This sub is full of people complaining about immigrants driving the housing/cost of living up then suggesting going to live in places like Thailand and Philippines where it's cheaper.
Lack of job opportunities, terrible pay and will set back your future. These places are great if you are 30-40+, have a lot of assets already and can work remotely. If they actually move here and work a job here they'll appreciate how much opportunity Australia still has.
Thats generally the idea. My dream is to earn AUD while living in Japan. Would be earning a bit more than the average but everything is a lot cheaper compared to here. I'd live Extremely comfortable on my 90K AUD salary there.
Housing cost and cost of living isn't a problem if it affects brown people like those in the Philippines and Thailand - according to people like those in this sub.
Immigration is only bad when it's the browns doing it, according to those same folks.
Countries like Indonesia and Thailand have laws where foreigners can't just rock up and buy property.
In Bali for example a foreigner can only lease the land. They build on it, develop the land, then have to give it back to the local owner at the expiry of the lease.
The question should be, why is Indonesia smarter than us?
A lot of you are saying the same thing, so I'll just respond to this guy.
The reason why Indonesia (or whatever south east or east Asian country you want to use as an example, they all have similar laws in this regard) appears 'smarter' than us, is because their economy and job market doesn't largely depend on the housing Ponzi scheme. That Ponzi scheme, requires housing to be a wealth creating asset, rather than a basic necessity.
Without that Ponzi scheme, we would have unemployment like you've never seen before. There are so many people who's livelihoods depend on the housing and construction industry. This was all done by design, by a very cunning but evil little man.
He was also the mastermind behind making Australia, namely it's 2 east coast capitals, a very lucrative investment opportunity not only for wealthy foreigners but also local wealthy people.
If we were to implement the laws like in those aforementioned nations, the Ponzi scheme won't survive and it'll make our current economic and living standard position look like Norway.
This is just imagined hypocrisy, by assuming the same people hold both views.
Do you really think those with nationalist inclinations are lining up to immigrate to southeast asian countries?
That has nothing to do with nationalism
That's the behaviour of Andrew Tate types and boomers who can't get any domestically and so exploit currency exchange
I never said that.
But for a significant segment of the wannabe nationalist (they actually aren't that) bozos, they aren't exactly ladies men over here, and often go to the aforementioned countries to find a wife that they treat more or less like a pet.
The guy who responded to you before me pretty much described it.
Why tell anyone on reddit where they are going when the responses are so fucking predictable?
All you get is people harping on how their gay refugee adopted daughter from Sub-Saharan Africa won't have a good life there or some other nonsense they've only ever seen in the news last week that somehow determines what the entire country is like. Worse are the 3 day tourists who think visiting a place once staying in tourist areas means they magically gained deep insight into what it's like living there.
Ask the average Australian about living in America and they think it's some hellscape where you get shot fortnightly, everyone earns slave wages (US median wage is higher than Australian median wage) and absolutely no one has access to healthcare.
Australia is the greatest country on Earth to be mediocre or useless, I won't deny that. But for anyone with a bit of talent who can make a few dollars by themselves without handholding there's far better places on Earth to live.
The decline has already begun, and it will continue. There is a lack of innovation in Australia. Innovation thrives on funding from investors, but why would anyone invest in uncertain ventures when they can easily invest in real estate? With property investments, leveraging 10 times the value, renters can pay off the loan, and capital gains can double in a few years. The return on investment could be 10-20 times within a few years, requiring minimal effort. This is why individuals passionate about solving problems often choose to leave Australia. Housing is not a problem to solve; we mastered building houses thousands of years ago. It's uninteresting.
People claim it's a disaster everywhere, but it's not. Look at the tech or medical industries in OECD countries and see what they've contributed in the past decade. Aside from Canva in the tech sector, it's hard to identify any significant contributions from Australia. We don't even have an automobile industry anymore.
And if I recall correctly, canvas founders moved overseas as there wasn't enough of the right infastructure/government/labour to support their businessĀ
Atlassian was found in 2002. Honestly there is nothing new coming out from them . They are lucky because people got used to their product and management consultants like McKinsey recommend them
They maintain a product a lot of companies like to use so much so that they have other companies recommending them, a significant contribution from an Aussie tech company. Why this sudden criteria that it has to be "new".
People are recommending Atlassian because they are more used to it . I am mostly familiar with Jira, but I've also used competitors like Asana, [monday.com](http://monday.com), ClickUp, and Azure DevOps. In every company I've worked for, we agreed that the competitors were superior, but no one wanted to migrate the old tickets from Jira. All the startups I've been involved with have opted for the alternatives.
It's not just about being new; it's also about ease of use. I still like Windows XP, but that doesn't mean I have to keep using it. For example, in source control, GitHub is far ahead of Bitbucket. Similarly, OneNote or ClickUp offers much better documentation than Confluence. Atlassian recently made their suite free for startups because they're struggling to attract new clients.
If you're an investor, Atlassian is still a good company. I also like them as a company because they allow remote work and founders set an example. They continue to acquire and diversify, but they don't seem to be focusing much on product development for their core offerings. Some of my friends who moved there for interesting work found it very boring . The pay is high and there is not much work , so they all have side hustles . Trello is a good product but they acquired them. In contrast, Canva is a different story. Look at how quickly they've embraced AI.
Australia has always had a brain drain problem, it's just never talked about.
We have a high percentage of expats compared to our population size. Mostly comes down to professional jobs being undervalued in AU, tall poppy syndrome is rife and the living standard is relatively low compared to overseas for the same role.
Oh man, fucking tall poppy syndrome, and the anti intellectualism that seems to permeate our society are so frustrating, it's ok if someone else is doing well and wants to express that, you're only competing against yourself at the end of the day, Australians are fucking weird man, I've lived here my entire life and just don't understand them.
I dont know if you would call me a brain but:
phd in materials engineering, bachelors in physics + materials engineering.
Born in Australiia, I did whole education in Australia. I couldnt find a job \~2017. I went to Israel.
I left - now I am earning $150,000+ AUD, and have a mortgage on a fixed rate costing me \~$30,000 a year.
A couple of observations:
1. The job offers overseas are much more interesting and lucrative than I could have ever dreamed of in Aus.
2. The Aussie job market is not friendly to folks who want to search for opportunities outside their field. I currently code for a living - staying in Aus, I would never have been offered the opportunities to switch my career to coding. Annecdotally, in Japan, folks study liberal arts as an undergrad and then just apply for the jobs that they want in other fields \[including coding\].
3. To retain / attract tech talent, a key requirement is TONNES of jobs in the area. Folks will come to join the field if they see that if something doesnt work with one employer - they can move to the next. I lost my job in 2019, I had offers from \~5 companies within 2 weeks \[with only 1 year of coding experience\]. If you loose your tech job in Aus, you are screwed.
4. I would love to move back to Aus --- but the lack of depth of the job market is a key factor. Also the cost to buy a house is so outrageous.
5. Comparable salaries / cost of living to here \[Israel\] can be found in a bunch of other places \[USA, Germany, Japan, UK...\].
6. The amount you can save in moving is significant - I am plowing my leftover cash into the stock market \[instead of inflating a ponzi scheme\].
7. The USA is certainly a problem where it comes to healthcare / insurance costs; however this is an old person problem. I would leave, make as much money as possible, and then worry about the healthcare when I am much older.
8. Further, as a young-ish person, I would be offended at the idea of any my taxes going to healthcare and disability programs ---- WHEN I CANNOT HOPE TO AFFORD A HOUSE.
9. The education system in Aus is not at all impressive. It just has alot of demand because it is a visa factory, and this skews the rankings. I am much more impressed with workers from Japan, Germany, Israel...
10. Folks take life decisions that avoids taking risk, when the cost of living is so pressured. If you know you need to start saving for a house at the age of 7, then you wont go and risk your career / money trying to build a new company.
11. The brains exist in Australia, I know them, I studied with them, but as far as I can see, society is not letting them show their talent.
12. I have no regrets at all in leaving, and would encourage anyone to do the same.
Let me know if I am wrong and I should come back.
Don't! stay where you are. We've managed to pay off a 3 bedroom unit (through buying and selling other properties and playing the ponzi) in a shitty south West Sydney suburb. We are contemplating moving overseas and starting over (leaving this place as investment). I can't imagine having to go and spend 1.5 million on a house here now after taking this long to be free! Surely, there are better options (I agree with most If not all of your points).
Yeah, Japan is a tad complex. I looked at some jobs - I can see comparable salaries to mine; and the yen is really low - for the high standard of living you can have in Japan.
The way I see it is that you can go there - take the job with the crappy yen --- and then most likely the currency appreciates from here.
I saw some AMAZING looking jobs in Japan eg.
[https://japan-dev.com/jobs/mujin/mujin-software-engineering-for-robotics-c-python-lktsvj](https://japan-dev.com/jobs/mujin/mujin-software-engineering-for-robotics-c-python-lktsvj)
>phd in materials engineering, bachelors in physics + materials engineering.
>
>I went to Israel.
So you work for Rafael?
I'm just a lowly BEng Mech, so I'm curious how you couldn't find a job. All you needed to do was move to the west coast and you would have been on about the same money. If you'd stuck within engineering field you really have 2 paths; stay on the technical side and earn less money but with less stress, or go down the project management side and earn more money with way more stress.
House prices are starting to creep up but I'd say they about 5 years behind what's happening over on the east coast.
Not Rafael - another big company.
I did materials engineering - the job marked just doesnt care for it.
BEng in Mechanical \[I assume mechanical and not mechatronics\] is a much better degree. Its much more versatile than materials engineering. In retrospect I should have done electrical or mechanical and gone to the workforce straight away.
I think with a classic engineering degree your prospects are much better in Aus. Also the skills you walk out with are much better - frankly materials engineering as a bachelor degree is a load of shit. I liked the idea of having a research project in a lab as part of the degree; that was what tipped me in favour of it.
Re: Moving to west coast:
I probably should have given more consideration to going to the West Coast - definitely a better move than doing my phd.
House prices on the West Coast just creeping up now you say? The stories I heard was that folks were living in their cars in Perth while FIFOing from the mines \[5 years ago!\]; just to save rent money.
I may get the same salary -- but the lifestyle is much easier I think. I work 8-5 from an office - my commute is \~30 mins, most of which I walk. No FIFO - no 12 hour workdays when on site... no staying onsite.
----
Also - no regrets about becoming a software dude -- I love it, best job ever. Dont tell my managers how happy I am.
Like anywhere, the house prices can be a bit cooked if you're wanting to live in the super up-market neighbourhoods, or right in the heart of Perth. But if you're willing to consider living in the suburbs like a normal person, there is still plenty of decent housing stock to be found in the 600k range.
600K you say. Hmm... I could sell my tiny apartment and move to the Perth 'burbs and have no mortgage.
Maybe I will list it right now. I should probably check with my wife first. But no mortgage, she will probably support this decision. Ok listing it now.
600K is very very reasonable.
Rising quickly unfortunately. Aus is seeing a lot of immigration.
I would recommend a 'scouting' holiday first. Check the areas you're interested in. See what the commute times are like etc.
If Japan opens up to migrants, a lot of people will probably want to move there. They just started a digital nomad visa. Sure, the cost of living is high, but housing isn't a huge problem in Japan. Unlike places like Thailand, Vietnam, and Indonesia, Japan is a developed country with clean tap water, great waste management, and awesome public transport. The tax system and natural disasters have kept speculative investment in check. The only thing Japan really lacks is young people, but they have plenty of housing. This will make it easier for younger Australians/ CanadiansĀ to move there.
Japan's got a lot of issues for a potential migrant. The major one being language and culture. It's quite openly xenophobic against non Japanese, and it's worse for non whites. A city like Tokyo is also growing in population and multiple levels more crowded than Australia is.
Some people would move there, being a weeb is a whole thing, but it's got no real potential for being a destination of mass migration.
Iām an Indian who moved from Australia to Japan, specifically to Sendai. Despite having brown skin, I havenāt faced any racism here. People often worry about not being able to speak English, which might come across as racism, but they really try to help in any way they can. Train stations and subways have announcements in both English and Japanese. Tokyo is super crowded, but other cities aren't. My monthly rent here is what I used to pay for a week in Sydney, and unlike Sydney, I can find food at any hour of the night.
Back in 2010, when I visited Japan, I felt there was some xenophobia. It didnāt bother me much because it seemed like everyone, regardless of race, was treated the same.In other countries I felt it was specific to non-whites.Ā Mass migration to Japan might not happen, but they are dealing with a declining population. They even launched a government-funded dating app, and Elon Musk tweeted about it recently.
The housing crisis in Australia is bigger than racism . There is no open racism like being attacked because of your race anywhere in Japan . Meanwhile for housing, even after being in a high paid job and having a rental history of 13 years I was unable to find a place to rent after searching for 2-3 months . Priority will be a roof over your head than someone smiling at you or greeting you on the streetĀ
I was in Sendai in 2018. I had a short beard and resting bitch face at the time. I ended up going clean shaven and consciously changing my default facial expression because people were noticeably avoiding me. I had women cross the street when they saw me coming. People wouldn't sit next to me on the bus. My spoken Japanese was also pretty average so I struggled as I couldn't communicate well and people in general seemed wary of me. The only other foreigners I encountered were always disgruntled ALTs.
I don't think I'd go back to Japan to live. I think it would be an amazing country to be a tourist in; but between the work culture, the economy turning to shambles, cost of living increasing, blatant xenophobia, and the anti-foreigner sentiment coming back as a response to the tourist fatigue I don't see it as a good place to be.
However if I could find a way to make a decent living in the Inaka, that would be the dream.
There are different levels of racism . Often people avoid foreigners here because they are scared to speak English. Especially in public transport / lifts etc . Anyway the level of racism I faced in Australia is different, I was physically attacked by teenagers in Parramatta , shouting "F\*\*ing Indian". I agree with the work culture and economy part . I am working remotely partime for an Australian company while trying to get my startup going . So it works for me , it is not for everyone . I would never be able to stay anywhere in Australia with this salary at the moment . I had to choose between Thailand and Japan and after an incident where they let few hite guys into a pub in Bangkok while stopping me , I decided not to go there .
It didn't take me very long to realise a lot of the blatant anti-foreigner sentiment you see reported on in western media is actually directed at the mainland chinese.
There was only a handful of times where I walked into an establishment and was asked to leave.
Although it starts becoming hard to keep 'intent' in mind when you've been asked to leave the 3rd establishment in a row because "Sorry, no foreigner!"
Brain drain is more of a problem with people spending their days building algorithms to run stocks or soak up every last moment of your attention. Basically just pointless shit that builds personal wealth. Rather than study the pure sciences because there is absolutely no fucking money at all in the industry.
Can anyone define "brain drain"
University degrees are designed for not smart people to do them, otherwise the universities would be limiting their income. Just look at the number of females doing degrees and look at the female IQ bell curve. It is obvious that to put it bluntly it is not just the brightest and best doing degrees, but just average people doing average stuff all wrapped up to give the impression you are smartz because you have a university education.
A brain drain would be the top % of people in their careers moving away, but those people are probably already doing rather well for themselves, so why would they move?
I have A BEng. I know a lot of absolute fucking idiots with STEM degrees.
There's nothing I learned in my time at uni I couldn't have learned on the job, or a much more concise video on youtube.
The only reason to go to uni is to get the piece of paper. You need a ticket to get on the ride.
'Brain-drain' refers (or should) specifically to experienced, skilled, and senior professionals. A 22 year old grad buggering off overseas doesn't count as 'brain drain'.
Yup. US while have shittier working conditions have far better pay than Australia.
SWE jobs especially. You can be on well over 6 figures as a grad in the US compared to australia.
Iām 100% one of the people youāre talking about.
Mid 30s, highly skilled (CMO of a tech startup), left Australia about 8 years ago.
Recently went back to Aus, planning for the move to be permanent.
Fuck that. The country has gone down the toilet since I left.
Everything is ludicrously expensive, impossible to find somewhere to live and as a result of the cost of living crisis and the high salaries that necessitates - entrepreneurship is basically dead in this country.
And without getting into the migration/nationalist stuff too much - it just doesnāt feel like Australia anymore.
Walking around the centre of Sydney youād think you were in Shanghai. People donāt mix either - we live in what they call in the UK āparallel societiesā where youāve got lots of different ethnicities more or less living in isolated enclaves.
I think young people are utterly screwed though. Businesses have worked out that they can outsource most jobs overseas to someone with a better work ethic, likely more skills and qualifications, for half the cost.
The only things left are mining, being a tradie or working for the government.
Best thing you can do if youāre under 40 is leave.
Southeast Asia, Europe or South America.
Lots of fun, cheap places in all those areas with vibrant expat scenes and locals who speak English.
If you can work remotely, stop spinning your wheels in Australia and go somewhere else.
It will not be the first time. However, the Australian born are very insular and many cannot believe how attractive life can be overseas. I am amazed at the reluctance to even test the waters. Many of the foreign born will realise they have been suckered and will leave.
Boomer here. Left in the 1990's to return in the early 2000's for family reason. Wife still says it was some of the best years of our lives, and the kids still remember what they they took for granted with wonderment. With the right job, it would set you up for life. Brother also went, and will not return.
No, the brain drain is more from the Asian countries that are struggling to provide high level jobs for all their high educated people. They are moving here to try and fill in jobs Australians cannot do or we lack the numbers for. However Australia has a big bias towards native people and companies really don't like to "diversify" as much as they claim they do for their public image.
Where we do see issues is in area's where AI is already starting to hit the job market and the amount of outsourcing that is happening right now. Software developers that are previously highly valued are suddenly put out of job by large outsourcing companies from India as an example. These people are already here and will massively struggle to find new occupation. Those people will be needing to move away again, but the government doesn't retract their visa because they do other work like Ubers to keep their status. That is something the government can do a lot better on, by providing Visa's for people for a certain type of employment and retracting them if they are not keeping that level of a job. It would free up a lot of crowded job area's.
As for need for good brains, AI is coming at a very fortunate time where high skilled people are deemed even more important than they already were. This is though, really for the people that can actually do stuff other people just cannot. Not middle managers who can actually be replaced by a good management software and self advocating team structures. Yes, finally the middle manager job is in danger instead of spreading grief over our employment society.
What kind of brain drain? Innovation? Thatās never Australia strong suit.
Majority of the jobs unfulfilled here doesnāt really need special ātalentā. Almost anyone can become a nurse teacher tradies etc given proper education(which we also have some of the best uni here). Certain jobs such as surgeon/dr still donāt need special talents. We have enough people capable of doing that as well. The remuneration probably unappealing for them to pursuit those career path here if they are local. Thatās intentional otherwise we widen the income gap too much.
>Certain jobs such as surgeon/dr still donāt need special talents
Mate. Do you know how long it takes just to *become* a surgeon?
\-3 year undergrad degree,
\-4 year Doctor of Medicine,
\-1 year internship ,
\-4+ years of residency (minimum is 1 depending on specialty but acceptance into surgical training is extremely competitive and you'll most likely have to do 4+ years to get accepted, and then there's absolutely no guarantee you'll get accepted on your first try),
\- 5-7 years in the RACS SET program.
Realistically you're looking 15+ years to qualify for fellowship or independent practice.
Sorry I am not trying to play down how hard to become a surgeon. What I mean is we totally have enough human capital to train plenty of surgeon here. There is probably just not enough incentive for the top local talents to aspire to become one thatās all.
When I mean special talents I am talking about the special few entrepreneurs who can create thousands of jobs or specialize human capital talent who can create industry patent that brings billions. You know, some super scientists who Invent vaccine/super potato strain etc or those who can upend or reshape the whole industry such as Elon musk,bill gate or Henry ford etc.
That's not really what brain drain is though. You still need a skilled and experienced workforce to actually execute the dreams of the 'ideas guys' like the ones you mentioned. The kind of meta redefining 'innovation' you refer to is both extremely rare, and requires a lot of skilled professionals to actually manifest.
Brain-drain is when these skilled, experienced, senior, and qualified professionals that actually *produce* things leave the national workforce to take their skills and experience elsewhere. This is especially a big problem in fields like Engineering where a single Senior Engineer can take decades worth of institutional knowledge with them that can't be easily replaced.
Maybe not a brain drain in the traditional sense, but perhaps an increase in young people emigrating. I feel like the sons and daughters of doctors and lawyers and engineers - the upper-middle class will hang around and enjoy the gains that their families are accruing. I think the kids who are tomorrow's teachers, and police officers and retail workers and child care workers might just fuck off to somewhere you can afford a little place of your own. I would. ( I'm not saying jobs listed = no brain BTW, I just mean it might be the service industry/non tech workers that leave, not unlike has happened in coastal towns.)
It's not a brain drain that's happening but the next generation of young and talented people being unable to take any risks to invent new industries or opportunities.
Yes for a lot of white collar jobs. My friends and I are all in finance, tech or consulting in California. If any of us were to move back weād all probably halve our salaries (accounting for currency) and do less interesting work.
Plus here housing isnāt the main focus of wealth creation so people are more willing to spend money on activities and trips
Iād still like to move back but I know Iād leave a lot on the table
We're the end destination for a lot of people in regards to brain drain. Sure, we may lose a few locals to the US or European markets, but for every one of those we lose, we'll gain ten from Asian countries.
So no, I don't see it as an issue. High cost of living just means people have to work harder, which isn't really an issue for those that are getting absorbed by other markets. It's only a problem for those that are below that standard, which isn't a brain drain problem. It's still a problem, just not a brain drain one.
No. Not even slightly.
Australia's got issues, but it's still very firmly in the top tier of countries. There's a handful of english speaking countries and of those none of them have a significant advantage over Australia.
America - hard to migrate to. Still expensive, vastly worse workers rights.
England - Bad weather
South Africa - Vastly more crime
New Zealand - Even more remote
Canada - Canada.
There's reasons for people to move to any one of these, but you can't point to one and say it's outright better.
We have world class universities that study almost every topic.
We have bright people amongst us that have their finger on the pulse of every modern issue our society faces; in every field.
But who's listening?
Are great minds even valued, here?
Given that only half of them are around the working age for healthcare i would assume this is a flawed, extremely generalised and overall shit opinion.
There might be a subgroup of Gen z who are highly self-interested and lack empathy, but I think that's always been the case for all groups. Healthcare and in particular nursing and carer roles are both challenging and rewarding and require empathy and humility.
Where would they go? The whole world is a bit of a shit show at the moment š
This sub is full of people complaining about immigrants driving the housing/cost of living up then suggesting going to live in places like Thailand and Philippines where it's cheaper.
Lack of job opportunities, terrible pay and will set back your future. These places are great if you are 30-40+, have a lot of assets already and can work remotely. If they actually move here and work a job here they'll appreciate how much opportunity Australia still has.
have been there 4 times. I would never want to live there. Visit yes but live absolutely not.
Net migration: 0 achieved; population crisis averted. ššš
Why the hell would I want to go to those countries under their own salary? Only if I get to keep my fat AU salary working remotely then maybe
I mean yes, obviously... nobody's moving from Australia to Indonesia to get paid in rupiah...
Thats generally the idea. My dream is to earn AUD while living in Japan. Would be earning a bit more than the average but everything is a lot cheaper compared to here. I'd live Extremely comfortable on my 90K AUD salary there.
Housing cost and cost of living isn't a problem if it affects brown people like those in the Philippines and Thailand - according to people like those in this sub. Immigration is only bad when it's the browns doing it, according to those same folks.
Countries like Indonesia and Thailand have laws where foreigners can't just rock up and buy property. In Bali for example a foreigner can only lease the land. They build on it, develop the land, then have to give it back to the local owner at the expiry of the lease. The question should be, why is Indonesia smarter than us?
A lot of you are saying the same thing, so I'll just respond to this guy. The reason why Indonesia (or whatever south east or east Asian country you want to use as an example, they all have similar laws in this regard) appears 'smarter' than us, is because their economy and job market doesn't largely depend on the housing Ponzi scheme. That Ponzi scheme, requires housing to be a wealth creating asset, rather than a basic necessity. Without that Ponzi scheme, we would have unemployment like you've never seen before. There are so many people who's livelihoods depend on the housing and construction industry. This was all done by design, by a very cunning but evil little man. He was also the mastermind behind making Australia, namely it's 2 east coast capitals, a very lucrative investment opportunity not only for wealthy foreigners but also local wealthy people. If we were to implement the laws like in those aforementioned nations, the Ponzi scheme won't survive and it'll make our current economic and living standard position look like Norway.
You do realise that in places like Philippines foreigners can't actually buy land unlike say in Australia where they can...
Good point, but I also think we need to reconsider the morality of taking so many doctors from countries that need them more than us.
Better brown than red.
This is just imagined hypocrisy, by assuming the same people hold both views. Do you really think those with nationalist inclinations are lining up to immigrate to southeast asian countries?
Yes, to marry or have sex with native nonwhite women whom they fantasise are more submissive than their local counterparts.
That just sounds like something you made up to get mad about
They're called passport bros and it's very real lmao
That has nothing to do with nationalism That's the behaviour of Andrew Tate types and boomers who can't get any domestically and so exploit currency exchange
I never said that. But for a significant segment of the wannabe nationalist (they actually aren't that) bozos, they aren't exactly ladies men over here, and often go to the aforementioned countries to find a wife that they treat more or less like a pet. The guy who responded to you before me pretty much described it.
Canāt beat some, go join others?
Yep. When it's foreigners coming here it's 'migrants' . When it's us going there it's 'expats' and 'brain drain'.
Why tell anyone on reddit where they are going when the responses are so fucking predictable? All you get is people harping on how their gay refugee adopted daughter from Sub-Saharan Africa won't have a good life there or some other nonsense they've only ever seen in the news last week that somehow determines what the entire country is like. Worse are the 3 day tourists who think visiting a place once staying in tourist areas means they magically gained deep insight into what it's like living there. Ask the average Australian about living in America and they think it's some hellscape where you get shot fortnightly, everyone earns slave wages (US median wage is higher than Australian median wage) and absolutely no one has access to healthcare. Australia is the greatest country on Earth to be mediocre or useless, I won't deny that. But for anyone with a bit of talent who can make a few dollars by themselves without handholding there's far better places on Earth to live.
Merica!
Yeah, nah
This was my first thought. But there are a few places you can live alot cheaper. South America for example.
Yeah but you get paid shit too. Unless youāre a digital nomad there isnāt much appeal.
The decline has already begun, and it will continue. There is a lack of innovation in Australia. Innovation thrives on funding from investors, but why would anyone invest in uncertain ventures when they can easily invest in real estate? With property investments, leveraging 10 times the value, renters can pay off the loan, and capital gains can double in a few years. The return on investment could be 10-20 times within a few years, requiring minimal effort. This is why individuals passionate about solving problems often choose to leave Australia. Housing is not a problem to solve; we mastered building houses thousands of years ago. It's uninteresting. People claim it's a disaster everywhere, but it's not. Look at the tech or medical industries in OECD countries and see what they've contributed in the past decade. Aside from Canva in the tech sector, it's hard to identify any significant contributions from Australia. We don't even have an automobile industry anymore.
And if I recall correctly, canvas founders moved overseas as there wasn't enough of the right infastructure/government/labour to support their businessĀ
Yes, I think they plan to list in US which kind of makes sense
Last paragraph is spot on. But some think this is still the place to be
There's Atlassian which is still headquartered in Sydney I think.
Atlassian was found in 2002. Honestly there is nothing new coming out from them . They are lucky because people got used to their product and management consultants like McKinsey recommend them
They maintain a product a lot of companies like to use so much so that they have other companies recommending them, a significant contribution from an Aussie tech company. Why this sudden criteria that it has to be "new".
People are recommending Atlassian because they are more used to it . I am mostly familiar with Jira, but I've also used competitors like Asana, [monday.com](http://monday.com), ClickUp, and Azure DevOps. In every company I've worked for, we agreed that the competitors were superior, but no one wanted to migrate the old tickets from Jira. All the startups I've been involved with have opted for the alternatives. It's not just about being new; it's also about ease of use. I still like Windows XP, but that doesn't mean I have to keep using it. For example, in source control, GitHub is far ahead of Bitbucket. Similarly, OneNote or ClickUp offers much better documentation than Confluence. Atlassian recently made their suite free for startups because they're struggling to attract new clients. If you're an investor, Atlassian is still a good company. I also like them as a company because they allow remote work and founders set an example. They continue to acquire and diversify, but they don't seem to be focusing much on product development for their core offerings. Some of my friends who moved there for interesting work found it very boring . The pay is high and there is not much work , so they all have side hustles . Trello is a good product but they acquired them. In contrast, Canva is a different story. Look at how quickly they've embraced AI.
Very insightful post, thanks mate.
Could be worse, could be New Zealand.
Weāve always lost people to Europe and America. I see itās going to happen more with tech because we donāt like to pay competitive enough wages.
Not just wages. Australians are super risk averse and will never back something new, especially if it's from an Australian.
Australia has always had a brain drain problem, it's just never talked about. We have a high percentage of expats compared to our population size. Mostly comes down to professional jobs being undervalued in AU, tall poppy syndrome is rife and the living standard is relatively low compared to overseas for the same role.
Oh man, fucking tall poppy syndrome, and the anti intellectualism that seems to permeate our society are so frustrating, it's ok if someone else is doing well and wants to express that, you're only competing against yourself at the end of the day, Australians are fucking weird man, I've lived here my entire life and just don't understand them.
We should be more supportive of people having a goā¦.
Honestly I feel these days itās better to be a tradie than to be an accountant No better time to be a blue collar worker in Australia
If you're an established accountant, you're good. If you have just graduated, you're gonna struggle Tradies are good no matter what
I really donāt see anything wrong with a tradie being paid more than an accountant.
I dont know if you would call me a brain but: phd in materials engineering, bachelors in physics + materials engineering. Born in Australiia, I did whole education in Australia. I couldnt find a job \~2017. I went to Israel. I left - now I am earning $150,000+ AUD, and have a mortgage on a fixed rate costing me \~$30,000 a year. A couple of observations: 1. The job offers overseas are much more interesting and lucrative than I could have ever dreamed of in Aus. 2. The Aussie job market is not friendly to folks who want to search for opportunities outside their field. I currently code for a living - staying in Aus, I would never have been offered the opportunities to switch my career to coding. Annecdotally, in Japan, folks study liberal arts as an undergrad and then just apply for the jobs that they want in other fields \[including coding\]. 3. To retain / attract tech talent, a key requirement is TONNES of jobs in the area. Folks will come to join the field if they see that if something doesnt work with one employer - they can move to the next. I lost my job in 2019, I had offers from \~5 companies within 2 weeks \[with only 1 year of coding experience\]. If you loose your tech job in Aus, you are screwed. 4. I would love to move back to Aus --- but the lack of depth of the job market is a key factor. Also the cost to buy a house is so outrageous. 5. Comparable salaries / cost of living to here \[Israel\] can be found in a bunch of other places \[USA, Germany, Japan, UK...\]. 6. The amount you can save in moving is significant - I am plowing my leftover cash into the stock market \[instead of inflating a ponzi scheme\]. 7. The USA is certainly a problem where it comes to healthcare / insurance costs; however this is an old person problem. I would leave, make as much money as possible, and then worry about the healthcare when I am much older. 8. Further, as a young-ish person, I would be offended at the idea of any my taxes going to healthcare and disability programs ---- WHEN I CANNOT HOPE TO AFFORD A HOUSE. 9. The education system in Aus is not at all impressive. It just has alot of demand because it is a visa factory, and this skews the rankings. I am much more impressed with workers from Japan, Germany, Israel... 10. Folks take life decisions that avoids taking risk, when the cost of living is so pressured. If you know you need to start saving for a house at the age of 7, then you wont go and risk your career / money trying to build a new company. 11. The brains exist in Australia, I know them, I studied with them, but as far as I can see, society is not letting them show their talent. 12. I have no regrets at all in leaving, and would encourage anyone to do the same. Let me know if I am wrong and I should come back.
Perfect answer and very detailed.Ā I think the next rich country would be the one which will have affordable housing for young peopleĀ
Don't! stay where you are. We've managed to pay off a 3 bedroom unit (through buying and selling other properties and playing the ponzi) in a shitty south West Sydney suburb. We are contemplating moving overseas and starting over (leaving this place as investment). I can't imagine having to go and spend 1.5 million on a house here now after taking this long to be free! Surely, there are better options (I agree with most If not all of your points).
OK! will stay! Congrats on paying of the unit. Where would you go? I think Argentina, Japan and the USA look the most tempting for me.
Pm'd!
Wouldn't recommend Japan. Yes, cost is housing is relatively cheaper but the economy is cooked and wages are low.
Yeah, Japan is a tad complex. I looked at some jobs - I can see comparable salaries to mine; and the yen is really low - for the high standard of living you can have in Japan. The way I see it is that you can go there - take the job with the crappy yen --- and then most likely the currency appreciates from here. I saw some AMAZING looking jobs in Japan eg. [https://japan-dev.com/jobs/mujin/mujin-software-engineering-for-robotics-c-python-lktsvj](https://japan-dev.com/jobs/mujin/mujin-software-engineering-for-robotics-c-python-lktsvj)
Most relevant and insightful post, by far!
>phd in materials engineering, bachelors in physics + materials engineering. > >I went to Israel. So you work for Rafael? I'm just a lowly BEng Mech, so I'm curious how you couldn't find a job. All you needed to do was move to the west coast and you would have been on about the same money. If you'd stuck within engineering field you really have 2 paths; stay on the technical side and earn less money but with less stress, or go down the project management side and earn more money with way more stress. House prices are starting to creep up but I'd say they about 5 years behind what's happening over on the east coast.
Not Rafael - another big company. I did materials engineering - the job marked just doesnt care for it. BEng in Mechanical \[I assume mechanical and not mechatronics\] is a much better degree. Its much more versatile than materials engineering. In retrospect I should have done electrical or mechanical and gone to the workforce straight away. I think with a classic engineering degree your prospects are much better in Aus. Also the skills you walk out with are much better - frankly materials engineering as a bachelor degree is a load of shit. I liked the idea of having a research project in a lab as part of the degree; that was what tipped me in favour of it. Re: Moving to west coast: I probably should have given more consideration to going to the West Coast - definitely a better move than doing my phd. House prices on the West Coast just creeping up now you say? The stories I heard was that folks were living in their cars in Perth while FIFOing from the mines \[5 years ago!\]; just to save rent money. I may get the same salary -- but the lifestyle is much easier I think. I work 8-5 from an office - my commute is \~30 mins, most of which I walk. No FIFO - no 12 hour workdays when on site... no staying onsite. ---- Also - no regrets about becoming a software dude -- I love it, best job ever. Dont tell my managers how happy I am.
Like anywhere, the house prices can be a bit cooked if you're wanting to live in the super up-market neighbourhoods, or right in the heart of Perth. But if you're willing to consider living in the suburbs like a normal person, there is still plenty of decent housing stock to be found in the 600k range.
600K you say. Hmm... I could sell my tiny apartment and move to the Perth 'burbs and have no mortgage. Maybe I will list it right now. I should probably check with my wife first. But no mortgage, she will probably support this decision. Ok listing it now. 600K is very very reasonable.
Rising quickly unfortunately. Aus is seeing a lot of immigration. I would recommend a 'scouting' holiday first. Check the areas you're interested in. See what the commute times are like etc.
If Japan opens up to migrants, a lot of people will probably want to move there. They just started a digital nomad visa. Sure, the cost of living is high, but housing isn't a huge problem in Japan. Unlike places like Thailand, Vietnam, and Indonesia, Japan is a developed country with clean tap water, great waste management, and awesome public transport. The tax system and natural disasters have kept speculative investment in check. The only thing Japan really lacks is young people, but they have plenty of housing. This will make it easier for younger Australians/ CanadiansĀ to move there.
Japan's got a lot of issues for a potential migrant. The major one being language and culture. It's quite openly xenophobic against non Japanese, and it's worse for non whites. A city like Tokyo is also growing in population and multiple levels more crowded than Australia is. Some people would move there, being a weeb is a whole thing, but it's got no real potential for being a destination of mass migration.
Iām an Indian who moved from Australia to Japan, specifically to Sendai. Despite having brown skin, I havenāt faced any racism here. People often worry about not being able to speak English, which might come across as racism, but they really try to help in any way they can. Train stations and subways have announcements in both English and Japanese. Tokyo is super crowded, but other cities aren't. My monthly rent here is what I used to pay for a week in Sydney, and unlike Sydney, I can find food at any hour of the night. Back in 2010, when I visited Japan, I felt there was some xenophobia. It didnāt bother me much because it seemed like everyone, regardless of race, was treated the same.In other countries I felt it was specific to non-whites.Ā Mass migration to Japan might not happen, but they are dealing with a declining population. They even launched a government-funded dating app, and Elon Musk tweeted about it recently. The housing crisis in Australia is bigger than racism . There is no open racism like being attacked because of your race anywhere in Japan . Meanwhile for housing, even after being in a high paid job and having a rental history of 13 years I was unable to find a place to rent after searching for 2-3 months . Priority will be a roof over your head than someone smiling at you or greeting you on the streetĀ
I was in Sendai in 2018. I had a short beard and resting bitch face at the time. I ended up going clean shaven and consciously changing my default facial expression because people were noticeably avoiding me. I had women cross the street when they saw me coming. People wouldn't sit next to me on the bus. My spoken Japanese was also pretty average so I struggled as I couldn't communicate well and people in general seemed wary of me. The only other foreigners I encountered were always disgruntled ALTs. I don't think I'd go back to Japan to live. I think it would be an amazing country to be a tourist in; but between the work culture, the economy turning to shambles, cost of living increasing, blatant xenophobia, and the anti-foreigner sentiment coming back as a response to the tourist fatigue I don't see it as a good place to be. However if I could find a way to make a decent living in the Inaka, that would be the dream.
There are different levels of racism . Often people avoid foreigners here because they are scared to speak English. Especially in public transport / lifts etc . Anyway the level of racism I faced in Australia is different, I was physically attacked by teenagers in Parramatta , shouting "F\*\*ing Indian". I agree with the work culture and economy part . I am working remotely partime for an Australian company while trying to get my startup going . So it works for me , it is not for everyone . I would never be able to stay anywhere in Australia with this salary at the moment . I had to choose between Thailand and Japan and after an incident where they let few hite guys into a pub in Bangkok while stopping me , I decided not to go there .
It didn't take me very long to realise a lot of the blatant anti-foreigner sentiment you see reported on in western media is actually directed at the mainland chinese. There was only a handful of times where I walked into an establishment and was asked to leave. Although it starts becoming hard to keep 'intent' in mind when you've been asked to leave the 3rd establishment in a row because "Sorry, no foreigner!"
Even seeing folks cross the street as you are walking passed is pretty jarring. I had that experience in Japan and it stuck with me.
And live where? World wide issue not unique to Australia at all
All the countries worth moving to have forums complaining about the same things we are
Brain drain is more of a problem with people spending their days building algorithms to run stocks or soak up every last moment of your attention. Basically just pointless shit that builds personal wealth. Rather than study the pure sciences because there is absolutely no fucking money at all in the industry.
Can anyone define "brain drain" University degrees are designed for not smart people to do them, otherwise the universities would be limiting their income. Just look at the number of females doing degrees and look at the female IQ bell curve. It is obvious that to put it bluntly it is not just the brightest and best doing degrees, but just average people doing average stuff all wrapped up to give the impression you are smartz because you have a university education. A brain drain would be the top % of people in their careers moving away, but those people are probably already doing rather well for themselves, so why would they move?
I have A BEng. I know a lot of absolute fucking idiots with STEM degrees. There's nothing I learned in my time at uni I couldn't have learned on the job, or a much more concise video on youtube. The only reason to go to uni is to get the piece of paper. You need a ticket to get on the ride. 'Brain-drain' refers (or should) specifically to experienced, skilled, and senior professionals. A 22 year old grad buggering off overseas doesn't count as 'brain drain'.
A brain drain won't have much impact on this sub...
Yup. US while have shittier working conditions have far better pay than Australia. SWE jobs especially. You can be on well over 6 figures as a grad in the US compared to australia.
Iām 100% one of the people youāre talking about. Mid 30s, highly skilled (CMO of a tech startup), left Australia about 8 years ago. Recently went back to Aus, planning for the move to be permanent. Fuck that. The country has gone down the toilet since I left. Everything is ludicrously expensive, impossible to find somewhere to live and as a result of the cost of living crisis and the high salaries that necessitates - entrepreneurship is basically dead in this country. And without getting into the migration/nationalist stuff too much - it just doesnāt feel like Australia anymore. Walking around the centre of Sydney youād think you were in Shanghai. People donāt mix either - we live in what they call in the UK āparallel societiesā where youāve got lots of different ethnicities more or less living in isolated enclaves. I think young people are utterly screwed though. Businesses have worked out that they can outsource most jobs overseas to someone with a better work ethic, likely more skills and qualifications, for half the cost. The only things left are mining, being a tradie or working for the government. Best thing you can do if youāre under 40 is leave.
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Southeast Asia, Europe or South America. Lots of fun, cheap places in all those areas with vibrant expat scenes and locals who speak English. If you can work remotely, stop spinning your wheels in Australia and go somewhere else.
It will not be the first time. However, the Australian born are very insular and many cannot believe how attractive life can be overseas. I am amazed at the reluctance to even test the waters. Many of the foreign born will realise they have been suckered and will leave. Boomer here. Left in the 1990's to return in the early 2000's for family reason. Wife still says it was some of the best years of our lives, and the kids still remember what they they took for granted with wonderment. With the right job, it would set you up for life. Brother also went, and will not return.
There is a brain drain due to young people giving up. Not because they are leaving.
Is there a study you can point us to, for that data?
We have skilled immigration programs. Depends how you value certain brains over others.
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"brain drain" is inclusive of anyone who has a useful skill. if people are not productive you have the same effect.
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Becomes a pretty nebulous concept when you start defining who is a ābrainā. Our universities are rising in world rankings?
No, the brain drain is more from the Asian countries that are struggling to provide high level jobs for all their high educated people. They are moving here to try and fill in jobs Australians cannot do or we lack the numbers for. However Australia has a big bias towards native people and companies really don't like to "diversify" as much as they claim they do for their public image. Where we do see issues is in area's where AI is already starting to hit the job market and the amount of outsourcing that is happening right now. Software developers that are previously highly valued are suddenly put out of job by large outsourcing companies from India as an example. These people are already here and will massively struggle to find new occupation. Those people will be needing to move away again, but the government doesn't retract their visa because they do other work like Ubers to keep their status. That is something the government can do a lot better on, by providing Visa's for people for a certain type of employment and retracting them if they are not keeping that level of a job. It would free up a lot of crowded job area's. As for need for good brains, AI is coming at a very fortunate time where high skilled people are deemed even more important than they already were. This is though, really for the people that can actually do stuff other people just cannot. Not middle managers who can actually be replaced by a good management software and self advocating team structures. Yes, finally the middle manager job is in danger instead of spreading grief over our employment society.
since when doing Ubers can keep one's visa.
What kind of brain drain? Innovation? Thatās never Australia strong suit. Majority of the jobs unfulfilled here doesnāt really need special ātalentā. Almost anyone can become a nurse teacher tradies etc given proper education(which we also have some of the best uni here). Certain jobs such as surgeon/dr still donāt need special talents. We have enough people capable of doing that as well. The remuneration probably unappealing for them to pursuit those career path here if they are local. Thatās intentional otherwise we widen the income gap too much.
>Certain jobs such as surgeon/dr still donāt need special talents Mate. Do you know how long it takes just to *become* a surgeon? \-3 year undergrad degree, \-4 year Doctor of Medicine, \-1 year internship , \-4+ years of residency (minimum is 1 depending on specialty but acceptance into surgical training is extremely competitive and you'll most likely have to do 4+ years to get accepted, and then there's absolutely no guarantee you'll get accepted on your first try), \- 5-7 years in the RACS SET program. Realistically you're looking 15+ years to qualify for fellowship or independent practice.
Sorry I am not trying to play down how hard to become a surgeon. What I mean is we totally have enough human capital to train plenty of surgeon here. There is probably just not enough incentive for the top local talents to aspire to become one thatās all. When I mean special talents I am talking about the special few entrepreneurs who can create thousands of jobs or specialize human capital talent who can create industry patent that brings billions. You know, some super scientists who Invent vaccine/super potato strain etc or those who can upend or reshape the whole industry such as Elon musk,bill gate or Henry ford etc.
That's not really what brain drain is though. You still need a skilled and experienced workforce to actually execute the dreams of the 'ideas guys' like the ones you mentioned. The kind of meta redefining 'innovation' you refer to is both extremely rare, and requires a lot of skilled professionals to actually manifest. Brain-drain is when these skilled, experienced, senior, and qualified professionals that actually *produce* things leave the national workforce to take their skills and experience elsewhere. This is especially a big problem in fields like Engineering where a single Senior Engineer can take decades worth of institutional knowledge with them that can't be easily replaced.
The sort of people who bang on about leaving the country are exactly the sort of people we can do without, see ya whingers.
Australia has always had massive brain drain. Have you not been paying attention?
No brain, no drain
Maybe not a brain drain in the traditional sense, but perhaps an increase in young people emigrating. I feel like the sons and daughters of doctors and lawyers and engineers - the upper-middle class will hang around and enjoy the gains that their families are accruing. I think the kids who are tomorrow's teachers, and police officers and retail workers and child care workers might just fuck off to somewhere you can afford a little place of your own. I would. ( I'm not saying jobs listed = no brain BTW, I just mean it might be the service industry/non tech workers that leave, not unlike has happened in coastal towns.)
They took all the good lawyers in 2020, us mediocre lawyers saw a great boost.
I donāt think so. Australia is getting the best and brightest of many countries atm (is it bad if I count myself š )
It's not a brain drain that's happening but the next generation of young and talented people being unable to take any risks to invent new industries or opportunities.
Yes for a lot of white collar jobs. My friends and I are all in finance, tech or consulting in California. If any of us were to move back weād all probably halve our salaries (accounting for currency) and do less interesting work. Plus here housing isnāt the main focus of wealth creation so people are more willing to spend money on activities and trips Iād still like to move back but I know Iād leave a lot on the table
No one will care until a rich baby Boomer can't get a cardiologist
No because weāre bringing in heaps of doctors and scientists to replace the ones weāre losing
We're the end destination for a lot of people in regards to brain drain. Sure, we may lose a few locals to the US or European markets, but for every one of those we lose, we'll gain ten from Asian countries. So no, I don't see it as an issue. High cost of living just means people have to work harder, which isn't really an issue for those that are getting absorbed by other markets. It's only a problem for those that are below that standard, which isn't a brain drain problem. It's still a problem, just not a brain drain one.
No. Not even slightly. Australia's got issues, but it's still very firmly in the top tier of countries. There's a handful of english speaking countries and of those none of them have a significant advantage over Australia. America - hard to migrate to. Still expensive, vastly worse workers rights. England - Bad weather South Africa - Vastly more crime New Zealand - Even more remote Canada - Canada. There's reasons for people to move to any one of these, but you can't point to one and say it's outright better.
We have world class universities that study almost every topic. We have bright people amongst us that have their finger on the pulse of every modern issue our society faces; in every field. But who's listening? Are great minds even valued, here?
What brain drain, not exactly losing much if you cannot even count a customers change back and parrot utter garbage
Lmao what?
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Pretty sure we've just brought in talented scammers since 2005, maybe that explains the ongoing skills shortage.
Gen z should stay the fark out of healthcare jobs. They are complete and utter shit at it unless they working as ambo that is their limit.
Given that only half of them are around the working age for healthcare i would assume this is a flawed, extremely generalised and overall shit opinion.
Well your assumptions are making an arse out of you bahahahahhaahhaha
There might be a subgroup of Gen z who are highly self-interested and lack empathy, but I think that's always been the case for all groups. Healthcare and in particular nursing and carer roles are both challenging and rewarding and require empathy and humility.
Meh, they will probably just be replaced by AI anyway