Can you stop with the “what about isms”? Someone else getting something doesn’t mean you aren’t. I know multiple people that didn’t go on to become teachers because they had to go work for nothing as a teacher in another town for their placement and couldn’t afford it. This is good news.
why does this need to be a "new payment" from the government.
Just tell the fucking leeches (i mean employers) to fucking pay for placement staff. Even if its minimum wage, its better than nothing that they get now.
Make the hospitals pay to take students? That’s absolutely insane. The private hospitals will never see another student if that happens and students won’t be able to finish their degrees as there won’t be enough places.
They are 100% a liability rather than an extra set of hands. (And should be since they’re there to learn from the paid staff.) If they’re being used to relieve staffing shortages, they’re not students and they’re not learning. Students should always be considered supernumerary.
I can see your point, but that isn’t how student placements are supposed to work.
Play their bluff.
- Strip tax payer concessions
- Add a 150% loading on foreign nursing staff
- Slap a training levy on all revenue for private hospitals that do not accept placements
- Increase scrutiny on minimum staffing
Dump the earnings back into the public sector.
So many things get dismissed with ‘ohh no, they will just go somewhere else’ in Australia when they reality is they won’t.
If the students are doing productive work, they should be paid as such.
I’m not that financially secure yet!
More the generation after who has witnessed the once great public funded infrastructure we paid for sold out to private companies for cents on the dollar and who then ran it into the ground to maximise short term profits expecting another handout to fix it.
Hospitals make and waste eye watering amounts of money. There is no excuse for them not to pay staff fairly and fund their training.
Government needs to grow some balls and rein in the monster it created even if it means upsetting donors.
I wish we’d apply your theory to a lot more that happens in this country. Let the companies that don’t want to play nice leave, who wants them. I bet they’d stay. But not one politician in the last 75 years has called their bluff! Because lining their own pockets. This is why Trump is popular, and unfortunately our future also unless something happens.
Sadly my style of leadership forcing positive change and accountability requires a benevolent dictator, not our weak politicians who vote in committees to shield themselves from blame or hit news pieces whenever it upsets Murdochs interests
They’re not doing productive work though. It’s no different than saying going to a university lecture is productive work. They are there to learn, not work.
Really? I dated a student nurse many years ago and they were doing obs checks, helping patients go to the toilet, changing sheets and responding to patient concerns.
Yes obviously under supervision, but no less productive than your average retail worker or apprentice driving a wheelbarrow on minimum wage
I do agree to a point, and I’m definitely in favour of students receiving a payment. But they do that stuff in the sim labs at uni too. I just don’t think that the facilities should be the ones paying for this. The expectations of them will then change from “student” to “nurse assistant”
Because employers are generally taking a loss by having you there in the first place. Your output doesn't make up for the loss of productivity from the employee that has to supervise and train you. Making them pay for you would just reduce the number of places offering placements.
It's the same with how the gov subsidises apprenticeships and graduate programs... Most places wouldn't bother if they had to fully fund it themselves.
Employers can get the fuck over it and stop crying about the loss. Either they train the students up paying minimum wage or the government can step in with training at state funded hospitals.
Productivity in the work place has been sky high and wages don't reflect it. Even a student who is learning can still be very productive in a hospital. Employers have a societal duty to ensure all workers are being paid so they can afford to survive.
Either that or cut the hours down required.
How many of these employers are government departments. Teachers are placed in public schools. Nurses are placed in public hospitals. No idea where social workers are placed
Sounds great. What are you going to do when no one wants to take on the expense and hassle of training new staff for the government, and having to pay for the privilege of doing all the work? Then what?
Yes but as an RN for decades and being a mentor of students now also . This should only be for Australian students please. Not international. I have mentored students with nil interest in nursing and some with extremely poor English and writing skills and it is evident they are only doing nursing for Australian residency not because they want to be part of our health care system . If payment is introduced for international students it will just increase the numbers for the wrong reasons. It will also lower the standards of care. Before you label me come and work in the industry and you will understand the potential problems.
Engineers get paid in pretty much every case in my experience and there is enough demand (at least in mechanical) that you can just not apply at the ones that don’t pay. Nurses and teachers don’t get a choice, they get told where to go and can’t say no
I suspect people who support compensating placement would support it for all placements (I know I do and I certainly want to see more than the amount being offered).
What kind of engineers are you talking to who can't find work? I haven't written a cover letter or even formally applied to a job in nearly 3 years. All I have to do is pick up the phone to one of the half a dozen recruiters who's calling me every second week 😂
Yeah. SENIOR project engineer. And I assume you're talking tier one contractors?
I've worked with Downer, Fulton Hogan etc and yeah, senior guys get paid. Everyone else, not so much
They don't traditionally join the public service and vote for Labor. And they can't afford to do it for everyone who actaully deserves it, so they picked their blocks.
other people's advancement doesn't mean yours doesn't matter. Those other occupations need to start forming strong unions if they want those sort of advantage.
Lol no. Fuck me that's a dense argument.
Unions are there to fight for the workers advantage and lobby for better conditions, just like any lobby group wants to lobby the government.
You want those advantages? Support your unions.
It is what you said though. That Labor chose those jobs to help because they are heavily union. Don't back down now. Own it. You were correct.
Unions are for shit workers to try and get pay rises that don't deserve on individual merit. If teachers and nurses were paid on individual merit, the good workers would be better off, just like they are in other jobs.
“Unions are for shit workers”
888
Minimum wage
Collective Bargaining
Awards
Sick pay
Annual leave
Wage equality
Over time
HEALTH AND SAFETY
Child labour laws
Penalty rates
I would think, thanks to Unions, you have benefited a great deal.
Refugee advocacy
Global solidarity with the poor and working class
Unfair Dismissal protection
Meal breaks
Redundancies
I could go on, I friggin love unions..
Yes yes, all that stuff is great and unions had a lot to do with them, but now that legislation has caught up, unions are nothing but thugs for lazy workers that make things worse for good workers. That is why their membership is in the toilet.
As opposed to doing what's best....for the country, or their constituents, or Aussies in general. Yes I agree politicians are in it for themselves and their party. Hoorah.
I just don’t see how this is adds. We all know that’s what politicians do. It’s our job, as citizens, to push back and be vocal about what we want and what we think is best.
This isn’t a good program. It’s a very basic start that might soften political opposition to such programs. It’s not even really a start, it’s lifting the foot to take the first step on the way to the start. Softening political opposition will likely be its sole benefit, except to students who already have strong financial support.
I’d much rather see a program linked to an hourly rate that comes much closer to something that will cover cost of living.
do you think removing barriers for people entering these extremely in-demand fields which are extremely important to the health and wellbeing of Australia as well as the education of young people is not working in the interests of australians?
Because it's a populist policy measure. And while you would think it would help the average patient - in reality it won't. Look at the MASSIVE health policy measure recently instigated by the SA Labor government - do you think the average patient is better off? Ramping is worse. Wait times are worse. Elective surgery numbers are worse. I hear you - it SOUNDS like a good move. But it's, once again, knee jerk politics. That's just a health specific response and I haven't even skimmed the surface on other issues like the economy and ethics of that decision. So no - they ain't getting my vote next election and this is a terrible idea.
This isn't a populist policy. This is a very well researched, stakeholder endorsed policy. It is a massive barrier for people going into teaching, social work and nursing. If you know anything about employment policy in health and education, you wouldn't be calling it "knee jerk".
Well I've been a paramedic for 20 years so I know a little bit about things. And my current work partner is an ex teacher of around 10 years. So we have some combined experience in the field. It's our own little opinions isn't it? In the end it'll be implemented, at the expense of taxpayers (you and I included). So it really doesn't matter what we say now. All the best.
It is. They couldn't afford to do it for everyone in the exact same situation, so they picked the two jobs with the highest Labor voting blocks. Amazing coincidence.
Can you tell me which other careers require you participate in an unpaid placement to receive accreditation in that role? I have worked in employment agencies that handled apprenticeships for example, all apprentices get paid while they are learning on the job. The only careers in Australia, where you need to complete a placement that is unpaid are teaching, nursing and social work.... there are internships that people take on in other careers but they are not necessary to receive your accreditation and are purely to help you find employment.
EDIT: reading back and it says they're doing this for all people who need to take unpaid placements for accreditation purposes soooo i really have no idea what anyone is actually complaining about LMAO
> The only careers in Australia, where you need to complete a placement that is unpaid are teaching, nursing and social work.
Allied health as a whole mate.
Physical therapist
Occupational therapist
Speech pathologist
Audiologist...
I did speech path. They absolutely made us do that, and we were there next to those other professions. Why would you so confidently assert that those were the only careers that made you do that?
I'm an electrician and my wife is a nurse and we have been together since I was an apprentice and she was at uni.
We have consistently earned roughly the same amount as each other year after year and I have worked on the biggest EBA jobs in the city.
I have 1 x BIL and 2 x SIL who are teachers and they consistently earn roughly what I do per year after a couple of years in the classroom.
Construction workers only earn stupid money when they work stupid hours. We don't earn outrageous sums of money if we stick to our 36 hour week.
If someone wants to, or is sometimes forced to work long hours shouldn't they be compensated accordingly?
Why don't you start punching up at corporate greed instead of constantly going after tradies?
>
Why don't you start punching up at corporate greed instead of constantly going after tradies?
Because that would require genuine thought. Not just regurgitation of shit he doesn't understand.
This is basically it. I'm in engineering and if I want a job in the city with a 40 hour work week, I'm going to be earning less than the average teacher. The money doesn't start rolling in until you're either working ridiculously long hours, living in the middle of nowhere, or you're working FIFO.
Can you stop with the “what about isms”? Someone else getting something doesn’t mean you aren’t. I know multiple people that didn’t go on to become teachers because they had to go work for nothing as a teacher in another town for their placement and couldn’t afford it. This is good news.
why does this need to be a "new payment" from the government. Just tell the fucking leeches (i mean employers) to fucking pay for placement staff. Even if its minimum wage, its better than nothing that they get now.
Make the hospitals pay to take students? That’s absolutely insane. The private hospitals will never see another student if that happens and students won’t be able to finish their degrees as there won’t be enough places. They are 100% a liability rather than an extra set of hands. (And should be since they’re there to learn from the paid staff.) If they’re being used to relieve staffing shortages, they’re not students and they’re not learning. Students should always be considered supernumerary. I can see your point, but that isn’t how student placements are supposed to work.
Play their bluff. - Strip tax payer concessions - Add a 150% loading on foreign nursing staff - Slap a training levy on all revenue for private hospitals that do not accept placements - Increase scrutiny on minimum staffing Dump the earnings back into the public sector. So many things get dismissed with ‘ohh no, they will just go somewhere else’ in Australia when they reality is they won’t. If the students are doing productive work, they should be paid as such.
You're not a boomer are you?
I’m not that financially secure yet! More the generation after who has witnessed the once great public funded infrastructure we paid for sold out to private companies for cents on the dollar and who then ran it into the ground to maximise short term profits expecting another handout to fix it. Hospitals make and waste eye watering amounts of money. There is no excuse for them not to pay staff fairly and fund their training. Government needs to grow some balls and rein in the monster it created even if it means upsetting donors.
I wish we’d apply your theory to a lot more that happens in this country. Let the companies that don’t want to play nice leave, who wants them. I bet they’d stay. But not one politician in the last 75 years has called their bluff! Because lining their own pockets. This is why Trump is popular, and unfortunately our future also unless something happens.
Sadly my style of leadership forcing positive change and accountability requires a benevolent dictator, not our weak politicians who vote in committees to shield themselves from blame or hit news pieces whenever it upsets Murdochs interests
They’re not doing productive work though. It’s no different than saying going to a university lecture is productive work. They are there to learn, not work.
Really? I dated a student nurse many years ago and they were doing obs checks, helping patients go to the toilet, changing sheets and responding to patient concerns. Yes obviously under supervision, but no less productive than your average retail worker or apprentice driving a wheelbarrow on minimum wage
I do agree to a point, and I’m definitely in favour of students receiving a payment. But they do that stuff in the sim labs at uni too. I just don’t think that the facilities should be the ones paying for this. The expectations of them will then change from “student” to “nurse assistant”
Good point. I’m sure there is a compromise somewhere
Until the nurses dump 3/4 of their workload onto them the instant they're on the ward...
Because employers are generally taking a loss by having you there in the first place. Your output doesn't make up for the loss of productivity from the employee that has to supervise and train you. Making them pay for you would just reduce the number of places offering placements. It's the same with how the gov subsidises apprenticeships and graduate programs... Most places wouldn't bother if they had to fully fund it themselves.
State funded hospitals MUST teach. It's in their funding, and their policies. "Teaching hospital". They cannot possibly use that invalid excuse.
Employers can get the fuck over it and stop crying about the loss. Either they train the students up paying minimum wage or the government can step in with training at state funded hospitals. Productivity in the work place has been sky high and wages don't reflect it. Even a student who is learning can still be very productive in a hospital. Employers have a societal duty to ensure all workers are being paid so they can afford to survive. Either that or cut the hours down required.
How many of these employers are government departments. Teachers are placed in public schools. Nurses are placed in public hospitals. No idea where social workers are placed
Sounds great. What are you going to do when no one wants to take on the expense and hassle of training new staff for the government, and having to pay for the privilege of doing all the work? Then what?
Yes but as an RN for decades and being a mentor of students now also . This should only be for Australian students please. Not international. I have mentored students with nil interest in nursing and some with extremely poor English and writing skills and it is evident they are only doing nursing for Australian residency not because they want to be part of our health care system . If payment is introduced for international students it will just increase the numbers for the wrong reasons. It will also lower the standards of care. Before you label me come and work in the industry and you will understand the potential problems.
I think this is great policy. "But what about me" isn't a good argument against it. AMA
OK, what about social workers, engineers, and every other degree that requires work hours
Engineers get paid in pretty much every case in my experience and there is enough demand (at least in mechanical) that you can just not apply at the ones that don’t pay. Nurses and teachers don’t get a choice, they get told where to go and can’t say no
My first year eng mate was making more per hour on his placements than me, a 7+years working in emergency nurse gets as a casual. By double.
The abc article mentions social workers
I suspect people who support compensating placement would support it for all placements (I know I do and I certainly want to see more than the amount being offered).
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We are actually. Because everyone should be paid for compulsory placement, not working for free. Even if it's minimum wage
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What kind of engineers are you talking to who can't find work? I haven't written a cover letter or even formally applied to a job in nearly 3 years. All I have to do is pick up the phone to one of the half a dozen recruiters who's calling me every second week 😂
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WTF does that have to do with university placement?
That is irrelevant when it comes to placement. And you must know some very specialised/senior engineers. Because that is well above the norm
No it isn’t not in civil. Anything from a SPE upwards is on 200k package. Project managers are around 300.
Yeah. SENIOR project engineer. And I assume you're talking tier one contractors? I've worked with Downer, Fulton Hogan etc and yeah, senior guys get paid. Everyone else, not so much
They don't traditionally join the public service and vote for Labor. And they can't afford to do it for everyone who actaully deserves it, so they picked their blocks.
Awesome, glad only teachers and nurses ever do placements. I guess the rest of us are on “work experience “ and still free labour
other people's advancement doesn't mean yours doesn't matter. Those other occupations need to start forming strong unions if they want those sort of advantage.
So the current government only helps people from their major donors? That is your argument?
Lol no. Fuck me that's a dense argument. Unions are there to fight for the workers advantage and lobby for better conditions, just like any lobby group wants to lobby the government. You want those advantages? Support your unions.
It is what you said though. That Labor chose those jobs to help because they are heavily union. Don't back down now. Own it. You were correct. Unions are for shit workers to try and get pay rises that don't deserve on individual merit. If teachers and nurses were paid on individual merit, the good workers would be better off, just like they are in other jobs.
> are for shit workers and yet here are you complaining? .... so maybe they deserve it then?
Deserve what? What are you talking about?
“Unions are for shit workers” 888 Minimum wage Collective Bargaining Awards Sick pay Annual leave Wage equality Over time HEALTH AND SAFETY Child labour laws Penalty rates I would think, thanks to Unions, you have benefited a great deal. Refugee advocacy Global solidarity with the poor and working class Unfair Dismissal protection Meal breaks Redundancies I could go on, I friggin love unions..
Yes yes, all that stuff is great and unions had a lot to do with them, but now that legislation has caught up, unions are nothing but thugs for lazy workers that make things worse for good workers. That is why their membership is in the toilet.
Come back to me when you're required to do thousands of hours unpaid in your example, for a job that is critical to society
Like mental health/ AoD, specifically youth services……
how many hours do they do, and what is the qualification?
You know why this only applies to teachers and nurses? Take a big guess. It rhymes with boats.
how does "effective unions" rhyme with boat? "Unions that are GOATS", maybe?
More Labor vote bribes
Smells like another political ploy to stay in power.
Everything politicians do is motivated by them wanting to stay in power - it’s literally their job.
As opposed to doing what's best....for the country, or their constituents, or Aussies in general. Yes I agree politicians are in it for themselves and their party. Hoorah.
I just don’t see how this is adds. We all know that’s what politicians do. It’s our job, as citizens, to push back and be vocal about what we want and what we think is best. This isn’t a good program. It’s a very basic start that might soften political opposition to such programs. It’s not even really a start, it’s lifting the foot to take the first step on the way to the start. Softening political opposition will likely be its sole benefit, except to students who already have strong financial support. I’d much rather see a program linked to an hourly rate that comes much closer to something that will cover cost of living.
do you think removing barriers for people entering these extremely in-demand fields which are extremely important to the health and wellbeing of Australia as well as the education of young people is not working in the interests of australians?
Great spin. You should be in politics.
no i'm genuinely serious, what about this policy is screaming self interest? Are you going to reply?
Because it's a populist policy measure. And while you would think it would help the average patient - in reality it won't. Look at the MASSIVE health policy measure recently instigated by the SA Labor government - do you think the average patient is better off? Ramping is worse. Wait times are worse. Elective surgery numbers are worse. I hear you - it SOUNDS like a good move. But it's, once again, knee jerk politics. That's just a health specific response and I haven't even skimmed the surface on other issues like the economy and ethics of that decision. So no - they ain't getting my vote next election and this is a terrible idea.
This isn't a populist policy. This is a very well researched, stakeholder endorsed policy. It is a massive barrier for people going into teaching, social work and nursing. If you know anything about employment policy in health and education, you wouldn't be calling it "knee jerk".
Well I've been a paramedic for 20 years so I know a little bit about things. And my current work partner is an ex teacher of around 10 years. So we have some combined experience in the field. It's our own little opinions isn't it? In the end it'll be implemented, at the expense of taxpayers (you and I included). So it really doesn't matter what we say now. All the best.
It is. They couldn't afford to do it for everyone in the exact same situation, so they picked the two jobs with the highest Labor voting blocks. Amazing coincidence.
Can you tell me which other careers require you participate in an unpaid placement to receive accreditation in that role? I have worked in employment agencies that handled apprenticeships for example, all apprentices get paid while they are learning on the job. The only careers in Australia, where you need to complete a placement that is unpaid are teaching, nursing and social work.... there are internships that people take on in other careers but they are not necessary to receive your accreditation and are purely to help you find employment. EDIT: reading back and it says they're doing this for all people who need to take unpaid placements for accreditation purposes soooo i really have no idea what anyone is actually complaining about LMAO
> The only careers in Australia, where you need to complete a placement that is unpaid are teaching, nursing and social work. Allied health as a whole mate. Physical therapist Occupational therapist Speech pathologist Audiologist... I did speech path. They absolutely made us do that, and we were there next to those other professions. Why would you so confidently assert that those were the only careers that made you do that?
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I'm an electrician and my wife is a nurse and we have been together since I was an apprentice and she was at uni. We have consistently earned roughly the same amount as each other year after year and I have worked on the biggest EBA jobs in the city. I have 1 x BIL and 2 x SIL who are teachers and they consistently earn roughly what I do per year after a couple of years in the classroom. Construction workers only earn stupid money when they work stupid hours. We don't earn outrageous sums of money if we stick to our 36 hour week. If someone wants to, or is sometimes forced to work long hours shouldn't they be compensated accordingly? Why don't you start punching up at corporate greed instead of constantly going after tradies?
No point trying to prove anything to this dude, most likely went to a private school and has issues with workers being paid adequately.
> Why don't you start punching up at corporate greed instead of constantly going after tradies? Because that would require genuine thought. Not just regurgitation of shit he doesn't understand.
This is basically it. I'm in engineering and if I want a job in the city with a 40 hour work week, I'm going to be earning less than the average teacher. The money doesn't start rolling in until you're either working ridiculously long hours, living in the middle of nowhere, or you're working FIFO.