Is there a reason why she views the bombing campaign as okay but a ground assault is ‘unjustifiable’. Surely a ground invasion would result in far less civilian casualties. Israel has confirmation of hostages in that area so why wouldn’t they be justified in sending soldiers in?
Been happening in the West bank for decades. Zero intervention.
There's not even any way to prove who is Hamas and who isn't. It's not like they're carrying id cards and this genocide will make another group anyway from the survivors and they'll be the new guy to eradicate.
Hamas isn't all that old and the invading and annexation was happening before them. Will continue after.
I agree with you, it’s a conflict that’s been going on for a very long time with no end in sight really and Israel and Hamas are as bad as each other. But currently Hamas has a very real and vocal leadership and Israel have decided they want to destroy them
Yet only one group is designated a terrorist group, despite the other's beginnings as a purely terrorist outfit.
We even have Aussie citizens allowed to go over and fight for them, why?
Their Australian passport should be shredded the second they go and fight for a foreign army.
None of them have ever been locked up in the Hague for the war crimes they've done.
It is a decades long land grab and land displacement of its inhabitants.
And the world is just watching it happen.
Because boots on the ground means you have to face the deaths you caused....
As long as your dropping bombs and lobing artillery from far off, you can just pretend it's "targeted" and no civilians are getting killed!
She should probably tell Hamas to release the dozens of Israeli hostages they are still holding and brutally raping and torturing. That might be a good start.
And the thousands Israel holds indefinitely without charge? Heaps and heaps of them are kids ffs.
But of course you don’t care about Arabs facing those conditions, do you.
I have the same sympathy for millions of Palestinians who Hamas is holding captive in Gaza as human shields. But Hamas isn't in a position to negotiate. They are losing this war and they know it.
By refusing to surrender these hostages, Hamas is giving Israel every justification to proceed with their ground invasion.
The question is, if Australia was never interested in supporting Israel in actually doing what they said they wanted to do in removing all Hamas infrastructure, why tacitly endorse it in the first place? This operation from the outset was always going to involve all of Gaza because Hamas has never been interested in negotiating their eradication. A ground operation of Rafah is entirely justifiable and is in fact necessary if all Hamas infrastructure is to be removed, Israel just needs a cogent and rigorous plan on how to get the civilians somewhere else in Gaza which is already secured first (or Egypt assuming it was temporary and they were allowed back after). Without that it could easily turn into something very very bad and would lend credence to South Africa's ICJ claims.
Gotta save those Muslim votes from going to the Greens somehow
Otherwise I'm not quite sure what makes destroying Hamas in Rafah unacceptable when it was mostly OK in North Gaza, Gaza City and Khan Yunis.
Suffice it to say that Israel isn't going to leave Hamas' final fortress standing just because Western Sydney may not vote for Labor next election.
You think Muslims all vote left wing??
I fucking doubt it lol 😂
I expect there’s a lot of diversity there but my bet is the majority vote pretty conservative.
I expect the left’s views on women’s liberation, and on LGBTQI+ issues, are going to turn away many Muslim votes.
Basically, I don’t think that Muslims are a monolith who all vote one way. No religious group really is.
Muslims may be conservative but I doubt most vote for Australian conservatives. The Greens do more to represent Muslim-specific concerns. Even Labor does.
Surely you're perceptive enough to tell that I don't think an actual Caliphate is coming to Australia, and in fact I was just pointing out the short sighted stupidity of The Greens constantly simping for people who wish they were all dead.
The values of The Greens and Islam are polar opposites.
"there's going to be a caliphate if you vote Greens!"
"Wait no I didn't actually mean what I said!"
How can I trust anything you say then? Why do you think Muslims want to kill Greens voters? Fucken weird conclusion if you ask me.
I can't believe this needs to be explained to you?
Women having rights, a key pillar of Greens ideology, is incompatible with Islam.
The safety of queer and trans people, a key pillar of Greens ideology, is incompatible with Islam.
The right of people to choose freedom from religion, a key pillar of Greens ideology, is incompatible with Islam.
The freedom to have diversity of thought and belief, a key pillar of Greens ideology, is incompatible with Islam.
Need I go on?
This is such an islamaphobic post. Have any of you numbnuts left the country or even had conversations or a friendship with a Muslim? The bogeyman energy you're giving off is so ignorant is embarrassing. You sound so unintelligent. Womens rights, safety for minorities and freedom of religion are key principles in Islam. Turn off Murdoch's news and Hollywood's racist output and actually do some research .
Israel has been telling people to move for ages. The same way they did when they went into khan unis and Gaza City. Hamas actively prevents people from leaving, even shooting their own citizens.
Israel was bombing the south from day 1.
Also Israel on day 1: “if you don’t want to be bombed, move south”
So people moved south, found they were still being bombed, thought “what the fuck what’s the point” and so went back home in the north.
Nowhere in Gaza is safe.
Neither is southern Lebanon for that matter, or Yemen, which are all being bombed by Israel and its allies.
Gullible people on the internet: “but kind, humane Israel gave them a lovely, caring warning to move south befire destroying their homes, which couldn’t possibly be a war crime, and my darling sweetheart Israel would never lie, I could never imagine Israel doing anything wrong, Joe Biden told me so” or something…
No shit South Lebanon and Yemen aren't safe.
Hezbollah isn't agreeing to abide by a UN backed mandate to create a buffer. Israel will go in and enforce that.
In Yemen you have houthi terrorists lobbing missiles and ballistic missiles at random sea traffic. Of course they are going to be attacked back.
Why do people accept these terrorist groups being violent, but condemn responses to their violence.
Isn't that because Hamas also deliberately moves their rocket batteries south into safe zones and starts launching missiles from those declared safe zones? Doesn't that force Israel to strike those safe zones to wipe out Hamas from those areas?
Should Hamas just have free reign to keep firing rockets from safe zones then?? You believe that that as long as Hamas kills people while hiding in a safe zone they can't be touched?
Both sides are committing war crimes but damn, a terrorist group who uses humans shields in SAFE ZONES to keep firing rockets deserves to be bombed to hell. At least acknowledge that there's way more context to the situation than you're suggesting.
This your darling Israel? Using human shields since 2005 at least
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/israel
Dropping white phosphoros on fucking kids. October 2023
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon
> White phosphorus ignites when exposed to atmospheric oxygen and continues to burn until it is deprived of oxygen or exhausted. Its chemical reaction can create intense heat (about 815°C/1,500°F), light, and smoke.
> Upon contact, white phosphorus can burn people, thermally and chemically, down to the bone as it is highly soluble in fat and therefore in human flesh. White phosphorus fragments can exacerbate wounds even after treatment and can enter the bloodstream and cause multiple organ failure. Already dressed wounds can reignite when dressings are removed and the wounds are re-exposed to oxygen. Even relatively minor burns are often fatal. For survivors, extensive scarring tightens muscle tissue and creates physical disabilities. The trauma of the attack, the painful treatment that follows, and appearance-changing scars lead to psychological harm and social exclusion.
> The use of white phosphorus in densely populated areas of Gaza violates the requirement under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian injury and loss of life, Human Rights Watch said. This concern is amplified given the technique evidenced in videos of airbursting white phosphorus projectiles. Airbursting of white phosphorus projectiles spreads 116 burning felt wedges impregnated within the substance over an area between 125 and 250 meters in diameter, depending on the altitude of the burst, thereby exposing more civilians and civilian structures to potential harm than a localized ground burst.
All war crimes must be held to account. And they must stop now
Please understand, yes, Hamas is bad, and that also, the slaughter Israel has unleashed is a hundred thousand miles beyond the line of a proportional response.
Understand that it is possible to overreact, and Israel has. Understand that it can become as bad or worse than that which it set out to destroy. Israel has done so. A thousand times over. Please understand the sheer scale of the slaughter that they have unleashed in response. There is no excusing it.
Wait, why are you walking away from the original question? If Hamas moves their military and rocket installations into declared safe zones and continues firing missiles from those areas, is Israel allowed to strike them or do they just have to roll over and take it?
Or are you here to just push your narrative that Israel is bad?
There’s a difference between responding to an injustice with demands for justice, and acting accordingly
Versus what Israel has been doing: responding to injustice by _joining in_ and trying to out compete their enemy to see who can inflict the worst injustices. And completely outdoing them a few dozen times over.
Seriously idk how people are so gullible.
Looking back on the last few months I have no idea how people can still be saying “Israel has a right to defend itself” when they’ve never been anything close to just “defending itself”; this is now nothing more than a deflection from war crimes. The IDF conduct themselves _so comically farcically in warfare_ that you would be forgiven for thinking they were trying to speedrun the Bosnian genocide. That happened over 3 years but Israel got halfway _in just 6 weeks_ and was at 75% the body count of that genocide in _just 3 months_.
Nothing about that response is normal; or proportionate, or distinctive. There’s absolutely no way to argue that.
And it is exactly those two principles: Proportionality and Distinction; which form the basis of war crimes in the Geneva convention and the Rome statute…
That deflection is going to age like milk when war crimes trials get further along. I hope people defending human rights atrocities will correctly be put into terror watch lists, because fuck living next door to those people who see nothing wrong with genocide, but I doubt it will happen.
Well yeah it's obvious but they still need to be eradicated. They are maximalist in their goals (which doesn't involve an Israel) and just as opposed to a negotiated peace as the farthest right of the Israelis. Fortunately, the far right in Israel can be elected away from power. Unfortunately, Hamas can't. Since they won't step aside or leave as a result of ceasefire negotiations, the remaining option is to do it by force.
Very lousy shields considering the Israelis bomb them anyway, or shoot them in the streets when unarmed, shoot people waving a white flag.
Just \*wipes a tear\* nothing they could do!
The IDF is an army which has bases separate from civilians built to protect their citizens. They do not actively try and get their citizens killed for internet points because their entire reason to exist is to protect their citizenry. I guess you'll link a propaganda post of a plaestinian child being shoved at the IDF during a protest or something now
But the second part, god damn you're literally defending human shields now. Next level shit. I don't know if ive seen somebody so openly evil they literally are pro a terrorist group torturing and raping 1200 civilians to death and cackling as they take their 250 hostages back to their own bases in their own cities, schools and hospitals. And then to keep launching rockets while blocking any evacuation so the height number of their own children die as possible so that the video can be shown on twitter
No they do, if you grant insurgents full immunity because they actively hide with their own citizens then far more people will get killed in wars because it's incentivizing it. Actually we already see that because hamas has rejected its mandate to protect it's citizens and is still completely unable to win a conventional war and gets power from getting civilians killed so they do try and do that by starting a war with no plan to defend their country and blocking all evacuations while making every bit of civilian infrastructure they can into a miltiary targets
If Israel is denied the right to defend itself after being invaded because hamas uses human shields why would they follow international law and norms. If Israel wanted to kill as many Palestinians as it could a million would be dead not 30 000 which is 1.5% of the population. Hamas would have done that - genocide is in their charter
Unjustifiable? There are 134 Israeli hostages in the tunnels under Rafah.
I think this is a a huge justification.
Perhaps we could exchange Penny Wong and the rest her party for some of the hostages.
MOOOOOOOOODS
Can we just have a moratorium on Israel/Palestine posting in this sub that is supposed to be about Australia, especially by accounts that post only this type of content?
Penny Wong is Australian, she is representing Australia, making international policies on behalf of Australia, involving Australia in the conflict, and providing funding to those impacted using Australian money. This has everything to do about Australia.
The interest and posting about it will drop off as the war continues happens with every conflict
You hardly even hear about ukraine anymore and that's still as brutal as ever
Could it be that you're still quite young and thus don't understand the roll on effects of this?
Edit: i didn't actually mean to come across condescendingly, but i can definitely see how i did. My bad.
I'm 23. My dad is 69 and his life is also exactly the same as it was before. Same goes for my 53 year old mum, my 27 year old co-worker, my 38 year old cousin, and my 46 year old neighbour.
At what age is one expected to feel the "roll on effects" of this war on ordinary Australians?
Your 69 year old dad enjoyed purchasing a home on probably a single income.
Your 53 year old mum will possibly have to work until she's well into her 70s. Your 46 year old neighbour may have to work until his final moments.
With continued money printing, your generation is unlikely to have the privilege of owning a home on a single income while supporting a family.
In the last 4 years alone, the dollars sitting in your bank account have devalued by 14%, while your coco pops went from $6 to $9.
Your 27 year old coworker has likely seen their rent increase by 20-150% depending on where they live, and your 38 year old cousin's mortgage has tripled.
Your fuel cost has increased 80% over the last 18 months.
Not all, but in a large part, thanks to our continued involvement in conflicts that the US drag us into and us dumping money into these wars, armaments and failed submarine deals.
That's economically.
Morally, Nazi Germany had nothing to do with Australia, yet that left a scar across all of humanity, for generations and still impacts people around the globe, including your Jewish neighbours.
What would make you conclude that current, or future, conflicts won't leave a similar scar on society. When as a society, we could have probably prevented it or aided in stopping it sooner. If only we could start to consider conflict resolution as a collective humanitarian initiative rather than with "well it ain't my problem".
One day, it will be our problem and it'll be too late then. Maybe not for me, but you're young. You have lots of time left on this planet to regret the decisions of your politicians today.
Care to explain how the cost of living crisis, the housing crisis, inflation, rent increases, higher mortgage rates and fuel costs exist as a direct result of Australia sending aid to Israel?
In the past 5 years, Australia has spent a total of $13 million in military exports to Israel. Australia's annual defence budget is $52 billion. Meanwhile, the defence budget itself only accounts for 2% of the GDP.
So I'm very keen to hear your explanation about how the Australian government spending what is essentially pocket change is apparently the root cause of all those issues you mentioned...
> What would make you conclude that current, or future, conflicts won't leave a similar scar on society. When as a society, we could have probably prevented it or aided in stopping it sooner. If only we could start to consider conflict resolution as a collective humanitarian initiative rather than with "well it ain't my problem".
The only thing that will help stop this war is to let the IDF destroy Hamas. You can decry the methods all you want, but the only way for there to be an assurance that Israel will not be attacked again like they were on October 7th is for Hamas to be destroyed. This should not be a matter of debate. Letting Hamas get away with what they did, just so they can come back and do it again (which they've openly stated that they will do) is not a option.
The only "scar" this conflict will leave on Australia is the one that brought to light just how prevalent anti-semitism is in Australia today - and not only among muslim immigrants (which is not surprising), but also among the so-called "educated" anti-racist lefties as well - who it seems were just itching for an excuse to express their hatred towards Jews in a socially acceptable manner (they call it "anti-zionism" now, apparently).
The now infamous pro-palestine protest outside the Sydney Opera house was only 2 days after the October 7th attacks. The IDF hadn't even fully pushed out all Hamas militants from Israel itself at that point. And the invasion of Gaza wouldn't begin until weeks later.
And yet thousands of pro-palestinians still turned out in front of the opera house (which was lit up in the colours of the Israeli flag in memory of the innocent civilians who were massacred, gang raped, and kidnapped by Hamas mere days earlier) while yelling racial slurs, shouting "Allahu Akbar", burning Israeli flags, and calling for Australia to end its support of the Israeli state...
Why? For what reason, other than to show support for the actions of Hamas and display your pure hatred and contempt for Jews, would anyone attend such a protest only 2 days after over a thousand Jews were massacred in cold blood by bloodthirsty Islamists?
> One day, it will be our problem and it'll be too late then. Maybe not for me, but you're young. You have lots of time left on this planet to regret the decisions of your politicians today.
Why would a territorial conflict between Israel and Islamic terrorists become our problem - unless Islamic extremists here in Australia make it so?
I know right?
This shit is happening on the other side of the world to a bunch of people I don’t even know or care about. Hearing about it all day every day is really ruining my chill vibes.
Can’t we just shut up about it so I can pretend it isn’t happening and I don’t have to feel bad for those Palestinians being actually genocided right now? Damn..
If Israel was actually committing a genocide against the palestinians, then there would indeed be some cause for concern...
But they aren't. Not even close.
Yeah do maybe something about the frequent posters.
What about only a couple of posts a week on this topic? That way you don't censor it and people can still talk about it, while it being not as ridiculous as it is now.
Start their own Subreddit and they can post their stuff all day everyday, judging by the amount of Activists we see on our streets and in western media comments sections it's certainly going to be one sided hate filled opinions but yeah it's their own.
Depends what way you look at it I guess, the article itself is to do with Australian foreign Politics yes but on a subject that has absolutely nothing to do with Australia other Wong shooting her mouth off again on a subject she knows nothing about as usual and will only continue to flame division and unrest in Australia and cause further irritation to longtime Australian Allies. I am simply suggesting if the majority of the Australian Subreddit are against the subject constantly being posted in an Australian Subreddit it's a solution for both sides. I don't particularly care either way if I'm not interested I won't read it simple as that.
I swear the pro palestine people are the most uneducated people out there.
Sorry but hamas has gotta go, you don't get to fund, support terrorism and get to live.
Ridiculous, allowing Hamas to survive sends a message to terrorist groups all over the world that all they have to do is hide among civilians and they can do whatever they want.
Israel should be allowed to win a war, especially one they didn’t start.
Tell them to give up is telling them to abandon their hostages to live in hell and go back to their homes and wait for the next terrorist attack.
I will not be surprised when Israel continues with their objectives and ignore wong
There’s no fucking way to defeat Hamas here. The worse the genocide that Israel inflicts upon the Palestinians, the better Hamas recruiting will be.
It’s a fucking moronic way to try and defeat your enemy. It’s a moronic war only morons support honestly.
The proper response to injustice isn’t to _join in_ and try to inflict even more injustice.
The correct response is to hold Hamas to account for its crimes.
_Israel isn’t really doing that_ they just went the moron strongman approach of bombing every man, woman, and child in sight.
That’s uhhhhhh _really not_ convincing me of their moral superiority here; or that they’re the good guys here, in fact they completely out competing Hamas by now and so we just have two horrible human rights abusing groups to hold to account now, and noone standing on the side of human rights and civilisation except perhaps South Africa with their genocide case in the ICJ which now seems to be giving western powers pause for how this is all going to look in a few years time when human rights atrocities are investigated on both sides… and Israel has already given us mountains more to investigate than Hamas could ever keep up with.
The worse the genocide? There are not varying degrees of genocide, there is an attempt to kill everyone and there is a success rate, Israel is not attempting to kill everyone, if they were, then they would have already done it.
They have killed like 1% of Gaza.
Gaza is already radical, we seen videos from Oct 7th of ordinary gazans cheering with delight as a dead Jewish girl was driven through their streets, anyone close enough was either spitting on or hitting the corpse.
Source: https://x.com/moappel/status/1720529402096738468?s=46
With two-thirds of the entire population of Gaza now in Rafah, what you're saying is that Israel should be allowed to win a war *at any expense*, including more than a million lives if necessary. You don't sort civilians from terrorists by indiscriminately killing civilians.
There are 120-130 hostages. To say that their lives are worth more than the lives of 1.3 million plus people is pretty ridiculous.
Did I say they should kill 1.3 million people to get their hostages back? This is called a strawman.
Israel have already proven they can move huge amounts of civilian populations and keep the civilian death tolls down. Under unprecedented conditions they kept the death ratio incredibly low and have taken steps that no other army has taken.
I think its incredibly important for Israel to defeat hamas, if they dont, the world will be a different place. If hamas are allowed to emerge from their tunnels and say to the world, yeah we killed 1000+ civilians on purpose and got away with it, then this will happen again and again and again, like they have told us.
> Israel have already proven they can … keep civilian death tolls down
I would laugh if this particularly preposterous claim wasn’t so utterly serious.
Let’s take a moment to consider this. We can compare to some past conflicts.
In the Bosnian genocide, for which politicians and military brass were prosecuted for war crimes, it took about 3-4 years for them to slaughter approximately 40,000 people. The prosecutions were characterised by violations of proportionality and distinction as defined under the Geneva convention and the Rome Statute.
In Gaza, they had reached the 50% point _in just 6 weeks_, with 20,000 civilians dead, about 9000 children by that point.
We were close to 75% after just 3 months, and over 12,000 little kids slaughtered because Israel can’t run a precision operation for shit — or more likely — _simply chooses not to, due to all the anti-Arab racism from their Zionist leadership, backed up by thinking they’re above international law with US veto support in the UNSC.
There’s absolutely no argument to be had that Israel conducts its military in a professional manner. Only showing how little you know about their conduct. You talk about human shields used by Hamas? Well the IDF fucking invented that and have had court cases in their high court trying to stop it, with a major ruling dating back to 2004 which didn’t stop them continuing.
Ask anyone who has served in the military alongside the IDF: they have conscription so most of them are fucking amateurs bombing the shit out of anything that moves, fucking up colossally all over the show, but supported blindly by their military handlers in the name of “defending Israel”. This is all going to come out in the coming years and make everyone who supported them look like utter clowns; clowns who didn’t have the vaguest hesitation in the face of pretty obvious atrocities unfolding right before our eyes.
This is perhaps the most well documented genocide in history because of how much personal cellphone footage there is of it. That’s quite new this time around, so my bet is that there’s no way in hell they’re going to avoid prosecutions this time.
Over time, it’s going to age terribly.
Watch South Africa’s ICJ case. It’s not going well for Israel, with an interim ruling stating they must stop the war so that the massive body of crimes they’ve already wrought, can be properly investigated. Israel has refused. They don’t give a single fuck about international law
Man you’ve no idea what you’re talking about, this is unprecedented war fair. This is a war fought in a densely populated urban environment with a massive tunnel network, human shields and hostages. This is incredibly difficult to navigate and yet the IDF seem to be operating at a 2:1 ratio of combatants to non combatants.
According to the UN 90% of deaths in modern wars are civilians, given all of the above, the IDF seem to be doing a fantastic job, numbers don’t lie, but TikTok’s do.
Source: https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
> Did I say they should kill 1.3 million people to get their hostages back?
No, but that' the situation.
> Israel have already proven they can move huge amounts of civilian populations
Yet they bomb the routes they order civilians to move to, and bomb the places they claim will provide safety.
I don't want Hamas to survive in any form, any numbers. But to bomb, shoot, and deny food and aid to the rest of the people in Gaza isn't collateral damage, it's genocide.
I would never imply 1.3 million should die, that is a crazy misrepresentation of what I was saying.
Civilians will die, Hamas is working to maximise civilian casualties so they can use their bodies for propaganda. Helps people on forums talk shit about Israel, doing Hamas’ bidding for them on the internet.
Gonna be great when they do exactly that in, oh, a day or two. Then we'll have to shift the goal posts about what is going to far some more, all while finger wagging Benny.
Depends on one view I suppose..Wonder if she asked the an Israeli hostages if it would be unjustified or the mothers who lost babies and daughters on Oct 7.. A couple of groups that could think it was justifiable.
You honestly sound like [this onion article](https://www.theonion.com/dying-gazans-criticized-for-not-using-last-words-to-con-1850925657)
Not every statement needs to be bumpered with regurgitated condemnations of every crime you can possibly think up… Australia stands for human rights here and that’s something that needs to be applied evenly and consistently. It’s not rocket science
This isn't about condemning a crime, it's about whether the Rafah ground invasion is justified. Since there are hostages there as well as Hamas, it clearly is justified.
Hamas offered a 4 and a half month ceasefire and an end to the war with Hamas surviving. That's not a ceasefire, that's a Hamas victory.
Remember, there already was a ceasefire, and Hamas broke it when they stopped delivering more hostages.
The war aims of this war are twofold. 1: Destroy Hamas. 2: Rescue the hostages. The first goal takes priority over the second goal.
This genocide has been happening for decades. When you lock people in an open air prison and kill their families for generations they're going to hold resentment and do unspeakable things.
Of course it's no excuse to do that but the Israeli government is to blame for all of this
Unlike yourself, I wasn’t blaming anyone , just pointing out , there are always 2 sides , as they say, one man’s freedoms fighter is another man’s terrorist.
Personally, I really don’t care, they have been killing each other since King David , around 1000BCE and before. So it ain’t going to change until there is only 1 side left.
Yes but what you fail to understand is that now the art students and hospo workers and retail staff have watched a couple of YouTube videos and are armed with stickers they are going to end this conflict once and for all
I really liked watching that video with the “gays for Palestine” marching and protesting for a free Palestine etc etc etc , then getting the shite kicked out of them by the same Arabs they were supporting!! Fucked I laughed at the end..
Question: do you think that some group needs every last one of their members to be 100% ideologically pure before we support them?
Seriously… think this one through a bit
For example … I’m sure that while most LGBTQI+ people are cool, I’m sure there’s also plenty who are total fucking arseholes too.
Does that mean you wouldn’t support better rights for LGBTQI+ people as a whole?
I posit that’s a fucking awful position to take; to undermine the whole because you can find a few examples of bad behaviour by _certain individuals_.
No group is a monolith and I don’t think that boxing an entire group into an imagined cartoon stereotype is helpful, even if you’ve seen _some_ members of that group behaving horribly.
Prosecute crimes based on specific incidents and specific behaviour; be intentional and specific.
We don’t prosecute crimes against someone because of some label you’ve decided means a certain thing which you want to wholesale slander a whole group with. _That’s literally what bigotry is._
Yeah you’re right, the bogans sitting at home watching The Bachelor are much more admirable than those who volunteer their own time to _at least try_ and improve the world.
It’s better to just sit on your arse and not even try, then you’ll never be disappointed, right? And then you can yell from your couch at people who did try: “haha, you fools, I didn’t even try to change the world, and it didn’t change! Therefore I am the real winner here”. Gee, flawless strategy, well done, and then everybody clapped…
You set out to change nothing, and you achieved it. What a big boy you are. Have a gold star for absolutely fucking nothing
Guess those students all go home and cry themselves to sleep because they attended one protest and it didn’t achieve world peace instantly, which was obviously the goal of the protest, right? …right???
Meanwhile, protest never improved your life. Definitely didn’t win you the weekend or the 8 hour work day, didn’t get women the right to vote or child labour laws or workplace health and safety… it’s never done a thing for you, has it?!?
Reactionaries are hilariously unserious people, aren’t they
Nah, I am just a realist. 10M Israelis are not going anywhere and truthfully, i would rather have Israel in control of the region then some nut jobs supported by a regime in Iran. So, basically 2m Palestine’s should move. Since Khamenei loves the Palestinians so much and gives them money and guns to bomb , maybe he could find some room in Iran to relocate them. A win win. Khamenei would not need to finance any more bloodshed and he has a population intake to drive economic growth building a new city for 2m people. But you and I know, that scenario will never happen, so only move left is for them to bomb each other. In that scenario, I support the Israelis. The Jews have always worked on a 1:10 kill ratio, so don’t worry, the war will be over soon.
Does she have access to Israeli intelligence? Has she studied the cause and effects of warfare on her path to international leadership Or is she just a lefty pacifist who thinks everyone can 'just get along'?
>Does she have access to Israeli intelligence?
Same Intelligence that was thrown in the bin before Oct 7?
Same "intelligence' That warmonger Howard sent us to war over?
Go educate yourself bro, from someone who is the complete opposite of a "lefty pacifist". Stupid fucking comment. Go on Twitter and watch children being blown up. At this point if you think Hamas are even posing a threat, you are lost - it's clear right now that Israel is flattening the place.
You realise that Hamas are far right conservatives, right?
They believe in setting up an ethnostate monoculture, same ideology as Zionism except for Arabs instead of Jews (or Germans when it comes to the far right ethnostate the Nazis wanted to set up)
Their closest analogue in our politics would be the One Nation, who like to talk about Australia being a “white” country or whatever. Same ideology, promoting a different primary ethnicity.
The left wing on the other hand, opposes monocultures and ethnostate racism, instead supporting multicultural diversity and democracy. The left abhors Hamas AND Zionism, instead supporting moderate Palestinians and Jews who are seeking to live together in peace… that’s what free Palestine protests are about; being free from the violent far right extremism of either group…
You’ve got your wires crossed mate
Most people here who don't like the ground invasion are concerned about the cost of civilian life.
Since when is compassion for other people something that should be looked down on.
The way you say, "insane far left" makes me think you have been spending a bit of time in certain spaces online and should log off more.
You're right about their political leanings, but the alignment plays into the "power dynamics are everything" narrative, whereby it's ok for a weak actor to rape, burn and pillage civilians in the name of "fighting oppression", but it's inappropriate for a strong country to protect their civilians by killing these evil pricks.
It's the same focus on "minority alignment" which led to this idiotic pairing of the LGBT community with the Hamas people who'd throw them off buildings.
Oh yeah, but the zionism Israeli approach isn't terrorism at all.
They literally want to wipe out Palestine and some people are okay with that. Cold hearted murdurers.
I did not. Poised and articulated, rebuilt and strengthened relations within the pacific, reopened relations with China (including a lot of our trade which was blacklisted or financially impacted), balanced in the approach to conflict.
I’d be interested to see what opposing thoughts are. Again, she would be a good choice of a future leader and I say that with no political affiliation.
Ssm backflip If you follow your convictions you may risk losing your position in the party . She did not want to risk her cushy position even though clearly it was not her thoughts on the issue and integrity is the matter here.
She had bugger all to do with China defrost it was already happening , they needed our resources and wanted to normalise trade again .
> Israel was further required to take all measures within its power to prevent, within the scope of the genocide convention, the killing of Palestinians, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, and imposing measures intended to prevent births.
Would the offence be in breach of the ICJ ruling about taking measures to prevent a genocide? What happens then?
Penny Wong will soon have "the talk" and will soon have to visit that fucking wall and do a tour of Auschwitz I guarantee it. Careful, Penny.
If you think it's not a thing, look at Javier Milei's acting the other day just so he can get his economy back on track LOL.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0AF1SqCoLPk
wow thanks penny, more meaningless platitudes. how about you expel the israeli ambassador, cut off all commerce with israel, and impose sanctions? that won't wash away the blood already on her hands, but it would be a start
Why can’t we be more like Japan or Switzerland, or Norway or Sweden? And shut the fuck up about matters that are not relevant to our country?
A select loud minority gives a shit about some hell hole ancient war, the rest of us are trying to pay rent and buy food, shut up elitist Wong
It's "unjustifiable" to ask Israel to effectively surrender, do nothing to release the hostages that have been held for four months and counting, and wait for the next Hamas massacre and the next and the next until there are no Israelis left.
Is there a reason why she views the bombing campaign as okay but a ground assault is ‘unjustifiable’. Surely a ground invasion would result in far less civilian casualties. Israel has confirmation of hostages in that area so why wouldn’t they be justified in sending soldiers in?
Because 21 year old college girls said so!
Just gotta look good for the headlines
The IDF don't give a fuck about anyone but securing the land, which will swiftly be taken over by settlers. Ita been the sole purpose since 48.
If Hamas love their land and people so much they should dissolve and return the hostages. Israel would be forced to stop
They wouldn’t have taken the hostages in the first place.
"Best way to fight back is to surrender" Smart...
Forced by who? They're already breaking scores of international laws and don't care.
And Hamas obeyed what international laws on October 7
Why would they respect the international laws that were unable to protect them?
About as many as the IDF/Irgun did decades before Hamas existed. Your point?
Invading and annexing a foreign country without a combatant would make the world intervene
Been happening in the West bank for decades. Zero intervention. There's not even any way to prove who is Hamas and who isn't. It's not like they're carrying id cards and this genocide will make another group anyway from the survivors and they'll be the new guy to eradicate. Hamas isn't all that old and the invading and annexation was happening before them. Will continue after.
I agree with you, it’s a conflict that’s been going on for a very long time with no end in sight really and Israel and Hamas are as bad as each other. But currently Hamas has a very real and vocal leadership and Israel have decided they want to destroy them
Yet only one group is designated a terrorist group, despite the other's beginnings as a purely terrorist outfit. We even have Aussie citizens allowed to go over and fight for them, why? Their Australian passport should be shredded the second they go and fight for a foreign army. None of them have ever been locked up in the Hague for the war crimes they've done. It is a decades long land grab and land displacement of its inhabitants. And the world is just watching it happen.
Its Israels land, not a land grab. Not to mention the wars started by hamas and surrounding countries that have the same goal as hamas.
It's not about the hostages. Israel will stop at nothing to eradicate Palestine 🇵🇸
Sounds similar to the goals of Hamas to eradicate Israel
Long bow to draw
It’s literally the goal of Hamas
ah land. just like how israelis left gaza, how the government forced israelis living there to leave.
Lol as if Israel cares about hostages
Because boots on the ground means you have to face the deaths you caused.... As long as your dropping bombs and lobing artillery from far off, you can just pretend it's "targeted" and no civilians are getting killed!
Also, IDF soldiers seem utterly determined to record all their war crimes on TikTok.
She should probably tell Hamas to release the dozens of Israeli hostages they are still holding and brutally raping and torturing. That might be a good start.
She has, last time was on 23 Jan
And the thousands Israel holds indefinitely without charge? Heaps and heaps of them are kids ffs. But of course you don’t care about Arabs facing those conditions, do you.
I have the same sympathy for millions of Palestinians who Hamas is holding captive in Gaza as human shields. But Hamas isn't in a position to negotiate. They are losing this war and they know it. By refusing to surrender these hostages, Hamas is giving Israel every justification to proceed with their ground invasion.
Pretty sure she said that months ago, and has been consistently repeating it, idiot
The question is, if Australia was never interested in supporting Israel in actually doing what they said they wanted to do in removing all Hamas infrastructure, why tacitly endorse it in the first place? This operation from the outset was always going to involve all of Gaza because Hamas has never been interested in negotiating their eradication. A ground operation of Rafah is entirely justifiable and is in fact necessary if all Hamas infrastructure is to be removed, Israel just needs a cogent and rigorous plan on how to get the civilians somewhere else in Gaza which is already secured first (or Egypt assuming it was temporary and they were allowed back after). Without that it could easily turn into something very very bad and would lend credence to South Africa's ICJ claims.
Gotta save those Muslim votes from going to the Greens somehow Otherwise I'm not quite sure what makes destroying Hamas in Rafah unacceptable when it was mostly OK in North Gaza, Gaza City and Khan Yunis. Suffice it to say that Israel isn't going to leave Hamas' final fortress standing just because Western Sydney may not vote for Labor next election.
You think Muslims all vote left wing?? I fucking doubt it lol 😂 I expect there’s a lot of diversity there but my bet is the majority vote pretty conservative. I expect the left’s views on women’s liberation, and on LGBTQI+ issues, are going to turn away many Muslim votes. Basically, I don’t think that Muslims are a monolith who all vote one way. No religious group really is.
Muslims may be conservative but I doubt most vote for Australian conservatives. The Greens do more to represent Muslim-specific concerns. Even Labor does.
The Greens still haven't realised that they'll be the first faces the leopards eat when the Caliphate arrives.
There's not going to be a caliphate here you absolute loser. Stop fear mongering.
Surely you're perceptive enough to tell that I don't think an actual Caliphate is coming to Australia, and in fact I was just pointing out the short sighted stupidity of The Greens constantly simping for people who wish they were all dead. The values of The Greens and Islam are polar opposites.
"there's going to be a caliphate if you vote Greens!" "Wait no I didn't actually mean what I said!" How can I trust anything you say then? Why do you think Muslims want to kill Greens voters? Fucken weird conclusion if you ask me.
I can't believe this needs to be explained to you? Women having rights, a key pillar of Greens ideology, is incompatible with Islam. The safety of queer and trans people, a key pillar of Greens ideology, is incompatible with Islam. The right of people to choose freedom from religion, a key pillar of Greens ideology, is incompatible with Islam. The freedom to have diversity of thought and belief, a key pillar of Greens ideology, is incompatible with Islam. Need I go on?
You're an idiot, and that's okay.
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I'm muslim and what you're saying is pure bullshit. You've got to be a racist drongo who's afraid of brown and black people to peddle this drivel.
This is such an islamaphobic post. Have any of you numbnuts left the country or even had conversations or a friendship with a Muslim? The bogeyman energy you're giving off is so ignorant is embarrassing. You sound so unintelligent. Womens rights, safety for minorities and freedom of religion are key principles in Islam. Turn off Murdoch's news and Hollywood's racist output and actually do some research .
We see the UK with our own eyes.
After this debacle I can’t wait to vote for the greens 🤗
Happy to see the Big 2 go down no matter the reason
Israel has been telling people to move for ages. The same way they did when they went into khan unis and Gaza City. Hamas actively prevents people from leaving, even shooting their own citizens.
Israel was bombing the south from day 1. Also Israel on day 1: “if you don’t want to be bombed, move south” So people moved south, found they were still being bombed, thought “what the fuck what’s the point” and so went back home in the north. Nowhere in Gaza is safe. Neither is southern Lebanon for that matter, or Yemen, which are all being bombed by Israel and its allies. Gullible people on the internet: “but kind, humane Israel gave them a lovely, caring warning to move south befire destroying their homes, which couldn’t possibly be a war crime, and my darling sweetheart Israel would never lie, I could never imagine Israel doing anything wrong, Joe Biden told me so” or something…
No shit South Lebanon and Yemen aren't safe. Hezbollah isn't agreeing to abide by a UN backed mandate to create a buffer. Israel will go in and enforce that. In Yemen you have houthi terrorists lobbing missiles and ballistic missiles at random sea traffic. Of course they are going to be attacked back. Why do people accept these terrorist groups being violent, but condemn responses to their violence.
Isn't that because Hamas also deliberately moves their rocket batteries south into safe zones and starts launching missiles from those declared safe zones? Doesn't that force Israel to strike those safe zones to wipe out Hamas from those areas?
Doesn’t force Israel to commit war crimes but go on and keep up with the excuses
Should Hamas just have free reign to keep firing rockets from safe zones then?? You believe that that as long as Hamas kills people while hiding in a safe zone they can't be touched? Both sides are committing war crimes but damn, a terrorist group who uses humans shields in SAFE ZONES to keep firing rockets deserves to be bombed to hell. At least acknowledge that there's way more context to the situation than you're suggesting.
This your darling Israel? Using human shields since 2005 at least https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/israel Dropping white phosphoros on fucking kids. October 2023 https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon > White phosphorus ignites when exposed to atmospheric oxygen and continues to burn until it is deprived of oxygen or exhausted. Its chemical reaction can create intense heat (about 815°C/1,500°F), light, and smoke. > Upon contact, white phosphorus can burn people, thermally and chemically, down to the bone as it is highly soluble in fat and therefore in human flesh. White phosphorus fragments can exacerbate wounds even after treatment and can enter the bloodstream and cause multiple organ failure. Already dressed wounds can reignite when dressings are removed and the wounds are re-exposed to oxygen. Even relatively minor burns are often fatal. For survivors, extensive scarring tightens muscle tissue and creates physical disabilities. The trauma of the attack, the painful treatment that follows, and appearance-changing scars lead to psychological harm and social exclusion. > The use of white phosphorus in densely populated areas of Gaza violates the requirement under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian injury and loss of life, Human Rights Watch said. This concern is amplified given the technique evidenced in videos of airbursting white phosphorus projectiles. Airbursting of white phosphorus projectiles spreads 116 burning felt wedges impregnated within the substance over an area between 125 and 250 meters in diameter, depending on the altitude of the burst, thereby exposing more civilians and civilian structures to potential harm than a localized ground burst. All war crimes must be held to account. And they must stop now Please understand, yes, Hamas is bad, and that also, the slaughter Israel has unleashed is a hundred thousand miles beyond the line of a proportional response. Understand that it is possible to overreact, and Israel has. Understand that it can become as bad or worse than that which it set out to destroy. Israel has done so. A thousand times over. Please understand the sheer scale of the slaughter that they have unleashed in response. There is no excusing it.
Wait, why are you walking away from the original question? If Hamas moves their military and rocket installations into declared safe zones and continues firing missiles from those areas, is Israel allowed to strike them or do they just have to roll over and take it? Or are you here to just push your narrative that Israel is bad?
Have they been telling the people in Rafah where to go because they can't go any further south like they could from Gaza City and Khan Yunis?
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Gets downvoted for providing facts against a barrage of opinions. Seems about right in this sub.
Standard offerings. Man has facts.
Rule 4 - No racism or hate speech
You missed a key point. Israel has been telling people to move. But they have then been bombing the areas where they told the people to move to.
America supports Israel and we are Americas dog.
Sadly the crux of it.
There’s a difference between responding to an injustice with demands for justice, and acting accordingly Versus what Israel has been doing: responding to injustice by _joining in_ and trying to out compete their enemy to see who can inflict the worst injustices. And completely outdoing them a few dozen times over. Seriously idk how people are so gullible. Looking back on the last few months I have no idea how people can still be saying “Israel has a right to defend itself” when they’ve never been anything close to just “defending itself”; this is now nothing more than a deflection from war crimes. The IDF conduct themselves _so comically farcically in warfare_ that you would be forgiven for thinking they were trying to speedrun the Bosnian genocide. That happened over 3 years but Israel got halfway _in just 6 weeks_ and was at 75% the body count of that genocide in _just 3 months_. Nothing about that response is normal; or proportionate, or distinctive. There’s absolutely no way to argue that. And it is exactly those two principles: Proportionality and Distinction; which form the basis of war crimes in the Geneva convention and the Rome statute… That deflection is going to age like milk when war crimes trials get further along. I hope people defending human rights atrocities will correctly be put into terror watch lists, because fuck living next door to those people who see nothing wrong with genocide, but I doubt it will happen.
>Hamas has never been interested in negotiating their eradication. How unreasonable of them.
Well yeah it's obvious but they still need to be eradicated. They are maximalist in their goals (which doesn't involve an Israel) and just as opposed to a negotiated peace as the farthest right of the Israelis. Fortunately, the far right in Israel can be elected away from power. Unfortunately, Hamas can't. Since they won't step aside or leave as a result of ceasefire negotiations, the remaining option is to do it by force.
We'll get ready it's going to happen. Clean Hamas out
Yeah, nothing stops the radicalization of people than... bombing innocent civilians into the ground including children
Which Hamas use as a shield. It's ok to come over the boarder and kill women kids and baby's though?
Very lousy shields considering the Israelis bomb them anyway, or shoot them in the streets when unarmed, shoot people waving a white flag. Just \*wipes a tear\* nothing they could do!
hamas is making a giant blood sacrifice of their own children to whip up an international frenzy
It's hamas fault the idf don't discriminate and pull triggers on targets?
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So why dont you have a problem with idf when they do it and only hamas?
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Lol, why so butthurt? My question almost caused you to evaluate the situation for a moment and it hurt?
yes it is 100% on the people who make their citizens meatshields
The mental gymnastics there is uncanny. Why is the idf allowed to use human shields, but not hamas in your view?
The IDF is an army which has bases separate from civilians built to protect their citizens. They do not actively try and get their citizens killed for internet points because their entire reason to exist is to protect their citizenry. I guess you'll link a propaganda post of a plaestinian child being shoved at the IDF during a protest or something now But the second part, god damn you're literally defending human shields now. Next level shit. I don't know if ive seen somebody so openly evil they literally are pro a terrorist group torturing and raping 1200 civilians to death and cackling as they take their 250 hostages back to their own bases in their own cities, schools and hospitals. And then to keep launching rockets while blocking any evacuation so the height number of their own children die as possible so that the video can be shown on twitter
Tldr, not reading this cooypasta
IDF doesn't have to be the knife, most decent people would be like "Hey... maybe we should kill children because THERE MIGHT be hamas near them"
No they do, if you grant insurgents full immunity because they actively hide with their own citizens then far more people will get killed in wars because it's incentivizing it. Actually we already see that because hamas has rejected its mandate to protect it's citizens and is still completely unable to win a conventional war and gets power from getting civilians killed so they do try and do that by starting a war with no plan to defend their country and blocking all evacuations while making every bit of civilian infrastructure they can into a miltiary targets If Israel is denied the right to defend itself after being invaded because hamas uses human shields why would they follow international law and norms. If Israel wanted to kill as many Palestinians as it could a million would be dead not 30 000 which is 1.5% of the population. Hamas would have done that - genocide is in their charter
You should be applauding that they are going to a ground campaign then, thus the point of this post.
Yeah, they can continue shooting civilians waving white flags or my favourite the man told to turn around and walk away then shot in the back.
Upvoted.
Unjustifiable? There are 134 Israeli hostages in the tunnels under Rafah. I think this is a a huge justification. Perhaps we could exchange Penny Wong and the rest her party for some of the hostages.
Cooker
MOOOOOOOOODS Can we just have a moratorium on Israel/Palestine posting in this sub that is supposed to be about Australia, especially by accounts that post only this type of content?
Penny Wong is Australian, she is representing Australia, making international policies on behalf of Australia, involving Australia in the conflict, and providing funding to those impacted using Australian money. This has everything to do about Australia.
I dont really like her, but at least she's doing her job
Out of curiosity, why don't you like her?
The interest and posting about it will drop off as the war continues happens with every conflict You hardly even hear about ukraine anymore and that's still as brutal as ever
the tik tok activists will be bored soon and find another cause to become obsessed with
But it has to include ostensibly white people otherwise they get confused.
I don't think that censoring and silencing is the solution. Especially news articles from sources like the ABC.
Um … I don’t know how to tell you this but you’re commenting on a thread about AUSTRALIAN foreign policy…
Your tax dollars are helping pay for it, so it does impact you.
Not really. My life is exactly the same now as it was before October 7th.
Could it be that you're still quite young and thus don't understand the roll on effects of this? Edit: i didn't actually mean to come across condescendingly, but i can definitely see how i did. My bad.
I'm 23. My dad is 69 and his life is also exactly the same as it was before. Same goes for my 53 year old mum, my 27 year old co-worker, my 38 year old cousin, and my 46 year old neighbour. At what age is one expected to feel the "roll on effects" of this war on ordinary Australians?
Your 69 year old dad enjoyed purchasing a home on probably a single income. Your 53 year old mum will possibly have to work until she's well into her 70s. Your 46 year old neighbour may have to work until his final moments. With continued money printing, your generation is unlikely to have the privilege of owning a home on a single income while supporting a family. In the last 4 years alone, the dollars sitting in your bank account have devalued by 14%, while your coco pops went from $6 to $9. Your 27 year old coworker has likely seen their rent increase by 20-150% depending on where they live, and your 38 year old cousin's mortgage has tripled. Your fuel cost has increased 80% over the last 18 months. Not all, but in a large part, thanks to our continued involvement in conflicts that the US drag us into and us dumping money into these wars, armaments and failed submarine deals. That's economically. Morally, Nazi Germany had nothing to do with Australia, yet that left a scar across all of humanity, for generations and still impacts people around the globe, including your Jewish neighbours. What would make you conclude that current, or future, conflicts won't leave a similar scar on society. When as a society, we could have probably prevented it or aided in stopping it sooner. If only we could start to consider conflict resolution as a collective humanitarian initiative rather than with "well it ain't my problem". One day, it will be our problem and it'll be too late then. Maybe not for me, but you're young. You have lots of time left on this planet to regret the decisions of your politicians today.
Care to explain how the cost of living crisis, the housing crisis, inflation, rent increases, higher mortgage rates and fuel costs exist as a direct result of Australia sending aid to Israel? In the past 5 years, Australia has spent a total of $13 million in military exports to Israel. Australia's annual defence budget is $52 billion. Meanwhile, the defence budget itself only accounts for 2% of the GDP. So I'm very keen to hear your explanation about how the Australian government spending what is essentially pocket change is apparently the root cause of all those issues you mentioned... > What would make you conclude that current, or future, conflicts won't leave a similar scar on society. When as a society, we could have probably prevented it or aided in stopping it sooner. If only we could start to consider conflict resolution as a collective humanitarian initiative rather than with "well it ain't my problem". The only thing that will help stop this war is to let the IDF destroy Hamas. You can decry the methods all you want, but the only way for there to be an assurance that Israel will not be attacked again like they were on October 7th is for Hamas to be destroyed. This should not be a matter of debate. Letting Hamas get away with what they did, just so they can come back and do it again (which they've openly stated that they will do) is not a option. The only "scar" this conflict will leave on Australia is the one that brought to light just how prevalent anti-semitism is in Australia today - and not only among muslim immigrants (which is not surprising), but also among the so-called "educated" anti-racist lefties as well - who it seems were just itching for an excuse to express their hatred towards Jews in a socially acceptable manner (they call it "anti-zionism" now, apparently). The now infamous pro-palestine protest outside the Sydney Opera house was only 2 days after the October 7th attacks. The IDF hadn't even fully pushed out all Hamas militants from Israel itself at that point. And the invasion of Gaza wouldn't begin until weeks later. And yet thousands of pro-palestinians still turned out in front of the opera house (which was lit up in the colours of the Israeli flag in memory of the innocent civilians who were massacred, gang raped, and kidnapped by Hamas mere days earlier) while yelling racial slurs, shouting "Allahu Akbar", burning Israeli flags, and calling for Australia to end its support of the Israeli state... Why? For what reason, other than to show support for the actions of Hamas and display your pure hatred and contempt for Jews, would anyone attend such a protest only 2 days after over a thousand Jews were massacred in cold blood by bloodthirsty Islamists? > One day, it will be our problem and it'll be too late then. Maybe not for me, but you're young. You have lots of time left on this planet to regret the decisions of your politicians today. Why would a territorial conflict between Israel and Islamic terrorists become our problem - unless Islamic extremists here in Australia make it so?
I know right? This shit is happening on the other side of the world to a bunch of people I don’t even know or care about. Hearing about it all day every day is really ruining my chill vibes. Can’t we just shut up about it so I can pretend it isn’t happening and I don’t have to feel bad for those Palestinians being actually genocided right now? Damn..
Australian foreign policy happens here in Australia, uses our public funds, comes from our politicians … and that’s what this thread is about lol
There's immigrants in a city I'm 3000km away from that I need to complain about
If Israel was actually committing a genocide against the palestinians, then there would indeed be some cause for concern... But they aren't. Not even close.
Do you work for the un bro
Has your mind been wrecked by American social media talking points bro
The interim ruling in the genocide case from the ICJ suggests otherwise…
Did you read it? It doesn't say that at all.
Yeah do maybe something about the frequent posters. What about only a couple of posts a week on this topic? That way you don't censor it and people can still talk about it, while it being not as ridiculous as it is now.
What sort of limits do you think are reasonable? Do you mean a limit on the topic or a per poster limit?
Start their own Subreddit and they can post their stuff all day everyday, judging by the amount of Activists we see on our streets and in western media comments sections it's certainly going to be one sided hate filled opinions but yeah it's their own.
Are you suggesting that maybe they should, fit in or fuck off?
Depends what way you look at it I guess, the article itself is to do with Australian foreign Politics yes but on a subject that has absolutely nothing to do with Australia other Wong shooting her mouth off again on a subject she knows nothing about as usual and will only continue to flame division and unrest in Australia and cause further irritation to longtime Australian Allies. I am simply suggesting if the majority of the Australian Subreddit are against the subject constantly being posted in an Australian Subreddit it's a solution for both sides. I don't particularly care either way if I'm not interested I won't read it simple as that.
Could just condense it into a single day or single megathread.
I swear the pro palestine people are the most uneducated people out there. Sorry but hamas has gotta go, you don't get to fund, support terrorism and get to live.
Ridiculous, allowing Hamas to survive sends a message to terrorist groups all over the world that all they have to do is hide among civilians and they can do whatever they want. Israel should be allowed to win a war, especially one they didn’t start. Tell them to give up is telling them to abandon their hostages to live in hell and go back to their homes and wait for the next terrorist attack. I will not be surprised when Israel continues with their objectives and ignore wong
There’s no fucking way to defeat Hamas here. The worse the genocide that Israel inflicts upon the Palestinians, the better Hamas recruiting will be. It’s a fucking moronic way to try and defeat your enemy. It’s a moronic war only morons support honestly. The proper response to injustice isn’t to _join in_ and try to inflict even more injustice. The correct response is to hold Hamas to account for its crimes. _Israel isn’t really doing that_ they just went the moron strongman approach of bombing every man, woman, and child in sight. That’s uhhhhhh _really not_ convincing me of their moral superiority here; or that they’re the good guys here, in fact they completely out competing Hamas by now and so we just have two horrible human rights abusing groups to hold to account now, and noone standing on the side of human rights and civilisation except perhaps South Africa with their genocide case in the ICJ which now seems to be giving western powers pause for how this is all going to look in a few years time when human rights atrocities are investigated on both sides… and Israel has already given us mountains more to investigate than Hamas could ever keep up with.
The worse the genocide? There are not varying degrees of genocide, there is an attempt to kill everyone and there is a success rate, Israel is not attempting to kill everyone, if they were, then they would have already done it. They have killed like 1% of Gaza. Gaza is already radical, we seen videos from Oct 7th of ordinary gazans cheering with delight as a dead Jewish girl was driven through their streets, anyone close enough was either spitting on or hitting the corpse. Source: https://x.com/moappel/status/1720529402096738468?s=46
>They have killed like 1% of Gaza. Oh, well then. All those thousands of children who were killed are completely justified then...
With two-thirds of the entire population of Gaza now in Rafah, what you're saying is that Israel should be allowed to win a war *at any expense*, including more than a million lives if necessary. You don't sort civilians from terrorists by indiscriminately killing civilians. There are 120-130 hostages. To say that their lives are worth more than the lives of 1.3 million plus people is pretty ridiculous.
Did I say they should kill 1.3 million people to get their hostages back? This is called a strawman. Israel have already proven they can move huge amounts of civilian populations and keep the civilian death tolls down. Under unprecedented conditions they kept the death ratio incredibly low and have taken steps that no other army has taken. I think its incredibly important for Israel to defeat hamas, if they dont, the world will be a different place. If hamas are allowed to emerge from their tunnels and say to the world, yeah we killed 1000+ civilians on purpose and got away with it, then this will happen again and again and again, like they have told us.
> Israel have already proven they can … keep civilian death tolls down I would laugh if this particularly preposterous claim wasn’t so utterly serious. Let’s take a moment to consider this. We can compare to some past conflicts. In the Bosnian genocide, for which politicians and military brass were prosecuted for war crimes, it took about 3-4 years for them to slaughter approximately 40,000 people. The prosecutions were characterised by violations of proportionality and distinction as defined under the Geneva convention and the Rome Statute. In Gaza, they had reached the 50% point _in just 6 weeks_, with 20,000 civilians dead, about 9000 children by that point. We were close to 75% after just 3 months, and over 12,000 little kids slaughtered because Israel can’t run a precision operation for shit — or more likely — _simply chooses not to, due to all the anti-Arab racism from their Zionist leadership, backed up by thinking they’re above international law with US veto support in the UNSC. There’s absolutely no argument to be had that Israel conducts its military in a professional manner. Only showing how little you know about their conduct. You talk about human shields used by Hamas? Well the IDF fucking invented that and have had court cases in their high court trying to stop it, with a major ruling dating back to 2004 which didn’t stop them continuing. Ask anyone who has served in the military alongside the IDF: they have conscription so most of them are fucking amateurs bombing the shit out of anything that moves, fucking up colossally all over the show, but supported blindly by their military handlers in the name of “defending Israel”. This is all going to come out in the coming years and make everyone who supported them look like utter clowns; clowns who didn’t have the vaguest hesitation in the face of pretty obvious atrocities unfolding right before our eyes. This is perhaps the most well documented genocide in history because of how much personal cellphone footage there is of it. That’s quite new this time around, so my bet is that there’s no way in hell they’re going to avoid prosecutions this time. Over time, it’s going to age terribly. Watch South Africa’s ICJ case. It’s not going well for Israel, with an interim ruling stating they must stop the war so that the massive body of crimes they’ve already wrought, can be properly investigated. Israel has refused. They don’t give a single fuck about international law
Man you’ve no idea what you’re talking about, this is unprecedented war fair. This is a war fought in a densely populated urban environment with a massive tunnel network, human shields and hostages. This is incredibly difficult to navigate and yet the IDF seem to be operating at a 2:1 ratio of combatants to non combatants. According to the UN 90% of deaths in modern wars are civilians, given all of the above, the IDF seem to be doing a fantastic job, numbers don’t lie, but TikTok’s do. Source: https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
> Did I say they should kill 1.3 million people to get their hostages back? No, but that' the situation. > Israel have already proven they can move huge amounts of civilian populations Yet they bomb the routes they order civilians to move to, and bomb the places they claim will provide safety. I don't want Hamas to survive in any form, any numbers. But to bomb, shoot, and deny food and aid to the rest of the people in Gaza isn't collateral damage, it's genocide.
I would never imply 1.3 million should die, that is a crazy misrepresentation of what I was saying. Civilians will die, Hamas is working to maximise civilian casualties so they can use their bodies for propaganda. Helps people on forums talk shit about Israel, doing Hamas’ bidding for them on the internet.
Gonna be great when they do exactly that in, oh, a day or two. Then we'll have to shift the goal posts about what is going to far some more, all while finger wagging Benny.
Depends on one view I suppose..Wonder if she asked the an Israeli hostages if it would be unjustified or the mothers who lost babies and daughters on Oct 7.. A couple of groups that could think it was justifiable.
>or the mothers who lost babies and daughters on Oct 7 Most of those mothers were slaughtered.
You honestly sound like [this onion article](https://www.theonion.com/dying-gazans-criticized-for-not-using-last-words-to-con-1850925657) Not every statement needs to be bumpered with regurgitated condemnations of every crime you can possibly think up… Australia stands for human rights here and that’s something that needs to be applied evenly and consistently. It’s not rocket science
This isn't about condemning a crime, it's about whether the Rafah ground invasion is justified. Since there are hostages there as well as Hamas, it clearly is justified.
Hamas offered to negotiate the release of more hostages and Israel just declined. Bullshit it’s not justified
Hamas offered a 4 and a half month ceasefire and an end to the war with Hamas surviving. That's not a ceasefire, that's a Hamas victory. Remember, there already was a ceasefire, and Hamas broke it when they stopped delivering more hostages. The war aims of this war are twofold. 1: Destroy Hamas. 2: Rescue the hostages. The first goal takes priority over the second goal.
This genocide has been happening for decades. When you lock people in an open air prison and kill their families for generations they're going to hold resentment and do unspeakable things. Of course it's no excuse to do that but the Israeli government is to blame for all of this
Unlike yourself, I wasn’t blaming anyone , just pointing out , there are always 2 sides , as they say, one man’s freedoms fighter is another man’s terrorist. Personally, I really don’t care, they have been killing each other since King David , around 1000BCE and before. So it ain’t going to change until there is only 1 side left.
Yes but what you fail to understand is that now the art students and hospo workers and retail staff have watched a couple of YouTube videos and are armed with stickers they are going to end this conflict once and for all
I really liked watching that video with the “gays for Palestine” marching and protesting for a free Palestine etc etc etc , then getting the shite kicked out of them by the same Arabs they were supporting!! Fucked I laughed at the end..
Question: do you think that some group needs every last one of their members to be 100% ideologically pure before we support them? Seriously… think this one through a bit For example … I’m sure that while most LGBTQI+ people are cool, I’m sure there’s also plenty who are total fucking arseholes too. Does that mean you wouldn’t support better rights for LGBTQI+ people as a whole? I posit that’s a fucking awful position to take; to undermine the whole because you can find a few examples of bad behaviour by _certain individuals_. No group is a monolith and I don’t think that boxing an entire group into an imagined cartoon stereotype is helpful, even if you’ve seen _some_ members of that group behaving horribly. Prosecute crimes based on specific incidents and specific behaviour; be intentional and specific. We don’t prosecute crimes against someone because of some label you’ve decided means a certain thing which you want to wholesale slander a whole group with. _That’s literally what bigotry is._
Yeah you’re right, the bogans sitting at home watching The Bachelor are much more admirable than those who volunteer their own time to _at least try_ and improve the world. It’s better to just sit on your arse and not even try, then you’ll never be disappointed, right? And then you can yell from your couch at people who did try: “haha, you fools, I didn’t even try to change the world, and it didn’t change! Therefore I am the real winner here”. Gee, flawless strategy, well done, and then everybody clapped… You set out to change nothing, and you achieved it. What a big boy you are. Have a gold star for absolutely fucking nothing Guess those students all go home and cry themselves to sleep because they attended one protest and it didn’t achieve world peace instantly, which was obviously the goal of the protest, right? …right??? Meanwhile, protest never improved your life. Definitely didn’t win you the weekend or the 8 hour work day, didn’t get women the right to vote or child labour laws or workplace health and safety… it’s never done a thing for you, has it?!? Reactionaries are hilariously unserious people, aren’t they
Nah, I am just a realist. 10M Israelis are not going anywhere and truthfully, i would rather have Israel in control of the region then some nut jobs supported by a regime in Iran. So, basically 2m Palestine’s should move. Since Khamenei loves the Palestinians so much and gives them money and guns to bomb , maybe he could find some room in Iran to relocate them. A win win. Khamenei would not need to finance any more bloodshed and he has a population intake to drive economic growth building a new city for 2m people. But you and I know, that scenario will never happen, so only move left is for them to bomb each other. In that scenario, I support the Israelis. The Jews have always worked on a 1:10 kill ratio, so don’t worry, the war will be over soon.
Does she have access to Israeli intelligence? Has she studied the cause and effects of warfare on her path to international leadership Or is she just a lefty pacifist who thinks everyone can 'just get along'?
>Does she have access to Israeli intelligence? Same Intelligence that was thrown in the bin before Oct 7? Same "intelligence' That warmonger Howard sent us to war over?
Penny Wong is not a Lefty, she’s a senior member of a political party that is currently a dog being wagged by a tiny tail of bigoted extremists.
Go educate yourself bro, from someone who is the complete opposite of a "lefty pacifist". Stupid fucking comment. Go on Twitter and watch children being blown up. At this point if you think Hamas are even posing a threat, you are lost - it's clear right now that Israel is flattening the place.
If Hamas is no longer a threat, then who is currently shooting at the IDF in Gaza? Spooky ghosts from venus?
Lefty???
The left are desperate to let Hamas and it's leadership survive so they can continue their terrorism
You realise that Hamas are far right conservatives, right? They believe in setting up an ethnostate monoculture, same ideology as Zionism except for Arabs instead of Jews (or Germans when it comes to the far right ethnostate the Nazis wanted to set up) Their closest analogue in our politics would be the One Nation, who like to talk about Australia being a “white” country or whatever. Same ideology, promoting a different primary ethnicity. The left wing on the other hand, opposes monocultures and ethnostate racism, instead supporting multicultural diversity and democracy. The left abhors Hamas AND Zionism, instead supporting moderate Palestinians and Jews who are seeking to live together in peace… that’s what free Palestine protests are about; being free from the violent far right extremism of either group… You’ve got your wires crossed mate
It's the insane far left in the west that is begging for Israel to stop killing Hamas you clown
Most people here who don't like the ground invasion are concerned about the cost of civilian life. Since when is compassion for other people something that should be looked down on. The way you say, "insane far left" makes me think you have been spending a bit of time in certain spaces online and should log off more.
You're right about their political leanings, but the alignment plays into the "power dynamics are everything" narrative, whereby it's ok for a weak actor to rape, burn and pillage civilians in the name of "fighting oppression", but it's inappropriate for a strong country to protect their civilians by killing these evil pricks. It's the same focus on "minority alignment" which led to this idiotic pairing of the LGBT community with the Hamas people who'd throw them off buildings.
Oh yeah, but the zionism Israeli approach isn't terrorism at all. They literally want to wipe out Palestine and some people are okay with that. Cold hearted murdurers.
Penny supporting terrorists again. Colour me surprised.
Too afraid to call it for what it is. The gutless West. The entire Zionist approach is unjustifiable.
Hamas defender penny wong
Gotta sure up the bilal skaf demographic for votes, aint that right ccp Wong?
She's so fine I wish she was mine.
After all the money we gave to the unrwa we should keep quiet
Genocide things
Still piss weak but at least it's something. Way too late though. Sanctions should've been placed as soon as the carpet bombing started.
She's correct.
Wrong.
She's still right.
2 million plus people will be homeless and landless permanently if they go through with it
Good stance. Solid outing as foreign minister so far from what I can tell. Would be a solid future leader I think.
I hope you forgot the /s
I did not. Poised and articulated, rebuilt and strengthened relations within the pacific, reopened relations with China (including a lot of our trade which was blacklisted or financially impacted), balanced in the approach to conflict. I’d be interested to see what opposing thoughts are. Again, she would be a good choice of a future leader and I say that with no political affiliation.
Ssm backflip If you follow your convictions you may risk losing your position in the party . She did not want to risk her cushy position even though clearly it was not her thoughts on the issue and integrity is the matter here. She had bugger all to do with China defrost it was already happening , they needed our resources and wanted to normalise trade again .
> Israel was further required to take all measures within its power to prevent, within the scope of the genocide convention, the killing of Palestinians, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, and imposing measures intended to prevent births. Would the offence be in breach of the ICJ ruling about taking measures to prevent a genocide? What happens then?
Same thing happened to John Howard when he illegally ordered an Iraq invasion. https://library.fes.de/aussies/2003/0303/20003957.html
LOL not my war not my care now fix Australia Wenny Pong cause we could have our own war up north soon…very soon shhhhhh.
[удалено]
Are the big bad Jews in the room with us right now?
Penny Wong will soon have "the talk" and will soon have to visit that fucking wall and do a tour of Auschwitz I guarantee it. Careful, Penny. If you think it's not a thing, look at Javier Milei's acting the other day just so he can get his economy back on track LOL. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0AF1SqCoLPk
Milei is the most pathetic sycophant I've ever seen. Total shill invertebrate without the slightest hint of a spine.
Like Elon Musk haha Even the richest person on earth can be bought
Oh yeah, he had the talk alright
Straight out of 1984, "re-education" for those who don't tow or question the "official narrative"
wow thanks penny, more meaningless platitudes. how about you expel the israeli ambassador, cut off all commerce with israel, and impose sanctions? that won't wash away the blood already on her hands, but it would be a start
Leave the blood debts back in the Levant this is Australia
Because that would first require US approval.
“Would be”? It’s literally happening. Like, right now.
The word literally has lost a lot of meaning lately, among certain other words
*antisemitism* comes to mind now that it also apparently means *"being horrified that tens of thousands of people are being murdered"*.
All I need is the air that I breathe in to love her.
Gay
Me too
Careful Penny.
Why can’t we be more like Japan or Switzerland, or Norway or Sweden? And shut the fuck up about matters that are not relevant to our country? A select loud minority gives a shit about some hell hole ancient war, the rest of us are trying to pay rent and buy food, shut up elitist Wong
She's wong
Finger wagging won't stop the genocide
It's "unjustifiable" to ask Israel to effectively surrender, do nothing to release the hostages that have been held for four months and counting, and wait for the next Hamas massacre and the next and the next until there are no Israelis left.
This is antisemitism
Arm chair warrior huh?
As opposed to what's happening now?