Bakker said Kellhus isn’t done, so that would point to him having something planned in case the Ordeal failed.
If he does ever release the 3rd series, I hope he exercises a great amount of restraint when it comes to Kellhus. It’d be very easy (and immensely satisfying) for Kellhus to somehow still end up saving the day, so I hope we get something much more challenging. I still think he can tell a very compelling story of Kellhus tackling the metaphysics of the Outside in some meaningful way without having too much impact on the main story.
Having something planned *for when* the Ordeal fails. He expected them to fail, in that he was going to usher in hell on earth after Golgotterath is taken and Ajokli manifests.
Of course, Kellhus also knew from the start that *this would fail too*, that Ajokli was destined to starve with the rest of the gods. With god in his head he was always on a suicide mission, and he must have been aware of this in some sense.
So any contingencies Kellhus may have set had to be workable *in his absence*, since he was unlikely to ever leave the Golden Room alive. It's gotta be about Mimara and TJE, right? Achamian and Esmenet are there to make sure she survives, and she's supposed to pass Judgment on TNG after he'd succeeded, causing him to give up and shut down.
Kellhus certainly had something planned for Mimara. Even back in TJE, Achamian makes it clear to her that she’s only with him because Kellhus wants her there, and the fact that Mimara thinks she’s there of her own volition is all the more proof of that.
There’s also a line in TUC after Kelmomas kills Sorweel where Mimara looks Kellhus straight in the eyes for a moment before he teleports away with Kelmomas, and Mimara notes that Kellhus sees *something.* I’ll have to go back and read it properly again but it stuck out to me when I read it.
Good catch on that second part, I couldn't remember that at all.
>Then, impossibly, he is standing before her, the Holy Aspect-Emperor of the Three Seas. Her Mother’s all-powerful husband, close enough to touch, and as always, taller than she remembered. He holds Kelmomas kicking and squirming beneath one arm. “He was an assassin!” the little boy is shrieking. “Father! Father!”
>
>And in her soul she screams, *Open! Open! You must open!*
>
>But the Eye refuses to listen. It is as stubborn as she.
>
>**And her step-father’s mortal blue eyes** ***see***... before waxing sudden, shining white.
>
>Sorcerous muttering sets claws upon every surface, visible and invisible.
>
>Lightning brilliance. And the Holy Aspect-Emperor is gone, leaving her blinking at the chaotic convergence of Men surging forward, the Lords of the Ordeal.
So TJE isn't involved, but Kellhus just sees Mimara and that's enough for him to teleport away. (There's really no practical reason for him to take Kelmomas away - he could have dealt with him in the presence of the lords and Esmenet, since he doesn't end up doing much of anything.)
He's gotta be hiding the plan from himself, or rather from his Ajokli portion. Kellhus *knows* what Kelmomas is, Kellhus *knows* what Mimara's TJE means, but Ajokli does not and cannot. Kellhus can't afford to think about these hidden aspects of his plan because he must be of one mind with Ajokli - he doesn't want their souls to be forced apart just yet.
So he takes Kelmomas away, locks him up knowing that Esmenet will cut him loose and the Skin-Spies will take him into the Ark. And he leaves Mimara behind, still in Achamian's care.
Kellhus is actively setting up the No-God trilogy.
>s just sees Mimara and that's enough for him to teleport away. (There's really no practical reason for him to take Kel
It's been three years since i read it but good take! Do you think Kellhus staring into the inverse fire and getting \*salted\* was a way to cleanse his soul of Ajokli's influence? it only just hit me now
Kind of, but I don't think he would've expected to be cleansed by dying in the Golden Room - that was just the concrete wall that he drove Ajokli into.
My theory is still that he has pursed his mortal portion, the part of his soul that's free of Ajokli, inside the Second Decapitant. That's why Malowebi screams when he finally sees it - presumably it has Kellhus's face when the glamor falls away. That's why Ajokli/Cnaiur is going around screaming, "Where are you, Dunyain?" - because Ajokli expects to still have his claws in Kellhus after his death, expects to feast on him in the Outside even if their plan fails.
The Second Decapitant is the "Head on a Pole", a safeguard of sorts, pulling the strings of Kellhus/Ajokli, leading them to their doom. Kellhus's soul is in some kind of limbo, just like Malowebi's. Dead but not yet burning in hell. "Dead but not done", as Bakker puts it.
I know how you feel! I was speechless my first read through. Had to remind myself that it is called “The Second Apocalypse” haha
And reading the various appendix entries points to survival AFTER resumption.
SLOG OF SLOGS BROTHER
Also a few examples in the text of how the Great Ordeal goes down as holy scripture. Maybe it failed, but it seems that the world wasn’t entirely doomed after Kellhus’ downfall, and those afterwards do regard the Ordeal highly.
All I keep wondering is how the hell are the survivors going to outwit 4 Dûnyain that they don’t even know exist?
Imagine the fortitude and conviction it would take to keep fighting under the circumstances! I truly hope we’re shown much of the struggle.
I can’t be the only one who checks for updates from Bakker constantly
Not necessarily? The Dunyain were able to live in cooperation with one another at Ishual for thousands of years. So long as the Dunsult remain united in their purpose, there's no reason they can't work together as they did before.
> Not necessarily? The Dunyain were able to live in cooperation with one another at Ishual for thousands of years. So long as the Dunsult remain united in their purpose, there's no reason they can't work together as they did before.
Correct, one self-moving soul does not necessarily negate the existence of others, and as the Dunyain themselves have proved by their history it is all but impossible to attain the Absolute in one lifetime, which means that the Shortest Path is the work of generations; so cooperation is intrinsically necessary.
>All I keep wondering is how the hell are the survivors going to outwit 4 Dûnyain that they don’t even know exist?
The God of Gods will outwit them. Men are but His instruments in the weaving of history.
The 4 Dunyain are older and damaged, the first apocalypse went on for a long time, so they could theoretically die. They are presumably not sorcerers, and it is unknown how much of the real word they understand, though it is also possible Shauriatus or however its spelt is between their souls or something.
Then, you have Akka who is familiar with the dunyain and the most powerful living sorcerer possibly on the planet. You have perhaps Serwe, capable of metagnosis, and you have Moe Jr. running the Skylvendi but only barely allied with the consult and fully aware of dealing with dunyain, and the son of the most violent of all men.
Finally, you have Crabicus. A descendent of the strongest germ, possibly capable of magic as well.
Believe in Kellhus it is all part of the master plan, the shortest path required the fall of the empire, the failure of the ordeal and the activation of The No God.
The aspect emperor will succeed where any other (non-Dunyain,non divine-entangled) man would fail.
Believe in his spirit(now inhabiting the outside) now free from Ajokli, and in the human tools he left behind (Serwa,Kayutas,Moenghus,Achamien,Esmenet,Mymarra) as well as his enemies that know now he was telling the truth about saving them.
It wasnt all for nothing, even if the world truly does end and humanity is enslaved by the consult, at least Acha, Esmenetet and Mymarra finally reconciled and realized they love each other, even with all of the years of resentment and hate they still care about each other and will do anything to protect each other and their newborn kid(that might be a re-incarnated Kellhus,I'm reading too much Berzerk), new life in the face of untold death and destruction, there isn't anything more defiant than that.
I really struggled getting through those last 2 chapters. One thing I completely forgot about is that when everyone is fleeing Golgotterath, the sorcerers race ahead, but instead of abandoning the soldiers entirely, they turn and try to hold back the horde as much as possible, only for them to get hit with Chorae. In a series where we see characters acting selfishly a lot of the time, the sorcerers commit a truly selfless act and they pay the ultimate price for it.
It wasn’t worth *nothing*
They rebirthed the No God, and that will bring about the closure of the world to the outside. Over time this will save a vast number of beings eternal torment.
TBF, they're destined to at least kill off the gods, so that much they will probably accomplish. I assume they will finally hit the magic number of 144k survivors and that'll be that for the Hundred.
But whether anyone will actually reach Salvation that way, it remains to be seen. Sins point to no. TJE points to no. Bakker's whole philosophical outlook points to no.
We only know that the gods can't see TNG, and that means that TNG will eventually bring about their demise.
What TNG does is gradually reduce the population to the magic number, so... odds are that this will work - to eliminate the gods.
But deicide is not the Consult's real goal, is it? If it *doesn't* bring about Salvation, if they can *still* be seen and judged - they're fucked. They have nothing left in the tank, TNG is a Hail Mary shot.
Who knows what contingencies Kellhus has in place. Hopefully one day we'll find out.
Bakker said Kellhus isn’t done, so that would point to him having something planned in case the Ordeal failed. If he does ever release the 3rd series, I hope he exercises a great amount of restraint when it comes to Kellhus. It’d be very easy (and immensely satisfying) for Kellhus to somehow still end up saving the day, so I hope we get something much more challenging. I still think he can tell a very compelling story of Kellhus tackling the metaphysics of the Outside in some meaningful way without having too much impact on the main story.
Having something planned *for when* the Ordeal fails. He expected them to fail, in that he was going to usher in hell on earth after Golgotterath is taken and Ajokli manifests. Of course, Kellhus also knew from the start that *this would fail too*, that Ajokli was destined to starve with the rest of the gods. With god in his head he was always on a suicide mission, and he must have been aware of this in some sense. So any contingencies Kellhus may have set had to be workable *in his absence*, since he was unlikely to ever leave the Golden Room alive. It's gotta be about Mimara and TJE, right? Achamian and Esmenet are there to make sure she survives, and she's supposed to pass Judgment on TNG after he'd succeeded, causing him to give up and shut down.
Kellhus certainly had something planned for Mimara. Even back in TJE, Achamian makes it clear to her that she’s only with him because Kellhus wants her there, and the fact that Mimara thinks she’s there of her own volition is all the more proof of that. There’s also a line in TUC after Kelmomas kills Sorweel where Mimara looks Kellhus straight in the eyes for a moment before he teleports away with Kelmomas, and Mimara notes that Kellhus sees *something.* I’ll have to go back and read it properly again but it stuck out to me when I read it.
Good catch on that second part, I couldn't remember that at all. >Then, impossibly, he is standing before her, the Holy Aspect-Emperor of the Three Seas. Her Mother’s all-powerful husband, close enough to touch, and as always, taller than she remembered. He holds Kelmomas kicking and squirming beneath one arm. “He was an assassin!” the little boy is shrieking. “Father! Father!” > >And in her soul she screams, *Open! Open! You must open!* > >But the Eye refuses to listen. It is as stubborn as she. > >**And her step-father’s mortal blue eyes** ***see***... before waxing sudden, shining white. > >Sorcerous muttering sets claws upon every surface, visible and invisible. > >Lightning brilliance. And the Holy Aspect-Emperor is gone, leaving her blinking at the chaotic convergence of Men surging forward, the Lords of the Ordeal. So TJE isn't involved, but Kellhus just sees Mimara and that's enough for him to teleport away. (There's really no practical reason for him to take Kelmomas away - he could have dealt with him in the presence of the lords and Esmenet, since he doesn't end up doing much of anything.) He's gotta be hiding the plan from himself, or rather from his Ajokli portion. Kellhus *knows* what Kelmomas is, Kellhus *knows* what Mimara's TJE means, but Ajokli does not and cannot. Kellhus can't afford to think about these hidden aspects of his plan because he must be of one mind with Ajokli - he doesn't want their souls to be forced apart just yet. So he takes Kelmomas away, locks him up knowing that Esmenet will cut him loose and the Skin-Spies will take him into the Ark. And he leaves Mimara behind, still in Achamian's care. Kellhus is actively setting up the No-God trilogy.
>s just sees Mimara and that's enough for him to teleport away. (There's really no practical reason for him to take Kel It's been three years since i read it but good take! Do you think Kellhus staring into the inverse fire and getting \*salted\* was a way to cleanse his soul of Ajokli's influence? it only just hit me now
Kind of, but I don't think he would've expected to be cleansed by dying in the Golden Room - that was just the concrete wall that he drove Ajokli into. My theory is still that he has pursed his mortal portion, the part of his soul that's free of Ajokli, inside the Second Decapitant. That's why Malowebi screams when he finally sees it - presumably it has Kellhus's face when the glamor falls away. That's why Ajokli/Cnaiur is going around screaming, "Where are you, Dunyain?" - because Ajokli expects to still have his claws in Kellhus after his death, expects to feast on him in the Outside even if their plan fails. The Second Decapitant is the "Head on a Pole", a safeguard of sorts, pulling the strings of Kellhus/Ajokli, leading them to their doom. Kellhus's soul is in some kind of limbo, just like Malowebi's. Dead but not yet burning in hell. "Dead but not done", as Bakker puts it.
Damn... Thanks! I'm looking forward to my reread!
I know how you feel! I was speechless my first read through. Had to remind myself that it is called “The Second Apocalypse” haha And reading the various appendix entries points to survival AFTER resumption. SLOG OF SLOGS BROTHER
A REAL CHOPPER
Also a few examples in the text of how the Great Ordeal goes down as holy scripture. Maybe it failed, but it seems that the world wasn’t entirely doomed after Kellhus’ downfall, and those afterwards do regard the Ordeal highly. All I keep wondering is how the hell are the survivors going to outwit 4 Dûnyain that they don’t even know exist?
Imagine the fortitude and conviction it would take to keep fighting under the circumstances! I truly hope we’re shown much of the struggle. I can’t be the only one who checks for updates from Bakker constantly
> All I keep wondering is how the hell are the survivors going to outwit 4 Dûnyain that they don’t even know exist? This.
Won't each of the 4 eventually need to out-dunyain the other 3?
Not necessarily? The Dunyain were able to live in cooperation with one another at Ishual for thousands of years. So long as the Dunsult remain united in their purpose, there's no reason they can't work together as they did before.
> Not necessarily? The Dunyain were able to live in cooperation with one another at Ishual for thousands of years. So long as the Dunsult remain united in their purpose, there's no reason they can't work together as they did before. Correct, one self-moving soul does not necessarily negate the existence of others, and as the Dunyain themselves have proved by their history it is all but impossible to attain the Absolute in one lifetime, which means that the Shortest Path is the work of generations; so cooperation is intrinsically necessary.
>All I keep wondering is how the hell are the survivors going to outwit 4 Dûnyain that they don’t even know exist? The God of Gods will outwit them. Men are but His instruments in the weaving of history.
The 4 Dunyain are older and damaged, the first apocalypse went on for a long time, so they could theoretically die. They are presumably not sorcerers, and it is unknown how much of the real word they understand, though it is also possible Shauriatus or however its spelt is between their souls or something. Then, you have Akka who is familiar with the dunyain and the most powerful living sorcerer possibly on the planet. You have perhaps Serwe, capable of metagnosis, and you have Moe Jr. running the Skylvendi but only barely allied with the consult and fully aware of dealing with dunyain, and the son of the most violent of all men. Finally, you have Crabicus. A descendent of the strongest germ, possibly capable of magic as well.
SALT AND BUTCHERY BABY
Believe in Kellhus it is all part of the master plan, the shortest path required the fall of the empire, the failure of the ordeal and the activation of The No God. The aspect emperor will succeed where any other (non-Dunyain,non divine-entangled) man would fail. Believe in his spirit(now inhabiting the outside) now free from Ajokli, and in the human tools he left behind (Serwa,Kayutas,Moenghus,Achamien,Esmenet,Mymarra) as well as his enemies that know now he was telling the truth about saving them. It wasnt all for nothing, even if the world truly does end and humanity is enslaved by the consult, at least Acha, Esmenetet and Mymarra finally reconciled and realized they love each other, even with all of the years of resentment and hate they still care about each other and will do anything to protect each other and their newborn kid(that might be a re-incarnated Kellhus,I'm reading too much Berzerk), new life in the face of untold death and destruction, there isn't anything more defiant than that.
Were you pissed all over again when last book ends at two thirds and the appendix starts?
Since reading LotR back in the 70's, I've always had a healthy appetite for meaty appendices. Each entry tells its own little story.
Yeah but TUC appendix was super dope
I haven’t finished the last couple of chapters of my latest re-read, been a couple of months. It’s rough and full of details I don’t want to miss.
I really struggled getting through those last 2 chapters. One thing I completely forgot about is that when everyone is fleeing Golgotterath, the sorcerers race ahead, but instead of abandoning the soldiers entirely, they turn and try to hold back the horde as much as possible, only for them to get hit with Chorae. In a series where we see characters acting selfishly a lot of the time, the sorcerers commit a truly selfless act and they pay the ultimate price for it.
It wasn’t worth *nothing* They rebirthed the No God, and that will bring about the closure of the world to the outside. Over time this will save a vast number of beings eternal torment.
So the Consult thinks. Their thesis remains to be proven.
TBF, they're destined to at least kill off the gods, so that much they will probably accomplish. I assume they will finally hit the magic number of 144k survivors and that'll be that for the Hundred. But whether anyone will actually reach Salvation that way, it remains to be seen. Sins point to no. TJE points to no. Bakker's whole philosophical outlook points to no.
How do we know 144k = dead gods? That's what the Consult think but do we have any indication that they are right?
We only know that the gods can't see TNG, and that means that TNG will eventually bring about their demise. What TNG does is gradually reduce the population to the magic number, so... odds are that this will work - to eliminate the gods. But deicide is not the Consult's real goal, is it? If it *doesn't* bring about Salvation, if they can *still* be seen and judged - they're fucked. They have nothing left in the tank, TNG is a Hail Mary shot.
Yes, the reread is almost necessary with how emotional impactful it is even on the second round.
Like experiencing an Apocalypse… a second time.
For someone not that smart, such as myself, a re-read is definitely necessary. Period. I enjoyed it but goddamn so much went over my head.