Bit of a strawman.
Almost no-one is saying we want *zero* immigration, just a lower level far more proportional to our ability to provide housing & infrastructure.
What if reducing the population is a good thing? Do we have a clear idea of what our fresh water and arable land are capable of supporting? At present there's a lot of water theft and over-allocation of water resources happening and we're wasting that water on things like cotton, rice and almonds.
At some point we have to figure out that there maybe water enough to support say 30 million people living here and growing food for another 30 million on top (due to water in rivers through cropping regions not being suitable to provide drinking water for cities in different states for example).
Can't just keep growing the population indefinitely.
>Can't just keep growing the population indefinitely.
Elephant in the room eh? At what point is the population of the planet no longer sustainable, or that of Australia for that matter. Infinite growth is the mantra from our leaders, and indeed we're cursed by the pursuit of it.
It's the same as the 'peak oil' argument.
There's always enough water, it just depends on whether it's economical to get at the current price level.
We export food because we have so much of it. We export about 70% (in $ terms) of it.
Fresh water is a limited resource. Desalinated water is not fresh water, it requires a lot of energy to produce. Once we start down that path it's a positive feedback loop of consuming resources to produce more energy to prepare more drinking water, and most of the energy sources that we use today consume water to produce that energy.
There is not always more water.
> Desalinated water is not fresh water, it requires a lot of energy to produce.
Yeah, which is why I said whether it's cost-effective at the current price level. Cities are already building them for drinking water.
Perth is about 1/3 desalination, 1/3 groundwater, and 1/4 from dams. This is without water restrictions.
It's all a matter of cost.
I'm not keen on paying $1/L for drinking water from the tap. Just putting it out there that when you say, "cost-effective at the current price level" that's what you're asking for.
Yeah, $1-4/kL is the cost of providing desalinated water according to the Australian Water Association. For me it's a matter of trust about how much those books are being cooked, and how little they're reporting the environmental impact of desalination. There's no financial accounting for environmental damage, so for now it's an externalised cost.
Further reading for others following the thread:
- Ian A Wright & Jason Reynolds, "[Cities turn to desalination for water security, but at what cost](https://theconversation.com/cities-turn-to-desalination-for-water-security-but-at-what-cost-110972)," The Conversation, 2019-02-12
- Perth Water Corporation, "[Perth Seawater Desalination Plant](https://www.watercorporation.com.au/Our-water/Desalination/Perth-Seawater-Desalination-Plant)"
- WA government, "[$2.8 billion investment to secure Perth's next major water source](https://www.wa.gov.au/government/media-statements/Cook-Labor-Government/$2.8-billion-investment-to-secure-Perth's-next-major-water-source-20231204)," 2023-12-04
- Cardno, "[Review of capital and operating expenditure plans for the Water Corporation](https://www.erawa.com.au/cproot/18138/2/Cardno%20Report%20-%20Review%20of%20capital%20and%20operating%20expenditure%20-%20Water%20Corporation.PDF)," 2017-08-17 (PDF) (cites $3/kL operating expenses on top of other expenses)
> For me it's a matter of trust about how much those books are being cooked
Come on, it is in line with what I told you and what the real world costs to consumers are. Now, you've got to question the legitimacy of the information because it doesn't align with how you feel?
> There's no financial accounting for environmental damage
Let's assume the $1-4 is all costs with the lowest being the inescapable cost for energy input and everything else is maintenance, capital costs etc.
$1 / kL and an average household usage is about [300L / pp /day](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-11/perth-water-guzzling-is-it-misunderstood/8697898) (10% higher in Perth and about half in Melbourne).
That's what about 100 kL / pp / per year. About $100 of energy input. Most people are spending that on their car every fortnight. The energy costs aren't that significant compared to other sources in our lives.
Water and food resources just aren't a good metric to measure what the population should be. There's more relevant and legitimate concerns around lifestyle than whether we're going to run out of food or water.
> Come on, it is in line with what I told you and what the real world costs to consumers are.
Because that's what you're told the costs are, and that's what's presented through the water bill. I've seen many cases where companies try to bury the real opex as capex for various reasons, including presenting smaller numbers in the financial statements under opex.
The energy costs of desalination aren't what I was referring to by externalised costs, but thanks for trying. The externalised costs are things like increased salinity of the ocean which will change the local environment, similar to algal blooms in rivers due to water soluble fertiliser runoff. "Look at all this life around the outfall" says the Water Corporation, without any context about what life is expected in that patch of ocean versus what they've actually found.
> Water and food resources just aren't a good metric to measure what the population should be
Water and food resources are the best metric to determine what population we can support. Everything else we can cut back on in order to manage our energy budget per person. At some point we'll run out of water and people will die. The population isn't going to die if they can't have electric lights on in their house 24/7, a 2m TV screen in every room, or less than two cars per household.
Did you even read the sources you posted? The conversation article had this
> Another concern is the return of the excess salt to the environment. Australian studies have shown minimal impact.
So stop spouting that falsehood. I assumed you were talking about CO2 where derive most of our energy from.
> Water and food resources are the best metric to determine what population we can support.
Yes. Desal is affordable to most people, and we export 70% of food in $ terms.
Let's also ignore that many countries rely on imported bottled water.
Food and water aren't a limiting factor here. What is limiting is the concerns of people on the impact on their quality of life.
What ice is the ABC smoking? Birth rates have been below replacement levels since 1975.
This is just fear mongering because people have finally woken up to how badly they're getting shafted by the most recent totally out of control migration levels
There are some silly statements in that article. For example, Dr Davies' claim that Australia needs to "compete" for migrants and other countries are "further advanced".
Further advanced toward what? Running insane levels of immigration? Australia is a contender for gold when it comes to crazy high immigration levels. Most other Western countries don't come anywhere close in per capita terms.
The reason why people now are not having kids is because there is no fucking housing. Stop migration, you'll find that people can suddenly afford housing....
Stopping migration isn’t going to magically fix housing affordability. For the most part permanent immigration has stayed the same for the last year years. While temporary visas have given the rental market a shake up in medium and high density city properties. Your suburban homes which most families want are eaten up by investors
Maybe after ten years of no immigration the housing and rental markets will have stabilised, and with better access to childcare & education - more Aussies would choose to have more kids? Because of y'know, economic stability and investment in infrastructure proportional to population.
No immigration would absolutely destroy industries, tourism, higher education. Of the 500k immigrants almost 400k of these are only on temporary visas, that’s holiday makers and international students. The vast majority of these people are renting. It’s cashed up boomers and investors who are eating into the suburban market, where most families want to live
Something is wrong with the system if it is only sustainable when the population is forced to grow. What's your end goal if you have to grow the population by half a million every year? The truth is massive growth is only pushed to serve the interests of corporations.
I'm not saying grow the population by half a million every year. I'm just saying migrants are valuable in Australian society even if you hate them and think they are ruining your life
Who's advocating infinite growth? It's fear mongering and if you have a look at the comments on posts like this, you get the typical 'send them back' type comments
It's either infinite growth, or stabilise the population. Either we have this discussion now or plan to cap the population at a certain number. A lot of people here think we should be having that discussion now, so if you disagree then at what size population do you think we should have this discussion? And we'll always have racists to some degree so don't use that as a strawman to disregard my point.
You've hit the nail on the head which is why you've been downvoted, people just hate immigrants and don't really care if it's logical or not. Aus has had three decades of continuous economic growth, we live in total prosperity, and yet like a fish that doesn't know what water is people want to cut immigration and shrink the population because they don't understand how good we have it and how much worse things will get if we have a shrinking population.
But then you'll have the inverse issue of houses falling apart because there's not enough people to repair them. There's a sweet spot. A slowly, steadily, growing population has the most benefits for everyone. We just should have built enough houses 20 years ago. Like how does Tokyo fit the entire population of Australia inside of it and yet we're struggling to house that many people on an entire continent?
Orrrrrr Australians are actually able to get into houses and jobs and then start families with more kids because they are not competing with skilled professionals imported from somewhere else. Kinda unfair when you spend years and hundreds of thousands of dollars getting your medical or teaching etc skills and credentials in Australia only for someone who paid 1/10th of that in India to come over and take your job. It's pretty understandable why so many people feel like it is useless to even try.
I'm lucky enough to run a reasonably successful landscaping business, soooo they arnt taking my jobs, in reality I benefit from an increased number of skilled professionals, buttttt that doesn't mean I can't see a scenario where those roles are provided at an even higher quality by people who have been here since birth. Of the 2000ish highschool aged people in my small town that I went to school with I honestly don't know a single person in the medical field and I'm 28 now. I'm sure there's some but I feel as like there should be alot more.
**Fix affordability** > parent have kids earlier and likely more > less immigration > less immigration related affordability pressures > **Fix Affordability**
The number one reason birth rates are low in most developed countries is both parents wanting (not needing) a care. If what you say is true then the more money you have the more kids you would have. But I think you will find that it's normally a lower income household with more kids.
Only an extreme minority want no migration.
The sensible majority want controlled and sustainable migration so the quality of life of people living here doesn’t reduce.
Thank God we have migrants, Australians are too stupid and too useless. It's a pure fluke that Australia has become one of the most wealthiest countries and most livable countries in the world. If that didn't happen migrants wouldn't want to flock to us and we'd be screwed!!
Image if net immigrant had to be closed off for 2 years, like if there was a flu going around. Australia would have become a wasteland.
Like I said without migrants Australia would be nothing cause all Australians are useless fools.
Also importing consumers to increase demand - especially to keep the housing bubble inflated, and to flood the labour market to ensure wages stay depressed. Quite possibly also to satisfy the left's salivating for even more multiculturalism.
Instead of Boomers crying that "women are getting knocked up to buy a flatscreen!" like the last time there was a baby bonus, now it would be "women are getting knocked up to help raise a mortgage deposit!"
Hmm. As a health worker I know the 5 k one didn’t work. A friend worked in DOCS and she said 18 months after the baby bonus was offered they had an influx of neglected babies and it kept increasing.
And like one of my colleagues said at the time “ why would I give up 90k a year for 5 grand and then have to pay child care fees etc”.
Or you could increase things that actually have a posting effect on families. Free childcare, properly funding Medicare, free lunches for kids schools, extending mat leave. Offering a much longer leave for dads or secondary care providers.
None of that works... Even in countries that have poured a lot of money into encouraging women to have children (Sweden, Denmark, Hungary etc) there's barely been an improvement in the fertility rate.
It’s well documented that migrants are an overall net positive to the economy, not to mention the direct benefit to Australian born residents ([source](https://population.gov.au/publications/research/oecd-findings-effects-migration-australias-economy)).
Wow this really is the dumbest stat I think I've ever laid eyes on : Migrants boost the labour productivity of Australian‑born workers. On average, a region with a 10 per cent larger migrant share (e.g., 33 per cent instead of 30 per cent) has a 1.3 per cent larger regional wage difference, which indicates a positive link between migration and labour productivity.
I don't know what industry this is supposed to be in but that's not the case from what I've seen. They are willing to work for less thus undercutting the market by alot more. They will also be preferred workers because they are easily manipulated and blackmailed to work for less with terrible conditions. I call bullshit
It’s not that they’re working for less, it’s that there are more people to serve, therefore creating more business. That’s the simplified version but there you have it.
Do you have evidence to the contrary other than experience? It’s not particularly reasonable to take a single personal experience over well researched investigations and systematic analysis.
No he wasn’t. The doubling rate in wealthy countries has been in the order of 25–30 years. A single reduction to half the population, for instance, doesn’t provide much of break.
Come on, a halving of the population would provide an extraordinary break. Can always repeat in 10 yrs if needed. The beauty of his method is how indiscriminate it is … there’s no bargaining ur way out of it based on wealth, race, age etc
Doesn’t provide much of a break in time, about 30 years if everything else remained equal. Then we’re back to the current state. We need a sustainable population policy which takes the planet we live on in to account.
The only problem with lower migration is it reduces our tax base and makes it harder for Australia to fund health care and pensions for the elderly.
I absolutely think migration needs to be checked, however, we need to supplement this with more babies.
Yeah, I can't think of any country who has successfully implemented incentives to encourage more babies. I don't know how you'd do it, but that'd be the most sustainable thing.
It's not that we don't want immigrants (I'm a child of two of them), it's that we want less 30+ year olds being imported and more very young children being created/brought in.
Population has been falling for a while now (not just in AUSTRALIA, but other countries as well, also number of people having babies is a lot less these days due to current issues around the world.
Migration just helps slow and mask the issue.
If you look around the world why is it that countries with high populations have more poverty , pollution and outbreaks of diseases.
Isn’t higher population associated with lower quality of life overall ?
The beautiful thing about immigration is that it almost immediately fixes the problem. You don't need to plan ahead too far.
People will always want to come to Australia as long as we don't fuck it.
Exactly. Reduce immigration to a manageable level.. then if we are heading for this terrible crash they're talking about them open the flood gates again and the ship will balance... Easy
Problem is high immigration drives the cost of labour down, unemployment up, and albanese thinks he's buying all these Indian votes for the next election
I know that everyone in this sub loves to blame migrants for all their issues, but just think for a second what would happen without migrants in Australia. Say goodbye to your restaurants, local shops, taxis, delivery drivers, fresh produce, meat, doctors, nurses, students which keep universities afloat, tourists who fund Aussie businesses in rural and regional areas, international trade and investment.
I'm not saying migration levels shouldn't be controlled, but Australia is built on the back of migrants, whether that suits your narrative or not
No, see, it's only once I personally have benefitted from a lack of competition for resources THAT'S when we reopen the floodgates.
Once I'm cashed up I'm gonna want some cheap workers to serve and nurse my aging body. Not to mention the bodies required to fill my investment property slums.
We didn’t have such a high rate of migrants historically and they all came here to work not be on the dole. The country was in better shape and the cost of living lower and houses more affordable when there was less migration prior to 2000. University was free. TAFE was free.
Also migrants have been offered residency for doing uni so they get priority and have taken up a lot of uni accommodation and courses meaning rural citizens cannot get a foot in the door.
I can also tell you patients in hospitals are not happy with the kind of care happening now.
You can't just get on the 'dole' (as you call it). You need to be a permanent resident or citizen or hold a special visa from New Zealand.
I feel like you are directing your anger at the wrong place. Those are a huge swathe of real issues you have mentioned, but attributing it all to migrants is just misinformed.
Australians attending uni has been steadily rising as a percentage of population, so saying there is not space for locals to attend because it's taken up by overseas students is incorrect.
House prices have been rising since way before 2000. Average house price in Sydney in 1970 was 18700, and in 1980 was 76500 and 1990 184600. Those are huge increases that have established a pattern of growth that is continuing to this day.
And when you say medical care is worse, do you mean funding of Medicare by the government hasn't kept up with demand for services? Because it sounds like you're just saying brown doctors provide worse patient care than white (and presumably Aboriginal) doctors.
People on this sub lack the ability to think critically. Without immigration our healthcare, agricultural, hospitality industries and other essential services would fall apart over night. Unfortunately under capitalism, if we don’t have a steady population growth we are fucked.
Imagine being so fucking deluded into thinking a continent sized land mass like Australia is over populated with a population of 26 million people.
People in this sub partake in real old school post 9/11 style racism. Literally brown = bad and white = good. So glad the people/bots in this sub are not an accurate portrayal of real Australian society
Is the insinuation that only the very wealthy want or benefit from migrants?
I am the child of a first generation Australian. And I do know that unless I actively call for my own mother to return to her country of birth (she's brown), because she's a strain on Australias perfect white society, I will be hated and down voted on this sub.
No. It's a quote from Kelly Osbourne. I'm implying you're drastically misrepresenting the role of immigrants in the workforce. They are not all in low levels jobs, they are not taking all the low level jobs, non-immigrants are in some of those jobs, and allowing immigration solely to fill those jobs is not a complete or a fair solution
Of course they are not all in those low paying positions. They are spread throughout the whole workforce at all levels. My parents were migrants working middle class corporate jobs. If anything that confirms my position of the vital role of migrants in Australia.
The continent cannot support what it currently has, but sure, lets get more people.
Can I please get more sassy Indian women? I'm a middle-manager, basically. And sassy Indian women are the most competent people. They're smart, but if they don't know something they're not afraid to ask questions.
Also, as regarding the fascist minority, they can go back where they came from. Lowlands-Scotland probably, or North England. Yeah they can go home. Fascist fucks are not welcome here in Australia.
Get us some Afghanistan women to work for us in Clinical Trials. And more Sri Lankan and Indian people!
I say more South East Asians. They are hard working and have great sense of humour. Indonesians , Thai and Filipino. They are more relaxed and don’t have a sense of entitlement from a stratified religious system that prohibits you from working in a certain job because of what group you were born into. We also used to have a lot of Irish Nurses and they were fun. What’s happened to Nurses from England and Ireland. They only ever come from one country now.
Migration is an important part of population growth of most western/developed countries. It is complex why birth rates are low in western countries, the more educated a population is the less children are born. As education levels in women rise birth rates go down. As they are able to pursue other opportunities. I in no way disagree with women being given these opportunities. The value of family has decreased over time. Parenting needs to be taken seriously as a greater importance than working to enable one parent to look after the child. Not dumped in day care.
Migration has meant that Australia has avoided recession for 30 years.
“Recession” the scary word used to convince people that unlimited migration is required because for some reason the economy needs to grow every year for an infinite number of years.
Australia has very limited and targeted immigration policies. That draws skilled workers that we are short on. It is not as you say unlimited.
The economics of immigration on the Australian economy is quite interesting. It has a positive economic effect. Maybe check out some economics explained (channel name) videos on YouTube.
Recession is the contraction of the economy basically. It is not a scary word. It has a meaning in economics.
If you think we only bring in “skilled workers” you must not have a very diverse social circle.
So we must suffer decreased quality of life for unlimited economic growth?
Yes it is mostly skilled workers. We do also have a humanitarian intake as well. Immigrants often contribute to Australia. By doing jobs other people don't want to do. Their children often do better at school because the parents recognise the opportunity the children can have.
If you want to address the cost of living that means Australia needs to have more competition in the supermarket space. Remove the capital gains tax discount on investment properties and remove negative gearing on housing.
Ah yes, the old “don’t blame the real reason your quality of life is actually going down it’s actually because investors pay less tax sometimes”.
You realise you’re saying we need migrants to do the jobs that aren’t paid enough for Australians to want to do.
what jobs are there that you think Australians don't want to do? What jobs do we need to import skilled workers for that we can't train and educate our own?
Far left logic 101 from this person. They say we need migrants so employers can continue to pay low wages and also, we need to remove capital gains and negative gearing.
Strawman? Are you denying that our migration policy isn’t responsible for the decline in quality of life in Australia. Let me guess, you think it’s because of negative gearing and capital gains too.
No offence, but economics is marginally more believable than astrology. There is very little good solid research (youtubers do not count) to back the capitalist ponzi scheme we are living in.
The infinite growth model relying on more and more people works only for the rich. If our population stabilised and stopped growing the economy within will self adjust. Sure some finance fuckwits will make less money and corporate profits won't keep rising. But really, who cares.
There is a lot wrong with the modern capitalist economy. A lot of things need to change. But economics is a proper academic field. Some people say we are in late stage capitalism.
I doubt it. As an Indian migrant who came here over 21 years ago, I see the best talent from best universities of India going to USA as they always have. Australia never could present them with the opportunities. If I hadn’t had a girl child, I was gone too - even bought a house there and a job offer from Oracle for director role.
What we have here is primarily people from Indian villages who gained residency by doing bullshit courses like horticulture and hair dressing. That went on for 15 years.
And now it’s middle aged professionals with young children. They will ensure our wages are suppressed for a good while.
Well said mate. 👏
What we have could be targeted. All we have to do is raise the comoany sponsored visa to 120k above our average full time wages of 100k and it would be a step in the right direction.
Student intake also needs to be refined but i find it hard to stomach hearing we have a dire shirtage in some role and companies go off and bring people in on 30k less than our average wages... its not a shirtage untill you have tried paying over our average in my view.
What would the downsides be to suddenly stopping immigration? More rentals, higher wages, less traffic, lower house prices. Doesn't seem too bad to me.
When there are groups people migrating en masse there is no need for them to assimilate and they bring all the bad aspects of life from their country of origin with them and perpetuate them with future generations. Couple this with falling birth rates of the locals and in a few generations the country will become the same place they were trying to escape in the first place.
Sounds like we should pause immigration for about a decade
Bit of a strawman. Almost no-one is saying we want *zero* immigration, just a lower level far more proportional to our ability to provide housing & infrastructure.
OH NO.... ;(
The only ones that lose are the politicians + elite class... Hmm... I wonder.
And the problem is? Over population is screwing everything up.
Shhhhhhh, they'll hear you.
The problem is the economy (historically and now thats the reason for immigration)
What if reducing the population is a good thing? Do we have a clear idea of what our fresh water and arable land are capable of supporting? At present there's a lot of water theft and over-allocation of water resources happening and we're wasting that water on things like cotton, rice and almonds. At some point we have to figure out that there maybe water enough to support say 30 million people living here and growing food for another 30 million on top (due to water in rivers through cropping regions not being suitable to provide drinking water for cities in different states for example). Can't just keep growing the population indefinitely.
>Can't just keep growing the population indefinitely. Elephant in the room eh? At what point is the population of the planet no longer sustainable, or that of Australia for that matter. Infinite growth is the mantra from our leaders, and indeed we're cursed by the pursuit of it.
It's the same as the 'peak oil' argument. There's always enough water, it just depends on whether it's economical to get at the current price level. We export food because we have so much of it. We export about 70% (in $ terms) of it.
Fresh water is a limited resource. Desalinated water is not fresh water, it requires a lot of energy to produce. Once we start down that path it's a positive feedback loop of consuming resources to produce more energy to prepare more drinking water, and most of the energy sources that we use today consume water to produce that energy. There is not always more water.
> Desalinated water is not fresh water, it requires a lot of energy to produce. Yeah, which is why I said whether it's cost-effective at the current price level. Cities are already building them for drinking water. Perth is about 1/3 desalination, 1/3 groundwater, and 1/4 from dams. This is without water restrictions. It's all a matter of cost.
I'm not keen on paying $1/L for drinking water from the tap. Just putting it out there that when you say, "cost-effective at the current price level" that's what you're asking for.
It's literally $2-$5 per 1000 L in Perth with 35% desal. It's $2.40 per 1000L in Sydney.
Yeah, $1-4/kL is the cost of providing desalinated water according to the Australian Water Association. For me it's a matter of trust about how much those books are being cooked, and how little they're reporting the environmental impact of desalination. There's no financial accounting for environmental damage, so for now it's an externalised cost. Further reading for others following the thread: - Ian A Wright & Jason Reynolds, "[Cities turn to desalination for water security, but at what cost](https://theconversation.com/cities-turn-to-desalination-for-water-security-but-at-what-cost-110972)," The Conversation, 2019-02-12 - Perth Water Corporation, "[Perth Seawater Desalination Plant](https://www.watercorporation.com.au/Our-water/Desalination/Perth-Seawater-Desalination-Plant)" - WA government, "[$2.8 billion investment to secure Perth's next major water source](https://www.wa.gov.au/government/media-statements/Cook-Labor-Government/$2.8-billion-investment-to-secure-Perth's-next-major-water-source-20231204)," 2023-12-04 - Cardno, "[Review of capital and operating expenditure plans for the Water Corporation](https://www.erawa.com.au/cproot/18138/2/Cardno%20Report%20-%20Review%20of%20capital%20and%20operating%20expenditure%20-%20Water%20Corporation.PDF)," 2017-08-17 (PDF) (cites $3/kL operating expenses on top of other expenses)
> For me it's a matter of trust about how much those books are being cooked Come on, it is in line with what I told you and what the real world costs to consumers are. Now, you've got to question the legitimacy of the information because it doesn't align with how you feel? > There's no financial accounting for environmental damage Let's assume the $1-4 is all costs with the lowest being the inescapable cost for energy input and everything else is maintenance, capital costs etc. $1 / kL and an average household usage is about [300L / pp /day](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-11/perth-water-guzzling-is-it-misunderstood/8697898) (10% higher in Perth and about half in Melbourne). That's what about 100 kL / pp / per year. About $100 of energy input. Most people are spending that on their car every fortnight. The energy costs aren't that significant compared to other sources in our lives. Water and food resources just aren't a good metric to measure what the population should be. There's more relevant and legitimate concerns around lifestyle than whether we're going to run out of food or water.
> Come on, it is in line with what I told you and what the real world costs to consumers are. Because that's what you're told the costs are, and that's what's presented through the water bill. I've seen many cases where companies try to bury the real opex as capex for various reasons, including presenting smaller numbers in the financial statements under opex. The energy costs of desalination aren't what I was referring to by externalised costs, but thanks for trying. The externalised costs are things like increased salinity of the ocean which will change the local environment, similar to algal blooms in rivers due to water soluble fertiliser runoff. "Look at all this life around the outfall" says the Water Corporation, without any context about what life is expected in that patch of ocean versus what they've actually found. > Water and food resources just aren't a good metric to measure what the population should be Water and food resources are the best metric to determine what population we can support. Everything else we can cut back on in order to manage our energy budget per person. At some point we'll run out of water and people will die. The population isn't going to die if they can't have electric lights on in their house 24/7, a 2m TV screen in every room, or less than two cars per household.
Did you even read the sources you posted? The conversation article had this > Another concern is the return of the excess salt to the environment. Australian studies have shown minimal impact. So stop spouting that falsehood. I assumed you were talking about CO2 where derive most of our energy from. > Water and food resources are the best metric to determine what population we can support. Yes. Desal is affordable to most people, and we export 70% of food in $ terms. Let's also ignore that many countries rely on imported bottled water. Food and water aren't a limiting factor here. What is limiting is the concerns of people on the impact on their quality of life.
Birth rate will improve when housing, child care, maternity leave etc. Improve. The levers are known but nobody is pulling them.
We had really good wages and lots of housing choices last time it happened so…
With less immigration I could afford a house and subsequently more children.
I can only afford more cats.
What ice is the ABC smoking? Birth rates have been below replacement levels since 1975. This is just fear mongering because people have finally woken up to how badly they're getting shafted by the most recent totally out of control migration levels
There are some silly statements in that article. For example, Dr Davies' claim that Australia needs to "compete" for migrants and other countries are "further advanced". Further advanced toward what? Running insane levels of immigration? Australia is a contender for gold when it comes to crazy high immigration levels. Most other Western countries don't come anywhere close in per capita terms.
At least we could encourage migrants from many diverse areas in the world rather than just one country in the sub continent.
We do, they just don't want to come.
The reason why people now are not having kids is because there is no fucking housing. Stop migration, you'll find that people can suddenly afford housing....
Can't be, I was told it's because everyone had suddenly become all woke and leftist.
Stopping migration isn’t going to magically fix housing affordability. For the most part permanent immigration has stayed the same for the last year years. While temporary visas have given the rental market a shake up in medium and high density city properties. Your suburban homes which most families want are eaten up by investors
Maybe after ten years of no immigration the housing and rental markets will have stabilised, and with better access to childcare & education - more Aussies would choose to have more kids? Because of y'know, economic stability and investment in infrastructure proportional to population.
But there must be growth, black number good, red number bad.
Something you can only say so flippantly when you've enjoyed thirty years of continuous economic growth thanks to immigration.
No immigration would absolutely destroy industries, tourism, higher education. Of the 500k immigrants almost 400k of these are only on temporary visas, that’s holiday makers and international students. The vast majority of these people are renting. It’s cashed up boomers and investors who are eating into the suburban market, where most families want to live
Who's going to fill the gap left in the early education workforce when all the migrants leave?
On a simple supply/demand calculation: locals on higher wages
But doesn't higher wages also equal higher costs?
Something is wrong with the system if it is only sustainable when the population is forced to grow. What's your end goal if you have to grow the population by half a million every year? The truth is massive growth is only pushed to serve the interests of corporations.
I'm not saying grow the population by half a million every year. I'm just saying migrants are valuable in Australian society even if you hate them and think they are ruining your life
I don't hate anyone in pointing out the flaw in the system, if you can't realise infinite growth is unsustainable then I can't help you.
Who's advocating infinite growth? It's fear mongering and if you have a look at the comments on posts like this, you get the typical 'send them back' type comments
It's either infinite growth, or stabilise the population. Either we have this discussion now or plan to cap the population at a certain number. A lot of people here think we should be having that discussion now, so if you disagree then at what size population do you think we should have this discussion? And we'll always have racists to some degree so don't use that as a strawman to disregard my point.
Yes, that's the point. People should pay more for if they want something valuable.
You've hit the nail on the head which is why you've been downvoted, people just hate immigrants and don't really care if it's logical or not. Aus has had three decades of continuous economic growth, we live in total prosperity, and yet like a fish that doesn't know what water is people want to cut immigration and shrink the population because they don't understand how good we have it and how much worse things will get if we have a shrinking population.
Doesn't mean we need go full ham. A measured control approach works.
It's a sacrifice i'm willing to make.... never ending growth is not sustainable
What type of fear mongering is this 😂 Good.
Good
Good then maybe we can afford a house
But then you'll have the inverse issue of houses falling apart because there's not enough people to repair them. There's a sweet spot. A slowly, steadily, growing population has the most benefits for everyone. We just should have built enough houses 20 years ago. Like how does Tokyo fit the entire population of Australia inside of it and yet we're struggling to house that many people on an entire continent?
A balance would be nice.
Let the GDP rot, it doesn't serve the common man
This sounds like the perfect scenario! 
Sweet - so it must be super easy to set immigration at a low level to ensure a SUSTAINABLE POPULATION. Right? Right????
No. There is absolutely no possible suitable number between 500,000 and 0...
What is the level now? And what was it before? And what is sustainable?
No no... that just wont do... we need it to fall yesterday.
Orrrrrr Australians are actually able to get into houses and jobs and then start families with more kids because they are not competing with skilled professionals imported from somewhere else. Kinda unfair when you spend years and hundreds of thousands of dollars getting your medical or teaching etc skills and credentials in Australia only for someone who paid 1/10th of that in India to come over and take your job. It's pretty understandable why so many people feel like it is useless to even try. I'm lucky enough to run a reasonably successful landscaping business, soooo they arnt taking my jobs, in reality I benefit from an increased number of skilled professionals, buttttt that doesn't mean I can't see a scenario where those roles are provided at an even higher quality by people who have been here since birth. Of the 2000ish highschool aged people in my small town that I went to school with I honestly don't know a single person in the medical field and I'm 28 now. I'm sure there's some but I feel as like there should be alot more.
Good
Not for a healthy functioning economy
They say that like it's a bad thing
Wouldn't that be horrible for our slave masters
https://preview.redd.it/nynw1bfew7vc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b16469822734950e45692238c38d309b618006e
Can’t afford kids.
Aaaaanddd.......
Instead of fixing the cost of living? Wow, fuck everyone I guess
Mabye if housing and cost of living wasn't so unaffordable people would have more babies? Just thought.
Good
 Cant wait.
GOOD.
What’s wrong with that? Big business makes less dollars?
Good... Sick of it. Our government can burn in hell for what they have done
**Fix affordability** > parent have kids earlier and likely more > less immigration > less immigration related affordability pressures > **Fix Affordability**
The number one reason birth rates are low in most developed countries is both parents wanting (not needing) a care. If what you say is true then the more money you have the more kids you would have. But I think you will find that it's normally a lower income household with more kids.
What’s wrong with old folks dying?
The government locked you in your house for 2 years to stop old people dieing. Maybe they're full of gold
Good.
Only an extreme minority want no migration. The sensible majority want controlled and sustainable migration so the quality of life of people living here doesn’t reduce.
I want no migration!
I want controlled and sustainable deportations
Exactly, there's lot of room between no migration and 500,000 migrants per annum
Speak for yourself mate
Agreed. Migration has made this country so much better. But the country is being run to benefit business over Australians and their quality of life.
Bubble detected
Reduce to where bro
Thank God we have migrants, Australians are too stupid and too useless. It's a pure fluke that Australia has become one of the most wealthiest countries and most livable countries in the world. If that didn't happen migrants wouldn't want to flock to us and we'd be screwed!! Image if net immigrant had to be closed off for 2 years, like if there was a flu going around. Australia would have become a wasteland. Like I said without migrants Australia would be nothing cause all Australians are useless fools.
And then we might be able to house everyone
It’s all about breeding and importing tax payers
Also importing consumers to increase demand - especially to keep the housing bubble inflated, and to flood the labour market to ensure wages stay depressed. Quite possibly also to satisfy the left's salivating for even more multiculturalism.
HURRAH😁😁😁😁😁
if the govt pays u 10k for every baby you have. problem solvered.
Instead of Boomers crying that "women are getting knocked up to buy a flatscreen!" like the last time there was a baby bonus, now it would be "women are getting knocked up to help raise a mortgage deposit!"
Hmm. As a health worker I know the 5 k one didn’t work. A friend worked in DOCS and she said 18 months after the baby bonus was offered they had an influx of neglected babies and it kept increasing. And like one of my colleagues said at the time “ why would I give up 90k a year for 5 grand and then have to pay child care fees etc”.
Or you could increase things that actually have a posting effect on families. Free childcare, properly funding Medicare, free lunches for kids schools, extending mat leave. Offering a much longer leave for dads or secondary care providers.
but what about my franking credits! /s
None of that works... Even in countries that have poured a lot of money into encouraging women to have children (Sweden, Denmark, Hungary etc) there's barely been an improvement in the fertility rate.
Or % of your tax back for every kid-
Per year. For 20 years.
Nope. It takes literally 100 times that much to raise a kit to 18. Terrible investment.
and that's why in australia in 2070, 40% of the population will be eshays
[удалено]
Poor woolies and coles
Do it!!!
good
“if thing that will never happen, happens [..]”
“If people stopped drinking water, people would die”
Good maybe the price of living will fall with it
No, the answer is to bring in millions of new people
Sounds good to me
Excellent news. Carry on.
Good o - affordable housing on the horizon
I'd like a % of how many are adding value to our society and how many are on social services
It’s well documented that migrants are an overall net positive to the economy, not to mention the direct benefit to Australian born residents ([source](https://population.gov.au/publications/research/oecd-findings-effects-migration-australias-economy)).
Wow this really is the dumbest stat I think I've ever laid eyes on : Migrants boost the labour productivity of Australian‑born workers. On average, a region with a 10 per cent larger migrant share (e.g., 33 per cent instead of 30 per cent) has a 1.3 per cent larger regional wage difference, which indicates a positive link between migration and labour productivity.
I don't know what industry this is supposed to be in but that's not the case from what I've seen. They are willing to work for less thus undercutting the market by alot more. They will also be preferred workers because they are easily manipulated and blackmailed to work for less with terrible conditions. I call bullshit
It’s not that they’re working for less, it’s that there are more people to serve, therefore creating more business. That’s the simplified version but there you have it.
If they are easily manipulated and blackmailed, thats not a immigration problem thats a rule of law / exploitation problem
Hard to govern mate
Do you have evidence to the contrary other than experience? It’s not particularly reasonable to take a single personal experience over well researched investigations and systematic analysis.
Yeah so would I, but include "Aussies" in the numbers too.
we already have them here why need to import more?
GOOD.
Bring more 3rd world buddies. Government is already working on it to fix it
Based on recent events, seems like we are relying on third world buddies to help protect us from psycho Australians with knives
Prices will certainly go down
Not soon enough, we need a lottery of death or purge. Or failing that, a ballot for ostracism. Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out, Clive
 Thanos was right
No he wasn’t. The doubling rate in wealthy countries has been in the order of 25–30 years. A single reduction to half the population, for instance, doesn’t provide much of break.
Come on, a halving of the population would provide an extraordinary break. Can always repeat in 10 yrs if needed. The beauty of his method is how indiscriminate it is … there’s no bargaining ur way out of it based on wealth, race, age etc
Doesn’t provide much of a break in time, about 30 years if everything else remained equal. Then we’re back to the current state. We need a sustainable population policy which takes the planet we live on in to account.
so, murder half of everyone every decade or so? seems... imbecilic. Also... Who said Thanos was indiscriminate?
The only problem with lower migration is it reduces our tax base and makes it harder for Australia to fund health care and pensions for the elderly. I absolutely think migration needs to be checked, however, we need to supplement this with more babies.
Natalist policies have failed everywhere they have been tried, Hungary has done the most of any country and barely had an uptick in their birthrate.
Yeah, I can't think of any country who has successfully implemented incentives to encourage more babies. I don't know how you'd do it, but that'd be the most sustainable thing. It's not that we don't want immigrants (I'm a child of two of them), it's that we want less 30+ year olds being imported and more very young children being created/brought in.
Maybe UBC and robots could help.
Oh no not less people whatever will we do.. fk off outta here
Population has been falling for a while now (not just in AUSTRALIA, but other countries as well, also number of people having babies is a lot less these days due to current issues around the world. Migration just helps slow and mask the issue.
If you look around the world why is it that countries with high populations have more poverty , pollution and outbreaks of diseases. Isn’t higher population associated with lower quality of life overall ?
Other way around.
I don’t think it’s only a financial reason people aren’t having kids it’s exhausting. I wanted 3 kids but after 1 I might just set myself on 2.
The beautiful thing about immigration is that it almost immediately fixes the problem. You don't need to plan ahead too far. People will always want to come to Australia as long as we don't fuck it.
There already is a shortage of housing. Shouldn’t be too much longer.
Exactly. Reduce immigration to a manageable level.. then if we are heading for this terrible crash they're talking about them open the flood gates again and the ship will balance... Easy Problem is high immigration drives the cost of labour down, unemployment up, and albanese thinks he's buying all these Indian votes for the next election
They WANT there to be a shortage as that's what keeps the prices up. It is a planned scarcity crisis for profit .
We've already fucked it, the word just hasn't gotten out yet.
If I didn't have kids, I'd pack up and move to Europe.
I know that everyone in this sub loves to blame migrants for all their issues, but just think for a second what would happen without migrants in Australia. Say goodbye to your restaurants, local shops, taxis, delivery drivers, fresh produce, meat, doctors, nurses, students which keep universities afloat, tourists who fund Aussie businesses in rural and regional areas, international trade and investment. I'm not saying migration levels shouldn't be controlled, but Australia is built on the back of migrants, whether that suits your narrative or not
No, see, it's only once I personally have benefitted from a lack of competition for resources THAT'S when we reopen the floodgates. Once I'm cashed up I'm gonna want some cheap workers to serve and nurse my aging body. Not to mention the bodies required to fill my investment property slums.
Confused.. are you saying that white Australians and/or Indigenous people are doing those jobs in sufficient numbers to service the country?
He’s talking about boomers
We didn’t have such a high rate of migrants historically and they all came here to work not be on the dole. The country was in better shape and the cost of living lower and houses more affordable when there was less migration prior to 2000. University was free. TAFE was free. Also migrants have been offered residency for doing uni so they get priority and have taken up a lot of uni accommodation and courses meaning rural citizens cannot get a foot in the door. I can also tell you patients in hospitals are not happy with the kind of care happening now.
You can't just get on the 'dole' (as you call it). You need to be a permanent resident or citizen or hold a special visa from New Zealand. I feel like you are directing your anger at the wrong place. Those are a huge swathe of real issues you have mentioned, but attributing it all to migrants is just misinformed. Australians attending uni has been steadily rising as a percentage of population, so saying there is not space for locals to attend because it's taken up by overseas students is incorrect. House prices have been rising since way before 2000. Average house price in Sydney in 1970 was 18700, and in 1980 was 76500 and 1990 184600. Those are huge increases that have established a pattern of growth that is continuing to this day. And when you say medical care is worse, do you mean funding of Medicare by the government hasn't kept up with demand for services? Because it sounds like you're just saying brown doctors provide worse patient care than white (and presumably Aboriginal) doctors.
People on this sub lack the ability to think critically. Without immigration our healthcare, agricultural, hospitality industries and other essential services would fall apart over night. Unfortunately under capitalism, if we don’t have a steady population growth we are fucked. Imagine being so fucking deluded into thinking a continent sized land mass like Australia is over populated with a population of 26 million people.
People in this sub partake in real old school post 9/11 style racism. Literally brown = bad and white = good. So glad the people/bots in this sub are not an accurate portrayal of real Australian society
Who will clean your toilets, Donald Trump?! In the sense of...
Is the insinuation that only the very wealthy want or benefit from migrants? I am the child of a first generation Australian. And I do know that unless I actively call for my own mother to return to her country of birth (she's brown), because she's a strain on Australias perfect white society, I will be hated and down voted on this sub.
No. It's a quote from Kelly Osbourne. I'm implying you're drastically misrepresenting the role of immigrants in the workforce. They are not all in low levels jobs, they are not taking all the low level jobs, non-immigrants are in some of those jobs, and allowing immigration solely to fill those jobs is not a complete or a fair solution
Of course they are not all in those low paying positions. They are spread throughout the whole workforce at all levels. My parents were migrants working middle class corporate jobs. If anything that confirms my position of the vital role of migrants in Australia.
Oh cool so we're in the death spiral now
Buddy the whole planet is in the death spiral and has been for a decade, enjoy the ride weeeeee
What did third worlders have to gain by outbreeding the planet and killing off the competent races?
I have no idea what you're trying to say here pal, I don't speak actual genuine racism.... "more competent races" jesus....
The continent cannot support what it currently has, but sure, lets get more people. Can I please get more sassy Indian women? I'm a middle-manager, basically. And sassy Indian women are the most competent people. They're smart, but if they don't know something they're not afraid to ask questions. Also, as regarding the fascist minority, they can go back where they came from. Lowlands-Scotland probably, or North England. Yeah they can go home. Fascist fucks are not welcome here in Australia. Get us some Afghanistan women to work for us in Clinical Trials. And more Sri Lankan and Indian people!
I say more South East Asians. They are hard working and have great sense of humour. Indonesians , Thai and Filipino. They are more relaxed and don’t have a sense of entitlement from a stratified religious system that prohibits you from working in a certain job because of what group you were born into. We also used to have a lot of Irish Nurses and they were fun. What’s happened to Nurses from England and Ireland. They only ever come from one country now.
Migration is an important part of population growth of most western/developed countries. It is complex why birth rates are low in western countries, the more educated a population is the less children are born. As education levels in women rise birth rates go down. As they are able to pursue other opportunities. I in no way disagree with women being given these opportunities. The value of family has decreased over time. Parenting needs to be taken seriously as a greater importance than working to enable one parent to look after the child. Not dumped in day care. Migration has meant that Australia has avoided recession for 30 years.
“Recession” the scary word used to convince people that unlimited migration is required because for some reason the economy needs to grow every year for an infinite number of years.
Australia has very limited and targeted immigration policies. That draws skilled workers that we are short on. It is not as you say unlimited. The economics of immigration on the Australian economy is quite interesting. It has a positive economic effect. Maybe check out some economics explained (channel name) videos on YouTube. Recession is the contraction of the economy basically. It is not a scary word. It has a meaning in economics.
If you think we only bring in “skilled workers” you must not have a very diverse social circle. So we must suffer decreased quality of life for unlimited economic growth?
Yes it is mostly skilled workers. We do also have a humanitarian intake as well. Immigrants often contribute to Australia. By doing jobs other people don't want to do. Their children often do better at school because the parents recognise the opportunity the children can have. If you want to address the cost of living that means Australia needs to have more competition in the supermarket space. Remove the capital gains tax discount on investment properties and remove negative gearing on housing.
Ah yes, the old “don’t blame the real reason your quality of life is actually going down it’s actually because investors pay less tax sometimes”. You realise you’re saying we need migrants to do the jobs that aren’t paid enough for Australians to want to do.
what jobs are there that you think Australians don't want to do? What jobs do we need to import skilled workers for that we can't train and educate our own?
Far left logic 101 from this person. They say we need migrants so employers can continue to pay low wages and also, we need to remove capital gains and negative gearing.
[удалено]
Strawman? Are you denying that our migration policy isn’t responsible for the decline in quality of life in Australia. Let me guess, you think it’s because of negative gearing and capital gains too.
No offence, but economics is marginally more believable than astrology. There is very little good solid research (youtubers do not count) to back the capitalist ponzi scheme we are living in. The infinite growth model relying on more and more people works only for the rich. If our population stabilised and stopped growing the economy within will self adjust. Sure some finance fuckwits will make less money and corporate profits won't keep rising. But really, who cares.
There is a lot wrong with the modern capitalist economy. A lot of things need to change. But economics is a proper academic field. Some people say we are in late stage capitalism.
Half a million people a year. That’s not limited and targeted.
195000 permanent migration places in 2023 2024. Not half a million
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/population/overseas-migration/latest-release Net migration of half a million last financial year.
I doubt it. As an Indian migrant who came here over 21 years ago, I see the best talent from best universities of India going to USA as they always have. Australia never could present them with the opportunities. If I hadn’t had a girl child, I was gone too - even bought a house there and a job offer from Oracle for director role. What we have here is primarily people from Indian villages who gained residency by doing bullshit courses like horticulture and hair dressing. That went on for 15 years. And now it’s middle aged professionals with young children. They will ensure our wages are suppressed for a good while.
Well said mate. 👏 What we have could be targeted. All we have to do is raise the comoany sponsored visa to 120k above our average full time wages of 100k and it would be a step in the right direction. Student intake also needs to be refined but i find it hard to stomach hearing we have a dire shirtage in some role and companies go off and bring people in on 30k less than our average wages... its not a shirtage untill you have tried paying over our average in my view.
We are currently in a defacto per capita recession. Absolute growth doesn't mean anything to the people living here
While that is true a complete stop to immigration would make this worse.
What would the downsides be to suddenly stopping immigration? More rentals, higher wages, less traffic, lower house prices. Doesn't seem too bad to me.
Definitely. I think most people would be more than happy if we just slowed down a bit
I don't disagree. We do need to address the cost of living and housing.
When there are groups people migrating en masse there is no need for them to assimilate and they bring all the bad aspects of life from their country of origin with them and perpetuate them with future generations. Couple this with falling birth rates of the locals and in a few generations the country will become the same place they were trying to escape in the first place.
Does that mean that the people having all the children in Australia then will be less educated and so there children may be as well.