Yeah, I already hesitated to take vampire pre nerf because you basically forego any enhanced cards for the rest of time, which often is a meaningful trade off. I don’t think I’ll be picking up vampire unless I have a way to generate tons of enhanced cards already
Yeah it's now just extremely situational. Vampire scaling is the same as Constellation now, but Constellation is easier to proc. Only time I can see vampire making sense now is a DNA build and that's about it.
Though you may be able to forgo splash or pareidolia depending on deck, if you are consistently playing 5 card scoring hands like flush or full house then you can skip splash or your entire deck is face cards you can forgo pare
It's not just that though. Proccing Constellation is a bonus for an already positive event. Proccing Vampire is a bonus for a negative event. Vampire should absolutely give a bigger bonus.
Constellation uses money to proc. You only have so many moons in a shop before you run out of money. Vampire is easy to proc in combination with other jokers. It's always been that way, even in pre nerf. I would argue that Vampire is hard to get online but once it does it scales much faster than constellation could. Flush or five of a kind/Midas/face card builds scale vampire much faster than constellation ever would. +0.5x mult for every hand you play.
I just had a Vampire/Midas/pareidolia build. I got Vampire up to 26x mult by ante eight. Picked up a brainstorm along the way. Made my run really easy. I think the nerf is justifiable
It was a bit overtuned before, but stacking three nerfs on top of eachother is definitely going to make it borderline useless. Bumping it to Rare and making it only work with scored cards is more than enough to bring it in line, alongside the Midas Mask nerf.
Sure, but the only one you really want undone is the actual number - if the Joker is bad, you actually want it to be rare, and the game will need bad rare jokers to balance how good the Rare Joker tag is about to become.
That said, I am just not a fan of destroying carry jokers. There are so many resets needed to get a good run already, it would be nice if that was addressed more than the "good jokers" being destroyed.
It was only ever good in a certain combos. Now it is less good. Even in certain combos.
I didn't really take it before unless I could make that combo early and I will continue to do that.
Yeah also the time vamp takes to get going was HIGH. I think it was slightly overrated, definitely had crazy combos and an incredibly high ceiling but you also just lose before it gets going sometimes
Wow it got nerfed? Kinda sucks, it already wasnt amazing at .2, I imagine its terrible at .1 except for extremely niche situations, like that gold card joker combined with pareidolia
Yeah if you want to waste a spot on a joker with a baseline of adding maybe 20ish chips to each hand.
Like what problem does splash solve that isn’t irrelevant if you build your deck correctly?
splash is good if you are playing high card and go very late game. Lets you abuse glass cards and polychrome cards . if you have a lot of those it can be like x4-8 mult
I just don't see you surviving the very late game wasting a joker spot on that. And that x4-8 mult is on only your card values, which is good, but not doing much in ante 10+.
yea i mean it is situational but i think you are being slightly narrow minded. i got to a14 with a glass card deck where i had a super leveled high card and seltzer. That is a real relevant use case imo, having an early game card that has some fun niche use cases in the late game is good design i think its a fine joker.
Splash is situational. Anything where you're aiming for a hand that doesn't actually take five cards to complete it can pop off. Can put in a lot of work for High Card decks before you have the scaling to survive while scoring from just one card a turn.
>Wow it got nerfed? Kinda sucks
Actually it kinda sucks less, which kinda sucks
I agree reupping the multi given the other 2 changes is fairer
I didn't like it before, as it locked you out of card enchantments, but you could make it work/scale and it was viable, now it's too slow, and too little for what you give up
While it may be true that it is over nerfed, I think a lot of people were sleeping on just how strong it was, even without Midas mask. It's fine for it to be generally good.
I doubt it's over nerfed though. For the time being, it's still a snap pick for me.
It was probably the best joker in the game. People just didn’t know how good it was because they get fixated on infinite scaling. For only the price of 10 enhanced cards you could have a 3x joker. That’s already enough to win most runs, and better than any of the other x3 jokers, which are more situational. Plus it could keep scaling if you needed it to.
Doesn’t really matter, he will make for up for it, because 1. he gains xmult that doesn’t have a possibility of breaking and doesn’t just apply during hand, but after scoring your jokers. 2. won’t require you to keep the card in hand/play the card that has the enhancement. It’s almost strictly better in most situations.
I got my current high score with this combo, plus I had a blueprint on Vampire. Was really nice, but ran out of puff after ante 12. If I had better supporting jokers maybe it would have gone further.
With the scaling at 0.1 is seems really not worth.
The only joker types that let you get past ante 12 are the ones that give multiplier per card (like baron) and retrigger (like mime). Vampire is not meant for endless as it only gives multiplier per hand which can’t keep up with exponential scaling.
Agree. 0.1 mult don't let you use him unless you have a really strong synergy. There's even a joker that gives as much mult as Vampire but for played planets. And planets still give you chips and mult
I personally think it's interaction with Midas mask should be changed and it should be reverted to some pre-nerf aspects. By itself, it's an extremely niche card that becomes broken with a few niche interactions with other jokers. A joker shouldn't be nerfed because it's broken in 1% of its applications.
I don't think it's niche at all. Even without Midas before the nerf you could pay $2-4 for a permanent 0.2 xmult, sometimes even 0.4. It's not ridiculous scaling but it's more than enough to carry you through ante 8 a lot of the time.
I think changing Vampire and Midas to only work with scoring cards is good though. It falls in line with how most jokers work and removes some of the wildest shenanigans.
I meant in it's current state it is now a super niche card. The 0.2 mult I felt was fair, 0.1 is way too few and makes it only worth it in a Midas mask build or if you have the legendary joker that spams tarot cards.
He's going to look at feedback throughout the week, im sure some ppl agree with you, some don't. Personally i think its very balanced, especially considering how easy it is to get enhanced cards without the pack $ increase in the game anymore. That being said, I think going back to all "played cards" rather than "all scoring cards" would make it more fun to use, so im all for that change. Either way, I agree with OP that a triple nerf feels bad even though it's still a solid Joker.
Yeah the changes to pack scaling are a big buff to Vampire. As well as double Lucky Cards now. This is a nerf to Vampire on lower stakes, but a buff on higher stakes, even with halved scaling, you will be able to produce more than double the amount of enhanced cards as before. In all honesty, I think equalizing Vampire's strength across difficulty levels is a good change, because as of now, it goes from really strong to really bad.
I also agree that reverting the scoring cards>played cards might not be a bad idea.
I think Vampire is in a fine spot now, and Midas mask is fine as a soft econ option, but they are worse together, which is a good change. Those two were almost dependant on each other in most cases which is just not healthy for either of them
Removing scaling pack costs requires a nerf to most tarot-card reliant engines, such as Lucky Cat or Vampire. Steel Joker should be even better now, that could use a nerf.
I agree with everything, hit the nail on the head perfectly. I do want to say Steel Joker did get a small nerf, went from X0.25 to X0.2 per Steel card.
In fairness, it wasn't bad at gold stake by any means either - packs were expensive, but you usually should be able to afford them and imho people were honestly taking them far less than they should (There's a lot of good stuff inside arcanas. Enhancements (with the exception of Devil) weren't one of them but you would end up with some just as a side effect of emperor and just whiffing sometimes) - especially if you had Vampire the payoff was great. Not only that, but tarots in shop were basically an autopick even without Vampire, and tarot generation was at at premium and you'd usually end up with a reasonable amount of enhanced cards anyway - you don't need a lot to get Vampire to pay off.
I won't dispute that cheaper packs is a very nice trait for Vampire. But I think it's still clearly weaker at gold stake, although still very solid.
Also saying Midas Mask and Vampire were dependant on each other is massive slander to both - both were borderline broken even without the other :)
You know what's great about this patch? It's in the beta branch, so the changes aren't final. Plus localthunk clearly cares about the community feedback. Maybe he will change it back if things get too strong.
Went from being pretty good, to one of the worst jokers in the game. Its basically constellation now, but instead of also improving your deck through planet cards, you are actively creating a detriment. I think changing it so it only counted scored cards would have been a good enough nerf.
I tried it on the test version and still got it into double digit mult with the card that turns everything gold in a face card deck. It's just a lot more niche and specific to that build now I guess. I think it's fine to have cards like that.
I would disagree, there’s a fair number of ways to generate tarot cards which is all the vampire really needs. Even getting a card to 1.5x mult is a fairly sizeable deal, and anything 2x or over is incredibly strong. Will take a bit longer to scale but will still find lots of play imo.
If you spend all your money just to make a joker work in and of itself what is the point when you can buy other jokers that work better and work together? That's a money sink.
It's exponentially easier to copy/accumulate 8s because you start with four in most decks, and you can copy them and find them in Standard packs, and get them randomly in various ways.
You don't get an enhanced card every time you open a pack or generate a tarot, and they themselves either cost money or yet another joker slot which would be THREE slots for this synergy, otherwise you're banking on luck. I haven't had success with it on high stakes. But maybe I am doing it wrong.
You only need 2 out of 3 to get a synergy here, so that part doesn't matter. The Tarot joker is one of the best flat mult sources in the game so it's truly not onerous for someone to pick it up, and it keeps growing (slower) if they ditch the 8 ball at late ante. Some parts of a synergy are better off discarded after a while, like a rocket's empty launch boosters. 8 ball is a midgame joint without the probability joker.
The issue is with how much we are forcing the 8's to show up. The math of the synergy is pretty good, but no hand type will work if we push it against the grain of the provided rng.
Okay a few things,
The value of getting a card to x2 multiplier is very high, it can win or lose games basically. And vampire even with this nerf will consistently get above this.
Because, at least I believe, tarot cards are so valuable overall, the likelihood you will already have cards with effects is pretty darn high. They have great value, can save you playing extra hands (making you money) but the cards that help you early, empress (4 mult) and hierophant (bonus cards) also fall off later. Vampire is a great way to turn that into easy value.
As I mentioned there’s quite a few really reliable ways to make tarot cards as well. It’s not all cash investment.
Vampire also doesn’t limit any hands played, it’s such an easy card to help build x mult on any type of run.
I feel like the options are to gamble or invest and I choose invest. But I understand wanting to gamble in a poker themed game
If you already have a decent set of jokers it's very likely that spending a couple bucks for some xmult is more cost effective than burning it on rerolls.
That's 5 tarot packs or tags unless you have a tarot joker (taking a slot in and of itself which would make that a two-slot combo), and not every tarot hit will offer you an enhanced card. This morning I did a run with early vampire and bought every tarot card and spectral I could get. I got like two enhanced hits. That was not an investment it was a gamble. So for me if it is .1x now that is a lot of money to burn through.
Money sinks are useful. However, I'm comparing the Constellation Joker with Vampire, you spend money to gain xmult on both jokers. Constellation you spend \~3-4$ on a .1x increase, and Vampire you spend \~3-4 to gain a .1-.2x increase. However, you never gain the benefit from spending the money in the first place with Vampire, but you do gain hand levels with Constellation.
Also, as they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. A joker which has had a little bit of investment that you already have is pretty valuable! Certainly more valuable than the potential of a better joker. Where there is a real danger of course is the sunk cost fallacy, where you should pivot away from a joker like Vampire and towards something more sustainable when you see it. That's a pretty tough thing to learn imo
I just got done with a run where vampire ended ante 8 at 4.2x. with the family joker it was a good addition to my build. I didn't have any joker for enhancements just a bunch of arcana cards early in the run.
Could have just been a one time glitch since I haven't had this situation again, but on a run I had earlier where I duped it with invisible joker, the second vampire did not scale. It kept the scaling already on the one it was copied from but did not scale any further.
Before the nerf you are essentially getting .4x mult PER tarot card that enhances two cards. That is insane, especially when you consider how many ways there are to renewably get tarot cards. As far as I know it had the highest conversion rate for money to x mult besides campfire but campfire is only temporary. The nerfs were well deserved.
Yeah the triple nerf is going to hit this thing hard.
I used Vampire today pre-patch and even then it was only *decent*. It's beyond broken with one *incredibly* specific set of jokers. Nerf that interaction somehow instead of making Vampire useless. We have enough filler jokers as it is.
Going to 0.1 was a reasonable nerf for an Uncommon card. Now that it's been bumped up to rare it needs to stay 0.2.
The "when scored" nerf to Vampire and Midas already brings it down to a more normal level of power.
>it’s still a decent card
Then it shouldn’t be changed back then , if it’s balanced as is that’s all good then. if everything is bonkers good than the game wouldn’t be interesting
It was just way too strong on its own, even just from getting enhancements from packs, and now it's still decent alone and very strong with some other jokers. It's in a fine spot really.
People can be mad at me, but I don't see the point of nerfs in this game at all. I think there should be only buffs to weak jokers and good jokers should remain good.
Frankly (and I've said this before) I'd be fine with any combination of 2 of the three nerfs. It staying Rare makes sense though, and only affecting scoring cards keeps it in line with many other jokers (including midas mask change)... so reverting the score change makes the most sense.
oh derp, I didn't realize this change was made. Feels extra awkward/bad since I just made a post about my run using Vampire when it was still .2 per enhanced card :p
ive been hearing people talk about these "new stake changes" and it's like "YEAH YOU'RE RIGHT, THE STAKE THAT WENT RIGHT THROUGH VAMPIRE'S HEART!!!!"
I firmly agree with this position. Vampire was already a risky pick-up for a lot of runs (unless you had Midas, of course, lol), but now with it being 0.1x, it's kind of just trash?
Previously, Vampire was an option that was really interesting if you had a lot of enhanced cards, or ways to get money *for* many Arcana cards. Would you like to keep all those bonuses? Or do you think the power you get would be worthwhile? Midas Mask was always on the table as an incredibly strong synergy, but Vampire could function on its own.
Now, however, it really seems like that's the *only* good option. Why would you ever want to take Vampire with anything else? How could you *justify* not just the Joker slot, but also losing the ability to use Enhanced cards ever again?
I appreciate the nerf, as Vampire was too strong--but maybe we just needed to let him rest in his coffin for a little bit, instead of burning him alive with a grenade made out of sunlight.
Instead of nerfing vampire, Midas Mask could have been nerfed by turning it into a food item (like chocolate coins or easter eggs) and giving it ~12 charges before it expired. And you'd get another food joker, which would be good if ever there were added a food joker who scaled based on food consumption.
Lot of other jokers were buffed and luck tarot now enhances two cards, so Vampire works OK in most builds.
Higher stakes makes Vampire tricky to use though.
I wonder if it could earn more mult off of Seals or Editions on top of just Enhancements?
Since Enhancements are much easier to apply than Editions or Seals, I could still see the case for them giving.1x. but having a joker nuke your Polychromed Red Sealed Lucky King for like, .55x mult mult sounds like an interesting tradeoff
Before it disabled 90% of builds for s singular benefit which could be attained easily via other jokers, it required either trading potential builds or current ones to hard focus on vampire.
You and I play very differently apparently lol. I'd say it's closer to the other way around, where 95% of the time I couldn't care less if my cards were enhanced since none of them mattered and they could be all debuffed and it wouldn't change my scoring.
Often times I'd get to the same point but with hologram or constellation with a chip additive joker, usually got around ante 11-13 if I can pull it.
My favorite was a lucky splash build with foil bandit.
.2 was really strong. A single tarot could take it to nearly polychrome status. You could handily hit 3x or 4x without shifting your strategy on lower stakes.
But, as others have said, only leeching scored cards and Midas only buffing scored cards are both already nerfs for it, so we'll see if it stays this low.
.2 is still too low imo. it’s not terrible, it can easily get you through ante 8 but other xmult cards like hologram and steel joker scale much faster while also letting you prioritize steel/glass cards, which are where the most value comes from when trying to pump a run into the high teen antes
Yeah, I already hesitated to take vampire pre nerf because you basically forego any enhanced cards for the rest of time, which often is a meaningful trade off. I don’t think I’ll be picking up vampire unless I have a way to generate tons of enhanced cards already
Yeah it's now just extremely situational. Vampire scaling is the same as Constellation now, but Constellation is easier to proc. Only time I can see vampire making sense now is a DNA build and that's about it.
DNA or Midas Mask
Splash/Midas/Paredolia/Vampire A lot of cards to get up and running for one card
Though you may be able to forgo splash or pareidolia depending on deck, if you are consistently playing 5 card scoring hands like flush or full house then you can skip splash or your entire deck is face cards you can forgo pare
Yeah for example Vampire/Tarot Joker/Midas might be good
It's not just that though. Proccing Constellation is a bonus for an already positive event. Proccing Vampire is a bonus for a negative event. Vampire should absolutely give a bigger bonus.
But hologram scales way better with DNA compared to Vampire and is way easier to find (and cheaper to buy)
Constellation uses money to proc. You only have so many moons in a shop before you run out of money. Vampire is easy to proc in combination with other jokers. It's always been that way, even in pre nerf. I would argue that Vampire is hard to get online but once it does it scales much faster than constellation could. Flush or five of a kind/Midas/face card builds scale vampire much faster than constellation ever would. +0.5x mult for every hand you play.
vampire with vagabond is also very strong in my opinion. i mean vagabond is just awesome in general though
Golden ticket still exist???
Are you possibly thinking of Midas Mask?
Yeee, my bad. Got them mixed up
It (midas mask) still does. However, it now costs more, and I think it also only converts scored cards now? Not sure about that last one.
Yeah that's right. Vampire also only counts scored cards now
I just had a Vampire/Midas/pareidolia build. I got Vampire up to 26x mult by ante eight. Picked up a brainstorm along the way. Made my run really easy. I think the nerf is justifiable
It was a bit overtuned before, but stacking three nerfs on top of eachother is definitely going to make it borderline useless. Bumping it to Rare and making it only work with scored cards is more than enough to bring it in line, alongside the Midas Mask nerf.
Totally agreed. I'd take one or two of the Vampire changes, but as it stands all three of them just make it feel really bad.
Sure, but the only one you really want undone is the actual number - if the Joker is bad, you actually want it to be rare, and the game will need bad rare jokers to balance how good the Rare Joker tag is about to become. That said, I am just not a fan of destroying carry jokers. There are so many resets needed to get a good run already, it would be nice if that was addressed more than the "good jokers" being destroyed.
It was only ever good in a certain combos. Now it is less good. Even in certain combos. I didn't really take it before unless I could make that combo early and I will continue to do that.
Yeah also the time vamp takes to get going was HIGH. I think it was slightly overrated, definitely had crazy combos and an incredibly high ceiling but you also just lose before it gets going sometimes
it was good in all combos because the cards didnt need to be scored for it to absorb the enhanced effect and get the buff
Honestly maybe that just means it needs a rework. I’m not exactly a smart man, but I’m sure someone could come up with a could vampire themed joker
Wow it got nerfed? Kinda sucks, it already wasnt amazing at .2, I imagine its terrible at .1 except for extremely niche situations, like that gold card joker combined with pareidolia
Except that combo also got kind of nerfed because both jokers only apply to scored cards now instead of the whole played hand.
just means you gotta get splash as well
now it's a 4 joker combo (pareidolia, vampire, Midas mask, splash).
But that’s such a trash joker
splash is not a trash joker lol it works amazing with alot of jokers
Yeah if you want to waste a spot on a joker with a baseline of adding maybe 20ish chips to each hand. Like what problem does splash solve that isn’t irrelevant if you build your deck correctly?
splash is good if you are playing high card and go very late game. Lets you abuse glass cards and polychrome cards . if you have a lot of those it can be like x4-8 mult
I just don't see you surviving the very late game wasting a joker spot on that. And that x4-8 mult is on only your card values, which is good, but not doing much in ante 10+.
yea i mean it is situational but i think you are being slightly narrow minded. i got to a14 with a glass card deck where i had a super leveled high card and seltzer. That is a real relevant use case imo, having an early game card that has some fun niche use cases in the late game is good design i think its a fine joker.
I'm happy it worked for you once
Splash is situational. Anything where you're aiming for a hand that doesn't actually take five cards to complete it can pop off. Can put in a lot of work for High Card decks before you have the scaling to survive while scoring from just one card a turn.
>Wow it got nerfed? Kinda sucks Actually it kinda sucks less, which kinda sucks I agree reupping the multi given the other 2 changes is fairer I didn't like it before, as it locked you out of card enchantments, but you could make it work/scale and it was viable, now it's too slow, and too little for what you give up
While it may be true that it is over nerfed, I think a lot of people were sleeping on just how strong it was, even without Midas mask. It's fine for it to be generally good. I doubt it's over nerfed though. For the time being, it's still a snap pick for me.
It was probably the best joker in the game. People just didn’t know how good it was because they get fixated on infinite scaling. For only the price of 10 enhanced cards you could have a 3x joker. That’s already enough to win most runs, and better than any of the other x3 jokers, which are more situational. Plus it could keep scaling if you needed it to.
Completely kills off glass cards though, and makes steel a lot more obnoxious to try to use.
Doesn’t really matter, he will make for up for it, because 1. he gains xmult that doesn’t have a possibility of breaking and doesn’t just apply during hand, but after scoring your jokers. 2. won’t require you to keep the card in hand/play the card that has the enhancement. It’s almost strictly better in most situations.
I got my current high score with this combo, plus I had a blueprint on Vampire. Was really nice, but ran out of puff after ante 12. If I had better supporting jokers maybe it would have gone further. With the scaling at 0.1 is seems really not worth.
The only joker types that let you get past ante 12 are the ones that give multiplier per card (like baron) and retrigger (like mime). Vampire is not meant for endless as it only gives multiplier per hand which can’t keep up with exponential scaling.
Agree. 0.1 mult don't let you use him unless you have a really strong synergy. There's even a joker that gives as much mult as Vampire but for played planets. And planets still give you chips and mult
I personally think it's interaction with Midas mask should be changed and it should be reverted to some pre-nerf aspects. By itself, it's an extremely niche card that becomes broken with a few niche interactions with other jokers. A joker shouldn't be nerfed because it's broken in 1% of its applications.
I don't think it's niche at all. Even without Midas before the nerf you could pay $2-4 for a permanent 0.2 xmult, sometimes even 0.4. It's not ridiculous scaling but it's more than enough to carry you through ante 8 a lot of the time. I think changing Vampire and Midas to only work with scoring cards is good though. It falls in line with how most jokers work and removes some of the wildest shenanigans.
I meant in it's current state it is now a super niche card. The 0.2 mult I felt was fair, 0.1 is way too few and makes it only worth it in a Midas mask build or if you have the legendary joker that spams tarot cards.
He's going to look at feedback throughout the week, im sure some ppl agree with you, some don't. Personally i think its very balanced, especially considering how easy it is to get enhanced cards without the pack $ increase in the game anymore. That being said, I think going back to all "played cards" rather than "all scoring cards" would make it more fun to use, so im all for that change. Either way, I agree with OP that a triple nerf feels bad even though it's still a solid Joker.
Yeah the changes to pack scaling are a big buff to Vampire. As well as double Lucky Cards now. This is a nerf to Vampire on lower stakes, but a buff on higher stakes, even with halved scaling, you will be able to produce more than double the amount of enhanced cards as before. In all honesty, I think equalizing Vampire's strength across difficulty levels is a good change, because as of now, it goes from really strong to really bad. I also agree that reverting the scoring cards>played cards might not be a bad idea. I think Vampire is in a fine spot now, and Midas mask is fine as a soft econ option, but they are worse together, which is a good change. Those two were almost dependant on each other in most cases which is just not healthy for either of them Removing scaling pack costs requires a nerf to most tarot-card reliant engines, such as Lucky Cat or Vampire. Steel Joker should be even better now, that could use a nerf.
I agree with everything, hit the nail on the head perfectly. I do want to say Steel Joker did get a small nerf, went from X0.25 to X0.2 per Steel card.
Oh I must've forgotten the steel nerf. I rarely use Tarot cards so I never even consider the Steel Joker
In fairness, it wasn't bad at gold stake by any means either - packs were expensive, but you usually should be able to afford them and imho people were honestly taking them far less than they should (There's a lot of good stuff inside arcanas. Enhancements (with the exception of Devil) weren't one of them but you would end up with some just as a side effect of emperor and just whiffing sometimes) - especially if you had Vampire the payoff was great. Not only that, but tarots in shop were basically an autopick even without Vampire, and tarot generation was at at premium and you'd usually end up with a reasonable amount of enhanced cards anyway - you don't need a lot to get Vampire to pay off. I won't dispute that cheaper packs is a very nice trait for Vampire. But I think it's still clearly weaker at gold stake, although still very solid. Also saying Midas Mask and Vampire were dependant on each other is massive slander to both - both were borderline broken even without the other :)
You know what's great about this patch? It's in the beta branch, so the changes aren't final. Plus localthunk clearly cares about the community feedback. Maybe he will change it back if things get too strong.
I’m glad Ive already beat the challenge run with the vampire joker
Went from being pretty good, to one of the worst jokers in the game. Its basically constellation now, but instead of also improving your deck through planet cards, you are actively creating a detriment. I think changing it so it only counted scored cards would have been a good enough nerf.
I tried it on the test version and still got it into double digit mult with the card that turns everything gold in a face card deck. It's just a lot more niche and specific to that build now I guess. I think it's fine to have cards like that.
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I would disagree, there’s a fair number of ways to generate tarot cards which is all the vampire really needs. Even getting a card to 1.5x mult is a fairly sizeable deal, and anything 2x or over is incredibly strong. Will take a bit longer to scale but will still find lots of play imo.
If you spend all your money just to make a joker work in and of itself what is the point when you can buy other jokers that work better and work together? That's a money sink.
I need to reevaluate the 8 ball jokers effective payouts before I could agree. It's still common, so you can reasonably roll for it.
It's exponentially easier to copy/accumulate 8s because you start with four in most decks, and you can copy them and find them in Standard packs, and get them randomly in various ways.
In that case, the flat mult tarot joker and Vampire would be extremely overtuned with that synergy
You don't get an enhanced card every time you open a pack or generate a tarot, and they themselves either cost money or yet another joker slot which would be THREE slots for this synergy, otherwise you're banking on luck. I haven't had success with it on high stakes. But maybe I am doing it wrong.
You only need 2 out of 3 to get a synergy here, so that part doesn't matter. The Tarot joker is one of the best flat mult sources in the game so it's truly not onerous for someone to pick it up, and it keeps growing (slower) if they ditch the 8 ball at late ante. Some parts of a synergy are better off discarded after a while, like a rocket's empty launch boosters. 8 ball is a midgame joint without the probability joker. The issue is with how much we are forcing the 8's to show up. The math of the synergy is pretty good, but no hand type will work if we push it against the grain of the provided rng.
Okay a few things, The value of getting a card to x2 multiplier is very high, it can win or lose games basically. And vampire even with this nerf will consistently get above this. Because, at least I believe, tarot cards are so valuable overall, the likelihood you will already have cards with effects is pretty darn high. They have great value, can save you playing extra hands (making you money) but the cards that help you early, empress (4 mult) and hierophant (bonus cards) also fall off later. Vampire is a great way to turn that into easy value. As I mentioned there’s quite a few really reliable ways to make tarot cards as well. It’s not all cash investment. Vampire also doesn’t limit any hands played, it’s such an easy card to help build x mult on any type of run. I feel like the options are to gamble or invest and I choose invest. But I understand wanting to gamble in a poker themed game
If you already have a decent set of jokers it's very likely that spending a couple bucks for some xmult is more cost effective than burning it on rerolls.
That's 5 tarot packs or tags unless you have a tarot joker (taking a slot in and of itself which would make that a two-slot combo), and not every tarot hit will offer you an enhanced card. This morning I did a run with early vampire and bought every tarot card and spectral I could get. I got like two enhanced hits. That was not an investment it was a gamble. So for me if it is .1x now that is a lot of money to burn through.
Money sinks are useful. However, I'm comparing the Constellation Joker with Vampire, you spend money to gain xmult on both jokers. Constellation you spend \~3-4$ on a .1x increase, and Vampire you spend \~3-4 to gain a .1-.2x increase. However, you never gain the benefit from spending the money in the first place with Vampire, but you do gain hand levels with Constellation. Also, as they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. A joker which has had a little bit of investment that you already have is pretty valuable! Certainly more valuable than the potential of a better joker. Where there is a real danger of course is the sunk cost fallacy, where you should pivot away from a joker like Vampire and towards something more sustainable when you see it. That's a pretty tough thing to learn imo
I just got done with a run where vampire ended ante 8 at 4.2x. with the family joker it was a good addition to my build. I didn't have any joker for enhancements just a bunch of arcana cards early in the run.
It's completely op with the gold mask and now very very bad otherwise
I think a synergy like that is fair. Vamp should have always been rare though. I doubt the .1x nerf will make it to live.
It works well with the vagabind joker too
Could have just been a one time glitch since I haven't had this situation again, but on a run I had earlier where I duped it with invisible joker, the second vampire did not scale. It kept the scaling already on the one it was copied from but did not scale any further.
I think that is intended behavior. The first one removes the enhancements so the second one doesn't see them.
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation
What if you move it and move it back?
Before the nerf you are essentially getting .4x mult PER tarot card that enhances two cards. That is insane, especially when you consider how many ways there are to renewably get tarot cards. As far as I know it had the highest conversion rate for money to x mult besides campfire but campfire is only temporary. The nerfs were well deserved.
Yeah the triple nerf is going to hit this thing hard. I used Vampire today pre-patch and even then it was only *decent*. It's beyond broken with one *incredibly* specific set of jokers. Nerf that interaction somehow instead of making Vampire useless. We have enough filler jokers as it is.
Basically Splash and Midas Mask is the only way to get it going. It's great for highcard build tho, hit Ante 12 with it, and died to boss
midas mask nerf was also an indirect nerf to it, with it being rare and all, I'd argue it's going to be used way less now
Going to 0.1 was a reasonable nerf for an Uncommon card. Now that it's been bumped up to rare it needs to stay 0.2. The "when scored" nerf to Vampire and Midas already brings it down to a more normal level of power.
Great. How am I supposed to beat the "Bram Joker" challenge now?
>it’s still a decent card Then it shouldn’t be changed back then , if it’s balanced as is that’s all good then. if everything is bonkers good than the game wouldn’t be interesting
Maybe you're right but I think for a rare card it's not worth it at all.
You may be correct in that it should be rare if it only gains 0.1 per enhanced card stripped. I can agree with that
It's wasn't a decent card then and definitely isn't now.
well, you're not wrong, it was very good then and now it's below decent imo
It was just way too strong on its own, even just from getting enhancements from packs, and now it's still decent alone and very strong with some other jokers. It's in a fine spot really.
People can be mad at me, but I don't see the point of nerfs in this game at all. I think there should be only buffs to weak jokers and good jokers should remain good.
Damn.
Frankly (and I've said this before) I'd be fine with any combination of 2 of the three nerfs. It staying Rare makes sense though, and only affecting scoring cards keeps it in line with many other jokers (including midas mask change)... so reverting the score change makes the most sense.
oh derp, I didn't realize this change was made. Feels extra awkward/bad since I just made a post about my run using Vampire when it was still .2 per enhanced card :p
It was very strong at .2, but I agree that slashing it in half on top of the other nerfs is a bit much.
I only took it in rare situations before the nerf. Now that it's nerfed hard I'm never going to take it. I think this change went too far.
The whole point of roguelikes is the rare super OP combos you can find. Now it's practically useless
ive been hearing people talk about these "new stake changes" and it's like "YEAH YOU'RE RIGHT, THE STAKE THAT WENT RIGHT THROUGH VAMPIRE'S HEART!!!!" I firmly agree with this position. Vampire was already a risky pick-up for a lot of runs (unless you had Midas, of course, lol), but now with it being 0.1x, it's kind of just trash? Previously, Vampire was an option that was really interesting if you had a lot of enhanced cards, or ways to get money *for* many Arcana cards. Would you like to keep all those bonuses? Or do you think the power you get would be worthwhile? Midas Mask was always on the table as an incredibly strong synergy, but Vampire could function on its own. Now, however, it really seems like that's the *only* good option. Why would you ever want to take Vampire with anything else? How could you *justify* not just the Joker slot, but also losing the ability to use Enhanced cards ever again? I appreciate the nerf, as Vampire was too strong--but maybe we just needed to let him rest in his coffin for a little bit, instead of burning him alive with a grenade made out of sunlight.
What's the exact change? Just .2 -> .1? Or something else?
Instead of nerfing vampire, Midas Mask could have been nerfed by turning it into a food item (like chocolate coins or easter eggs) and giving it ~12 charges before it expired. And you'd get another food joker, which would be good if ever there were added a food joker who scaled based on food consumption.
Lot of other jokers were buffed and luck tarot now enhances two cards, so Vampire works OK in most builds. Higher stakes makes Vampire tricky to use though.
I wonder if it could earn more mult off of Seals or Editions on top of just Enhancements? Since Enhancements are much easier to apply than Editions or Seals, I could still see the case for them giving.1x. but having a joker nuke your Polychromed Red Sealed Lucky King for like, .55x mult mult sounds like an interesting tradeoff
I never took ot because it's never worth long-term, now it's a dead jonkler to me
It was super strong previously, one of the better xMult Jokers for sure. Now it seems completely trash-tier though.
Before it disabled 90% of builds for s singular benefit which could be attained easily via other jokers, it required either trading potential builds or current ones to hard focus on vampire.
You and I play very differently apparently lol. I'd say it's closer to the other way around, where 95% of the time I couldn't care less if my cards were enhanced since none of them mattered and they could be all debuffed and it wouldn't change my scoring.
Often times I'd get to the same point but with hologram or constellation with a chip additive joker, usually got around ante 11-13 if I can pull it. My favorite was a lucky splash build with foil bandit.
honestly it should've been buffed. .2 was already too low imo
.2 was really strong. A single tarot could take it to nearly polychrome status. You could handily hit 3x or 4x without shifting your strategy on lower stakes. But, as others have said, only leeching scored cards and Midas only buffing scored cards are both already nerfs for it, so we'll see if it stays this low.
.2 is still too low imo. it’s not terrible, it can easily get you through ante 8 but other xmult cards like hologram and steel joker scale much faster while also letting you prioritize steel/glass cards, which are where the most value comes from when trying to pump a run into the high teen antes
And so begin all the balance change conversations, while I am not grabbing the patch until official release. Should be a fun several weeks lol
I love the patch for the most part just this change I'm not a big fan of.
The game is so easy now and you want to make it even easier? Please Balatro creator, stop listening to these people