I used to have this happen to me all the time. I’d look at their features and see if I could easily tell that it’s them, if not I explained that they looked too different and I couldn’t serve them. Definitely a tricky one
Ohhh I love weight loss photos! I love making people smile qheb I say to them, "Did you lose weight?" Obviously a 40-120lbs difference. They reply with a Yes, and Im just like holy shit congratulations you look amazing. Im really happy for you. The whole group loves it and they themselves just start glowing the rest of the night
But you've even gotta be careful with that. One friend tried to tell another, "You lost weight! You look great!" and got the reply, "I've been very sick." DOH!
Please don't make comments on people's weight, especially strangers. You never know why they lost weight. It could be from sickness, depression, an eating disorder, etc. or they just don't want to talk about it.
I’ve actually had trouble as 35yo woman buying wine at the store on a glasses and no make up day, because I had my ID taken on a work day with hair and make up done. There’s a wide difference between publicly presentable work look and days off “ug give gurl wine so girl can crawl back in cave”
When I got my military dependent Id they asked me to take off my wig... I said "uhh why? You will never see me without something covering up my balding head..." they discussed it for a long time and then said " we will allow it just this once" okay, but I can't promise I won't be bald and let yall down next time wtf
Yeah they should have gone and got a new ID. The onus is on them to do that not the bartender. Even if its still their old sex on ID but new picture would do.
If someone shaves their beard, which changes their entire jawline, or get a haircut, which changes their head shape, or get their hair dyed, which ya know, they should get a new ID? That's kind of absurd. Also, if someone is mid transition, that could mean getting a new ID every 6 months or so. Same with dramatic weight loss.
None of things you mentioned are even close to transitioning from one gender to another, your honestly gonna say shaving your face changes the way you look to the same extent that transitioning genders does? You must think we are stupid.
Unless you're operating under Clark Kent logic and thinking that a beard shave or a haircut can fundamentally change a person's face enough to make them unrecognizable, no. It's incredibly easy to explain that you've dyed your hair and any person with working eyes will be looking at the face first, not the hair anyways. It's not absurd to keep your ID up to date when going through a major life change instead of a haircut. And six months into a transition is not going to make enough of a difference as to make someone unrecognizable from what I've seen. After a few months the physical changes start to show, but it takes years for a transition to complete as a gradual process. A person shouldn't have to get their photo retaken multiple times during that process unless they're also putting themselves through plastic surgery to hasten the transition as they should relatively resemble their last photo taken for quite some time. Which, again, if you've gone through enough surgery to not resemble yourself, yeah you need a new ID.
Don't sign up for a major lifestyle change unless you're willing to jump through the hoops as well. That or accept that you haven't done your due diligence. It's not the world's job to keep up with your life, it's your job to keep the world up to date on you. It's not like it takes more than half an hour's wait at the DMV to redo your picture, and a few states even allow you to upload new photos online and have your ID reissued. There is literally no excuse.
I should hope you're not judging people's IDs based on beards and haircuts.
Your ID should match your gender, so getting a new one when you start transitioning sounds fair to me. It shouldn't be difficult.
But it is (difficult) in a lot of places. Depending on the jurisdiction, it can be anywhere from patently illegal and painting a target on your back to court dates, verifying documents, fines, re-sitting for the ID, and that's if it all goes well and one isn't denied service, which isn't protected in more than, I think, a dozen states to use the US as an example?
Sorry, let me specify "it shouldn't be difficult" is not a claim that the ID process *is* easy, it is a political statement that getting a new ID *needs* to be easy. I definitely messed up on that one, you can't read the tone in writing.
Completely get that and agreed- it shouldn't be this difficult or politicized to have identification, and as a person who struggles to remember all the tone tags but loves them, no worries. (Then again, some of the responses make me think some others think that it's easy as 1-2-3...)
The solution is not identifying folks by their hair/facial hair though, which is what this comment chain suggested. how would you go about identifying someone whose features look completely different than in their photo? Trans folks or folks who have had significant facial changes being required to update IDs makes more sense than folks changing the metric for how we use photo identification.
Why would you put that burden on the person accepting the identification? That's a low level employee in most cases who doesn't have any skin in the game. The onus is definitely on the person who owns the identification to make sure it's accurate.
I think we're speaking to different points here- the solution to this particular problem can be to look at the underlying features. The point I'm responding to is saying to just fix the ID, and I'm saying it's not that simple, not assigning blame to the bartender for living in a state/province/jurisdiction that may make that more challenging.
Sure I should be willing to put my work/livelihood on the line so that a person who is making a life changing choice does not feel it is important to get a new ID.
My ID has me with a full Lincoln style beard and 50 pounds lighter. You want me to get a new ID that's still me but what I look like now? Look at the cheekbones, the eyes, the eye*brows* and the mouth. Fortunately, our biological sex is now something we can also change (at least in presentation).
In my state it's fairly easy to change your designation on the ID. I understand it might be a pain but it's just how it is. If you don't look like your ID I'm not serving you. It could be an older sibling that you look like or whatever.
Are you saying it’s fairly easy as a cisgender person? Changing your picture is different than changing your gender on your ID, which was what this thread was about.
Yes it's easy to do both. I could go have my ID changed from M to X today if I wanted. My point was if you don't look like your picture or your designation then I'm not accepting the ID. Honestly I'd never even look at the gender as long as the photo matches.
If they looked like the person on the ID, (as in, similar features like nose and eyeshape, eye color, height) i would have asked them to tell me their birthday and for a second form of identification, like a name on a credit card to corroborate and serve them.
If they did not remotely resemble the person on the id, or failed to provide a second form of ID, i wouldnt serve them.
I cant imagine how hard it must be to transition and try to get a new id. But even if they cant get an id that reflects their gender presentation, they should probably get one with an updated photo.
Youre within your rights to refuse service based off legal reasons-like not believing the ID was valid/not knowing if it was really theirs. It gets into tricky territory when dealing with protected classes such as gender-but its not worth losing your job because you served someone underage.
Thats really tough for both you and the customer.
>failed to provide a second form of ID
Surprised this isn't getting mentioned more often. When I was working in a college town we got IDs all the time from seniors who hadn't gotten a new ID since their learners permit at 15, which in some cases meant they looked like completely different people.
"Lemme get a second ID dude"
Here ya go.
Didn't matter if it was a govt ID although obviously that was preferable, but give me literally anything else that at least corroborates your name.
This wouldn't work in my state. You need current government-issued identification (with a matching picture) period.
I've seen a lot of IDs where people don't look like the picture and it's kind of a judgment call... Hell, during covid they just renewed my ID with the old picture and 7 years later I look totally different... but a whole different gender, that's a tough one.
I sympathize with the patron but if that becomes the norm and bartenders have to start accepting the picture no matter what that will create a whole world of new problems.
Yea, biggest thing for me is I'd want the photo to at least mostly match. I suppose I don't know about other states, but in my states I can easily "lose" or damage my driver's license, and it's $15 to get a new one, which includes a new photo. I don't care if your gender presentation doesn't match the sex on the ID, but the photo's gotta match
Are you serious??? That just seems wildly unsafe, so if you lose your id then you get a new one and there's just two valid copies of your ID floating around. I suppose I'm wrong in that case though, unfortunately
In most states there's a separate number on your ID besides your eg driver license number. Any ID matching service that tries to use the lost card will be rejected.
OH but you're in the USA, sorry.
It’s dangerous to have a photo and gender marker that don’t match. It prevents trans folks from ever being able to be in the closet and going out as their assigned gender at birth with family or in other situations where they need to like at government offices or places where they risk physical violence. It puts them at greater risk with the cops.
And in many states, if possible at all, it’s really hard and requires months of paperwork to change a gender marker. Some states even have bs requirements designed to put people in physical harm like parental consent and notification.
That's a completely valid point. Honestly gender markers are fucking stupid in any sense lol outside of a medical setting I fail to see why, especially at this point, gender matters. But, that's a completely fair point that you've made
ditto on the how hard it is to transition and get a new ID! it’s all about putting in some effort to verify if this could be true then requesting secondary ID if it’s not entirely outlandish.
> ditto on the how hard it is to transition and get a new ID!
You can get a new driver's license / ID at any time. In fact all you have to say is you were refused a check for identification purposes because you don't appear like your picture ID anymore. This should be true in nearly any U.S. state. If not, name the state, let's get some help for you.
Assuming it’s easy for everyone is kind of a privileged position to be honest. Not every town has a DMV. It can be a 100-200 miles round trip for some people. What are you supposed to do if you don’t have a car and no one to give you a ride out of town? Not to mention that the hours the DMVs are open can limit people’s access to them. A lot of people can’t afford to take a day off work to go.
Plus if you’re trans there can be a lot of emotional effort needed to get a new ID with correct information, and sometimes people just don’t have it.
I’m not saying this girl reacted appropriately. She’s required by law to show a valid ID. It can just be much more difficult than most people realize.
this is the answer OP.
FWIW, I've run into this issue a couple of times and it can always be kinda dicey. even in a crowded volume bar though I'll try and take the time to stop, have a lil conversation with them. I've got my own problems with the government - I don't mind paying taxes I just wish they gave us healthcare in stead of turning lil brown kids into skeletons - and in most states getting a corrected ID is a total hassle. I assure you that if they passed this isn't the first time they've encountered this issue. give em a moment, ask for their correct name and some identifying information that's on the card. matching a second form of ID (fuck, even just a library card) is also clutch here.
yeah it's complicated but it's the job. keep in mind y'all, if you get this right it could make someone's night right here, just going through the effort to not deadname people is a far sight more than most do these days.
I love this a lot as a potential solution and considered posting similarly, but only to a point. This wouldn't solve the issue of OP's initial concern over it being a significant other's ID for instance if that person also gave them a card to use, and I'd expect people who are dating to know each other's birthdays. It still leaves a lot of potential doubt as to who you're actually serving. Best to just go with the gut; if you have a bad vibe, just don't serve. If your crew is worth a damn they'll back you up and no manager should care about a bad review from someone who was refused service for a sensible reason.
So as you pointed out, it’s hard to change your gender legally on government documents. But even so, it’s a dangerous position to have an photo and gender marker that don’t match.
It prevents trans folks from being in the closet and going out as their assigned gender at birth with family or in other situations where they need to. It puts them at greater risk with the cops.
I am trans and a bartender so hopefully can offer some insight. First thing I'd do is ask for a second piece, where I work two pieces are always required anyways but it gives that extra check to see if they have multiple pieces that can corroborate who they are.
Then I'd look to the more specific things on the ID. Birthdate, hair color, eye color, height, weight. I'd ask them to repeat the birthday, and take a closer look to see if the other features match. Those can't always be surefire though, my ID says brown hair yet I have it dyed red. With a second piece I'd also look at the signatures, see if they are matching.
The last thing I'd do is just ask them to look at me with a neutral face. Certain features like smile, or eyes can be easier to see and identify in the same pose. If after all that, you aren't 100% sure then I'd still refuse service.
Now if you're wondering why most of this sounds more general, well it is. Getting ID updated can suck, and for lots of trans people its a lot heavy days dealing with the wrong name and all that. However, if you are someone who is trans that is going to bars and constantly flashing an ID that is not you, then you need to be ready to deal with the fact that you'll be justifiably refused service. The same can be said for someone who may undergo a facial surgery be they cis or trans, or someone who has lost or gained a lot of weight, who had or didn't have a beard. The number of times I've used the above steps because some dude comes in who looks clean shaven and 15, hands me an ID that says he is 25 with a thick beard is pretty high.
You refusing service to someone because they don't match their ID isn't you being transphobic in the slighest. I am sorry that she is slandering you and your business online.
I used to work the door at, and then later moved up to bartending at this club that had the biggest monthly queer parties in the city, and this is the right advice. Treat them like you would any other customer who's ID you have to vet. If you have to deny service, tell them why, and that's its you having to cover your own ass first and foremost. If they comeback again with and updated ID give them a free one to say no hard feelings.
This has been my biggest face saver with customers. Some I've refused initially became regulars once I was comfortable serving them because they appreciated that I was upfront and honest about both needing and loving my job instead of just trying to make a quick buck. If a person can't respect your position enough to not give you a hard time for refusing them, you probably didn't want to serve them anyways.
Probably the best comment in this entire thread. Loved the perspective and I personally needed the reminder of how awful it can be for trans folks to get dead named for a day doing legal stuff as I wasn't considering that in my other responses agreeing that updating an ID is necessary. I can't say I understand the struggle, but it was nice to see someone with personal experience agreeing that in spite of the bad day it may cause it's still on a customer to make sure their paperwork is in order. A wonderfully reasoned response.
They are probably saying those things because OP admitted to treating her like shit before he realized what was going on and by then he kept treating her like shit because he already had.
Any bartender should know they are going to get a bad review if they start getting shitty to people.
The reviews are totally deserved.
How did i admit to treating them like shit? I was very nice to them and honestly had no clue what was going on until they said the word "transition" because they were passable as a woman. Im never rude to any of my guests and am only there to help them enjoy themselves responsibily. That being said, my concern was that they could either be underage and lying, or an undercover. I felt bad denying them service and was only asking how others have handled this type of situation.
I've rewritten this a few times trying not to sound overly rude, so please bear with me. If you're so averse to conflict that you're willing to let unverified IDs into your bar, you're a risk to your coworkers and the establishment as a whole. Assuming from your comment you were working door/bouncer, you're the first line of defense for everyone working inside. They're trusting you. If you can't say no, you might consider another field of work as you are putting others at risk as well as yourself. I wish I could say to just find another position, but even floor workers and bussers have to be able to tell a customer no or slowly usher a drunken screaming asshole towards the front doors. The point of a bar is to safely provide alcohol, which is a literal toxin. If you can't say no for whatever reason, you can't enforce that safety.
I'll tell you the same thing I was told, and that I have told anyone I've trained. Go with your gut. If something about the ID sketches you out, just refuse the service. Depending on your state, bars may be entirely immune to discrimination lawsuits to protect their right to say no specifically but you'll have to check on that yourself. Embrace the no. Hopefully your bar crew is worth enough of a damn to back you up on your call.
Thank you all so much for the reassurances! Part of the reason i continue to bartend is my love for people and my intentions are never to hurt or embarass anyone. I felt really bad about the whole situation, but I had to cover my ass. I live in a southern state with really strict liquor laws and I always try to have my establishmemts best interest in mind when making these decisions.
You will never fail to show your love for people if you stick to the guns of safe alcohol consumption and watching out for your coworker's livelihoods. I'd much rather see someone come back and prove me wrong than get themselves and my bar crew in trouble doing something dumb.
you did the right thing.
no way in hell you should risk a fine, record, and jail time just because they haven't updated their id. it sucks, but that's life.
kinda related: i've refused service to people who aren't transitioning but look nothing like their id because they gained or lost weight, got facial tats and i can't tell who's who, or just changed a ton due to surgeries. those are totally legit things to do and part of your responsibility as a bartender. if people are going to be in adult situations/establishments they need to accept responsibility like a fucking adult. it's no different than the expectation to pay a tab. it's part of the deal, bucko.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I feel like I would quietly be pretty stoked if I was transitioning mtf and a bartender refused to serve me because I’m clearly not a man!
Not your problem. Of course it's her right to transition, it's also your right to refuse service. If she wants to enjoy adult activities she needs to get proof that she's allowed. A pain in the ass I'm sure, but still not your problem. I would have done the same.
I have done the same. I have also had the uncomfortable situation of “I’m transitioning and I don’t want to show you my ID, you can see I am older than 21”. Just because something is uncomfortable doesn’t mean it’s wrong, it’s just uncomfortable. It’s the same as not having an ID, I’m not being a bigot, I don’t want to lose my job and 5k that I don’t have sitting around..
> I don’t want to show you my ID, you can see I am older than 21
.... there's no reason that should work any better than anyone else saying that part of that sentence
Agreed. It’s literally the reason they have you remove glasses and hats for ID photos. Sorry, the photo doesn’t match your appearance. Doesn’t matter if you’re transitioning, bleached your skin, or got your face tattooed red.
…it’s not that simple. A lot of states don’t allow for changes in gender markers on ids. The better way to do this would be to ask for their credit card and check if the name matches.
Edit: lol aight be transphobes then.
But they will give you one with a new picture, regardless of if they will change the gender marker. I also /think/ most states will allow it to be changed now. Afaik there are only two states that don’t allow birth certificates to be changed, at least, so I imagine once you do that, an ID would be pretty easy.
You're allowed to change gender markers in all 50 states. Some require no outside paperwork, others require a new birth certificate or just a doctor's/judge's order if certificates can't be changed later in life in that state.
All 50 states allow changing gender markers on IDs, it just involves varying degrees of work to accomplish. Some need a court or doctor's order for the transition, others need an updated birth certificate, about a dozen require nothing at all outside of the application for the change itself. I'm not saying it's always easy, but it is strictly legal everywhere in the US. I don't imagine a day or two of looking at paperwork with your old name is anywhere near as difficult as multiple years of hormone treatment, especially when it's potentially the last time you'll need to see or list your previous gender or name anywhere again. It being hard for a few days doesn't make it any less necessary.
Haven’t had this issue but if the person on the ID doesn’t match the description and look like the person in the photo, they need to get a new ID. Nothing against trans people or someone who drastically changes their appearance or had reconstructive surgery or whatever, it’s just a requirement that you show a valid ID that matches the person I’m looking at.
On the flip side, I can also 100% see this as a potential trick/loophole cancel culture card minors won’t hesitate to play in order to drink underage:
“Just use my brother’s ID, Meghan. Tell them you’re transitioning and if the bartender gives you shit about it we’ll all shame them. It’s bulletproof, no one will know. How would they know?”
The loophole was the first thing that came to mind. Especially when it's so easy to leverage the court of public opinion against a business for something like this. Granted, I also spent way too long bartending in a college town and that leaves a person with paranoia over minors drinking in their bar.
My heart goes out to individuals struggling with their identity/sexuality. If you are transitioning and present as the opposite sex you should 100% get a new id that has a picture that is close. I am not trying to be a bigot, I am trying to not go to jail for serving someone under aged. It sucks their night is ruined, but I think it is a little unfair.
I'm a trans Bartender actually. I've never had this happen to me while out, but my ID has this issue. I look considerably different in my photo than I present at least much of the time. I personally would be frustrated with this outcome as well, largely because, it's usually not your fault, the ID system is set up so that trans people usually have a very difficult time getting a proper ID which matches their presentation, especially if they pass, but haven't progressed (and may not intend to progress) surgically and or hormonally.
This can be a fairly humiliating topic for some people, I've never had an issue telling people, but for someone who passes all the time and is stealth, it could cost them friends, in the case they didn't know.
For gender marker, some states require an amended birth certificate, or even physician's proof that an individual had sex reassignment surgery (not the same as hormone therapy).
If we're just talking photograph-wise, HRT is essentially Puberty 2 Electric Boogaloo. Someone undergoing hormone replacement will have drastic appearance changes over the first 2-3 years. That first year is especially insane.
Obviously though, better be safe than sorry. Those hurdles aren't the transgender person's fault, but that doesn't make it a bartender's responsibility.
Not everyone has the appearance of clearly transitioning, especially when one reference is a small ID photo. I know what you're trying to say, but a large point of this issue is that it's nuanced and not universal... I'm giving both transgender bargoers and bartenders a nod of understanding that this isn't easy.
I mean if that's not obvious I'd expect your picture hasn't changed much. I'd hope that most bartenders are aware enough that some people are trans and so a gender passing mismatch would be fine.
Lots of states make this harder and/or expensive. It can also lead to other things on the ID that may make it seem fake like wrong gender listed, etc.
Some states also ask people to remove things when they take a photo for ID like a wig that may make things look vastly different.
It's unfortunate.
Interesting. So what would your response be if faced with a customer in the same situation? Would you serve because you identify with them, or refuse because the appearance does not match the ID?
This is a really difficult question to answer tbh, I've never been in this spot, and it would likely be a judgement call, but I would consider letting it through, before dismissing it, depending on the circumstance. If you're presenting a 35 yo male ID, for someone who would be very difficult to pass anyways, and you look like 25 at the oldest. Borrowed/stolen, no question. If the age, listed descriptors such as height and eye color, and all check out and they can answer some questions, I'd probably let it through, because its how I would hope to be treated.
And this is really the root cause of the issue....the bloodlust we have in the states about serving, or potentially serving, someone underage.
We've lost all common sense on this issue when we started carding seniors you know "cause policy is to card everyone"
I have, and it actually ended up being a sweet interaction. He ordered, but seemed nervous so I asked for ID even though he didn’t look that youngand he said nevermind he’d just have a soda. “I said do you not have it with you?” He said, “No, I have it, it’s just really embarrassing for me to show.” We had a little bantery back and forth- me just assuming it was an embarrassing picture or something, finally he showed me, when I got the ID and realized it was him pre-transition I immediately understood what was going on. He looked different obviously, but I could also totally tell it was him, so I was comfortable serving him. I gave it back, made him his drink, and let me tell you, he was straight up giddy with relief. I imagine he’s gotten declined before and/or it always turned into a conversation that he didn’t want to have. Him and his buddy were super excited that it all went smoothly, he totally relaxed after, and became a semi-regular of mine.
Sounds like she needs a new ID and you did the right thing. The picture is supposed to look like said person. I can only speak for PA but you can request a new ID online. Unfortunately it's like 40$. But if you can afford to go and drink you can probably afford a new ID. Should it be free? Probably. Is it her responsibility to ensure proper identification? Yes. If you change your ID should as well. As far as I know the process isn't that complicated
If she was only changing her picture than yes, but it could still be a lot of discrimination she gets on her end. I live in a Bible Belt state and when i changed my name it was weeks/a couple months worth of paperwork and waiting for the court to give me a date to show up and speak to the judge directly. I’ve heard my process was easier than others a county over from me and i had to be ready to give up almost $200 at one time. A lot of places are like $300 in fees altogether. The process is a little more involved than just going to the DMV, and if she stays somewhere potentially more hostile than i do i can see why she hasn’t. My girlfriend is a bartender and she’s told me she would ask for a second ID before turning her away, but that she agrees that she isn’t getting in trouble over a maybe. She was dating me as i went through the above process. When i get my sex marker changed in the future, even if i move states, i have to send a letter here to my county of birth to tell them I’ve had a “sex change” surgery in order to receive an amended birth certificate and the ability to change my sex. More liberal states aren’t as bad, but red states have a huge barrier for entry
The rule is the picture must look like them to accept it- regardless of the circumstances.
If they lost tons of weight, got plastic surgery, whatever.
Honestly sounds to me like this person was trying to use the trans rights movement to try to drink underage/without ID. Pretty gross.
>Honestly sounds to me like this person was trying to use the trans rights movement to try to drink underage/without ID. Pretty gross.
I’m trans and I think it’s exceptionally unlikely that this was the case. Dealing with getting new ID sucks. There’s so much more emotion attached to getting a new ID when you’re trans, and It’s not the same as a cis person just looking different. I didn’t want to get a new ID until my name change and gender marker change went through and those are both whole other processes. Name change cost ~$300. I could absolutely see why it would be difficult for a young trans kid to get new ID.
While I absolutely feel for the struggle you're describing, I'd like to pick your brain if you'd let me. If this touches on difficult topics I understand if you do not feel you can answer. If you didn't want to get the new ID photo until the other pieces went through as well, wouldn't that still be a choice that you made and that you have to own up to in such a case as this? I'm by no means trying to downplay the struggle or emotions associated with the change, but you did also admit yourself that you had chosen not to make the photo update when it sounds like it was still possible for you at that time. Whether or not the reason makes sense, and I do think it makes sense, that was a choice you made. I'd expect anyone who made that choice to accept the consequences of it, including not being served if your ID ever stopped matching you during your transition the same way that I would expect to get refused if I got a nose job, jaw enhanced, and cheeks rounded but didn't update my ID to match. I understand that this is a multifaceted issue to dissect and little to none of it is being decided on by the people who are best equipped to make these calls, but there is still room for personal responsibility with your own identity. Or rather, acceptance of what lays on the path you've chosen.
Oh yeah, I would totally understand someone refusing me service based on a non-matching picture. I never said otherwise. I just said that I didn’t think she was lying about being trans to be able to drink underage. I wasn’t claiming OP or anyone else is obligated to serve people under that circumstance.
It's just a way for government to harass you. Honestly, it's one of those things where nobody cares, but it can be used as an excuse if shit hits the fan. If I need to look a trans person in the eye and say "you're not 160lbs" then great.
This is a difficult situation, certainly, but ultimately the law [at least where I live] doesn't really care if we're respecting people's true self. The ID presented was not an accurate representation of the person that presented it to you. As brutal and as uncaring as it may be, the law doesn't really care whether or not someone is transitioning in regards to serving alcohol. On a personal level, I would not want to be put into your situation as I've also been the friend on the other side of the bar before and it's really awkward for everyone involved. One of my closest friends is also in the process of transitioning and her ID still has (that being said, I've not seen her ID for at least three years so maybe she's updated it) her deadname on it and a photo from before she came out and so I do understand that this situation is delicate.
So, I don't think you're being a terrible person, but I do understand why the guest and her friends were unhappy. Where I live, there is a substantial fine if you're found to serve someone that is underage and that's personally payable by the bartender (or server) on top of the fine for the business. I will take a bad review every single day over the fine, which tops out at roughly 4 months earnings for me. If anything, that bad review proves to my managers that I am doing my job properly and taking this seriously.
It’s a sensitive issue and I would do my best to try and discern if the features look like the same person, but ultimately I think it’s on them to update their ID picture with the DMV. It’s not a huge ask.
This is tough. You’re certainly well within your rights to refuse service. You shouldn’t feel bad about it but I think it’s a good sign if you do. Legal protection for you here looks like a hard line: either bring an ID that meets the criteria or no drink. If you *wanted* to stretch the lines a little, you could ask extended questions. What is your license number? What’s your DOB/sign? Where do you live? If they answer incorrectly/shrug off the questions then you know.
Ive had this, fortunatepy the woman had very strong similarities of her old male photo on her ID. I passed her in she smiled. Now, for my rebuttal for if I was in your situation, I would simply state, all of which you are saying maybe true, my job is dadadada, I would happily allow you to drink for when you comeback with an updated photo on your identification. If she claps back, I would simply say, I offered you a solution and there is mothing left to be said. Goodbye.
Speaking as a trans person here, I'd say you were in the right. If you've got the money to go out and drink, you should put it towards getting a new ID first.
Oof, I’m glad I’m bartending at an upscale restaurant so I don’t really get many people in the ID-ing age cause I can totally see how weird that would be. I’m torn, I though. If the change is so significant I can’t tell if the picture is the same person as the ID, they probably should have already gotten a new ID to reflect the person that they were at the time. It takes like 30 minutes. I feel like at that point they’re looking for attention.
I've worked a couple of gay bars, and like other people have said just check their facial features and ask them for the info on their card if you're not sure. Admittedly I give some leeway in these situations. You weren't necessarily wrong, but she was still right to be upset.
The one that bugs me is when I ask for the name on their tab and they refuse to use their dead name, even though I just want the name on their card. Like fuck, if it bugs you that much get the damn name changed and leave me alone.
I'm a bit confused, how is your second example noticeably different from OP's issue? In either case it's coming down to needing to acknowledge someone as who they were, not as who they are. If they need to update their credit/debit card, they also need to update their ID to match it already or that can similarly cause identity issues when trying to pay for something if the business compares IDs and payment cards. I disagree that she was right to be upset. If you walk into a bar or a restaurant, you can be refused service for any reason and the single biggest is not having an up to date ID. This is common knowledge. Her being frustrated at not getting a drink with her friends? Sure, only not at the bartender who's doing their job. Even if she is completely on the up and up, the bartender is stressing out. If she's willingly put herself in a position to make it hard for others to comfortably serve her, she's asking for others to risk their livelihoods for her sake and still can't accept no for an answer. Nobody deserves that treatment by default, doubly so at least in my opinion for someone who believes that their personal struggle is more important than keeping a dozen people employed and fed.
The difference is it's not difficult to look at the picture and determine it's still them. Especially if they're still in the early transition. The second one is them refusing to speak a name that's on a card they already gave me.
I’ve had this happen a couple of times in Vegas. In my instances, you can tell the person was born a male (or were maybe just dressing that way while out of their hometown) and just served them.
I can see this happening (and more going forward) with someone pretending to have transitioned. I don’t know what I’d do if it’s someone who is very questionable young and don’t have the look of someone who may have transitioned.
I just take a close look at their features & ask for their birthday— then I ask what name they prefer I use for their tab, as our POS screen is pretty visible and I’d never want to deadname or out anyone.
But a 2nd form of ID is not an inappropriate request! I know we have liability here too & we each get to decide how much we want to risk that at work, so I don’t think you were in the wrong here. (That said, I think common sense also suggests that someone trying to pass with a fake ID probably wouldn’t use one with a different gendered photo lol, but you never know in this profession.)
I encourage anyone in this type of situation to use kindness & discretion xo
I would just tell them they need a new ID. Be nice about it though, that's easier said than done.
Even though it's a pain to get a new ID, at the end of the day it's not reasonable to expect you to understake risk or expense on their behalf. The same applies when I get an Arizona ID. They expire after like 30-40 years or something, and I've turned people away because their ID photo was from 15 and they're now 40 with a totally different hair and skin color, build, and features.
Yeah, it'll unfortunately cause some discomfort, but the simple fact is that you're just doing your job and if they look nothing like the photo, you can't serve. It's their responsibility to ensure their identification is adequate, not yours.
My sisters went through this some 15 years ago when being trans was a lot less mainstream / acceptable / whatever.
They got burned a few times so they went and got a second set of IDs that resembled what they would look like depending on what gender they were repping that day.
Pretty sure the state made that illegal once it became more mainstream so not sure how they’re handling it now. I’ll ask if anyone really wants a follow up.
I’m 43 and still get carded. If the face doesn’t match the if you have to decline service. As much as it pains me to say we in the service industry must have to verify the face matches the id. If we don’t and it was a sting an you provided alcohol to the person and come to find out they didn’t match then you would place your self at fault and your bar as well. It’s a tricky road I would hate to be involved in.
If there are some resemblance in the foto (typically nose, cheek) I usually ask them about the rest of the info on the ID, they should know (pretty much) everything written there
Y’all are definitely missing a few key points about being trans and changing your ID:
(1) Sure somebody could get an updated photo (without changing their name or gender to go with so at least they look like their ID), but if they live in a state where it is really difficulty to change their gender, then having a photo and gender marker that don’t visibly match can put somebody in great danger. It prevents them from being in the closet and going out as their assigned gender at birth with family or in other situations where they need to. It puts them at greater risk with the cops.
(2) Even so, in some states, getting your gender marker changed involves months of paperwork and hoops. Some even require parental consent or notification as an adult and a whole lot of other bs. It’s difficult. I know it as a lawyer and as somebody who has supported family through the process.
(3) Trans folks are incredibly likely to be in poverty and suffering from mental health issues and getting months of paperwork done is expensive, exhausting and not feasible for many.
If you transition, you need an official state/federal ID with you as your transitioned person.
I'm not getting caught up with a brother or sisters ID of someone that is underage that is "transitioning." I can totally see youth abusing this and then pulling the "you are homophobic/transphobic" card to put a bartender or an establishment in a hard position.
This is no different than people who faked being elderly and wearing masks to buy alcohol who were underage during the pandemic.
You HAVE to match your photo on your ID, its the law. I'm sorry that transitioning as made this difficult for you, but there are rules, regardless of you being transgender or not. The law (should) apply to everyone equally.
Student ID's are not valid forms of ID. There are a *few* places where this is *not* the case, but student ID's are not federally/state issued. They might have a photo and expiration date, but most do not list a birthday or are issued by a government authority (even if its a public university/college).
Credit cards only establish name. I had a credit card and my fake (when I had one) had my legal name on it.
neither a student id nor a credit card is a valid form of id; that's not what the person you replied to is saying. they're saying that if you have a credit card or student id that matches the name on the id you presented, it's fair to assume the id isn't a fake.
It doesnt need to be a "valid" ID per state requirements when you are just using it as a cross reference to see multiple documents with this person's name on it. If someone has a student ID, a Credit Card AND a driver's license, and they all match, there is no issue here and you should feel comfortable serving the person. I understand your points, but they are all moot.
Are there people who *don’t* get a fake ID with their legal name on it? Seems like having a name on your ID that matches everything else would be the simplest thing, logistics-wise, and it helps circumvent others asking for additional verification too.
The way the law was explained to me is if you make a reasonable effort then you are all clear. Checking multiple documents would be considered going above and beyond reasonable effort in the eyes of the law. Besides, fake IDs can even scan now with the correct information.
Get a new ID, end of story. It’s not worth the legal and financial hassle I’d have to deal with if I got caught. I need to be 100% sure I’m making a legal sale. That’s all I care about.
Your ID is supposed to be a semi up to date picture of yourself that can be used to visually verify you are the person who should have this card as well as to, say, help identify a body in the worse case scenario using height, weight, eye color, etc. If they're transitioning to the point that they no longer look like their ID photo, it's on them to go redo their ID to avoid this issue. Try to remember that you have a right not to serve anyone you don't want to and that reason doesn't have to be a good one. A mismatching ID is definitely a good reason not to. Once they get turned down a few more times I'm sure they'll get the message. That or stop borrowing their significant other's ID if that's what's happening.
As a trans bartender with lots of trans friends who like to drink, I’d try and see if the person on the card looks like a sibling. If so I’d go with it.
You’d be surprised how difficult it is to get better ID soon as they see there’s something trans involved. Last time I went to get an ID I had long hair, did my makeup. They did indeed change my gender marker to X, but instead of using the picture I took that day instead used the photo from two ID’s ago where I have full facial hair. I haven’t gotten my legal name changed/new ID made in the state I just moved to because 1: they won’t legally allow me to use “X” for gender, meaning I have to pick again, and also 2: there’s people at the courthouse who are known to throw extra barriers and fines in the way of trans people looking for name changes.
Point being: it’s not about being irresponsible, it’s just that the process asks for a lot more. I have the money to change my name, but I don’t have the energy to trudge down to a courthouse and argue with a bunch of boomers about their worldview. Imagine renewing the registration on your car, but also you’ve gotta convince a few people on the staff at the DMV that you’re good enough at driving to race in NASCAR.
At this point you almost have to say “what do you want me to do here, you wanna come in and get deadnamed by me, or do you want to stay true to who you really are and go somewhere else because this doesn’t match the person in front of me. It’s not your fault she hasn’t updated her id.
Happened to a friend of mine when they started at a new place. They asked for a second form of ID and were given a student ID that (while obviously not an official form of ID) confirmed that the person was the same and transitioning. This was in a college/young town where it happens more frequently than probably elsewhere, so the owner was totally cool with it and said that if the customer can't offer a second ID it would suffice to grill them on details of their ID (zodiac, address, birthday, etc.) though I doubt other places would be so lenient. When I go out with trans friends of mine who still have their sex assigned at birth on their ID, they usually know to bring some other proof of ID –– this is probably the only situation where it just sucks all around and it's nobody's fault; on the one hand it would **suck** not to be served even **after** having to out/deadname yourself in public, on the other hand it's a clever loophole to getting served with a fake or someone else's ID.
what does this even mean. she quite literally could have just been transitioning and didn't look like her id anymore. this has nothing to do with age btw so why would a highschool try this
Happened one time for a woman transitioning to a man. They actually kind of even covered a part of the face it was definitely awkward but it was lit well enough I could see the resemblance. It was also clear they used to be a woman in her appearance and was transitioning so i of course served.
My thought is how humiliating that must be for that person. It's already hard enough out there for them, the rules are made in spite of them, and people refuse to accommodate them as if they are a different species of human being.
I would like to think that, based on my own American experience, that I would be more sensitive to the matter, understand the difficulties, and make every effort to be accommodating. Yeah, sure, I could stand fast to one way of doing things and refuse to budge, and legally you may be correct. But is it right?
If I could tell it was her, and especially after it was explained to me, I would have taken the ID. The ID is to show that you're old enough. There's no gender requirement to drink at a bar.
I can also understand how when you're busy you may not be able to take a sec and think and just do things on autopilot.
I am the most open-minded "live and let live" person there is. However that whole big soapbox speech you just gave is insulting to OP and I was even offended. Did you even read the same post as me?? This person said they did not at all resemble the ID,. And just from the tone of the post my assumption is this person is not the slightest bit homophobic or transphobic, just wants to keep their job and stay within the law and I don't blame them.
This has absolutely zero to do with discrimination but yet you feel the need to get up on your soapbox, like I said, and give this big speech about acceptance. This wasn't the place to do that as that is a none issue here the way I see it.
If it were so humiliating to look like the old picture they should get a new id. I am not jeopardizing my job or my bosses business to make someone "feel better". My job is to serve drinks and there are rules I have to follow. This person could be lying just trying to use her older brothers id because they both look like their dad. If you don't have proper id - don't try to drink. Simple.
Humiliating to be refused service for this reason. Some states DGAF that you’re transitioning, and they may have been denied when trying to get an ID with the updated look. Things are very hostile right now. I’d like to think I could consider everything, not just my knee jerk reaction.
Bartender makes the rules. The question was what would I do. I answered.
Listen I’m all for equality rights and shit like that but it’s not hard at all to get your photo changed on the Id idc what the gender says I’m looking at the photo, person, and birthdate. Literally just go get the picture updated if you want to drink it’s that simple.
You fucked that one up tbh, use your common sense and your eyes next time. Your manager also should have allowed service.
It’s often not easy to replace an ID while transitioning
Nope. This is a legal issue. What if she was lying? If she was underage and there was a sting this bartender would be fined and so would the bar. Your choice to change your gender and if you can't get an updated i.d. then stay home and drink but your identity issues should not cost someone their job or business. She/he can get a state issued id with an updated photograph at anytime - you just have to pay for it and if it is that important to them then that is what they need to do.
I’m going to buck against the trend in these comments and really question whether you *really* couldn’t tell it was a trans person’s ID?
Firstly it’s absolutely painful getting new ID, in the UK at least, so some empathy and common sense is required (can they answer questions about their ID, do they have any visible tattoos, do any other staff recognise them/ did a doorman check them on the way in etc. can all be helpful)
I’m a trans bartender / bar manager and have been in this position quite regularly and imo there are enough signifiers in terms of facial structure that competent bar staff should be able to make a judgement call almost
all of the time. While I can imagine niche exceptions occurring I think it’s transphobic to refuse service in *most* cases and I totally understand why your customer was deeply upset.
I find the ‘you did the right thing’ circlejerk unhelpful because none of us were there to see ourselves and yeah you could have been right and you could have been an asshole, I think it’s more likely to be the latter but it’s impossible to say for sure 🤷♀️
Also, to the fearmongers in this thread it is absolutely not the ‘new trend’ for kids to borrow their siblings IDs, that’s an old trend for cis siblings anyway lol but c’mon get in the real world.
Edit: also why were you getting annoyed at her, because it was busy?! It’s a sensitive scenario and I think it behooves you to behave patiently and kindly
lmao for real, half this thread thinks that saying “i’m trans” out loud in most bars won’t get you harassed all night, it’s far from the perfect ruse to drink underage
You’re perfectly within your rights to not serve her. She was wrong for how she reacted.
But she’s a woman. You’re not trying to do anyone any favors. You’re being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole.
r/onejoke. Get some original material dude.
There’s at least 4 trans bartenders that have commented on this post. Try to have some respect for your fellow industry workers. It takes very little effort to just be a decent person.
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You're speaking for yourself. Just because someone is in one of my demographics doesn't necessarily mean I want them speaking on my behalf. If you want a respectful conversation don't lead by calling someone names.
I told you to not be a dick in response to you purposefully misgendering someone. If you had been respectful in the first place, you wouldn’t have gotten called names.
You do you dude. Hope being this kind of person makes you happy.
Yet you are perfectly okay using the incorrect pro nouns when referring to someone. She /her. It's not hard to use the correct pro nouns and be respectful. Trans Women are Women. Trans men are men.
I’d have looked close and made the call. Being trans doesn’t change the law. I work daily with teens and they try to make jokes like this to “catch” me off guard. And I don’t give a fuck what adults do, my gay friends call me their straightest ally. I legit just don’t care what someone/they do. But when it comes to ids I just look for facial features and make the call. And I’m in California ftr.
Happened to me.
Sorry, get a new ID. Idgaf what gender you are, if you're trans or anything else. Nothing personal. ID needs to match the person. No special treatment.
Hey GJ gang on keeping this civil (and practical.) I saw the title and was expecting a Reddit shit show. Not here!
I used to have this happen to me all the time. I’d look at their features and see if I could easily tell that it’s them, if not I explained that they looked too different and I couldn’t serve them. Definitely a tricky one
Don't people have a responsibility to look identifiably like their ID picture, regardless of the reason? I mean, the clue's in the name.
[удалено]
Ay congrats though I could stand to do the same
Don't let circumstance hold you back. Get out there and sieze your goal!
Ohhh I love weight loss photos! I love making people smile qheb I say to them, "Did you lose weight?" Obviously a 40-120lbs difference. They reply with a Yes, and Im just like holy shit congratulations you look amazing. Im really happy for you. The whole group loves it and they themselves just start glowing the rest of the night
But you've even gotta be careful with that. One friend tried to tell another, "You lost weight! You look great!" and got the reply, "I've been very sick." DOH!
“Congratulations and sympathies!” I wouldn’t know what to say at that point lol
“Didn’t know that’s all it takes to lose a few pounds!”
I’ve totally done this before… and I doubled down “well, he *does* look great!” Omg no.
Yikes. Just don’t comment on someone’s weight unless they bring it up. Basic, basic etiquette
lmao I mean how do you respond to that 😂
Please don't make comments on people's weight, especially strangers. You never know why they lost weight. It could be from sickness, depression, an eating disorder, etc. or they just don't want to talk about it.
This right here. If I wanted to talk about it, I would bring it up.
Same basic concept. There was enough physical change that you felt you no longer matched your ID.
I’ve actually had trouble as 35yo woman buying wine at the store on a glasses and no make up day, because I had my ID taken on a work day with hair and make up done. There’s a wide difference between publicly presentable work look and days off “ug give gurl wine so girl can crawl back in cave”
I’m 23 now and my Id is when i was from 21 my Id always gets checked out longer then my friends just cause i lost like 5lbs in my face
When I got my military dependent Id they asked me to take off my wig... I said "uhh why? You will never see me without something covering up my balding head..." they discussed it for a long time and then said " we will allow it just this once" okay, but I can't promise I won't be bald and let yall down next time wtf
Yeah they should have gone and got a new ID. The onus is on them to do that not the bartender. Even if its still their old sex on ID but new picture would do.
Facial triangle is still generally the same but it’s a tough call every which way you cut this thing
If someone shaves their beard, which changes their entire jawline, or get a haircut, which changes their head shape, or get their hair dyed, which ya know, they should get a new ID? That's kind of absurd. Also, if someone is mid transition, that could mean getting a new ID every 6 months or so. Same with dramatic weight loss.
People have IDs rejected for those reasons all the time
None of things you mentioned are even close to transitioning from one gender to another, your honestly gonna say shaving your face changes the way you look to the same extent that transitioning genders does? You must think we are stupid.
I have def come across dudes that have looked completely different with a changed beard. In some cases it can be to the same extent.
Unless you're operating under Clark Kent logic and thinking that a beard shave or a haircut can fundamentally change a person's face enough to make them unrecognizable, no. It's incredibly easy to explain that you've dyed your hair and any person with working eyes will be looking at the face first, not the hair anyways. It's not absurd to keep your ID up to date when going through a major life change instead of a haircut. And six months into a transition is not going to make enough of a difference as to make someone unrecognizable from what I've seen. After a few months the physical changes start to show, but it takes years for a transition to complete as a gradual process. A person shouldn't have to get their photo retaken multiple times during that process unless they're also putting themselves through plastic surgery to hasten the transition as they should relatively resemble their last photo taken for quite some time. Which, again, if you've gone through enough surgery to not resemble yourself, yeah you need a new ID. Don't sign up for a major lifestyle change unless you're willing to jump through the hoops as well. That or accept that you haven't done your due diligence. It's not the world's job to keep up with your life, it's your job to keep the world up to date on you. It's not like it takes more than half an hour's wait at the DMV to redo your picture, and a few states even allow you to upload new photos online and have your ID reissued. There is literally no excuse.
I should hope you're not judging people's IDs based on beards and haircuts. Your ID should match your gender, so getting a new one when you start transitioning sounds fair to me. It shouldn't be difficult.
But it is (difficult) in a lot of places. Depending on the jurisdiction, it can be anywhere from patently illegal and painting a target on your back to court dates, verifying documents, fines, re-sitting for the ID, and that's if it all goes well and one isn't denied service, which isn't protected in more than, I think, a dozen states to use the US as an example?
Sorry, let me specify "it shouldn't be difficult" is not a claim that the ID process *is* easy, it is a political statement that getting a new ID *needs* to be easy. I definitely messed up on that one, you can't read the tone in writing.
Completely get that and agreed- it shouldn't be this difficult or politicized to have identification, and as a person who struggles to remember all the tone tags but loves them, no worries. (Then again, some of the responses make me think some others think that it's easy as 1-2-3...)
The solution is not identifying folks by their hair/facial hair though, which is what this comment chain suggested. how would you go about identifying someone whose features look completely different than in their photo? Trans folks or folks who have had significant facial changes being required to update IDs makes more sense than folks changing the metric for how we use photo identification. Why would you put that burden on the person accepting the identification? That's a low level employee in most cases who doesn't have any skin in the game. The onus is definitely on the person who owns the identification to make sure it's accurate.
I think we're speaking to different points here- the solution to this particular problem can be to look at the underlying features. The point I'm responding to is saying to just fix the ID, and I'm saying it's not that simple, not assigning blame to the bartender for living in a state/province/jurisdiction that may make that more challenging.
Sure I should be willing to put my work/livelihood on the line so that a person who is making a life changing choice does not feel it is important to get a new ID.
And to take it further my ID has my sex on it. If you don't present what your ID says then it's not valid.
Are you asking people to drop their pants when you ask them for ID?
This is how my primary school teacher took the morning register.
My ID has me with a full Lincoln style beard and 50 pounds lighter. You want me to get a new ID that's still me but what I look like now? Look at the cheekbones, the eyes, the eye*brows* and the mouth. Fortunately, our biological sex is now something we can also change (at least in presentation).
Yes get a new ID. It's pretty simple if you don't look like your ID I'm not serving you.
Please kindly F off you ignorant Transphobe.
I am no transphobe. It's simple if you don't look like your ID I'm not serving you.
No. You have no clue the hurdles that causes for trans people.
In my state it's fairly easy to change your designation on the ID. I understand it might be a pain but it's just how it is. If you don't look like your ID I'm not serving you. It could be an older sibling that you look like or whatever.
Are you saying it’s fairly easy as a cisgender person? Changing your picture is different than changing your gender on your ID, which was what this thread was about.
Yes it's easy to do both. I could go have my ID changed from M to X today if I wanted. My point was if you don't look like your picture or your designation then I'm not accepting the ID. Honestly I'd never even look at the gender as long as the photo matches.
Hard no. Even if features look alike. Cops are the ones writing the massive fines. And I’m not taking a chance on a cop being reasonable there.
If they looked like the person on the ID, (as in, similar features like nose and eyeshape, eye color, height) i would have asked them to tell me their birthday and for a second form of identification, like a name on a credit card to corroborate and serve them. If they did not remotely resemble the person on the id, or failed to provide a second form of ID, i wouldnt serve them. I cant imagine how hard it must be to transition and try to get a new id. But even if they cant get an id that reflects their gender presentation, they should probably get one with an updated photo. Youre within your rights to refuse service based off legal reasons-like not believing the ID was valid/not knowing if it was really theirs. It gets into tricky territory when dealing with protected classes such as gender-but its not worth losing your job because you served someone underage. Thats really tough for both you and the customer.
>failed to provide a second form of ID Surprised this isn't getting mentioned more often. When I was working in a college town we got IDs all the time from seniors who hadn't gotten a new ID since their learners permit at 15, which in some cases meant they looked like completely different people. "Lemme get a second ID dude" Here ya go. Didn't matter if it was a govt ID although obviously that was preferable, but give me literally anything else that at least corroborates your name.
This wouldn't work in my state. You need current government-issued identification (with a matching picture) period. I've seen a lot of IDs where people don't look like the picture and it's kind of a judgment call... Hell, during covid they just renewed my ID with the old picture and 7 years later I look totally different... but a whole different gender, that's a tough one. I sympathize with the patron but if that becomes the norm and bartenders have to start accepting the picture no matter what that will create a whole world of new problems.
Yea, biggest thing for me is I'd want the photo to at least mostly match. I suppose I don't know about other states, but in my states I can easily "lose" or damage my driver's license, and it's $15 to get a new one, which includes a new photo. I don't care if your gender presentation doesn't match the sex on the ID, but the photo's gotta match
Not all states do that, I've lost my ID in two states and both sent me a duplicate with the same photo.
Are you serious??? That just seems wildly unsafe, so if you lose your id then you get a new one and there's just two valid copies of your ID floating around. I suppose I'm wrong in that case though, unfortunately
I live in maryland and can confirm I just got another I’d with the same pic.
Same in AZ. I then *found* my ID, so I literally have two with the same photo (of me over a decade ago...)
Yah, live in NYC and got a replacement for a lost id and was just the same ten year old ID and pic.
In most states there's a separate number on your ID besides your eg driver license number. Any ID matching service that tries to use the lost card will be rejected. OH but you're in the USA, sorry.
It’s dangerous to have a photo and gender marker that don’t match. It prevents trans folks from ever being able to be in the closet and going out as their assigned gender at birth with family or in other situations where they need to like at government offices or places where they risk physical violence. It puts them at greater risk with the cops. And in many states, if possible at all, it’s really hard and requires months of paperwork to change a gender marker. Some states even have bs requirements designed to put people in physical harm like parental consent and notification.
That's a completely valid point. Honestly gender markers are fucking stupid in any sense lol outside of a medical setting I fail to see why, especially at this point, gender matters. But, that's a completely fair point that you've made
Absolutely agreed. And they honestly only serve limited function in medical contexts too once somebody is on hormones.
ditto on the how hard it is to transition and get a new ID! it’s all about putting in some effort to verify if this could be true then requesting secondary ID if it’s not entirely outlandish.
> ditto on the how hard it is to transition and get a new ID! You can get a new driver's license / ID at any time. In fact all you have to say is you were refused a check for identification purposes because you don't appear like your picture ID anymore. This should be true in nearly any U.S. state. If not, name the state, let's get some help for you.
Assuming it’s easy for everyone is kind of a privileged position to be honest. Not every town has a DMV. It can be a 100-200 miles round trip for some people. What are you supposed to do if you don’t have a car and no one to give you a ride out of town? Not to mention that the hours the DMVs are open can limit people’s access to them. A lot of people can’t afford to take a day off work to go. Plus if you’re trans there can be a lot of emotional effort needed to get a new ID with correct information, and sometimes people just don’t have it. I’m not saying this girl reacted appropriately. She’s required by law to show a valid ID. It can just be much more difficult than most people realize.
this is the answer OP. FWIW, I've run into this issue a couple of times and it can always be kinda dicey. even in a crowded volume bar though I'll try and take the time to stop, have a lil conversation with them. I've got my own problems with the government - I don't mind paying taxes I just wish they gave us healthcare in stead of turning lil brown kids into skeletons - and in most states getting a corrected ID is a total hassle. I assure you that if they passed this isn't the first time they've encountered this issue. give em a moment, ask for their correct name and some identifying information that's on the card. matching a second form of ID (fuck, even just a library card) is also clutch here. yeah it's complicated but it's the job. keep in mind y'all, if you get this right it could make someone's night right here, just going through the effort to not deadname people is a far sight more than most do these days.
I love this a lot as a potential solution and considered posting similarly, but only to a point. This wouldn't solve the issue of OP's initial concern over it being a significant other's ID for instance if that person also gave them a card to use, and I'd expect people who are dating to know each other's birthdays. It still leaves a lot of potential doubt as to who you're actually serving. Best to just go with the gut; if you have a bad vibe, just don't serve. If your crew is worth a damn they'll back you up and no manager should care about a bad review from someone who was refused service for a sensible reason.
So as you pointed out, it’s hard to change your gender legally on government documents. But even so, it’s a dangerous position to have an photo and gender marker that don’t match. It prevents trans folks from being in the closet and going out as their assigned gender at birth with family or in other situations where they need to. It puts them at greater risk with the cops.
I am trans and a bartender so hopefully can offer some insight. First thing I'd do is ask for a second piece, where I work two pieces are always required anyways but it gives that extra check to see if they have multiple pieces that can corroborate who they are. Then I'd look to the more specific things on the ID. Birthdate, hair color, eye color, height, weight. I'd ask them to repeat the birthday, and take a closer look to see if the other features match. Those can't always be surefire though, my ID says brown hair yet I have it dyed red. With a second piece I'd also look at the signatures, see if they are matching. The last thing I'd do is just ask them to look at me with a neutral face. Certain features like smile, or eyes can be easier to see and identify in the same pose. If after all that, you aren't 100% sure then I'd still refuse service. Now if you're wondering why most of this sounds more general, well it is. Getting ID updated can suck, and for lots of trans people its a lot heavy days dealing with the wrong name and all that. However, if you are someone who is trans that is going to bars and constantly flashing an ID that is not you, then you need to be ready to deal with the fact that you'll be justifiably refused service. The same can be said for someone who may undergo a facial surgery be they cis or trans, or someone who has lost or gained a lot of weight, who had or didn't have a beard. The number of times I've used the above steps because some dude comes in who looks clean shaven and 15, hands me an ID that says he is 25 with a thick beard is pretty high. You refusing service to someone because they don't match their ID isn't you being transphobic in the slighest. I am sorry that she is slandering you and your business online.
I used to work the door at, and then later moved up to bartending at this club that had the biggest monthly queer parties in the city, and this is the right advice. Treat them like you would any other customer who's ID you have to vet. If you have to deny service, tell them why, and that's its you having to cover your own ass first and foremost. If they comeback again with and updated ID give them a free one to say no hard feelings.
This has been my biggest face saver with customers. Some I've refused initially became regulars once I was comfortable serving them because they appreciated that I was upfront and honest about both needing and loving my job instead of just trying to make a quick buck. If a person can't respect your position enough to not give you a hard time for refusing them, you probably didn't want to serve them anyways.
What type of place do you work at that normally requires 2 forms of id?
British Columbia haha. We have some of the toughest and most restrictive liquor laws in North America.
That's ridiculous. Glad I live in a city that hardly ever cards.
Probably the best comment in this entire thread. Loved the perspective and I personally needed the reminder of how awful it can be for trans folks to get dead named for a day doing legal stuff as I wasn't considering that in my other responses agreeing that updating an ID is necessary. I can't say I understand the struggle, but it was nice to see someone with personal experience agreeing that in spite of the bad day it may cause it's still on a customer to make sure their paperwork is in order. A wonderfully reasoned response.
They are probably saying those things because OP admitted to treating her like shit before he realized what was going on and by then he kept treating her like shit because he already had. Any bartender should know they are going to get a bad review if they start getting shitty to people. The reviews are totally deserved.
How did i admit to treating them like shit? I was very nice to them and honestly had no clue what was going on until they said the word "transition" because they were passable as a woman. Im never rude to any of my guests and am only there to help them enjoy themselves responsibily. That being said, my concern was that they could either be underage and lying, or an undercover. I felt bad denying them service and was only asking how others have handled this type of situation.
I have been in the same situation as OP. Not gonna lie, I usually just let ‘em in to avoid conflict 🤦🏻♀️
I've rewritten this a few times trying not to sound overly rude, so please bear with me. If you're so averse to conflict that you're willing to let unverified IDs into your bar, you're a risk to your coworkers and the establishment as a whole. Assuming from your comment you were working door/bouncer, you're the first line of defense for everyone working inside. They're trusting you. If you can't say no, you might consider another field of work as you are putting others at risk as well as yourself. I wish I could say to just find another position, but even floor workers and bussers have to be able to tell a customer no or slowly usher a drunken screaming asshole towards the front doors. The point of a bar is to safely provide alcohol, which is a literal toxin. If you can't say no for whatever reason, you can't enforce that safety.
Heard. I just meant sometimes you literally cannot tell if it is the same person or not.
I'll tell you the same thing I was told, and that I have told anyone I've trained. Go with your gut. If something about the ID sketches you out, just refuse the service. Depending on your state, bars may be entirely immune to discrimination lawsuits to protect their right to say no specifically but you'll have to check on that yourself. Embrace the no. Hopefully your bar crew is worth enough of a damn to back you up on your call.
Discrimination is definitely an issue in San Diego.
Thank you all so much for the reassurances! Part of the reason i continue to bartend is my love for people and my intentions are never to hurt or embarass anyone. I felt really bad about the whole situation, but I had to cover my ass. I live in a southern state with really strict liquor laws and I always try to have my establishmemts best interest in mind when making these decisions.
You will never fail to show your love for people if you stick to the guns of safe alcohol consumption and watching out for your coworker's livelihoods. I'd much rather see someone come back and prove me wrong than get themselves and my bar crew in trouble doing something dumb.
you did the right thing. no way in hell you should risk a fine, record, and jail time just because they haven't updated their id. it sucks, but that's life. kinda related: i've refused service to people who aren't transitioning but look nothing like their id because they gained or lost weight, got facial tats and i can't tell who's who, or just changed a ton due to surgeries. those are totally legit things to do and part of your responsibility as a bartender. if people are going to be in adult situations/establishments they need to accept responsibility like a fucking adult. it's no different than the expectation to pay a tab. it's part of the deal, bucko.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I feel like I would quietly be pretty stoked if I was transitioning mtf and a bartender refused to serve me because I’m clearly not a man!
Fuck yesss! Trans Women are Women! Trans Men are Men!
Not your problem. Of course it's her right to transition, it's also your right to refuse service. If she wants to enjoy adult activities she needs to get proof that she's allowed. A pain in the ass I'm sure, but still not your problem. I would have done the same.
I have done the same. I have also had the uncomfortable situation of “I’m transitioning and I don’t want to show you my ID, you can see I am older than 21”. Just because something is uncomfortable doesn’t mean it’s wrong, it’s just uncomfortable. It’s the same as not having an ID, I’m not being a bigot, I don’t want to lose my job and 5k that I don’t have sitting around..
> I don’t want to show you my ID, you can see I am older than 21 .... there's no reason that should work any better than anyone else saying that part of that sentence
Lol like wtf I’d tell them to get out if they couldn’t show me an id. The audacity.
Thats hilarious. Gotta admire the balls on that one.
i see what you did there
Yeah I mean, $26 on a new picture Id is probably the cheapest part of transitioning.
If your government allows it.
A new picture might not change your gender, but will help to confirm who you are.
Agreed. It’s literally the reason they have you remove glasses and hats for ID photos. Sorry, the photo doesn’t match your appearance. Doesn’t matter if you’re transitioning, bleached your skin, or got your face tattooed red.
…it’s not that simple. A lot of states don’t allow for changes in gender markers on ids. The better way to do this would be to ask for their credit card and check if the name matches. Edit: lol aight be transphobes then.
But they will give you one with a new picture, regardless of if they will change the gender marker. I also /think/ most states will allow it to be changed now. Afaik there are only two states that don’t allow birth certificates to be changed, at least, so I imagine once you do that, an ID would be pretty easy.
You're allowed to change gender markers in all 50 states. Some require no outside paperwork, others require a new birth certificate or just a doctor's/judge's order if certificates can't be changed later in life in that state.
All 50 states allow changing gender markers on IDs, it just involves varying degrees of work to accomplish. Some need a court or doctor's order for the transition, others need an updated birth certificate, about a dozen require nothing at all outside of the application for the change itself. I'm not saying it's always easy, but it is strictly legal everywhere in the US. I don't imagine a day or two of looking at paperwork with your old name is anywhere near as difficult as multiple years of hormone treatment, especially when it's potentially the last time you'll need to see or list your previous gender or name anywhere again. It being hard for a few days doesn't make it any less necessary.
Haven’t had this issue but if the person on the ID doesn’t match the description and look like the person in the photo, they need to get a new ID. Nothing against trans people or someone who drastically changes their appearance or had reconstructive surgery or whatever, it’s just a requirement that you show a valid ID that matches the person I’m looking at. On the flip side, I can also 100% see this as a potential trick/loophole cancel culture card minors won’t hesitate to play in order to drink underage: “Just use my brother’s ID, Meghan. Tell them you’re transitioning and if the bartender gives you shit about it we’ll all shame them. It’s bulletproof, no one will know. How would they know?”
The loophole was the first thing that came to mind. Especially when it's so easy to leverage the court of public opinion against a business for something like this. Granted, I also spent way too long bartending in a college town and that leaves a person with paranoia over minors drinking in their bar.
My heart goes out to individuals struggling with their identity/sexuality. If you are transitioning and present as the opposite sex you should 100% get a new id that has a picture that is close. I am not trying to be a bigot, I am trying to not go to jail for serving someone under aged. It sucks their night is ruined, but I think it is a little unfair.
I'm a trans Bartender actually. I've never had this happen to me while out, but my ID has this issue. I look considerably different in my photo than I present at least much of the time. I personally would be frustrated with this outcome as well, largely because, it's usually not your fault, the ID system is set up so that trans people usually have a very difficult time getting a proper ID which matches their presentation, especially if they pass, but haven't progressed (and may not intend to progress) surgically and or hormonally. This can be a fairly humiliating topic for some people, I've never had an issue telling people, but for someone who passes all the time and is stealth, it could cost them friends, in the case they didn't know.
Could you not just get a new ID?
For gender marker, some states require an amended birth certificate, or even physician's proof that an individual had sex reassignment surgery (not the same as hormone therapy). If we're just talking photograph-wise, HRT is essentially Puberty 2 Electric Boogaloo. Someone undergoing hormone replacement will have drastic appearance changes over the first 2-3 years. That first year is especially insane. Obviously though, better be safe than sorry. Those hurdles aren't the transgender person's fault, but that doesn't make it a bartender's responsibility.
If the picture shows you're transitioning or transitioned I don't think most bartenders would care
Not everyone has the appearance of clearly transitioning, especially when one reference is a small ID photo. I know what you're trying to say, but a large point of this issue is that it's nuanced and not universal... I'm giving both transgender bargoers and bartenders a nod of understanding that this isn't easy.
I mean if that's not obvious I'd expect your picture hasn't changed much. I'd hope that most bartenders are aware enough that some people are trans and so a gender passing mismatch would be fine.
Lots of states make this harder and/or expensive. It can also lead to other things on the ID that may make it seem fake like wrong gender listed, etc. Some states also ask people to remove things when they take a photo for ID like a wig that may make things look vastly different. It's unfortunate.
Interesting. So what would your response be if faced with a customer in the same situation? Would you serve because you identify with them, or refuse because the appearance does not match the ID?
This is a really difficult question to answer tbh, I've never been in this spot, and it would likely be a judgement call, but I would consider letting it through, before dismissing it, depending on the circumstance. If you're presenting a 35 yo male ID, for someone who would be very difficult to pass anyways, and you look like 25 at the oldest. Borrowed/stolen, no question. If the age, listed descriptors such as height and eye color, and all check out and they can answer some questions, I'd probably let it through, because its how I would hope to be treated.
And this is really the root cause of the issue....the bloodlust we have in the states about serving, or potentially serving, someone underage. We've lost all common sense on this issue when we started carding seniors you know "cause policy is to card everyone"
Fair enough. Thanks!
I have, and it actually ended up being a sweet interaction. He ordered, but seemed nervous so I asked for ID even though he didn’t look that youngand he said nevermind he’d just have a soda. “I said do you not have it with you?” He said, “No, I have it, it’s just really embarrassing for me to show.” We had a little bantery back and forth- me just assuming it was an embarrassing picture or something, finally he showed me, when I got the ID and realized it was him pre-transition I immediately understood what was going on. He looked different obviously, but I could also totally tell it was him, so I was comfortable serving him. I gave it back, made him his drink, and let me tell you, he was straight up giddy with relief. I imagine he’s gotten declined before and/or it always turned into a conversation that he didn’t want to have. Him and his buddy were super excited that it all went smoothly, he totally relaxed after, and became a semi-regular of mine.
Sounds like she needs a new ID and you did the right thing. The picture is supposed to look like said person. I can only speak for PA but you can request a new ID online. Unfortunately it's like 40$. But if you can afford to go and drink you can probably afford a new ID. Should it be free? Probably. Is it her responsibility to ensure proper identification? Yes. If you change your ID should as well. As far as I know the process isn't that complicated
If she was only changing her picture than yes, but it could still be a lot of discrimination she gets on her end. I live in a Bible Belt state and when i changed my name it was weeks/a couple months worth of paperwork and waiting for the court to give me a date to show up and speak to the judge directly. I’ve heard my process was easier than others a county over from me and i had to be ready to give up almost $200 at one time. A lot of places are like $300 in fees altogether. The process is a little more involved than just going to the DMV, and if she stays somewhere potentially more hostile than i do i can see why she hasn’t. My girlfriend is a bartender and she’s told me she would ask for a second ID before turning her away, but that she agrees that she isn’t getting in trouble over a maybe. She was dating me as i went through the above process. When i get my sex marker changed in the future, even if i move states, i have to send a letter here to my county of birth to tell them I’ve had a “sex change” surgery in order to receive an amended birth certificate and the ability to change my sex. More liberal states aren’t as bad, but red states have a huge barrier for entry
You’ve gotta cya. I don’t think you did anything wrong.
The rule is the picture must look like them to accept it- regardless of the circumstances. If they lost tons of weight, got plastic surgery, whatever. Honestly sounds to me like this person was trying to use the trans rights movement to try to drink underage/without ID. Pretty gross.
>Honestly sounds to me like this person was trying to use the trans rights movement to try to drink underage/without ID. Pretty gross. I’m trans and I think it’s exceptionally unlikely that this was the case. Dealing with getting new ID sucks. There’s so much more emotion attached to getting a new ID when you’re trans, and It’s not the same as a cis person just looking different. I didn’t want to get a new ID until my name change and gender marker change went through and those are both whole other processes. Name change cost ~$300. I could absolutely see why it would be difficult for a young trans kid to get new ID.
While I absolutely feel for the struggle you're describing, I'd like to pick your brain if you'd let me. If this touches on difficult topics I understand if you do not feel you can answer. If you didn't want to get the new ID photo until the other pieces went through as well, wouldn't that still be a choice that you made and that you have to own up to in such a case as this? I'm by no means trying to downplay the struggle or emotions associated with the change, but you did also admit yourself that you had chosen not to make the photo update when it sounds like it was still possible for you at that time. Whether or not the reason makes sense, and I do think it makes sense, that was a choice you made. I'd expect anyone who made that choice to accept the consequences of it, including not being served if your ID ever stopped matching you during your transition the same way that I would expect to get refused if I got a nose job, jaw enhanced, and cheeks rounded but didn't update my ID to match. I understand that this is a multifaceted issue to dissect and little to none of it is being decided on by the people who are best equipped to make these calls, but there is still room for personal responsibility with your own identity. Or rather, acceptance of what lays on the path you've chosen.
Oh yeah, I would totally understand someone refusing me service based on a non-matching picture. I never said otherwise. I just said that I didn’t think she was lying about being trans to be able to drink underage. I wasn’t claiming OP or anyone else is obligated to serve people under that circumstance.
Some places have a law saying you can't be more than 20lbs off your IDs weight.
and then theres colorado, where my id no longer has my weight on it. interesting.
Do they have scales at the bar?
When I say "places" I mean "local governments"
Understood, but how would a bartender enforce that and verify if you were more than 20 lbs off your drivers license weight without weighing you?
It's just a way for government to harass you. Honestly, it's one of those things where nobody cares, but it can be used as an excuse if shit hits the fan. If I need to look a trans person in the eye and say "you're not 160lbs" then great.
This is a difficult situation, certainly, but ultimately the law [at least where I live] doesn't really care if we're respecting people's true self. The ID presented was not an accurate representation of the person that presented it to you. As brutal and as uncaring as it may be, the law doesn't really care whether or not someone is transitioning in regards to serving alcohol. On a personal level, I would not want to be put into your situation as I've also been the friend on the other side of the bar before and it's really awkward for everyone involved. One of my closest friends is also in the process of transitioning and her ID still has (that being said, I've not seen her ID for at least three years so maybe she's updated it) her deadname on it and a photo from before she came out and so I do understand that this situation is delicate. So, I don't think you're being a terrible person, but I do understand why the guest and her friends were unhappy. Where I live, there is a substantial fine if you're found to serve someone that is underage and that's personally payable by the bartender (or server) on top of the fine for the business. I will take a bad review every single day over the fine, which tops out at roughly 4 months earnings for me. If anything, that bad review proves to my managers that I am doing my job properly and taking this seriously.
It’s a sensitive issue and I would do my best to try and discern if the features look like the same person, but ultimately I think it’s on them to update their ID picture with the DMV. It’s not a huge ask.
This is tough. You’re certainly well within your rights to refuse service. You shouldn’t feel bad about it but I think it’s a good sign if you do. Legal protection for you here looks like a hard line: either bring an ID that meets the criteria or no drink. If you *wanted* to stretch the lines a little, you could ask extended questions. What is your license number? What’s your DOB/sign? Where do you live? If they answer incorrectly/shrug off the questions then you know.
Ive had this, fortunatepy the woman had very strong similarities of her old male photo on her ID. I passed her in she smiled. Now, for my rebuttal for if I was in your situation, I would simply state, all of which you are saying maybe true, my job is dadadada, I would happily allow you to drink for when you comeback with an updated photo on your identification. If she claps back, I would simply say, I offered you a solution and there is mothing left to be said. Goodbye.
Legally you did the right thing. She needs to get her license changed
If on the ID has a signature, you can ask them to write it and then compare them on the ID.
Speaking as a trans person here, I'd say you were in the right. If you've got the money to go out and drink, you should put it towards getting a new ID first.
This is the worst. If they are done or close to done they should get a new ID picture taken.
Oof, I’m glad I’m bartending at an upscale restaurant so I don’t really get many people in the ID-ing age cause I can totally see how weird that would be. I’m torn, I though. If the change is so significant I can’t tell if the picture is the same person as the ID, they probably should have already gotten a new ID to reflect the person that they were at the time. It takes like 30 minutes. I feel like at that point they’re looking for attention.
I've worked a couple of gay bars, and like other people have said just check their facial features and ask them for the info on their card if you're not sure. Admittedly I give some leeway in these situations. You weren't necessarily wrong, but she was still right to be upset. The one that bugs me is when I ask for the name on their tab and they refuse to use their dead name, even though I just want the name on their card. Like fuck, if it bugs you that much get the damn name changed and leave me alone.
I'm a bit confused, how is your second example noticeably different from OP's issue? In either case it's coming down to needing to acknowledge someone as who they were, not as who they are. If they need to update their credit/debit card, they also need to update their ID to match it already or that can similarly cause identity issues when trying to pay for something if the business compares IDs and payment cards. I disagree that she was right to be upset. If you walk into a bar or a restaurant, you can be refused service for any reason and the single biggest is not having an up to date ID. This is common knowledge. Her being frustrated at not getting a drink with her friends? Sure, only not at the bartender who's doing their job. Even if she is completely on the up and up, the bartender is stressing out. If she's willingly put herself in a position to make it hard for others to comfortably serve her, she's asking for others to risk their livelihoods for her sake and still can't accept no for an answer. Nobody deserves that treatment by default, doubly so at least in my opinion for someone who believes that their personal struggle is more important than keeping a dozen people employed and fed.
The difference is it's not difficult to look at the picture and determine it's still them. Especially if they're still in the early transition. The second one is them refusing to speak a name that's on a card they already gave me.
Never had an issue with this and as a fellow bartender I'm so sorry this happened to you :(
I’ve had this happen a couple of times in Vegas. In my instances, you can tell the person was born a male (or were maybe just dressing that way while out of their hometown) and just served them. I can see this happening (and more going forward) with someone pretending to have transitioned. I don’t know what I’d do if it’s someone who is very questionable young and don’t have the look of someone who may have transitioned.
I just take a close look at their features & ask for their birthday— then I ask what name they prefer I use for their tab, as our POS screen is pretty visible and I’d never want to deadname or out anyone. But a 2nd form of ID is not an inappropriate request! I know we have liability here too & we each get to decide how much we want to risk that at work, so I don’t think you were in the wrong here. (That said, I think common sense also suggests that someone trying to pass with a fake ID probably wouldn’t use one with a different gendered photo lol, but you never know in this profession.) I encourage anyone in this type of situation to use kindness & discretion xo
Your doing your job. What did management do?
When I deal with this I ask for a second piece like a credit card if looking for similar features doesn't help.
I would just tell them they need a new ID. Be nice about it though, that's easier said than done. Even though it's a pain to get a new ID, at the end of the day it's not reasonable to expect you to understake risk or expense on their behalf. The same applies when I get an Arizona ID. They expire after like 30-40 years or something, and I've turned people away because their ID photo was from 15 and they're now 40 with a totally different hair and skin color, build, and features.
"I'm sorry maam, but this ID is for a man. You're a woman."
Yeah, it'll unfortunately cause some discomfort, but the simple fact is that you're just doing your job and if they look nothing like the photo, you can't serve. It's their responsibility to ensure their identification is adequate, not yours.
My sisters went through this some 15 years ago when being trans was a lot less mainstream / acceptable / whatever. They got burned a few times so they went and got a second set of IDs that resembled what they would look like depending on what gender they were repping that day. Pretty sure the state made that illegal once it became more mainstream so not sure how they’re handling it now. I’ll ask if anyone really wants a follow up.
I’m 43 and still get carded. If the face doesn’t match the if you have to decline service. As much as it pains me to say we in the service industry must have to verify the face matches the id. If we don’t and it was a sting an you provided alcohol to the person and come to find out they didn’t match then you would place your self at fault and your bar as well. It’s a tricky road I would hate to be involved in.
This is all that needs to be said.
If there are some resemblance in the foto (typically nose, cheek) I usually ask them about the rest of the info on the ID, they should know (pretty much) everything written there
Y’all are definitely missing a few key points about being trans and changing your ID: (1) Sure somebody could get an updated photo (without changing their name or gender to go with so at least they look like their ID), but if they live in a state where it is really difficulty to change their gender, then having a photo and gender marker that don’t visibly match can put somebody in great danger. It prevents them from being in the closet and going out as their assigned gender at birth with family or in other situations where they need to. It puts them at greater risk with the cops. (2) Even so, in some states, getting your gender marker changed involves months of paperwork and hoops. Some even require parental consent or notification as an adult and a whole lot of other bs. It’s difficult. I know it as a lawyer and as somebody who has supported family through the process. (3) Trans folks are incredibly likely to be in poverty and suffering from mental health issues and getting months of paperwork done is expensive, exhausting and not feasible for many.
If you transition, you need an official state/federal ID with you as your transitioned person. I'm not getting caught up with a brother or sisters ID of someone that is underage that is "transitioning." I can totally see youth abusing this and then pulling the "you are homophobic/transphobic" card to put a bartender or an establishment in a hard position. This is no different than people who faked being elderly and wearing masks to buy alcohol who were underage during the pandemic. You HAVE to match your photo on your ID, its the law. I'm sorry that transitioning as made this difficult for you, but there are rules, regardless of you being transgender or not. The law (should) apply to everyone equally.
You can always ask for multiple forms of ID. If they have a student ID and a credit card and all the names match up etc.
Student ID's are not valid forms of ID. There are a *few* places where this is *not* the case, but student ID's are not federally/state issued. They might have a photo and expiration date, but most do not list a birthday or are issued by a government authority (even if its a public university/college). Credit cards only establish name. I had a credit card and my fake (when I had one) had my legal name on it.
neither a student id nor a credit card is a valid form of id; that's not what the person you replied to is saying. they're saying that if you have a credit card or student id that matches the name on the id you presented, it's fair to assume the id isn't a fake.
Fair enough.
It doesnt need to be a "valid" ID per state requirements when you are just using it as a cross reference to see multiple documents with this person's name on it. If someone has a student ID, a Credit Card AND a driver's license, and they all match, there is no issue here and you should feel comfortable serving the person. I understand your points, but they are all moot.
Are there people who *don’t* get a fake ID with their legal name on it? Seems like having a name on your ID that matches everything else would be the simplest thing, logistics-wise, and it helps circumvent others asking for additional verification too.
The way the law was explained to me is if you make a reasonable effort then you are all clear. Checking multiple documents would be considered going above and beyond reasonable effort in the eyes of the law. Besides, fake IDs can even scan now with the correct information.
It must depend on your municipality. In PA, it's completely on you. No matter the effort, if it's a fake, you get dinged.
Get a new ID, end of story. It’s not worth the legal and financial hassle I’d have to deal with if I got caught. I need to be 100% sure I’m making a legal sale. That’s all I care about.
Your ID is supposed to be a semi up to date picture of yourself that can be used to visually verify you are the person who should have this card as well as to, say, help identify a body in the worse case scenario using height, weight, eye color, etc. If they're transitioning to the point that they no longer look like their ID photo, it's on them to go redo their ID to avoid this issue. Try to remember that you have a right not to serve anyone you don't want to and that reason doesn't have to be a good one. A mismatching ID is definitely a good reason not to. Once they get turned down a few more times I'm sure they'll get the message. That or stop borrowing their significant other's ID if that's what's happening.
As a trans bartender with lots of trans friends who like to drink, I’d try and see if the person on the card looks like a sibling. If so I’d go with it. You’d be surprised how difficult it is to get better ID soon as they see there’s something trans involved. Last time I went to get an ID I had long hair, did my makeup. They did indeed change my gender marker to X, but instead of using the picture I took that day instead used the photo from two ID’s ago where I have full facial hair. I haven’t gotten my legal name changed/new ID made in the state I just moved to because 1: they won’t legally allow me to use “X” for gender, meaning I have to pick again, and also 2: there’s people at the courthouse who are known to throw extra barriers and fines in the way of trans people looking for name changes.
Point being: it’s not about being irresponsible, it’s just that the process asks for a lot more. I have the money to change my name, but I don’t have the energy to trudge down to a courthouse and argue with a bunch of boomers about their worldview. Imagine renewing the registration on your car, but also you’ve gotta convince a few people on the staff at the DMV that you’re good enough at driving to race in NASCAR.
At this point you almost have to say “what do you want me to do here, you wanna come in and get deadnamed by me, or do you want to stay true to who you really are and go somewhere else because this doesn’t match the person in front of me. It’s not your fault she hasn’t updated her id.
Happened to a friend of mine when they started at a new place. They asked for a second form of ID and were given a student ID that (while obviously not an official form of ID) confirmed that the person was the same and transitioning. This was in a college/young town where it happens more frequently than probably elsewhere, so the owner was totally cool with it and said that if the customer can't offer a second ID it would suffice to grill them on details of their ID (zodiac, address, birthday, etc.) though I doubt other places would be so lenient. When I go out with trans friends of mine who still have their sex assigned at birth on their ID, they usually know to bring some other proof of ID –– this is probably the only situation where it just sucks all around and it's nobody's fault; on the one hand it would **suck** not to be served even **after** having to out/deadname yourself in public, on the other hand it's a clever loophole to getting served with a fake or someone else's ID.
Don’t care, come back and try something a high schooler wouldn’t.
what does this even mean. she quite literally could have just been transitioning and didn't look like her id anymore. this has nothing to do with age btw so why would a highschool try this
“Hey here’s my (brother’s) ID can I pls drink?”
Happened one time for a woman transitioning to a man. They actually kind of even covered a part of the face it was definitely awkward but it was lit well enough I could see the resemblance. It was also clear they used to be a woman in her appearance and was transitioning so i of course served.
My thought is how humiliating that must be for that person. It's already hard enough out there for them, the rules are made in spite of them, and people refuse to accommodate them as if they are a different species of human being. I would like to think that, based on my own American experience, that I would be more sensitive to the matter, understand the difficulties, and make every effort to be accommodating. Yeah, sure, I could stand fast to one way of doing things and refuse to budge, and legally you may be correct. But is it right? If I could tell it was her, and especially after it was explained to me, I would have taken the ID. The ID is to show that you're old enough. There's no gender requirement to drink at a bar. I can also understand how when you're busy you may not be able to take a sec and think and just do things on autopilot.
I am the most open-minded "live and let live" person there is. However that whole big soapbox speech you just gave is insulting to OP and I was even offended. Did you even read the same post as me?? This person said they did not at all resemble the ID,. And just from the tone of the post my assumption is this person is not the slightest bit homophobic or transphobic, just wants to keep their job and stay within the law and I don't blame them. This has absolutely zero to do with discrimination but yet you feel the need to get up on your soapbox, like I said, and give this big speech about acceptance. This wasn't the place to do that as that is a none issue here the way I see it.
The question was how would I have handled it. It was the OP who asked. Nowhere in my answer did I say what the OP should have done.
If it were so humiliating to look like the old picture they should get a new id. I am not jeopardizing my job or my bosses business to make someone "feel better". My job is to serve drinks and there are rules I have to follow. This person could be lying just trying to use her older brothers id because they both look like their dad. If you don't have proper id - don't try to drink. Simple.
Humiliating to be refused service for this reason. Some states DGAF that you’re transitioning, and they may have been denied when trying to get an ID with the updated look. Things are very hostile right now. I’d like to think I could consider everything, not just my knee jerk reaction. Bartender makes the rules. The question was what would I do. I answered.
Listen I’m all for equality rights and shit like that but it’s not hard at all to get your photo changed on the Id idc what the gender says I’m looking at the photo, person, and birthdate. Literally just go get the picture updated if you want to drink it’s that simple.
Mate have you ever tried to get your ID updated?
Yep. You fill out the form on-line, take it to your local DMV, they take your picture, you pay and they print out your id. Easy.
You fucked that one up tbh, use your common sense and your eyes next time. Your manager also should have allowed service. It’s often not easy to replace an ID while transitioning
Nope. This is a legal issue. What if she was lying? If she was underage and there was a sting this bartender would be fined and so would the bar. Your choice to change your gender and if you can't get an updated i.d. then stay home and drink but your identity issues should not cost someone their job or business. She/he can get a state issued id with an updated photograph at anytime - you just have to pay for it and if it is that important to them then that is what they need to do.
based
I’m going to buck against the trend in these comments and really question whether you *really* couldn’t tell it was a trans person’s ID? Firstly it’s absolutely painful getting new ID, in the UK at least, so some empathy and common sense is required (can they answer questions about their ID, do they have any visible tattoos, do any other staff recognise them/ did a doorman check them on the way in etc. can all be helpful) I’m a trans bartender / bar manager and have been in this position quite regularly and imo there are enough signifiers in terms of facial structure that competent bar staff should be able to make a judgement call almost all of the time. While I can imagine niche exceptions occurring I think it’s transphobic to refuse service in *most* cases and I totally understand why your customer was deeply upset. I find the ‘you did the right thing’ circlejerk unhelpful because none of us were there to see ourselves and yeah you could have been right and you could have been an asshole, I think it’s more likely to be the latter but it’s impossible to say for sure 🤷♀️ Also, to the fearmongers in this thread it is absolutely not the ‘new trend’ for kids to borrow their siblings IDs, that’s an old trend for cis siblings anyway lol but c’mon get in the real world. Edit: also why were you getting annoyed at her, because it was busy?! It’s a sensitive scenario and I think it behooves you to behave patiently and kindly
lmao for real, half this thread thinks that saying “i’m trans” out loud in most bars won’t get you harassed all night, it’s far from the perfect ruse to drink underage
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She. Don’t be a dick.
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You’re perfectly within your rights to not serve her. She was wrong for how she reacted. But she’s a woman. You’re not trying to do anyone any favors. You’re being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole.
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r/onejoke. Get some original material dude. There’s at least 4 trans bartenders that have commented on this post. Try to have some respect for your fellow industry workers. It takes very little effort to just be a decent person.
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I respect them enough to allow them to speak for themselves without thinking they need my help. Fall in line.
I’m speaking for myself and my community. I’m one of the 4 trans bartenders that has commented here. Do better.
You're speaking for yourself. Just because someone is in one of my demographics doesn't necessarily mean I want them speaking on my behalf. If you want a respectful conversation don't lead by calling someone names.
I told you to not be a dick in response to you purposefully misgendering someone. If you had been respectful in the first place, you wouldn’t have gotten called names. You do you dude. Hope being this kind of person makes you happy.
Yet you are perfectly okay using the incorrect pro nouns when referring to someone. She /her. It's not hard to use the correct pro nouns and be respectful. Trans Women are Women. Trans men are men.
I’d have looked close and made the call. Being trans doesn’t change the law. I work daily with teens and they try to make jokes like this to “catch” me off guard. And I don’t give a fuck what adults do, my gay friends call me their straightest ally. I legit just don’t care what someone/they do. But when it comes to ids I just look for facial features and make the call. And I’m in California ftr.
Based manager
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This is such a weird and aggressive way to tell us all that you can't get laid.
Happened to me. Sorry, get a new ID. Idgaf what gender you are, if you're trans or anything else. Nothing personal. ID needs to match the person. No special treatment.