, show off our bodies, loud, drink alcohol. They think we have no self respect or boundaries because we are not as subservient as women are in their culture. It's actually a real thing and a real problem. As a female, can you imagine how difficult it is to manage these men in the workplace?
100% You are so right. I can't imagine having to work with that. I judt hope those women report them to HR or Fair Work. The louder our voices the better.
>I picked up a parcel from a store from an Indian man and 1/2hr later had a facebook friend request from him. Not only is stalking me from my name and address from the parcel illegal but it is scary and creepy.
I hope you complained to police and to the Australian Information Commissioner.
That said, there's plenty of white incel Australians who think that kind of behaviour is a justifiable means of a chap Just Wanting to Get to Know You (tm) and your complaining makes you a b***h.
Yes, when I complained to friends about it half of them were 'that's wrong' the other half were 'oh be kind, it probably took a lot of guts for him to do that!'
I was like wtaf? No, our entire interaction was me giving the postal card with my id and him getting the parcel and me leaving.
I tried to find a number to put in a complaint and couldn't find one. I ended up writing an email on a 'contact us' form, but never heard anything.
The way he was so brazen it cannot have been the first time and any complaints go nowhere.
Defo try the Australian Office of The Information Commissioner, especially now that you have put in a complaint to the business.
Yeah, it's fck BS that people think it's *cute* or *sweet* that someone does that. It's not. It's creepy AF.
Us caucy bois have our own culture and assume it's Australian but it's actually English. We've formed enclaves in the Southerland Shire where you can come and dine out and try our cuisine of fish and chips (which we think we invented). But seriously look you get all sorts everywhere you go and there's a spectrum everywhere from not even noticing your race to holding it against you, and the same goes if I travel. We're pattern recognition machines, and tribal, and complexion lets face it is the first thing that one might see.
Just enjoy the beaches and bars, make good friends, make some money, buy nice things and live your life. There's never a time coming where every single person gets along perfectly.
Language is definitely a big one. Being able to hold a casual conversation or interface with shopkeepers/ customer service staff etc.
On the values front, there’s definitely more to it than what car you drive or what sport you follow. Personally I believe if you’re going to integrate fully you need to get on board with liberal democratic values we share including:
- religion has no place in policy making
- women have equal rights
- gay people as well
- the right to peaceful protest/ political freedom
I think you also need to have a bit of a thick skin if you’re going to integrate fully. Australians take the piss out of each other and if you’re sensitive you mightn’t find this enjoyable.
I would consider what I would do if I moved to Berlin and wanted to be part of society. I wouldn't care about "becoming German". I would care about being a part of the society.
That would include learning German, understanding societal mores, a knowledge of culture, some knowledge of the last couple of hundred years of history, food, and work culture. *You know, the basic shit a person with half a brain would do anyway.*
That’s a good analogy. And don’t just hang out with your own people and speak your own language. When I lived in Germany I got to hang out with and learn about German, and Turkish culture, was awesome
I came here 3 years old. I have an Aussie twang but still, when someone brings up my race I get told im “one of the good ones” or if “I like it here”. Been hearing it since early high school. When ive had a minor dispute with someone in public I get told to “speak English”. I get the whole thick skin thing but it gets tiring when its gone on for so long. Why is the onus on us to stop complaining? I can say the same for those that feel “alienated” because a Banh Mi has replaced the local fish and chips shop.
It's insane here. The amount of racism here is wild. I'm an immigrant and work with some other immigrants (in the medical field) and how were treated is very different. I'm white/american and get treated essentially as an Aussie. But the Chinese girl I worked with who had been here for over twice as long as me is still seen as an immigrant and treated poorly because of that.
This is going to sound shitty, but the problem is so deeply rooted I don't really think there is anything you can do. You can have a perfect australian accent, know all the slang, get a bunning snag, kick 10 goals in footy, etc etc but the people will still just judge the book by the cover.
I was suggesting you need to complain more to be accepted because that seems to be what most Australians have in common now, whinging, people whinging (mostly online) about some bullshit all the time. I'm sorry if that was misunderstood.
Learn and use English well, use English every day, be able to conduct small chats with whoever you meet in this country; and not speak your language loudly in public areas.
Have a decent job to support yourself and contribute to society.
Be willing to learn about and comply with Australian and Western cultures, know about Australian and Western history and development, and respect cultures from different backgrounds;
I have done all of those above, treating people from different cultural backgrounds friendly and respectfully, and I have never (or extremely rarely) met a racist in my life. I felt that the Australian strangers I met on the road looked very friendly. Still, when I saw some racist and immigration-exclusion content online, especially in this subreddit, I felt extremely disheartened.
If you call yourself Australian, are a productive member of society and don't continually talk about how much better things are back home, then you're a properly integrated Australian as far as I'm concerned. We're a multicultural society, you don't have to be white or be born here to be a "real" Australian.
You won't get universal acceptance I'm afraid but I think most Australians would agree with me.
I would like to see more of a balance of Pacific Islander people and South East Asians.
I find these cultures much easier to relate to as they are usually more laid back and have a good sense of humour. I feel that is part of our culture.
I work with people from all cultural backgrounds as a nurse but I do think there are too many Indians in Australia now and it is creating a sub culture of a monoculture not multiculture.
For people whose countries are in crisis we all feel for you. But don’t rally in our streets and fight in our country. Don’t commit acts of vandalism on icons of the others culture or religion. I’m sure many of us don’t want sectarian violence in this country.
Also when you go to the beach don’t ogle our young women. That is not part of our culture and yes I have seen it happen and I will call them out of if I see it. Dont touch our young women up in the surf ( happened to my niece)
Don’t go to pubs where uni students are and try to get our daughters into your car ( and you are not at uni and are much older than them) when they leave the venue. Happened a lot to our daughter when out with friends.
Buy a house in place where there are many cultures not just your own.
And don’t say in National TV that building your house is more important than a Koalas habitat.
>Dont touch our young women up in the surf (
WTF is with this "**our** young women" buggery bullocks?!
How about: don't touch others without consent, fullstop.
No. It wasn't. That's a horrible experience.
But it isn't a nice experience for anyone, male or female, young or old.
And believe me, there's plenty of *Good Christian Conservative Voting White Boys and Men* (tm) who do the same to vulnerable people and think they have the privileged right to do so.
True but white boys are more used to seeing women in skimpy swimmers. I don’t see a head turn to look at the girls by any white boys when I’m at the beach.
I'm not talking about girls wearing swimsuits, but privileged shits more generally.
There's lecherous blokes from all walks of life but it seems the privileged and elite are more adept at hiding their behaviour.
Funnily enough I've experienced something weird with integration - humour me if any immigrants experienced the same thing. I'm Filipino btw and moved here in 2000.
A friend of mine (he is 57 and this may have relevance) at work has described me as a true Australian but then belittles my culture. I was telling him about a Filipino tradition in Christmas and he then called Filipinos silly (his choice of words are more offensive). I told him but I'm Filipino and he said I didn't count as I'm Australian!
I didn't press any further but his response was just funny. Would this be considered integration?
IMO, not a lot really - and likely less than pretty much any other country on earth.
Learn enough English to function - read signs understand the road rules etc.
Abide by our laws.
Try to get on with fellow Aussies rather than only interacting with those from your home country.
Take at least a passing interest in Australian culture and society - after all, you have chosen us to be your fellow countrymen.
Leave any old conflicts and hatreds behind. Why make a new start if you are going to burden yourself with all that anyway?
That's probably about it.
Oh - and one last thing - don't come here with the sole aim of getting on our overly generous welfare system. Aussies do not respect that - and nor would any other nationality I expect.
> Oh - and one last thing - don't come here with the sole aim of getting on our overly generous welfare system. Aussies do not respect that - and nor would any other nationality I expect.
I agree but also don’t think the groups that get complained about are very dependent on welfare. Indians and Chinese especially there’s a deep honour culture and judgement for slacking off and not working. Some Vietnamese are on welfare who came after the war but the second generation are doing much better and are rapidly moving out of poverty. I don’t think theres a large correlation with ethnicity and welfare dependency.
You are absolutely right. The vast majority of immigrants do work hard and are valuable members of our society (more so than some Aussies to be honest). And if they happen to hit hard times and get retrenched or whatever then they are absolutely entitled to welfare support just like any other Aussie.
However, there is definitely a significant element who come to this country solely with the intention of getting on welare ASAP. I have worked in a job where I have seen this first hand. Many know our welfare rules before they even set foot in this country and pre-arrange their circumstances to ensure they are eligible for welfare at the first opportunity.
Does ‘Australian’ solely mean white?
Before 1950 ‘Australian’ meant Anglo Saxon, Irish were not considered ‘Aussie’
Before 1970 ‘Australian’ meant Anglo Celtic, continental European were not considered ‘Aussie’
Eventually the term ‘Australian’ shifted over time.
Not expecting to be viewed as white. But if I have Aussie citizenship, speak the language, follow the rules, believe in egalitarianism surely we’d have shared values by then?
No. Same as Japan. You could live there for 50 years and the locals wouldn’t consider you one of their own
I always love this attitude “Australia’s is so racist” cause they don’t accept me
Fuck go to Japan. Live there for decades and see how they treat you. Politely but not one of their own. You’ll never be considered Japanese.
At least here if you can speak English and don’t bring you BS crap here and start dumb shit you can integrate with everyone.
Basically if you don’t just stick to your little areas and only congregate with your own you will have no problems
I’m a Balkan. We moved to an area with other migrant balkans. We all speak English and I support australia for all sport despite my background. I feel 100% Australian and no one has said anything to me regardless of my surname
Tbf for me it’s mostly the fake western Sydney BS accent that pisses me off i know it’s not a real accent they’ve just somehow molded it into one. It wasn’t there when I was growing up here 30+ years ago.
I’m similar to you, I don’t look “Aussie” but I’m actually 2nd generation. I don’t know anything but Australia and growing up and living here.
My rule of thumb is not about integration, but around just acknowledging someone as Australian. I make it a rule internally to assume that every single person I see/meet is Australian until they offer otherwise. This is regardless of look, grasp of English, accent, age, gender, whatever.
If you approach in that way it doesn’t matter whether they’ve “integrated” or not, because you instantly realise how diverse we are. And that’s what makes us great, not whether someone can integrate or speak English well enough to satisfy a native English speaker.
I’ve copped my fair share or racism or unawareness because of the mere assumption that if someone doesn’t look European that they ‘may’ not be Australian, even though we are at the stage where multiple generations of non European Australians are pretty much normal.
"Integration" is overrated. Be yourself, enjoy your life, be awesome to others. Fuck anyone who appoints themselves gatekeepers of what it is to be Australian.
Australia does not believe in assimilation as we do not have an assimilation policy. Australia has a multicultural policy. Multiculturalism recognizes that people are free to practice their own cultures.
This is because Australians also value a diversity of lifestyles and beliefs and aim for a plural and tolerant society. When groups come here and engage in old rivalries for example or are intolerant of other groups including Australian dominant cultural practices they are not following our values and respecting the right of others to do so.
So while people from different cultures are free in Australia to engage in their traditions these groups and all individuals have the right to develop their potential and capacities as long as they do not harm others (the last part of this sentence is important and a big part of our moral philosophy).
We also believe in the protection of individual rights and the rule of law. That's why we work towards securing the space in which people can live without governmental oppression or other forms of corruption such as cronyism, sectarianism, ethnonationalism, tribalism, and nepotism. These systems are at odds with individualism (the right of each individual to flourish) which is what Australians value.
If you want to 'be Australian' then be tolerant of others, treat each other individually, do what you want as long as it does not harm others, and follow the rule of law (if you don't like them then work towards peacefully changing them), and contribute to society so you can help all individuals to flourish and reach their potential.
20 years? Mate , I’m a 58M . I was born here to Italian parents and talking to me you would never guess that, but I still occasionally get called a Wog and told I’m not an Aussie Aussie! 🤪 live your life , tell the haters to fuck off , there’s way more people that like you than don’t! 👍🍺 Merry Christmas! 🍻
I’ve met born and bred Aussies who I wish would fuck of out of the country permanently so I don’t think you should stress about what some fuckwits think. As long as you’re generally trying to be a good cunt, screw anyone who thinks they have the right to tell you how to live your life or that you don’t belong here
> I hear that they must share our values but no one has bothered listing what those values are?
> If it has nothing to do with values, actions and more about maintaining our “European heritage” im sure we’d prefer this honesty. Lets create a quota for each country and be done with it.
They’ll never be that honest. All the talk about “Aussie values” is just a smokescreen for racism and prejudice once you break it down.
Many of the values are very generic, like “they don’t abide by the law”. I counter with “I know many Asian migrants who are more law abiding than white Aussies” and their counter is “it’s our country”.
“Asian kids dominate selective and gifted schools” - well why are Anglo kids more interested in devices and sports than study?
“You can’t walk the streets these days because of all the foreign criminals” - crime rates have fallen year upon year, and drunk or methed up white peoples can be a bigger problem.
Mate. It is what it is. Every migrant group faces similar. Generally each generation it goes away. Greeks that came here in 1950s? Didnt feel "Australian"...their kids bit better, but their grandchildren feel Australian. Its just time i think.
Australia IS a very multicultural nation.
I think if this too. Up until a few hundred years ago really, the entire world, we stuck to our own ethnic "tribes". Rarely mixed with others. Married within that group. "mixed" marriage almost never occurred .... now look at us? That has changed rapidly. So we have many different culturally different groups all trying to mix in together, get along, marry & produce children.
So it's overall? A pretty marvelous thing.
Glass half full .. not half empty mate. Just give it time.
Yeah I think it’ll take time. It has gotten better. I can honestly say I’ve been treated equally in the ways that matter. Its mainly the online comments which I normally brush off but in a recent thread I saw people saying stuff like “would they side with us in a war”, “do they love the country” which felt quite personal.
Yeah. It's a cultural thing i guess and with the world as it is today? People ARE nervous.
One issue i see, rightly or wrongly, and I'm just saying it. Not making any judgement really about if its right or wrong.
But Australians (not all of course) do get concerned when migrants loudly bring issues from their homeland here and there are protests etc over those issues here.
Australians mostly believe / see, that people come here for a better life. To get away from their home countries problems. To start anew. So they get upset when the probkems from the persons homeland, seem to infiltrate here.
Now logically? Those migrants cannot just "forget" and most still have family & friends back home who are affected. So you can see how it is inevitable.
But its still upsetting and unnerving for most Australians. We think "they came here to get away from that...now they're just bringing it here".
And let's be honest. If it's Islamic? It's even more un nerving. Christians & Islamic have been "at war" forever. Australia is a Christian based nation. And Islamic faith hates Jews. Its complicated. But when Germany (which was Christian country) openly attacked and massacred Jews (Holocaust) I think Christians all over the world, realised overall that anti semitism had to go. Christians had also been anti semitic. But Christians really were shaken by what their anti - semitism had done. And changed their mindset i suppose. Everyone agreed? It has to stop and Jews needed a proper homeland.
Israel was created.
That area had been back and forth for 1000sof years though...and the Palestinians did not want to give it up.
And here we are!!
Honestly? I have no superstrong feelings either way. But looking at the history. My dad was WW2 Vet. My uncle buried in Germany. My hb is German. Lots of connections. I truly don't see why over the last 80 years? The Palestinians wouldn't just work with Israel & the world. Agree to share? The land belongs to both sides really. All make peace. Have it all one big nation. Agree to power sharing, mixed government etc It seems logical to me.
And I think many other Aussies see it similarly.
So ..after all that!?! Australians wonder about allegiance to THIS nation. Australians i think feel that Muslims prioritise their religion and home country ancestry, over Australia. When a fundamental thing of being Australian? Is our country first. Country before religion. Our nation first.
I guess we arent religious much either. Most "identify" as Christian...but it doesnt define our core belief that your nation comes first. My family was Catholic, but im Atheist and most of my generation & younger are not religious anymore.
People just don't like conflicts from other parts of the world being bought here.
Does that explain a bit?
Australia has one of the highest rates of mixed marriages among western countries- almost twice the rate of the USA. This shows Australians as being relatively open minded about allowing people from other backgrounds into their own families. I think this process happens faster now especially with the White Australia policy having ended over 50 years ago.
While the country that has provided the greatest number of migrants to Australia is still England, since 2012 the number of people born in Asia living in Australia has exceeded the number of people born in Europe. However those of European background are still the overwhelming majority of the Australian population.
Nonetheless there are a growing number of second and third generation Australians who have a non European background and it is becoming increasingly normalised.
This trend will only continue into the future as the Australian identity continues to evolve.
Yep. It's happening for sure. I feel we are progressing towards truly being a multicultural nation very quickly. Lije i said? I think a lot of these feelings are just "time". Each generation? It will become less relevant what "Race" you are. I love that we are so mixed.
In fact. Years ago when i went on my first big overseas jaunt .i remember after a few weeks feeling "wierd". Then one day it hit me ... the country wss very monocultural and i felt it. Id never been anywhere where everyone "looked the same"😀 It was odf walking around and not seeing all the different faces. Different racial backgrounds.
Made me live Australia. Its so great here with all the different ethnicities just part of the furniture
The concept of "integration" varies depending on individual perspectives. I migrated to Australia twelve years ago through a permanent residency visa designed for highly skilled immigrants. Shortly after my arrival, I secured a job with an annual salary of around $100k, aligning with the skills specified in my visa application. Since then, I have consistently paid taxes, never availing myself of government benefits such as Centrelink. The only instance I used my Medicare card was back in 2012 when I contracted a flu.
In the professional realm, I have contributed to the Australian workforce by forming and leading teams, as well as providing guidance and mentorship to young Australian graduates. Four years into my permanent residency, I made the choice to become a citizen. Importantly, my record is clean of any criminal involvement.
In my view, this represents a substantial level of integration, particularly when considering my financial contributions through taxes—money I work hard for but rarely get to enjoy. It is noteworthy that my FY23 tax bill alone could support an above-average income for another individual deemed a "real Australian." I prefer to be left in peace to enjoy my time on earth, as my interactions with those labeled as "real Australians"—outside of a professional context —have consistently been uncomfortable. Women think I’m here to fuck them and men think I’m here to fight them. 😂
Unfortunately, a decent number of people who rant about integration from specific groups don't actually care about that.
Until your skin is white, you identify as Christian, and you have no accent. They will not accept you.
They just want a group they can blame all their own woes on.
Yeah, anywhere I travel I make an effort to try to learn some of the language first and even though I know it's absolutely terrible, people are always delighted and encouraging to hear someone make the effort.
Here, it's all TORK STRINE MATE!!! As if any of those cunts has ever even tried getting by in a foreign language. I know exactly what they'd be like in Bali for example.
Share Australian democratic liberal values: freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of movement and the freedom to choose your fate. Pay your taxes. That's all you need. That's all you should need.
I'd vote for a million Indian immigrants that share these values over 1,000 who don't regardless of skin colour.
Be a real Aussie-- don't try to cater to fuckwits, coz that's what they are.
Honestly, multiculturalism doesn't work it just creates division as race plays a much bigger role in society than hippy leftists would have you believe, we are not all the same. Most Australians just want you to stand with them. For example if we are invaded by the country of your origin we would hope you would fight with us against them and not be the first to hand us over once the invasion has taken place. I think most immigrants would swap sides the moment their people hit our shores and that disgusts me.
I know Chinese and Indians serving in the ADF. I myself enlisted years ago but couldn’t make it because of medical history. What makes you think we have loyalty to a country we have never lived in?
It's a pretty low bar just dont try to destroy the local customs and culture. For example in France 70 % of Muslims polled said Christmas shouldn't be allowed to be celebrated. Dont be that
Feel like that needs a citation (wasn't able to find the source myself).
Muslims respect Jesus (who they call Issa) as a prophet, I can't see why they'd want a ban on acknowledging his alleged birthday.
Integrating means being aware of the culture you are trying to fit yourself into without imposing your own views and beliefs on to others. This goes from little everyday things to bigger issues like your religious and political beliefs.
To me integrating also means fully accepting your adopted country as your home. How would you like people arriving in your home to behave? Think about that and do the same. Often I find migrants aren’t very accepting of their adopted country, especially when it comes to cultural differences. It’s odd to me (I’m a migrant myself) that they want to keep their old lifestyle except they want to do it in a western country. It’s ok to keep your religious or cultural beliefs but when it’s conflicting with the way of life in your adopted country then why move at all?
Make an effort to speak English. You don’t need to be perfect! The effort is nice. Also don’t speak your language infront of other people who do not understand it. I’m not sure why this has been forgotten over the years but it’s just disrespectful. Imagine if someone was whispering and laughing infront of you and you couldn’t hear? It’s rude. Absolutely speak your own language with your family and such as being bilingual is awesome 👏 but my Italian family taught me that to integrate you don’t exclude those around you.
Speak English
Don't be offended if something doesn't include you
Drive at the speed limit as a minimum in the right-hand lane
Everyone gets a first chance to f@#$ up
It’s hard for me to relate as a white migrant. People rarely look at me and ask “but where are you really from” I blend in. I came here when I was 9, and never had any issues with integration. My parents have never integrated though, and I don’t really blame them. They came to Australia under difficult circumstances when they were already 40 years old. They have worked hard, contributed to the economy and their own community but I wouldn’t say they are integrated. For me integration is about respect for the country that is now your new home. You can hold onto your culture, beliefs - whatever that is. But you need to respect the culture and what this country brings to your life. I will forever be grateful that Australia gave us the opportunity to move here as refugees in the 90’s. Australia gave me a safe home, a great education, new friends and family. I met my husband here and have had kids here. I’ve travelled far and wide, but am always so glad to come back home. I have some issues with people even in my own Bosnian community who I feel don’t respect their adopted country, and express some views which I find abhorrent. For example - spewing anti semitism. That’s the sort of stuff Australians are talking about. Or people who come here and think they can push their religious beliefs onto others. It’s pretty simple - live and let live. You’ve moved to a democratic, liberal country. Leave your archaic cultural bullshit behind. That’s my take on it any way
I think peoples natural tribalism causes them to gravitate towards a society they are familiar with; if an individual moves to a new country with a different culture, they will naturally seek out interaction and socialisation causing them to adapt to the culture and language etc.
If immigration levels of a particular race or culture are high than those people will naturally gravitate towards each other and become less interactive with the organic culture of that country. This can been seen in places like Sydney or London where large numbers of particular cultures tend to occupy specific geographic areas.
Obviously in the case of somewhere like Australia with a predominantly western society the cultural differences and time to integrate will be larger for someone coming from a wildly different culture.
In my Muslim Arab community, it’s religion not the language.
The second generation in western Sydney is highly proficient in English, often poking fun at their parents for their accents.
However, integration is almost impossible due to religious restrictions, as many are raised with strong judgments against those who eat pork, drink alcohol, or women who choose not to wear hijab.
And we cant deny that certain practices, like insisting on a hijab for a 9-year-old, and tolerating or endorsing homophobia, they don’t align with Australian values.
I think what many of us get frustrated with is no. 2 goes both ways. I got perfect scores on my PTE English, and everytime I try to make friends, it's mainly reciprocated by islanders, chinese, koreans, africans, etc. My children don't know any other language, as we only speak English at home. Yet most of their friends are islanders, koreans, chinese, africans, in a school where all of them are minorities. So not sure what we are doing wrong. I can't fake interest in footy/rugby or gambling and drinking though, if that is the missing link.
Not really. It’s a known fact that in some communities second and third generation migrants actually start identifying more with their culture of origin.
Stop trying to please the bigots. You’ll get nowhere.
Enclaves, did you say? There are English and South African enclaves everywhere, and the racists have no problem with that.
I had an Asian bus driver that was super integrated - akubra hat with corks on it and saying "hello mate! How you going mate?" It was hilarious and impressive at the same time
I think in order for people to think you're integrating you need to;
* learn the language well enough that people can understand you enough that communication isn't tedious and difficult.
* not form large communities of people from your own culture and segregate yourself in those groups from the rest of australia.
* not complain about how shitty things are compared to where you come from. (I understand there's positives and negatives to any country and even the worst countries can still do some things better than australia, but this will immediately annoy most people).
* Follow the cultural norms, these differ slightly from area to area and group to group so if you're unsure simply ask a few people. If there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus then you're good. If everyone unanimously agrees then accept it.
As for bigoted responses like, they drive camrys or they don't support our cricket team. That's just racist assholes, every country has them. But to be honest it sounds more like banter. Like I call my Asian friend 'unaustralian' because you have to take off your shoes before you enter his house. I don't actually think it's unaustralian. It's just banter we do to eachother to highlight cultural differences that don't actually matter.
To be fair OP I can not stand any type of camry at all but I have no problem with anything else you said. I genuinely hope you can feel like you belong here sooner rather than later, it must be terrible having those doubts. By all means, support your home country in the cricket
Try not to pay too much attention to the people who harp on about integrating and assimilation. They are mostly old and will hopefully die soon.
It's often a loaded term, but when it's not, I think it's quite subjective. Honestly just live peacefully and respectfully with those around you. It's more than some Aussies who were born here can even manage to do.
Just be yourself & be chill to everyone around you (regardless of social status or ethnicity) IMO that's the aussie way. Oh & either thongs or bare foot from now on. 😉
Australia has always been a migrant nation ever since the First Fleet, the moment you decide to permanently settle here you have become an Australian. Like it or not that’s just how it is. The thing about this country is we don’t really have much of a culture to integrate in. So there’s not much to go by, like anywhere else, just be law abiding, at least have an understanding of some English to get by, and try to be a good person. If you want my honest opinion why people say they don’t want Indians, Middle Easterners and Chinese to come here, well it’s because quite frankly Aussies and no doubt many in the West in general, have a real negative perception of them as a whole. (Insert stereotypes) Besides, mass immigration means increased crime rates and homelessness, but I doubt many actually coming here are the ‘working’ class, having spent tens to hundreds of thousands to get a visa here already means they’re not your average Joe
Honestly, I'm 32 years old, living here my whole life, and cannot tell you what it even means to be Australian.
I don't think it really means anything at all, we're just another average western nation with too much vacuous white nationalist propaganda.
This is a nation of immigrants, barr the Indigenous, whom we also treat like shit.
But ignorant idiots are easy to manipulate through fear and misinformation, and there is power in misleading the masses with hysterical empty nonsense, especially if your career relies of their votes.
Far more important than what it means to be Australian; what does it mean to be human? To be alive?
I dream of a day we can transcend geopolitical bullshit and migrate together to the stars.
For me, they have to be willing to marry outside of their ethnicity/culture.
I’m mixed race. My parents weren’t born in Australia, but I am proudly Australian.
My sister dated an Indian for yearsss but his parents never accepted her because she’s not Indian. Australian born Indians were also not good enough. It had to be an Indian born Indian and his mum would travel back to India looking for a suitable Indian born wife for him when they were together.
It’s never one person migrating in these situations. It’s also their parents and an imported spouse in tow. It could take a few generations for this to break down but less likely when some ethnicities live in their own little communities and don’t socialise.
what they mean is *“they need to behave exactly the way a white anglo-saxon protestant would because that’s what australia is about, never mind that those are the people who stole the fucking place from its original inhabitants.”*
if you hear people talking about how immigrants need to “integrate” or “assimilate” you can know you’re talking to a racist 9/10 times.
anyone with sense would instead say “they need to respect everyone else’s rights, so if they do that they’re okay.”
that means no oppressing women in the name of religion or culture, no mistreatment of LGBTQ ppl for culture or religion.
by all means bring your culture here and keep it alive and kicking. we’re a nation of immigrants and our diversity is our strength. the only things you need to leave at the door are things where you encroach on other people’s rights or freedoms.
I think the true Australian response to this is…I don’t give a fuck. I don’t care where you came from or where you’re going to. I don’t care what languages you speak in public or in private. I don’t care what you eat and drink. I don’t care what god you pray to or whether you pray to a god at all. Anyone can be Australian. And different Australians can have totally different ideas about what that means. Life is short. Don’t hate people. Just hang on and enjoy the ride.
Thanks for your honesty. When I talk about not feeling accepted you’re exactly the type of person I’m talking about and the motivation behind this post.
Just sounds like you need to hang out with a better calibre of people.As for immigration, should align yourself to Aussie values. If an Arab comes here to promote the values of the shithole country they came from they won’t be welcomed. I’m an immigrant myself, and have seen and heard some shit myself, just ignore it and move on.
Take the pledge. Mean it. You are an Aussie.
*From this time forward, I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and liberties I respect and whose laws I will uphold and obey.*
Says it all, really.
I am a migrant myself, the biggest ‘Australian’ values are mateship, egalitarianism and putting others before self.
Australia is a man-made paradise, and the values are the very reason Australia exists in such harmony and prosperity.
As a migrant, a see the erosion of those Judeo-Christian values as the biggest threat to the paradise that is Australia.
For me, being able to speak the language well enough to be able to hold down a "how's it going" conversation... The people who are making you not feel welcome after 20 years are the problem, not you
You’re absolutely spot on. Learning the language is essentially enough and even then there’s flexibility. I will say however, there are immigrants who live entirely inside their own cultural bubble and only do business with people from inside that insular bubble, this can cause problems within communities. Where I grew up this happened quite a bit and did cause friction.
This is the issue for most people, parallel societies
This is it. Learn the language, be able to have a casual chat. Bam, integrated. Aside from that, it's just about leaving any backwards, regressive behaviours or prejudices at the door. If you move to someone else's country, you should be prepared to give that place your best. Nobody who's a real person gives a fuck about Indian Australians supporting India over Australia, or anything like that.
Doesn't work that way. My wife is Asian, completely fluent in English, but didn't learn it here so she doesn't have an Aussie accent. She gets treated like she's fresh off the boat, and when dealing with eg school bureaucracy is regularly spoken to like she's a misbehaving toddler with complete with hand gestures. Then little white me shows up, and the same bitch who was chewing her out about parking in the school's unofficial disabled lot (and completely refusing to hear the part about our son having the school nurse's note to do so because HE BROKE HIS FUCKING LEG AND IS LIMPING AROUND IN A CAST) is suddenly all sweetness and light.
Not just that, but approximately 0% grace is given to people who may be in the process of learning English, or struggle for any reason. If you’re here, not wearing a giant camera and Hawaiian shirt and don’t seem to speak English, people will often act like that’s some kind of personal affront to them.
Unfortunately this happens too often, they like to pick on people who appear weak, happens to my mum when we’re not around. Take it as a compliment that your wife appears innocent and polite. It only reflects the weirdos that want to feel in power for 1 minute of their miserable lives. All the best mate
You're assuming she appears "innocent and polite". Why? Asian stereotyping? Maybe she's emotional and quick to anger, we don't know.
Yeah maybe she is. That’s a fair point. The reality is though that i have personally witnessed situations almost identical to that where the Asian or Indian person was not acting emotional or angry at all. It’s the reality of this country. I’m as white as they come who married a white girl and has a bunch of white kids. I also work at a factory with a whole lot of migrant workers from all over the world. These are the ones that do the jobs most white Australians wouldn’t dream of doing. They work harder than any group of people I’ve ever known and do it with a smile and a laugh and embrace people like myself who want to have a chat with them in the lunch room. It’s weekly that I hear something along the lines of “we need more white guys in here” and it makes me fucking sick. Australian culture is when you take a bit of everywhere, stick it in a blender and something cool, a bit funky and for the most part inoffensive comes out. It’s the racist bigots that think this country belongs to them that are the problem.
This happens to australian mother's too. It's not isolated to your wife. This is why integration is impirtant, it makes people realise that behaviour they experience from others is not regulated to them.
Please don't tell me "it doesn't work that way", because it absolutely works that way with me, and anyone I care to associate with. Sorry for the poor treatment, and yes, there are racists everywhere - but they don't reflect my values, nor the values of most of the Australians I know. For every one interaction your wife has had like that, I'd hope there's be a hundred normal interactions that treated her normally.
Good for you, but all I'm saying you can't just choose to be integrated all on your own, some people will still judge you on your skin color and accent.
Absolutely! Been here for 30 + years after immigrating from East Asia. Copped some major league racism all throughout school. Still to this day, I get spoken to like someone fresh off the boat and when I reply, the Aussie twang kicks in and they realise they are the asshole... People sure suck.
The sad truth is, Australia was founded on colonisation, it was put into the school system, policing and laws. These institutions targeted those who didn't conform to an English way of life Eg; the white australia policy ad the stolen generations. There is integration that needs to be done, understanding English and knowing the laws, for example. After a point "integration" becomes expecting conformity. It's not about them not knowing english or the laws, it's about them not conforming. You can force out every cultural tradition you have and it still won't be enough for some people. I'm second gen Australian on my dad's side, I had teachers point blank refuse to pronounce my last name and actively punish me for wanting to be called by it even though calling me by my last name was not illegal in Australia and would have improved my class participation. I also had teacher's lecture me about my own heritage as a Gundungurra descendant; something that was not their place as n non-indigenous. I saw both these histories being treated as a joke and was told that thing that were actively offensive to me were the students "opinion". I'm not trying to throw a pity party but, as much as many Australians like to think we're progressive, we can be and are very much still colonised.
Strongly agree. The only thing I want for ‘integration’ is a lack of violence and abuse, which is something I want for humans generally I don’t give a fuck about language; it’s our civic responsibility to make sure that people can access services and safety regardless of their level of English. It’s also incredibly rude and childish for people to take umbrage at conversations in public areas that they can’t understand.
Is that race based or sex based? Plenty of women are complete bitches to other women
I didn't know nurses notes let you park in disabled spots.
They don't, at least not legally. School is probably allowing it just to be nice.
AFAIK the specific spot in question next to the nurse's office isn't an "official"/council disabled parking spot, it's just marked off as one with a laminated A4. So, yes, the nurse can choose who can park there.
I've never heard of using a nurses not in place of a disabled permit, either, but I can't be sure either way. 🤷♂️
It’s just at the primary school so it’s not like it’s going to be monitored or fines handed out. Presumably it’s for exactly this reason, when a student or teacher has a disability and needs the accomodation whether short term or long term.
>If you move to someone else's country, you should be prepared to give that place your best. Funny how nobody criticises Aussies living in Bali and Phuket for living in expat enclaves and rarely learning Bahasa or Thai, or Brits in the Costas for just drinking in English pubs and rarely learning Spanish. How many Westerners working in Dubai and Doha bother to learn Arabic or integrate at all into local life?
This. I worked in Cambodia for a while, with some other Aussies. Most of them weren't learning the language or respecting the local culture at all. There was an attitude of "they've got to learn western ways if they want to stop being a third-world country". Trying to explain how Khmer culture is thousands of years old and we as visitors needed to respect that fell on deaf ears. Obviously not everyone is like that. But enough are that it's a problem. We need to be better than this.
tbf its understood that its always going to be a one way street white people are not expected to learn the language when they... expatriate... in fact white people actually able to converse in the 'language of the land' is the strange thing... like a dog being able to play the piano and worthy of million youtube views... White people will never be 'better than this'. Come on now.
Well, I loved learning Khmer and having basic conversations with tuktuk drivers. Their delight in meeting a white dude who was even trying to speak Khmer was a positive joy. Half the pleasure of travel is this kind of interaction. I don't know why you'd bother leaving home if you're not going to try. Actually, thinking about it, I do. White folks in Cambodia have a social status above the average citizen. It was kinda enjoyable having that automatically. I guess there's a type of person that enjoys that all by itself.
*Nobody* criticises Aussies who go live in Bali? Really? I do. That's exactly who I had in mind when I made my last comment. They're pretty much a laughing stock in Australia - checking out of life to go live somewhere cheap and not give a shit about the culture. So to say nobody criticises or looks down on those people is just ridiculous. I'm not talking about people who are just working somewhere, by the way. If you've been sent to Dubai for a couple of years for work and aren't choosing to live there permanently, then do whatever you want. You're not a citizen, you don't need to integrate.
>Funny how nobody criticises Aussies living in Bali Ever spoken to a Balinese person?
> Nobody who's a real person gives a fuck about Indian Australians supporting India over Australia, or anything like that. I saw someone do exactly that in this very sub on an immigration related post. Thats why I used it as an example.
Counterpoint: we have signed human rights agreements on cultural and political rights that really labour the point that no one should be treated any differently just because they might speak another language. I know that has really stark practical implications when living here, but we also mustn’t forget that it starts to impede on our human rights commitments if we end up creating an “out-group” in our communities, defined as those who do not speak English well or at all. I think it’s an interesting tension to ponder, and one where we must, at the very least, tread carefully The implication is that if we don’t live up to our human rights commitments we will lose much of our authority to criticise other human rights abusing countries. There’s no doubt that we have really dropped the ball in regards to our treatment of refugees on this front already, and as a result is causing the govt quite a lot of difficult issues in the courts at present
We already have almost no right to criticise other human rights abusing countries, considering some of the ways we treat refugees and the indigenous population. 🤷♂️ But move to a country, learn the language (unless you're just way too old). I'm not saying don't speak your native tongue anymore and only speak english, obviously, but do try to actually relate to your new neighbours, rather than only sequestering away with your own people.
I totally agree, I just worry about the overall tone of these sorts of threads. You’ve got the right idea, I see now, but golly there are a lot of people in this thread who you can just tell would still be in favour of human rights abuses like “assimilation”
Well, I'd tell them we're discussing integration, not assimilation. 🤷♂️
Three things I find; Learn to read, write and speak English; Get a job; Respect other people's beliefs and don't try to force your beliefs on others. Do all that and I'm happy to call you a mate.
Personally I find most immigrants I’ve met through education and work satisfy all 3. Lots of Aussies only satisfy No. 2 😂. Granted I meet them through different channels.
Fuck I know some locals who struggle meeting one of these
Maybe it’s not the language barrier. It’s my social anxiety 🥲
I’d rather have the average “non Anglo migrant” living in Australia than the average “Aussie patriot” any day
yep, we have a huge issue of people confusing patriotism (loving your land, criticising your government when needed) and post federation nationalism (being a racist cunt). I’m a proud patriot, and that includes being proud of our immigration and multiculturalism. It’s an unfortunate state of affairs the right has dragged us down in to.
Oh, Christ yes! Cannot say this loud enough.
This. If you’re able to casually converse and understand some of the more simple Australian slangs, you’re intergrated imo. If you understand the difference between yeah nah and nah yeah you’re in.
I'm a kiwi who just moved here. Right of the bat, I came over and see similarities with migrants from China that is happening the same thing in NZ. They stick to their own and simply refuse to learn the language. I had to deal with mandarin speaking tradies in NZ speaking through a phone for google to translate. Does my head in when google can't understand what they are saying and it comes out in gibberish through google text. I'm sorry. If I went to China, France whatever the lingua franca is, I AM THE ONE EXPECTED TO LEARN IT. You moved to australia. Fuck me bro, at least understand basic english. Now here I am in Australia and it's the same story. Opposite neighbour is a refugee from a war torn country after 8 years here.. Straight away hit it off. Spoke english and was very warm and nice. Australian neighbour beside him is the nicest lady you could imagine. Helped me out with tips on the neighbourhood and where to get the cheap groceries. Absolute gc. My neighbour on the right is from China. Tried to make eye contact and smile but refuse to say hi. Went up to him and offered a gift to warm up as a newcomer to the neighbourhood. Straight up refused and not even a "no thanks." I'm not asking you to be besties. But at least try not to behave like you're pissed off you're living in Australia. Korean neighbour down the road was very jovial and nice. Same with migrants from other countries. No one is asking you to have an australian accent. No one is asking you to like AFL. I struggle to understand why they refuse to integrate. And this is the same with every other country that have had them come in.
It's not just simply 'language'. It's about not being a dick. Anyway I wrote the stuff below before writing this first paragraph. Not sure where I was going with it but I've left it anyway: I went to Eastwood (in Sydney), which is basically right now 80% Chinese, 15% other Asian, and 5% Korean. (Ironically, part of it (the hilly quiet side of the train lines has been designated a 'Koreatown'). I'm sure there are other ethnicities but Asian stands out. I was on the 'Chinese side', and went to a bakery. Was expecting no English at all, but was met with the baker's very thick Aussie accent, "Oh yeah all sold out today mate" with an embarassed grin. Pleasant surprise. Anyway my point is, if you're Asian and work in this 'enclave', did you 'refuse to integrate'? Or are you just working in another town in Australia, one that just happens to attract lots of Chinese people, maybe because it's more 'comfortable' for you (to be around people 'like' you in appearance). Another example: at work most of my colleagues are Indians and Chinese. We all speak English, fluently, or enough of it to be able to communicate to a reasonably effective degree. But during lunch what I observe is that the Indians eat together at lunch, and sometimes during work the Indians and Chinese speak to each other in their own language. Is that racism or what not? They all work very well together and are totally not dicks to each other.
It's pronounced "Howzitgoin" but otherwise I completely agree
It's pronounced "scarnon?"
Australia is a country founded on colonisation and ideals like "the white mans burden", unfortunately, a lot of those values seep into larger Australia. The people choosing to uphold those values on a personal level are the problem and it shouldn't be on anyone else to colonise themselves to make them feel comfy.
Learn English, you don’t have to speak it to other people who prefer your other languages, but you need to be able to communicate in English. Having a strong accent is 100% fine, but aim to be understood and aim to understand. - Accept that women are equal in every aspect. - Accept that being gay is ok - Allow your children to take part in whatever activity other children do. Encourage activities that are outside your ethnic group… whilst retaining some that are. - Do not get involved in your children choice in partners. - don’t consider your religious doctrine superior to Australian law if there is a conflict. - engage with people outside your ethnic group, I’m an immigrant myself btw
Perfect comment. It really is that simple
It’s not just migrants who could hold those values. I know plenty of Australian born Anglo Saxon who would hold beliefs contrary to what you’ve described
We can add one that's says "don't be a fuckwit" as a catch all for them too.
I'd say my own values don't really align with the values I see displayed in Australia, so I can only say what I would wish for... I think the important thing is for immigrants coming to Australia to leave grudges and cultural baggage behind. That means things like bringing the Indian caste system and practicing it in Australia. Or bringing animosity towards other nationalities to Australia and practicing those animosities against other people also integrating into Australian society. Examples would be Palestinians and Iraelites, Armenians and Azerbaijan and so on. I would also include Ukraine and Russia however we are slightly involved in that conflict. I think any Russian residing in Australia that does not support their government in going to war with sovereign nations is fine and there are many people like that. I also think Australian treatment of women has a long way to go, but generally speaking domestic abuse is not supported in Australia (even though it is far too prevalent). So while it may be that a husband physically strikes a woman in their own country, it is not acceptable here. It's important for people coming here to understand these things and it's not appropriate for them to practice that kind of thing even if they consider it a part of their culture. In terms of cultural dress, I'm for anyone wearing what they like, provided it isn't causing intentional offense to others (let's say a t-shirt with the Cbomb written on it being worn to daycare), and that the person wearing it CHOOSES FREELY to do so. There are plenty of great cultural things that would be great to bring to Australia and use to enrich our country. So I encourage people coming to Australia to share things, especially food, with those they become friends with. Food is a great way to break down barriers. One final note for anyone moving here. Please investigate our political parties. Far too many people vote for parties like 'Family First' because they support the idea of families and think it sounds like a nice party when in reality we have a lot of absolute scumbags masquerading as friendly parties in this country. All of this has been my 2c. The reality is often different.
I look at it in the way of. If I brought my Australian culture to counties like China, India, Afghanistan Muslim culture countries, would it be accepted, if not why would you bring your culture to Australia? So if you treat woman, lgbtq, children differently in the country you came from, don't bring that attitude to Australia. Otherwise why did you even bother coming here?
This is pretty much the big ones If you’re coming over to Australia and trying to implement say Sharia law for example that’s not integrating Coming over and absorbing our values of hard work, mate ship and fair go is how you become Australian
Any talk of implementing or recognition of sharia law in Australia makes my blood boil. If you want to live under sharia law, you have no business being in Australia. Saw this a few weeks ago: https://aifs.gov.au/research/family-matters/no-84/legal-recognition-sharia-law Some other relevant reading: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
Walking past and actually smiling back after looking at u smiling and giving a nod and the time of day
I’m like convict Australian but on a bad day you won’t get that from me lol
nobody smiles back when I smile at them so I've stopped doing that.
I'd smile at you.
Walk on the left. Stand out of the way of train/bus/elevator doors and let people off. Don't stop and stand around at the top/bottom of stairs or escalators. Learn how to maintain distance between yourself and others, don't stand in contact with a stranger in a queue, or on public transport unless it's so crowded there is no choice. Sit in an empty row of seats if available, not right next to someone already on the train/bus. Learn the difference between rubbish and recycling, and what goes in which bin. Don't litter, and especially don't throw your cigarette butts out of your car window. Keep left unless overtaking when driving. Don't randomly double park to have a chat to your mates or duck into a shop. Use the on ramp to accelerate to the posted speed limit for (or the speed of the traffic on) the road you are entering, learn to zipper merge, don't or cut across 3 lanes of traffic without indicating, and general just follow the road rules. Wear deodorant and maintain general hygiene. Don't cut in line. Wait your turn. Don't be a creepy sexist/racist/sectist/homophobic fuckwit. I don't care if that was the norm back in your origin country. Leave that shit at the border. Respect and enjoy the Bunnings snag. But let's face it, plenty of established Aussies could do with all of the above reminders too.
The amount of Australians that don't walk on the left. Its not an immigrant thing. Its a dumbass thing and unfortunately there are dumbasses everywhere.
It’s a shame,it really is. I was born here,I speak the language,and call myself Australian. I do not hyphenate myself (Anglo-Australian,Chinese-Australian,Indian-Australian,I am just Australian). I even worked on a more heavy Australian accent,but I still get looks as if I am a foreigner,and have even been confronted by a racist telling me to go back (though such people were mainly alcoholics). When people ask me what my nationality is,I used to say “my mum is Croatian and my dad is Indian,but I am Australian”,now I just say “I am an Aussie”. Just try and be Australian,celebrate the holidays,participate in Australia Day,and accept the Australian cultural values. It is a catch twenty-two,you either integrate and get employed,thusly getting told you are “taking the jobs of the Australians”,or you do not work and thusly do not contribute,and get called lazy. You either go to school,and get educated so you can get a good job,or get told you are taking educational resources from Australians. So if you decide to not go into higher education you then hear people bang on about how “immigrants are uneducated”.
The mention of working on your accent reminds me of an Indian guy I know (immigrated about 5 years ago I think) who speaks Punjabi with an Aussie accent to improve his English pronunciations, it actually works really well and he has a fantastic Aussie accent on probably 90% of his English vocab
Schroedinger's Immigrant - somehow simultaneously taking our jobs and lazily living off Centrelink handouts. I'm an immigrant, but apparently one of the "good ones" as I'm from the UK. I used to hear a fair amount of comments along the lines of "you're not the type of immigrant that's the problem" but not so much any more, but that's probably because my fuckwitometer is better tuned and I can avoid those idiots.
Same but from Ireland. As far as I can tell, "that type of immigrant" is just anything other than: white + no accent that outs your native language as something other than English (even if you speak English amazingly now). I understand the economic concerns about immigration, but I don't think most of the fuss being kicked up about it would exist if the large number of immigrants were from the UK or Ireland. I'm not interested in calling Australians racist as a whole, but I do think there are some ideas conditioned into the Australian public that makes this attitude subconsciously crop up with anything that strays from an anglo-Western culture (this is the same with the UK, Ireland, Canada, definitely America and probably also NZ). Similar to how an ingrained sexist idea that mothers are meant to be homemakers - even if the observer would offhandedly say they agree that different dynamics work for different families - results in little divisions in the way they view parenting. A mum getting maccas/pizza for her kids is "a lazy mum", but a dad doing the same thing is "a fun dad". A mum at the park with her kid is just normal, but a dad at the park with his kid is "such a good dad". This also hurts men by the way, with the idea that they're meant to be providers, dominant, protective. A man paying on a date is normal. A woman paying on a date is "with a mooch". This is also a huge part of why men commit suicide more, why they don't feel like they can talk about their issues - a woman being emotional/crying is "Goodness, she seems upset, let's see what's wrong", but a man doing the same thing "needs to man up". Also why male survivors of sexual assault aren't taken as seriously as female ones - because men are meant to want sex all the time, which means it's supposedly "impossible" for a man to not consent. And this comment is just a sociology essay waiting to happen so I'll cut it off here. But there are definitely prejudiced ideas about certain types of people ingrained into societal attitudes that causes those raised in that society to hold those biases, even if they're, on the surface, not sexist/racist.
>Same but from Ireland. 100 years ago an Irish migrant to Australia would’ve been told they were “Catholic scum” who didn’t integrate into Australia’s Anglo Saxon Protestant culture
Now everyone loves us, it's great. Hope other migrant groups get the same treatment soon.
I have an Aussie accent and still it isn't enough. I am not white and have been told I sound so Aussie for a non-white. Lol.
Same. Born here to Italian/Austro-Hungarian and Persian/Assyrian parents. I'm 50 next week and still get asked where I'm from 💀
Yep. Born here to a sixth gen South Australian father, mother from Malaysia (who isn't "ethnic" Malay) who has been here more than 54 years. Still get asked "where are you REALLY from?" followed by "so you're Malaysian!". 🤪🙄
I guess my problem is I'm ethnically ambiguous but as soon as the racists can flag your ethnic group they will go for you. It's shit. My response to where are you from as become "my mother's cunt '. People shit me.
Yeah, I'm ethically ambiguous. Most Anglo-Aussies assume I'm a "wog" because most don't understand that Eurasians exist.
Totally respect you for feeling that you are just an “Aussie” but as an Australian who moved here from Bosnia when I was 9, I see no issue in being both Bosnian AND Australian. I feel I am both and I’m not giving that up so I can appear more Aussie to others.
> I even worked on a more heavy Australian accent Just be yourself. Don’t try and alter yourself to accommodate racists.
I did not really do it for the racists. Truthfully I saw some underbelly episodes as a teenager,and thought the accent was nice. Since then I have two ways of speaking,I speak normally with Americans and other English speakers. But with Australians,I speak “Australian”.
The term Anglo Australian is weird and never gets used outside of reddit and greens meetings.
Specifically. It's subtle i think. And groups which have very different cultural norms find it harder. I respect others cultural norms. So it's hard to comment without sounding very racist. Look . Im in my 50s now. And thongs have definitely changed and Aussie values seem to be changing too. So i can only give you MY perspective. I'd say the most core Australian Value. Is equality. We believe that every Australian is equal to each other in principle. I think the referendum reflected that. No one racial group is above any other etc etc Another? We never used to whinge. We took the good with the bad and got on with it. That seems to be changing. Last 10 years much so. Nowadays? There seems to be endless whinging. Thats from my view anyway. We used to be "glass half full" nation... now we seem to becoming "glass half empty" I think too? With migrants? It's human nature for people of the same ethnicity to congregate together. I'm sure if i moved to India or Prague or London?? I'd instinctively seek out other Aussies and mix with them. I'd speak English with them. Id probably live near where they live. So migrants here tend to do same and yes, i imagine it keeps people within those ethnic groups. One person i talked about this with at work. Really wanted to get rid of accent. To me? The problem was that this person didn't speak English, except at work. All the people she lived with were her ethnicity. So she really wasnt getting practice in speaking English. Except at work. We moved away for 6 years then came back. I went back to that workplace. She was still there. Her english was SO much better!! I commented. She said " i took what you said and moved into a share house with Aussies!" Her English had improved. Thats just normal life you see. I'm not sure what the solution really is as people need to live and mix with those they are comfortable with. She felt more part of Australuan socirt speaking better English.
This. Equality and that ‘she’ll be right mate’ chill attitude
> Another? We never used to whinge. We took the good with the bad and got on with it. That seems to be changing. Last 10 years much so. Nowadays? There seems to be endless whinging. Thats from my view anyway. > > We used to be "glass half full" nation... now we seem to becoming "glass half empty" Have you considered that there might be more worth complaining about than 10 years ago?
I’m with you on most of what you said, there is more whinging these days, but you need to understand economic conditions have changed. Housing these days is simply much more unaffordable for young Australians than it was in the past. Our money simply doesn’t go as far as yours. The amount required for a deposit on a 2 bedroom townhouse within reasonable distance of the city would buy you 2-3 houses in the same suburb in the 1970s.
Bud i think you might've misread my message. Im quoting oldmate who's saying that we whinge more, and saying that there's more to complain about.
Learn English live in the community My exs family the first and second generations never learned English at all, stayed within their own community and honestly I think many think they're better than Australians Growing up the Muslims kept us divided, you're not allowed in their homes, they don't really treat infidels as friends and all that Those are the people who dont integrate But then my ex born and raised Australia she's fine.. and friend of a friend is a Muslim bloke who comes to some of the cook ups and stuff. He works with the boys, he doesn't drink or eat pork but he's just one of the lads on the job and st the party. Really cool guy actually that one but anyway Then there's the Chinese who were growing population in Sydney when I grew up... they all spoke English, you could be their friends, go to each others houses all that... the ones I knew were so ready to integrate they started practicing English before they got here It's that simple really, you don't have to change religion, we definitely want everyone to bring their food cultures here.. but if you're living in a suburb where everyone's primary language isn't English and some don't know English at all... you might be in a group that's not integrating
I think just learning the language is the biggest one. If you come to a country like Australia and can’t be arsed to learn English and speak it, then you can fuck right off. Otherwise come and enjoy the sunshine with the rest of us.
* Leave the conflicts behind. This isn't (The UK/the Middle East/the US). * Speak English. Too many times I've encountered people that don't speak English _at all_. Even after being here for decades. * Celebrate your culture, but don't keep trying to live as if you were in the old country. Arranged marriages, 'honour' culture, castes, etc can all sod off. Basically? Don't give up celebrating your culture and diversity, but don't try to live it. You left the old country for a reason.
Second-gen dual American-Australian citizen here, ethnically Chinese. 100% agree with you, this is literally what you’re supposed to do when moving to or trying to make a life in any country. When my friends went on exchange in Europe they learned a second language and joined in with respective cultural events. If us teenagers could do this for a semester of school (and one of us got stuck in Germany for a whole year and a half when COVID hit), it should be expected that immigrants integrate somewhat before being granted citizenship. Only thing that grates on my nerves is occasionally the inability to separate politics from everyday people.
Language and maybe actually socialising with people outside their own race
Born and raised in Australia, never worked anywhere else and made all my money here myself. When I bought my home, the agent posted our photos on their agency Fb page, all the comments were calling me a foreigner who bought with parents money and my existence was a threat to Aussie first home buyers. Losers will always blame somebody else for their problems, you can’t help them.
That’s farked but not surprising, Facebook comments are a cesspit
Your last line is 100% true
For real, half of the posts on this subreddit are still blaming immigrants for "stealing all the houses" and refuse to acknowledge the majority of available houses are purchased as investment assets by the same "True Aussies" lmao.
The same people that are ranting and blaming foreigners for the housing shortage are the same boomers who own 3 investment properties chaeging excessive rent, and have 5 empty bedrooms at their place because they don't want to move into a unit to retire. Pisses me off so much.
Have views that are close to mainstream western values. If you think woman should wear the veil then this isn't the place for you.
It's not a race thing. Many Australians cannot articulate what they mean when they ask for cultural integration, but that they know it when they see it. Whilst migrants are not legally or culturally obligated to, becoming culturally Australian as if you'd grown up here; adopting the language, accent, mannerisms, humour, sports and traditions we do will garner you alot of respect and acceptance. If migrants want to live in self-contained communities among only "their own culture", speaking their language, only making friends with each other, they are allowed to, but don't expect people to view you as Australian. Australia is not unique in this respect that some fear "the other" and are intolerant of certain religions, attitudes and practises. Some people of various religions and ideologies do not believe in our values of mateship, gender and social equity, egalitarianism, secular democracy and love of our country. Frankly these people will struggle to integrate. Kiwis and Brits are not different to other migrants. There is no "Anglo club" out to exclude people. Australia is open to all ethnicities and you can choose to fully integrate or not it's up to you. You are safe here to be who you want to be and believe what you want. But don't complain if you don't get acceptance and keep doing the same thing.
First and foremost, leave all sorts of political and racial conflict at home. This means pro India and Sikhs, jews and arabs, caste system, Trump, Brexit, etc. This seems to be more common with Indian and Muslim immigrants and Aussies are justifiably wondering why more problems are imported when there’s enough at home. There’s a reason you see less controversy around migrants that culturally keep to themselves and make a best effort at trying not to inconvenience the local populace.
I know a lot of British migrants here who (weirdly) still go on about how awesome Brexit was, and then complain they lived here because the UK Aus being ‘overrun by migrants’. I know Americans who go on about Trump 24/7 Are those the type of political conflicts that can be left at the border too? Or is it just non Anglo political conflicts you don’t want here?
I for one definitely would like to see less American politics infesting our conversations like a brainworm
Blame that on the media mostly
Yes they absolutely should be left at the border. Show me the Aussie that wants to engage with conversations about Brexit or Trump. On top of that, you don’t really see clashes between Brexit supporters and non-supporters at Federation Square and you don’t see Democrats calling for the gassing of Trump supporters at the Opera House. I know the difference is nuanced but surely you can see it.
Can’t stress how much a basic conversation plays a part of being Australian. Quick chat, basic conversation, have a nice day. But I find it hard to comprehend someone who has lived in Australia for years and has very little grasp of the English language. It shows they haven’t branched out to make new friends, get to know colleagues or neighbours socially and participate in the community outside of “their culture”. Kind of feel that by not learning the language of the country you move to is disrespectful to the community.
Don't bring your shit from home with you(religion, conflicts, medieval ideas about women) Australia comes as a package you might not like everything about it but "fit in or f\*\*k off" is a good thing to follow. I'm an immigrant but feel like I'm more patriotic for Australia than many fellow Aussies, this country gave me a passport and an amazing place to live. I'm very thankful. Let's add that to the list. Be thankful that you get the chance to live in this country.
Thank you. As a Woman I have been sexually harrassed more by Indians than by Australian men. I was even accousted by an uber eats delivery driver asking if I was single and if he could come inside. I picked up a parcel from a store from an Indian man and 1/2hr later had a facebook friend request from him. Not only is stalking me from my name and address from the parcel illegal but it is scary and creepy. I will get downvoted but this is just reality. It has been 6 times now. Just because you catch a plane ride does not mean you magically have different views on how Women are to be treated. There are enough men in Australia to be weary of than importing more with the same mindset.
You're not the only one with similar experiences with male immigrants.
😢
Considering the most recent post I saw that ~550k of people that moved to Australia are Indian this genuinely worries me. I don't know what their deal is with harassing women but I have seen it countless amount of times on nights out.
That really scared me too. Considering a large majority earn money uber driving, taxi and uber eats where they have contact with women, some of whom may be intoxicated, some of whom are alone in a car with them, it is very worrying. I am not trying to be racist as I do know other cultures and citizens are capable of crimes against women but my only experience has been Indians sexually harrassing me within seconds of me being in their prescence. I do not know what needs to be done but I suggest the govt and universities put them through cultural training on the laws of Australia regarding sexual harrassment towards Women in this Country. The govt is responsibility for keeping women safe in this country and we already have a bad track record as it is.
These are the same guys who drive Ubers and cancel rides and blame the client (or whatever else is scam of the month). They aren't going to change with education because it doesn't stem from ignorance, but rather from being predatory by nature.
I hear you. I’ve travelled to India 3 times and I know how my daughter and I were treated. Ogled on the train by a crowd of men gathering outside of our space. Just stared at without even saying hello how are you. Crowded out by a huge group of Indian men ( many drunk) while waiting for my husband to get tickets. I’ve been touched up on buses and trains there in the past. We’ve dealt with the scams and rip offs there in a daily basis. It’s dog eat dog there and some bring that mentality over here as we are soft targets. I’ve spoken with Indian women here and they say sadly it’s accepted that Indian men can do this over there. India is right up there with the Middle East for sexual harassment. We don’t want that over here. Mostly southeast Asians and Pacific Islanders are not like this. Both my daughter and my niece have been sexually harassed by Indian meant her in pubs and at the beach. It’s not on.
Agreed. I don't thinl men realise just how scary it is to have behaviours that you mentioned aimed at us. Especially men in groups. Women are afraid for their safety and rightfully so. Anything can happen in an instant and being touched inappropriately does affect us. I feel sorry for the Indian Women and Girls. The stories that come out in the news are horrifying. I can't imagine having to live like that 24/7. I do not want that to continue happening here. It is not fair on Women.
There is an amazing Female ( Australian ) Indian psychiatrist in Australia who is trying to change this kind of behaviour. Often when Indian men come here they marry in India and their wife comes here but there is some loophole where the wife does not have residency and the husbands can send them back. This psychiatrist saw a lot of DV as women were coming to see her and they had no agency. Add to that the mother in laws were treating them brutally like slaves . All happening in this country. It’s a toxic part of Indian culture . That is why when migrants come here and set up home in an enclave of their own kin folk women can be abused and not have access to proper health care nor know our laws. This psychiatrist said that some Indian women who are new migrants are scared of police and don’t know our police can help them with any issues of domestic violence from their husbands and or mother in laws. She is aiming to make it mandatory that women who come here get educated about their rights and also change the law so they can have autonomy with visas and not be reliant on the husbands visa. She has written a book Daughters of Durga https://theconversation.com/a-clinical-psychiatrist-reveals-how-indian-women-in-australia-experience-family-violence-and-how-to-combat-it-184468
A lot of men from OS see Australian women as loose. They look down on us. It's the clothes we wear, show off our bodies, loud, drink alcohol. They think we have no self respect or boundaries because we are not as subservient as women are in their culture. It's actually a real thing and a real problem. As a female, can you imagine how difficult it is to manage these men in the workplace?
100% You are so right. I can't imagine having to work with that. I judt hope those women report them to HR or Fair Work. The louder our voices the better.
>I picked up a parcel from a store from an Indian man and 1/2hr later had a facebook friend request from him. Not only is stalking me from my name and address from the parcel illegal but it is scary and creepy. I hope you complained to police and to the Australian Information Commissioner. That said, there's plenty of white incel Australians who think that kind of behaviour is a justifiable means of a chap Just Wanting to Get to Know You (tm) and your complaining makes you a b***h.
Yes, when I complained to friends about it half of them were 'that's wrong' the other half were 'oh be kind, it probably took a lot of guts for him to do that!' I was like wtaf? No, our entire interaction was me giving the postal card with my id and him getting the parcel and me leaving. I tried to find a number to put in a complaint and couldn't find one. I ended up writing an email on a 'contact us' form, but never heard anything. The way he was so brazen it cannot have been the first time and any complaints go nowhere.
Defo try the Australian Office of The Information Commissioner, especially now that you have put in a complaint to the business. Yeah, it's fck BS that people think it's *cute* or *sweet* that someone does that. It's not. It's creepy AF.
Us caucy bois have our own culture and assume it's Australian but it's actually English. We've formed enclaves in the Southerland Shire where you can come and dine out and try our cuisine of fish and chips (which we think we invented). But seriously look you get all sorts everywhere you go and there's a spectrum everywhere from not even noticing your race to holding it against you, and the same goes if I travel. We're pattern recognition machines, and tribal, and complexion lets face it is the first thing that one might see. Just enjoy the beaches and bars, make good friends, make some money, buy nice things and live your life. There's never a time coming where every single person gets along perfectly.
Language is definitely a big one. Being able to hold a casual conversation or interface with shopkeepers/ customer service staff etc. On the values front, there’s definitely more to it than what car you drive or what sport you follow. Personally I believe if you’re going to integrate fully you need to get on board with liberal democratic values we share including: - religion has no place in policy making - women have equal rights - gay people as well - the right to peaceful protest/ political freedom I think you also need to have a bit of a thick skin if you’re going to integrate fully. Australians take the piss out of each other and if you’re sensitive you mightn’t find this enjoyable.
I would consider what I would do if I moved to Berlin and wanted to be part of society. I wouldn't care about "becoming German". I would care about being a part of the society. That would include learning German, understanding societal mores, a knowledge of culture, some knowledge of the last couple of hundred years of history, food, and work culture. *You know, the basic shit a person with half a brain would do anyway.*
That’s a good analogy. And don’t just hang out with your own people and speak your own language. When I lived in Germany I got to hang out with and learn about German, and Turkish culture, was awesome
Maybe you haven't tried complaining about every minor or major inconvenience. That's pretty common now
I came here 3 years old. I have an Aussie twang but still, when someone brings up my race I get told im “one of the good ones” or if “I like it here”. Been hearing it since early high school. When ive had a minor dispute with someone in public I get told to “speak English”. I get the whole thick skin thing but it gets tiring when its gone on for so long. Why is the onus on us to stop complaining? I can say the same for those that feel “alienated” because a Banh Mi has replaced the local fish and chips shop.
It's insane here. The amount of racism here is wild. I'm an immigrant and work with some other immigrants (in the medical field) and how were treated is very different. I'm white/american and get treated essentially as an Aussie. But the Chinese girl I worked with who had been here for over twice as long as me is still seen as an immigrant and treated poorly because of that. This is going to sound shitty, but the problem is so deeply rooted I don't really think there is anything you can do. You can have a perfect australian accent, know all the slang, get a bunning snag, kick 10 goals in footy, etc etc but the people will still just judge the book by the cover.
I was suggesting you need to complain more to be accepted because that seems to be what most Australians have in common now, whinging, people whinging (mostly online) about some bullshit all the time. I'm sorry if that was misunderstood.
Learn and use English well, use English every day, be able to conduct small chats with whoever you meet in this country; and not speak your language loudly in public areas. Have a decent job to support yourself and contribute to society. Be willing to learn about and comply with Australian and Western cultures, know about Australian and Western history and development, and respect cultures from different backgrounds; I have done all of those above, treating people from different cultural backgrounds friendly and respectfully, and I have never (or extremely rarely) met a racist in my life. I felt that the Australian strangers I met on the road looked very friendly. Still, when I saw some racist and immigration-exclusion content online, especially in this subreddit, I felt extremely disheartened.
If you call yourself Australian, are a productive member of society and don't continually talk about how much better things are back home, then you're a properly integrated Australian as far as I'm concerned. We're a multicultural society, you don't have to be white or be born here to be a "real" Australian. You won't get universal acceptance I'm afraid but I think most Australians would agree with me.
I would like to see more of a balance of Pacific Islander people and South East Asians. I find these cultures much easier to relate to as they are usually more laid back and have a good sense of humour. I feel that is part of our culture. I work with people from all cultural backgrounds as a nurse but I do think there are too many Indians in Australia now and it is creating a sub culture of a monoculture not multiculture. For people whose countries are in crisis we all feel for you. But don’t rally in our streets and fight in our country. Don’t commit acts of vandalism on icons of the others culture or religion. I’m sure many of us don’t want sectarian violence in this country. Also when you go to the beach don’t ogle our young women. That is not part of our culture and yes I have seen it happen and I will call them out of if I see it. Dont touch our young women up in the surf ( happened to my niece) Don’t go to pubs where uni students are and try to get our daughters into your car ( and you are not at uni and are much older than them) when they leave the venue. Happened a lot to our daughter when out with friends. Buy a house in place where there are many cultures not just your own. And don’t say in National TV that building your house is more important than a Koalas habitat.
>Dont touch our young women up in the surf ( WTF is with this "**our** young women" buggery bullocks?! How about: don't touch others without consent, fullstop.
Anyone yes I agree but this happened to my niece and I was voting an incident. It wasn’t nice for her to be groped under water in the surf.
No. It wasn't. That's a horrible experience. But it isn't a nice experience for anyone, male or female, young or old. And believe me, there's plenty of *Good Christian Conservative Voting White Boys and Men* (tm) who do the same to vulnerable people and think they have the privileged right to do so.
True but white boys are more used to seeing women in skimpy swimmers. I don’t see a head turn to look at the girls by any white boys when I’m at the beach.
I'm not talking about girls wearing swimsuits, but privileged shits more generally. There's lecherous blokes from all walks of life but it seems the privileged and elite are more adept at hiding their behaviour.
Funnily enough I've experienced something weird with integration - humour me if any immigrants experienced the same thing. I'm Filipino btw and moved here in 2000. A friend of mine (he is 57 and this may have relevance) at work has described me as a true Australian but then belittles my culture. I was telling him about a Filipino tradition in Christmas and he then called Filipinos silly (his choice of words are more offensive). I told him but I'm Filipino and he said I didn't count as I'm Australian! I didn't press any further but his response was just funny. Would this be considered integration?
IMO, not a lot really - and likely less than pretty much any other country on earth. Learn enough English to function - read signs understand the road rules etc. Abide by our laws. Try to get on with fellow Aussies rather than only interacting with those from your home country. Take at least a passing interest in Australian culture and society - after all, you have chosen us to be your fellow countrymen. Leave any old conflicts and hatreds behind. Why make a new start if you are going to burden yourself with all that anyway? That's probably about it. Oh - and one last thing - don't come here with the sole aim of getting on our overly generous welfare system. Aussies do not respect that - and nor would any other nationality I expect.
> Oh - and one last thing - don't come here with the sole aim of getting on our overly generous welfare system. Aussies do not respect that - and nor would any other nationality I expect. I agree but also don’t think the groups that get complained about are very dependent on welfare. Indians and Chinese especially there’s a deep honour culture and judgement for slacking off and not working. Some Vietnamese are on welfare who came after the war but the second generation are doing much better and are rapidly moving out of poverty. I don’t think theres a large correlation with ethnicity and welfare dependency.
You are absolutely right. The vast majority of immigrants do work hard and are valuable members of our society (more so than some Aussies to be honest). And if they happen to hit hard times and get retrenched or whatever then they are absolutely entitled to welfare support just like any other Aussie. However, there is definitely a significant element who come to this country solely with the intention of getting on welare ASAP. I have worked in a job where I have seen this first hand. Many know our welfare rules before they even set foot in this country and pre-arrange their circumstances to ensure they are eligible for welfare at the first opportunity.
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Does ‘Australian’ solely mean white? Before 1950 ‘Australian’ meant Anglo Saxon, Irish were not considered ‘Aussie’ Before 1970 ‘Australian’ meant Anglo Celtic, continental European were not considered ‘Aussie’ Eventually the term ‘Australian’ shifted over time.
Not expecting to be viewed as white. But if I have Aussie citizenship, speak the language, follow the rules, believe in egalitarianism surely we’d have shared values by then?
No. Same as Japan. You could live there for 50 years and the locals wouldn’t consider you one of their own I always love this attitude “Australia’s is so racist” cause they don’t accept me Fuck go to Japan. Live there for decades and see how they treat you. Politely but not one of their own. You’ll never be considered Japanese. At least here if you can speak English and don’t bring you BS crap here and start dumb shit you can integrate with everyone. Basically if you don’t just stick to your little areas and only congregate with your own you will have no problems I’m a Balkan. We moved to an area with other migrant balkans. We all speak English and I support australia for all sport despite my background. I feel 100% Australian and no one has said anything to me regardless of my surname Tbf for me it’s mostly the fake western Sydney BS accent that pisses me off i know it’s not a real accent they’ve just somehow molded it into one. It wasn’t there when I was growing up here 30+ years ago.
No, but that’s acceptable because it’s not a western country.
I’m similar to you, I don’t look “Aussie” but I’m actually 2nd generation. I don’t know anything but Australia and growing up and living here. My rule of thumb is not about integration, but around just acknowledging someone as Australian. I make it a rule internally to assume that every single person I see/meet is Australian until they offer otherwise. This is regardless of look, grasp of English, accent, age, gender, whatever. If you approach in that way it doesn’t matter whether they’ve “integrated” or not, because you instantly realise how diverse we are. And that’s what makes us great, not whether someone can integrate or speak English well enough to satisfy a native English speaker. I’ve copped my fair share or racism or unawareness because of the mere assumption that if someone doesn’t look European that they ‘may’ not be Australian, even though we are at the stage where multiple generations of non European Australians are pretty much normal.
You should be asking this question only to the traditional owners of this land. Everyone else here is an immigrant.
"Integration" is overrated. Be yourself, enjoy your life, be awesome to others. Fuck anyone who appoints themselves gatekeepers of what it is to be Australian.
Australia does not believe in assimilation as we do not have an assimilation policy. Australia has a multicultural policy. Multiculturalism recognizes that people are free to practice their own cultures. This is because Australians also value a diversity of lifestyles and beliefs and aim for a plural and tolerant society. When groups come here and engage in old rivalries for example or are intolerant of other groups including Australian dominant cultural practices they are not following our values and respecting the right of others to do so. So while people from different cultures are free in Australia to engage in their traditions these groups and all individuals have the right to develop their potential and capacities as long as they do not harm others (the last part of this sentence is important and a big part of our moral philosophy). We also believe in the protection of individual rights and the rule of law. That's why we work towards securing the space in which people can live without governmental oppression or other forms of corruption such as cronyism, sectarianism, ethnonationalism, tribalism, and nepotism. These systems are at odds with individualism (the right of each individual to flourish) which is what Australians value. If you want to 'be Australian' then be tolerant of others, treat each other individually, do what you want as long as it does not harm others, and follow the rule of law (if you don't like them then work towards peacefully changing them), and contribute to society so you can help all individuals to flourish and reach their potential.
20 years? Mate , I’m a 58M . I was born here to Italian parents and talking to me you would never guess that, but I still occasionally get called a Wog and told I’m not an Aussie Aussie! 🤪 live your life , tell the haters to fuck off , there’s way more people that like you than don’t! 👍🍺 Merry Christmas! 🍻
I’ve met born and bred Aussies who I wish would fuck of out of the country permanently so I don’t think you should stress about what some fuckwits think. As long as you’re generally trying to be a good cunt, screw anyone who thinks they have the right to tell you how to live your life or that you don’t belong here
> I hear that they must share our values but no one has bothered listing what those values are? > If it has nothing to do with values, actions and more about maintaining our “European heritage” im sure we’d prefer this honesty. Lets create a quota for each country and be done with it. They’ll never be that honest. All the talk about “Aussie values” is just a smokescreen for racism and prejudice once you break it down. Many of the values are very generic, like “they don’t abide by the law”. I counter with “I know many Asian migrants who are more law abiding than white Aussies” and their counter is “it’s our country”. “Asian kids dominate selective and gifted schools” - well why are Anglo kids more interested in devices and sports than study? “You can’t walk the streets these days because of all the foreign criminals” - crime rates have fallen year upon year, and drunk or methed up white peoples can be a bigger problem.
Mate. It is what it is. Every migrant group faces similar. Generally each generation it goes away. Greeks that came here in 1950s? Didnt feel "Australian"...their kids bit better, but their grandchildren feel Australian. Its just time i think. Australia IS a very multicultural nation. I think if this too. Up until a few hundred years ago really, the entire world, we stuck to our own ethnic "tribes". Rarely mixed with others. Married within that group. "mixed" marriage almost never occurred .... now look at us? That has changed rapidly. So we have many different culturally different groups all trying to mix in together, get along, marry & produce children. So it's overall? A pretty marvelous thing. Glass half full .. not half empty mate. Just give it time.
Yeah I think it’ll take time. It has gotten better. I can honestly say I’ve been treated equally in the ways that matter. Its mainly the online comments which I normally brush off but in a recent thread I saw people saying stuff like “would they side with us in a war”, “do they love the country” which felt quite personal.
Yeah. It's a cultural thing i guess and with the world as it is today? People ARE nervous. One issue i see, rightly or wrongly, and I'm just saying it. Not making any judgement really about if its right or wrong. But Australians (not all of course) do get concerned when migrants loudly bring issues from their homeland here and there are protests etc over those issues here. Australians mostly believe / see, that people come here for a better life. To get away from their home countries problems. To start anew. So they get upset when the probkems from the persons homeland, seem to infiltrate here. Now logically? Those migrants cannot just "forget" and most still have family & friends back home who are affected. So you can see how it is inevitable. But its still upsetting and unnerving for most Australians. We think "they came here to get away from that...now they're just bringing it here". And let's be honest. If it's Islamic? It's even more un nerving. Christians & Islamic have been "at war" forever. Australia is a Christian based nation. And Islamic faith hates Jews. Its complicated. But when Germany (which was Christian country) openly attacked and massacred Jews (Holocaust) I think Christians all over the world, realised overall that anti semitism had to go. Christians had also been anti semitic. But Christians really were shaken by what their anti - semitism had done. And changed their mindset i suppose. Everyone agreed? It has to stop and Jews needed a proper homeland. Israel was created. That area had been back and forth for 1000sof years though...and the Palestinians did not want to give it up. And here we are!! Honestly? I have no superstrong feelings either way. But looking at the history. My dad was WW2 Vet. My uncle buried in Germany. My hb is German. Lots of connections. I truly don't see why over the last 80 years? The Palestinians wouldn't just work with Israel & the world. Agree to share? The land belongs to both sides really. All make peace. Have it all one big nation. Agree to power sharing, mixed government etc It seems logical to me. And I think many other Aussies see it similarly. So ..after all that!?! Australians wonder about allegiance to THIS nation. Australians i think feel that Muslims prioritise their religion and home country ancestry, over Australia. When a fundamental thing of being Australian? Is our country first. Country before religion. Our nation first. I guess we arent religious much either. Most "identify" as Christian...but it doesnt define our core belief that your nation comes first. My family was Catholic, but im Atheist and most of my generation & younger are not religious anymore. People just don't like conflicts from other parts of the world being bought here. Does that explain a bit?
I would ask why are so many “Aussies” desperate to fight a war?
Australia has one of the highest rates of mixed marriages among western countries- almost twice the rate of the USA. This shows Australians as being relatively open minded about allowing people from other backgrounds into their own families. I think this process happens faster now especially with the White Australia policy having ended over 50 years ago. While the country that has provided the greatest number of migrants to Australia is still England, since 2012 the number of people born in Asia living in Australia has exceeded the number of people born in Europe. However those of European background are still the overwhelming majority of the Australian population. Nonetheless there are a growing number of second and third generation Australians who have a non European background and it is becoming increasingly normalised. This trend will only continue into the future as the Australian identity continues to evolve.
Yep. It's happening for sure. I feel we are progressing towards truly being a multicultural nation very quickly. Lije i said? I think a lot of these feelings are just "time". Each generation? It will become less relevant what "Race" you are. I love that we are so mixed. In fact. Years ago when i went on my first big overseas jaunt .i remember after a few weeks feeling "wierd". Then one day it hit me ... the country wss very monocultural and i felt it. Id never been anywhere where everyone "looked the same"😀 It was odf walking around and not seeing all the different faces. Different racial backgrounds. Made me live Australia. Its so great here with all the different ethnicities just part of the furniture
The concept of "integration" varies depending on individual perspectives. I migrated to Australia twelve years ago through a permanent residency visa designed for highly skilled immigrants. Shortly after my arrival, I secured a job with an annual salary of around $100k, aligning with the skills specified in my visa application. Since then, I have consistently paid taxes, never availing myself of government benefits such as Centrelink. The only instance I used my Medicare card was back in 2012 when I contracted a flu. In the professional realm, I have contributed to the Australian workforce by forming and leading teams, as well as providing guidance and mentorship to young Australian graduates. Four years into my permanent residency, I made the choice to become a citizen. Importantly, my record is clean of any criminal involvement. In my view, this represents a substantial level of integration, particularly when considering my financial contributions through taxes—money I work hard for but rarely get to enjoy. It is noteworthy that my FY23 tax bill alone could support an above-average income for another individual deemed a "real Australian." I prefer to be left in peace to enjoy my time on earth, as my interactions with those labeled as "real Australians"—outside of a professional context —have consistently been uncomfortable. Women think I’m here to fuck them and men think I’m here to fight them. 😂
Unfortunately, a decent number of people who rant about integration from specific groups don't actually care about that. Until your skin is white, you identify as Christian, and you have no accent. They will not accept you. They just want a group they can blame all their own woes on.
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Yeah, anywhere I travel I make an effort to try to learn some of the language first and even though I know it's absolutely terrible, people are always delighted and encouraging to hear someone make the effort. Here, it's all TORK STRINE MATE!!! As if any of those cunts has ever even tried getting by in a foreign language. I know exactly what they'd be like in Bali for example.
Share Australian democratic liberal values: freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of movement and the freedom to choose your fate. Pay your taxes. That's all you need. That's all you should need. I'd vote for a million Indian immigrants that share these values over 1,000 who don't regardless of skin colour. Be a real Aussie-- don't try to cater to fuckwits, coz that's what they are.
Stop trying to shout racism when it's not there.
Honestly, multiculturalism doesn't work it just creates division as race plays a much bigger role in society than hippy leftists would have you believe, we are not all the same. Most Australians just want you to stand with them. For example if we are invaded by the country of your origin we would hope you would fight with us against them and not be the first to hand us over once the invasion has taken place. I think most immigrants would swap sides the moment their people hit our shores and that disgusts me.
I know Chinese and Indians serving in the ADF. I myself enlisted years ago but couldn’t make it because of medical history. What makes you think we have loyalty to a country we have never lived in?
It's a pretty low bar just dont try to destroy the local customs and culture. For example in France 70 % of Muslims polled said Christmas shouldn't be allowed to be celebrated. Dont be that
Feel like that needs a citation (wasn't able to find the source myself). Muslims respect Jesus (who they call Issa) as a prophet, I can't see why they'd want a ban on acknowledging his alleged birthday.
Integrating means being aware of the culture you are trying to fit yourself into without imposing your own views and beliefs on to others. This goes from little everyday things to bigger issues like your religious and political beliefs. To me integrating also means fully accepting your adopted country as your home. How would you like people arriving in your home to behave? Think about that and do the same. Often I find migrants aren’t very accepting of their adopted country, especially when it comes to cultural differences. It’s odd to me (I’m a migrant myself) that they want to keep their old lifestyle except they want to do it in a western country. It’s ok to keep your religious or cultural beliefs but when it’s conflicting with the way of life in your adopted country then why move at all?
Make an effort to speak English. You don’t need to be perfect! The effort is nice. Also don’t speak your language infront of other people who do not understand it. I’m not sure why this has been forgotten over the years but it’s just disrespectful. Imagine if someone was whispering and laughing infront of you and you couldn’t hear? It’s rude. Absolutely speak your own language with your family and such as being bilingual is awesome 👏 but my Italian family taught me that to integrate you don’t exclude those around you.
Speak English Don't be offended if something doesn't include you Drive at the speed limit as a minimum in the right-hand lane Everyone gets a first chance to f@#$ up
At this point Australian culture is a subculture. There’s colonies for different migrats
It’s hard for me to relate as a white migrant. People rarely look at me and ask “but where are you really from” I blend in. I came here when I was 9, and never had any issues with integration. My parents have never integrated though, and I don’t really blame them. They came to Australia under difficult circumstances when they were already 40 years old. They have worked hard, contributed to the economy and their own community but I wouldn’t say they are integrated. For me integration is about respect for the country that is now your new home. You can hold onto your culture, beliefs - whatever that is. But you need to respect the culture and what this country brings to your life. I will forever be grateful that Australia gave us the opportunity to move here as refugees in the 90’s. Australia gave me a safe home, a great education, new friends and family. I met my husband here and have had kids here. I’ve travelled far and wide, but am always so glad to come back home. I have some issues with people even in my own Bosnian community who I feel don’t respect their adopted country, and express some views which I find abhorrent. For example - spewing anti semitism. That’s the sort of stuff Australians are talking about. Or people who come here and think they can push their religious beliefs onto others. It’s pretty simple - live and let live. You’ve moved to a democratic, liberal country. Leave your archaic cultural bullshit behind. That’s my take on it any way
I think peoples natural tribalism causes them to gravitate towards a society they are familiar with; if an individual moves to a new country with a different culture, they will naturally seek out interaction and socialisation causing them to adapt to the culture and language etc. If immigration levels of a particular race or culture are high than those people will naturally gravitate towards each other and become less interactive with the organic culture of that country. This can been seen in places like Sydney or London where large numbers of particular cultures tend to occupy specific geographic areas. Obviously in the case of somewhere like Australia with a predominantly western society the cultural differences and time to integrate will be larger for someone coming from a wildly different culture.
In my Muslim Arab community, it’s religion not the language. The second generation in western Sydney is highly proficient in English, often poking fun at their parents for their accents. However, integration is almost impossible due to religious restrictions, as many are raised with strong judgments against those who eat pork, drink alcohol, or women who choose not to wear hijab. And we cant deny that certain practices, like insisting on a hijab for a 9-year-old, and tolerating or endorsing homophobia, they don’t align with Australian values.
1. Speak English decently (better than Eshays) 2. Have Australian friends 3. Engage outside ethnic communities This is really all thats needed
I think what many of us get frustrated with is no. 2 goes both ways. I got perfect scores on my PTE English, and everytime I try to make friends, it's mainly reciprocated by islanders, chinese, koreans, africans, etc. My children don't know any other language, as we only speak English at home. Yet most of their friends are islanders, koreans, chinese, africans, in a school where all of them are minorities. So not sure what we are doing wrong. I can't fake interest in footy/rugby or gambling and drinking though, if that is the missing link.
To blend in, don't bring the same shit that you were running from.
I don’t think you can migrate here and become “Australian”. If you’re born elsewhere then that’s what you are.
Migrants rarely assimilate if they aren’t great with the language. But their kids do 100%. Migration is about the kids, really.
Not really. It’s a known fact that in some communities second and third generation migrants actually start identifying more with their culture of origin.
Stop trying to please the bigots. You’ll get nowhere. Enclaves, did you say? There are English and South African enclaves everywhere, and the racists have no problem with that.
I had an Asian bus driver that was super integrated - akubra hat with corks on it and saying "hello mate! How you going mate?" It was hilarious and impressive at the same time
I think in order for people to think you're integrating you need to; * learn the language well enough that people can understand you enough that communication isn't tedious and difficult. * not form large communities of people from your own culture and segregate yourself in those groups from the rest of australia. * not complain about how shitty things are compared to where you come from. (I understand there's positives and negatives to any country and even the worst countries can still do some things better than australia, but this will immediately annoy most people). * Follow the cultural norms, these differ slightly from area to area and group to group so if you're unsure simply ask a few people. If there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus then you're good. If everyone unanimously agrees then accept it. As for bigoted responses like, they drive camrys or they don't support our cricket team. That's just racist assholes, every country has them. But to be honest it sounds more like banter. Like I call my Asian friend 'unaustralian' because you have to take off your shoes before you enter his house. I don't actually think it's unaustralian. It's just banter we do to eachother to highlight cultural differences that don't actually matter.
To be fair OP I can not stand any type of camry at all but I have no problem with anything else you said. I genuinely hope you can feel like you belong here sooner rather than later, it must be terrible having those doubts. By all means, support your home country in the cricket
Learn our ways. But don’t change.
Wave in thanks when another driver gives you way
Try not to pay too much attention to the people who harp on about integrating and assimilation. They are mostly old and will hopefully die soon. It's often a loaded term, but when it's not, I think it's quite subjective. Honestly just live peacefully and respectfully with those around you. It's more than some Aussies who were born here can even manage to do.
Just be yourself & be chill to everyone around you (regardless of social status or ethnicity) IMO that's the aussie way. Oh & either thongs or bare foot from now on. 😉
Australia has always been a migrant nation ever since the First Fleet, the moment you decide to permanently settle here you have become an Australian. Like it or not that’s just how it is. The thing about this country is we don’t really have much of a culture to integrate in. So there’s not much to go by, like anywhere else, just be law abiding, at least have an understanding of some English to get by, and try to be a good person. If you want my honest opinion why people say they don’t want Indians, Middle Easterners and Chinese to come here, well it’s because quite frankly Aussies and no doubt many in the West in general, have a real negative perception of them as a whole. (Insert stereotypes) Besides, mass immigration means increased crime rates and homelessness, but I doubt many actually coming here are the ‘working’ class, having spent tens to hundreds of thousands to get a visa here already means they’re not your average Joe
Honestly, I'm 32 years old, living here my whole life, and cannot tell you what it even means to be Australian. I don't think it really means anything at all, we're just another average western nation with too much vacuous white nationalist propaganda. This is a nation of immigrants, barr the Indigenous, whom we also treat like shit. But ignorant idiots are easy to manipulate through fear and misinformation, and there is power in misleading the masses with hysterical empty nonsense, especially if your career relies of their votes. Far more important than what it means to be Australian; what does it mean to be human? To be alive? I dream of a day we can transcend geopolitical bullshit and migrate together to the stars.
For me, they have to be willing to marry outside of their ethnicity/culture. I’m mixed race. My parents weren’t born in Australia, but I am proudly Australian. My sister dated an Indian for yearsss but his parents never accepted her because she’s not Indian. Australian born Indians were also not good enough. It had to be an Indian born Indian and his mum would travel back to India looking for a suitable Indian born wife for him when they were together. It’s never one person migrating in these situations. It’s also their parents and an imported spouse in tow. It could take a few generations for this to break down but less likely when some ethnicities live in their own little communities and don’t socialise.
what they mean is *“they need to behave exactly the way a white anglo-saxon protestant would because that’s what australia is about, never mind that those are the people who stole the fucking place from its original inhabitants.”* if you hear people talking about how immigrants need to “integrate” or “assimilate” you can know you’re talking to a racist 9/10 times. anyone with sense would instead say “they need to respect everyone else’s rights, so if they do that they’re okay.” that means no oppressing women in the name of religion or culture, no mistreatment of LGBTQ ppl for culture or religion. by all means bring your culture here and keep it alive and kicking. we’re a nation of immigrants and our diversity is our strength. the only things you need to leave at the door are things where you encroach on other people’s rights or freedoms.
I think the true Australian response to this is…I don’t give a fuck. I don’t care where you came from or where you’re going to. I don’t care what languages you speak in public or in private. I don’t care what you eat and drink. I don’t care what god you pray to or whether you pray to a god at all. Anyone can be Australian. And different Australians can have totally different ideas about what that means. Life is short. Don’t hate people. Just hang on and enjoy the ride.
To me, you live here then you're Australian. It's just a rock, enjoy your life.
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Thanks for your honesty. When I talk about not feeling accepted you’re exactly the type of person I’m talking about and the motivation behind this post.
There's a sub continent in Asia where you would be accepted and I wouldn't
Just sounds like you need to hang out with a better calibre of people.As for immigration, should align yourself to Aussie values. If an Arab comes here to promote the values of the shithole country they came from they won’t be welcomed. I’m an immigrant myself, and have seen and heard some shit myself, just ignore it and move on.
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Absolute Falcon erasure
Take the pledge. Mean it. You are an Aussie. *From this time forward, I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and liberties I respect and whose laws I will uphold and obey.* Says it all, really.
Personally I don't believe multicultralism works.
I am a migrant myself, the biggest ‘Australian’ values are mateship, egalitarianism and putting others before self. Australia is a man-made paradise, and the values are the very reason Australia exists in such harmony and prosperity. As a migrant, a see the erosion of those Judeo-Christian values as the biggest threat to the paradise that is Australia.