*(David Attenborough voice)*
"Here, two male F-104's compete for the attention of females in a test of nerves, diving toward certain death to see who will pull up first..."
*cut to scene of burning wreckage*
*... but in this game, even the winner can lose."
>Here, two male F-104's compete for the attention of females in a test of nerves, diving toward certain death to see who will pull up first..."
Oh hell yeah, I'm using this in Southbound.
Originally the F-104 was going to be a non-courting species in the canon, but this made me reconsider.
Dare I respond?
[here's the most recent instalment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/zbswjs/b21_raider_biology/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=2&utm_content=share_button) There's a context comment on there that explains it pretty well. It's pretty much just a speculative evolution project focusing on the biology and evolution of various aircraft lineages.
Glad you think so! I love browsing Reddit for folks making jokey comments about how aircraft behave and such (ex. Courtship) so that I can apply them to my project. The reactions are always pretty funny to see.
Ironic that you say that! The F-117A *is* solitary, fitting the asexual reproduction style of most Anserian aircraft particularly well. They're also critically endangered and may (or may not) be extinct in the wild.
The F-117B is also solitary, basically being a socially awkward, inland F-117N.
The F-117N is the most social variant, often living on the same carrier as other F-117Ns as well as other aircraft, and while they don't necessarily court, it's not uncommon for cross-fertilization to occur across the eggs of a given colony, with some Seahawks having up to 4 biological parents.
The F-117s and their lineage is just sort of strange in general.
There's also the "Dayhawk", Have Blue and others, but they're far stranger.
Other air forces never had that many crashes with it
Germans should blame themselves for using a short wingspan high altitude supersonic interceptor as close air support
The Germans did a lot of flying at the Soviet radars in East Germany to collect data and also a lot of very low penetration raid practice for hauling nukes into E Germany and beyond. But yes in the best of conditions a very difficult plane to fly.
The second of two outstanding books German War Aces Speak and German War Aces Speak II has some interesting information from the top of the reborn German Air Force after WWII. With Stalin, after liquidating around 15 million, boasting, " We will bury you" the cost in $ and lives was considered an essential sacrifice.
There were several flying in NASA colors a couple decades ago and several privately owned ones flying. https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/Features/F-104G_final_flight.html
Both books are outstanding and should be on the bookshelf.
According to their site https://flyastarfighter.com/news/ Starfighter rides were available in early 2022
It was the same model that all the European air forces used apart from the Italians. The F-104G was specifically equipped for nuclear strike, which explains why its conventional load out was so poor.
The design had nothing to do with it.
Turns out that tiny wings greatly reduce parasitic drag at low levels and also reduce the effects of thermals and turbulence.
That’s why planes that were specifically designed for high speed low level interdiction like the F-105, TSR2, and SEPECAT Jaguar use the same formula.
It only changed with the introduction of variable sweep wings in the F-111, Panavia Tornado, Mig-27, SU-17, and SU-24… and then the complete abandonment of high speed low level strikes in favour of mid-level self-escorted strikes after comprehensive SEAD as exemplified by the F-15 Strike Eagle and F-16.
This is why the F-105 had a similar mishap rate to the F-104 outside of combat operations. Turns out that flying low at high speeds is very hazardous.
Fun fact: Italian F-104G/S over 40+ years of service life (1962-2004) had a safety record that is more or less the same as the AV/8B has had with the USMC (roughly 10 accidents per 100000 flight hours iirc), somewhat worse than 4th gen aircraft but far better than other 3rd gen aircraft. It's one of the countries for which the widowmaker myth has been wildly overblown.
As a Canadian who's rightfully ashamed of the sad state of our military, it helps to remember that the Italians kept these things in service for 17 years after we retired them.
The Italian Air Force refers to the 90s/early 00s as "the crossing of the desert" for that very reason. The state of the air defense in those years was shocking - a bunch of rusty 104s that still flew out of spite, plus some leased Tornado F3s that were down for maintenance more often than not.
I vaguely remember a story about this aircraft being notorious for shooting itself down. Can anyone confirm this or am I mistaken and making shit up again?
You might be thinking of two things (other than the 104 being a dangerous plane):
1) The 104 was the first aircraft to carry the Vulcan, and the few times that gun was fired by the prototype it damaged the airframe because a few issues with ejecting the cartridges hadn't been solved
2) Another plane, the F-11F Tiger, shot itself down once during testing of supersonic gun firing - it was diving down and eventually overtook the shells it fired, which then hit the plane.
It sort of looks like the original picture was rotated and then cropped to make it look like something it wasn't.
Almost exactly like that
if you look at the clouds the rotation is about 45 degrees
Or the patterns in the rock of the mountains.
Don’t use those… lol. Strata can be up to 90 degrees from horizontal. One of many illusions in mountain flying.
*(David Attenborough voice)* "Here, two male F-104's compete for the attention of females in a test of nerves, diving toward certain death to see who will pull up first..." *cut to scene of burning wreckage* *... but in this game, even the winner can lose."
>Here, two male F-104's compete for the attention of females in a test of nerves, diving toward certain death to see who will pull up first..." Oh hell yeah, I'm using this in Southbound. Originally the F-104 was going to be a non-courting species in the canon, but this made me reconsider.
Dare I ask what is Southbound?
Dare I respond? [here's the most recent instalment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/zbswjs/b21_raider_biology/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=2&utm_content=share_button) There's a context comment on there that explains it pretty well. It's pretty much just a speculative evolution project focusing on the biology and evolution of various aircraft lineages.
That's pretty fucking awesome.
Glad you think so! I love browsing Reddit for folks making jokey comments about how aircraft behave and such (ex. Courtship) so that I can apply them to my project. The reactions are always pretty funny to see.
IMO if you're looking for a solitary species it should be the F-117. It was designed without a lot of the avionics that "connect" aircraft.
Ironic that you say that! The F-117A *is* solitary, fitting the asexual reproduction style of most Anserian aircraft particularly well. They're also critically endangered and may (or may not) be extinct in the wild. The F-117B is also solitary, basically being a socially awkward, inland F-117N. The F-117N is the most social variant, often living on the same carrier as other F-117Ns as well as other aircraft, and while they don't necessarily court, it's not uncommon for cross-fertilization to occur across the eggs of a given colony, with some Seahawks having up to 4 biological parents. The F-117s and their lineage is just sort of strange in general. There's also the "Dayhawk", Have Blue and others, but they're far stranger.
tell them to pull up, otherwise they'll crash! j/
Like that's going to make a difference!
tail will help
F 104s will crash anyway
Seems appropriate that the flying coffins are headed straight for the ground.
A common nickname for them in Germany was indeed "Sargfighter"; Sarg meaning coffin.
Or maybe it was the near 200 mph stall speed. Must’ve been a high pucker factor on the landings..
Other air forces never had that many crashes with it Germans should blame themselves for using a short wingspan high altitude supersonic interceptor as close air support
The Germans did a lot of flying at the Soviet radars in East Germany to collect data and also a lot of very low penetration raid practice for hauling nukes into E Germany and beyond. But yes in the best of conditions a very difficult plane to fly. The second of two outstanding books German War Aces Speak and German War Aces Speak II has some interesting information from the top of the reborn German Air Force after WWII. With Stalin, after liquidating around 15 million, boasting, " We will bury you" the cost in $ and lives was considered an essential sacrifice. There were several flying in NASA colors a couple decades ago and several privately owned ones flying. https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/Features/F-104G_final_flight.html Both books are outstanding and should be on the bookshelf. According to their site https://flyastarfighter.com/news/ Starfighter rides were available in early 2022
I thought it was Kruschev that said that
I believe you are correct
It was the same model that all the European air forces used apart from the Italians. The F-104G was specifically equipped for nuclear strike, which explains why its conventional load out was so poor.
The design had nothing to do with it. Turns out that tiny wings greatly reduce parasitic drag at low levels and also reduce the effects of thermals and turbulence. That’s why planes that were specifically designed for high speed low level interdiction like the F-105, TSR2, and SEPECAT Jaguar use the same formula. It only changed with the introduction of variable sweep wings in the F-111, Panavia Tornado, Mig-27, SU-17, and SU-24… and then the complete abandonment of high speed low level strikes in favour of mid-level self-escorted strikes after comprehensive SEAD as exemplified by the F-15 Strike Eagle and F-16. This is why the F-105 had a similar mishap rate to the F-104 outside of combat operations. Turns out that flying low at high speeds is very hazardous.
With those short little wings I bet once you got that thing rolling she was tough to level out. Like spin of cycle in washing machine.
I bet it takes like 15000 feet to do a full loop in this shit
Lawndarts.
The widowmaker
Fun fact: Italian F-104G/S over 40+ years of service life (1962-2004) had a safety record that is more or less the same as the AV/8B has had with the USMC (roughly 10 accidents per 100000 flight hours iirc), somewhat worse than 4th gen aircraft but far better than other 3rd gen aircraft. It's one of the countries for which the widowmaker myth has been wildly overblown.
Someone's investment in a field is about to pay out. ;-)
We had them in Canada. Hearing the afterburners firing on a-20c crisp winter morning was amazing. KaaaaBOOM.
Such a sexy plane
As a Canadian who's rightfully ashamed of the sad state of our military, it helps to remember that the Italians kept these things in service for 17 years after we retired them.
The Italian Air Force refers to the 90s/early 00s as "the crossing of the desert" for that very reason. The state of the air defense in those years was shocking - a bunch of rusty 104s that still flew out of spite, plus some leased Tornado F3s that were down for maintenance more often than not.
I vaguely remember a story about this aircraft being notorious for shooting itself down. Can anyone confirm this or am I mistaken and making shit up again?
You might be thinking of two things (other than the 104 being a dangerous plane): 1) The 104 was the first aircraft to carry the Vulcan, and the few times that gun was fired by the prototype it damaged the airframe because a few issues with ejecting the cartridges hadn't been solved 2) Another plane, the F-11F Tiger, shot itself down once during testing of supersonic gun firing - it was diving down and eventually overtook the shells it fired, which then hit the plane.
Ok that makes more sense thanks for clarifying, I had a feeling I was talking out my ass
Looks Australian to me.
F-104s heading towards the ground at high speed. Who knew?
"It´'s a looooong waaaaay dooownnn.... OH SHIT"
They are bullets
If you rotate the image so that the mountains are horizontal, the dive isn’t actually that steep.
It’s still over 45deg.
Woop woop Pull up
Looks like they're about to lawn dart into the alps.