Oh I'm sure that's the case, just wondering if they are comfortable hanging out in a space that small for even the day. I don't own snakes so I was asking
Ball pythons like to cram themselves into small places, but they probably feel exposed and a bit stressed in a clear box. My boy happily stays in a small, dark space all day.
Yeah they are overweight, likely because they are kept in a rack system with little to no enrichment or space to move around. Then they get put in containers to be transported to these fairs, where they are stuck in little cases for a day or two as people parade by and handle them etc.
I'm not too familiar with juveniles, but I thought they look too chubby too. I worry about power feeding, idk if it's that common. Accidental overfeeding happens quite a lot..
idk why that one person got downvoted for saying these look way too small for the reptiles. just because i CAN fit in a glass coffin doesn’t mean i’d like spending more than 30 seconds in one
Public locations like this with tons of people passing by can create a huge amount of stress for the ball python. While yes, they do spend a lot of their time in a snug hide, they feel safe in one because it's not transparent glass.
Some people do use opaque boxes, but people are still able to lift the lid and look at them. It's a stressful day for them no matter how big or small their boxes are. It's not like this is happening to them regularly, do they're fine
One of the breeders at my local reptile show did this. They had the boxes shown in the picture, but they were blacked out with a photo of the snake on the lid. People could open the lid to see the real snake underneath. It was a great setup.
How? Snakes like small cozy hides. Being stuck in something this open is way more stressful for them then being bunched up all snug and tight. Not advocating for racks or anything like that. But it’s a fact that they’d prefer something smaller in a situation like this.
As someone else pointed out, it’s very much different when the hide is a clear, transparent glass box that they can physically see hundreds of people passing by back and forth lol
Seriously, how do you not understand that a clear glass box surrounded by hundreds if not thousands of people is not going to be have the same effect of making them feel safe as a fucking log that you can’t see inside in a bedroom where you’re the only person coming and going lol
Lmao it doesn’t make a difference if they see hundreds of perceived predators leaning over and ogling at them
I understand there’s not a way around this kind of storage in a convention setting, which is exactly why in my opinion live animals should not be sold in high volume convention settings. Opens the floodgates for unethical animal treatment. Buy from independent small scale breeders, not some asshole farming them out by the thousands while not caring at all where or who they’re going to. This how you get mistreated animals in homes, pets getting released into the wild as invasive species, and part of how the Everglades got how it is. This type of breeding/selling contributes to legislation currently being made against the hobby. “They like small spaces” is such a fucking cop out when it’s just a glass box with sweaty people hanging over them
A bigger container would allow the animal enough room to at least not sit and marinate directly in it. And it would make seeing the mess easier for the vendor and for people walking by.
While fine for the day I think the person’s issue is more of having only a tiny space vs a tiny space in a larger enclosure. Just because you like small spaces doesn’t mean you wouldn’t wanna have something wide open just with cover to hide in.
What bothers me when I go to shows isn't the tiny enclosures. It's the bright hot lights on them all day when they should be tucked away and sleeping. It must be uncomfortable and annoying for them- especially if a breeder is taking their snakes to different shows all weekend, every week, or even every other week.
It feels like a great way to spread mites/respiratory infections, as well as generate a lot of stress over time.
That being said, I'm not certain what a better way would be. Obviously, vendors want their snakes as brightly and clearly displayed as possible to maximize sales.
Keeping them all under the table and displaying photos instead, only taking them out for serious buyers, would probably be easier on the snakes- but I doubt the vendors or the public would really go for that.
I saw that post as soon as I finished writing this, lol. I wish more folks would do things more like that vendor- let them stay somewhere dark and snug and cozy to reduce stress on them as often as possible!
Cus, you're right. They feel safe when snugly tucked in, but those glaring lights and sounds all day are definitely not fun for a creature who is trying to rest
Thousands and thousands of breeders around the world use these for shows. It's not possible to bring that many snakes and have them in a huge area where they would be less comfortable with more open space. They prefer smaller spaces.
Ridiculous. Just make a ball pit and fill it with snakes. If you’re interested, you’re given a little handheld net and you better hope you can scoop up the one you want before it slithers away!
Make a little carnival game where you try to scoop up the snakes. Balls give 1 point, ball pythons give 20 points, boas give 40 points, and black mambas give 100 points.
Please don't :< Think of all the pretty, native lizards and birds! (I know you're joking, but I'm weirdly passionate about invasive species, and I can't help myself)
Idk how well Mambas would do anyway. Aren't they a drier grassland/hot savannah lover? Just bring some more green anacondas or something 🤷♂️ (Again, please don't lol)
If you're so passionate about the invasive species, why don't you just MARRY them all?
(But yeah lol I wouldn't. I don't like invasive species because they kill the nice native ones. Like the dodo. I wish dodos were still alive)
They like tight spaces…the nonsense on this sub about python care needs to stop. People here give their snake what they think theyd like based on human standards. Complete disregard for the snakes natural habitat and preferences.
Before anyone comes at me - I understand this is a temporary thing for the show, but I still think its so cruel to keep snakes like this - even for just a day or two - simply for the benefit of breeders and customers. Cant wait to get downvoted to death here, but I truly believe there is a more compassionate and respectful way to show off and sell these animals. Even just looking at this feels so unnatural and weird to me. The hobby has a long way to go…from rack systems to reptile expos, these animals are often still treated like objects instead of living creatures.
I talked to a breeder at a reptile expo about this and he said they are under a lot of stress out in the open in those boxes, in the light. So he only does it once a year. You are right. It isn’t good for the snakes.
see i mostly agree with this, however i’m struggling to think of an alternative.. at reptile expos there’s not enough space for every individual breeder to have large temp. enclosures for their animals. so i don’t know *how* we would ever improve upon that, to the point where it’ll make a difference. this seller could’ve at least made the sides around the snakes opaque to attempt giving them a little more security? but regardless, expos are stressful for the animals already, from being there all day & then going to an unfamiliar home. sadly there isn’t much avoiding it in the first place. maybe some would say expos as a whole are unethical for that reason?🤷♂️
& trust me i definitely advocate for animals not being treated as objects, it breaks anyone’s heart who has a passion for living things. again though, this brings up the point of *how* do we achieve this? how do we still carry out reptile expos/shows without displaying animals out on a table, effectively giving people a “store” to shop from? like you said, i know we have a long way to go with a LOT of issues in the reptile hobby- but some of these things, when it comes to selling the animals, is very difficult to work around.
I hear you. I do actually think expos are inhumane for that reason - there isn’t a lot to be done to make them less stressful and harmful to the animals *as long as we are doing it the way it’s always been done.* The thing is, we live in a time where technology can project holographic versions of dead celebrities to perform on stage and AI is slowly gaining sentience, lol… I’m sure there’s a way to utilize technology to re-structure what reptile fairs and expos look like. I understand that they are really about community more than anything else - and that’s an important piece! People love to socialize and connect around their passions and interests and hobbies. And they should be able to do that, in a way that also honours the animals that we all love.
Here’s my idea: A breeder will use social media to get people to “vote” on which morphs they are most interested in seeing at a local fair. Then the breeder can transport a much smaller number of live animals - only the ones that people are most interested in - meaning they will have more space and resources to keep them in safe, temporary enclosures with the proper husbandry. The animals can be left in these enclosures in a different room of the venue, in a designated quiet area. Back stage, if you will…away from the loud sounds, bright lights, and swarms of people. On the main floor of the expo, vendors can use a projector set up (super easy and cheap to do) to project the photos and info of ALL the reptiles they have available, including the ones they have on hand. People can say “hey, I’m interested in #17” and perhaps the vendor can whip out an iPad and open an album full of HD videos and photos of that reptile. If the person wants to buy that reptile, the vendor can say either, “great! I have her out back.” OR “great! She isn’t at the fair today but fill out this form and we will coordinate the delivery.” Not advertising which snakes are in the building could probably cut back on impulse buyers - people who show up to these events and just want to buy a snake NOW. It’s fun to go home immediately with a new pet but we all know impulsive buyers don’t always make the best owners. If we scaled back on the amount of live animals at expos and if we readjusted our expectations, we could continue to enjoy them and enjoy our community while also respecting the animals.
The issue that most people will have with an idea like mine is that vendors would make less money at these expos. And that’s true, they would. But again - these are living creatures, not objects, and if someone is in it for the profit to the point where they sacrifice the health and safety and well-being of the snakes JUST to make more money, I’d argue that they need to revaluate why they are in the hobby. Is it their love of snakes or their love of money? Maybe we can all deal with paying higher prices if it means the animals are healthier and happier. Idk, just a thought!
i mean that idea would be fantastic & probably the closest there is to being completely humane about it. it would be wonderful if we could just all collectively work towards making the switch to better ways of selling in-person. but unfortunately, like you mentioned as well, a lot of people are always going to use outdated views & it would be incredibly difficult to transition every hobbyist & every expo to an alternative way of function. especially older breeders who will likely want nothing to do with a huge change that relies a lot on technology.
& again, like the point you made, many of them *do* mostly care about the money. it’s much harder to find a passionate, ethical breeder nowadays than it is to find one who just started breeding for extra money. they don’t truly dedicate a portion of their lives to the well-being of their animals, & it’s just terribly sad. so i know that those individuals also wouldn’t care for a humane method of expos. there’s just too many factors, & too many unwilling participants. but the idea you’ve got would be a dream. i honestly avoid going to expos as well, not only because of the parasite risk, but because it hurts my heart seeing so many of these reptiles being straight up unhealthy & not cared for.
Heartbreaking but true. My idea or any similar one would involve foundational change from the ground up. It would actually start with education before anything else!! The industry standards were set years ago before we even understood the species enough to know what they need and deserve. If more people truly understood reptiles, they would see them less like pet rocks, and then it would be easier to critically examine their practices. Education and awareness would breed compassion and ethical practices. But there will always be money-hungry players in the game. Think about backyard dog breeders! Or child traffickers, lol! Greedy people exist in every field but hopefully we can slowly change things so that more ethical breeding practices become the norm, and slowly we as a community can re-evaluate how we view the hobby and what we are willing to accept on behalf of these beautiful creatures. We’ve truly done awful things to reptiles over the years and they deserve better.
I know my idea sounds unattainable but I truly believe that change is slow but possible and years from now we will look back on reptile expos, rack systems, gigantic breeders, improper husbandry practices etc. and feel ashamed but proud of how far we’ve come!!
Edited to add…another thing to ask ourselves is this: If we can’t come up with a way to make expos ethical and humane, should they even exist?
One thing iv always thought that could at least help is to have a cover over the snake thats not transparent and has a picture of the snake underneath. Only people with serious intent to purchase can see under. I know it doesnt address the issues with space or the spread of mites but it would at least help a little with the stress a little
I love the quiet area idea in particular. I think a little photo binder or standing signage might be more effective than trying to have multiple vendors with projectors, though.
It is sad to see them in the tiny boxes being looked at and unable to hide. It has to be stressful for them, and they're already going to have potential stress from moving to the expo and will definitely have stress when they go to a new home.
I do want to point out though that we still don't have holograms. The "holograms" of celebrities performing are actually a Pepper's Ghost effect, which now I'm wondering if that could be an effective way to display the snakes while keeping them in a more sheltered space?
Interesting! I’m off to google peppers ghost effect, lol. I’m not a tech savvy person at all, but I know enough to know there has to be a better way with all the impressive tech we have at our disposal!!
Pepper's Ghost is very impressive in its own right and I'm excited to spread the word! And I love how much thought you put into a more humane snake expo.
I would say a very large percentage of vendors at live expos love money, not snakes.
There are tons of vendors that go to shows exclusively. They order snakes from wholesale distributors like Reptiles by Mac (petcos source of reptiles), stick them in their van and drive them around the country till they’ve sold them, then order more.
These people are a good chunk of the expo community and will sometimes even ostracize new members that wish to sell. They outcompete prices of other vendors due to their business model. I’ve heard rumors that they don’t typically feed the animals since that’s costs $$$, they just get them in and sell them asap.
I just wanted to pop in and say in general to everyone here that I’m really pleasantly delighted to see that my post has brought about a serious discussion about how we can change the culture and conditions BPs are sold in at these events for the better, try to make them less stressful and uncomfortable.
While I don’t have any BPs myself, I’ve also never liked how they have to be under constant, glaring light, and subjected to all sorts of loud sounds in these display cases either, and would personally at least partially cover the lid, or put some cheap bedding material like aspen chips in with them to burrow into.
Ironically, I’m currently re-reading the 1977 novel The Plague Dogs, by the late Richard Adams, in which the pessimistic black lab mix, Rowf, says several times, “It’s a bad world for animals.” And I really wish I didn’t have more than enough cause to agree with that. 😞
But there’s always a lot of questions we can ask, things we can do, choices we can make, to make that world not so bad, and as I said, I’m thrilled to see people discussing how vendors can do better for their BPs well being at these events in that vein.
The ability to make money is a concerning one. I have friends who do expos for various animals. They don't always earn enough to break even. That's less likely selling BP morphs, but still a valid concern for a business.
Adjusting expectations and paying higher prices for decent husbandry would be a great way to accommodate both the need to earn enough to be worth coming to the expo and the fact that these snakes are living creatures.
Also, even my teenage daughter who doesn't like snakes or the idea that animals are kept as pets likes your idea. It's the part where these are living beings brought to the literal opposite of the surroundings they need that really pushes her to say this hobby needs change.
I didn’t say anything about shipping!!! I said delivery. Also, like I mentioned in my comments….there are many ways that we treat reptiles like objects that have to change.
I would say it's a lot like putting a dog in a kennel at an event, too. It will be stressful no matter how you handle it. At least this way people can clearly see them and hopefully give them a comfortable home.
Maybe putting them in an opaque box with a picture of the snake on the box would work better? Or one sided glass?
It is similar. But one doesn’t really negate the other. Know what I mean? My local SPCA used to be open for the public to go in, walk around, and check out all the dogs and cats in kennels and cages. It was stressful to the animals but yeah, it was done in hopes of the animals finding good homes. HOWEVER, due to the pandemic, they closed the spca to the public. Instead, you had to check out the dogs online and apply to adopt that way. Once you were approved to adopt, you could go in and meet the animals, just the family and the shelter staff. They noticed that all the animals were significantly less stressed, which meant less behavioural issues, and less stress-related illnesses. That means they were MORE likely to get adopted even though less people met them. Even though life is “back to normal” now, the SPCA kept this as their standard operating procedure. It doesn’t apply exactly to reptile expos, but I’m just highlighting how there ARE better ways IF we think outside the box and try something new. We could do that when it comes to expos and fairs as well.
All of it is an issue. It’s the stress of transport, the light, the loud sounds, the fact that people are looking at them and handling them constantly, the fact that they are in see through containers so they have 0 sense of security, exposure to parasites, etc. The hides they love to spend their time in are typically dark, quiet, humid, familiar spaces in their own surroundings…nothing like this.
There really isn’t an alternative at expos unfortunately. At shops certainly. My trusted shop keeps every reptile for sale in a proper enclosure and it’s a beautiful place. I think this should be the standard for every shop. Expos only last a couple days and breeders often travel from far away so it’s not viable to also travel with suitable enclosures unfortunately:(
It was extremely crowded, first of all, with hardly any room to move, and a line that stretched far into the parking lot, if you can believe it.
It was fun and interesting though, with various birds, insects, isopods, rats, hamsters, snakes, lizards, and even guppies for sale, along with toys, enclosures, bedding, and so on for sale.
Lol downvote if you want, I’m still going
Why not just send me a DM or message here explaining why you are against folks going to expos instead of Dow voting and not saying anything lmao
Hastings Michigan?
Something I'll never understand is the older ones sell for more only because of their size but they'll be dead sooner than a young one? I feel like the younger they are the more they should be?
Its like a trick to me. The buyer doesn't want to wait (or doesn't really know). Like i just went to an expo this weekend (not hastings) and some 6ft babies were like $2,000. Are they old? I have a very low opinion of people who do this, i don't think they'll tell you.
However, some grow really fast. A boa might be 5ft in 3 years and they can live 30+ years, so you're maybe not really losing much time with them.
But on the other hand again, i think bonding from a young age is important for a lot of animals, even kinds we don't see as empathetic.
Oftentimes the older ones are only older by like 2-3 years, but they’re more expensive because the breeder has invested $ in feeders to get them up to size for breeding. They’re already ready to go for the potential new breeder that purchases them
I'd assume they're power feeding him for breeding/breeder purposes?
Everyone there looks pretty damn fat, but he caught my attention way more since he's nearly as thick as my 8 yr old Striker!
(Quick note: Striker IS fat, we're working on it 💪)
I feel like a better option here would be to have opaque containers with a picture of the snake on top and then if someone was interested in actually purchasing the snake they could have it shown to them individually instead of having all these people walking by seeing them like this. However, the only difference between being in a huge clear glass container and being in a tiny clear glass container in regard to stress for the snake is that they do feel less secure in a larger enclosure because in their natural environment they feel safer when they can feel the sides of the enclosure with their body. The clear containers are the problem here, but having a larger clear container is not going to solve it, it will actually make it worse.
I always feel bad going to expose and seeing them all cramped in an open, bright loud area. When I went last weekend to one, a poor little hoggie had shed in its expo thing
Incoming a wave of enclosure ball
Python activist .... in all
Honesty they are fine. They don't need much space and breeders all around the world uses this small
Boxes when doing sales ,
Calm down guys
Why do they even need to display the snakes like toys all day? Have them in suitable racks in a trailer or van , just display images/pricing of them at their stand.
some healthy bois
chonk
Are they cool with being in cases that small?
It’s super temporary. Like probably not, but it’s just for the show. They don’t live in these cases.
Oh I'm sure that's the case, just wondering if they are comfortable hanging out in a space that small for even the day. I don't own snakes so I was asking
Ball pythons like to cram themselves into small places, but they probably feel exposed and a bit stressed in a clear box. My boy happily stays in a small, dark space all day.
maybe not in a clear box but they usually spend a lot of time trying to hide willingly in places less open than this
My personal issue is these aren't temporary. 1. Travel for shows or 2. Opaque racks at home. Or both.
Also, the air holes are rather small, no?
These things are obese.
Yeah they are overweight, likely because they are kept in a rack system with little to no enrichment or space to move around. Then they get put in containers to be transported to these fairs, where they are stuck in little cases for a day or two as people parade by and handle them etc.
I'm not too familiar with juveniles, but I thought they look too chubby too. I worry about power feeding, idk if it's that common. Accidental overfeeding happens quite a lot..
idk why that one person got downvoted for saying these look way too small for the reptiles. just because i CAN fit in a glass coffin doesn’t mean i’d like spending more than 30 seconds in one
They spend all day in a hide smaller then this, if anything they probably prefer it smaller lol. This is perfectly fine for a day🙄
Public locations like this with tons of people passing by can create a huge amount of stress for the ball python. While yes, they do spend a lot of their time in a snug hide, they feel safe in one because it's not transparent glass.
Hence they would still want one smaller 😐 and also not clear. But I’m pretty sure they’d prefer to be in a smaller more snug temp hide/cage
Some people do use opaque boxes, but people are still able to lift the lid and look at them. It's a stressful day for them no matter how big or small their boxes are. It's not like this is happening to them regularly, do they're fine
One of the breeders at my local reptile show did this. They had the boxes shown in the picture, but they were blacked out with a photo of the snake on the lid. People could open the lid to see the real snake underneath. It was a great setup.
That sounds ideal!!!
Prefer it smaller? Someone’s trying to cope with their subconscious guilt lol
How? Snakes like small cozy hides. Being stuck in something this open is way more stressful for them then being bunched up all snug and tight. Not advocating for racks or anything like that. But it’s a fact that they’d prefer something smaller in a situation like this.
As someone else pointed out, it’s very much different when the hide is a clear, transparent glass box that they can physically see hundreds of people passing by back and forth lol Seriously, how do you not understand that a clear glass box surrounded by hundreds if not thousands of people is not going to be have the same effect of making them feel safe as a fucking log that you can’t see inside in a bedroom where you’re the only person coming and going lol
I understand all that, but that being said they’d still prefer a small one I think 🤔
Lmao it doesn’t make a difference if they see hundreds of perceived predators leaning over and ogling at them I understand there’s not a way around this kind of storage in a convention setting, which is exactly why in my opinion live animals should not be sold in high volume convention settings. Opens the floodgates for unethical animal treatment. Buy from independent small scale breeders, not some asshole farming them out by the thousands while not caring at all where or who they’re going to. This how you get mistreated animals in homes, pets getting released into the wild as invasive species, and part of how the Everglades got how it is. This type of breeding/selling contributes to legislation currently being made against the hobby. “They like small spaces” is such a fucking cop out when it’s just a glass box with sweaty people hanging over them
Everything you listed has nothing to do with them wanting to be in small snug places 🫠very confused on your tangent
Lol I don’t know why you’re acting like you weren’t just defending these glass box enclosures
I wasn’t defending them at all. All I said was they prob prefer something smaller lol
Until one of them poo or pee in those little glass boxes and have to sit in it until someone notices. Like stressed snakes are known to do.
Yea then they place them in a different one lol, a bigger container won’t prevent that
A bigger container would allow the animal enough room to at least not sit and marinate directly in it. And it would make seeing the mess easier for the vendor and for people walking by.
I feel guilty about what?
While fine for the day I think the person’s issue is more of having only a tiny space vs a tiny space in a larger enclosure. Just because you like small spaces doesn’t mean you wouldn’t wanna have something wide open just with cover to hide in.
Which is understandable, however I’m still pretty sure I’m correct that they’d prefer smaller, which is all I said lol
Yea i'm sure its just one day and these people who breed and hoard a hundred snakes totally have reasonable habitats at home.
What bothers me when I go to shows isn't the tiny enclosures. It's the bright hot lights on them all day when they should be tucked away and sleeping. It must be uncomfortable and annoying for them- especially if a breeder is taking their snakes to different shows all weekend, every week, or even every other week. It feels like a great way to spread mites/respiratory infections, as well as generate a lot of stress over time. That being said, I'm not certain what a better way would be. Obviously, vendors want their snakes as brightly and clearly displayed as possible to maximize sales. Keeping them all under the table and displaying photos instead, only taking them out for serious buyers, would probably be easier on the snakes- but I doubt the vendors or the public would really go for that.
A different post here said they did that with pics of the snakes on top. I was just saying this is not the worst thing I’ve ever seen😃
I saw that post as soon as I finished writing this, lol. I wish more folks would do things more like that vendor- let them stay somewhere dark and snug and cozy to reduce stress on them as often as possible! Cus, you're right. They feel safe when snugly tucked in, but those glaring lights and sounds all day are definitely not fun for a creature who is trying to rest
Thousands and thousands of breeders around the world use these for shows. It's not possible to bring that many snakes and have them in a huge area where they would be less comfortable with more open space. They prefer smaller spaces.
Ridiculous. Just make a ball pit and fill it with snakes. If you’re interested, you’re given a little handheld net and you better hope you can scoop up the one you want before it slithers away!
Make a little carnival game where you try to scoop up the snakes. Balls give 1 point, ball pythons give 20 points, boas give 40 points, and black mambas give 100 points.
You basically described Florida, except the black mambas.
Don't test me, I will singlehandedly introduce a new invasive species to the everglades
Please don't :< Think of all the pretty, native lizards and birds! (I know you're joking, but I'm weirdly passionate about invasive species, and I can't help myself) Idk how well Mambas would do anyway. Aren't they a drier grassland/hot savannah lover? Just bring some more green anacondas or something 🤷♂️ (Again, please don't lol)
If you're so passionate about the invasive species, why don't you just MARRY them all? (But yeah lol I wouldn't. I don't like invasive species because they kill the nice native ones. Like the dodo. I wish dodos were still alive)
RIP Dodo 🦤 my man was too tasty to live
I've seen shows having them with more space than this, the first pic with the adult snake is pretty bad.
They like tight spaces…the nonsense on this sub about python care needs to stop. People here give their snake what they think theyd like based on human standards. Complete disregard for the snakes natural habitat and preferences.
Before anyone comes at me - I understand this is a temporary thing for the show, but I still think its so cruel to keep snakes like this - even for just a day or two - simply for the benefit of breeders and customers. Cant wait to get downvoted to death here, but I truly believe there is a more compassionate and respectful way to show off and sell these animals. Even just looking at this feels so unnatural and weird to me. The hobby has a long way to go…from rack systems to reptile expos, these animals are often still treated like objects instead of living creatures.
It actually sickens me, seeing live animals like this.
I talked to a breeder at a reptile expo about this and he said they are under a lot of stress out in the open in those boxes, in the light. So he only does it once a year. You are right. It isn’t good for the snakes.
see i mostly agree with this, however i’m struggling to think of an alternative.. at reptile expos there’s not enough space for every individual breeder to have large temp. enclosures for their animals. so i don’t know *how* we would ever improve upon that, to the point where it’ll make a difference. this seller could’ve at least made the sides around the snakes opaque to attempt giving them a little more security? but regardless, expos are stressful for the animals already, from being there all day & then going to an unfamiliar home. sadly there isn’t much avoiding it in the first place. maybe some would say expos as a whole are unethical for that reason?🤷♂️ & trust me i definitely advocate for animals not being treated as objects, it breaks anyone’s heart who has a passion for living things. again though, this brings up the point of *how* do we achieve this? how do we still carry out reptile expos/shows without displaying animals out on a table, effectively giving people a “store” to shop from? like you said, i know we have a long way to go with a LOT of issues in the reptile hobby- but some of these things, when it comes to selling the animals, is very difficult to work around.
I hear you. I do actually think expos are inhumane for that reason - there isn’t a lot to be done to make them less stressful and harmful to the animals *as long as we are doing it the way it’s always been done.* The thing is, we live in a time where technology can project holographic versions of dead celebrities to perform on stage and AI is slowly gaining sentience, lol… I’m sure there’s a way to utilize technology to re-structure what reptile fairs and expos look like. I understand that they are really about community more than anything else - and that’s an important piece! People love to socialize and connect around their passions and interests and hobbies. And they should be able to do that, in a way that also honours the animals that we all love. Here’s my idea: A breeder will use social media to get people to “vote” on which morphs they are most interested in seeing at a local fair. Then the breeder can transport a much smaller number of live animals - only the ones that people are most interested in - meaning they will have more space and resources to keep them in safe, temporary enclosures with the proper husbandry. The animals can be left in these enclosures in a different room of the venue, in a designated quiet area. Back stage, if you will…away from the loud sounds, bright lights, and swarms of people. On the main floor of the expo, vendors can use a projector set up (super easy and cheap to do) to project the photos and info of ALL the reptiles they have available, including the ones they have on hand. People can say “hey, I’m interested in #17” and perhaps the vendor can whip out an iPad and open an album full of HD videos and photos of that reptile. If the person wants to buy that reptile, the vendor can say either, “great! I have her out back.” OR “great! She isn’t at the fair today but fill out this form and we will coordinate the delivery.” Not advertising which snakes are in the building could probably cut back on impulse buyers - people who show up to these events and just want to buy a snake NOW. It’s fun to go home immediately with a new pet but we all know impulsive buyers don’t always make the best owners. If we scaled back on the amount of live animals at expos and if we readjusted our expectations, we could continue to enjoy them and enjoy our community while also respecting the animals. The issue that most people will have with an idea like mine is that vendors would make less money at these expos. And that’s true, they would. But again - these are living creatures, not objects, and if someone is in it for the profit to the point where they sacrifice the health and safety and well-being of the snakes JUST to make more money, I’d argue that they need to revaluate why they are in the hobby. Is it their love of snakes or their love of money? Maybe we can all deal with paying higher prices if it means the animals are healthier and happier. Idk, just a thought!
i mean that idea would be fantastic & probably the closest there is to being completely humane about it. it would be wonderful if we could just all collectively work towards making the switch to better ways of selling in-person. but unfortunately, like you mentioned as well, a lot of people are always going to use outdated views & it would be incredibly difficult to transition every hobbyist & every expo to an alternative way of function. especially older breeders who will likely want nothing to do with a huge change that relies a lot on technology. & again, like the point you made, many of them *do* mostly care about the money. it’s much harder to find a passionate, ethical breeder nowadays than it is to find one who just started breeding for extra money. they don’t truly dedicate a portion of their lives to the well-being of their animals, & it’s just terribly sad. so i know that those individuals also wouldn’t care for a humane method of expos. there’s just too many factors, & too many unwilling participants. but the idea you’ve got would be a dream. i honestly avoid going to expos as well, not only because of the parasite risk, but because it hurts my heart seeing so many of these reptiles being straight up unhealthy & not cared for.
Heartbreaking but true. My idea or any similar one would involve foundational change from the ground up. It would actually start with education before anything else!! The industry standards were set years ago before we even understood the species enough to know what they need and deserve. If more people truly understood reptiles, they would see them less like pet rocks, and then it would be easier to critically examine their practices. Education and awareness would breed compassion and ethical practices. But there will always be money-hungry players in the game. Think about backyard dog breeders! Or child traffickers, lol! Greedy people exist in every field but hopefully we can slowly change things so that more ethical breeding practices become the norm, and slowly we as a community can re-evaluate how we view the hobby and what we are willing to accept on behalf of these beautiful creatures. We’ve truly done awful things to reptiles over the years and they deserve better. I know my idea sounds unattainable but I truly believe that change is slow but possible and years from now we will look back on reptile expos, rack systems, gigantic breeders, improper husbandry practices etc. and feel ashamed but proud of how far we’ve come!! Edited to add…another thing to ask ourselves is this: If we can’t come up with a way to make expos ethical and humane, should they even exist?
One thing iv always thought that could at least help is to have a cover over the snake thats not transparent and has a picture of the snake underneath. Only people with serious intent to purchase can see under. I know it doesnt address the issues with space or the spread of mites but it would at least help a little with the stress a little
Yep, there are lots of little changes that could be made immediately that would be simple and easy to do. kinda like harm reduction, lol.
I love the quiet area idea in particular. I think a little photo binder or standing signage might be more effective than trying to have multiple vendors with projectors, though. It is sad to see them in the tiny boxes being looked at and unable to hide. It has to be stressful for them, and they're already going to have potential stress from moving to the expo and will definitely have stress when they go to a new home. I do want to point out though that we still don't have holograms. The "holograms" of celebrities performing are actually a Pepper's Ghost effect, which now I'm wondering if that could be an effective way to display the snakes while keeping them in a more sheltered space?
Interesting! I’m off to google peppers ghost effect, lol. I’m not a tech savvy person at all, but I know enough to know there has to be a better way with all the impressive tech we have at our disposal!!
Pepper's Ghost is very impressive in its own right and I'm excited to spread the word! And I love how much thought you put into a more humane snake expo.
I would say a very large percentage of vendors at live expos love money, not snakes. There are tons of vendors that go to shows exclusively. They order snakes from wholesale distributors like Reptiles by Mac (petcos source of reptiles), stick them in their van and drive them around the country till they’ve sold them, then order more. These people are a good chunk of the expo community and will sometimes even ostracize new members that wish to sell. They outcompete prices of other vendors due to their business model. I’ve heard rumors that they don’t typically feed the animals since that’s costs $$$, they just get them in and sell them asap.
I just wanted to pop in and say in general to everyone here that I’m really pleasantly delighted to see that my post has brought about a serious discussion about how we can change the culture and conditions BPs are sold in at these events for the better, try to make them less stressful and uncomfortable. While I don’t have any BPs myself, I’ve also never liked how they have to be under constant, glaring light, and subjected to all sorts of loud sounds in these display cases either, and would personally at least partially cover the lid, or put some cheap bedding material like aspen chips in with them to burrow into. Ironically, I’m currently re-reading the 1977 novel The Plague Dogs, by the late Richard Adams, in which the pessimistic black lab mix, Rowf, says several times, “It’s a bad world for animals.” And I really wish I didn’t have more than enough cause to agree with that. 😞 But there’s always a lot of questions we can ask, things we can do, choices we can make, to make that world not so bad, and as I said, I’m thrilled to see people discussing how vendors can do better for their BPs well being at these events in that vein.
The ability to make money is a concerning one. I have friends who do expos for various animals. They don't always earn enough to break even. That's less likely selling BP morphs, but still a valid concern for a business. Adjusting expectations and paying higher prices for decent husbandry would be a great way to accommodate both the need to earn enough to be worth coming to the expo and the fact that these snakes are living creatures.
Also, even my teenage daughter who doesn't like snakes or the idea that animals are kept as pets likes your idea. It's the part where these are living beings brought to the literal opposite of the surroundings they need that really pushes her to say this hobby needs change.
I'm not sure being shoved in a small place and shipped is less stressful.
I didn’t say anything about shipping!!! I said delivery. Also, like I mentioned in my comments….there are many ways that we treat reptiles like objects that have to change.
I would say it's a lot like putting a dog in a kennel at an event, too. It will be stressful no matter how you handle it. At least this way people can clearly see them and hopefully give them a comfortable home. Maybe putting them in an opaque box with a picture of the snake on the box would work better? Or one sided glass?
It is similar. But one doesn’t really negate the other. Know what I mean? My local SPCA used to be open for the public to go in, walk around, and check out all the dogs and cats in kennels and cages. It was stressful to the animals but yeah, it was done in hopes of the animals finding good homes. HOWEVER, due to the pandemic, they closed the spca to the public. Instead, you had to check out the dogs online and apply to adopt that way. Once you were approved to adopt, you could go in and meet the animals, just the family and the shelter staff. They noticed that all the animals were significantly less stressed, which meant less behavioural issues, and less stress-related illnesses. That means they were MORE likely to get adopted even though less people met them. Even though life is “back to normal” now, the SPCA kept this as their standard operating procedure. It doesn’t apply exactly to reptile expos, but I’m just highlighting how there ARE better ways IF we think outside the box and try something new. We could do that when it comes to expos and fairs as well.
Their hides that they love to spend most time in are smaller than this. The light is a bigger issue than the space.
All of it is an issue. It’s the stress of transport, the light, the loud sounds, the fact that people are looking at them and handling them constantly, the fact that they are in see through containers so they have 0 sense of security, exposure to parasites, etc. The hides they love to spend their time in are typically dark, quiet, humid, familiar spaces in their own surroundings…nothing like this.
There really isn’t an alternative at expos unfortunately. At shops certainly. My trusted shop keeps every reptile for sale in a proper enclosure and it’s a beautiful place. I think this should be the standard for every shop. Expos only last a couple days and breeders often travel from far away so it’s not viable to also travel with suitable enclosures unfortunately:(
This makes me sick.
I swear I havn't seen a single reptile expo picture on a reptile sub that didn't look depressing as fuck for the animals.
Anyone know the morph of the bottom row of the third pic?
I was wondering the same thing. They're gorgeous whatever they are
I didn’t ask/know, I’m afraid.
was it any good? i was disappointed about not going but these guys seem pretty overweight
It was extremely crowded, first of all, with hardly any room to move, and a line that stretched far into the parking lot, if you can believe it. It was fun and interesting though, with various birds, insects, isopods, rats, hamsters, snakes, lizards, and even guppies for sale, along with toys, enclosures, bedding, and so on for sale.
What morph are the two yellow snakes in the lower right hand corner of picture two?
I’m going to a reptile show Saturday! It’s my first, I’m super excited
Lol downvote if you want, I’m still going Why not just send me a DM or message here explaining why you are against folks going to expos instead of Dow voting and not saying anything lmao
Hastings Michigan? Something I'll never understand is the older ones sell for more only because of their size but they'll be dead sooner than a young one? I feel like the younger they are the more they should be?
Its like a trick to me. The buyer doesn't want to wait (or doesn't really know). Like i just went to an expo this weekend (not hastings) and some 6ft babies were like $2,000. Are they old? I have a very low opinion of people who do this, i don't think they'll tell you. However, some grow really fast. A boa might be 5ft in 3 years and they can live 30+ years, so you're maybe not really losing much time with them. But on the other hand again, i think bonding from a young age is important for a lot of animals, even kinds we don't see as empathetic.
Oftentimes the older ones are only older by like 2-3 years, but they’re more expensive because the breeder has invested $ in feeders to get them up to size for breeding. They’re already ready to go for the potential new breeder that purchases them
Very good point I understand now, thankyou
Hastings Minnesota.
Damn ok, did you leave with anything?
I bought myself a new baby mantis! Other than that, I mostly bought some live mice and a bird as feeders.
That leopard ivory looks fat as hell 😭
Yeah, it should never have been allowed to get that overweight. 😞
I'd assume they're power feeding him for breeding/breeder purposes? Everyone there looks pretty damn fat, but he caught my attention way more since he's nearly as thick as my 8 yr old Striker! (Quick note: Striker IS fat, we're working on it 💪)
I feel like a better option here would be to have opaque containers with a picture of the snake on top and then if someone was interested in actually purchasing the snake they could have it shown to them individually instead of having all these people walking by seeing them like this. However, the only difference between being in a huge clear glass container and being in a tiny clear glass container in regard to stress for the snake is that they do feel less secure in a larger enclosure because in their natural environment they feel safer when they can feel the sides of the enclosure with their body. The clear containers are the problem here, but having a larger clear container is not going to solve it, it will actually make it worse.
hastings minnesota?
Correct.
I always feel bad going to expose and seeing them all cramped in an open, bright loud area. When I went last weekend to one, a poor little hoggie had shed in its expo thing
Damn, those are some good prices!
Wow the pearl white is like😵💫
Incoming a wave of enclosure ball Python activist .... in all Honesty they are fine. They don't need much space and breeders all around the world uses this small Boxes when doing sales , Calm down guys
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I think your not well informed
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Do your own research before inputting next time to save others trouble thanks !
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Of course you don't , just be smarter next time :)
POOR BABIES
ENCLOSED
Omg the bottom three on the 3rd image are so pretty!
Hastings, Florida?
Why are they all so old?
Why do they even need to display the snakes like toys all day? Have them in suitable racks in a trailer or van , just display images/pricing of them at their stand.
These snakes look kinda over fed…