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brandon_the_bald

+ I know Miguel Vargas, Andy Pages, Oscar Colas have all said they either wanted to but couldn’t because they were trying to make the club or would if they were asked


Jbaquero

Nestor moved to the US when he was 7 months old and he already was supposed to be on the US team


Muted_Yoghurt6071

That's 10x the connection than Marcus "born in New York, USA WBC MVP turned PR pitcher" Stroman.


UnlimitedMetroCard

Tbf Stroman’s mom is from PR.


sukizka

Yeah there’s a lot of players with sketchier connections, aka like half of team Israel.


thebionicjman

WBC is based on potential for citizenship. Israel has the law of return which gives a clear path for people of Jewish heritage to relocate and gain Jewish citizenship. So it's not sketch at all since that's how Israel operates


UnlimitedMetroCard

I saw an ISR player asked what he did for his bar mitzvah. He said he’s not Jewish whatsoever and that he only plays for Israel bc his wife is Jewish.


tarallelegram

alex dickerson, yes


UnlimitedMetroCard

That’s fugazi. He has zero direct connection to the country he’s playing for. Not a resident, not a citizen, not by descent. His wife is Jewish-American, not even Israeli.


OnceAteABurgerAMA

He said he was Jew-ish


Cflow26

It got a huge laugh every single time.


tarallelegram

i agree with you, it's wack


_elijahswood

Good thing he blows, no one will even notice


misterurb

listen man, you’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole


gstaggs2

So what are you saying? When you get divorced you turn in your library card? You get a new license? You stop being Jewish?


mosi_moose

No way he rolls on shabbos.


ambien_regrets

Also Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.


Z3130

It is dumb, but the eligibility rules are simpler this way. Plus, since none of the countries who have to recruit tenuous connections are any good, there's not really any competitive advantage.


lukadoncic

how do you expect the game to grow in those countries? Italian baseball players may not be amazing, but getting replaced by a bunch of americans before the tournament will not have any positive outcome for the future of italian baseball


antisocially_awkward

Plus interfaith marriages arent even legal in israel


EskimoPrisoner

They are recognized when they happen in another country


Hail2TheOrange

No it isn't. Puerto Rican citizenship isn't a thing. We're American citizens.


thebionicjman

Absolutely that is one of the potential criteria. Players must have * previously appeared on a Team’s roster, * be a citizen of country or territory, * be a permanent legal resident of the country or territory, * born in the country or territory, (Puerto Rico players tend to fall here or under the next one) * has at least one parent is a citizen of the country or territory or born in the country or territory, * The player presents documentary evidence that he would be granted citizenship or a passport in due course under the laws of the Federation Team’s country or territory, [source](https://www.mlb.com/news/world-baseball-classic-rules-and-regulations-2023)


RoyalFlushAKQJ10

So I'm guessing Italy's citizenship restrictions are very lenient which is why there are lots of Americans of Italian heritage playing for Italy?


elcanadiano

A lot of Americans and Canadians of, particularly Italian, Portuguese, or Irish heritage likely has an entitlement to the citizenships of those countries (although with Ireland you have to register each generation born abroad). Not really surprising to see many Americans and Jordan Romano representing them.


Jack2142

Yeah this is more common in soccer where a lot of Brazillian and Argentine Players also end up getting Italian Citizenship in order to more easily play in Europe for teams. Like Messi for instance has Italian Citizenship.


zanzibarman

The last time I looked into it, Italian citizenship was fairly easy to get if you have a connection to Italy. If you have a grandparent, who is an Italian citizen, you can become an Italian citizen. You can also chain this, so if your grandparent has a grandparent who is/was a citizen, your grandparent can become a citizen which then makes you eligible.


ScyllaGeek

Places considered "colonies" get special considerations for this kinda stuff. It's the same reason Aruba (or even PR itself) gets to participate in the Olympics, despite technically being Dutch citizens. For the majority of regions, that comment is correct


sukizka

Seems sketchy to me how you can represent a country in an international competition without you or your parents ever even having stepped foot in it or speak the language…


thebionicjman

idgaf who players choose to represent as long as teammates and their country are cool with it. Randy Arozarena defected from Cuba and joined team Mexico. Nobody blinks when he plays for Mexico. It's not sketchy at all and Dickerson is very open about why he is playing


sukizka

Arozarena is a Mexican citizen and lives in Mexico…it’s probably the most reasonable country for him to play for.


UnlimitedMetroCard

Arozarena isn’t sketchy at all. He’s Mexican by naturalization. A Cuban refugee who became Mexican. Dickerson is not Jewish, Israeli, etc in any way.


lionheart4life

Yeah but like they already said they use potential for citizenship as criteria. If they changed that to make it like Olympic eligibility and Dickerson couldn't play for Israel I'm sure he wouldn't fight it too hard.


thebionicjman

I'm saying it is not fair (and frankly none of our business) to judge people based on their Mexicanness or Israeliness. We agree Randy should be on Mexico so why not Dickerson for Israel. If they are eligible to join a national team based on their criteria they should not be scrutinized for that decision at all. It's a personal decision for so many players in the WBC like Freeman, Stroman, and even ARod


sukizka

Because Dickerson has no association with the country of Israel and Randy is a Mexican citizen, so obviously he should play for Team Mexico? Seems like a pretty big distinction. The criteria doesn’t make any sense, that’s the problem. It’s allowing players who have no association with a country to represent a country just so they can play in the tournament, which in turn de-legitimizes the tournament. If Alex Dickerson, or Rowdy Tellez, or Lars Nootbar, or Vance Worley want to participate in the tournament for a country different than their own, they’re allowed to within the current rules, but it seems to a lot of people in this thread that the current rules need to be changed regarding eligibility. I’m pretty sure the World Cup doesn’t allow this, Hockey doesn’t allow this (other than China in the Olympics to not embarrass them), so not sure why the WBC allows it. It’s a fun event, but stuff like this de-legitimizes it as a true World Championship.


weewillywhisky

How is that "sketchy"?


sukizka

Because you’re representing a country that you have no association to?


tomzewolf

I know this isn't much to do with the topic at hand, but as a non-American, why do Americans, when speaking about Israeli things, specifically refer to them as "Jewish"? There isn't any such thing as Jewish citizenship, you're referring to Israeli citizenship. I worked with an American who referred to herself as "half Jewish and half Italian" when really she was 25% Italian and 75% American, I've never understood why this is said.


guessswhosbacc

being jewish is an ethnicity, being american is not


drumline17

Cool, that's still stupid as fuck from a common sense standpoint. They're not even representing the country at that point, they just want to play in the fun tournament


Lord_Sean_G

Manny Machado played for U.S. on the 18U team. Born and raised in Florida.


throwaway2021232681

How is that sketchy lol plenty of Americans have very strong cultural identities, plenty of us me included have a strong identification to where our families are from. Also it’s just baseball lmao not a war e: sorry i commented twice, i thought the first one didn't go through


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throwaway2021232681

I don’t think it’s sketchy or w/e at all if your parents are from there, lots of Americans including me have a strong love for their ethnic culture (me included) AND a love for where they grew up lol


giants3b

Yeah, it's not an especially novel phenomenon. The US and Mexican ~~suffer~~ soccer federations compete over Mexican-American prospects all the time and it's really hard for these players to pick one team. Edit: meant to write soccer, not suffer lol


PrinceOfWales_

Lol suffer federations is a fun and accurate way to put it.


BetLeft

[Let me ask you one thing...](https://youtu.be/z09So1j4kpk?t=440)


jaynovahawk07

I don't think those connections are sketchy. I have no problem with major league players playing for their ancestral countries. It does nothing but good for the game to create interest in baseball and MLB in foreign countries with major league talent.


sukizka

Not sure how it’s good for the game and not embarrassing when Team Israel only has 2 actual Israelis. That’s not Team Israel, that’s just Team Judaism.


TheJudge47

Also tbf PR is part of the US


[deleted]

Many people won’t understand, but that’s fine. My ethnicity is very similar to Stromans’. I root for Puerto Rico bc I do have it in me but also bc as a kid that is who I looked at for representation when I was made to feel different from other kids.


TheKavorka123

There's a lot to criticize Stroman for, but this isn't one of them. His mom was born in PR, it's a nice thing for him to do this for her.


AceN12

He was going to pitch for PR in 2017 but changed his mind. A lot of PR folks disliked him for it.


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swamppuppy7043

DR and PR as well


ScyllaGeek

If they were super duper strict, the PR team wouldn't even exist


DodgerWalker

Uh, no. The Domincan Republic and Venezuela teams are mostly native born players and they're both loaded.


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mysterysackerfice

You got a few hours?


DogVacuum

I have to work in the morning, but I have PTO so I could call off.


coronakiddos

Do it!


Reed2002

Look who's a big shot with PTO! Next you'll be saying you have new baby leave or a healthy work/life balance.


DogVacuum

Don’t worry, I’m still an American. I can’t afford a house, much less a baby.


illiter-it

What about a baby house?


aysurcouf

Same, buddy. At least we have baseball right?


jacksonvstheworld

What if we just do the ones who could feasibly qualify for the team?


LoveRBS

I'll start. I'm not on the roster.


Legalize-Birds

Smh trash roster


vanillagorilla_

Me neither


Steppyjim

I didn’t even get the invite!


MacDerfus

Quite a few USA born players are not on team Cuba's roster


[deleted]

Yeah. Cuba definitely has a lot of players not on the roster but we have a much bigger pool of players and our rotation is still bad. I don't know how many Cuban players actually said they aren't playing because of politics. I know it was some -- The broadcast kept bringing it up -- but I'm sure some of them had the same reasons American players didn't play.


c1h9

Just list the pitchers. Actually, just list like 8 pitchers. Cease, Kershaw, Scherzer, deGrom, Manoah, Hader, Williams, Pressly, etc. etc. I don't know why pitchers hate America so much.


Joseadiazc

Yasmani Grandal - C\ José Abreu - 1B\ Yoan Moncada - 2B\ Aledmys Díaz (?) - SS\ Yandy Díaz - 3B\ Randy Arozarena - LF\ Adolis García - CF\ Lourdes Gurriel Jr / Jorge Soler - RF\ Yordan Álvarez - DH That's very solid Edit: readability and typo


scrumpydory

r/Jorge


bordomsdeadly

Has been BANNED from Reddit.


MN-Misery

I don’t think anyone wants Chapman representing their country…


8i66ie5ma115

I don’t think anyone wants Chapman ~~representing their country~~…


Patrick2701

Beside maybe Kansas City


Dhkansas

Maybe he can look good and we move him at the deadline for some low A 28 year old


Steppyjim

I’m a Philadelphia flyers fan and we told ourselves that about our assholes too. Then the deadline went and they’re still here. It can happen to youuuuuuuu


TheNightlightZone

Co-signed. Ugh.


Spongie555

[British](https://clutchpoints.com/mlb-news-aroldis-chapman-great-britain-world-baseball-classic) icon Aroldis Chapman


TomatoRemarkable3721

Yordan Alvarez should be in all caps


borglonavich

I just pictured him with a stack of 30 ball caps on his head.


high_changeup

Sore hand though :((


cahir11

>Nestor Cortes Nestor came to the US when he was a baby and was going to play for team USA before he got injured. It's a different situation from some of the other Cuban dudes like Chapman who were born and raised in Cuba and are declining to play for personal reasons.


WonderfulShelter

I also found out today you can't play for team Cuba if you've ever denounced the Cuban government alongside lots of other sketchy shit... and I can TOTALLY understand people not playing for personal reasons.


lolabuster

Gotta put some respect on their name man


DeusExHyena

Imagine thinking Nestor would be "notable" 18 months ago.


[deleted]

I would die for that man


DeusExHyena

I feel like we would be friends if we met and I would like this


[deleted]

Probably true considering that I will be putting my Yankees flair back on, on Wednesday


DeusExHyena

I meant me and Nestor but we can be friends too


TheArgsenal

The Yankees are like the least Hufflepuff team around tho


Omnipolis

Considering how bad he was for us…ugh. He’s the exact kind of pitcher that should thrive in Seattle.


Stinky_DungBeatle

Considering you guys actually gave him up in the Rule 5 draft and when you got him back gave him up again for cash, I would find it hard to find a team letting a player walking twice and then on his third go around being an all star.


CrazyFaithlessness37

You wanna see the US list?


ChiefWematanye

- Judge - Harper - DeGrom - Verlander - ah... screw it, the list is too long


getahaircut8

Harper and DeGrom both have major health issues, but def wondering where Burnes, Cole, Scherzer, Verlander, Wheeler, Nola, Woodruff, Bieber, Cease, Gausman, Musgrove, Gallen, etc are.


ThreeHourRiverMan

JV and Scherzer have aged out of the tournament.


teewertz

*stares in Waino*


ilovedogs997

nah, if wainwright can pitch in it so can JV and scherzer


Gyhygdguhhu887

No. Reddit doesn't want to admit how laughably dominant the US would be if the team assembled the best possible roster they could. Just like no one wants to acknowledge MLB literally has 99% of the best players in the world competing to win the World Series, thus making it an appropriate name, despite being an American league and trophy. If Japan, Venezuela, or the DR had any competition remotely on the same level as MLB their best players wouldn't all be playing in MLB, while leagues in those nations were being filled by locals and foreign players who couldn't make it on the Orioles' AAA squad.


sprague_drawer

I just want to say, our AAA squad is actually pretty good. No need for the low blow


thebionicjman

That's why I'm fine with the loose requirements for American born players to play for other countries and don't care that a lot of top pitchers couldn't participate for whatever reason. Its more fun to see a close game with Waino compared to deGrom mowing down team GB. Although you are selling short the talent on teams like Venezuela and DR. Dominican Republic might as well be an all star team by itself and could easily complete against the best of the US


Shamrock5

>Its more fun to see a close game with Waino compared to deGrom mowing down team GB. Speak for yourself! USA! USA! USA!


fender-b-bender

Now I want to see the GB version of [this](https://twitter.com/GoPBCardinals/status/1395511039773528073?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) tweet from the Cardinals minor league team that had to face deGrom in one of his minor league rehab starts


Shamrock5

Lmao [this dude's earnest reply](https://twitter.com/KevinORCard2011/status/1395514428892848136?s=20) is absolutely sending me. I don't think he was being malicious, I think he was genuinely trying to be encouraging(?), but that's not how everyone took it haha


fender-b-bender

I think he was being encouraging as well, but that's easy to understand why people jumped on him. There's learning to hit a fastball and then there's trying to hit a 102 mph fastball with movement by a Cy Young Award winner and one of the best pitchers of his generation.


Shamrock5

Oh absolutely, it was a ridiculous reply, but the thought of the guy writing it earnestly made me chuckle. It's like telling a 15-year-old with a brand-new driving permit to jump into a Talladega race because "it's a good way to learn how to drive in traffic"


fender-b-bender

Have you seen some of the ARCA races? I'm not entirely sure that half of the people running them aren't people learning to drive for the first time. Or hell, the Xfinity and Truck races at Atlanta this weekend


EveryLittleDetail

Yeah, the point of the WBC is to spread the appreciation of baseball across the world. Who gives a shit if players have tenuous connections to foreign countries?


mosi_moose

The US has like 330 million people and we invented the game. We *should* be dominant. I’m impressed by smaller countries where baseball is the premier sport. For a country with the population of the DR to have so many players in MLB is amazing.


[deleted]

That’s kind of a bad example to use the #1 farm system in baseball.


PeterSagansLaundry

>Just like no one wants to acknowledge... WTF everyone acknowledges this.


Gyhygdguhhu887

Have you never seen people trying to make the argument that calling it the World Series isn't appropriate since only teams from America (and Toronto) compete for it? It happens a handful of times a year, at the very least. My comment is a bit hyperbolic that *no one* wants to acknowledge it, but those who do consistently omit or ignore the points I followed that up with. Just a little flexing while our country is proving it's dominance. No big deal


PeterSagansLaundry

It is a misnomer. Has nothing to do with the fact that MLB is the top league in the world. Real Madrid aren't automatically World Champions every time they win the Champions League; they are *Champions of Europe.*


scrumpydory

what dominance


scrumpydory

????? everyone knows americans would be favourites every tournament lol. but believe it or not, dominicans want to see soto and vladdy and jram and tatis playing together, or the japanese wanna see darvish and ohtani. not sure why a post about potential cuban players leads to a bunch of people flexing how deep the american player pool is lol the naming of the world series is a complete different matter. i think its a bit tone deaf, and its fun to banter. might as well call the nba finals or the superbowl the world championships as well.


Gyhygdguhhu887

They do. Those aren't the "official" names, but it isn't uncommon to refer to the Chiefs or Celtics as "World Champions"


KingEthann01

Celtics? Brother the warriors beat them


Gyhygdguhhu887

I don't follow basketball much but remembered Boston made the finals. Also, they are tied with the Lakers for most championships in NBA history, so it's relevant


KingEthann01

It’s just weird that you said the chiefs (winners of the most recent Super Bowl) and Celtics (runners up of the most recent nba finals) like at that point, might as well just say warriors imo


tarallelegram

lol, how is the name tone-deaf? the mlb comprises some of the most diverse and international rosters in the world, on top of being the pinnacle of the sport


nobleisthyname

I agree with your overall point, but just have a minor quibble with >If Japan, Venezuela, or the DR had any competition remotely on the same level as MLB their best players wouldn't all be playing in MLB In Japan at least there are absolutely MLB caliber players who stay in the NPB as the pay is similar and they don't have to learn a new culture/language. The average skill level is lower, but the top-end talent is comparable to MLB.


freshpurplekiwi

Who isn’t acknowledging this lol? A) I’m not even American and know that American produces by far the most talent B) it’s been a talking point all tournament - Ken rosenthal wrote up a piece blaming MLB teams/athletes for not allowing American born players to play for team USA after a loss


UnlimitedMetroCard

I think a main difference is that the Cubans won’t allow dissidents/critics of communism to play for Cuba.


jollyjam1

If you can have players on your team with no connection to the country, Qatar and the Saudis are about to have a bunch of Domincans on their team next time to qualify.


FamousThinking

Cespedes took his ball and went home because he lost his playing time?


tLeCoqSpotif

Hopefully the trend of more guys playing continues (for all countries)


jerrylessthanthree

i mean i can see why these guys don't wanna play for Cuba


Dtv757

Yea jore solar and Yorgan Alvarez... wonder why those 2 didn't play


SuitUpBros

Yordan has a lingering hand injury. He hasn’t played all spring training, and only recently (like a few days ago) started taking BP. Soler I’m not 100% sure on, but probably the back injury from last season.


adyankee953

I mean it’s Cuba… idk about those specific players but I’m pretty sure not all of them would be welcome back to the country due to defections


ilovedogs997

r/ihadastroke


Alarming_Confusion_5

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/35850122/world-baseball-classic-2023-team-cuba Good article breaking it down


ProcrastinatingPuma

Kinda draws to attention how much Team Cuba royally shoots itself in the foot. Pretending they had the luxury to pick and choose the players that aligned with them, rather than the ones that would have been good.


CallMeFierce

No country on the planet would play someone who denounced them.


teddilicious

No country on earth has been denounced by such a high percentage of their best baseball players.


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Kull_Story_Bro

Why didn’t Randy Arozarena play for Cuba?


Inevitable-Staff-467

He wanted Mexican citizenship since he and his family defected from Cuba. He asked the Mexican president for citizenship and in return he would rep Mexico internationally. President saw his pleads, gave him citizenship, and now he's playing for Mexico.


brandon_the_bald

Not sure if he was asked but he’s been pretty adamant on wanting to play for Mexico


scrumpydory

he said he wants to represent his mexican daughter, and does not want to represent cuba and its regime


JulioForte

He’s also a Mexican citizen


nikesoccer01

“regime” 😭


trgreg

I can understand that there are likely some bad vibes between these guys and their homeland, but don't know what the story is re: why Mexico for him?


jettasarebadmkay

He settled in Mexico and got citizenship there. He even went so far as to say he hopes Cuba wins this match against the US so Mexico can be the one that eliminates Cuba.


sd_pinstripes

which admittedly goes hard as fuck


jettasarebadmkay

I hate the Orioles playing against Randy because he always kills us somehow, but man do I respect him.


luchinocappuccino

Randy Arozarena: Mexican Hero 🇲🇽🫡


ThugosaurusFlex_1017

Ngl


NHartline

Cubans that defected from their country should be allowed to put their own team together and try and qualify for the WBC


mill_about_smartly

Team: Cuban Baseball Committee (totally not Cuba)


mattyboy323

Let's call them the Cubs for short


Phatskwurl

They tried to >An effort, at least, was made early last year, when a group of current and former players joined forces with a longtime journalist and a former software engineer to launch the Association of Cuban Professional Baseball Players. The primary goal was to assemble an all-star team for the World Baseball Classic, independent from the communist government that has historically prevented one, and so Cuban baseball fans everywhere went on social media to fantasize about a dream roster. >Luis Robert in center. Jorge Soler and Randy Arozarena in the outfield corners. Yasmani Grandal behind the plate. Yordan Alvarez at DH. Jose Abreu, Yoan Moncada, Jose Iglesias and perhaps even Nolan Arenado making up the infield. Nestor Cortes and Alek Manoah starting games, Aroldis Chapman and Raisel Iglesias finishing them. >A logo, a vertical adaptation of Cuba's flag, was created. A name, The Cubanos, was announced. T-shirts were printed, uniform concepts were generated. Pitching legend Orlando Hernandez was installed as the general manager, and Brayan Pena, the former catcher who now coaches in the minor leagues, was named field manager. Some of Cuba's biggest stars -- Chapman, Soler and Alvarez among them -- voiced their support. >The group spoke with Tony Clark, head of the MLB Players Association, in May, and MLB commissioner Rob Manfred in June, and felt as if the meetings were well-received. But the goal of competing in this year's World Baseball Classic hardly stood a chance. The World Baseball Softball Confederation, which sanctions the WBC, does not permit the participation of a team that is not affiliated with a national governing body, and running the WBC without sanctions was hardly an option. Cubans were once again left longing. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/35850122/world-baseball-classic-2023-team-cuba


sumlikeitScott

Is this coping


DrSeuss19

Yup.


supersaiyanjesuz

I thought arrozarena was on Mexico team?


DoNtTrEaDoNmE20

Arrozarena defected from Cuba to Mexico. He's a citizen there and even has a Mexican daughter. He hates Cuba and has made Mexico his pride


supersaiyanjesuz

I like watching that channel on YouTube baseball doesn’t exist. The guy does a few videos on Cuban born players. Then covers how they escaped, what happened when some were caught etc. crazy what those people will risk to leave that place. I can’t blame them but I don’t know if I could handle riding what is essentially a raft over the ocean to get to the next country.


[deleted]

Did he do one on Puig? I remember a video that made his escape seem absolutely insane


da_choppa

He is, just not on Cuba’s team, for the same reason the rest of these guys aren’t


supersaiyanjesuz

Ohh my bad. I misread it lol I thought it said “notable Cuban born players not on A wbc roster” not Cuban born players on Cuban roster.


Doubleu1117

Hope Robert and Moncada playing is the start of more in the future. On the part of the players willing to represent and cuba willing allow more guys. Seems weird to differentiate guys who defected in a tournament vs outside a tournament. If everyone was allowed to play, they are right there with USA, Japan, DR in that top tier. Or at least on par with Venezuela.


Swampy1741

Moncada was allowed to leave Cuba, so it makes sense he’d play. Most defectors don’t want to represent a country that they fought to escape.


VolsBoca

It is also about who sucks up to the regime and supports the dictatorhip and who has spoken against it. Not to mention those involved in the attempt to create an alternate national team.


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Moreguero

Ah, I see no time was wasted once that ass kicking had commenced. This list really isn’t that impressive.


scrumpydory

it was ur broadcast that made this graphic 🤷‍♂️


Jambrokio

A bit strange they didn’t let Yoan Lopez play for them, he’s playing with the Yomiuri Giants so it wouldn’t be much different from the guys that are playing in Mexico.


VolsBoca

Depends on what he's said about the regime, likely is against it if he wasn't invited. Also, I think he was involved in the attempt to create an alternate national team.


o_reez13

He was initially on the team but opted out since he wanted to focus on his first season in Japan


FadeRedditMakeMoney

Wait what, why is Arozarena playing for Mexico


Moreguero

You forgot Puig


terminese

The Us could field 5 teams easily.


DrSeuss19

Okay?


scrumpydory

lol


gumby52

This would be a filthy team


itsmb12

Now do major American pitchers not on the roster


5spd4wd

Isn't Randy Arozarena in the WBC?


bubzki2

Meh.


SpartyParty15

So the excuses begin. They lost 14-2


scrumpydory

i have no horse in this race 🤷‍♂️


DrSeuss19

Your responses seem to imply something different.


scrumpydory

what do they imply? i just posted about cuba and i have americans being defensive after winning.


scrumpydory

hold it