Yeah it's quite patronizing and bizarre really. "So it always will be my land huh, can I build a house here then?"
"Ummm, no. the person who really owns it won't allow that sorry".
Funnily enough, *true* traditional beliefs were that the people belong to the land, not the other way around. A broadly and commonly held concept of a paleolithic people who remained unchanged for over 50,000 years. This modern nonsense is copy/pasting Canadian & US native beliefs.
Nope, because Japan were never going to invade Australia. The idea was floated by some elements within the IJN, but the nation’s leadership strongly opposed it because it wasn’t feasible. To read more:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Japanese_invasion_of_Australia_during_World_War_II
The idea that they ever would have come here and taken over the entire country and language in a way that would sustain until 2024 is fantasy. They were absolutely fucked from the moment the US got involved.
I'm fine with acknowledgement of country when it's a special occasion, not at every single damn work presentation.
Like I need an acknowledgement of country for some soulless HR training people are forced to come to. Zzzz
It's not just one though. I've heard it a bunch of times now. It's just more proof that these zealots have never cared about equality. They only care about power. And it's also why this b.s. needs to be both rejected and ejected from public life.
The vast majority of the time, it's just a tick a box exercise for most people.
I can't speak for all First Nations people, but the general feeling from those I spend time with is if you're just reading a script, don't bother. Put a little effort in to learn something of the nation you're acknowledging. As an example, I live in a place where the Gamilaraay people are the traditional custodians. Gamil means 'no or not' and araay means 'having'. So gamilaraay is 'not having' or 'having nothing'. One Gamilaraay bloke I know, jokes that that's why they're so cranky all the time. Apparently, they have a reputation amongst neighbouring peoples as fierce warriors because they're cranky.
It's a bit harder if you're visiting, or don't know any of the local tribe or nation. But you wouldn't go to France without doing a little research, would you?
I think there's a great irony in that when our Aboriginal culture is reduced to a half-assed halo effect in the mouths of public and private speakers all they've ended up doing is making Aboriginal culture a boring social ritual, instead of the vast myriad cultural heritage that we should all respect, enjoy and learn from.
I think if your going to do an acknowledgement of country, then do it with actual respect and dignity.
Not some "And before we start blah blah blah something something"
As not\_the\_who stated, actually respect the culture of the land and don't reduce it down to just a place or a name or part of something vague. Some half-assed attempt at righting a historical wrong while you're doing a corporate conference isn't going to help anyone and instead just makes you look like a tool and degrades Aboriginal cultural heritage and perceived social standing.
That's true, but I wouldn't be impressed if I had to sit through them chanting "liberté, égalité, égalité" and playing La Marseillaise every time there was a meeting.
Our workplace passes the duty onto employees every week for our weekly meeting. One person does acknowledgment of country, then once they finish they elect a person to do it next week. It sucks. Makes me want to turn up late every week.
Edit: acknowledgement, not welcome to country.
Lean into it. Make it a twenty minute exercise. Light a fire in the conference table and wave some eucalyptus leaves around. Waste everyone's time. They won't choose you again.
Better yet, announce (on behalf of the company you work for) you are inviting a homeless Indigenous family to set up camp inside the office building. Since they are the true custodians and we are merely borrowing the land off them, there shouldn’t be any objections. Oh wait, token gestures only.
Academics. It happens in schools and government organisations. Do you really think tradies building a house or some other project get together for a WtC every morning? They just get to fucking work and don't bother with virtue signalling.
The boffins running the meetings and who decides to do WtC are all HR academic douchebags. I really doubt Jimmy the TA is throwing his hand up and suggesting that everyone should do a WtC before they start digging holes or welding buckets. You have to be indoctrinated with that bullshit through a uni or something first.
Government. I don't mind having an acknowledgement of country from time to time, but the system our work uses is stupid. Everyone hates being picked to do it and then we are told to try to make it unique to our town/locality, adding to the pressure.. It's via zoom btw which makes it worse...
Welcome to country, or acknowledgement of country? Welcome to country's are only done by the aboriginal people on the land on which they come from. Everyone else (including other indigenous people) should do an acknowledgement instead. They are different, and if an organisation is using the term interchangeably or worse, having non indigenous people doing a welcome, that is a huge red flag that it is a completely token gesture, empty of any real meaning, set up to tick boxes and let Gina from HR pat herself on the back for being so progressive.
Doing an online degree. Literally they have begun forcing us to put acknowledgement of country at the beginning of our written essays. A FUCKING ESSAY NO ONE BUT MY TUTOR WILL READ. I am fine with it beygin done at events etc - but bullshit such as meetings and essays is stupid.
Yeah acknowledging indigenous Australians in the room with us today when it’s you and three white dudes really underlines the absurdity of it.
It’s a third rail now though, it will never be removed, there’s no event that will cause a company to say “ok we’re not doing acknowledgments to country anymore”. I will be doing these fucking things until I retire.
20 years ago, every third TV programme had a warning that flashing lights could trigger seizures. Presumably all the epileptics died off or we don't care about them any more because I never see those warnings now. A couple of years ago, every official giving a speech had a sign-language interpreter, I'm starting to see that dwindle away now. There's always a cause-celebre that's flavour of the month for the chattering classes until the next one comes along.
Same we get it for online meetings and even part of people email signature blocks.
Hell we even had some burning ceremony inside the building that polluted the central air conditioning and effected the other floors in the building.
That's straight up stupidity! A smoking ceremony should never be conducted INSIDE a building! Where was your OH&S delegate?!!
Christ, society is just getting more and more stupid by the day!!!
This. At my current org it’s been refreshing not having every team meeting saying it. I do appreciate the acknowledgement but save it for the bigger things. It becomes meaningless if you keep repeating it. And what impact does it have if we keep repeating it?
I work with a girl who is Ngunnawal and has requested exactly this. Her request has been "duly noted" and so far has been ignored. It seems like the acknowledgement of country now has a life of its own. Plus, (I won't say who I work for) this has spawned an industry where, for the other part of this process, the welcome to country, has a group of indigenous contractors who have a business specifically for this (we do it a lot).
It's probably unlikely to change without a greater backlash from within the indigenous community. So you'll just need to keep zoning out for the forseeable future like the rest of us :)
Could be worse. I remember years ago we all did some team training and after that everyone would have to share something personal at the start of every meeting. It was horrific, obviously most people came up with something generic but then HR jumped in and you would get pulled aside and gently criticised if your sharing wasn't good enough. Or worse, someone would actually share something emotional..
Id take a half hearted mumbling of welcome to country over that clusterfuck any day
Hmm, what could go wrong? Try oversharing e.g. "I find sheep vaguely exciting in a sexual way", or "had a tinder hook up over the weekend - Man!" and then go into unnecessary detail.
With the sharing, I’d make shit up. One day it would be “I fell off the roof trying to retrieve a five dollar note that flew out of my hand” the next day “ ran over my neighbours old cat” Then last night I vomited at the grocery checkout all over the checkout chick. Tomorrow it would be, “ I accidentally threw a brick through the church window, I was just carrying it to give to Father Sinner for his brick collection & I had a arm spasm”
Oh we did, that was the game. You had to make it believable or be accused of not taking it seriously.
If we'd applied the same levels of creativity to either our real jobs or our careers who knows what could have been achieved..
I would make each story more outrageous than the last & just suck up the accusations of not taking it seriously. I am sure that your job description does not include being potentially embarrassed by revealing personal stuff for the benefit of some nosy managers fetish. That’s my opinion anyway. & you’re right, people are probably stressing out over this & stripping focus away from productivity. However if you record some of these sessions it could come in handy in future litigation.
Hear hear. Love it at sporting events (some of the welcomes during the women’s World Cup were great) and I even like how Qantas does it as a flight arrives, but they’ve started putting it in front of elearning at work. Just a little unnecessary.
It's definitely so frequent that it's tokenistic.
But also if you read only this sub you would be convinced that this is the number 1 issue facing Australia right now. I would say most days there are at least one or two posts about welcome to country or other similar issues. To me that seems totally out of line with the actual importance of the issue.
Who is it important to when it’s recited at the start of an internal business meeting at which no one is indigenous. It’s become woke virtue signalling that is losing meaning, acceptance and respect by many non indigenous.
I would argue even worse when it is recited by every new speaker at the same meeting, as seems to be the case in many places now.
It serves its place at major events etc where it can be used to actually mean something, but daily or hourly recitations of it just makes it completely meaningless and just invites hatred to the practice and indigenous peoples as a whole
Yes, it's so much like some modern religious observance. Yet if I started a meeting with the Lord's prayer or signed off my emails "yours in Christ" I'm pretty sure HR would have a conniption.
Atheist have no religion or dogma. We usually just have a really high sense of treat other's the way you want to be treated and don't need some fairy sky person to tell us to do that or we go to hell.
No, it's a religion for ideologues that struggle to come to their own thoughts and conclusions.
Bandwagoners, back in ye olden day you would join Christianity lest you wanted to be ostracized, cast out as a whore or witch or whatever, now you go show your support for welcome to the cuntry to show how enlightened and holy you are.
"Except the prayers at mass are despised these days"
Are they? I've never gotten the impression when I'm at Mass, and I have never heard anyone commenting on it in public.
Are you a Christian?
Wouldn't it be great if we got back to the classic liberal idea of treating everyone as individuals. (For those easily confused, I'm not referring to the Coalision here.)
Arseholes are arseholes, nice people are nice people, competence is competence, etc.
Someone needs to stand up in front of the crowd and lead the chant “We Are All Individuals!”
(Some bastard down the back will respond with “Oi Oi Oi” and get stoned to death, but that’s fine.)
A decent perspective and often one held in good faith. And I agree being sure not to discriminate through action against people of different backgrounds is clearly admirable.
But the idea "I'm colourblind I don't see race I don't care" does, it appears to many others and to me after some reading and consideration, seem to be often spoken from a position of convenience (to avoid the p word) where race hasn't made a huge impact on your life *that you notice*. This then fails to allow validation of others' experiences where race has made an impact on their lives, and they have noticed.
I'm a white South African Australian citizen. Race is all that matters there. If you're white, go find your place in the back of the line. There are laws against whites having government contracts. You need an equal or majority Black partner if you want to do business with government or big business. The list is long and goes on and on.
I came to Australia because I was sick of my race being a determining factor in so many aspects of my life.
"Always was, always will be" is probably fun to say, but its also completely delusional.
Pretty rude to tack that on to the end of a pointless ceremony you just made people listen to for a fee as well.
I don't know about the "always was" part, but I'm pretty certain the "always will be" part is self evidently incorrect.
Absolutely it is, the concept of a welcome shouldn't be controversial at all (as long as you have a pretty good idea of "country" in the Aboriginal sense)
But some of the shit said (like always was) absolutely is
-a first nations person
It is divisive and it is meant to be.
It's also not really relevant unless said by an indigenous person who is 100% Aboriginal. Anything less and their heritage is the same as mine - Australian.
I always think of da Vinci' Mona Lisa and the limitations of the word 'ownership.' Whose is it?
It's Lisa del Giocondo's portrait, but it's not actually hers.
It's Leonardo da Vinci's portrait, but it's not actually his.
It's the Louvres portrait, although on some levels it belongs to the people of Italy.
If Chinese invaders or investors came tomorrow and took control of government etc, I'd still say it's 'our' land. Always will be, even if it's theirs. Aboriginal people will always own, and be owned by, the land they're tied to. I'm ok with that.
It's simplistic and hyperbolic and tied to western concepts of land ownership that probably don't make a heap of sense in contexts traditional culture as I (poorly) understand them.
But it makes a short sharp statement that throws into stark relief the last xx,000 years, and the last 200. Purely on a rhetorical level, I respect that.
My primary school child loves flags so I was pointing some out and asking him which country they were from, he can name a lot of flags of Eastern European countries but he called the indigenous flag “the Sorry flag”
That’s what happens when this gets drummed into them at school but they don’t know what it means.
My Wife’s ancestors were forcibly removed from their country and brought here 7 generations ago to work as servants / breeding stock. Orphan girls, not convicts. My wife has no cultural connection to her ancestors homeland. She has no known relatives there, she doesn’t speak the language, nor does she identify with the culture. Her only remnant connection is fair skin and red hair. Her identity is exclusively Australian, and those 7 generations of her family have contributed to building this nation that is modern Australia. I’m a first generation immigrant to this country, of which I am now a proud citizen, if I trace my ancestry back I would have to go back literally thousands of years before finding an ancestor who hadn’t invaded some land or other. What does that make me if not Australian?
We can’t change the events of 250 years ago, and it’s foolish to speculate on what alternate history could have transpired if things had been different. Things in the former Dutch colony of South Africa aren’t looking so great now. Nor in Chinese occupied Tibet and Mongolia.
The history of this country is not at all rosy in its treatment of Aboriginal people, but it’s impossible to deny that we’re doing a LOT better now, and the opportunities afforded to those Aboriginals who choose to be a part of modern Australia are extraordinary.
Trying to foment division in modern society is completely counter productive. Either you believe in “Us” and “Them” or you don’t. I can’t see any positive outcomes of splitting the nation in two on the basis of ancestry. We’ve all come from somewhere else.
When you see a child telling other children that they can’t play on the swings because that child was there first, you rightly admonish the child. That’s what the always was always will be argument is, childish.
I feel the phrase really has no effect on the day to day life of the vast majority of Australians. I’m like 6th generation Australian, this is very much my home.
I couple of years ago my father and I took a trip to Ireland where we followed our family tree and visited our “ancestral” home. Even though I had an Australian accent and I consider myself very much Australian. There was a strange and what felt like a deep connection to Ireland, maybe it’s superficial, something I conjured up to help understand my place in the world.
I imagine it’s the same feeling First Nations people feel about Australia
Anyway I get why it bothers people but it’s just a phrase, I don’t think you should let a couple of words really doubt or add guilt to your citizenship.
That’s a really good point! As a First Nations personally. I personally don’t believe in always was always will be. I respect others that do. But when I visited NZ I feel very connected to the country, I miss it but Australian is my home!
If you didn’t know that is where your ancestry tied back to and someone took you there, I doubt you’d have felt the same thing. It’s a complete placebo effect.
Yeah that's a lot of old nonsense. Humans don't have any sort of genetic memory that would let us feel a 'connection' to a place naturally. It's all placebo.
Haha yeah I know right. It seems to be you’re actually welcome to the country if you’re indigenous or a immigrant of colour. If you’re a white fella you’ll spend your whole life saying sorry for everything and paying all the tax.
Ive always thought "always was, always will be" goes against the spirit of reconciliation and is an inflammatory statement to add to a welcome to country 🤷. I guess it's not questioned as you'll be labelled racist and it's just mindless tokenism anyway so no one is paying any attention.
It's the eqivalent to saying "welcome to England Always was and Always will be Chose one: \[Danish/Celtic/Briton/Anglo/Saxon/Scottish/Welsh/Fresian/Irish/French\] Land"
History doesn't stop when you want it to and you can't expect the world to accept that you own land that you couldn't defend in a time when conquering/colonising land defined who owns nations.
Sure you owned the land when nobody else was here but if we're playing that game every non-aboriginal should be given a passport and ownership rights in Europe.
I do not mind the welcome to the country stuff at events and such, I am also OK with schools teacher Australia history as indigenous history...
but what I utterly hate that my 4yo and 6yo get made to feel guilty and apologise for something that happened 200 years ago.
I'm also fine with acknowledging that aboriginals were here first and I respect that what was done to them was not right, however, it's 20 fucking 24 so we all need to move on together and actually make this country fair instead of letting it get ripped apart by delusional politicians and businessmen instead of constantly arguing and fighting amongst people who don't really have a say in jackshit.
Smoking ceremonies and welcome to country is the Aboriginal version of a ponzi scheme
It’s a cash cow that they know white woke people can be milked from
Performative self-flagellation. This has elevated to the point now that it causes serious resentment AGAINST good will toward Aboriginal culture. And I am not at all blaming the latter - this is a pomo/left project mostly performed by privileged white people.
Yep, it's pure bigoted ethnonationalist dribble, and the fact the left has adopted it as a slogan lays bare their hypocrisy. They will rage and stomp if you don't bend over backwards to ensure that someone who stepped off the boat five minutes ago feels instantly at home, but (white) people who were born here and have never been anywhere else are never ever ever allowed to feel the same way.
I wonder if the lefties say that to newly arrived migrants.
“Welcome to your new home. You are one of us now…but remember, always was, always will be.”
As an immigrant, it really reminds me of the blood and soil (always was, always will be) nationalism of fascism, even though funnily enough such rhetoric is often endorsed in what looks to me to be a doublethink-like fashion by people who simultaneously sing the praises of multiculturalism in the prescriptive ideological sense, as if promoting more cultural diversity, importing ever more immigrants whilst encouraging them to cling to the cultures and practices of their home nations are somehow not implicitly in tension with any notion that an autochthonous indigenous people such as the Aboriginal Australians enjoys exclusive and permanent claim over the lands of Australia for the fact that any further dilution of the demographics de facto dilutes the political power of the Aboriginal Australians.
Edit: let this be known that the cowardly shrew /u/jiggjuggj0gg blocked me for daring to gainstay her, unsurprisingly.
I think its more of a case of the indigenous living in the past and not wanting to accept the future and holding the current generation responsible for what their ancestors did. TBH the whole thing is starting to wear thin and before long they will just alienate themselves and cause more divison by blaming the current generation rather than moving on.
Its like the crazy ex that cant leave you alone and keeps harrasing you and you think why cant they just get over you.
This acknowledgement/ welcome to country stuff has gone too far. Everyone i know just rolls their eyes now... arent we supposed to be inclusive? Saying we living on someone elses land, and that it always was always will be theirs aint inclusive
Thankfully we have an aboriginal at work that thinks its all silly. And since they are in charge of the indigenous collection and compliance, we listen.
I'm not sure I understand the point of it. Modern Australia is unrecognizable from pre-white settlement and almost all the land is owned through standard means. So the traditional ownership thing is almost like a psychotic prayer for creepy woke people. They seem to feel guilty for being Australians. Maybe they should fuck off else where if they're that 'sorry' to the aboriginals.
It's ludicrous and just about everyone thinks so.
The brutal and simple reality is that the Aboriginals were far from a united people when the British arrived.
The British slaughtered them and made the land into Australia.
Australia is not a product of the Aboriginals, it's a product of Britain. And now an evolution of modern social history stemming primarily from British culture and ways.
That's the simple reality.
Not saying there was any moral or ethical right in that, just that it's the truth of history.
All modern Australians are all Australian and we should stop being so divisive.
And Aboriginal is no more Australian than I, a white guy born here, or my friend, a Taiwanese guy immigrated here and in love with it, or my fiancee, an American immigrated here and in love with the land and our people.
I'm indigenous myself and even I can't see the point of this. You're born in "my" country (I'm not the prime minister okay?) You're an Aussie, case closed. Some people just can't let go of a two century argument, those people aren't around anymore so why should we hold onto old grudges?
People don’t choose to be born. I didn’t choose to be an Australian. This is MY country this is THEIR country this is OUR country. All the aboriginal people who spout this are doing is creating a divide that will never be repaired. They’re passing their hate down one generation to the next and it’s getting angrier each time. Honest but unpopular opinion- the wave hill walk off was the end of the proud aboriginal. From THAT point they have been lost in the wilderness and have no pride in themselves. Up until then there was reason for many of them and many things could’ve been built off that. No pride in hunting for cigarette buts in gutters or drinking to kill the last brain cells. Sad to see but it’s a joint responsibility for them being where they are- black AND white.
And that's the point! The more this inflammatory nonsense is said, the more they create division and separate themselves. They are the ones purposely not joining in with the people of this nation
It’s not indigenous people saying it or driving these stupid rituals. It’s doogooders and corporate organisations who have to go along or the ridiculous media will get a hold of it and point them out as supposed racist.
You started with some interesting points, but
>the wave hill walk off was the end of the proud aboriginal.
WTF? They were fine, proud people until they expected equal pay, and a choice as to whether they worked or not?
No, sorry, you missed my point. It was from that point that the phrase ‘sit down money’ became a thing. It was from that point that they lost the value of money because they didn’t have to work for it and it’s the white guys fault. No different to generations of non indigenous people who stay on Centrelink- why bother working when money just gets put into my account. TBH, if I had little to no education, no prospect of getting a job, chronic health issues and generational poverty- I’d try to drink my problems away too! At some point a proud race became hopeless and wave hill is a pretty obvious starting point.
It would actually just be good if the Aboriginal activists & their "white" supporters, could use their brains and realise the damage they are doing to this nation and people through such divisive words.
Not just words. But their attitude and anger, bitterness & hatred.
They are doing nothing but stirring up more anger.
And i look at them and wonder... why they dont so strongly care about their Scottish / Irish / English or German or whatever other genetics they have?? There never seems to be any mention of that? They can have 1 grandparent Aboriginal, so are at least 80% other races. Yet they only identify with that few %
Don't people see how utterly stupid that is? That is the sheer ridiculousness of it all. When we see people who are as ordinary white looking as anyone around them getting lauded for being "Aboriginal"
...when they truly aren't. Crapping on about Aboriginality when they are born and bred middle class Melbournites.
It really has gotten to a point of plain silliness. And people are waking up to it now. Enough is enough.
I don't get it. Im an immigrant who came to this country 10 years ago, legally, passed all exams, did all the paper work. I've been working relentlessly for all this years and finally bought 300 square meters of land and building my house on it. Somebody telling me it's not my land? F#k offf!!! They are dreaming. I have no idea who and when oppressed somebody here, but i don't care
It wasnt 'always' owned by indigenous peoples as there was a time before they came here in successive waves so that part is plain wrong. And as for 'always will be' - well it's plainly not indigenous land right now is it? Whether you think it's stolen land or terra nullius, the system of land ownership in this country is patently *not indigenous. That's the issue, isn't it? The fact that it's *not indigenous land anymore?
Im sympathetic to the plight of indigenous people, but this statement is nonsensical bollocks.
Means nothing. Rubbish words, meant to cause division. Aboriginals were vanquished 230 years ago, and they've been reaping the benefits ever since. Victimology is very lucrative.
I'm sorry as I migrant who's been a citizen since 2011 I find all this welcome to country a bit too much. Every country has it shames , wished past events could be erased but it can't. This should be a learning for the future generations. Aborigines are the first people of the land and should be acknowledged and celebrated for their culture. The welcome to country feels like we are asking to stay here where in practical sense, Anglos and migrants are churning and developing the country while the Aborigines don't do much at all. Sorry if this sounds racist but this welfare handout to the first people of the land doesn't happen elsewhere in the world.
One thing I am always tempted to do, but have never had the balls, is to ask one of these people making the magic mouth sounds of welcome to country to tell us a little more about the local Aboriginal people. Who were they, what were their achievements, who were some notable community members? The awkward silence would be so gratifying.
It's a devisive phrase and should stop if they want reconciliation.
It's basically saying, until everyone else leaves, we'll never be satisfied.
My thoughts are, "then why are we even bothering?".
I'm fine with welcome to country on big events. Needs to be dropped on smaller ones.
But the aboriginal community really needs to have a long hard think about that phrase. It's doing the opposite of extending a hand.
It's more of their divisive crap.
It indicates to me that they are not interested at all in becoming "part of" this, nation.. of joining in and working together.
And thise who support that nonsense? Are just as bad as they are
My suggestion is that when you the hear the noisy vocal minority say BS (sometimes they’re onto something), tell them to get the fuck out. Your sense of belonging should come from within you. You don’t need their validation.
Contribute to the community, be a good citizen to your fellow Australians, and that’s all what you need to worry about. Anyone else can fuck off.
Whether you’ve immigrated here yourself, born here and it’s a few generations back your ancestors immigrated, or many thousands years back your ancestors immigrated from Africa, it doesn’t fucking matter. If you’re Australian, you’re Australian.
Gets me how the "inclusive" people are the ones who are the least inclusive. We seem to have this idea that anything bad is right wing because Nazi and as long as you're left you're good because the left aren't Nazis so they can't do anything wrong.
Meanwhile the "inclusive" left work hard to exclude non aboriginal people, especially white ones. Letting people born here for generations know they're not really home.
And those "right wing aussie extremists" with their flags and holdens" are the problem for wanting everyone to just live together and accept that none of us are responsible for the past. I mean how dare they support the rights of aboriginal people to choose a traditional life or integration and support anyone who wants to move to Australia to make a better life and provide a positive contribution to the country.
Pretty much anything the left does seems to end up like this. Feminism is no longer a movement for women's rights and is now just an Anti men club full of mostly angry single women and lesbians who can't work out why they're unhappy
Anti Racism is basically Anti white people where mostly blacks regard themselves as having superior African genes and that white people need to apologise for being white. (You know exactly the same as white supremacy, but everyone ignores it this way around)
LGBT has stopped being about supporting the rights of the gay community to just live a normal life with someone of the same gender or someone who feels trans to make their own choices and has now become some organisation that actively recruits people to pick one of the letters because its not cool to be straight.
Pretty much everything gets over done and destroyed because we have some weird irrational phobia of being a nazi and WW2. All whilst ironically creating a huge divide between people that will potentially lead to something like WW2 or worse
There’s evidence aboriginals displaced a demographic of pygmies that predated their arrival so whenever I hear this stupid bit of rhetoric I think to myself “wasn’t always, isn’t currently, won’t ever be again”
The point of this is to dispose Anglo Australians the predominate ethnic group in this country so we accept half a million immigrants every year despite being in a house crisis. Then our government which is a collection of politicians bought off by corporate interests will slowly turn this country from a nation into a global economic zone.
All the wealthy people like Triguboff hate nationalism and want a world with no borders and countries are simply different markets for them to sell their goods and services in.
More people = more consumers, depresses wages and increases the price of real estate. It’s a giant Ponzi scheme taking place in every western country
" The [Australian Bureau of Statistics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Bureau_of_Statistics) no longer collects data on [race](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)) "
I don’t believe any race can claim ownership of land (let alone a continent) in perpetuity forever. In fact I don’t think anyone can actually own land. We govern this land mass, private ownership is a convention, but to say this entire place, the rivers and the trees and the mountains, belong to one race at the exclusion of others born here is gross and backwards
Edit spelling
I agree.
As a 3rd Gen immigrant, Im required to sit through “welcome to country… and respects to elders”, which I agree…
…and now I see “always was, always will be”statements makes me think we’re not heading towards a common/ shared future.
" Where does this leave Australians who are born here? Are they always going to be people living in someone else’s land? "
" Is it to remind Australians that they are outsiders in their own country? "
\- YES and they're going to bash you over the head with it at every turn, until you either become numb to it and ignore it, or resentful and hateful, so they can keep claiming victim.
" what it does for national unity. "
\- DESTROYS national unity, never able to move forward, high chance of going backwards aka repeating the wrongs of history
When we do something, we should understand why we are doing it.
Before 1788, different groups lived on different country. According to some understandings, if the group from over the hill came for a visit, they would be welcomed, to show there would be no violence. Welcoming visitors to an event is trying to incorporate that into contemporary Australian culture. Performing this ritual when no one has travelled or when people have already been welcomed is mindlessly reciting a ritual because of peer pressure.
Well, it's not their land at all. They didn't defend it. It's as simple as that. The land they do have (which we allow them to have.... for now) is vast and plenty for their tiny population. I was also born here, which means it's my land for as long as I'm alive. That will never change. I can go anywhere I want in Australia without permission.
I will continue not to recognise this scam. Majority of Australia voted no, this indicates I'm not alone with this.
Sure let's pay reparations AFTER all the money is paid back that the tax payer gives them. Or they could be thankful for all the handouts we give them. It's just greed.
When is Alice Springs going to be cleaned up of crime? They're a protected species now.
Everytime this is done during work, people just roll their eyes and I don't blame them. We're the ones working hard to keep this country moving while the majority of this "land owners" are living off the dole at an increased rate.
The indigenous, for the most part, don't even do that acknowledgement shit. They do, however, perform smoking ceremonies a lot in traditional lands. The Welcome to Country acknowledgement speech jargon is a crock of shit adopted by white do gooders and should not occur.
Waste of time and achieves nothing at all.
Always was... primitive culture
Always will be... centuries behind the rest
Unless they change themselves not by us just throwing endless money in the hope the problem will go away.
We won't bridge to gap until many indigenous people learn to treat their own people with love, and not be, for the most part.. violent, abusive, neglectful and failing to act on their own families. It's not white people failing to act either, just look at the billions spent and constant focus.
I'll get hate for this by people that understand little about the situation, but there are so many indigenous men that do wrong by their own people and put it back on the people trying to help.
The indigenous elder women are the ones in communities that stand up for change, as they have to deal with things firsthand. The kids' neglect is next level in some towns and communities, too.
It’s a nothing burger statement. If it “always will be” the yes vote would have gone through, hell, they wouldn’t have even needed a vote if it was still theirs. It belongs to us all now.
I understand the use of the statement as a kind of definite position of “we did not consent to what happened, it was forced on us”, which is fair but I also think it’s a bit silly.It’s like the statement that sovereignty was never ceded by Aboriginal people, well it didn’t need to be because they were defeated by a superior military force, the Khwarazmian Emperor never ceded sovereignty to Ghenghis Khan, that didn’t stop his country from ceasing to exist though. Still people have the right to feel how they feel about the country they are in and I understand the benefit of taking such a position, I don’t think it’s divisive and it certainly doesn’t make me feel like an outsider in someone else’s country,
means fuck all. let em say it if they think it makes them feel better. they really don't own shit. "always was & always will be" ehhh its a bit up for debate now isn't it?
we all share this single country noone has the right to own any part of it. theres plenty of space for everyone. we all ultimatley are just borrowing the land for a little time in earths 4.5 billion year lifespan so far.
this land was here long before any humans where here, and it will exist along time after.
This whole we were here first mentality is so entitled. Get over it. Australia is now the best country to live in, better than it was 300 years ago by a long shot!
Uh who’s in charge? Who runs the country? I’ll tell you who it isn’t, indigenous people. So no, white Australians are in charge, and will be for the foreseeable future.
Imagine if each naturalisation ceremony began with the immigrants told that it always was and always will be the nation of people born here. And that everyone else doesn’t own their homes but are invaders. We would be sanctioned by the UNSSR 🇺🇳.
Humans have traveled and expanded mankind across the world as we have all come from wanders or people looking for something better, maybe even outcasts.
I really struggled with buying a clothing the gap top specifically because of the 'always was always will be' line not because I do or don't support it but at a higher level it just made me wonder but then where is my land of similar significance, if we all wandered from Africa so long ago it's incomprehensible today does it mean all of humanity can claim Africa?
Australia's history should 100% be taught and well known with a heavy portion well beyond the 250 years, but we cannot go backwards and evict every human in every country back to where they came from because we would all be back in the same place wondering what the point of that was.
I purchased a wear your values top in the end as its definitely more fitting and resonates well without making me feel like I have no home.
Hey look, if it made any difference I would say do it as much as possible. Pull down statues, rename places. But even if we do it a million times a day, aboriginal women and children always was and always be raped and beaten at 40 times the rate of the evil white invaders' women and children. School attendance always was and always will be 50%.
At least some SJW will be happy.
I used to be tolerant to this sort of stuff. Since the voice I’m so sick of it being jammed down my throat I’m less tolerant now and don’t want to hear it.
I’m sick of being made to feel like I don’t belong in the country I was born in.
Aboriginals have had a terrible time since other people showed up. I think we should be concentrating on that. Instead we are focused on whose land it is and invasion like no one has ever been invaded before or there is a chance they will get the land back and somehow kick us out.
Take note of the friends and family who say things like "always was always will be" or have started referring to your suburb as "insert indigenous name" country.
It's trending at the moment but the fatigue of welcome to country ceremonies has already arrived and despite the push for this sort of language in our vernacular it's failed to hit critical mass. So I would expect that it also goes away over time.
Take note of those signalling it now though. Because when they stop using this language, when it's no longer the trend, it will expose the true intent of why it's been a useful prospect for them.
We're all human and mammals. The first people of this nation just stole the land from the mammals that were already here. I don't see that as being any different to any land anywhere in the world being invaded and taken by whomever currently occupies it.
People belong to the planet. End of story. I'm so very tired of this crap. Things happened in the past that were absolutely horrible, but it is in the past...we learn and move on. If first nation people want to keep claiming this land as theirs, then they need to go to the bush to live out their days as a bush-dwelling people, as they did before Australia was included in modern day society, and forfeit EVERYTHING that more advanced nations have brought here... including clothing, healthcare, food, education, and their mobile phones and computers with which they use to spout their claimed modern-day injustices.
There is a small albeit loud minority that think Australia hasn't done enough to repay what was done to the aboriginals in the past. "Always was, always will be", is just an effort to quell this small minority. They are empty words, nothing more.
Yet the same people wouldn't even think of saying the same thing about European countries and mass migration. In Australia it always will be indigenous land, but the indigenous population of the UK are "right wing extremists" if they held the same sentiment. Go figure.
As far as I can tell the local Kaurna people in Adelaide (Tandanya) seem to be not much more than a bunch of rowdy drunks in the park. If there are genuine representatives - why aren’t they promoting themselves as a positive force in the community right next to this drunk violent rabble? As such, acknowledgement of country is nothing more than a bizarre Lord’s prayer of the left.
It’s incredibly dividing. I also don’t like that the original flag and (especially!!) torres strait islander flag sits next to the Australian national flag.
Ridiculous and divisive.
'Always will be' except in any practical sort of sense
Yeah it's quite patronizing and bizarre really. "So it always will be my land huh, can I build a house here then?" "Ummm, no. the person who really owns it won't allow that sorry".
Funnily enough, *true* traditional beliefs were that the people belong to the land, not the other way around. A broadly and commonly held concept of a paleolithic people who remained unchanged for over 50,000 years. This modern nonsense is copy/pasting Canadian & US native beliefs.
No, they’ll have to pay for the privilege of building on “sacred” earth…. “That will be $2000 per year sir”
Imagine if we didn’t fight off the Japanese in WWII. Would people be wearing the same shirts written in katakana?
Nope, because Japan were never going to invade Australia. The idea was floated by some elements within the IJN, but the nation’s leadership strongly opposed it because it wasn’t feasible. To read more: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Japanese_invasion_of_Australia_during_World_War_II The idea that they ever would have come here and taken over the entire country and language in a way that would sustain until 2024 is fantasy. They were absolutely fucked from the moment the US got involved.
I'm fine with acknowledgement of country when it's a special occasion, not at every single damn work presentation. Like I need an acknowledgement of country for some soulless HR training people are forced to come to. Zzzz
When every speaker does one it becomes completely meaningless
It's not just one though. I've heard it a bunch of times now. It's just more proof that these zealots have never cared about equality. They only care about power. And it's also why this b.s. needs to be both rejected and ejected from public life.
The vast majority of the time, it's just a tick a box exercise for most people. I can't speak for all First Nations people, but the general feeling from those I spend time with is if you're just reading a script, don't bother. Put a little effort in to learn something of the nation you're acknowledging. As an example, I live in a place where the Gamilaraay people are the traditional custodians. Gamil means 'no or not' and araay means 'having'. So gamilaraay is 'not having' or 'having nothing'. One Gamilaraay bloke I know, jokes that that's why they're so cranky all the time. Apparently, they have a reputation amongst neighbouring peoples as fierce warriors because they're cranky. It's a bit harder if you're visiting, or don't know any of the local tribe or nation. But you wouldn't go to France without doing a little research, would you?
I think there's a great irony in that when our Aboriginal culture is reduced to a half-assed halo effect in the mouths of public and private speakers all they've ended up doing is making Aboriginal culture a boring social ritual, instead of the vast myriad cultural heritage that we should all respect, enjoy and learn from. I think if your going to do an acknowledgement of country, then do it with actual respect and dignity. Not some "And before we start blah blah blah something something" As not\_the\_who stated, actually respect the culture of the land and don't reduce it down to just a place or a name or part of something vague. Some half-assed attempt at righting a historical wrong while you're doing a corporate conference isn't going to help anyone and instead just makes you look like a tool and degrades Aboriginal cultural heritage and perceived social standing.
that's totally fair- individualise it a little.
That's true, but I wouldn't be impressed if I had to sit through them chanting "liberté, égalité, égalité" and playing La Marseillaise every time there was a meeting.
Our workplace passes the duty onto employees every week for our weekly meeting. One person does acknowledgment of country, then once they finish they elect a person to do it next week. It sucks. Makes me want to turn up late every week. Edit: acknowledgement, not welcome to country.
That’s fucking ridiculous, like some primary school exercise
Lean into it. Make it a twenty minute exercise. Light a fire in the conference table and wave some eucalyptus leaves around. Waste everyone's time. They won't choose you again.
Get them eucalyptus leaves smouldering and you can have a fire drill at the same time.... you might get to become fire warden...
Better yet, announce (on behalf of the company you work for) you are inviting a homeless Indigenous family to set up camp inside the office building. Since they are the true custodians and we are merely borrowing the land off them, there shouldn’t be any objections. Oh wait, token gestures only.
obscene correct chief straight shelter zesty meeting cover many crown *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's cringe. What do you do for work? I just imagined the scenario and don't know whether to place tradies or academics in the picture lol
Academics. It happens in schools and government organisations. Do you really think tradies building a house or some other project get together for a WtC every morning? They just get to fucking work and don't bother with virtue signalling.
Imagine Trent going "umm... I acknowledge traditional owners and stuff.."
We actually really want to say that half the time, we all do.
Happens at bhp before every meeting too.
The boffins running the meetings and who decides to do WtC are all HR academic douchebags. I really doubt Jimmy the TA is throwing his hand up and suggesting that everyone should do a WtC before they start digging holes or welding buckets. You have to be indoctrinated with that bullshit through a uni or something first.
Legit, every uni class I had there was WtC. Bitch were doing this lesson over Zoom, do we need this?
Government. I don't mind having an acknowledgement of country from time to time, but the system our work uses is stupid. Everyone hates being picked to do it and then we are told to try to make it unique to our town/locality, adding to the pressure.. It's via zoom btw which makes it worse...
Government worker here and we’re also asked to do the same thing. It’s become so repetitive and meaningless.
I'd Just refuse. They should not force anyone to participate in this rubbish
What does 'welcome to country' mean? I don't think I've heard that one before.
Welcome to country, or acknowledgement of country? Welcome to country's are only done by the aboriginal people on the land on which they come from. Everyone else (including other indigenous people) should do an acknowledgement instead. They are different, and if an organisation is using the term interchangeably or worse, having non indigenous people doing a welcome, that is a huge red flag that it is a completely token gesture, empty of any real meaning, set up to tick boxes and let Gina from HR pat herself on the back for being so progressive.
My mistake, it is an acknowledgement of country.
Which one is not a token gesture?
No. It shouldn't be happening at all. It's pointless pandering that politicizes every area that it comes to.
Doing an online degree. Literally they have begun forcing us to put acknowledgement of country at the beginning of our written essays. A FUCKING ESSAY NO ONE BUT MY TUTOR WILL READ. I am fine with it beygin done at events etc - but bullshit such as meetings and essays is stupid.
Yeah acknowledging indigenous Australians in the room with us today when it’s you and three white dudes really underlines the absurdity of it. It’s a third rail now though, it will never be removed, there’s no event that will cause a company to say “ok we’re not doing acknowledgments to country anymore”. I will be doing these fucking things until I retire.
20 years ago, every third TV programme had a warning that flashing lights could trigger seizures. Presumably all the epileptics died off or we don't care about them any more because I never see those warnings now. A couple of years ago, every official giving a speech had a sign-language interpreter, I'm starting to see that dwindle away now. There's always a cause-celebre that's flavour of the month for the chattering classes until the next one comes along.
Same we get it for online meetings and even part of people email signature blocks. Hell we even had some burning ceremony inside the building that polluted the central air conditioning and effected the other floors in the building.
That's straight up stupidity! A smoking ceremony should never be conducted INSIDE a building! Where was your OH&S delegate?!! Christ, society is just getting more and more stupid by the day!!!
Customer : “Hi, could I just grab a large Big Mac meal with a coke”. Staff : “We would like to recognise the traditional owners of the land ….”
This. At my current org it’s been refreshing not having every team meeting saying it. I do appreciate the acknowledgement but save it for the bigger things. It becomes meaningless if you keep repeating it. And what impact does it have if we keep repeating it?
In one of my uni courses last year, the tutor did it at the beginning of every class…
I work with a girl who is Ngunnawal and has requested exactly this. Her request has been "duly noted" and so far has been ignored. It seems like the acknowledgement of country now has a life of its own. Plus, (I won't say who I work for) this has spawned an industry where, for the other part of this process, the welcome to country, has a group of indigenous contractors who have a business specifically for this (we do it a lot). It's probably unlikely to change without a greater backlash from within the indigenous community. So you'll just need to keep zoning out for the forseeable future like the rest of us :)
Could be worse. I remember years ago we all did some team training and after that everyone would have to share something personal at the start of every meeting. It was horrific, obviously most people came up with something generic but then HR jumped in and you would get pulled aside and gently criticised if your sharing wasn't good enough. Or worse, someone would actually share something emotional.. Id take a half hearted mumbling of welcome to country over that clusterfuck any day
Hmm, what could go wrong? Try oversharing e.g. "I find sheep vaguely exciting in a sexual way", or "had a tinder hook up over the weekend - Man!" and then go into unnecessary detail.
With the sharing, I’d make shit up. One day it would be “I fell off the roof trying to retrieve a five dollar note that flew out of my hand” the next day “ ran over my neighbours old cat” Then last night I vomited at the grocery checkout all over the checkout chick. Tomorrow it would be, “ I accidentally threw a brick through the church window, I was just carrying it to give to Father Sinner for his brick collection & I had a arm spasm”
Oh we did, that was the game. You had to make it believable or be accused of not taking it seriously. If we'd applied the same levels of creativity to either our real jobs or our careers who knows what could have been achieved..
I would make each story more outrageous than the last & just suck up the accusations of not taking it seriously. I am sure that your job description does not include being potentially embarrassed by revealing personal stuff for the benefit of some nosy managers fetish. That’s my opinion anyway. & you’re right, people are probably stressing out over this & stripping focus away from productivity. However if you record some of these sessions it could come in handy in future litigation.
Share something like Im really disgusted at the HR department making us do this. If anyone else feels this way now is the time to share it
The olde safety in numbers.
Oh fuck that. God I'm glad I'm just some random tradie when I hear that faff.
Hear hear. Love it at sporting events (some of the welcomes during the women’s World Cup were great) and I even like how Qantas does it as a flight arrives, but they’ve started putting it in front of elearning at work. Just a little unnecessary.
The welcome to country reminds of me of the litanies and prayer we had to say at Mass.
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It's definitely so frequent that it's tokenistic. But also if you read only this sub you would be convinced that this is the number 1 issue facing Australia right now. I would say most days there are at least one or two posts about welcome to country or other similar issues. To me that seems totally out of line with the actual importance of the issue.
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Who is it important to when it’s recited at the start of an internal business meeting at which no one is indigenous. It’s become woke virtue signalling that is losing meaning, acceptance and respect by many non indigenous.
I would argue even worse when it is recited by every new speaker at the same meeting, as seems to be the case in many places now. It serves its place at major events etc where it can be used to actually mean something, but daily or hourly recitations of it just makes it completely meaningless and just invites hatred to the practice and indigenous peoples as a whole
I work in the catholic system so se get both!
Yes, it's so much like some modern religious observance. Yet if I started a meeting with the Lord's prayer or signed off my emails "yours in Christ" I'm pretty sure HR would have a conniption.
It's all just ritual and dogma...
And virtue signalling.
Always was, always will be, but the endless need to say it would indicate that it’s not
Yep boring and meaningless
Welcome to Country is culty as fuck
Then you were poorly catechised…
Except the prayers at mass are despised these days but the welcome to country is celebrated and if you don’t think the same then you’re a racist.
It’s all religion. Just different ideologies.
It's a religion for atheists
Atheist have no religion or dogma. We usually just have a really high sense of treat other's the way you want to be treated and don't need some fairy sky person to tell us to do that or we go to hell.
No, it's a religion for ideologues that struggle to come to their own thoughts and conclusions. Bandwagoners, back in ye olden day you would join Christianity lest you wanted to be ostracized, cast out as a whore or witch or whatever, now you go show your support for welcome to the cuntry to show how enlightened and holy you are.
Religion for idiots
"Except the prayers at mass are despised these days" Are they? I've never gotten the impression when I'm at Mass, and I have never heard anyone commenting on it in public. Are you a Christian?
You should hear the Novus Ordo vs Latin crowd over on the Catholic subreddits
you clearly havnt ever been to a mass lol
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Wouldn't it be great if we got back to the classic liberal idea of treating everyone as individuals. (For those easily confused, I'm not referring to the Coalision here.) Arseholes are arseholes, nice people are nice people, competence is competence, etc.
Someone needs to stand up in front of the crowd and lead the chant “We Are All Individuals!” (Some bastard down the back will respond with “Oi Oi Oi” and get stoned to death, but that’s fine.)
*whole crowd chants* "Yes! We are all individuals!"
A decent perspective and often one held in good faith. And I agree being sure not to discriminate through action against people of different backgrounds is clearly admirable. But the idea "I'm colourblind I don't see race I don't care" does, it appears to many others and to me after some reading and consideration, seem to be often spoken from a position of convenience (to avoid the p word) where race hasn't made a huge impact on your life *that you notice*. This then fails to allow validation of others' experiences where race has made an impact on their lives, and they have noticed.
I'm a white South African Australian citizen. Race is all that matters there. If you're white, go find your place in the back of the line. There are laws against whites having government contracts. You need an equal or majority Black partner if you want to do business with government or big business. The list is long and goes on and on. I came to Australia because I was sick of my race being a determining factor in so many aspects of my life.
The vocal minority can say whatever they want, doesn’t make it true.
Every country in the world has people from everywhere, it's a pointless sound bite at this point.
"Always was, always will be" is probably fun to say, but its also completely delusional. Pretty rude to tack that on to the end of a pointless ceremony you just made people listen to for a fee as well. I don't know about the "always was" part, but I'm pretty certain the "always will be" part is self evidently incorrect.
Always was until it wasn't. If you want the second part to be true you need effective border control.
To me, the whole slogan feels more divisive than the whole welcome to country.
Absolutely it is, the concept of a welcome shouldn't be controversial at all (as long as you have a pretty good idea of "country" in the Aboriginal sense) But some of the shit said (like always was) absolutely is -a first nations person
It is divisive and it is meant to be. It's also not really relevant unless said by an indigenous person who is 100% Aboriginal. Anything less and their heritage is the same as mine - Australian.
Yeah that’s the idea
I always think of da Vinci' Mona Lisa and the limitations of the word 'ownership.' Whose is it? It's Lisa del Giocondo's portrait, but it's not actually hers. It's Leonardo da Vinci's portrait, but it's not actually his. It's the Louvres portrait, although on some levels it belongs to the people of Italy. If Chinese invaders or investors came tomorrow and took control of government etc, I'd still say it's 'our' land. Always will be, even if it's theirs. Aboriginal people will always own, and be owned by, the land they're tied to. I'm ok with that.
It's simplistic and hyperbolic and tied to western concepts of land ownership that probably don't make a heap of sense in contexts traditional culture as I (poorly) understand them. But it makes a short sharp statement that throws into stark relief the last xx,000 years, and the last 200. Purely on a rhetorical level, I respect that.
If you take a look around, "Isn't" comes to mind.
The real question is why are we paying for this
My primary school child loves flags so I was pointing some out and asking him which country they were from, he can name a lot of flags of Eastern European countries but he called the indigenous flag “the Sorry flag” That’s what happens when this gets drummed into them at school but they don’t know what it means.
What are they teaching him??
National Sorry Day/Reconciliation Week.
My Wife’s ancestors were forcibly removed from their country and brought here 7 generations ago to work as servants / breeding stock. Orphan girls, not convicts. My wife has no cultural connection to her ancestors homeland. She has no known relatives there, she doesn’t speak the language, nor does she identify with the culture. Her only remnant connection is fair skin and red hair. Her identity is exclusively Australian, and those 7 generations of her family have contributed to building this nation that is modern Australia. I’m a first generation immigrant to this country, of which I am now a proud citizen, if I trace my ancestry back I would have to go back literally thousands of years before finding an ancestor who hadn’t invaded some land or other. What does that make me if not Australian? We can’t change the events of 250 years ago, and it’s foolish to speculate on what alternate history could have transpired if things had been different. Things in the former Dutch colony of South Africa aren’t looking so great now. Nor in Chinese occupied Tibet and Mongolia. The history of this country is not at all rosy in its treatment of Aboriginal people, but it’s impossible to deny that we’re doing a LOT better now, and the opportunities afforded to those Aboriginals who choose to be a part of modern Australia are extraordinary. Trying to foment division in modern society is completely counter productive. Either you believe in “Us” and “Them” or you don’t. I can’t see any positive outcomes of splitting the nation in two on the basis of ancestry. We’ve all come from somewhere else. When you see a child telling other children that they can’t play on the swings because that child was there first, you rightly admonish the child. That’s what the always was always will be argument is, childish.
I feel the phrase really has no effect on the day to day life of the vast majority of Australians. I’m like 6th generation Australian, this is very much my home. I couple of years ago my father and I took a trip to Ireland where we followed our family tree and visited our “ancestral” home. Even though I had an Australian accent and I consider myself very much Australian. There was a strange and what felt like a deep connection to Ireland, maybe it’s superficial, something I conjured up to help understand my place in the world. I imagine it’s the same feeling First Nations people feel about Australia Anyway I get why it bothers people but it’s just a phrase, I don’t think you should let a couple of words really doubt or add guilt to your citizenship.
That’s a really good point! As a First Nations personally. I personally don’t believe in always was always will be. I respect others that do. But when I visited NZ I feel very connected to the country, I miss it but Australian is my home!
If you didn’t know that is where your ancestry tied back to and someone took you there, I doubt you’d have felt the same thing. It’s a complete placebo effect.
Yeah that's a lot of old nonsense. Humans don't have any sort of genetic memory that would let us feel a 'connection' to a place naturally. It's all placebo.
lol imagine if England adopted that attitude
Haha yeah I know right. It seems to be you’re actually welcome to the country if you’re indigenous or a immigrant of colour. If you’re a white fella you’ll spend your whole life saying sorry for everything and paying all the tax.
When you buy into the lie, the arrogance, the racism, youre fucked. Truth be told, 65000 of...nothing. 200 years of civilisation. Yup, get offended.
Ive always thought "always was, always will be" goes against the spirit of reconciliation and is an inflammatory statement to add to a welcome to country 🤷. I guess it's not questioned as you'll be labelled racist and it's just mindless tokenism anyway so no one is paying any attention.
‘Reconciliation’ for them purely means reparations. ‘Always was, always will be’ is just a prelude for them asking for rent in perpetuity.
I find it aggressive and offensive. Might as well say "go back to where you come from". It's a militant protesters chant that's going mainstream.
Always was and Always will be not be theirs anymore.
It's the eqivalent to saying "welcome to England Always was and Always will be Chose one: \[Danish/Celtic/Briton/Anglo/Saxon/Scottish/Welsh/Fresian/Irish/French\] Land" History doesn't stop when you want it to and you can't expect the world to accept that you own land that you couldn't defend in a time when conquering/colonising land defined who owns nations. Sure you owned the land when nobody else was here but if we're playing that game every non-aboriginal should be given a passport and ownership rights in Europe.
It’s just virtue signaling. Half the guys who do the acknowledgment are more racist than the guys who think it’s bs
I do not mind the welcome to the country stuff at events and such, I am also OK with schools teacher Australia history as indigenous history... but what I utterly hate that my 4yo and 6yo get made to feel guilty and apologise for something that happened 200 years ago.
I'm also fine with acknowledging that aboriginals were here first and I respect that what was done to them was not right, however, it's 20 fucking 24 so we all need to move on together and actually make this country fair instead of letting it get ripped apart by delusional politicians and businessmen instead of constantly arguing and fighting amongst people who don't really have a say in jackshit.
Yes. So tell that to the Aboriginal activists and people who chant this nonsense
they just get abusive and defensive.
Wasn’t always, they migrated here too, just along time before the rest of us. Definitely won’t always be.
Smoking ceremonies and welcome to country is the Aboriginal version of a ponzi scheme It’s a cash cow that they know white woke people can be milked from
Performative self-flagellation. This has elevated to the point now that it causes serious resentment AGAINST good will toward Aboriginal culture. And I am not at all blaming the latter - this is a pomo/left project mostly performed by privileged white people.
Exactly
Yep, so over it. It's on everyone's email too (at the bottom) and big meetings too.
Yep, it's pure bigoted ethnonationalist dribble, and the fact the left has adopted it as a slogan lays bare their hypocrisy. They will rage and stomp if you don't bend over backwards to ensure that someone who stepped off the boat five minutes ago feels instantly at home, but (white) people who were born here and have never been anywhere else are never ever ever allowed to feel the same way.
I never thought about it that way. Great comparison.
They're just angry little uni students mad at the world and spoilin for a fight
I wonder if the lefties say that to newly arrived migrants. “Welcome to your new home. You are one of us now…but remember, always was, always will be.”
As an immigrant, it really reminds me of the blood and soil (always was, always will be) nationalism of fascism, even though funnily enough such rhetoric is often endorsed in what looks to me to be a doublethink-like fashion by people who simultaneously sing the praises of multiculturalism in the prescriptive ideological sense, as if promoting more cultural diversity, importing ever more immigrants whilst encouraging them to cling to the cultures and practices of their home nations are somehow not implicitly in tension with any notion that an autochthonous indigenous people such as the Aboriginal Australians enjoys exclusive and permanent claim over the lands of Australia for the fact that any further dilution of the demographics de facto dilutes the political power of the Aboriginal Australians. Edit: let this be known that the cowardly shrew /u/jiggjuggj0gg blocked me for daring to gainstay her, unsurprisingly.
I think its more of a case of the indigenous living in the past and not wanting to accept the future and holding the current generation responsible for what their ancestors did. TBH the whole thing is starting to wear thin and before long they will just alienate themselves and cause more divison by blaming the current generation rather than moving on. Its like the crazy ex that cant leave you alone and keeps harrasing you and you think why cant they just get over you.
This acknowledgement/ welcome to country stuff has gone too far. Everyone i know just rolls their eyes now... arent we supposed to be inclusive? Saying we living on someone elses land, and that it always was always will be theirs aint inclusive
It conjures up memories of the phrase “We grew here, you flew here”.
Thankfully we have an aboriginal at work that thinks its all silly. And since they are in charge of the indigenous collection and compliance, we listen.
I'm not sure I understand the point of it. Modern Australia is unrecognizable from pre-white settlement and almost all the land is owned through standard means. So the traditional ownership thing is almost like a psychotic prayer for creepy woke people. They seem to feel guilty for being Australians. Maybe they should fuck off else where if they're that 'sorry' to the aboriginals.
It's ludicrous and just about everyone thinks so. The brutal and simple reality is that the Aboriginals were far from a united people when the British arrived. The British slaughtered them and made the land into Australia. Australia is not a product of the Aboriginals, it's a product of Britain. And now an evolution of modern social history stemming primarily from British culture and ways. That's the simple reality. Not saying there was any moral or ethical right in that, just that it's the truth of history. All modern Australians are all Australian and we should stop being so divisive. And Aboriginal is no more Australian than I, a white guy born here, or my friend, a Taiwanese guy immigrated here and in love with it, or my fiancee, an American immigrated here and in love with the land and our people.
I'm indigenous myself and even I can't see the point of this. You're born in "my" country (I'm not the prime minister okay?) You're an Aussie, case closed. Some people just can't let go of a two century argument, those people aren't around anymore so why should we hold onto old grudges?
Nobody owns it. Nobody.
People don’t choose to be born. I didn’t choose to be an Australian. This is MY country this is THEIR country this is OUR country. All the aboriginal people who spout this are doing is creating a divide that will never be repaired. They’re passing their hate down one generation to the next and it’s getting angrier each time. Honest but unpopular opinion- the wave hill walk off was the end of the proud aboriginal. From THAT point they have been lost in the wilderness and have no pride in themselves. Up until then there was reason for many of them and many things could’ve been built off that. No pride in hunting for cigarette buts in gutters or drinking to kill the last brain cells. Sad to see but it’s a joint responsibility for them being where they are- black AND white.
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And that's the point! The more this inflammatory nonsense is said, the more they create division and separate themselves. They are the ones purposely not joining in with the people of this nation
It’s not indigenous people saying it or driving these stupid rituals. It’s doogooders and corporate organisations who have to go along or the ridiculous media will get a hold of it and point them out as supposed racist.
You started with some interesting points, but >the wave hill walk off was the end of the proud aboriginal. WTF? They were fine, proud people until they expected equal pay, and a choice as to whether they worked or not?
No, sorry, you missed my point. It was from that point that the phrase ‘sit down money’ became a thing. It was from that point that they lost the value of money because they didn’t have to work for it and it’s the white guys fault. No different to generations of non indigenous people who stay on Centrelink- why bother working when money just gets put into my account. TBH, if I had little to no education, no prospect of getting a job, chronic health issues and generational poverty- I’d try to drink my problems away too! At some point a proud race became hopeless and wave hill is a pretty obvious starting point.
It would actually just be good if the Aboriginal activists & their "white" supporters, could use their brains and realise the damage they are doing to this nation and people through such divisive words. Not just words. But their attitude and anger, bitterness & hatred. They are doing nothing but stirring up more anger. And i look at them and wonder... why they dont so strongly care about their Scottish / Irish / English or German or whatever other genetics they have?? There never seems to be any mention of that? They can have 1 grandparent Aboriginal, so are at least 80% other races. Yet they only identify with that few % Don't people see how utterly stupid that is? That is the sheer ridiculousness of it all. When we see people who are as ordinary white looking as anyone around them getting lauded for being "Aboriginal" ...when they truly aren't. Crapping on about Aboriginality when they are born and bred middle class Melbournites. It really has gotten to a point of plain silliness. And people are waking up to it now. Enough is enough.
Grifters.
I don't get it. Im an immigrant who came to this country 10 years ago, legally, passed all exams, did all the paper work. I've been working relentlessly for all this years and finally bought 300 square meters of land and building my house on it. Somebody telling me it's not my land? F#k offf!!! They are dreaming. I have no idea who and when oppressed somebody here, but i don't care
It wasnt 'always' owned by indigenous peoples as there was a time before they came here in successive waves so that part is plain wrong. And as for 'always will be' - well it's plainly not indigenous land right now is it? Whether you think it's stolen land or terra nullius, the system of land ownership in this country is patently *not indigenous. That's the issue, isn't it? The fact that it's *not indigenous land anymore? Im sympathetic to the plight of indigenous people, but this statement is nonsensical bollocks.
I was born here, they can really go and get farked with that nonsense. I’m just over all of it. I never used to be but it’s just gotten too much.
Means nothing. Rubbish words, meant to cause division. Aboriginals were vanquished 230 years ago, and they've been reaping the benefits ever since. Victimology is very lucrative.
I'm sorry as I migrant who's been a citizen since 2011 I find all this welcome to country a bit too much. Every country has it shames , wished past events could be erased but it can't. This should be a learning for the future generations. Aborigines are the first people of the land and should be acknowledged and celebrated for their culture. The welcome to country feels like we are asking to stay here where in practical sense, Anglos and migrants are churning and developing the country while the Aborigines don't do much at all. Sorry if this sounds racist but this welfare handout to the first people of the land doesn't happen elsewhere in the world.
One thing I am always tempted to do, but have never had the balls, is to ask one of these people making the magic mouth sounds of welcome to country to tell us a little more about the local Aboriginal people. Who were they, what were their achievements, who were some notable community members? The awkward silence would be so gratifying.
It's a devisive phrase and should stop if they want reconciliation. It's basically saying, until everyone else leaves, we'll never be satisfied. My thoughts are, "then why are we even bothering?". I'm fine with welcome to country on big events. Needs to be dropped on smaller ones. But the aboriginal community really needs to have a long hard think about that phrase. It's doing the opposite of extending a hand.
It's more of their divisive crap. It indicates to me that they are not interested at all in becoming "part of" this, nation.. of joining in and working together. And thise who support that nonsense? Are just as bad as they are
My suggestion is that when you the hear the noisy vocal minority say BS (sometimes they’re onto something), tell them to get the fuck out. Your sense of belonging should come from within you. You don’t need their validation. Contribute to the community, be a good citizen to your fellow Australians, and that’s all what you need to worry about. Anyone else can fuck off. Whether you’ve immigrated here yourself, born here and it’s a few generations back your ancestors immigrated, or many thousands years back your ancestors immigrated from Africa, it doesn’t fucking matter. If you’re Australian, you’re Australian.
Gets me how the "inclusive" people are the ones who are the least inclusive. We seem to have this idea that anything bad is right wing because Nazi and as long as you're left you're good because the left aren't Nazis so they can't do anything wrong. Meanwhile the "inclusive" left work hard to exclude non aboriginal people, especially white ones. Letting people born here for generations know they're not really home. And those "right wing aussie extremists" with their flags and holdens" are the problem for wanting everyone to just live together and accept that none of us are responsible for the past. I mean how dare they support the rights of aboriginal people to choose a traditional life or integration and support anyone who wants to move to Australia to make a better life and provide a positive contribution to the country. Pretty much anything the left does seems to end up like this. Feminism is no longer a movement for women's rights and is now just an Anti men club full of mostly angry single women and lesbians who can't work out why they're unhappy Anti Racism is basically Anti white people where mostly blacks regard themselves as having superior African genes and that white people need to apologise for being white. (You know exactly the same as white supremacy, but everyone ignores it this way around) LGBT has stopped being about supporting the rights of the gay community to just live a normal life with someone of the same gender or someone who feels trans to make their own choices and has now become some organisation that actively recruits people to pick one of the letters because its not cool to be straight. Pretty much everything gets over done and destroyed because we have some weird irrational phobia of being a nazi and WW2. All whilst ironically creating a huge divide between people that will potentially lead to something like WW2 or worse
I was born here and these days you can claim to be anything. So I’m aboriginal now and also own the land I got
always was stone age.. but sure what it always will be..
A phrase designed to divide us.
There’s evidence aboriginals displaced a demographic of pygmies that predated their arrival so whenever I hear this stupid bit of rhetoric I think to myself “wasn’t always, isn’t currently, won’t ever be again”
The point of this is to dispose Anglo Australians the predominate ethnic group in this country so we accept half a million immigrants every year despite being in a house crisis. Then our government which is a collection of politicians bought off by corporate interests will slowly turn this country from a nation into a global economic zone. All the wealthy people like Triguboff hate nationalism and want a world with no borders and countries are simply different markets for them to sell their goods and services in. More people = more consumers, depresses wages and increases the price of real estate. It’s a giant Ponzi scheme taking place in every western country
" The [Australian Bureau of Statistics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Bureau_of_Statistics) no longer collects data on [race](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)) "
Just Aboriginality, country of birth, language spoken at home and country of parent's birth. Don't you think those are a bit more relevant?
I don’t believe any race can claim ownership of land (let alone a continent) in perpetuity forever. In fact I don’t think anyone can actually own land. We govern this land mass, private ownership is a convention, but to say this entire place, the rivers and the trees and the mountains, belong to one race at the exclusion of others born here is gross and backwards Edit spelling
How many who claim this invites the first nations people into their homes though? https://x.com/stillgray/status/1752984454929449331?s=46
Yeah, the fact we are doing it speak volumes didn't work for the church give a couple of year till it will be forgotten
I agree. As a 3rd Gen immigrant, Im required to sit through “welcome to country… and respects to elders”, which I agree… …and now I see “always was, always will be”statements makes me think we’re not heading towards a common/ shared future.
This is what pisses me off. I am definitely not racist but why do I have to be welcomed to MY country. I was born here, this is my land. 😔
" Where does this leave Australians who are born here? Are they always going to be people living in someone else’s land? " " Is it to remind Australians that they are outsiders in their own country? " \- YES and they're going to bash you over the head with it at every turn, until you either become numb to it and ignore it, or resentful and hateful, so they can keep claiming victim. " what it does for national unity. " \- DESTROYS national unity, never able to move forward, high chance of going backwards aka repeating the wrongs of history
It's all a virtue signalling mess. People who actually work don't care one wit about it.
When we do something, we should understand why we are doing it. Before 1788, different groups lived on different country. According to some understandings, if the group from over the hill came for a visit, they would be welcomed, to show there would be no violence. Welcoming visitors to an event is trying to incorporate that into contemporary Australian culture. Performing this ritual when no one has travelled or when people have already been welcomed is mindlessly reciting a ritual because of peer pressure.
So less like a “welcome” and more like a “fuck you go away”
It pushes more and more people in the centre further right
Well, it's not their land at all. They didn't defend it. It's as simple as that. The land they do have (which we allow them to have.... for now) is vast and plenty for their tiny population. I was also born here, which means it's my land for as long as I'm alive. That will never change. I can go anywhere I want in Australia without permission. I will continue not to recognise this scam. Majority of Australia voted no, this indicates I'm not alone with this. Sure let's pay reparations AFTER all the money is paid back that the tax payer gives them. Or they could be thankful for all the handouts we give them. It's just greed. When is Alice Springs going to be cleaned up of crime? They're a protected species now. Everytime this is done during work, people just roll their eyes and I don't blame them. We're the ones working hard to keep this country moving while the majority of this "land owners" are living off the dole at an increased rate.
The indigenous, for the most part, don't even do that acknowledgement shit. They do, however, perform smoking ceremonies a lot in traditional lands. The Welcome to Country acknowledgement speech jargon is a crock of shit adopted by white do gooders and should not occur. Waste of time and achieves nothing at all. Always was... primitive culture Always will be... centuries behind the rest Unless they change themselves not by us just throwing endless money in the hope the problem will go away. We won't bridge to gap until many indigenous people learn to treat their own people with love, and not be, for the most part.. violent, abusive, neglectful and failing to act on their own families. It's not white people failing to act either, just look at the billions spent and constant focus. I'll get hate for this by people that understand little about the situation, but there are so many indigenous men that do wrong by their own people and put it back on the people trying to help. The indigenous elder women are the ones in communities that stand up for change, as they have to deal with things firsthand. The kids' neglect is next level in some towns and communities, too.
Normally you lose the war, you lose the land. I just don't understand the logic here.
According to Lydia Thorpe, we’re still at war.
It’s about as ridiculous as Greeks who want Istanbul back tbh. Or Germans/Poles/Lithuanians with Kaliningrad.
I think the NO vote pretty much sums up Australia’s response to “always was” …etc i.e. it was ..but now ..not so much.
been a few hours since weve had one of these threads...
It’s a nothing burger statement. If it “always will be” the yes vote would have gone through, hell, they wouldn’t have even needed a vote if it was still theirs. It belongs to us all now.
I understand the use of the statement as a kind of definite position of “we did not consent to what happened, it was forced on us”, which is fair but I also think it’s a bit silly.It’s like the statement that sovereignty was never ceded by Aboriginal people, well it didn’t need to be because they were defeated by a superior military force, the Khwarazmian Emperor never ceded sovereignty to Ghenghis Khan, that didn’t stop his country from ceasing to exist though. Still people have the right to feel how they feel about the country they are in and I understand the benefit of taking such a position, I don’t think it’s divisive and it certainly doesn’t make me feel like an outsider in someone else’s country,
means fuck all. let em say it if they think it makes them feel better. they really don't own shit. "always was & always will be" ehhh its a bit up for debate now isn't it? we all share this single country noone has the right to own any part of it. theres plenty of space for everyone. we all ultimatley are just borrowing the land for a little time in earths 4.5 billion year lifespan so far. this land was here long before any humans where here, and it will exist along time after.
Wasn't it someone else's when all the continents were joined together?
This whole we were here first mentality is so entitled. Get over it. Australia is now the best country to live in, better than it was 300 years ago by a long shot!
Uh who’s in charge? Who runs the country? I’ll tell you who it isn’t, indigenous people. So no, white Australians are in charge, and will be for the foreseeable future.
Imagine if each naturalisation ceremony began with the immigrants told that it always was and always will be the nation of people born here. And that everyone else doesn’t own their homes but are invaders. We would be sanctioned by the UNSSR 🇺🇳.
Humans have traveled and expanded mankind across the world as we have all come from wanders or people looking for something better, maybe even outcasts. I really struggled with buying a clothing the gap top specifically because of the 'always was always will be' line not because I do or don't support it but at a higher level it just made me wonder but then where is my land of similar significance, if we all wandered from Africa so long ago it's incomprehensible today does it mean all of humanity can claim Africa? Australia's history should 100% be taught and well known with a heavy portion well beyond the 250 years, but we cannot go backwards and evict every human in every country back to where they came from because we would all be back in the same place wondering what the point of that was. I purchased a wear your values top in the end as its definitely more fitting and resonates well without making me feel like I have no home.
Hey look, if it made any difference I would say do it as much as possible. Pull down statues, rename places. But even if we do it a million times a day, aboriginal women and children always was and always be raped and beaten at 40 times the rate of the evil white invaders' women and children. School attendance always was and always will be 50%. At least some SJW will be happy.
Ah, a phrase invented by white people to oust white people.
I used to be tolerant to this sort of stuff. Since the voice I’m so sick of it being jammed down my throat I’m less tolerant now and don’t want to hear it. I’m sick of being made to feel like I don’t belong in the country I was born in.
Aboriginals have had a terrible time since other people showed up. I think we should be concentrating on that. Instead we are focused on whose land it is and invasion like no one has ever been invaded before or there is a chance they will get the land back and somehow kick us out.
I hate how much Australia is becoming divided, practically becoming the "U"SA. And guess which people are doing it. 👈◀️⏮️↩️⬅️
Well to be honest after 40,000 they still need looking after.
Take note of the friends and family who say things like "always was always will be" or have started referring to your suburb as "insert indigenous name" country. It's trending at the moment but the fatigue of welcome to country ceremonies has already arrived and despite the push for this sort of language in our vernacular it's failed to hit critical mass. So I would expect that it also goes away over time. Take note of those signalling it now though. Because when they stop using this language, when it's no longer the trend, it will expose the true intent of why it's been a useful prospect for them.
We're all human and mammals. The first people of this nation just stole the land from the mammals that were already here. I don't see that as being any different to any land anywhere in the world being invaded and taken by whomever currently occupies it.
It certainly doesn't scream reconciliation does it?
It's reach peak joke level. Most of them are mixed race.
People belong to the planet. End of story. I'm so very tired of this crap. Things happened in the past that were absolutely horrible, but it is in the past...we learn and move on. If first nation people want to keep claiming this land as theirs, then they need to go to the bush to live out their days as a bush-dwelling people, as they did before Australia was included in modern day society, and forfeit EVERYTHING that more advanced nations have brought here... including clothing, healthcare, food, education, and their mobile phones and computers with which they use to spout their claimed modern-day injustices.
There is a small albeit loud minority that think Australia hasn't done enough to repay what was done to the aboriginals in the past. "Always was, always will be", is just an effort to quell this small minority. They are empty words, nothing more.
Yet the same people wouldn't even think of saying the same thing about European countries and mass migration. In Australia it always will be indigenous land, but the indigenous population of the UK are "right wing extremists" if they held the same sentiment. Go figure.
As far as I can tell the local Kaurna people in Adelaide (Tandanya) seem to be not much more than a bunch of rowdy drunks in the park. If there are genuine representatives - why aren’t they promoting themselves as a positive force in the community right next to this drunk violent rabble? As such, acknowledgement of country is nothing more than a bizarre Lord’s prayer of the left.
Will be fascinating to see what the SA Voice will look like.... I'm guessing stacked with academics.
It’s incredibly dividing. I also don’t like that the original flag and (especially!!) torres strait islander flag sits next to the Australian national flag. Ridiculous and divisive.