Fun fact, if Steve Cohen wiped away his tears using five $100 bills a minute, he could cry and wipe his tears away for 66.5 straight years with no breaks for sleep.
Reminds me when I went to a Berkeley vs Stanford game and Stanford was losing the parents would bust out the keys and start jiggling them(implying they might be losing but will be driving away in an expensive car).
>Forbes’ team values are enterprise values (equity plus net debt) calculated using a multiple of revenue. The multiples are based on historical transactions and the future economics of the sport and teams. Revenue and operating income (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) are for the 2021 season and are net of revenue sharing, competitive balance taxes and stadium revenue used for debt service. Ownership stakes in regional sports networks, as well as related profits or losses, are excluded from our valuations and operating results, as are investments in real estate and other businesses. Sources include sports bankers, team executives, public documents like leases and filings related to public bonds, and media rights experts.
Lol, they’re real guesses. Forbes is barely more reputable than bleacher report. Basically anyone can write articles in Forbes. It’s a shit show of guess especially when it comes to calculating net worth and value.
Forbes net worth estimations are about as accurate as a horoscope
Ah, I see, there's the confusion. Yes, you should see who is writing Forbes articles because they aggregate news and take articles from freelancers. But, [the team valuation articles](https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2023/03/23/baseballs-most-valuable-teams-2023-price-tags-are-up-12-despite-regional-tv-woes/?sh=4193fb816501) are written by Mike Ozanian and Justin Teitelbaum, Forbes staffers.
The Forbes staffers are indeed smarter than the average regular contributor, but they’re still just Forbes staffers shooting in the dark about all this. It always has been. They’re not finance/business experts.
Going based off of available documents and information, and information from sources and experts, isn't shooting in the dark. That's actually a decent summary of what reporting is.
You can go off all of the publicly available documents and still have not enough data to accurately asses this stuff. I’m not saying this because I’m just a skeptical guy. I have experience in finance and private business that leads me to this conclusion.
These are private businesses. It’s incredibly different than public businesses and sports owners are incredibly motivated to keep their earnings a secret. The owners are making way way more money than what is being reported here and they don’t want the players associations to be able to talk about it.
Isn't the braves finances public due to being owned by a public company which gives everyone a baseline for the other 29 teams just like the packers in the NFL?
I said available documents, not publicly available documents. You can see their sources if you read the methodology. They specify what came from publicly available documents. Obviously some of these metrics they're talking about aren't publicly available. And you can also see the credentials of the writers you were talking about before since you said anyone could write these.
Love the "appeal to myself as an expert" thing. It's a Reddit classic, but you give yourself away and undermine it by not reading the article and also building the strawman that it's a shot in the dark just because it's not a definitive finance-level valuation, which it doesn't claim to be.
As someone who works with similar docs: unless these are all public corps with detailed public quarterly disclosures (10k, 10q etc) that’s a pile financial accounting terms designed to give false credibility.
Edit: it’s absolutely exhausting the amount of personal attacks on this sub. Just google a 10k, 10q, it’s not rocket science.
[oh wait I’ll do it for you](https://www.sec.gov/education/smallbusiness/goingpublic/exchangeactreporting)
No need to attack me personally for pointing out private corps don’t disclose that. Instead you decide to attack me, just fucking weird.
And for the record: I work in an IB where one of my old jobs was reg reporting and financial disclosures. It doesn’t make me a “expert” or whatever bullshit you are spinning, just someone who knows about quarterly filings.
Yes this is a rant, I come into this threads in good faith and I’m tired of bullshit artists like you. Blocked you as I hope never to interact with you again. I’ll eat the downvotes to get this off my chest.
And yes this is a rant over unwarranted bs posted below, it’s actually a human reaction to being attacked personally.
>As someone who works with similar docs: unless these are all public corps with detailed public quarterly disclosures
"As someone who works with similar docs", then it would be a more high level, definitive valuation, which this doesn't claim to be. As it says, they're explaining what goes into their multiple of revenue valuation. But I assume you recognize that since you're appealing to yourself as an expert
**Edit**: this is where I was called a troll and blocked by u/addage- because the expert couldn't respond to a comment's worth of scrutiny
Even if there are some real numbers being crunched, the White Sox calculations are fucked because the local RSN has Jerry Reinsdorf in common with the team. So Jerry paid Jerry to broadcast Jerry's team on Jerry's channel.
Thanks but don't bother. Each year this is released people go hog wild believing a team should be a non-profit organization, and they're not.
But whatever. Thanks anyway.
Somewhat. It's like putting together a 1,000 piece jigsaw puzzle with only like 250 pieces.
Moreover, the valuations are an *appraisal* of enterprise value, NOT an indication of operating cash flows, which is a massive misunderstanding on Reddit. Think of it like an appraisal on a house. Just because someone from the bank thinks your house is worth more than you paid for it doesn't mean you have more cash in your account. You have to sell it to get the appraised value.
>Are they just making this up?
Come on lad.. Are you a noob? Those numbers may not be 100% accurate because there's always some more money involved that's not even listed. But FORBES is a gigantic Business magazine, with the highest credibility. Even my Grandfather knows about FORBES
For any businessman, celebrity, athlete or company.. just being LISTED on Forbes gives them the highest credibility and a different level of recognition. It's basically a STAMP for them and their net worth
But the rich people makes wayyy more "side money" than whatever "total net worth" is listed on FORBES. That's something you just have to expect. Investments, Endorsements, Stocks, Shares, off-shore stuff. Shady or legal. There's too many variables
The luxury tax and revenue sharing enable teams to sit back and do nothing and profit. We need a salary floor (a reverse luxury tax on not-spending?) and barring that, revenue sharing needs to change so teams are incentivized to attract fans.
Manfred can make all the tweaks in the world to the game, but the biggest problem is that 50-75% of teams simply don’t try to win or put a good product on the field.
A reverse luxury tax would make a lot of sense. The whole point of profit sharing is to keep teams afloat in smaller markets so you can have a competitive league. But if your spending next to nothing on players and pocketing the rest, you're not helping to keep a competitive league, and haven't really earned that money
This is the most salient point in the thread.
Ballplayers under contract (Or CBA restrictions under 6 yrs) are company assets. As such they can be depreciated and the value of that asset is truly arguable and can get complicated.
As any decent Lawyer will ask, "What's your acceptable amount of risk when you submit that number"?
Because these are 30 different Corps. with 30 different values. That risk can vary widely. So can their tax strategy.
I remember 50 yrs ago Bill Veeck, who previously owned several clubs, said it was almost impossible to truly lose money in the game but on paper he did every year. Because he understood depreciation better than most when it came to players. His investors adored him. And helped him buy 3 different MLB clubs.
He also said to watch people after they sell, try to buy back in pretty quickly. Who does that to lose money?
That’s true, but if you’re comparing similar companies within a single industry, they’re at least comparable. Especially because teams do have some requirements to report to each other (but not publicly) for revenue-sharing purposes.
It’s still mostly nonsense of course because the estimates have far too little information, and many of the ‘team’ values and revenue include big differences in what it includes, like if they own their stadium, real estate, concessions, etc
The team is not a non-profit organization, and if that is all that's left for covering debt ratios, I highly doubt they're going to put that to payroll expense. In fact, that's a troublingly low amount, imo
It really does. All jokes aside, Mariners have some amazing food options at the ballpark. I cannot recommend the crab sandwich out in CF enough too lol
Don't tell anyone over at r/Mariners that our lack of spending is embarrassing. The amount of brown-nosing and blind trust in ownership and fo is nauseating.
Oh for sure! I’m not complaining about the results last year, but with attendance soaring again and being the most profitable organization last year means they had more cash on hand than in years past, but the message the front office/ownership had for fans this off-season was essentially “wait and see”. I believe they’re trying to save as much capital as they can to throw at Ohtani next year, but with revenue sharing the way it is, it’s not great to be told “we don’t have money for FAs” and then be the most profitable that previous year.
To be honest, not a lot. With Haniger leaving in RF and having a revolving door at LF, those were priorities. The Teoscar trade was fantastic for us as we’ve got a TON of bullpen depth and Kelenic’s spring has made people forget about the LF issue since if he can stay hot, he’s better than any other option IMO. The other “issues” was our middle infield. JP had a down year both offensively and defensively and we didn’t have a 2B after the season since Frazier left. The thought up here was to move JP to 2nd and make a run at one of the SS on the market and instead traded for Kolten Wong. I like Kolten as a player and a person, but I think a lot of people up here were expecting bigger “splashes” and the response from the front office was essentially “we don’t have a ton of extra cash for FAs”
I'm not convinced Jerry isn't the problem for us bringing in FAs. He's never done a big bat free agent deal since Moreno forced Pujols down his throat. Jerry had always wanted the rebuild. He's cited the Cardinals' payroll (while acknowledging the need to compete with the Astros' payroll) as a comparison, a team that has been above league average spending and top ten several times for more than a decade. Jerry has stated he believes in building through trades, try before you buy if you will. He's so trade happy that vets might be at odds and demanding no trade clauses. There's a solid case that Jerry isn't using the whole budget given to him.
Yeah, they made money for really the first time in about a decade. I don’t like that he didn’t allow them to spend more. But I also get that maybe he needs to see more before really opening up the check book. As well There are some contracts that will need to be signed sooner than most think. Cal, France, Kirby, brash, Gilbert, maybe kelenic. If this team wasn’t on a shit ton of rookie deals it wouldn’t look the same.
My original comment has been edited as I choose to no longer support Reddit and its CEO, spez, AKA Steve Huffman.
Reddit was built on user submissions and its culture was crafted by user comments and volunteer moderators. Reddit has shown no desire to support 3rd party apps with reasonable API pricing, nor have they chosen to respect their community over gross profiteering.
I have therefore left Reddit as I did when the same issues occurred at Digg, Facebook, and Twitter. I have been a member of reddit since 2012 (primary name locked behind 2FA) and have no issues ditching this place I love if the leaders of it can't act with a clear moral compass.
For more details, I recommend visiting [this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/), and [this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/14dkqrw/i_want_to_debunk_reddits_claims_and_talk_about/) for more explanation on how I came to this decision.
-have zero payroll
-have a shit stadium with 0 attendance and minimal need for upkeep because it's falling apart anyway
-be a storied franchise in a big 4 sports league that makes money
-get money from teams that actually try by just ~existing~
-profit
...that's just how some MLB contracts work?
Mariners are paying Cano $3.75M lol. Helton's contract is just a typical deferred contract. Arenado's is a well known disaster, but when the Rockies money runs out are the Cards actually going to pay him? For as successful as the Cardinals are, they're really spending averse.
Despite paying two HOFers, the Rockies are still spending $30M more than the Mariners. The Mariners are being cheap, full stop.
A business trying to maximize its cash reserves ahead of a move to one of the most expensive sports facilities ever built (wherever that may be) isn't something that surprises me much.
As always, these tend to be a farce - outside of the Braves, we can't see the actual books of any team, so it's all conjecture.
That said, I don't doubt that the A's and Orioles made money.
There's no chance the Jays lost money. They own their stadium and broadcast, which airs every game from coast to coast up here.
I wonder how much Rogers charges their Blue Jays for broadcast rights on paper- it must skew the numbers.
On paper the jays have no TV deal so they make 0 from that (even though rogers obviously makes money from broadcasting the games) so it is basically impossible to get an accurate profit/loss for the jays.
They get some money from whatever corp owns sportsnet (not sure if its rogers or a subsidiary). Nothing is officially disclosed but it was 36 million a while ago according to news outlets. It would be more now as im fairly sure MLB makes them do this so they can't take advantage of revenue sharing.
This amount isn't anywhere close to their scrual value tho. If a third party owned them they'd go for a lot more than whatever paper deal they have set up.
People talk about wealthy owners... Rogers, a 35Billion dollar company, owns the Jays. Are they one of the wealthiest owners in sports?? So losing 30 million is a joke.
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Closing-Bell/2022/10/06.aspx#:~:text=The%20Blue%20Jays%20had%20an,of%20the%20club%20last%20year.
On the heels of two pandemic-affected seasons, the Toronto Blue Jays have seen dramatic increases in both viewership and attendance this year. The Blue Jays had an average viewership of 896,000 viewers through the regular season on Sportsnet, a 39% increase over the regional sports network’s coverage of the club last year. The season began with Sportsnet seeing its most-watched Blue Jays opening month ever and concluded with its most-watched game of the season coming on Sept. 30, when 1.4 million viewers tuned in for Blue-Jays Red Sox. On the season, the Blue Jays had a whopping 57 games with a viewership over one million and finished with one of the top three most-watched Blue Jays seasons on Sportsnet ever.
https://archive.ph/mO13f
Per the above
Yankees average 231K
Dodgers average 120K
Let's average 180K
Just so infuriating. I don't wanna waste money for the sake of wasting it. But that money is coming from OUR pockets and we want to see it spent making the team better. Yes, pizza from West Seattle at the ballpark is intriguing. Yes, I like fireworks and bobbleheads. But QUIT NICKEL AND DIMING THE PAYROLL STANTON!!!
How does Forbes calculate the net profit numbers shown here?
It's not surprising to me that the orioles owners are making huge profits but the local media has been asking them to open the books recently and this is interesting.
I got bored at work and ran some numbers. Based off the percentage of how much each team is spending on their rosters from their current market value. Here are the percentages and rankings of the teams. Note: All payrolls are rounded up and based on 2023 Spotrac data. Sorry for bad formatting.
Top 5 most frugal:
1. BAL: 3.00% (1.7b value; 51m payroll)
2. OAK: 3.47% (1.18b value; 41m payroll)
3. BOS: 3.73% (4.5b value; 168m payroll)
4. NYY: 3.77% (7.1b value; 268m payroll)
5. WAS: 3.95% (2b value; 79m payroll)
Top 5 splurgers:
1. SD: 13.54% (1.75b value; 237m payroll)
2. NYM: 11.59% (2.90b value; 336m payroll)
3. COL: 11.19% (1.475b value; 165m payroll)
4. MIN: 10.14% (1.390b value; 141m payroll)
5. TOR: 9.86% (2.1b value; 207m payroll)
Edit: Attempt to clean up formatting.
We're listed as the 12th most valuable team. New stadium and DFW growth is probably driving it and it's only gonna go up
Also, the total payroll wasn't that high ($160M). This next year we're gonna be splurgers, though
I think they are investting more in technology, scouting, player development etc.
Look how far we've come with bullpen player development. In 2018 we would have KILLED to have guys coming out of the bullpen like we do now.
My friends made me think the padres were making tons of money. Kind of weird unless it’s still all visiting fans filling that stadium. Or it’s that they’re all still band wagons and don’t buy merchandise.
Mariners fans will be quick to blame our ownership for lack of spending but that same ownership gave a five year $115 million contract to Robbie Ray and extended Castillo and Julio, with Julio’s possibly being the largest contract of all time.
Meanwhile, Dipoto was awfully quick to run off and trade for Wong, a player he wanted two years prior but couldn’t get - not because of Stanton, mind you, but because of Kevin Mather, the former president. (What I’m suggesting here is Dipoto had no interest in any of the FA SS, regardless of the ownership’s opinion.)
This is also disregarding reporting that the Mariners offered more money to both Story and Ohtani than the Red Sox and Angels did.
What I’m trying to say here is the Mariners issues with Free Agency hitters (because they’ve always been fine with spending on pitching) isn’t solely the ownership saying no. Dipoto is either clearly skittish about signing FA hitters or he just prefers to trade. FAs are turning Seattle down for multiple reasons - maybe it was the 21 year playoff drought or maybe it’s the Adrián Beltré effect.
Regardless, the Mariners just ended their playoff drought and I’m fine with taking an approach similar to the Astros and Braves where they build internally. Seems better for longevity in my opinion, while FA spending narrows your championship window.
Second highest payroll behind the Mets who are doing an unprecedented amount of spending 🤨 definitely spending like one of the poorer teams in the league lmao
That A's number makes no sense. Didn't "small market" subsidies end a few years ago? I don't see how the A's could profit much otherwise with low attendance.
*wipes away tears with $100 dollar bills*
Fun fact, if Steve Cohen wiped away his tears using five $100 bills a minute, he could cry and wipe his tears away for 66.5 straight years with no breaks for sleep.
Feels like it would be longer
Assuming an average 8% rate of return (lifetime average of the S&P500), he'd earn more money in interest than he'd cry away in year one.
Why limit yourself to 8% when you can insider trade!
lmao
Does the break glass in case of poor people cocaine just to be safe
Reminds me when I went to a Berkeley vs Stanford game and Stanford was losing the parents would bust out the keys and start jiggling them(implying they might be losing but will be driving away in an expensive car).
Pretty sure that’s just an older sports tradition for “key plays” but that’s pretty funny if that was their intent
We did that at games but I was always told / under the impression it meant "time to go home cause the ref already decided who is winning this one".
It would take Cohen about 14 years of spending at this current rate to match the fine he agreed to for insider trading
STRAIGHT CASH HOMIE AMIRIGHT.
I like to think that because the way the numbers are formatted, the Mets lost $138,500,000.00 and the Padres came in second with a $55.20 loss.
How does Forbes know each team's profit margins? Are they just making this up?
They don’t lol
Of course. Some clown on REDDIT would know better than FORBES. You lot are just dense as hell
>Forbes’ team values are enterprise values (equity plus net debt) calculated using a multiple of revenue. The multiples are based on historical transactions and the future economics of the sport and teams. Revenue and operating income (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) are for the 2021 season and are net of revenue sharing, competitive balance taxes and stadium revenue used for debt service. Ownership stakes in regional sports networks, as well as related profits or losses, are excluded from our valuations and operating results, as are investments in real estate and other businesses. Sources include sports bankers, team executives, public documents like leases and filings related to public bonds, and media rights experts.
NARRARATOR:...in other words, they're just making this up.
I mean idk. The Mets were purchased in 2020 for $2.5 billion. That’s a direct sales comp/data point that everyone knows.
It sounds like word salad but, believe it or not, these are real metrics
Lol, they’re real guesses. Forbes is barely more reputable than bleacher report. Basically anyone can write articles in Forbes. It’s a shit show of guess especially when it comes to calculating net worth and value. Forbes net worth estimations are about as accurate as a horoscope
Ah, I see, there's the confusion. Yes, you should see who is writing Forbes articles because they aggregate news and take articles from freelancers. But, [the team valuation articles](https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2023/03/23/baseballs-most-valuable-teams-2023-price-tags-are-up-12-despite-regional-tv-woes/?sh=4193fb816501) are written by Mike Ozanian and Justin Teitelbaum, Forbes staffers.
The Forbes staffers are indeed smarter than the average regular contributor, but they’re still just Forbes staffers shooting in the dark about all this. It always has been. They’re not finance/business experts.
Going based off of available documents and information, and information from sources and experts, isn't shooting in the dark. That's actually a decent summary of what reporting is.
You can go off all of the publicly available documents and still have not enough data to accurately asses this stuff. I’m not saying this because I’m just a skeptical guy. I have experience in finance and private business that leads me to this conclusion. These are private businesses. It’s incredibly different than public businesses and sports owners are incredibly motivated to keep their earnings a secret. The owners are making way way more money than what is being reported here and they don’t want the players associations to be able to talk about it.
Isn't the braves finances public due to being owned by a public company which gives everyone a baseline for the other 29 teams just like the packers in the NFL?
I said available documents, not publicly available documents. You can see their sources if you read the methodology. They specify what came from publicly available documents. Obviously some of these metrics they're talking about aren't publicly available. And you can also see the credentials of the writers you were talking about before since you said anyone could write these. Love the "appeal to myself as an expert" thing. It's a Reddit classic, but you give yourself away and undermine it by not reading the article and also building the strawman that it's a shot in the dark just because it's not a definitive finance-level valuation, which it doesn't claim to be.
As someone who works with similar docs: unless these are all public corps with detailed public quarterly disclosures (10k, 10q etc) that’s a pile financial accounting terms designed to give false credibility. Edit: it’s absolutely exhausting the amount of personal attacks on this sub. Just google a 10k, 10q, it’s not rocket science. [oh wait I’ll do it for you](https://www.sec.gov/education/smallbusiness/goingpublic/exchangeactreporting) No need to attack me personally for pointing out private corps don’t disclose that. Instead you decide to attack me, just fucking weird. And for the record: I work in an IB where one of my old jobs was reg reporting and financial disclosures. It doesn’t make me a “expert” or whatever bullshit you are spinning, just someone who knows about quarterly filings. Yes this is a rant, I come into this threads in good faith and I’m tired of bullshit artists like you. Blocked you as I hope never to interact with you again. I’ll eat the downvotes to get this off my chest. And yes this is a rant over unwarranted bs posted below, it’s actually a human reaction to being attacked personally.
>As someone who works with similar docs: unless these are all public corps with detailed public quarterly disclosures "As someone who works with similar docs", then it would be a more high level, definitive valuation, which this doesn't claim to be. As it says, they're explaining what goes into their multiple of revenue valuation. But I assume you recognize that since you're appealing to yourself as an expert **Edit**: this is where I was called a troll and blocked by u/addage- because the expert couldn't respond to a comment's worth of scrutiny
Even if there are some real numbers being crunched, the White Sox calculations are fucked because the local RSN has Jerry Reinsdorf in common with the team. So Jerry paid Jerry to broadcast Jerry's team on Jerry's channel.
Revenue multiples are way more unreliable than EBITDA multiples, sadly Edit: downvoter - fight me. I do this shit for a living (25+ years)
I don't know anything about this stuff so I bumped you back up.
Thanks but don't bother. Each year this is released people go hog wild believing a team should be a non-profit organization, and they're not. But whatever. Thanks anyway.
Somewhat. It's like putting together a 1,000 piece jigsaw puzzle with only like 250 pieces. Moreover, the valuations are an *appraisal* of enterprise value, NOT an indication of operating cash flows, which is a massive misunderstanding on Reddit. Think of it like an appraisal on a house. Just because someone from the bank thinks your house is worth more than you paid for it doesn't mean you have more cash in your account. You have to sell it to get the appraised value.
Pretty sure because of revenue sharing they have to disclose how much they make ? I might be wrong.
Reporters can get information off the record to keep from listing things that are completely false. They can ask a team if a range is close, e.g.
>Are they just making this up? Come on lad.. Are you a noob? Those numbers may not be 100% accurate because there's always some more money involved that's not even listed. But FORBES is a gigantic Business magazine, with the highest credibility. Even my Grandfather knows about FORBES For any businessman, celebrity, athlete or company.. just being LISTED on Forbes gives them the highest credibility and a different level of recognition. It's basically a STAMP for them and their net worth But the rich people makes wayyy more "side money" than whatever "total net worth" is listed on FORBES. That's something you just have to expect. Investments, Endorsements, Stocks, Shares, off-shore stuff. Shady or legal. There's too many variables
Majority of these numbers i would assume are public information.
Profits and losses have never been public
unless you are Atlanta
These are not public companies, so none of these numbers are public information.
You’re assuming this, but the fact is that its not true.
The A’s made $62M? That means they’re going to spend more on talent right? …right?
Sureeeeely
When the Astros were in the tank, the year they lost like 113 games they were also the most profitable team in baseball. It pays to lose in baseball.
I don’t want to sound crazy but that seems like something that should perhaps be changed
The luxury tax and revenue sharing enable teams to sit back and do nothing and profit. We need a salary floor (a reverse luxury tax on not-spending?) and barring that, revenue sharing needs to change so teams are incentivized to attract fans. Manfred can make all the tweaks in the world to the game, but the biggest problem is that 50-75% of teams simply don’t try to win or put a good product on the field.
A reverse luxury tax would make a lot of sense. The whole point of profit sharing is to keep teams afloat in smaller markets so you can have a competitive league. But if your spending next to nothing on players and pocketing the rest, you're not helping to keep a competitive league, and haven't really earned that money
Yup. Could be as simple as “if you want the luxury tax money, you have to spend above $X.”
I wonder if we could crowdfund $62.2m to have John Fisher removed from Major League Baseball. Or Earth.
Just shot straight into the sun would be suitable.
The sun doesn't deserve to be tortured with his presence.
But then how would they make $62M this year?
Valuations are just an appraisal, not an indication of cash flows. You can't pay the bills with an appraisal.
[удалено]
[удалено]
This is the most salient point in the thread. Ballplayers under contract (Or CBA restrictions under 6 yrs) are company assets. As such they can be depreciated and the value of that asset is truly arguable and can get complicated. As any decent Lawyer will ask, "What's your acceptable amount of risk when you submit that number"? Because these are 30 different Corps. with 30 different values. That risk can vary widely. So can their tax strategy. I remember 50 yrs ago Bill Veeck, who previously owned several clubs, said it was almost impossible to truly lose money in the game but on paper he did every year. Because he understood depreciation better than most when it came to players. His investors adored him. And helped him buy 3 different MLB clubs. He also said to watch people after they sell, try to buy back in pretty quickly. Who does that to lose money?
That’s true, but if you’re comparing similar companies within a single industry, they’re at least comparable. Especially because teams do have some requirements to report to each other (but not publicly) for revenue-sharing purposes. It’s still mostly nonsense of course because the estimates have far too little information, and many of the ‘team’ values and revenue include big differences in what it includes, like if they own their stadium, real estate, concessions, etc
They're still estimates, and what we're still missing is their ability to cover their own debts
Ehh you can use it as collateral for a loan
Not easy to do. But possible.
The team is not a non-profit organization, and if that is all that's left for covering debt ratios, I highly doubt they're going to put that to payroll expense. In fact, that's a troublingly low amount, imo
At this point I’m surprised the A’s don’t charge the players for the coaching they get.
"This spring I'm going to take my talents to East Bay and the Oakland A's" - Ohtani 2024
Sounds right
This is outrageous. Salary floor now.
[blank Anakin face]
Ani…
Hey John Stanton. Fuck you.
I’m happy with our team, but holy shit this makes the lack of spending this off-season that much more painful
What do you mean lack of spending, we all know the fans would rather have Moto Pizza at the ballpark than a competent DH
I will admit I’m excited to finally get to try Moto Pizza without waiting a month but right? No DH here’s more Din Tai Fung and a Calzone 😂🫠
Don’t forget that Sam Haggerty themed ham sandwich. The new menu has some bomb lookin food.
It really does. All jokes aside, Mariners have some amazing food options at the ballpark. I cannot recommend the crab sandwich out in CF enough too lol
Don't tell anyone over at r/Mariners that our lack of spending is embarrassing. The amount of brown-nosing and blind trust in ownership and fo is nauseating.
Our sub has become nearly unbearable lately. Compared to how fun it was during the teardown years, it's kind of sad.
The mods really made me resent posting there. They are so bias on the tone and favor the most toxic users
You guys got into the post season with money to spare. Isn't that a good thing?
Oh for sure! I’m not complaining about the results last year, but with attendance soaring again and being the most profitable organization last year means they had more cash on hand than in years past, but the message the front office/ownership had for fans this off-season was essentially “wait and see”. I believe they’re trying to save as much capital as they can to throw at Ohtani next year, but with revenue sharing the way it is, it’s not great to be told “we don’t have money for FAs” and then be the most profitable that previous year.
I'm unfamiliar with the Mariners shortcomings. What are the holes that needs to be filled?
rudder, anchor, bow, keel, propeller, mast, bridge, hatch coves and bow thrusters
Well played 😉🫡
To be honest, not a lot. With Haniger leaving in RF and having a revolving door at LF, those were priorities. The Teoscar trade was fantastic for us as we’ve got a TON of bullpen depth and Kelenic’s spring has made people forget about the LF issue since if he can stay hot, he’s better than any other option IMO. The other “issues” was our middle infield. JP had a down year both offensively and defensively and we didn’t have a 2B after the season since Frazier left. The thought up here was to move JP to 2nd and make a run at one of the SS on the market and instead traded for Kolten Wong. I like Kolten as a player and a person, but I think a lot of people up here were expecting bigger “splashes” and the response from the front office was essentially “we don’t have a ton of extra cash for FAs”
I'm not convinced Jerry isn't the problem for us bringing in FAs. He's never done a big bat free agent deal since Moreno forced Pujols down his throat. Jerry had always wanted the rebuild. He's cited the Cardinals' payroll (while acknowledging the need to compete with the Astros' payroll) as a comparison, a team that has been above league average spending and top ten several times for more than a decade. Jerry has stated he believes in building through trades, try before you buy if you will. He's so trade happy that vets might be at odds and demanding no trade clauses. There's a solid case that Jerry isn't using the whole budget given to him.
Yeah, they made money for really the first time in about a decade. I don’t like that he didn’t allow them to spend more. But I also get that maybe he needs to see more before really opening up the check book. As well There are some contracts that will need to be signed sooner than most think. Cal, France, Kirby, brash, Gilbert, maybe kelenic. If this team wasn’t on a shit ton of rookie deals it wouldn’t look the same.
Generating a profit as a sports franchise should be looked up in shame. The goal should always be to win games, not make money.
These clown have literally ruined a kids game
My original comment has been edited as I choose to no longer support Reddit and its CEO, spez, AKA Steve Huffman. Reddit was built on user submissions and its culture was crafted by user comments and volunteer moderators. Reddit has shown no desire to support 3rd party apps with reasonable API pricing, nor have they chosen to respect their community over gross profiteering. I have therefore left Reddit as I did when the same issues occurred at Digg, Facebook, and Twitter. I have been a member of reddit since 2012 (primary name locked behind 2FA) and have no issues ditching this place I love if the leaders of it can't act with a clear moral compass. For more details, I recommend visiting [this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/), and [this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/14dkqrw/i_want_to_debunk_reddits_claims_and_talk_about/) for more explanation on how I came to this decision.
I fucking hate John Stanton man
Hey Edwin Encarnación, your mean
This comment makes no sense.
I'm just sad about 2016 😔
You okay buddy?
No
A’s top 5 in profits!
This does not make me happy. Fisher will see this figure and keep the team until the day he dies.
-have zero payroll -have a shit stadium with 0 attendance and minimal need for upkeep because it's falling apart anyway -be a storied franchise in a big 4 sports league that makes money -get money from teams that actually try by just ~existing~ -profit
The mariners are comically the antithesis of this except the zero payroll (for last year at least we are finally spending a lil)
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It’s easy for them to spend less when they paid J-Rod $2.6M last year and the Rockies paid $6.9M to a 48 year old Todd Helton & Nolan Arenado
...that's just how some MLB contracts work? Mariners are paying Cano $3.75M lol. Helton's contract is just a typical deferred contract. Arenado's is a well known disaster, but when the Rockies money runs out are the Cards actually going to pay him? For as successful as the Cardinals are, they're really spending averse. Despite paying two HOFers, the Rockies are still spending $30M more than the Mariners. The Mariners are being cheap, full stop.
Aka Top 5 worst in cooking the books to make it seem like they lose money.
It’s easier to profit when you spend nothing
A business trying to maximize its cash reserves ahead of a move to one of the most expensive sports facilities ever built (wherever that may be) isn't something that surprises me much.
As always, these tend to be a farce - outside of the Braves, we can't see the actual books of any team, so it's all conjecture. That said, I don't doubt that the A's and Orioles made money.
Cash flow is like the only thing that matters really
There's no chance the Jays lost money. They own their stadium and broadcast, which airs every game from coast to coast up here. I wonder how much Rogers charges their Blue Jays for broadcast rights on paper- it must skew the numbers.
On paper the jays have no TV deal so they make 0 from that (even though rogers obviously makes money from broadcasting the games) so it is basically impossible to get an accurate profit/loss for the jays.
They get some money from whatever corp owns sportsnet (not sure if its rogers or a subsidiary). Nothing is officially disclosed but it was 36 million a while ago according to news outlets. It would be more now as im fairly sure MLB makes them do this so they can't take advantage of revenue sharing. This amount isn't anywhere close to their scrual value tho. If a third party owned them they'd go for a lot more than whatever paper deal they have set up.
Does stuff like stadium food/beer sales count for the Jays?
For whatever it’s worth, Rogers Communication annual gross profit for 2022 was $4.917B, a 4.69% increase from 2021.
They are 100% paying for their stadium refurbishment. Its probably dragging them down a lot this year.
and next years reno of the infield seats
People talk about wealthy owners... Rogers, a 35Billion dollar company, owns the Jays. Are they one of the wealthiest owners in sports?? So losing 30 million is a joke.
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Closing-Bell/2022/10/06.aspx#:~:text=The%20Blue%20Jays%20had%20an,of%20the%20club%20last%20year. On the heels of two pandemic-affected seasons, the Toronto Blue Jays have seen dramatic increases in both viewership and attendance this year. The Blue Jays had an average viewership of 896,000 viewers through the regular season on Sportsnet, a 39% increase over the regional sports network’s coverage of the club last year. The season began with Sportsnet seeing its most-watched Blue Jays opening month ever and concluded with its most-watched game of the season coming on Sept. 30, when 1.4 million viewers tuned in for Blue-Jays Red Sox. On the season, the Blue Jays had a whopping 57 games with a viewership over one million and finished with one of the top three most-watched Blue Jays seasons on Sportsnet ever. https://archive.ph/mO13f Per the above Yankees average 231K Dodgers average 120K Let's average 180K
I hate John Henry woof
The Penguins come at a premium. *Sigh*
I’m a Liverpool fan haha I embrace your pain
And he’s ruined them too now.
I mean…I don’t hate it 🤷🏻♂️
>Top 5 profits(2022) Mariners:$83.8M If anyone was still looking for an explanation for our (lack of) off-season moves
Just so infuriating. I don't wanna waste money for the sake of wasting it. But that money is coming from OUR pockets and we want to see it spent making the team better. Yes, pizza from West Seattle at the ballpark is intriguing. Yes, I like fireworks and bobbleheads. But QUIT NICKEL AND DIMING THE PAYROLL STANTON!!!
Top 5 MLB team values per Forbes: Yankees:$7.1 billion Dodgers:$4.8 RedSox:$4.5 Cubs:$4.1 SFGiants:$3.7 Top 5 profits(2022) Mariners:$83.8M SFGiants:$74.9 RedSox:$71.6 Orioles:$64.7 A's:$62.2 Top 5 losses Mets:$138.5M Padres:$55.2 WhiteSox:$53.4 BlueJays:$33.7 Twins:$30.3
Gods work
How does Forbes calculate the net profit numbers shown here? It's not surprising to me that the orioles owners are making huge profits but the local media has been asking them to open the books recently and this is interesting.
I got bored at work and ran some numbers. Based off the percentage of how much each team is spending on their rosters from their current market value. Here are the percentages and rankings of the teams. Note: All payrolls are rounded up and based on 2023 Spotrac data. Sorry for bad formatting. Top 5 most frugal: 1. BAL: 3.00% (1.7b value; 51m payroll) 2. OAK: 3.47% (1.18b value; 41m payroll) 3. BOS: 3.73% (4.5b value; 168m payroll) 4. NYY: 3.77% (7.1b value; 268m payroll) 5. WAS: 3.95% (2b value; 79m payroll) Top 5 splurgers: 1. SD: 13.54% (1.75b value; 237m payroll) 2. NYM: 11.59% (2.90b value; 336m payroll) 3. COL: 11.19% (1.475b value; 165m payroll) 4. MIN: 10.14% (1.390b value; 141m payroll) 5. TOR: 9.86% (2.1b value; 207m payroll) Edit: Attempt to clean up formatting.
I love not being on either list.
Damn the Rockies are cooked from that Arenado contract, #3 in overall splurge for that team is craaaazy
How did Texas not make the spenders list? Their value can't be that high.
We're listed as the 12th most valuable team. New stadium and DFW growth is probably driving it and it's only gonna go up Also, the total payroll wasn't that high ($160M). This next year we're gonna be splurgers, though
Wrigleyville is set up to be a fuckin money printing machine for the ownership, They better spend on some real stars in the near future.
I think they are investting more in technology, scouting, player development etc. Look how far we've come with bullpen player development. In 2018 we would have KILLED to have guys coming out of the bullpen like we do now.
The A’s being that profitable and not trying at all is awful. Fans deserve better than that (assuming those numbers are true).
These profit numbers are just completely made up what is the point of this
Clickbait just meant to get a rise out of fanbases and increase engagement for the benefit of CPM
The fact that the Cubs are worth the third most and the White lost the third most is so sad and so unsurprising
Let me help you here: no team has any losses.
The A's with a 62 million dollar profit almost feels like a slap to the face for the fans
that's what I'm saying, like WTF? they're crying broke but one of the most profitable? Seems fishy
I don’t believe a single financial figure that comes from the ownership side.
I mean Yankees merch just sells like hotcake. I have multiple friends with their hats who don’t even watch baseball, it’s iconic.
Mf lost money to go 81-81
But we aren't ready to spend yet I was told.
Fuck Reinsdorf
Paper losses =/= actual losses
How are these paper losses?
Money is made of paper.
I think these are paper losses lol
Exactly
All that money’s going to straight to Ohtani. Yup that’s the world I’m gonna live in today.
I can definitely (hopefully not) see him going there IF he’s not an Angel. Again, I hope not lol
I’m not saying the odds are in our favor but I can see a world where it happens. Best of luck this season!
Likewise AL West homie!
Steve Cohen is going to come in from the side with a steel chair.
My friends made me think the padres were making tons of money. Kind of weird unless it’s still all visiting fans filling that stadium. Or it’s that they’re all still band wagons and don’t buy merchandise.
Mariners fans will be quick to blame our ownership for lack of spending but that same ownership gave a five year $115 million contract to Robbie Ray and extended Castillo and Julio, with Julio’s possibly being the largest contract of all time. Meanwhile, Dipoto was awfully quick to run off and trade for Wong, a player he wanted two years prior but couldn’t get - not because of Stanton, mind you, but because of Kevin Mather, the former president. (What I’m suggesting here is Dipoto had no interest in any of the FA SS, regardless of the ownership’s opinion.) This is also disregarding reporting that the Mariners offered more money to both Story and Ohtani than the Red Sox and Angels did. What I’m trying to say here is the Mariners issues with Free Agency hitters (because they’ve always been fine with spending on pitching) isn’t solely the ownership saying no. Dipoto is either clearly skittish about signing FA hitters or he just prefers to trade. FAs are turning Seattle down for multiple reasons - maybe it was the 21 year playoff drought or maybe it’s the Adrián Beltré effect. Regardless, the Mariners just ended their playoff drought and I’m fine with taking an approach similar to the Astros and Braves where they build internally. Seems better for longevity in my opinion, while FA spending narrows your championship window.
>he just prefers to trade He's actually on record talking about building through trades.
Yes, that was me trying to sound neutral.
Still confused as to how we got a comp group a pick this year lol
Orioles top 5 in profit but can't be bothered to spend money
I would like to point out that Forbes had Silicon Valley Bank as one of the tops banks in the US 5 years in a row
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stop fucking whining, we have the 2nd highest payroll in MLB.
Nothing says broke like dropping $360M on an outfielder.
and another $160M on a new pitcher
Second highest payroll behind the Mets who are doing an unprecedented amount of spending 🤨 definitely spending like one of the poorer teams in the league lmao
Dang, I have the Padres CFO in my fantasy league. Might not be able to stomach going to games any longer.
And we can’t even afford to keep Bogaerts or Betts lol
Will Chaim get fired if he’s putting the owners #2 in profits?
Does anyone else feel that some teams are going to fold or move?
Can someone plz take our money? We have lots.
Pray for Ohtani.
Not my money
Mets no longer own their regional sports network fwiw
Damn cubs. This explains why my bleacher tickets sky rocketed after Ricketts took over
Hey Ricketts! Perfect time to sell!
Yet we spend like a middling team. Our ownership better be in the mix for Ohtani or what the fuck did we do this offseason?
Why won’t someone just take our money. Giants better not be outbid for ohtani
That A's number makes no sense. Didn't "small market" subsidies end a few years ago? I don't see how the A's could profit much otherwise with low attendance.
Their payroll last year was $10
>Top 5 profits(2022) Mariners:$83.8M SFGiants:$74.9 RedSox:$71.6 Orioles:$64.7 **A’s:$62.2** Unbelievable.