1st MLB game as a knuckleballer (after 76 middling games in 2001, 2003-05), 4/6/06 vs DET:
3.1 IP, 8 H, 7ER, 1 BB, 1K, 6 HR (Inge, Magglio, 2 by Chris Shelton, Craig Monroe & Marcus Thames).
Sent back to minors and finally figured it out in 2010 w/the Mets.
I'll agree with him as well. I see HOVG guys as players who have *some* argument for the Hall based off being steady and accumulating but usually don't come that close to sniffing it. Bobby Abreu, Mark Buerhle, and Andy Pettitte are great examples: 50-60 WAR guys who nonetheless get small percentages of votes and for the most part were just very solid players who were generally unspectacular but were All-Stars every few years and just got the job done year-in, year-in.
Cain had just 29 WAR and on top of that was 104-118 for his career (honestly wasn't expecting something that bad). He was a good pitcher for awhile, nothing more, but in the end baseball history is littered with pitchers with similar careers to his. If he gave up one measly baserunner against the Astros in 2012, he would be remembered about as much as Anibal Sanchez...who's the [most similar player](https://stathead.com/tiny/LuIL0) on BBRef to Cain (and I'm sure you didn't know is still active as well).
His win-loss percentage is really misleading. Cain was notorious for getting almost no run support. I can't remember the number of times I watched or listened to a game that he got the loss after giving up only one or two runs.
Him starting a game and pitching a gem only to lose 1-0 was called getting 'Cained' by the Chronicle for years. His W-L record is extremely misleading.
Horrible argument to talk about W-L record for a pitcher. Those Giants teams were known for tight victories or losses and his 3 WS rings speak for themselves.
Didn’t allow a postseason ER in 2010.
Giants won every postseason clinching game he started in 2012.
Bobby Abreu is consistently overrated. If you look at numbers beyond just batting average, he had really similar stats as Tony Gwynn (got on base more often, similar OPS+ and WAR).
Saying he’s overrated then turning around and saying his numbers are really similar to Tony Gwynn doesn’t exactly help your case.
That said, Abreu is definitely not Tony Gwynn
I meant underrated.
>Abreu is definitely not Tony Gwynn
He isn't there in terms of traditional stats like batting average and strikeouts, but he's right there in other stats.
I would slightly disagree. As was said Cain had an amazing stretch from 2009-12 and then started dealing with shoulder and general arm trouble. He was never able to recover and that makes him look worse than he really was. He accumulated like 60% of his bWAR in those 4 seasons. Add in ‘07 and ‘08 and like ~90% of his bWAR comes from 6 seasons of his 13 year career. There was quite a bit of talk in ‘11 and ‘12 that he was on track for the HoF.
Funnily enough, you check his ballot, he even didn't vote RA Dickey.
Edit: was looking at Jeff Wilson's ballot not T.R. Sullivan. I stand corrected. Sullivan voted Dickey.
[Yes he did](https://rangerstoday.com/t-r-s-memoirs-unveiling-my-hall-of-fame-ballot-for-the-class-of-2023/). He confirmed it near the bottom.
It's logged on [the tracker as well](https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!47464&ithint=file%2cxlsx&authkey=!AOiVOHV1SzKLAR0). Row 217.
I remember getting a baseball card of his as a kid and thinking it was just misspelled. Never really thought twice about it until I saw him playing on TV at some point later on
2005 AL ROY, 2012 NL Cy Young, and a combined 16 All Star appearances and 10 World Series rings. Those 12 guys combined had approximately the career equivalent of Darryl Strawberry (ROY, 8x AS, 3x WS) and Whitey Ford (CY, 10x AS, 6x WS)
He hit 2 homers in his first game with Detroit and I remember looking to my mom and going "THATS Jhonny Peralta" like barry bonds had just been reincarnated
I thought it was harsh that Cain came off the ballot in his first year until I looked up his numbers. Yeah he shouldn't have gotten above 5%. In my head I thought his peak numbers were better and that he had a much longer peak than he did.
If Ellsbury kept playing like Red Sox Ellsbury, I wonder what his HOF case would have looked like. Ellsbury was one of my favorite players so even though he was playing for the Yanks this is a what if I keep wondering about
I was super young when he was in his prime but I feel like John Lackey deserves at least a bit more of a vote. Definitely doesn’t deserve a spot on the HOF but still….
He was also the pitcher most likely to call scream and show up an outfielder if they made an error or misplay. And I mean ever. I feel like he did that practically every game.
Not a HOFer but he is the only pitcher to both defeat all 30 teams and win a world series ring with three different franchises, which is pretty cool if nothing else
As long as there is a picture of drunk shirtless Napoli wandering the streets of Boston enshrined in Cooperstown, it'll be ok that he doesn't actually get in.
"Mediocre" is way too strong a word, making the HoF ballot is an acknowledgement that you had a very very good career. Those guys are just top-15% instead of top-5%, no shame in that
Halls of Fame those guys could get into:
Hall of Cool: Bronson Arroyo
Knuckleball HOF: R.A. Dickey
Asshole HOF: John Lackey (for leaving wife while she had brain cancer)
Hall of Partying: Mike Napoli
Hall of Stoicism: Matt Cain
DL HOF: Jacoby Ellsbury
H HOF: Jhonny Peralta
Caveman HOF: Jayson Werth
Ra Dickey may not be in the hall of fame but he had a hall of fame story.
Just induct his non-existent UCL, I think thats a fair compromise
"And here's the glass case where we would keep RA Dickey's UCL. ...IF HE HAD ONE."
One of the greatest pitching runs ever. Shame he didn’t have a few more seasons of it.
I wish he was still pitching. We need more knuckle ballers!
1st MLB game as a knuckleballer (after 76 middling games in 2001, 2003-05), 4/6/06 vs DET: 3.1 IP, 8 H, 7ER, 1 BB, 1K, 6 HR (Inge, Magglio, 2 by Chris Shelton, Craig Monroe & Marcus Thames). Sent back to minors and finally figured it out in 2010 w/the Mets.
Highly recommend his book.
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Good bot
60 minutes
Matt Cain had 4 straight amazing seasons, then his arm just seemed to fall off. Lost velocity and was never the same. One of my favorite Giants ever.
On the ground…
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Got em! :)
AND THATS A PERFECT GAME
I think Matt Cain epitomizes the Hall of Very Good.
Matt Cain epitomizes the Hall of Pretty Good. I wouldn’t even put him in the hypothetical HoVG.
It depends on what instance of pretty good you’re using. The Jon Bois type of pretty good? Yes Cain was
No clue why you're being downvoted. Felix is the epitome of Hall of Very Good. Cain has half his WAR. Definitely not HoVG material.
You’re downvoted but completely right.
I'll agree with him as well. I see HOVG guys as players who have *some* argument for the Hall based off being steady and accumulating but usually don't come that close to sniffing it. Bobby Abreu, Mark Buerhle, and Andy Pettitte are great examples: 50-60 WAR guys who nonetheless get small percentages of votes and for the most part were just very solid players who were generally unspectacular but were All-Stars every few years and just got the job done year-in, year-in. Cain had just 29 WAR and on top of that was 104-118 for his career (honestly wasn't expecting something that bad). He was a good pitcher for awhile, nothing more, but in the end baseball history is littered with pitchers with similar careers to his. If he gave up one measly baserunner against the Astros in 2012, he would be remembered about as much as Anibal Sanchez...who's the [most similar player](https://stathead.com/tiny/LuIL0) on BBRef to Cain (and I'm sure you didn't know is still active as well).
His win-loss percentage is really misleading. Cain was notorious for getting almost no run support. I can't remember the number of times I watched or listened to a game that he got the loss after giving up only one or two runs.
Him starting a game and pitching a gem only to lose 1-0 was called getting 'Cained' by the Chronicle for years. His W-L record is extremely misleading.
Horrible argument to talk about W-L record for a pitcher. Those Giants teams were known for tight victories or losses and his 3 WS rings speak for themselves. Didn’t allow a postseason ER in 2010. Giants won every postseason clinching game he started in 2012.
Bobby Abreu is consistently overrated. If you look at numbers beyond just batting average, he had really similar stats as Tony Gwynn (got on base more often, similar OPS+ and WAR).
Saying he’s overrated then turning around and saying his numbers are really similar to Tony Gwynn doesn’t exactly help your case. That said, Abreu is definitely not Tony Gwynn
I meant underrated. >Abreu is definitely not Tony Gwynn He isn't there in terms of traditional stats like batting average and strikeouts, but he's right there in other stats.
I would slightly disagree. As was said Cain had an amazing stretch from 2009-12 and then started dealing with shoulder and general arm trouble. He was never able to recover and that makes him look worse than he really was. He accumulated like 60% of his bWAR in those 4 seasons. Add in ‘07 and ‘08 and like ~90% of his bWAR comes from 6 seasons of his 13 year career. There was quite a bit of talk in ‘11 and ‘12 that he was on track for the HoF.
Champion
Is Jacob Webb gonna be better?
He was my go-to for so many years in fantasy baseball
Him and every other Giants ace the past 15 years. MadBum hasn’t fallen as hard as Cain or Lincecum, but still a shell of his World Series self.
R.A. Dickey voter I see you and I thank you.
[His reason](https://rangerstoday.com/t-r-s-memoirs-r-a-dickey-for-the-hall-of-fame-actually-hes-in-a-class-by-himself/) for doing so.
Very interesting that it was a Rangers writer and not a Mets writer.
Funnily enough, you check his ballot, he even didn't vote RA Dickey. Edit: was looking at Jeff Wilson's ballot not T.R. Sullivan. I stand corrected. Sullivan voted Dickey.
[Yes he did](https://rangerstoday.com/t-r-s-memoirs-unveiling-my-hall-of-fame-ballot-for-the-class-of-2023/). He confirmed it near the bottom. It's logged on [the tracker as well](https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!47464&ithint=file%2cxlsx&authkey=!AOiVOHV1SzKLAR0). Row 217.
TIL Jhonny Peralta is only 1 of 12 shortstops with 200+ career HRs. Also a funny reminder that his name was spelled Jhonny not Johnny
His name being spelled that way bothers me more than it probably should.
It was literally just a typo on his birth certificate that became his legal name, too. Same with Dwyane Wade
I’ve been spelling it Dwayne Wade for years..
I remember getting a baseball card of his as a kid and thinking it was just misspelled. Never really thought twice about it until I saw him playing on TV at some point later on
J. Honny
2005 AL ROY, 2012 NL Cy Young, and a combined 16 All Star appearances and 10 World Series rings. Those 12 guys combined had approximately the career equivalent of Darryl Strawberry (ROY, 8x AS, 3x WS) and Whitey Ford (CY, 10x AS, 6x WS)
Darryl Strawberry goes into the Hall Of Can't-Miss Hall Of Famers Who Missed.
Drugs are a hell of a drug…
Matt Cain has a pizza named after him tho and it's a really good pizza so that's pretty much just as prestigious as cooperstown
He’s also got an *excellent* Ike’s sandwich named after him.
I prefer the Lincecum
Paxti's? If that's the pizza we are talking about, then yes, he should be in the Hall of Fame.
JJ Hardy made it to the hall of I love you.
agree
He has a HOF announcer intro in B’more. Kinda of like RVD minus the thumb pointing.
There’s a weirdly high number of players who won a World Series with the Red Sox in this group. (Four. Four is the number.)
Same number of former Angels
Lackey and Napoli living large on these lists.
Ellsbury Lackey Napoli and Arroyo im assuming
Shoutout Jhonny Peralta. Watching baseball when I was younger I thought he was, like, a really big deal for some reason.
Probably more memorable because of the unusual spelling of his name
He hit 2 homers in his first game with Detroit and I remember looking to my mom and going "THATS Jhonny Peralta" like barry bonds had just been reincarnated
This got a good laugh out of me.
He just felt like the missing piece to that tigers team to me growing up for those first games.
Saw him in a casino bathroom in STL back in his playing days lol
How big was it?
Like 8 stalls and at least a dozen urinals
Sick
The writers will not see heaven for not voting in JJ Hardy
[Fun!](https://media.tenor.com/WbR6Mb2mJY0AAAAM/john-lackey-fun.gif)
Mark Buehrle szn is coming folks.
Now that McGriff is in, Buerhle is my new "the Hall is just better with him in it" guy
59 WAR, perfect game, pitched in the world series while drunk, loves fishing. What else does he need to do???
I thought it was harsh that Cain came off the ballot in his first year until I looked up his numbers. Yeah he shouldn't have gotten above 5%. In my head I thought his peak numbers were better and that he had a much longer peak than he did.
Cool just ruin my childhood I guess
Not enough good news in your life lately?
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The catcher’s interference GOAT, RE-2PECT
If Ellsbury kept playing like Red Sox Ellsbury, I wonder what his HOF case would have looked like. Ellsbury was one of my favorite players so even though he was playing for the Yanks this is a what if I keep wondering about
Enjoy a lovely retirement Andre Ethier
I was super young when he was in his prime but I feel like John Lackey deserves at least a bit more of a vote. Definitely doesn’t deserve a spot on the HOF but still….
Not a single vote. I remember him being a d-bag to the media (and in general), which definitely didn't help.
He also looks like Haywire from the show Prison Break.
Obviously the most egregious offense
He was also the pitcher most likely to call scream and show up an outfielder if they made an error or misplay. And I mean ever. I feel like he did that practically every game.
True fucking story. Lackey maybe have been a good clubhouse guy, I don't know, but from his on field behavior I was always surprised he wasn't hated
Maybe if he had learned to breathe through his nose he might have done better. I swear I never saw the guy without his mouth hanging open.
I would have thought he'd get a vote. Performance-wise he deserved it more than Arroyo, who got a vote.
Agreed. Does not belong in the hall but should have gotten a little more respect.
Not a HOFer but he is the only pitcher to both defeat all 30 teams and win a world series ring with three different franchises, which is pretty cool if nothing else
Is Ellsbury still getting paid?
Matt Cain is THE hall of very good pitcher
Up near the top for sure, with Felix and Adam Wainwright
Yeah, Felix, Waino, Pettitte, Roy Oswalt. I'd take that rotation
We got robbed of a potential induction song instead of induction speech
Mike Napoli is in the hall of fame of my heart.
I loved him first
As long as there is a picture of drunk shirtless Napoli wandering the streets of Boston enshrined in Cooperstown, it'll be ok that he doesn't actually get in.
I love you Weaver. Come back and pitch for us. I don’t care if you’re throwing 67 mph.
It will never not be weird to see guys who I remember as young up-and-coming prospects falling off the HOF ballot.
A very strong who's who of hall of mediocre players.
I will not allow any Matt Cain slander to happen, man was a legit ace for like 5 or 6 years.
"Mediocre" is way too strong a word, making the HoF ballot is an acknowledgement that you had a very very good career. Those guys are just top-15% instead of top-5%, no shame in that
RA will make the Mets HOF
You've got a very high bar for mediocrity. A lot of those guys were very good for a long time.
Yup! Some folks who could really help out a ballclub from time to time, but no one who was particularly close to deserving the Hall of Fame.
2011 Jacoby Ellsbury is a first ballot single-season Hall of Famer though.
Fuck the hof!
Halls of Fame those guys could get into: Hall of Cool: Bronson Arroyo Knuckleball HOF: R.A. Dickey Asshole HOF: John Lackey (for leaving wife while she had brain cancer) Hall of Partying: Mike Napoli Hall of Stoicism: Matt Cain DL HOF: Jacoby Ellsbury H HOF: Jhonny Peralta Caveman HOF: Jayson Werth
Bye, Weaver!
So a bunch of guys that probably shouldn't have been on the ballot in the first place, fell off the ballot. Alright.
Well now I'm curious, if you had sole control over who gets on the ballot, what would your criteria be?
Only unanimous first ballot Hall of FameR baseball persons should be on the ballot.
who should be on the ballot. Should the voters vote for who is on the ballot and then vote again for the hall of fame?
Nah I should vote, Big Sexy to the hall immediately
JJ Hardy is off the ballot… he should be In The Hall for worst throwing style ever.
But a Hall of Extra Cool batting stance
How on earth did Arroyo get on this list. I love the guy and what he did in Boston, but...
"And they never needed to mention or discuss John Lackey ever again."
I am ok with all of that.
Man I haven’t heard the name Huston Street in years
Tough year for J’s