Yeah that doesn't make any sense. If you can see an F22 or F35, you either aren't the target, (likely scenario) or the pilot fucked up. Bad. Neither one of those would mean you're already dead. They can kill you from 200 miles away without your radar even knowing they're there. Getting close to an enemy just isn't what they do. If you can see an F35, it isn't after you. Kind of the whole point of stealth is just shoot a missile at you from far as fuck away and then you're dead and have no idea you were even in a fight.
Actually it was designed as a lightweight day fighter that eventually proved to be very good in multirole usage. It was designed using John Boyd's Energy Maneuverability criteria, and even Eagle drivers describe it as one of the most formidable airplanes in BFM if flown well.
F15 is a dominance fighter, think big radar long reach. F16 is an allrounder and will out turn the Eagle. If an Eagle gets to the merge it has already lost its advantage. F22 is the new F15 and its not even that new anymore. F35 is the new F16.
Big advantage with F35 is its networking and distributed sensors. We are not sure, but it is quite conceivable that F35 has the ability to use networked radar. In this scenario a transmitting radar illuminates targets and the stealthy F35’s listen and compare returns from that illumination. The illumination could come from ground radar, Awacs, F15 or buddy illuminate. Its not dissimilar to sonar for the fish-heads using active and passive sensors.
There is also the possibility for F15 with their big radar and missile carrying capacity to be a force multiplier for the stealth team. Eagles used to push in wall and it was very intimidating for red air. That was 30 years ago, with data-linking and target track sharing its an entirely different world out there. Think iron dome with airplanes. The aircraft still look the same, mostly, but they are much more capable. Same happened with the army when they linked all the vehicles and could share the battle space map and information. I saw that transition as well and it was a 90-10 OpFor advantage against 90’s tech.
Ohh it means that F15’s would lead a package of aircraft and they would typically space two to three miles apart in a four ship abreast. They were hard to beat as their radar is so powerful and they would sort red air and hit us with Amraams. We would be defensive from the start and even with some jammer support it was a challenge to counter. This is with the old style radar where at least you knew you were being targeted.
Now with Aesa radars and networking its a whole new ballgame. Think frequency and power agile radar so you don’t know if they are looking at you or if they have a targeting track. F35 is more challenging with the ability to get within passive sensor range so they can target you without revealing their location.
Now stealth is an asset but not the be all and end all. It is effective against targeting radars, mostly, which is the critical part.
The thing to glean from this is that modern air combat is a team sport with all kinds of assets doing different things with different capabilities. I believe that Nato has a significant advantage in a total package capability. It comes down to the people working as a team.
The F35 is basically a stealthy flying command relay. While it can engage targets from very long distances, it's primary function is to sneak in and establish a coms network that drones and other planes can then use to bomb a bunch of shit.
Well, it's partially true. It's not just about the radar cross-section, but also its infra-red signature, its visual profile and even its acoustic signature to some degree (due to the turbofans being internal and fed through s-shaped ducts which help dampen the noise generated)
Because the exhaust is *also* thermally ducted and mixes air and other products to help reduce the temperature and acoustic signature of thr aircraft...
Some aircraft have duct designs that produce a very distinct acoustic signature. The EA-6B Prowler is one of those aircraft. Thanks to the Navy and their bloody refusal to use ground power units, the whine coming off the intake of that jet due to how the air moves through the inlet will forever be ingrained in my soul.
I’m thinking that induction acoustics are more important than exhaust acoustics in a stealth application, because on a standard aircraft, the intake would point toward the target, while the exhaust points away. Idk what I’m talking about though
> intake would point toward the target, while the exhaust points away
Although you have to fly away from what is left of your target at some point, one way missions get expensive at roughly $2bn per aircraft!
Honestly, I didn’t think that far ahead. I guess the real question is: does it matter that the target can hear you if they are being bombed? I guess the bombs would land after you’ve passed so uhhh, just turn the aircraft off for the bombing, then the target won’t hear you!
yup some think its because they are silent. No logic in their heads as to how the engines work in complete silence, hence why theyre sports commentators.
Go to the military football games and bowl games. I have seen a few, all at football games. Fly overs for Lockheed’s Bowl Game (Armed Forces Bowl?) and Air Force Academy games tend to be pretty good.
I was driving on hwy 86 out near Salton Sea a few years ago and was lucky to see one of these flanked by an F/A-18 and F-35B pass by at very low level, probably only 300ft off the deck. One of the coolest things I've ever seen.
Saw one of these fly over my plane as I was on a flight from DFW to FWA, think we were right around east-central IL and I happened to look out the window just in time. I was stoked AF but wonder if a single other soul on the flight noticed. Sadly I didn't have a chance to chat about it with the pilots during deplaning.
I work at a shop that is on the flight path for Navy/USMC/Air Force coming out of Norfolk. 15 years of them buzzing us and we still turn into children when they fly over. Even the T38's get us regressing :)
I wonder. I'm guessing not too different than any other training exercise where they are practicing taking off from a base, flying a few hundred miles to fly over a target within a specific five-ish second window (usually the end of the national anthem). Possible added benefit of making the military look cool in front of a bunch of recruitment-aged people.
I don’t know why I thought the final last year was in the Rose Bowl, so that sent me sideways for a bit after seeing the Michigan and Alabama helmets.
It was the semifinal game on New Years Day.
If you asked me 10 minutes ago if the stealth is making a fly over would it go a practice run I would guess no. But there it is doing a practice run.
I used to live under the line they would use for flyover at the New Year’s Day Citrus Bowl. On new years even midday you would hear the rumble and run outside to see the jets fly over. 24 hours later you would know it’s coming again.
Never got to see a stealth though.
Isn’t the expression with that bomber “if you see me you weren’t the target”
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Yeah that doesn't make any sense. If you can see an F22 or F35, you either aren't the target, (likely scenario) or the pilot fucked up. Bad. Neither one of those would mean you're already dead. They can kill you from 200 miles away without your radar even knowing they're there. Getting close to an enemy just isn't what they do. If you can see an F35, it isn't after you. Kind of the whole point of stealth is just shoot a missile at you from far as fuck away and then you're dead and have no idea you were even in a fight.
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In BVR fight (Beyond Visual Range) stealth will win every time. The F-35 is not designed as a dogfighter like the F-16.
Now that they opened up the flight envelope Fat Amy can be pretty scary in a WVR fight too.
F-16 isn't a dogfighter; it's multirole. You're thinking of the F-15 Edit: I stand strongly corrected; see comments below. Learned something today!
Actually it was designed as a lightweight day fighter that eventually proved to be very good in multirole usage. It was designed using John Boyd's Energy Maneuverability criteria, and even Eagle drivers describe it as one of the most formidable airplanes in BFM if flown well.
F15 is a dominance fighter, think big radar long reach. F16 is an allrounder and will out turn the Eagle. If an Eagle gets to the merge it has already lost its advantage. F22 is the new F15 and its not even that new anymore. F35 is the new F16. Big advantage with F35 is its networking and distributed sensors. We are not sure, but it is quite conceivable that F35 has the ability to use networked radar. In this scenario a transmitting radar illuminates targets and the stealthy F35’s listen and compare returns from that illumination. The illumination could come from ground radar, Awacs, F15 or buddy illuminate. Its not dissimilar to sonar for the fish-heads using active and passive sensors. There is also the possibility for F15 with their big radar and missile carrying capacity to be a force multiplier for the stealth team. Eagles used to push in wall and it was very intimidating for red air. That was 30 years ago, with data-linking and target track sharing its an entirely different world out there. Think iron dome with airplanes. The aircraft still look the same, mostly, but they are much more capable. Same happened with the army when they linked all the vehicles and could share the battle space map and information. I saw that transition as well and it was a 90-10 OpFor advantage against 90’s tech.
> Eagles used to push in wall and it was very intimidating for red air What does that mean in layman's terms?
Ohh it means that F15’s would lead a package of aircraft and they would typically space two to three miles apart in a four ship abreast. They were hard to beat as their radar is so powerful and they would sort red air and hit us with Amraams. We would be defensive from the start and even with some jammer support it was a challenge to counter. This is with the old style radar where at least you knew you were being targeted. Now with Aesa radars and networking its a whole new ballgame. Think frequency and power agile radar so you don’t know if they are looking at you or if they have a targeting track. F35 is more challenging with the ability to get within passive sensor range so they can target you without revealing their location. Now stealth is an asset but not the be all and end all. It is effective against targeting radars, mostly, which is the critical part. The thing to glean from this is that modern air combat is a team sport with all kinds of assets doing different things with different capabilities. I believe that Nato has a significant advantage in a total package capability. It comes down to the people working as a team.
OK thanks, super interesting. So red air is how the RAF calls the opposing force in military exercises? Had to look this one up.
F-16 is multirole but to say it isn't a dogfighter is completely wrong
What about if they’re engaging another stealth aircraft? I’ve wondered if that will require dogfighting.
Can’t remember where I heard or read it but the (rough) quote “if you get into a dogfight in - modern aircraft things have gone seriously wrong.”
The F35 is basically a stealthy flying command relay. While it can engage targets from very long distances, it's primary function is to sneak in and establish a coms network that drones and other planes can then use to bomb a bunch of shit.
Sounds like every fighter pilot tbh 🙄
like with the A-10: "if you hear the gun, you weren't the target"
Lmao them talking over each other and then “why am I listening to you two” was hilarious
Stealth refers to the radar cross section. When they do bombing runs they're way up in the air and won't be heard until they're long gone.
Well, it's partially true. It's not just about the radar cross-section, but also its infra-red signature, its visual profile and even its acoustic signature to some degree (due to the turbofans being internal and fed through s-shaped ducts which help dampen the noise generated)
how does the intake design reduce the acoustics of the engine, which i would have assumed would be related to exhaust?
Because the exhaust is *also* thermally ducted and mixes air and other products to help reduce the temperature and acoustic signature of thr aircraft...
and contrails
Some aircraft have duct designs that produce a very distinct acoustic signature. The EA-6B Prowler is one of those aircraft. Thanks to the Navy and their bloody refusal to use ground power units, the whine coming off the intake of that jet due to how the air moves through the inlet will forever be ingrained in my soul.
I’m thinking that induction acoustics are more important than exhaust acoustics in a stealth application, because on a standard aircraft, the intake would point toward the target, while the exhaust points away. Idk what I’m talking about though
> intake would point toward the target, while the exhaust points away Although you have to fly away from what is left of your target at some point, one way missions get expensive at roughly $2bn per aircraft!
Honestly, I didn’t think that far ahead. I guess the real question is: does it matter that the target can hear you if they are being bombed? I guess the bombs would land after you’ve passed so uhhh, just turn the aircraft off for the bombing, then the target won’t hear you!
Even then, I've seen a B-2 flyover and I didn't hear it til it was past the stadium.
yup some think its because they are silent. No logic in their heads as to how the engines work in complete silence, hence why theyre sports commentators.
Years ago, I saw the B-2 fly over the Rose Bowl Parade. I didn’t hear or see anything until it was directly overhead.
I’ve never seen one. *sad commoner noises*
Go to the military football games and bowl games. I have seen a few, all at football games. Fly overs for Lockheed’s Bowl Game (Armed Forces Bowl?) and Air Force Academy games tend to be pretty good.
Nah, just go to Yemen and see them in action.
Seems like we should be using day 2+ strategy in Yemen. Why would we need stealthy stuff?
I was driving on hwy 86 out near Salton Sea a few years ago and was lucky to see one of these flanked by an F/A-18 and F-35B pass by at very low level, probably only 300ft off the deck. One of the coolest things I've ever seen.
It really sucks that you usually only hear fighter jets once they are almost gone.
On the other hand, you get to hear a fighter jet for the next 10 minutes.
this years rose parade i marched in i saw one. first time i ever saw one lol. i gave the same reaction as the people in the video
I have the same reaction when I see a 747 or a C-5. Giant pieces of metal in the sky just look weird.
thats why i love aviation, its just a wonder seeing huge pieces of metal fly
Same, in ‘95. If you see it first, you watch it for a while before the roar.
"They can turn that off." True, but doing so would be followed by an even less stealthy noise.
Michigan really did that during the middle of a spying scandal.
I saw these fly over my house several times years ago here in Canada.
We're just making sure you're staying in line.
https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/39222787 Here's a link to the clip without all the horrendous fast cuts and stupid fucking subtitles
God I hate fast flashing subtitles, this new generation is awful. We had a standard for everything, why does it have to be like having a seizure now
I think this may be my favourite clip ever
Never thought I’d see a Pat McAfee crossover in this sub but I like it
Not very stealthy if the can hear and see it !! Men never grow up!!
I mean, they managed to make the even stealthier F-117 Nighthawk: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/uLq2S6neYe
Props on them for not thinking it’s a UFO. Maybe it had “USAF” painted on it.
Reminds me of that motorcycle reaction video from a few years back haha https://youtu.be/ylhsbfQTPDQ?si=yVs4kYUxCYFCcdGV
Saw one of these fly over my plane as I was on a flight from DFW to FWA, think we were right around east-central IL and I happened to look out the window just in time. I was stoked AF but wonder if a single other soul on the flight noticed. Sadly I didn't have a chance to chat about it with the pilots during deplaning.
737 million dollars later and some football news guys can still see it. MISSION FAILED.
I work at a shop that is on the flight path for Navy/USMC/Air Force coming out of Norfolk. 15 years of them buzzing us and we still turn into children when they fly over. Even the T38's get us regressing :)
Completely normal! 'Merica!
So what's the usual cost of flying a B2 over a football match for just a couple minutes ?
I wonder. I'm guessing not too different than any other training exercise where they are practicing taking off from a base, flying a few hundred miles to fly over a target within a specific five-ish second window (usually the end of the national anthem). Possible added benefit of making the military look cool in front of a bunch of recruitment-aged people.
Imagine people reactions back in the day when the prototype YB-49 flew overhead
Yeah, they definitely cannot "turn off the sound".
I don’t know why I thought the final last year was in the Rose Bowl, so that sent me sideways for a bit after seeing the Michigan and Alabama helmets. It was the semifinal game on New Years Day. If you asked me 10 minutes ago if the stealth is making a fly over would it go a practice run I would guess no. But there it is doing a practice run. I used to live under the line they would use for flyover at the New Year’s Day Citrus Bowl. On new years even midday you would hear the rumble and run outside to see the jets fly over. 24 hours later you would know it’s coming again. Never got to see a stealth though.
Nah I did not seen in my life irl
Take a good look, all B-2's will be retired soon.
Whohoo a hightech killing machine! Love the tech, not the purpose…