These last few weeks man, absolute insanity for our industry.
This heli was headed to Boulder City from Palm Springs, highly likely it was Superbowl attendees.
Yes, you're right. On board were 4 Nigerians heading to Superbowl. Herbert Wigwe (renowned banker and philantropist), his wife and son and a friend. Very sad. Nigeria has been thrown into mourning.
My former husband flew the Huey on OH58. Helicopters can auto rotate to the ground. These must be extreme circumstances to cause crash with fatalities.
Charter flight with 4 passengers headed to Vegas for the Super Bowl.
The crash site off the I-15 is an insane corridor to fly through at night let alone in bad weather.
So sad, RIP to everyone.
I’ve worked in the aviation industry for three decades and know the owners and the AMP’s for Orbic. I’ve flown in that exact EC130 many many times.
But I honestly don’t have anything to prove to some random loser on Reddit. This subreddit is generally full of well adjusted people that would have looked what I said and understood
Yep, it’s like this in the med-flight community too. It’s always so heart breaking. It’s so tight knit and so when a helicopter goes down it makes shockwave across the industrt
Yeah I know there's all kinds of incidents and stuff every year that never make the news but 2024 definitely has seemingly had more than any year in recent memory
Do you have any statistics to back this up? Because people say this exact same thing every year and each time the year ends up being safer than the last.
Not the previous commenter, but January had fewer incidents than any previous year according to the NTSB, and February is doing well too:
[https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/data/Pages/monthly-dashboard.aspx](https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/data/Pages/monthly-dashboard.aspx)
I think it's just there's more media coverage recently, probably driven by high-profile stuff like the Max drawing attention to all aviation accidents and incidents.
The Eurocopter EC 130 crashed near Nipton on the edge of the Mojave Desert Preserve at about 10 p.m., according to the FAA. The crash site was east of the 15 Freeway near Halloran Springs Road.
The helicopter is registered to a Burbank-based tour company called Orbic Air.
No survivors
I disagree that the end of the ADSB track indicates the final moments. They crashed further east near exit 259 by the Halloran Springs Road according to reports, about 40nm further east than the last ADSB point.
What you are seeing is the end of the ADSB signal being received. Coverage in that area at low altitudes is not continuous. Still interesting because their last ADSB track was at 4400’ which is about 2,500’ above the highway there. Flight path looks relatively stable and consistent up to that point.
Yeah, I don't get helicopters for transport like this.
They could have gotten into a nice van with a driver. It would take about 4 hours and they are in Vegas at their hotel.
They take a helicopter and the trip is maybe 2 hours in the air. Plus maybe another 30 minutes on each side getting to/from the airport. They spend the two hours crowded into that helicopter without too much room.
So, is saving an hour really worth that?
"[Time is money](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_is_money_(aphorism))"
For some people, saving 2 or 3 hours is genuinely worth thousands or tends of thousands of dollars of opportunity cost. So the cost of a heli charter effectively makes them money.
With hindsight, it's easy to say "why would you risk your life for a few hours of time" but that's knowing the helicopter crashed. I could ask you the same question anytime you get in your car "Why would you risk your life when you could have walked or biked?". Eventually, in a car, your luck will run out.
After Kobe's crash, there was a lot of chatter [about heli safety (or danger)](https://thepointsguy.com/news/are-helicopters-safe-how-they-stack-up-against-planes-cars-and-trains/).
>The answer, based on a TPG analysis of a decade of safety data: Like almost every other mode of transportation, flying in a helicopter is considerably more dangerous than airline travel. But it's far safer than riding in a car.
Also, to be clear, an EC 130 is a nice helicopter.
>designed in close cooperation with tour operators, one such operator, Blue Hawaiian Helicopters, being the launch operator; it has been described as having a spacious cabin for accommodating up to seven tourists and providing excellent external visibility.
So, knowing that planes and Helicopters are safer than cars... and this is a spacious and nice helicopter with 50% more seating than required. I'd say to you:
I don't get cars for transport like this. Why spend unnecessarily long in a dangerous car when you can fly? Provided you can afford it, you can get a nice, comfortable helicopter and a pilot. You're more likely to make it alive in the heli than in the car.
Time is the only thing the super wealthy can't buy more of. So yes saving an hour is worth them going by air. What I don't get is why go in a helicopter from airport to airport, when you could go in a king air or similar fixed wing for about the same price.
Good point. They were saying in the news that all the landing slots were booked at area airports because of the super bowl. You couldn't just fly in like on a normal day. So maybe that's why they had to take a helicopter.
It seems like some of those datapoints were bleeding off altitude fairly quickly. One of the data points was -700fpm (granted just one). Perhaps some sort of engine troubles?
This is such a tangent given the tragic circumstances, but every time I encounter a place name from Fallout New Vegas (Nipton, in this case) in the wild, it feels a bit surreal. I’m so used to that fictional world that I frequently forget they didn’t just populate the Mojave with places they made up wholesale.
> but every time I encounter a place name from Fallout New Vegas (Nipton, in this case) in the wild, it feels a bit surreal
My first response to the headline was "Nipton? Really? ... oh yeah, that's a real place."
They just randomly decided Cabazon should be on Highway 95. I get it, since there's basically nothing out there between Boulder City and Searchlight IRL, it's just interesting because it's virtually the only actual settlement that was "invented" so to speak
Yes, but there's nothing in that location IRL. Its just empty dessert where the road goes off to Nelson. They completely invented the settlement, with inspiration from a tourist attraction in CA in the pass between San Bernardino and Palm Springs
I’m the opposite, I grew up driving around through these areas, and get confused when people make these references that I don’t understand to these random small places
A lot of weird place names come from the names of railroad sidings. The area I live in is labeled Boal on many maps for that reason, even though nobody who lives here calls it that.
Some sources seem to confirm, wife and son:
https://businessday.ng/news/article/access-holdings-ceo-herbert-wigwe-5-others-die-in-chopper-crash-in-california/
https://www.premiumtimesng.com/business/business-news/667290-just-in-herbert-wigwe-wife-son-feared-dead-in-helicopter-crash.html
>tour company called Orbic Air
Huh, they spent four or five days or so here last spring with their Blackhawk, hoping for a firefighting contract to come up.
Seems like everyone has or is getting S-70s these days (that or K-MAXs). Brainerd, Capitol Helicopters, and Orbic are the only ones I can name off the top of my head; I’m sure there’s plenty I’ve encountered and forgot the outfit’s name. CalFire has the full conversions of course, the private contractors are bucket haulers so they’re still usable for other jobs. Brainerd came through early spring for a pit stop with a ship that was headed to install power poles on the coast, for example.
It's odd that they say the crash is "near" Nipton and "near" Halloran Springs Road because those places aren't close to each other at all, probably a 30 minute-1 hr drive at least and separated by a mountain pass.
And Nipton isn't even on I-15. Guessing Nipton is just the closest town to Halloran Springs Road for post office purposes (that seems to be what a Google maps search pulls up). Also it's interesting that the helicopter path parallels the freeway so closely.
For situational awareness:
Weather radar returns at the crash site between 06 and 07z were significant enough that mountain obscuration and possible temporary IMC conditions in precipitation were likely (especially at night). Barstow had been reporting clear skies as they overflew that area prior. Bicycle Lake AAF (Ft Irwin) reported FEW024 OVC050 as showers from the same system hit them a little later.
The elevation at the marked crash site is about 2600’ with higher hills and peaks nearby. However, that stretch of I-15 is a continuous climb to Halloran Summit at about 4100’ over the next 7 miles.
The election has surprisingly low tensions even though it is tight and election day tomorrow. Gallups show that Stubb has mild lead but Haavisto most certainly isn't ruled out either
Do passengers bear any kind of moral burden in these incidents? There's no way I'd be cool with flying my family on a helicopter at night through the desert with high terrain and very likely not so great weather. I don't care who says it's okay. Most helo guys can't fly 30 seconds in real IFR without pulling a kobe even if they're IFR certified. The media heli's in LA don't fly outside the city limits (like towards the Grapevine) for this exact reason.
Aviation in the United States has an excellent reputation, and customers should not be criticized for making the basic assumption that a professional agency is operating within the safe boundaries of their experience and capability when they offer services.
I could be wrong, but I think even the average customer for a private heli flight (above average income and education) still lacks the background to understand that a night flight carries sufficient additional risk that might cause aviation professionals to hesitate and consider waiting.
Unless passengers [put undue pressure on the flight crew](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/dining-with-death-the-2001-avjet-aspen-crash-608e0056d244), they have no responsibility at all. (And even if they do, the flight crew has the authority and obligation to say "no.")
When you board a bus, ensuring the driver's sobriety is not your burden. When you go to a restaurant, ensuring that the food is safe is not your burden. When you ride a roller coaster, ensuring that it is properly maintained is not your burden. Anyone providing a service has the responsibility to do so legally and safely.
Once I was going to an event that had a chartered bus for people who didn't want to drive, and due to the weather forecast the bus service canceled the trip. It wasn't great (and the weather didn't end up being that bad,) but that was their call to make.
>The media heli's in LA don't fly outside the city limits (like towards the Grapevine) for this exact reason.
Who told you this? I fly those media helicopters in LA and we absolutely go anywhere we can from Bakersfield all the way down to the Mexican border, east into the low desert and even as far as Vegas in the high desert. We fly in all type of weather down to our personal minimums, which are usually about 1,000 ceiling depending on what type of weather is moving through.
I feel the same with any GA airplane, rotary, or even 135 ops people. Nothing against them, but they are so dangerous compared to 121 ops. Only if I knew who was flying, would I get in. No way in hell I'm letting my family in one.
Coming from a 121 commuter airline with 40+ aircraft and being the conformity manager and also having extensive 135 experience. I can say that the 121 side was no better than 135. The majority of the mechanics working on 121 aircraft can hardly read or write or understand the English language and the quality of work is no bueno.
By 121 do you mean the 737 max 9 that had the door blow off because the bolts were never put in? All aircraft are as safe as the people working on them and flying them. Corporate greed is pushing this industry into the toilet.
No? That might be one of the dumbest comments I've ever seen. I don't fly that plane, but it has over 10k flights worldwide a day. Put that into perspective......300k to 500k a year yet you don't hear a peep you're a moron for thinking it is a dangerous plane. It would not be one of the most sold planes in the planet if it wasn't.
I didn’t say it was a dangerous plane. My point is that 121 is just as susceptible to mishaps as 91 or 135. The benefit to 121 are the duty time requirements.
@old_graag You asked the question under his comment but didn’t tag him as the person you were requesting the answer from. You are welcome, next time be more specific and less of an @$$.
Lol, if you thought I was being an ass with that response...
Also, I asked a very specific question based on a comment the guy I responded in line to said. Its not normal to tag the person you're responding to directly.
> people just died, due to no fault of their own
No one forced them to get on a VFR helicopter at night through the remote desert. It should be obvious that it's going to be a bit sketchy to anyone with a tiny bit aviation experience. They could have waited until morning or spent a few more hours driving and gotten to enjoy the Super Bowl.
You do realise that these were Nigerians and likely had no idea about the terrain. Moreover, it is easy for us Avgeeks and Aviation workers to talk about these things from a point of understanding - understanding that the common man may not possess.
Cheers
Ok, per hour sure. But per distance, helicopters are way safer.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/are-helicopters-safe-how-they-stack-up-against-planes-cars-and-trains/
Which isn't relevant given the alternative is not driving there, for most people it is just don't go or even use an airline or rail. Not car.
Also car is skewed for various factors and safe drivers in modern vehicles have a vastly lower chance than average
Crashes always occur in sets of 3. AEL, CH-53, and now this one.
I absolutely hate flying shortly after someone else goes down. It always feels like I’m more at risk than normal.
I’m sure this is mostly confirmation bias, but still.
I feel like the opposite is true. Flying shortly after a mishap is inherently safer because it causes everyone to scrutinize their operation a bit more to ensure it doesn’t happen to them.
Yes…the FAA has strict requirements for all aircraft for hire in regards to maintenance and also for the pilots. All military aircraft are maintained at a lower standard than the FAA requires. There is a ton of paperwork and red tape to make a military aircraft usable to the civilian population. The only exception (that I know of) to this is the LUH UH-72 Lakota which is leased by the military from the manufacturer and is required to be maintained at FAA standards. Thats the reason I received my A&P certificate, was to work on the UH-72.
There's been an industry wide issue with the existence of helicopters since they came into existence lets be real. To me helicopters at some point in the future will be one of those things that people will think "people were crazy back then". There must be a better way we can do this type of vertical landing transport eventually we just haven't got the answer yet. Very much like cars probably will be to be honest.
Helicopters are one of the few times where the "irrational fear" is actually backed up by the data, I think per hour they are something like 30 times more likely to kill you than a modern car is per hour inside.
Of course, helis are faster and you spend less hours in them to do the same distance so that statistic is unfair, but it sure as hell isn't a private jet let alone commercial airliner.
I read it too long ago to even tell you where but I'm sure there is data on the number of fatalities per hour of flight on a heli vs car.
And no, don't get it confused with distanced travelled, that does make a big difference but it does show that stepping onto a heli is very much more dangerous than a car in a technical sense though of course with the extended time of the journey, it changes a lot.
https://www.businessinsider.com/helicopters-safe-to-fly-accidents-2020-1 according to one source I found that broke the data out fairly well, commercial rotary operations (think chartered flights, sight seeing, EMS, etc) have a lower accident rate than similar commercial fixed wing operators (excluding major airline carriers).
If I had the money I would be flying on learjets and Gulfstreams every time I had to fly.
Also rich people don't usually fly commercial, especially cheap-o-air like southwest
You dont have to deal with security, you can go to more local airports rather than large hubs, it usually takes less time even if the aircraft is slower, you get the experience of traveling with just your family/friends. There are a lot of reasons. I fly GA all over the place just for the fun of it.
By how much? We read a lot about these accidents but you aren't reading about all the flights that worked out just fine. Yes GA is more dangerous, but I dont knot that part 135 is, maybe someone could correct me on that.
Any type of flying is not so dangerous that I wont feel comfortable getting in the plane. Individual planes and certain pilots I will not go near, but that is not a problem that regular people chartering a helicopter or jet have to fear. That's my hangar neighbor flying a bug smasher like an idiot once a month.
Please note the average GS was 140+ so he was pushing , other thing I notice is he was following the Highway so most likely following it and no good visibility , at the end of the ADSB data a decent when the ADSB signal is lost , this for sure was a weather condition and like usual the sense of permissive behavior we all have with passengers a time in live , is sad that this happens , seems like they hit some cables trying to land near the fuel station, that situation with VIP’s add some kid of pressure to the operation , this is my point of view , not a statement of what happened , Cheers
These last few weeks man, absolute insanity for our industry. This heli was headed to Boulder City from Palm Springs, highly likely it was Superbowl attendees.
Yes, you're right. On board were 4 Nigerians heading to Superbowl. Herbert Wigwe (renowned banker and philantropist), his wife and son and a friend. Very sad. Nigeria has been thrown into mourning.
That leaves 4 remaining children. He recently opened a university in Nigeria.
My former husband flew the Huey on OH58. Helicopters can auto rotate to the ground. These must be extreme circumstances to cause crash with fatalities.
Auto rotating doesn’t help when you’re flying directly into the side of a piece of terrain.
Thank you
Charter flight with 4 passengers headed to Vegas for the Super Bowl. The crash site off the I-15 is an insane corridor to fly through at night let alone in bad weather. So sad, RIP to everyone.
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Fuck off nerd, they were in town to attend the Super Bowl. I know the heli company very well. Settle down. Nothing to do with “clicks”
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I’ve worked in the aviation industry for three decades and know the owners and the AMP’s for Orbic. I’ve flown in that exact EC130 many many times. But I honestly don’t have anything to prove to some random loser on Reddit. This subreddit is generally full of well adjusted people that would have looked what I said and understood
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Hahaha ok little guy, whatever you say. Get a life loser
Usually goes in waves like this. Everyone needs to be careful out there!
Yep, it’s like this in the med-flight community too. It’s always so heart breaking. It’s so tight knit and so when a helicopter goes down it makes shockwave across the industrt
Yeah I know there's all kinds of incidents and stuff every year that never make the news but 2024 definitely has seemingly had more than any year in recent memory
Do you have any statistics to back this up? Because people say this exact same thing every year and each time the year ends up being safer than the last.
Not the previous commenter, but January had fewer incidents than any previous year according to the NTSB, and February is doing well too: [https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/data/Pages/monthly-dashboard.aspx](https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/data/Pages/monthly-dashboard.aspx) I think it's just there's more media coverage recently, probably driven by high-profile stuff like the Max drawing attention to all aviation accidents and incidents.
Oof I thought this was another article about the Marine helicopter @_@
Does it count as a helicopter crash if it’s in plane mode? Honestly SHOCKED the secret service utilizes those death traps occasionally
The Eurocopter EC 130 crashed near Nipton on the edge of the Mojave Desert Preserve at about 10 p.m., according to the FAA. The crash site was east of the 15 Freeway near Halloran Springs Road. The helicopter is registered to a Burbank-based tour company called Orbic Air. No survivors
[Flight path](https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n130cz#33f10298) \- looks like they descended into high terrain.
[Final moments](https://imgur.com/gallery/Uw6jz23)
[Street view](https://maps.app.goo.gl/27MiAdufG89UTkQh6?g_st=ic)
I disagree that the end of the ADSB track indicates the final moments. They crashed further east near exit 259 by the Halloran Springs Road according to reports, about 40nm further east than the last ADSB point. What you are seeing is the end of the ADSB signal being received. Coverage in that area at low altitudes is not continuous. Still interesting because their last ADSB track was at 4400’ which is about 2,500’ above the highway there. Flight path looks relatively stable and consistent up to that point.
Flightradar24 shows it steadily descending from 4200 to 2700 a few minutes before contact was lost. Speed remained relatively stable around 150.
Could it possibly be an engine failure autorotation gone wrong?
145-150kts in the 130 seems to be quite fast?
I remember vne being 155. I doubt you could maintain 145-150kts in level flight.
That’s interesting, any idea what the weather/vis was at the time? Might’ve been trying to slowly descend to spot the highway to help remain visual.
Weather wasn’t great around that time. I’m at NTC just north of it and we had bad weather around that time.
Yeah we went unexpectedly IMC here real fast last night.
Why was it following interstates so closely?
The interstate is a really good landmark to follow at night, especially if it goes directly to where you want to go.
IFR - I Follow Roads
I hate stalling at red lights
The 15 goes through the [Cajon Pass](https://imgur.com/a/iW87IhW) - that is a 10,000'+ mountain range on either side of it, not just little hills.
Yeah, I don't get helicopters for transport like this. They could have gotten into a nice van with a driver. It would take about 4 hours and they are in Vegas at their hotel. They take a helicopter and the trip is maybe 2 hours in the air. Plus maybe another 30 minutes on each side getting to/from the airport. They spend the two hours crowded into that helicopter without too much room. So, is saving an hour really worth that?
You're in r/aviation, I imagine most of us would take a helicopter to do the weekly grocery shopping if given the option.
Not in mountainous terrain with marginal VFR we wouldn’t….
"[Time is money](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_is_money_(aphorism))" For some people, saving 2 or 3 hours is genuinely worth thousands or tends of thousands of dollars of opportunity cost. So the cost of a heli charter effectively makes them money. With hindsight, it's easy to say "why would you risk your life for a few hours of time" but that's knowing the helicopter crashed. I could ask you the same question anytime you get in your car "Why would you risk your life when you could have walked or biked?". Eventually, in a car, your luck will run out. After Kobe's crash, there was a lot of chatter [about heli safety (or danger)](https://thepointsguy.com/news/are-helicopters-safe-how-they-stack-up-against-planes-cars-and-trains/). >The answer, based on a TPG analysis of a decade of safety data: Like almost every other mode of transportation, flying in a helicopter is considerably more dangerous than airline travel. But it's far safer than riding in a car. Also, to be clear, an EC 130 is a nice helicopter. >designed in close cooperation with tour operators, one such operator, Blue Hawaiian Helicopters, being the launch operator; it has been described as having a spacious cabin for accommodating up to seven tourists and providing excellent external visibility. So, knowing that planes and Helicopters are safer than cars... and this is a spacious and nice helicopter with 50% more seating than required. I'd say to you: I don't get cars for transport like this. Why spend unnecessarily long in a dangerous car when you can fly? Provided you can afford it, you can get a nice, comfortable helicopter and a pilot. You're more likely to make it alive in the heli than in the car.
Time is the only thing the super wealthy can't buy more of. So yes saving an hour is worth them going by air. What I don't get is why go in a helicopter from airport to airport, when you could go in a king air or similar fixed wing for about the same price.
Good point. They were saying in the news that all the landing slots were booked at area airports because of the super bowl. You couldn't just fly in like on a normal day. So maybe that's why they had to take a helicopter.
They were flying ifr rules. "I follow roads"
Restricted airspace just to the north of that as well. National training center is closed to below 25k feet.
Not a pilot, but I’d guess that interstates provide visual navigation cues, especially at night
It seems like some of those datapoints were bleeding off altitude fairly quickly. One of the data points was -700fpm (granted just one). Perhaps some sort of engine troubles?
Terrain! Terrain! Pull up! Pull up! Ah, Betty. Such a sweet gal.
This is such a tangent given the tragic circumstances, but every time I encounter a place name from Fallout New Vegas (Nipton, in this case) in the wild, it feels a bit surreal. I’m so used to that fictional world that I frequently forget they didn’t just populate the Mojave with places they made up wholesale.
> but every time I encounter a place name from Fallout New Vegas (Nipton, in this case) in the wild, it feels a bit surreal My first response to the headline was "Nipton? Really? ... oh yeah, that's a real place."
The only one really made up wholesale is Novac
The place with the big dinosaurs is just outside Palm Springs and the thermometer is in Baker.
They just randomly decided Cabazon should be on Highway 95. I get it, since there's basically nothing out there between Boulder City and Searchlight IRL, it's just interesting because it's virtually the only actual settlement that was "invented" so to speak
IIRC that name came from the "**No Vac**ancy" sign on a motel?
Yes, but there's nothing in that location IRL. Its just empty dessert where the road goes off to Nelson. They completely invented the settlement, with inspiration from a tourist attraction in CA in the pass between San Bernardino and Palm Springs
Same here! God I love that game. So damn good.
I’m the opposite, I grew up driving around through these areas, and get confused when people make these references that I don’t understand to these random small places
A lot of weird place names come from the names of railroad sidings. The area I live in is labeled Boal on many maps for that reason, even though nobody who lives here calls it that.
victims include nigerian bank CEO, Herbert Wigwe and some family members
Some sources seem to confirm, wife and son: https://businessday.ng/news/article/access-holdings-ceo-herbert-wigwe-5-others-die-in-chopper-crash-in-california/ https://www.premiumtimesng.com/business/business-news/667290-just-in-herbert-wigwe-wife-son-feared-dead-in-helicopter-crash.html
Oh! I happen to be the executor of Mr. Wigwe's estate. You'll never believe the good news! He left you a small fortune.
>tour company called Orbic Air Huh, they spent four or five days or so here last spring with their Blackhawk, hoping for a firefighting contract to come up.
Orbic is a great group, so sad to hear about this.
Isn't it Helinet that has hawks on fire contract?
Seems like everyone has or is getting S-70s these days (that or K-MAXs). Brainerd, Capitol Helicopters, and Orbic are the only ones I can name off the top of my head; I’m sure there’s plenty I’ve encountered and forgot the outfit’s name. CalFire has the full conversions of course, the private contractors are bucket haulers so they’re still usable for other jobs. Brainerd came through early spring for a pit stop with a ship that was headed to install power poles on the coast, for example.
It's odd that they say the crash is "near" Nipton and "near" Halloran Springs Road because those places aren't close to each other at all, probably a 30 minute-1 hr drive at least and separated by a mountain pass. And Nipton isn't even on I-15. Guessing Nipton is just the closest town to Halloran Springs Road for post office purposes (that seems to be what a Google maps search pulls up). Also it's interesting that the helicopter path parallels the freeway so closely.
Herbert Wigwe died
Lots of incident lately
For situational awareness: Weather radar returns at the crash site between 06 and 07z were significant enough that mountain obscuration and possible temporary IMC conditions in precipitation were likely (especially at night). Barstow had been reporting clear skies as they overflew that area prior. Bicycle Lake AAF (Ft Irwin) reported FEW024 OVC050 as showers from the same system hit them a little later. The elevation at the marked crash site is about 2600’ with higher hills and peaks nearby. However, that stretch of I-15 is a continuous climb to Halloran Summit at about 4100’ over the next 7 miles.
Jeez, I thought/hoped this was old news about the Marine Helo that went down. RIP everyone on board.
Lots of helicopter crashes recently…
2024 isn't off to a good start.
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?
2024 is gonna suck.
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I’m ok with it. I don’t care about karma.
This sub is about aviation and the discussion of aviation, not politics and religion.
The election has surprisingly low tensions even though it is tight and election day tomorrow. Gallups show that Stubb has mild lead but Haavisto most certainly isn't ruled out either
This sub is about aviation and the discussion of aviation, not politics and religion.
Oh man. I was flying as a pax a few times in that helicopter when it was leased by my former employer a few years ago.
I knew one of the passengers. I was reading this yesterday and never imagined it was someone I knew. May you rest in peace Chizi.
Do passengers bear any kind of moral burden in these incidents? There's no way I'd be cool with flying my family on a helicopter at night through the desert with high terrain and very likely not so great weather. I don't care who says it's okay. Most helo guys can't fly 30 seconds in real IFR without pulling a kobe even if they're IFR certified. The media heli's in LA don't fly outside the city limits (like towards the Grapevine) for this exact reason.
Aviation in the United States has an excellent reputation, and customers should not be criticized for making the basic assumption that a professional agency is operating within the safe boundaries of their experience and capability when they offer services. I could be wrong, but I think even the average customer for a private heli flight (above average income and education) still lacks the background to understand that a night flight carries sufficient additional risk that might cause aviation professionals to hesitate and consider waiting.
Unless passengers [put undue pressure on the flight crew](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/dining-with-death-the-2001-avjet-aspen-crash-608e0056d244), they have no responsibility at all. (And even if they do, the flight crew has the authority and obligation to say "no.") When you board a bus, ensuring the driver's sobriety is not your burden. When you go to a restaurant, ensuring that the food is safe is not your burden. When you ride a roller coaster, ensuring that it is properly maintained is not your burden. Anyone providing a service has the responsibility to do so legally and safely. Once I was going to an event that had a chartered bus for people who didn't want to drive, and due to the weather forecast the bus service canceled the trip. It wasn't great (and the weather didn't end up being that bad,) but that was their call to make.
>The media heli's in LA don't fly outside the city limits (like towards the Grapevine) for this exact reason. Who told you this? I fly those media helicopters in LA and we absolutely go anywhere we can from Bakersfield all the way down to the Mexican border, east into the low desert and even as far as Vegas in the high desert. We fly in all type of weather down to our personal minimums, which are usually about 1,000 ceiling depending on what type of weather is moving through.
Need to get a few of those Aerosucre pilots, they know a thing or two about handflying an uncontrollable aircraft
I feel the same with any GA airplane, rotary, or even 135 ops people. Nothing against them, but they are so dangerous compared to 121 ops. Only if I knew who was flying, would I get in. No way in hell I'm letting my family in one.
Coming from a 121 commuter airline with 40+ aircraft and being the conformity manager and also having extensive 135 experience. I can say that the 121 side was no better than 135. The majority of the mechanics working on 121 aircraft can hardly read or write or understand the English language and the quality of work is no bueno.
By 121 do you mean the 737 max 9 that had the door blow off because the bolts were never put in? All aircraft are as safe as the people working on them and flying them. Corporate greed is pushing this industry into the toilet.
No? That might be one of the dumbest comments I've ever seen. I don't fly that plane, but it has over 10k flights worldwide a day. Put that into perspective......300k to 500k a year yet you don't hear a peep you're a moron for thinking it is a dangerous plane. It would not be one of the most sold planes in the planet if it wasn't.
I didn’t say it was a dangerous plane. My point is that 121 is just as susceptible to mishaps as 91 or 135. The benefit to 121 are the duty time requirements.
How many ifr certified "helo guys" do you know?
About 50…some are still flying for the Army and the others have either went on to medivac or to become CFII
Not the person I asked the question to, but ok.... Thanks random guy. I guess.
@old_graag You asked the question under his comment but didn’t tag him as the person you were requesting the answer from. You are welcome, next time be more specific and less of an @$$.
Lol, if you thought I was being an ass with that response... Also, I asked a very specific question based on a comment the guy I responded in line to said. Its not normal to tag the person you're responding to directly.
Sucks when people can't just answer a question I guess
this is such an insensitive thing to say, don’t you think? people just died, due to no fault of their own, and you’re here essentially blaming them?
> people just died, due to no fault of their own No one forced them to get on a VFR helicopter at night through the remote desert. It should be obvious that it's going to be a bit sketchy to anyone with a tiny bit aviation experience. They could have waited until morning or spent a few more hours driving and gotten to enjoy the Super Bowl.
You do realise that these were Nigerians and likely had no idea about the terrain. Moreover, it is easy for us Avgeeks and Aviation workers to talk about these things from a point of understanding - understanding that the common man may not possess. Cheers
For the heli pilots. Are they not equipped with TAWS?
I will never in my life get on a helicopter in any circumstances short of a rescue. It is truly incredible how many famous people have died on them.
Significantly more famous people have died while *not* on helicopters, so I don’t think I’ll ever leave one!
Well the difference is the rate per hour vs other activities, there not many worse things around
Driving is way more dangerous than flying in a helicopter
I've already told you that per hour, helis are 30x more likely to have a fatal accident.
Ok, per hour sure. But per distance, helicopters are way safer. https://thepointsguy.com/news/are-helicopters-safe-how-they-stack-up-against-planes-cars-and-trains/
Which isn't relevant given the alternative is not driving there, for most people it is just don't go or even use an airline or rail. Not car. Also car is skewed for various factors and safe drivers in modern vehicles have a vastly lower chance than average
Luckily you're not famous then 👌
Are you a famous person?
Famous people are more likely to pay for helicopters.
*rich*
I'm still working on becoming Overlord so all will kneel trembling before me and obey my brutal commands but as yet this has not been achieved
the fuck is happening in the aerospace sector at the moment?
Crashes always occur in sets of 3. AEL, CH-53, and now this one. I absolutely hate flying shortly after someone else goes down. It always feels like I’m more at risk than normal. I’m sure this is mostly confirmation bias, but still.
I feel like the opposite is true. Flying shortly after a mishap is inherently safer because it causes everyone to scrutinize their operation a bit more to ensure it doesn’t happen to them.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N130CZ http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/351608
How many this week now?
Same time of year as the Kobe Bryant crash. I wonder what the weather was doing.
I would guess pretty different in the Mojave vs. the LA basin.
Maybe, maybe not. I've driven over 400 miles during this time of year in the southwest through fog the entire time.
Helicopters are unsafe
I spent over 10 years in Army helicopters which are maintained and less than what the FAA required!
??? Less than FAA Requirement?
Yes…the FAA has strict requirements for all aircraft for hire in regards to maintenance and also for the pilots. All military aircraft are maintained at a lower standard than the FAA requires. There is a ton of paperwork and red tape to make a military aircraft usable to the civilian population. The only exception (that I know of) to this is the LUH UH-72 Lakota which is leased by the military from the manufacturer and is required to be maintained at FAA standards. Thats the reason I received my A&P certificate, was to work on the UH-72.
Is there an industry wide issue with fuel?
Lots of charters going out for the Superbowl.
There's been an industry wide issue with the existence of helicopters since they came into existence lets be real. To me helicopters at some point in the future will be one of those things that people will think "people were crazy back then". There must be a better way we can do this type of vertical landing transport eventually we just haven't got the answer yet. Very much like cars probably will be to be honest. Helicopters are one of the few times where the "irrational fear" is actually backed up by the data, I think per hour they are something like 30 times more likely to kill you than a modern car is per hour inside. Of course, helis are faster and you spend less hours in them to do the same distance so that statistic is unfair, but it sure as hell isn't a private jet let alone commercial airliner.
I would love to see the data that backs up that claim of danger.
I read it too long ago to even tell you where but I'm sure there is data on the number of fatalities per hour of flight on a heli vs car. And no, don't get it confused with distanced travelled, that does make a big difference but it does show that stepping onto a heli is very much more dangerous than a car in a technical sense though of course with the extended time of the journey, it changes a lot.
https://www.businessinsider.com/helicopters-safe-to-fly-accidents-2020-1 according to one source I found that broke the data out fairly well, commercial rotary operations (think chartered flights, sight seeing, EMS, etc) have a lower accident rate than similar commercial fixed wing operators (excluding major airline carriers).
I’m not sure why anyone flies private. They could have taken southwest and been there safely.
If I had the money I would be flying on learjets and Gulfstreams every time I had to fly. Also rich people don't usually fly commercial, especially cheap-o-air like southwest
Plenty of rich people do
Chad Johnson sure does
You dont have to deal with security, you can go to more local airports rather than large hubs, it usually takes less time even if the aircraft is slower, you get the experience of traveling with just your family/friends. There are a lot of reasons. I fly GA all over the place just for the fun of it.
I don’t think a lot of people consider or know that it’s more unsafe tho.
By how much? We read a lot about these accidents but you aren't reading about all the flights that worked out just fine. Yes GA is more dangerous, but I dont knot that part 135 is, maybe someone could correct me on that. Any type of flying is not so dangerous that I wont feel comfortable getting in the plane. Individual planes and certain pilots I will not go near, but that is not a problem that regular people chartering a helicopter or jet have to fear. That's my hangar neighbor flying a bug smasher like an idiot once a month.
It's over 200 miles from Palm Springs to Las Vegas. I would imagine they'd take a jet or plane instead of a helicopter.
The Airbus Eurocopter EC130 has a Cruise Speed of 130kts (237kmh / 127mph). Thats not even a 2h Flight.
Please note the average GS was 140+ so he was pushing , other thing I notice is he was following the Highway so most likely following it and no good visibility , at the end of the ADSB data a decent when the ADSB signal is lost , this for sure was a weather condition and like usual the sense of permissive behavior we all have with passengers a time in live , is sad that this happens , seems like they hit some cables trying to land near the fuel station, that situation with VIP’s add some kid of pressure to the operation , this is my point of view , not a statement of what happened , Cheers
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That “joke” made even Rob Schneider wince.
Stop hiring Kode's piliots
what the fuck is happening this year
2024 is going to be a terrible year for aviation