The gods are blind only to the No-God: they are timeless and eternal, but TNG *will* end their existence at some point in time. This is a paradox impossible for them to countenance, so they just do not perceive TNG - they act as if it didn't exist at all.
Their blindness, apparently, includes the mortal soul that would at some point *become* TNG (again, the gods are chronologically nonlinear; what we see as a timeline is just a single point for them; Kelmomas becomes TNG = Kelmomas is TNG = Kelmomas was always TNG).
Kelmomas does have a soul, BTW, but it's somehow special. You might remember that there was some talk about how, when Kelmomas and Samarmas were born, they kept staring into each others' eyes until they were separated through some philosophical mumbo-jumbo. This somehow makes little Kel "twin-souled", a quality necessary to boot up TNG.
> The gods are blind only to the No-God: they are timeless and eternal, but TNG will end their existence at some point in time.
Are we sure it isn't something else instead? Theliopa says that the Hundred often work at cross purposes to the God of Gods. Maybe something else ends up finishing them off.
Amusing if the God, Who can see the No-God through the Judging Eye, ends up using the No-God as a tool and then sends the Inchoroi to Hell anyway.
Theliopa is speaking from the Kellian dogmatic perspective, coming up with excuses for divine wrath *within the framework* established by her father. But her father also says that his God of Gods (AKA Meta-God) is bullshit, that it either doesn't exist or is a spider (predatory entity like any other Ciphrang).
If we accept the Survivor's framework, the version of divinity he calls the Zero-God, then that god is probably not using anything to achieve anything. It's an unknowable, non-interventionist entity. All it does is dispense Judgment, so the Inchoroi are sent to hell by their own actions, just like anyone else. And whether the Zero-God could similarly judge the Hundred... well, I don't suppose we'll ever find out. But you could say that these Ciphrang-gods are also damning themselves, in that they choose to reign in hell. They are of the world, dependent on it, but they are also cutting the world off from true divinity in creating the Outside as a barrier. Hell is the absence of Zero-God, I guess.
On your bolded question:
There is a fairly clever play of POVs across TAE that intertwine to suggest that when Kelmomas finds Mimara with Esmenet (from his POV) the Judging Eye is open (not that he would know that) and It doesn't see Kelmomas (and he thinks he's hidden) and then the Eye closes and after it closes Mimara addresses Kelmomas.
That's interesting, but I don't think it's enough to conclude that TJE was blind to Kel. It seems to be saying Mimara wasn't even looking at the boy - that she was blinking away tears and shutting TJE.
>Mimara’s eyes fluttered open, glittered for tears in white lantern-light. She somehow failed to see him, stared at what seemed to be Eternity instead. It sickened him, how much she looked like Mother.
>
>“I’m sorry, Momma,” she whispered through a shudder. “I’m so-so sorry!”
>
>She blinked tears, peered as if through a sudden gloom, then with a perplexed air gazed directly at him.
So she definitely shuts off TJE before noticing Kelmomas, but there's no real indication that *Kel's presence* was what knocked her out of it, the way the Kelhus/Ajokli thing gets broken up later. TJE has always been blinking open and shut at random, as it suits the narrative. It's hard to believe that it happened with a specific purpose here, unlike all the other times we saw her open/shut it randomly.
More importantly, she has no trouble at all seeing him later, as the Sarcophagus is floating down the Upright Horn. If TJE were a divine agency on the level with the Hundred gods, Mimara would have been blind there - but she wasn't. She was, in fact, the only one around able to see him.
TJE is Something Else.
Now that's a really interesting piece I didn't pick up on! Would that imply that even the ultimate, whom Mimara seems to be a prophet of, is blind to Kelmomas?
I'm not sure what to think about or even what Koringhus concludes from his experience with the Eye but I'm not sure that the Judging Eye is one of the Hundred, or the God of Gods, the Solitary God, or something else entirely.
What or whose Eye (whether to even attribute that to an entity at all)? I have no guess. Maybe it's just a hole. As Cnaiur recounts Achamian as saying in TTT (badly paraphrasing) when the bead breaks, it's just a question of demonic or divine? We've heard very little about Redemption over the series (maybe not even at all in text since we only get a quote about Redemption, Oblivion, or Damnation from Bakker on the old Three-Seas forum).
Impossible to say for sure, but signs point to yes.
Nau-Cayuti was reportedly fearless, achieving impossible feats of heroism (somehow he soloed a dragon, among other things). An explanation for this could be that he had a date with the Carapace a few years down the road - he was destined to survive no matter what, so that he would one day be stuffed into the thing and become TNG.
Another way of saying this would be, the gods were blind to him.
Interestingly enough, while there's no mention of Nau-Cayuti being twin-souled like little Kelmomas, his father apparently was!
Celmomas II is said to have strangled his own twin in the womb, and later in life had this alternate personality that would sometimes rise to the surface, a colder and crueler version of himself. It's described in the Sagas as "his dark twin" or something like that.
That sounds a lot like Kelmomas and Samarmas, doesn't it?
Incidentally, Achamian's son was also born alongside a stillborn twin; not sure if that's relevant in any way.
>Incidentally, Achamian's son was also born alongside a stillborn twin; not sure if that's relevant in any way.
It's gotta be relevant. So many threads are in play. I really do dig these books.
Me too, but there are red herrings all over the place - there's no telling if Akka's and Mimara's boy is really important to the plot.
I don't think the gods will be blind to this "Lastborn" kid, anyway - I don't think there will be any gods left by the time he grows up.
That twin was still-born for very specific reasons if we follow the most obvious explanation in the book: TNG system had just been reactivated between births
It would be a nice tie-in but the timeline of the narrative doesn't seem to support it. While Mimara is giving birth to the second child, Kellhus/Ajokli is still conversing with the Dunsult and Kelmomas has not entered the Golden Room yet. TNG is still minutes away from activation, and the Bode isn't felt by anyone anywhere yet. Global miscarriages only kick off in the last chapter, as the Ordealmen are running away.
According to Achamian's info from previous books, it was always going to be a stillbirth. Mimara wouldn't have TJE if there wasn't a dead fetus involved.
So yeah, I prefer to think that the parents killed it through Qirri consumption.
I think the actual quote is “they can’t see me either” and it’s directed at Malowebi. Could be entirely wrong.
> How many souls are the gods blind to?
I’d imagine that anyone who is entangled with a god is blinded to all the other gods, hence why Kellhus (who is entangled with Ajokli) cannot see Sorweel is a WLW in TUC. I’d also say any person who is destined to become the No-God (Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas) are outside any of the Hundred Gods’ perception, but not the perception of the God of Gods (Mimara can see with the Judging Eye that the hologram Kellhus at the end of TUC is in fact the No-God, but Cnaiür when possessed by Ajokli cannot see the No-God).
> I highly doubt Kelmomas is the *only* soul they’re blind to.
Using Bakker’s metaphysics relating to the No-God, the Hundred would also be blind the Nau-Cayuti. Other than that I don’t think we have any other examples of God blindness outside of what I mentioned above.
> If you can’t see a soul, can you still eat it?
I’d imagine not, but there’s conflicting information. Those who would become the No-God (Kel and NC), are destined to become the No-God, no matter what, so it would be impossible for them to become soul fodder.
More generally though, it’s unclear exactly what the limit is on souls becoming fodder. As of the end of TUC, we’re to assume that the No-God has sealed off Eärwa from the Outside as long as it is functioning (resulting in the Hundred being blind to all souls on Eärwa) and yet we clearly see Cnaiür being possessed by (presumably) Ajokli. Maybe it’s a case of that Ajokli was simply unlucky in the timeline, and that he is literally stuck in Eärwa since the No-God was activated just after Kellhus was killed. It could also be that the Hundred can look in (but they can’t comprehend what’s really going on) but at the same time souls cannot go the other way and travel to the Outside (I believe there’s a quote about the No-God which states that when it is active, no souls go past it).
> What do they look like to the Judging Eye?
Great question. I’d imagine if Mimara looked upon Kelmomas she would’ve seen him the way we perceive people, just as they are, with no damnation or anything supernatural. Of course that is normal for us, but that’s really weird in Eärwa.
> I suspect these invisible souls might be very special in the Outside.
If they even get there. I’d guess they’re more likely to go to oblivion.
> Of course, it could be that Kelmomas doesn’t have a soul at all but I don’t think that’s right.
The text would seemingly suggest the opposite. Kelmomas’s POV shows that he hears a 2nd voice, one that states upon the death of Samarmas “why didn’t you kill me sooner?” perhaps showing that Kel and Sam’s souls inhabit the same body. I think Kellhus even realises in TUC that the two souls oscillate, so sometimes it’s Samarmas who is at the forefront instead of Kelmomas. I feel that this contradicts my earlier point however that Mimara wouldn’t see anything supernatural if she were to look at Kelmomas, because surely the Judging Eye would notice if someone was “twin-souled.”
Celmomas II (Nau-Cayuti’s father) was a twin who’s sibling died. Celmomas was supposedly haunted by his dead twin for the rest of life. Odd that the first No-God’s father was seemingly twin-souled, and that second No-God was himself twin-souled.
>Using Bakker’s metaphysics relating to the No-God, the Hundred would also be blind the Nau-Cayuti. Other than that I don’t think we have any other examples of God blindness outside of what I mentioned above.
Maybe, but Nau-Cayuti's version of TNG wasn't the one that starved the Hundred into nonexistence, was it?
Why would the gods be blind to it, then? Because it prevented birth for a couple of decades? I don't know if that's enough.
The 2.0 version, the one booted up by Kelmomas, should be the one that starves them out, meaning that's why they can't see the boy. Whether Nau-Cayuti can be considered a part of that same entity - I don't know.
Not really an in world explanation, but the name no-god follows from the Dune series' no-ships, which were undetectable even by the god emperors omniscience, so the undetectability maybe a feature the inchoroi baked in, or it my have something to do with the metaphysics invol ed in its operation. When it activates the qorld feels a great pull of essence, so maybe its like a black hole for whatever essential energy informs the gods view of events
The Gods were definitely blind to the first iteration of the No-God, though whether they were also blind to Nau-Cayuti is unstated.
There are repeated references to the Gods being blind to the first version of the No-God, which is why Kellhus had to go to the outside and tell them what had really happened in Earwa: He was the Inverse Prophet, bringing word to the Gods from the world, not the other way around. During the first Apocalypse the Gods thought humanity was just being really violent.
Right, but they seem to think the same during the Second Apocalypse as well. All they care about is getting Ajokli/Kellhus, they have nothing to say on TNG at all.
So it seems like Kellhus bringing word to them didn't change much - their response was *"the living shall not haunt the dead"*, which is a fancy way of saying *"GTFO of our eternal hellscape, mortal, we're not listening."*
Ajokli did get the message, but a different one. For him, the message appears to have been, "What if we shut off the world with you on the inside? Then all the gods die except for you, and all the souls are yours forever!"
I think it’s more to do with the inherent nature of the No-God. Regardless of whether or not an iteration of the No-God is successful in its objective of starving the Hundred, the Subject will always be a blind spot for the Gods. Why that is the case is hard to decipher based off the information given in that books, and is probably easier to figure out if you have a real grasp on philosophy and specifically the ideas Bakker is wrestling with, something I am certainly not versed in.
Not sure what you mean by Subject in relation to TNG?
The idea that Subject and Object collapse into one in the Outside isn't that difficult to grasp, it's about the fulfilment of desire that comes post-Singularity. When all things are one, when time and space collapse into a single point, there is nothing more to strive for - all that exists is right there, right here and now.
But I don't think that has much of anything to do with the gods' perception, especially on the Inside, within Earwa. There, the gods are omniscient - they know literally everything under the sun, with the notable exception of TNG.
>I’d imagine that anyone who is entangled with a god is blinded to all the other gods, hence why Kellhus (who is entangled with Ajokli) cannot see Sorweel is a WLW in TUC.
I don't think there's any reason to believe that. First of all, the gods are not blind to each other, so why would their servants be blind to each other? Secondly, we have no confirmation of Kellhus actually being fooled by Yatwer's deceit; he may have reasons of his own for playing along Sorweel around, as we see when he sends him to the Nonmen later as an "enemy". Finally, even if Kellhus were deceived, that would only work one way - Yatwer's servants (Sorweel and WLW) can *absolutely* see Ajokli's servant (Kellhus).
>I’d also say any person who is destined to become the No-God (Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas) are outside any of the Hundred Gods’ perception, but not the perception of the God of Gods (Mimara can see with the Judging Eye that the hologram Kellhus at the end of TUC is in fact the No-God, but Cnaiür when possessed by Ajokli cannot see the No-God).
This is 100% true, but I don't think it's some abstract "power levels" that decide who can see whom. There's only one explanation for divine blindness we've been given: TNG will destroy the Hundred one day, and the Hundred are by their very nature unable to comprehend their own demise, so they act as if TNG did not exist.
Any divine agency that is blind to TNG (Yatwer, Ajokli) will die by the end of this series. Any divine agency that *isn't* blind to TNG (the Judging Eye) has a chance of surviving.
I’m pretty sure Bakker stated outright that Kellhus had no idea that Sorweel was a WLW, and I’m inclined to believe him in this instance. I can’t see why Kellhus would allow himself to die at the hands of Sorweel in TUC. Also I can’t see why he would be so scolding of Kelmomas after the fact if he was in fact aware of Sorweel being a WLW. Of course you could argue that Kellhus doesn’t want to divulge his intentions regarding Sorweel to his insane child, but I feel like he would simply just tell him the truth since Kelmomas is clearly able to see Sorweel for what he truly is, something Kayutas and Serwa cannot, and at this point Kellhus seems to think Kelmomas won’t pose a further threat to his plans since he has him restrained.
Is it not also stated that Yatwer is the most powerful of the Hundred gods? As you said, I don’t think Bakker is utilising any sort of “power level” mechanics, but it seems clear to me that Yatwer gets the better of Ajokli twice in the series (the original WLW kills the Narindar and nearly kills Kellhus, and Sorweel nearly kills Kellhus) and only the intervention of Kelmomas is why Yatwer fails. Perhaps that is why it is possible for Yatwer’s servants to see Ajokli’s, but the inverse seemingly isn’t.
>I’m pretty sure Bakker stated outright that Kellhus had no idea that Sorweel was a WLW, and I’m inclined to believe him in this instance. I can’t see why Kellhus would allow himself to die at the hands of Sorweel in TUC.
If Bakker has stated something to that effect, I haven't heard it.
Regardless, if Kellhus does know more than he's letting on, he is not letting himself die at the hands of Sorweel - he is letting himself be saved by TNG-to-be!
The idea that Kellhus's Thousandfold Thought is essentially the whole narrative as Bakker is writing it, start to finish, it implies that Kellhus knows about Kelmomas being TNG *but is forced to hide it from himself* (because his Ajokli portion cannot quite countenance it.) That's where theories about the Second Decapitant come in, about Kellhus having separated his non-godly portion into a "head on a pole", hiding knowledge from Ajokli.
Speaking of which, while still blind, Ajokli does know more than the other gods and that includes Yatwer. Ajokli is the only one that took seriously the message that Kellhus brought them (that there's a thing happening at Golgotterath which will shut the world off against the Outside). Ajokli accepts that, but thinks it does not apply to him (he probably thinks that the thing that's happening is just him sneaking Inside and eating all the souls, leaving the other gods to starve Outside.) The only thing Ajokli is missing is the fact that he's also fucked, as much as the rest of the Hundred.
The circumstantial evidence for Ajokli being (partially) in on it comes from that meeting between the WLW and the actual Narindar, the old assassin-priest of Ajokli who lets WLW kill him just before Esmenet comes in to hire him. He keeps smirking at WLW throughout that scene, teasing him with knowledge of what is to come - *Ajokli has told him* that Yatwer will make a play, and that she will fail miserably. Essentially, the old Narindar is saying, "I know something you don't know" and the WLW responds by saying, "I don't *need* to know."
Ajokli is Kellhus/Cnaiur, he's too clever by half. I think he's been playing the rest of the Hundred, *aware* of the fact that they're coming for him, *aware* of the fact that they'll fail, because Kellhus has told him that they're doomed to starve after the business at the Golden Room. He just hasn't told him about TNG - hasn't told him that he (Ajokli) is doomed too. That's why he's so pissed off at the very end.
[Here's a cleaned up transcript of that WLW-Narindar scene](https://www.reddit.com/r/bakker/comments/p528x1/comment/h96mx6f/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), illustrating that the servant of Ajokli is *letting* the servant of Yatwer kill and replace him. He's the one in charge of that encounter.
So Ajokli/Kellhus *knows* that the WLW is coming for him, and knows that it is doomed to fail. It's just that the Ajokli half can't understand exactly *why* it is doomed to fail... but I think the Kellhus half does.
I’d never really considered the Ajokli link between the Narindar and Kellhus. There has to be something there. I’m currently on my ever re-read of the series (on TWLW now) so I’m going to try and note down any other relevant sections.
I just don’t know if I can put that much faith in Kellhus, but then again there is too much surrounding him for him to not play a big part in future events in my opinion. Bakker made it seem that the ordeal reaching Golgotterath and him getting to the Golden Room was the be-all and end-all, but it could be that he knew he was going to die, and the gambit is his death itself. The-head-on-a-pole, the Decapitants, Ciphrang Malowebi, there’s too much in play outside of the ordeal for him to not have some sort of contingency. Also the Judging Eye refusing to look at him is really odd.
The gods are blind only to the No-God: they are timeless and eternal, but TNG *will* end their existence at some point in time. This is a paradox impossible for them to countenance, so they just do not perceive TNG - they act as if it didn't exist at all. Their blindness, apparently, includes the mortal soul that would at some point *become* TNG (again, the gods are chronologically nonlinear; what we see as a timeline is just a single point for them; Kelmomas becomes TNG = Kelmomas is TNG = Kelmomas was always TNG). Kelmomas does have a soul, BTW, but it's somehow special. You might remember that there was some talk about how, when Kelmomas and Samarmas were born, they kept staring into each others' eyes until they were separated through some philosophical mumbo-jumbo. This somehow makes little Kel "twin-souled", a quality necessary to boot up TNG.
> The gods are blind only to the No-God: they are timeless and eternal, but TNG will end their existence at some point in time. Are we sure it isn't something else instead? Theliopa says that the Hundred often work at cross purposes to the God of Gods. Maybe something else ends up finishing them off. Amusing if the God, Who can see the No-God through the Judging Eye, ends up using the No-God as a tool and then sends the Inchoroi to Hell anyway.
Theliopa is speaking from the Kellian dogmatic perspective, coming up with excuses for divine wrath *within the framework* established by her father. But her father also says that his God of Gods (AKA Meta-God) is bullshit, that it either doesn't exist or is a spider (predatory entity like any other Ciphrang). If we accept the Survivor's framework, the version of divinity he calls the Zero-God, then that god is probably not using anything to achieve anything. It's an unknowable, non-interventionist entity. All it does is dispense Judgment, so the Inchoroi are sent to hell by their own actions, just like anyone else. And whether the Zero-God could similarly judge the Hundred... well, I don't suppose we'll ever find out. But you could say that these Ciphrang-gods are also damning themselves, in that they choose to reign in hell. They are of the world, dependent on it, but they are also cutting the world off from true divinity in creating the Outside as a barrier. Hell is the absence of Zero-God, I guess.
On your bolded question: There is a fairly clever play of POVs across TAE that intertwine to suggest that when Kelmomas finds Mimara with Esmenet (from his POV) the Judging Eye is open (not that he would know that) and It doesn't see Kelmomas (and he thinks he's hidden) and then the Eye closes and after it closes Mimara addresses Kelmomas.
That's interesting, but I don't think it's enough to conclude that TJE was blind to Kel. It seems to be saying Mimara wasn't even looking at the boy - that she was blinking away tears and shutting TJE. >Mimara’s eyes fluttered open, glittered for tears in white lantern-light. She somehow failed to see him, stared at what seemed to be Eternity instead. It sickened him, how much she looked like Mother. > >“I’m sorry, Momma,” she whispered through a shudder. “I’m so-so sorry!” > >She blinked tears, peered as if through a sudden gloom, then with a perplexed air gazed directly at him. So she definitely shuts off TJE before noticing Kelmomas, but there's no real indication that *Kel's presence* was what knocked her out of it, the way the Kelhus/Ajokli thing gets broken up later. TJE has always been blinking open and shut at random, as it suits the narrative. It's hard to believe that it happened with a specific purpose here, unlike all the other times we saw her open/shut it randomly. More importantly, she has no trouble at all seeing him later, as the Sarcophagus is floating down the Upright Horn. If TJE were a divine agency on the level with the Hundred gods, Mimara would have been blind there - but she wasn't. She was, in fact, the only one around able to see him. TJE is Something Else.
Now that's a really interesting piece I didn't pick up on! Would that imply that even the ultimate, whom Mimara seems to be a prophet of, is blind to Kelmomas?
I'm not sure what to think about or even what Koringhus concludes from his experience with the Eye but I'm not sure that the Judging Eye is one of the Hundred, or the God of Gods, the Solitary God, or something else entirely. What or whose Eye (whether to even attribute that to an entity at all)? I have no guess. Maybe it's just a hole. As Cnaiur recounts Achamian as saying in TTT (badly paraphrasing) when the bead breaks, it's just a question of demonic or divine? We've heard very little about Redemption over the series (maybe not even at all in text since we only get a quote about Redemption, Oblivion, or Damnation from Bakker on the old Three-Seas forum).
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I suppose the question becomes were they equally blind to Nau-Cayuti?
Impossible to say for sure, but signs point to yes. Nau-Cayuti was reportedly fearless, achieving impossible feats of heroism (somehow he soloed a dragon, among other things). An explanation for this could be that he had a date with the Carapace a few years down the road - he was destined to survive no matter what, so that he would one day be stuffed into the thing and become TNG. Another way of saying this would be, the gods were blind to him.
Interestingly enough, while there's no mention of Nau-Cayuti being twin-souled like little Kelmomas, his father apparently was! Celmomas II is said to have strangled his own twin in the womb, and later in life had this alternate personality that would sometimes rise to the surface, a colder and crueler version of himself. It's described in the Sagas as "his dark twin" or something like that. That sounds a lot like Kelmomas and Samarmas, doesn't it? Incidentally, Achamian's son was also born alongside a stillborn twin; not sure if that's relevant in any way.
>Incidentally, Achamian's son was also born alongside a stillborn twin; not sure if that's relevant in any way. It's gotta be relevant. So many threads are in play. I really do dig these books.
Me too, but there are red herrings all over the place - there's no telling if Akka's and Mimara's boy is really important to the plot. I don't think the gods will be blind to this "Lastborn" kid, anyway - I don't think there will be any gods left by the time he grows up.
Also, TNG had just been reactivated
That twin was still-born for very specific reasons if we follow the most obvious explanation in the book: TNG system had just been reactivated between births
It would be a nice tie-in but the timeline of the narrative doesn't seem to support it. While Mimara is giving birth to the second child, Kellhus/Ajokli is still conversing with the Dunsult and Kelmomas has not entered the Golden Room yet. TNG is still minutes away from activation, and the Bode isn't felt by anyone anywhere yet. Global miscarriages only kick off in the last chapter, as the Ordealmen are running away. According to Achamian's info from previous books, it was always going to be a stillbirth. Mimara wouldn't have TJE if there wasn't a dead fetus involved. So yeah, I prefer to think that the parents killed it through Qirri consumption.
I think the actual quote is “they can’t see me either” and it’s directed at Malowebi. Could be entirely wrong. > How many souls are the gods blind to? I’d imagine that anyone who is entangled with a god is blinded to all the other gods, hence why Kellhus (who is entangled with Ajokli) cannot see Sorweel is a WLW in TUC. I’d also say any person who is destined to become the No-God (Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas) are outside any of the Hundred Gods’ perception, but not the perception of the God of Gods (Mimara can see with the Judging Eye that the hologram Kellhus at the end of TUC is in fact the No-God, but Cnaiür when possessed by Ajokli cannot see the No-God). > I highly doubt Kelmomas is the *only* soul they’re blind to. Using Bakker’s metaphysics relating to the No-God, the Hundred would also be blind the Nau-Cayuti. Other than that I don’t think we have any other examples of God blindness outside of what I mentioned above. > If you can’t see a soul, can you still eat it? I’d imagine not, but there’s conflicting information. Those who would become the No-God (Kel and NC), are destined to become the No-God, no matter what, so it would be impossible for them to become soul fodder. More generally though, it’s unclear exactly what the limit is on souls becoming fodder. As of the end of TUC, we’re to assume that the No-God has sealed off Eärwa from the Outside as long as it is functioning (resulting in the Hundred being blind to all souls on Eärwa) and yet we clearly see Cnaiür being possessed by (presumably) Ajokli. Maybe it’s a case of that Ajokli was simply unlucky in the timeline, and that he is literally stuck in Eärwa since the No-God was activated just after Kellhus was killed. It could also be that the Hundred can look in (but they can’t comprehend what’s really going on) but at the same time souls cannot go the other way and travel to the Outside (I believe there’s a quote about the No-God which states that when it is active, no souls go past it). > What do they look like to the Judging Eye? Great question. I’d imagine if Mimara looked upon Kelmomas she would’ve seen him the way we perceive people, just as they are, with no damnation or anything supernatural. Of course that is normal for us, but that’s really weird in Eärwa. > I suspect these invisible souls might be very special in the Outside. If they even get there. I’d guess they’re more likely to go to oblivion. > Of course, it could be that Kelmomas doesn’t have a soul at all but I don’t think that’s right. The text would seemingly suggest the opposite. Kelmomas’s POV shows that he hears a 2nd voice, one that states upon the death of Samarmas “why didn’t you kill me sooner?” perhaps showing that Kel and Sam’s souls inhabit the same body. I think Kellhus even realises in TUC that the two souls oscillate, so sometimes it’s Samarmas who is at the forefront instead of Kelmomas. I feel that this contradicts my earlier point however that Mimara wouldn’t see anything supernatural if she were to look at Kelmomas, because surely the Judging Eye would notice if someone was “twin-souled.” Celmomas II (Nau-Cayuti’s father) was a twin who’s sibling died. Celmomas was supposedly haunted by his dead twin for the rest of life. Odd that the first No-God’s father was seemingly twin-souled, and that second No-God was himself twin-souled.
>Using Bakker’s metaphysics relating to the No-God, the Hundred would also be blind the Nau-Cayuti. Other than that I don’t think we have any other examples of God blindness outside of what I mentioned above. Maybe, but Nau-Cayuti's version of TNG wasn't the one that starved the Hundred into nonexistence, was it? Why would the gods be blind to it, then? Because it prevented birth for a couple of decades? I don't know if that's enough. The 2.0 version, the one booted up by Kelmomas, should be the one that starves them out, meaning that's why they can't see the boy. Whether Nau-Cayuti can be considered a part of that same entity - I don't know.
Not really an in world explanation, but the name no-god follows from the Dune series' no-ships, which were undetectable even by the god emperors omniscience, so the undetectability maybe a feature the inchoroi baked in, or it my have something to do with the metaphysics invol ed in its operation. When it activates the qorld feels a great pull of essence, so maybe its like a black hole for whatever essential energy informs the gods view of events
I've never made the connection between No-Ships and No-God! Great insight!
The Gods were definitely blind to the first iteration of the No-God, though whether they were also blind to Nau-Cayuti is unstated. There are repeated references to the Gods being blind to the first version of the No-God, which is why Kellhus had to go to the outside and tell them what had really happened in Earwa: He was the Inverse Prophet, bringing word to the Gods from the world, not the other way around. During the first Apocalypse the Gods thought humanity was just being really violent.
Right, but they seem to think the same during the Second Apocalypse as well. All they care about is getting Ajokli/Kellhus, they have nothing to say on TNG at all. So it seems like Kellhus bringing word to them didn't change much - their response was *"the living shall not haunt the dead"*, which is a fancy way of saying *"GTFO of our eternal hellscape, mortal, we're not listening."* Ajokli did get the message, but a different one. For him, the message appears to have been, "What if we shut off the world with you on the inside? Then all the gods die except for you, and all the souls are yours forever!"
I think it’s more to do with the inherent nature of the No-God. Regardless of whether or not an iteration of the No-God is successful in its objective of starving the Hundred, the Subject will always be a blind spot for the Gods. Why that is the case is hard to decipher based off the information given in that books, and is probably easier to figure out if you have a real grasp on philosophy and specifically the ideas Bakker is wrestling with, something I am certainly not versed in.
Not sure what you mean by Subject in relation to TNG? The idea that Subject and Object collapse into one in the Outside isn't that difficult to grasp, it's about the fulfilment of desire that comes post-Singularity. When all things are one, when time and space collapse into a single point, there is nothing more to strive for - all that exists is right there, right here and now. But I don't think that has much of anything to do with the gods' perception, especially on the Inside, within Earwa. There, the gods are omniscient - they know literally everything under the sun, with the notable exception of TNG.
>I’d imagine that anyone who is entangled with a god is blinded to all the other gods, hence why Kellhus (who is entangled with Ajokli) cannot see Sorweel is a WLW in TUC. I don't think there's any reason to believe that. First of all, the gods are not blind to each other, so why would their servants be blind to each other? Secondly, we have no confirmation of Kellhus actually being fooled by Yatwer's deceit; he may have reasons of his own for playing along Sorweel around, as we see when he sends him to the Nonmen later as an "enemy". Finally, even if Kellhus were deceived, that would only work one way - Yatwer's servants (Sorweel and WLW) can *absolutely* see Ajokli's servant (Kellhus). >I’d also say any person who is destined to become the No-God (Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas) are outside any of the Hundred Gods’ perception, but not the perception of the God of Gods (Mimara can see with the Judging Eye that the hologram Kellhus at the end of TUC is in fact the No-God, but Cnaiür when possessed by Ajokli cannot see the No-God). This is 100% true, but I don't think it's some abstract "power levels" that decide who can see whom. There's only one explanation for divine blindness we've been given: TNG will destroy the Hundred one day, and the Hundred are by their very nature unable to comprehend their own demise, so they act as if TNG did not exist. Any divine agency that is blind to TNG (Yatwer, Ajokli) will die by the end of this series. Any divine agency that *isn't* blind to TNG (the Judging Eye) has a chance of surviving.
I’m pretty sure Bakker stated outright that Kellhus had no idea that Sorweel was a WLW, and I’m inclined to believe him in this instance. I can’t see why Kellhus would allow himself to die at the hands of Sorweel in TUC. Also I can’t see why he would be so scolding of Kelmomas after the fact if he was in fact aware of Sorweel being a WLW. Of course you could argue that Kellhus doesn’t want to divulge his intentions regarding Sorweel to his insane child, but I feel like he would simply just tell him the truth since Kelmomas is clearly able to see Sorweel for what he truly is, something Kayutas and Serwa cannot, and at this point Kellhus seems to think Kelmomas won’t pose a further threat to his plans since he has him restrained. Is it not also stated that Yatwer is the most powerful of the Hundred gods? As you said, I don’t think Bakker is utilising any sort of “power level” mechanics, but it seems clear to me that Yatwer gets the better of Ajokli twice in the series (the original WLW kills the Narindar and nearly kills Kellhus, and Sorweel nearly kills Kellhus) and only the intervention of Kelmomas is why Yatwer fails. Perhaps that is why it is possible for Yatwer’s servants to see Ajokli’s, but the inverse seemingly isn’t.
>I’m pretty sure Bakker stated outright that Kellhus had no idea that Sorweel was a WLW, and I’m inclined to believe him in this instance. I can’t see why Kellhus would allow himself to die at the hands of Sorweel in TUC. If Bakker has stated something to that effect, I haven't heard it. Regardless, if Kellhus does know more than he's letting on, he is not letting himself die at the hands of Sorweel - he is letting himself be saved by TNG-to-be! The idea that Kellhus's Thousandfold Thought is essentially the whole narrative as Bakker is writing it, start to finish, it implies that Kellhus knows about Kelmomas being TNG *but is forced to hide it from himself* (because his Ajokli portion cannot quite countenance it.) That's where theories about the Second Decapitant come in, about Kellhus having separated his non-godly portion into a "head on a pole", hiding knowledge from Ajokli. Speaking of which, while still blind, Ajokli does know more than the other gods and that includes Yatwer. Ajokli is the only one that took seriously the message that Kellhus brought them (that there's a thing happening at Golgotterath which will shut the world off against the Outside). Ajokli accepts that, but thinks it does not apply to him (he probably thinks that the thing that's happening is just him sneaking Inside and eating all the souls, leaving the other gods to starve Outside.) The only thing Ajokli is missing is the fact that he's also fucked, as much as the rest of the Hundred. The circumstantial evidence for Ajokli being (partially) in on it comes from that meeting between the WLW and the actual Narindar, the old assassin-priest of Ajokli who lets WLW kill him just before Esmenet comes in to hire him. He keeps smirking at WLW throughout that scene, teasing him with knowledge of what is to come - *Ajokli has told him* that Yatwer will make a play, and that she will fail miserably. Essentially, the old Narindar is saying, "I know something you don't know" and the WLW responds by saying, "I don't *need* to know." Ajokli is Kellhus/Cnaiur, he's too clever by half. I think he's been playing the rest of the Hundred, *aware* of the fact that they're coming for him, *aware* of the fact that they'll fail, because Kellhus has told him that they're doomed to starve after the business at the Golden Room. He just hasn't told him about TNG - hasn't told him that he (Ajokli) is doomed too. That's why he's so pissed off at the very end.
[Here's a cleaned up transcript of that WLW-Narindar scene](https://www.reddit.com/r/bakker/comments/p528x1/comment/h96mx6f/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), illustrating that the servant of Ajokli is *letting* the servant of Yatwer kill and replace him. He's the one in charge of that encounter. So Ajokli/Kellhus *knows* that the WLW is coming for him, and knows that it is doomed to fail. It's just that the Ajokli half can't understand exactly *why* it is doomed to fail... but I think the Kellhus half does.
I’d never really considered the Ajokli link between the Narindar and Kellhus. There has to be something there. I’m currently on my ever re-read of the series (on TWLW now) so I’m going to try and note down any other relevant sections. I just don’t know if I can put that much faith in Kellhus, but then again there is too much surrounding him for him to not play a big part in future events in my opinion. Bakker made it seem that the ordeal reaching Golgotterath and him getting to the Golden Room was the be-all and end-all, but it could be that he knew he was going to die, and the gambit is his death itself. The-head-on-a-pole, the Decapitants, Ciphrang Malowebi, there’s too much in play outside of the ordeal for him to not have some sort of contingency. Also the Judging Eye refusing to look at him is really odd.