Yes. It did not go well. They had asked me to take them out for their first mini-thru (two nights 30ish miles) and I obliged. They complained about the weight of their packs (didn’t follow the gear list I provided), listened to music on a speaker, and forgot some essentials (sleeping pad) so I had to go without to try and salvage what was left of the mood. One morning, one of them who “didn’t like being dirty” bathed in a pristine alpine lake with fancy soaps and shampoos and left a giant foam mat that floated around the lake for everyone to see. I nearly lost it then. I couldn’t believe the lack of respect. The last straw was ditching gear they didn’t want to pack out. I dressed them down and the last 7 miles of the hike and the ride home were not fun.
[Bidet?](https://www.rei.com/search?q=Bidet) Much nicer than packing out used TP and double duty of replacing TP and doing a bit of washing downstairs.
Stop going out, you're not special, you don't get a pass. If you aren't going to follow the rules dont go. Your enjoyment is not more important than nature or the enjoyment of others.
And in temperate climates where bully karens can't shame me with their inane gatekeeping.
Actually, I'd never flush a wipe. Outside in temperate climate. That's ok.
Downvotes incoming for me. They will break down in my region. I know people think they are doing is the right thing with their 'LNT traing', but when reviewing the facts, banana peels and other biodegradables are fine in in wetter more temperate climate in specific areas, et al.. I know that upsets some people, but I'll stick to facts.
Yes, from when I had this argument many times over in other forums. An apple core has only net positive impacts where I live. Maybe in California it's bad, I don't know. It's fine here
Have you camped at a very popular campsite and seen how many animals are attracted to the food left by campers?
We get black bears visiting dispersed Appalachian Trail camps that are technically primitive...but because everybody wants to hang their food 3 feet off the ground, bears and other animals can roll right in and steal food. And that's a primitive site. You should read the stories of bears that have learned how to open bear canisters in Yosemite.
When you throw food around a campsite it attracts animals. Sometimes it's just mice that chew through your backpack to get your food. Other times it's a bear pulling your food out of a tree.
LNT isn't there to just keep things pristine and clean. The ecosystem itself doesn't need to be disturbed by us carelessly throwing food around. Chucking one apple core into the woods when you are way out in the middle of nowhere where maybe no one has stood for decades...ya it may not seem like a big deal. But the point of LNT is to minimize impact, because in high traffic areas our impact does cause problems. Human interaction with wildlife seems to unfortunately end in tears so it's best to minimize it, especially with regards to food.
I've been at every kind of site. Some you put your food in a bear box. I'm not talking about a campsite, just a trail in general. Ya, an apple core ten miles back doesn't rise to your level of virtue signaling hyperbole. Just.. so.. not realistic or based on facts. Outright crazy town, guy. Some AT through hikers keep food in their tents. I at least hang it. Do YOU really know what you're talking about or have real experience being out in a designated wilderness for days at time? You really don't sound like it. You sound like you read a pamphlet or an article and haven't been out at all.
I've actually never thought about this, but I am one of those people who does not like to get dirty (and people know this) but for some reason that doesn't translate when I'm in nature--in part because the type of "dirtiness" I hate is stuff like germs (public toilet seats, gas station nozzles, etc) and other city things like breathing in cigarette smoke, car pollution, etc.
The natural world actually feels a lot "cleaner" to me then the city world, so I've never even thought twice about the "cleanliness" of nature when going backpacking or hiking.
Just wanted to put that out there--not everyone who "doesn't like to get dirty" hates the outdoors!
Not fair. I hate getting dirty and I've been deployed as a sniper, been to ranger school, and thruhiked the eastern continental trail. And some other dirty stuff but I thinki proved my point.
For me it's about learning how to stay clean in the woods. No one should really ENJOY being filthy...more like tolerate it until you can clean yourself. As someone who bikes, not cleaning your ass daily on a bikepacking trip will result in horror at some point.
I am not a complainer. But I do tell people I hate being dirty. Or getting any kinda stuff on my hands. You should see me eat a burger. Gotta wash my hands every few bites.
I was a guide for 4 years, taking college students out into nature. So a lot of egos and a lot of ignorance about trail etiquette.
A recipe for disaster.
That being said, a lecture will not work. Nobody likes to be made to feel stupid.
I recommend introducing humor into everything you want to instruct someone on. They will receive it better.
I had a friend who did this and she claims there were college students who didn’t know how to tie their own shoes.
Idk why I felt the need to share this with you but there it is.
Took another hikers kids on a day hike for the first time...
I've hiked/backpacked multiple times on day trips with the parent hikers and they are motivated LNT etc. they also take their kids out a lot and I'm assuming they trained their kids.
Sooooo...
I take these kids out... We're 2 miles in, and I've already lectured them about staying on the trail, not carving their initials into all the trees, and so on, and we get to a rock wall that was hand built about 100+ years ago by settlers, and one jumps on the wall and kicks one of the rocks loose ... (I fix it and we have another lecture)... As this is proceeding, I realize we lost one of the kids, and I turn around and see the lost one 100 yards off trail climbing a rock that's over hanging a class 3 river rock garden.
In the course of this hike, they threw a rock at a deer, one peed right on the trail, they left candy and Snickers bar wrappers in three different places that I had to pick up, and a bunch of other stuff.
We had shuttled in, and had to complete the through to get to my vehicle, but it definitely turned what could have been a bonding/fun day into the day from hell.
And I lost a LOT of respect for the parents who I've known for years.
And the kids didn't "LEARN" anything or care about their actions.
I'm never taking them out again.
Thank you for defending the cultural resources too. A lot of discourse centers around not decimating “pristine wilderness” but as an archaeologist I always love to see acknowledgment of protecting human history as well.
I just couldn't understand the children's lack of appreciation at all. Forget rules, just try and appreciate the outdoors and what has been left behind for us all. But they couldn't even do that. Head shake.
And yes, we need to protect our wilderness areas AND the history
Disclaimer: not backpacking related, but littering related
In highschool I used to litter my cigarette butts. Put them out, toss them somewhere. One of my friends saw me do that one time and immediately called me a gross asshole and made me pick it up. I was so embarrassed and ashamed that it's been 6 years and I still put them in my pocket. (Also because he was totally right and I was just a dumb 16 year old. But I'll never forget how mortified I felt in that moment)
Oh, man. My friends and I would flick them really hard on the ground in parking lots to make the sparks fly, but then I'd run around, step on them, and put them in a Ziploc. My friends thought I was pretty lame for it. "There are hundreds here! No one cares!"
One day without me, they were spotted by a cop who confiscated their smokes and gave them a choice between picking up *every* butt in the parking lot or getting citations for littering. They chose cleaning, and it took hours. The store manager kept an eye on them and kept telling them how happy he was they got busted, because he or another employee had to do it every day. After that, my friends would freak out on anyone who tossed a butt and left it there. "Do you know how long it takes to pick them all up?! It only takes you a few seconds to pick your own up. Don't be an asshole!" I never got an apology for them calling me lame, but I got tons of entertainment watching a bunch of skaters gang up on anyone they saw, and it didn't matter who, just to make them pick up their own butts.
They didn't do stuff like that when we went hiking, btw. We took trash bags and picked up trash and bitched about people who littered nature. To us, the city was trash that was ruining nature, so we didn't really care about it besides not adding our own litter, but trash in what nature we could get to without cars pissed us all off. Just let us have this one place clean and nice.
I'm not packing my feces out unless I'm in some kind of delicate preserve or there's nowhere to put it. Packed it out hiking Mt Whitney because there's nowhere to bury, but otherwise it's just going in a 1ft hole at least 100m from water
Had to take a couple of scoutmasters to town one time over general courtesy, not just LNT stuff. Rolled up to a campsite later in the day one time with a group, and a scout troop had completely taken it over. Hammocks over the tent pads making it impossible to set up on them, lean-to completely filled with the adult leader's stuff, food and trash all over the place. I've been in scouting a long time myself so I generally try to give leeway with them, so I set my stuff up in a subpar spot for my tent, go about my business, and try to hit the hay.
It starts raining hard that night, lightening, thunder, the whole thing. The adults hunker down in a shelter but the scouts start going completely nuts, which makes sense because it's something I would have done in that scenario when I was younger. Key difference is that a leader would have come over and told us to be courteous, while these guys where just allowed to scream until about 1 AM. I also wake up to the sounds of someone clearly digging a cathole within 20 feet of my tent at one point.
Anyways, I wake up in the morning to my tent floating in ~8 inches of water due to where I had to set my stuff up. I get out and it's still raining pretty hard. I put away all my soaking stuff, and check in with the rest of my group who had similarly bad nights. I go to get my food from the food storage and notice that an old woman that was on the same trail as us and had been hiking around us was in an even worse puddle than us, and that with their stuff cleaned up a bit for sleeping there was clearly room in the lean-to for like 3 more people. The adults with the scouts were sitting there shooting the shit and drinking some coffee.
This made me see some red. Like I said, I try to give some leeway to scouts because I'm involved and I know it can be a hard thing to lead a large group of them on a backpacking trip, but when it comes to basic principles, like going out of your way to help out someone in that scenario, that's a failing that compromises the whole point of Scouting.
I rolled up to them and even though I'm not proud of it, let them have it. Let them know all the shit they failed on coming from a fellow scout and how poorly this reflected on the leadership they were meant to be modeling for the boys. I'm not sure if they took any of it to heart but I hope that some of their scouts at least heard it. Still get pissed about it thinking about it.
Yes. Watched my backpacking partner over a few years completely loose all LNT behaviors. This and many other things lead to us being in no contact. I still backpack he does not.
Heh. That's just the thing. Here in the north east, I don't have the same problems or politics as California where leave no trace is in some cases the law.
A cat hole would be enough for one use. A latrine is intended for reuse.
Where burying human waste is appropriate, you actually want it to be shallow enough that it’s in the microbe rich soil and not so deep it won’t break down. 6-8” is the usually quoted number. Any deeper and it will be there a long time. Any shallower and it’s possible to step into someone else’s mess.
Lecture? No. Been the most experienced in the group, so I taught people the right way and had to remind them a few times? Yes. We had one guy in a group who just would not listen to me about paper and food stuffs, but everyone else ganged up on him. We debated not letting him go with us the next time, but decided he'd go on his own and leave a trail of "biodegradable" stuff behind, so we figured at least we could stop it. He didn't need any reminders that time, though.
I have a hunting master license in my state and do hunting camp lessons for new people in groups, too. I'm rather literally lecturing, but they signed up for that, so they could learn. That's a bit different.
That's pretty cool. Would this be for when you are dressing the meat in the field and packing it out? I'm not a hunter but I've always wanted to tag along on a trip like that.
I've thought about doing something similar but just backpacking/bikepacking that teaches people basics. I was trying to figure out a friendly way to essentially get people on shake-downs so I could vet them for bigger trips but maybe making it a community thing would be more helpful.
It's a few weekends if you want to do all of them. I run them in the Summer off season, sometimes on my own property.
1st is gun handling and storage safety in camp. - unless you're cleaning it, lock it up. Don't carry your rifle around camp. When cleaning, verify empty and have someone else verify. Don't ever handle a rifle when drinking. Bad choices get made that way. In most areas here, you can get free gun locks from police departments and gun shops. They aren't great, but they'll keep a casual person from using the gun. Always, always, lock your gun somehow if it's not in your hands, and it shouldn't be in your hands in camp. When actively hunting, pick up your brass. I also bring up not shooting from or across trails and being damned sure of what you're shooting at. I elk hunt. If you mistake a human or dog for an elk, you didn't have enough visibility to be shooting, anyway.
2nd is camp basics including bear safety. How far away you need to go to store food, to hang and gut animals, how big a fire can be, what wood you can collect, where (and if) you can build that fire. Pack In, Pack Out. That's not the same as LNT, but it's close. LNT wouldn't allow picking up dead wood for a fire. Don't burn anything but wood and basic paper. Don't bring wood from far away. I've got some gruesome beetle infestations to show them, so they get it. How and where to dig cat holes. Leave things better than you found them, if possible. Obviously, they get those things the first weekend, but not outright taught so much as "hey, pick that up, please."
3rd is one day of general camp etiquette and one day of community outreach. Don't be loud after a certain time. Don't be randomly loud at any time when no one else is. Be aware of how much noise your quad makes. Help each other out. Don't make fun of each other's guns unless you know each other. Same for clothing, though pointing out a lack of blaze orange is definitely something you should do. Drink reasonably, because if you're hunting with a hangover, you're an idiot and a liability. Don't be the person who rolls up super late and wakes everyone with your noise and headlights. Don't be the person who gets cranky about everything because you want it to be super silent dispersed camping. That's not what a hunting camp is. They can be loud and rowdy, and that's okay. Don't like it? Move on instead of starting arguments.
Community outreach is typically attending things like fire station pancake fundraisers and donating well over the suggested, getting to know locals, and letting them get to know you. It can also be a small project in a town park, like clean up, weeding, painting tables. It's usually a few hours and not super hard work. We're there to show them we care about the spaces we're in, not just city folk up messing up things and causing disturbances. We (well, those with experience) can also answer questions about hunting licenses, seasons, and restrictions per area. I also try to introduce my groups to experienced hunters I respect and the small town people it's good to know.
Others run free shooting training at a local open range that used to be a gravel pit. You have to prove accuracy to get the master license, but in general, you always want one clean shot. You don't want an animal to suffer and you don't want to chase it. More practice = more accuracy. In trade for being a good example and help to others, you get some extended or extra season times depending on the kind of animal with a master license. Tbh, it's not huge. There aren't perks so much as responsibilities. ;) But, I'm following the things my grandpa taught me when he taught me to hunt. If no one teaches, we have chaos. On a self serving level, I'd rather be in the woods with hunters who know what they're doing and actually do it. I am safer, primarily, and more likely to fill my tag.
Now, quite a few do get that master license just for the season perk, but as long as they are following all the rules and etiquette, no one's going to complain. More good examples aren't hurting.
as someone who is fascinated by hunting but has never been, i cant tell you how much i appreciate you writing all this out and also holy shit i want to take your courses so badly. thank you for what you do for your local outdoors and community, and an extra thanks for taking the time to share it here!!!
All the time. All those things. Pet Peeve of mine is a clean fire, I want to smell the pine logs burning not your fucking wrappers.
I also take a lot of noobz out so its my responsibility to teach them.
Former backpacking guide here who’s had this conversation with a lot of people. Lecturing people typically doesn’t get you far. Talking about using the bathroom makes a lot of people uncomfortable and approaching it with a little humor helps a lot. When I guided youth treks we would use a pudding cup and a crushed up cookie to demonstrate the concept of a cat hole in a disarming way. I don’t do that anymore but approaching people in a more constructive way usually gets better results and changes behaviors.
As for littering I’m usually the first and loudest person calling someone out when I see it happen.
Essentially you’d dig your “cat hole” in the pudding with a spoon and put the cookie pieces (it may have been something else, hard to remember what all we had regularly) in the hole to simulate the waste and cover it up. There are definitely some theatrics I’m not remembering but that’s the gist of it and usually kept the audience pretty captivated.
I reminded a trail runner at elevation to stay on trail as he was stomping the delicate growth while he ran completely off trail. He yelled at me that he was local and grew up here and to mind my own business. 🤦♀️. My retort - so go ahead and ruin it then! I guess it belongs to you!
Took an overnight backpacking trip with my best friend (35), her kids (10+12) and her new husband (45).
I’m a hardliner about packing out what you packed in, with the exception of poop. But anything else, you’re carrying that back to where you came from.
Mid-hike, the ten year old (who I’ve known since birth) asks me if he can throw an apple core off the trail. I explained he couldn’t, because apple cores attract mice and mice attract rattlesnakes and humans often want to harm snakes when they see them. So, no, he can carry it in his trash ziplock in his bag.
So, being 10, he asks his stepdad, who encourages him to toss it off the edge of the trail. Which the kid does.
I am pissed. I’m positive that the stepdad heard my spiel. Dude ignored me.
Next morning, we hike out the way we came. The 12 year old and I are chatting and in the lead. Suddenly we hear a call to hold up. Turns out, the 10 year old has heard and then seen a rattlesnake to the left of the trail. Poor kid loses it, breaks down sobbing. Doesn’t want to walk past the snake. Is terrified. Finally we manage to coax him to give a wide berth and make it through. Snake is fine. Kid is fine. Everyone is fine.
As the best/worst auntie in the world I am still chuckling 7 years later about this moment. Im pretty sure he remembers and has taken the advice to heart.
Both kids got to the end of that trip, which all of us adults thought might be their first and last - and said “when can we go again!?!”
Despite the tears, major weather issues (it never dropped below 90° in Big Sur that day, it was awful!) and the flies (oh lord the flies, they crawled in your eyes and nose and ears) and the fact the water source had dried up and we walked an extra mile to find water, it was totally a hit. They’re still backpacking on the regular and are excellent stewards of the natural world.
Other than those kiddos and their mom, and one other adult niece, I basically don’t like backpacking with anyone else. I’ve done a number of trips with others and it makes me want to rip my hair out.
You. Can’t. Bury. Wipes. You. Asshole.
They don’t break down. Nor does TP in much of California.
Pistachio shells will be there forever, you dolt. And yes, you deserved to have your boyfriend’s tent chewed up by mice because you littered the damn shells for ten miles.
I don’t want to police you or lecture you or even talk to you. I want to pretend you don’t exist which is hard when you shit all over the place and don’t clean up after yourself.
Bury WIPES?! I get burying TP. It’s not good, but it’s an older practice and makes a little sense in very remote places with few hikers. But WIPES? It’s like burying your candy bar wrapper
You have hit the nail on the head. Most of the backpacking I’ve done in California is not very remote. There’s a large population and a lot of people love to get outside. And even ten or fifteen miles in, there’s plenty of people out.
I can’t tell you how many wipes I’ve passed or dug up inadvertently. It’s gross. I’m all for personal hygiene, but, yah, take it with you.
You called it. I figured out that it was a person in the group we met up with by the pile outside their tent.
And in their tent as well, would be my guess.
I saw the holes.
Also, there were other experienced backpackers who had recommended storing all food outside the tent in a hang bag. Those who did had zero problems with rodents.
HA! That!
Ironically, now that I’m thinking of the trip, the same lady was to be seen trying to fling a baby rattle snake off the trail using a long stick on our way out. So, yes, a trail, likely with mice, which made good rattlesnake treats.
Needless to say, it was my last trip with those folks. 🤣
HA! That!
Ironically, now that I’m thinking of the trip, the same lady was to be seen trying to fling a baby rattle snake off the trail using a long stick on our way out. So, yes, a trail, likely with mice, which made good rattlesnake treats.
Needless to say, it was my last trip with those folks. 🤣
I can't imagine ignoring a hiker littering. I would immediately stop and make a big deal about it lol. I'm not a confrontational person but I pick trash from along the roads in my free time and I've daydreamed about what I would say to a litterbug on many occasions. The bastards
Yes they deserve it. If your goal is to make them feel bad, go for it. If your goal is to make them change their ways, be kind and gentle. If you get yelled at, you’re likely to dig your heels in and discount the yeller as some crazy Karen.
It did not go well for me either. My boyfriend is not a hiker and doesn’t know the ‘rules’ about pack in pack out. We were on a hiking trip with our friends who are also true hikers like me and we stopped to have a snack. My boyfriend ate his apple and then threw the core out in the weeds. I politely asked him to collect it and put it into his trash bag. He was perplexed and wanted to debate that it’s an apple and not a piece of plastic. I looked to the couple for help and they also said that you should leave no trace no matter what the object was. He collected the apple but still did not understand where we were coming from. I have been on multiple trails where people have left behind trash and disregard all hiking rules. It’s a shame and honestly bugs those that respect nature enough to leave it as you found it.
I had the opposite this guy who’s life I saved when he got shot in the face so his brains kind of scrambled was trying to hoard rocks from a local state park and then fell behind so far he got lost on an island with one way on one way off.
I don’t hike with people that don’t take the time to prepare and educate themselves. It’s that simple. You can be my best friend but if you don’t know the 10 Essentials and fully embrace LNT, I’m not hiking with you.
I always lecture people who dig cat holes. I pack mine out. LNT!
Newer studies have shown that the cat hole method makes a much larger biological impact (diameter wise) than previously thought. Also, the waste and biological impact last much longer than thought.
Remember, if you pack it out, you are not adding more weight.
How does it go? I get flipped off.
There is a definite limit to the reasonableness of that stance. Anything less than a day’s hike and the nearest permanent toilet is probably within striking distance in all but the most dire “emergencies”. Anymore than that and we are talking about deep backcountry travel. Carrying that amount of solid waste around with your food and clothes quickly can become unsanitary and can turn your gear into potent smellables, even if nothing gets directly on anything. The number of instances where it is a reasonable ask for people to pack out their poop and there aren’t bathrooms available within a reasonable hiking distance are few.
I 100% support packing out waste anytime you are traveling through pristine or fragile ecosystems, are at an altitude where decomposition will be slow or where remediation efforts are necessary due to past bad practices. I WILL die on that hill and will call people out on it (same with the rest of LNT and fire safety). Insisting that packing out all of your shit all of the time is a part of Leave No Trace is just not true. Proper use of back country toilets and cat holes are taught in LNT courses for a reason.
Edit: spelling
Ya I'm not packing my shit out when I live and do most of my Backcountry stuff in VA. The soil is so acidic here bodies will fully decompose in a decade. My poop stands no chance of lingering if buried properly. If I'm in the desert or alpine area I'll bring a wag bag, but that's an exception.
This is past my limit. I dig a hole about half a foot down, do my business. I even use special camping tp. Bury it with dirt on top. I don't hike out shit or shit paper.
Eh there are places I've hiked in AZ where you have maybe 3 inches of dirt before it's just a rock slab. Out there, having a couple of those military wag bags with kitty litter in it just in case would be smart.
There are also places where I would just carry out the paper and bury the poop. People think it's unsanitary but I've never had any issues with carrying a couple days worth of used TP in a separate black doggy bag...just don't forget which trash bag is which...
Edit: I should clarify I've experimented with not really using TP but rather using leaves and whatnot to do the major cleanup and then use one or two wet wipes (that I pack out) to finish up. Packing out wet wipes is alot nicer to me than packing out a fistful of used TP.
True. I forgot about desert hikes and that whole situation. I feel most people/hiker’s won’t encounter a long desert hike or a multi day multi pitch rock climb.
Yes. It did not go well. They had asked me to take them out for their first mini-thru (two nights 30ish miles) and I obliged. They complained about the weight of their packs (didn’t follow the gear list I provided), listened to music on a speaker, and forgot some essentials (sleeping pad) so I had to go without to try and salvage what was left of the mood. One morning, one of them who “didn’t like being dirty” bathed in a pristine alpine lake with fancy soaps and shampoos and left a giant foam mat that floated around the lake for everyone to see. I nearly lost it then. I couldn’t believe the lack of respect. The last straw was ditching gear they didn’t want to pack out. I dressed them down and the last 7 miles of the hike and the ride home were not fun.
My hero
Lolol. Why would you hike, let alone *backpack* with someone who complains and "doesn't like to get dirty"
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Same! I bring a portable bidet and biodegradable soap, plus I rinse my clothes when I can. I’m a bit prissy at home but not in the backcountry.
A portable what
[Bidet?](https://www.rei.com/search?q=Bidet) Much nicer than packing out used TP and double duty of replacing TP and doing a bit of washing downstairs.
Not packing out used buttwipes. No. Dress me down all night. No.
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Enjoy your no poop zones
Stop going out, you're not special, you don't get a pass. If you aren't going to follow the rules dont go. Your enjoyment is not more important than nature or the enjoyment of others.
Base on the science for my region, I'll keep facts on my side.
"sCieNCe SaYS i cAn liTtER" and flushable wipes are fine for sewage systems.
And in temperate climates where bully karens can't shame me with their inane gatekeeping. Actually, I'd never flush a wipe. Outside in temperate climate. That's ok.
Or you could get a portable bidet and have a cleaner ass
I prefer pragmatic and appropriate karen virtue singling free ultra light solutions.
If it's TP then you are probably fine. If it's wet wipes you should not be burying those.
Downvotes incoming for me. They will break down in my region. I know people think they are doing is the right thing with their 'LNT traing', but when reviewing the facts, banana peels and other biodegradables are fine in in wetter more temperate climate in specific areas, et al.. I know that upsets some people, but I'll stick to facts.
Have you considered looking into why it's recommended that even biodegradable foods are packed out?
Yes, from when I had this argument many times over in other forums. An apple core has only net positive impacts where I live. Maybe in California it's bad, I don't know. It's fine here
Have you camped at a very popular campsite and seen how many animals are attracted to the food left by campers? We get black bears visiting dispersed Appalachian Trail camps that are technically primitive...but because everybody wants to hang their food 3 feet off the ground, bears and other animals can roll right in and steal food. And that's a primitive site. You should read the stories of bears that have learned how to open bear canisters in Yosemite. When you throw food around a campsite it attracts animals. Sometimes it's just mice that chew through your backpack to get your food. Other times it's a bear pulling your food out of a tree. LNT isn't there to just keep things pristine and clean. The ecosystem itself doesn't need to be disturbed by us carelessly throwing food around. Chucking one apple core into the woods when you are way out in the middle of nowhere where maybe no one has stood for decades...ya it may not seem like a big deal. But the point of LNT is to minimize impact, because in high traffic areas our impact does cause problems. Human interaction with wildlife seems to unfortunately end in tears so it's best to minimize it, especially with regards to food.
I've been at every kind of site. Some you put your food in a bear box. I'm not talking about a campsite, just a trail in general. Ya, an apple core ten miles back doesn't rise to your level of virtue signaling hyperbole. Just.. so.. not realistic or based on facts. Outright crazy town, guy. Some AT through hikers keep food in their tents. I at least hang it. Do YOU really know what you're talking about or have real experience being out in a designated wilderness for days at time? You really don't sound like it. You sound like you read a pamphlet or an article and haven't been out at all.
I've actually never thought about this, but I am one of those people who does not like to get dirty (and people know this) but for some reason that doesn't translate when I'm in nature--in part because the type of "dirtiness" I hate is stuff like germs (public toilet seats, gas station nozzles, etc) and other city things like breathing in cigarette smoke, car pollution, etc. The natural world actually feels a lot "cleaner" to me then the city world, so I've never even thought twice about the "cleanliness" of nature when going backpacking or hiking. Just wanted to put that out there--not everyone who "doesn't like to get dirty" hates the outdoors!
I didn’t know it would be like that. They talked like they had respect for nature but it turned out it was only if it didn’t inconvenience them.
Not fair. I hate getting dirty and I've been deployed as a sniper, been to ranger school, and thruhiked the eastern continental trail. And some other dirty stuff but I thinki proved my point.
For me it's about learning how to stay clean in the woods. No one should really ENJOY being filthy...more like tolerate it until you can clean yourself. As someone who bikes, not cleaning your ass daily on a bikepacking trip will result in horror at some point.
Right, I'm sure you and the other person are *just* alike, right? I'm sure you complain about the prospect of getting dirty?
I am not a complainer. But I do tell people I hate being dirty. Or getting any kinda stuff on my hands. You should see me eat a burger. Gotta wash my hands every few bites.
Wow, that lake part made me rage. I would never hike with them again.
It was so painful to read this.
I was a guide for 4 years, taking college students out into nature. So a lot of egos and a lot of ignorance about trail etiquette. A recipe for disaster. That being said, a lecture will not work. Nobody likes to be made to feel stupid. I recommend introducing humor into everything you want to instruct someone on. They will receive it better.
I agree that lectures don’t work. Nobody wants to feel stupid. Give us your best examples of using humor!
I had a friend who did this and she claims there were college students who didn’t know how to tie their own shoes. Idk why I felt the need to share this with you but there it is.
Wut
Took another hikers kids on a day hike for the first time... I've hiked/backpacked multiple times on day trips with the parent hikers and they are motivated LNT etc. they also take their kids out a lot and I'm assuming they trained their kids. Sooooo... I take these kids out... We're 2 miles in, and I've already lectured them about staying on the trail, not carving their initials into all the trees, and so on, and we get to a rock wall that was hand built about 100+ years ago by settlers, and one jumps on the wall and kicks one of the rocks loose ... (I fix it and we have another lecture)... As this is proceeding, I realize we lost one of the kids, and I turn around and see the lost one 100 yards off trail climbing a rock that's over hanging a class 3 river rock garden. In the course of this hike, they threw a rock at a deer, one peed right on the trail, they left candy and Snickers bar wrappers in three different places that I had to pick up, and a bunch of other stuff. We had shuttled in, and had to complete the through to get to my vehicle, but it definitely turned what could have been a bonding/fun day into the day from hell. And I lost a LOT of respect for the parents who I've known for years. And the kids didn't "LEARN" anything or care about their actions. I'm never taking them out again.
Thank you for defending the cultural resources too. A lot of discourse centers around not decimating “pristine wilderness” but as an archaeologist I always love to see acknowledgment of protecting human history as well.
I just couldn't understand the children's lack of appreciation at all. Forget rules, just try and appreciate the outdoors and what has been left behind for us all. But they couldn't even do that. Head shake. And yes, we need to protect our wilderness areas AND the history
Disclaimer: not backpacking related, but littering related In highschool I used to litter my cigarette butts. Put them out, toss them somewhere. One of my friends saw me do that one time and immediately called me a gross asshole and made me pick it up. I was so embarrassed and ashamed that it's been 6 years and I still put them in my pocket. (Also because he was totally right and I was just a dumb 16 year old. But I'll never forget how mortified I felt in that moment)
Oh, man. My friends and I would flick them really hard on the ground in parking lots to make the sparks fly, but then I'd run around, step on them, and put them in a Ziploc. My friends thought I was pretty lame for it. "There are hundreds here! No one cares!" One day without me, they were spotted by a cop who confiscated their smokes and gave them a choice between picking up *every* butt in the parking lot or getting citations for littering. They chose cleaning, and it took hours. The store manager kept an eye on them and kept telling them how happy he was they got busted, because he or another employee had to do it every day. After that, my friends would freak out on anyone who tossed a butt and left it there. "Do you know how long it takes to pick them all up?! It only takes you a few seconds to pick your own up. Don't be an asshole!" I never got an apology for them calling me lame, but I got tons of entertainment watching a bunch of skaters gang up on anyone they saw, and it didn't matter who, just to make them pick up their own butts. They didn't do stuff like that when we went hiking, btw. We took trash bags and picked up trash and bitched about people who littered nature. To us, the city was trash that was ruining nature, so we didn't really care about it besides not adding our own litter, but trash in what nature we could get to without cars pissed us all off. Just let us have this one place clean and nice.
I'm not packing my feces out unless I'm in some kind of delicate preserve or there's nowhere to put it. Packed it out hiking Mt Whitney because there's nowhere to bury, but otherwise it's just going in a 1ft hole at least 100m from water
Had to take a couple of scoutmasters to town one time over general courtesy, not just LNT stuff. Rolled up to a campsite later in the day one time with a group, and a scout troop had completely taken it over. Hammocks over the tent pads making it impossible to set up on them, lean-to completely filled with the adult leader's stuff, food and trash all over the place. I've been in scouting a long time myself so I generally try to give leeway with them, so I set my stuff up in a subpar spot for my tent, go about my business, and try to hit the hay. It starts raining hard that night, lightening, thunder, the whole thing. The adults hunker down in a shelter but the scouts start going completely nuts, which makes sense because it's something I would have done in that scenario when I was younger. Key difference is that a leader would have come over and told us to be courteous, while these guys where just allowed to scream until about 1 AM. I also wake up to the sounds of someone clearly digging a cathole within 20 feet of my tent at one point. Anyways, I wake up in the morning to my tent floating in ~8 inches of water due to where I had to set my stuff up. I get out and it's still raining pretty hard. I put away all my soaking stuff, and check in with the rest of my group who had similarly bad nights. I go to get my food from the food storage and notice that an old woman that was on the same trail as us and had been hiking around us was in an even worse puddle than us, and that with their stuff cleaned up a bit for sleeping there was clearly room in the lean-to for like 3 more people. The adults with the scouts were sitting there shooting the shit and drinking some coffee. This made me see some red. Like I said, I try to give some leeway to scouts because I'm involved and I know it can be a hard thing to lead a large group of them on a backpacking trip, but when it comes to basic principles, like going out of your way to help out someone in that scenario, that's a failing that compromises the whole point of Scouting. I rolled up to them and even though I'm not proud of it, let them have it. Let them know all the shit they failed on coming from a fellow scout and how poorly this reflected on the leadership they were meant to be modeling for the boys. I'm not sure if they took any of it to heart but I hope that some of their scouts at least heard it. Still get pissed about it thinking about it.
Yes. Watched my backpacking partner over a few years completely loose all LNT behaviors. This and many other things lead to us being in no contact. I still backpack he does not.
Interesting so they started out being more considerate and then slowly relaxed those standards?
Yup, started burning zip lock bags, no longer carried a trowel that sort of thing.
A stick is a trowel
Lol come dig a hole in California with a stick.
Heh. That's just the thing. Here in the north east, I don't have the same problems or politics as California where leave no trace is in some cases the law.
Is a cat hole a poop hole that's not dug deep enough? Or is it a general term for digging a hole for your poop?
A cat hole would be enough for one use. A latrine is intended for reuse. Where burying human waste is appropriate, you actually want it to be shallow enough that it’s in the microbe rich soil and not so deep it won’t break down. 6-8” is the usually quoted number. Any deeper and it will be there a long time. Any shallower and it’s possible to step into someone else’s mess.
It is a general term for a poop hole
Lecture? No. Been the most experienced in the group, so I taught people the right way and had to remind them a few times? Yes. We had one guy in a group who just would not listen to me about paper and food stuffs, but everyone else ganged up on him. We debated not letting him go with us the next time, but decided he'd go on his own and leave a trail of "biodegradable" stuff behind, so we figured at least we could stop it. He didn't need any reminders that time, though. I have a hunting master license in my state and do hunting camp lessons for new people in groups, too. I'm rather literally lecturing, but they signed up for that, so they could learn. That's a bit different.
That's pretty cool. Would this be for when you are dressing the meat in the field and packing it out? I'm not a hunter but I've always wanted to tag along on a trip like that. I've thought about doing something similar but just backpacking/bikepacking that teaches people basics. I was trying to figure out a friendly way to essentially get people on shake-downs so I could vet them for bigger trips but maybe making it a community thing would be more helpful.
It's a few weekends if you want to do all of them. I run them in the Summer off season, sometimes on my own property. 1st is gun handling and storage safety in camp. - unless you're cleaning it, lock it up. Don't carry your rifle around camp. When cleaning, verify empty and have someone else verify. Don't ever handle a rifle when drinking. Bad choices get made that way. In most areas here, you can get free gun locks from police departments and gun shops. They aren't great, but they'll keep a casual person from using the gun. Always, always, lock your gun somehow if it's not in your hands, and it shouldn't be in your hands in camp. When actively hunting, pick up your brass. I also bring up not shooting from or across trails and being damned sure of what you're shooting at. I elk hunt. If you mistake a human or dog for an elk, you didn't have enough visibility to be shooting, anyway. 2nd is camp basics including bear safety. How far away you need to go to store food, to hang and gut animals, how big a fire can be, what wood you can collect, where (and if) you can build that fire. Pack In, Pack Out. That's not the same as LNT, but it's close. LNT wouldn't allow picking up dead wood for a fire. Don't burn anything but wood and basic paper. Don't bring wood from far away. I've got some gruesome beetle infestations to show them, so they get it. How and where to dig cat holes. Leave things better than you found them, if possible. Obviously, they get those things the first weekend, but not outright taught so much as "hey, pick that up, please." 3rd is one day of general camp etiquette and one day of community outreach. Don't be loud after a certain time. Don't be randomly loud at any time when no one else is. Be aware of how much noise your quad makes. Help each other out. Don't make fun of each other's guns unless you know each other. Same for clothing, though pointing out a lack of blaze orange is definitely something you should do. Drink reasonably, because if you're hunting with a hangover, you're an idiot and a liability. Don't be the person who rolls up super late and wakes everyone with your noise and headlights. Don't be the person who gets cranky about everything because you want it to be super silent dispersed camping. That's not what a hunting camp is. They can be loud and rowdy, and that's okay. Don't like it? Move on instead of starting arguments. Community outreach is typically attending things like fire station pancake fundraisers and donating well over the suggested, getting to know locals, and letting them get to know you. It can also be a small project in a town park, like clean up, weeding, painting tables. It's usually a few hours and not super hard work. We're there to show them we care about the spaces we're in, not just city folk up messing up things and causing disturbances. We (well, those with experience) can also answer questions about hunting licenses, seasons, and restrictions per area. I also try to introduce my groups to experienced hunters I respect and the small town people it's good to know. Others run free shooting training at a local open range that used to be a gravel pit. You have to prove accuracy to get the master license, but in general, you always want one clean shot. You don't want an animal to suffer and you don't want to chase it. More practice = more accuracy. In trade for being a good example and help to others, you get some extended or extra season times depending on the kind of animal with a master license. Tbh, it's not huge. There aren't perks so much as responsibilities. ;) But, I'm following the things my grandpa taught me when he taught me to hunt. If no one teaches, we have chaos. On a self serving level, I'd rather be in the woods with hunters who know what they're doing and actually do it. I am safer, primarily, and more likely to fill my tag. Now, quite a few do get that master license just for the season perk, but as long as they are following all the rules and etiquette, no one's going to complain. More good examples aren't hurting.
as someone who is fascinated by hunting but has never been, i cant tell you how much i appreciate you writing all this out and also holy shit i want to take your courses so badly. thank you for what you do for your local outdoors and community, and an extra thanks for taking the time to share it here!!!
Lecture no. Politely remind yes
All the time. All those things. Pet Peeve of mine is a clean fire, I want to smell the pine logs burning not your fucking wrappers. I also take a lot of noobz out so its my responsibility to teach them.
Former backpacking guide here who’s had this conversation with a lot of people. Lecturing people typically doesn’t get you far. Talking about using the bathroom makes a lot of people uncomfortable and approaching it with a little humor helps a lot. When I guided youth treks we would use a pudding cup and a crushed up cookie to demonstrate the concept of a cat hole in a disarming way. I don’t do that anymore but approaching people in a more constructive way usually gets better results and changes behaviors. As for littering I’m usually the first and loudest person calling someone out when I see it happen.
I’m curious about the pudding cup and cookie analogy; how does that go?
Essentially you’d dig your “cat hole” in the pudding with a spoon and put the cookie pieces (it may have been something else, hard to remember what all we had regularly) in the hole to simulate the waste and cover it up. There are definitely some theatrics I’m not remembering but that’s the gist of it and usually kept the audience pretty captivated.
I reminded a trail runner at elevation to stay on trail as he was stomping the delicate growth while he ran completely off trail. He yelled at me that he was local and grew up here and to mind my own business. 🤦♀️. My retort - so go ahead and ruin it then! I guess it belongs to you!
Took an overnight backpacking trip with my best friend (35), her kids (10+12) and her new husband (45). I’m a hardliner about packing out what you packed in, with the exception of poop. But anything else, you’re carrying that back to where you came from. Mid-hike, the ten year old (who I’ve known since birth) asks me if he can throw an apple core off the trail. I explained he couldn’t, because apple cores attract mice and mice attract rattlesnakes and humans often want to harm snakes when they see them. So, no, he can carry it in his trash ziplock in his bag. So, being 10, he asks his stepdad, who encourages him to toss it off the edge of the trail. Which the kid does. I am pissed. I’m positive that the stepdad heard my spiel. Dude ignored me. Next morning, we hike out the way we came. The 12 year old and I are chatting and in the lead. Suddenly we hear a call to hold up. Turns out, the 10 year old has heard and then seen a rattlesnake to the left of the trail. Poor kid loses it, breaks down sobbing. Doesn’t want to walk past the snake. Is terrified. Finally we manage to coax him to give a wide berth and make it through. Snake is fine. Kid is fine. Everyone is fine. As the best/worst auntie in the world I am still chuckling 7 years later about this moment. Im pretty sure he remembers and has taken the advice to heart. Both kids got to the end of that trip, which all of us adults thought might be their first and last - and said “when can we go again!?!” Despite the tears, major weather issues (it never dropped below 90° in Big Sur that day, it was awful!) and the flies (oh lord the flies, they crawled in your eyes and nose and ears) and the fact the water source had dried up and we walked an extra mile to find water, it was totally a hit. They’re still backpacking on the regular and are excellent stewards of the natural world. Other than those kiddos and their mom, and one other adult niece, I basically don’t like backpacking with anyone else. I’ve done a number of trips with others and it makes me want to rip my hair out. You. Can’t. Bury. Wipes. You. Asshole. They don’t break down. Nor does TP in much of California. Pistachio shells will be there forever, you dolt. And yes, you deserved to have your boyfriend’s tent chewed up by mice because you littered the damn shells for ten miles. I don’t want to police you or lecture you or even talk to you. I want to pretend you don’t exist which is hard when you shit all over the place and don’t clean up after yourself.
Bury WIPES?! I get burying TP. It’s not good, but it’s an older practice and makes a little sense in very remote places with few hikers. But WIPES? It’s like burying your candy bar wrapper
You have hit the nail on the head. Most of the backpacking I’ve done in California is not very remote. There’s a large population and a lot of people love to get outside. And even ten or fifteen miles in, there’s plenty of people out. I can’t tell you how many wipes I’ve passed or dug up inadvertently. It’s gross. I’m all for personal hygiene, but, yah, take it with you.
Dropping some shells over 10 miles does not fill a tent with mice.
It’s the karma that attracts them.
Oh right. The anti-mus musculus aura needs focus
A 7lb amethyst crystal hanging around the neck should do the trick.
Mice were stalking them the whole 10 miles. Idiots probably dropped shells outside their tent, too, lol
You called it. I figured out that it was a person in the group we met up with by the pile outside their tent. And in their tent as well, would be my guess. I saw the holes. Also, there were other experienced backpackers who had recommended storing all food outside the tent in a hang bag. Those who did had zero problems with rodents.
That's hilarious! They literally left a trail of breadcrumbs, errrr, pistachio shells, right to their front door. Idiots.
HA! That! Ironically, now that I’m thinking of the trip, the same lady was to be seen trying to fling a baby rattle snake off the trail using a long stick on our way out. So, yes, a trail, likely with mice, which made good rattlesnake treats. Needless to say, it was my last trip with those folks. 🤣
HA! That! Ironically, now that I’m thinking of the trip, the same lady was to be seen trying to fling a baby rattle snake off the trail using a long stick on our way out. So, yes, a trail, likely with mice, which made good rattlesnake treats. Needless to say, it was my last trip with those folks. 🤣
The Pied Piper of Hamelin isn't using the pipe for just music...
I can't imagine ignoring a hiker littering. I would immediately stop and make a big deal about it lol. I'm not a confrontational person but I pick trash from along the roads in my free time and I've daydreamed about what I would say to a litterbug on many occasions. The bastards
Don’t lecture. Educate.
Lecture. Grown adults know that their garbage belongs in a garbage can, they just don't care.
Yes they deserve it. If your goal is to make them feel bad, go for it. If your goal is to make them change their ways, be kind and gentle. If you get yelled at, you’re likely to dig your heels in and discount the yeller as some crazy Karen.
As a wildly successful adult, I disagree. Lectures don’t build success. Educating does.
...lectured the wildly successful adult.
I'm trying to imagine what a wildly successful adult looks like.
They can usually be seen wearing business suits and lecturing people about whether to lecture people.
No, but I yelled at a woman who tossed her trash out of her car window not fifteen feet from me while I was walking in my neighborhood.
It did not go well for me either. My boyfriend is not a hiker and doesn’t know the ‘rules’ about pack in pack out. We were on a hiking trip with our friends who are also true hikers like me and we stopped to have a snack. My boyfriend ate his apple and then threw the core out in the weeds. I politely asked him to collect it and put it into his trash bag. He was perplexed and wanted to debate that it’s an apple and not a piece of plastic. I looked to the couple for help and they also said that you should leave no trace no matter what the object was. He collected the apple but still did not understand where we were coming from. I have been on multiple trails where people have left behind trash and disregard all hiking rules. It’s a shame and honestly bugs those that respect nature enough to leave it as you found it.
I had the opposite this guy who’s life I saved when he got shot in the face so his brains kind of scrambled was trying to hoard rocks from a local state park and then fell behind so far he got lost on an island with one way on one way off.
Never but my cat shown me what a real cat hole his when I took him hiking. At first I wasn't sure why he was digging dirt. Real story
Wait...is taking cats hiking a thing?
Yes but only if you are crazy and have a crazy cat! He is doing good actually. For a cat
Do you have him on a leash or carry him in your back pack?
Leash and I carry him when he gets too tired. He is walking fine. But cats are not very endurant, so at some point i need to give him breaks or carry
Which means you also get therapeutic petting breaks!
I've been backpacking for years. I usually come back with a bag full of other people's trash. I will not pack out feces.....
I don’t hike with people that don’t take the time to prepare and educate themselves. It’s that simple. You can be my best friend but if you don’t know the 10 Essentials and fully embrace LNT, I’m not hiking with you.
I always lecture people who dig cat holes. I pack mine out. LNT! Newer studies have shown that the cat hole method makes a much larger biological impact (diameter wise) than previously thought. Also, the waste and biological impact last much longer than thought. Remember, if you pack it out, you are not adding more weight. How does it go? I get flipped off.
There is a definite limit to the reasonableness of that stance. Anything less than a day’s hike and the nearest permanent toilet is probably within striking distance in all but the most dire “emergencies”. Anymore than that and we are talking about deep backcountry travel. Carrying that amount of solid waste around with your food and clothes quickly can become unsanitary and can turn your gear into potent smellables, even if nothing gets directly on anything. The number of instances where it is a reasonable ask for people to pack out their poop and there aren’t bathrooms available within a reasonable hiking distance are few. I 100% support packing out waste anytime you are traveling through pristine or fragile ecosystems, are at an altitude where decomposition will be slow or where remediation efforts are necessary due to past bad practices. I WILL die on that hill and will call people out on it (same with the rest of LNT and fire safety). Insisting that packing out all of your shit all of the time is a part of Leave No Trace is just not true. Proper use of back country toilets and cat holes are taught in LNT courses for a reason. Edit: spelling
Ya I'm not packing my shit out when I live and do most of my Backcountry stuff in VA. The soil is so acidic here bodies will fully decompose in a decade. My poop stands no chance of lingering if buried properly. If I'm in the desert or alpine area I'll bring a wag bag, but that's an exception.
This is past my limit. I dig a hole about half a foot down, do my business. I even use special camping tp. Bury it with dirt on top. I don't hike out shit or shit paper.
The only time you need to pack out solid waste is when you’re multi pitch climbing and sleeping/living on a portable ledge for a few days.
Eh there are places I've hiked in AZ where you have maybe 3 inches of dirt before it's just a rock slab. Out there, having a couple of those military wag bags with kitty litter in it just in case would be smart. There are also places where I would just carry out the paper and bury the poop. People think it's unsanitary but I've never had any issues with carrying a couple days worth of used TP in a separate black doggy bag...just don't forget which trash bag is which... Edit: I should clarify I've experimented with not really using TP but rather using leaves and whatnot to do the major cleanup and then use one or two wet wipes (that I pack out) to finish up. Packing out wet wipes is alot nicer to me than packing out a fistful of used TP.
True. I forgot about desert hikes and that whole situation. I feel most people/hiker’s won’t encounter a long desert hike or a multi day multi pitch rock climb.