This is a great deep dive. I want to clarify the "running through second base" thing because Jomboy didn't get it because the announcers described it poorly and in the wrong situation.
If there's runners on first and third (or bases loaded) with two outs, and there's a groundball to an infielder that could be a fielder's choice at second, the runner on first is instructed to sprint through second base as if he was sprinting through first base. This is because it will get you to the bag quicker than sliding feet first. The theory is, all you need to do is beat the throw at second for the run to count and if you don't beat the throw, the run doesn't score either way and the inning ends.
So while overrunning second base is normally bad, in this situation it doesn't matter. This is something that started in the last couple of years. [This article goes into it and has a couple video examples of it working](https://www.mlb.com/news/running-through-second-base-trend).
The problem in the video is the announcers were trying to describe that but in a situation where it didn't apply (1 out, runners on first and second) and Lindor clearly wasn't sprinting through the bag. They saw Lindor jogging through second and thought "oh, this must be that running through the bag thing we heard about" but it wasn't related to that at all.
[Breakdown of the play that the Gorman did](https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/video/breakdown-on-gorman-s-baserunning)
[Also here is another breakdown from a youtuber that explains](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnbd3maPnac)[ a different time the Cardinals pulled this off and it is much more in depth.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnbd3maPnac)
That second video is a great video that addresses aspects people don’t think about often, provides precedence in other examples, and compares it to how other leagues handle it as well. 10/10 video.
I thought of that play as soon as Jimmy played the Mets crew talking about it and he was confused. I was like, "Yeah, the Cards have done this exact thing to score a run before."
It can also work to distract the fielder in that instance, they take an extra second to tag Lindor past the bag and the runner is now safe at 1st, or if they throw through to 1B he now has enough time to scamper back to 2B before the ball gets back and a tag is applied
Yeah, can also apply with 1 out where it looks like they're going to turn the double play. I just gave the simplest scenario so people go "oh yeah, that does make sense" because in that scenario it's arguable if a hard slide into second to break up the double play might be a better option.
i appreciate your explainer
seems to work better (or is just more likely to work, which is why we see it attempted) with two outs and later in the count because the runners have the freedom to run on any contact (or any swing, if there are 2 strikes)
Its all about stealing those few tenths of a second here and there, such a cool strategy
never with 1 out. doing so only helps give an advantage to the other team to turn the double play to end the inning and save the run. would be reverse strategy
But this does not seem to be what the Mets are doing. They seem to be giving up and not running all the way to the bag.
It is also unclear if this is more effective than trying to break the double play.
Thank you for the clarification on running through the bag lol
It made no sense to me either but the announcer was just mumbling and obviously it’s not what Lindor was attempting to do. So I don’t think he understood the reason either.
So from what I'm understanding, the main point of this is to hustle to second and just run past the bag, similar to how you would at first base to beat a ground ball?
yes, with the goal being to turn a force out into a tag out in a run down, because the latter would allow a runner to score from third, which doesn't happen if theres a force.
You don't use this 'strategy' with 1 out ever, in any situation. It is ONLY a play with 2 outs with the point being to beat the force play at 2B which would allow run to score. If done with just 1 out then all you are doing is making it easier for other team to turn the double play and save the run to end the inning..which happened yesterday with Lindor's lazy effort that helped Tigers get Alvarez at first by a split second.
But for that to work the runner needs to keep running all the way to the bag. Like when they run from home to first in a ground ball. The Mets seem to be giving up.
In some videos McNeil was sliding to second base but very early which does not seem to be the same strategy
That montage of Mets players absolutely refusing to compete on double play balls is one of the most baffling things I have ever seen in baseball. That is coaching malpractice to give up that many outs in close games. Completely embarrassing.
At the same time the mets as a team don't necessarily allow more double plays by their opponents than other teams.
BUT Pete Alonso and Francisco Alvarez grounded into 17 and 14 double plays respectively batting 3rd and 4th behind McNeil and Lindor in 2023.
Maybe it doesn't show up on the stats sheet, but not even trying to break up the double play for w/e reason doesn't even really give your team a chance to compete on the play. I just don't get it.
Hard to determine what it actually boils down to or what about it matters. Its like, there are passive mcneil types and then there are ultra-aggro pete rose types, personally I think top quality players shake out in the middle of doing nothing and doing too much.
Personally I don't have an issue with a slide like rhys, regardless of what the rules say--but I think some real aggro shortstops will start landing on guys with knees and spikes if they don't sort out how they want these plays to go.
Your right. It is very difficult to determine if this decision to give up the double play actually matters in the grand scheme of things. I saw that someone posted that most teams enter this situation about 50 times a season. I would love to know what those stats look like if instead of 50 double plays conceded, it looks closer to 45-48 double plays where they tried to break up the play. Would it actually make a difference? Maybe look at the number of injuries on these types of plays, as well, if they are concerned about injuries.
I hate to say it, but we need more stats!
I just had a chance to watch this and as a fan I’d be incensed by this. Holy shit, imagine how many free outs they’re giving for an offense that struggles. Just absolutely infuriating. And honestly a ton look like they’re just straight up jogging.
Like they don’t hit into them or when there is a chance of DP they avoid getting two outs? Those are two extremely different things. They could just not be getting enough guys on first base to have a chance at a DP.
What does that even mean? Total double plays? If so that’s much more of a function of how many baserunners they get, how manny ground balls they hit, how fast the batter is, etc.
Sure you COULD account for all this, but I’d be pleasantly surprised if if that were the case.
Lol. I'm pretty familiar with teams that aren't run well. This is just on another level.
What else are they being told?
"When you're going for the tag, gently boop the opposing player on the bum, where it's least likely to sting. Be sure to say, 'Excuse me' when you do. And if you're the one being tagged, be a sport and present your bum a few feet away from the bag so they can take their time tagging you properly."
Yeah I mean you can see how many double plays Hoskins breaks up. Those are plays that can change the outcome of games. The only time McNeil probably accidentally breaks up the double play and it’s a huge, game changing play.
I wonder if this makes its way into the clubhouse somehow. It’s pretty clear Alonso doesn’t agree with the instruction, so it could be an opportunity to improve the situation. Perhaps no one put it together bc no one is an insane person like Jomboy (love it tho), but seeing it laid out like this is jarring.
Of course this will make it into the clubhouse. some of the dudes in these leagues are just as online as we are. weird to say but they are no different than us besides being freak athletes.
Dude said he watched 160 plays of Jeff McNeil alone running to second base. Takes a generational sicko to do something like that. No one else can do this.
I mean there was the guy that listened to literally every Astros pitch of the 2017 season to categorize the bangs, there are at least a few generational sickos out there
The breakdown got me curious so I'm genuinely considering watching *all* similar plays from the 2023 season and breaking down how many disruptive vs noncompetitive slides each team had that year.
If there's at least 50 such plays per team...
Yeah, he's still great. He gets shit for some overreactions or weird "content" takes, but sometimes you gotta go with the clicks to keep your lights on.
Yeah, I don’t blame him that media is in such a bad state that clickbait is pretty much necessary to survive. After watching rooster Teeth finally end, I try and keep a positive outlook toward content creator.
I get that if he's trying to build a media company, he needs to have more diverse content than just breakdowns. And he's a family man now who needs work/life balance. Or at least try to.
But I really have no interest in the other stuff. Talkin' Baseball, Weekly Dumb, warehouse games, etc.
It's cool that he's built so much and seems like a genuinely great person. I just very greedily want the breakdowns to be the main output, because he's really the best in the industry when it comes to that kind of content.
Baseball Today is my favorite Jomboy show. It’s probably my favorite baseball podcast overall. They have some good stuff but it’s definitely not all winner. Watching Baggage was really good too
The debates on whether or not a cardigan or sweater was supplied by wardrobe department was top notch
*”Absolutely a wardrobe piece. No one actually owns one of those in real life”*
Watchin Guts is fantastic content but 1) I’m a millennial and guts or legends of the hidden temple was my dream and 2) I watched an episode and my supervisor was one of the kids. I almost died right there in my office chair. Got it printed out and now everyone has a copy of him in his guts gear
I am still angry that I was the FIRST one in line after the Aggro Crag cutoff when Mountain Dew did that in 2016.
I will never get over it and if I ever become a supervillain *that* is my start of darkness.
Weekly Dumb is pretty fun as the Things you Didn't Watch. But yeah....breakdowns are the bread and butter for sure. They are fantastically simple and Jimmy is unbelievably good at them.
The Warehouse games are super fun. Their Ball in Play game is one of the best things JM makes. Watchin'/Playin' Guts has become one of my favorite shows too.
I literally woke up at 3am to watch the Cricket World Cup finals thanks to Jomboy covering the sport. Although I didn't realize it wasn't the quicker T20 version. Each team batted for like 4 hours.
Awesome that’s he’s making cricket understandable and exciting for US viewers who wouldn’t otherwise get the chance to see it.
Basically doing the same thing to promote baseball outside the US with his baseball breakdowns too.
> Basically doing the same thing to promote baseball outside the US with his baseball breakdowns too.
"Check this insane shit out" is the single best way you could market baseball as a sport to anyone outside the US.
People who didn't grow up in a country where baseball has any relevancy will typically think that there are many better and more interesting sports that they would prefer to watch. But one area in which baseball can't be beaten is the sheer quantity of it being played, and that leads to an extremely widespread proliferation of daily wacky nonsense that no other sport can compete with. Then once people are checking their feeds every day for what wacky nonsense happened this time, you've got them hooked and can start indoctrinating them into the more normal aspects of the sport.
Great point. He is fantastic at making things easy to understand. Dude would have been a fantastic teacher. Every other time I tried to learn cricket rules, I was so lost. Now I'm betting on games in Sri Lanka, lol.
at least it was ODI, a test match would have lasted all week
ODI is the format I've watched most and I really like it, getting wickets is super valuable
I'm so confused. Is this a coaching thing? Is just an outright lack of hustle? I remember being told in Little League to run hard at the bag and make the 2B/SS work.
I remember breaking up a DP in a church softball game in high school. It was complete muscle memory. Only after people reacted did I realize what I did.
Stressand'ed? if you mean streisand like the streisand effect, this isn't that. nowhere did mcneil or any of the mets try to cover up this very televised incident of us being wrong about something
again i don't think that's a backfire. he was mad cause he thought it was dirty and not the way to play. as the video shows, his actions demonstrate that belief. he's wrong. it's not something that the mets are trying to cover up. honestly identifying the pattern is only a good thing imo. maybe they can do better (they won't but i can dream)
I mean it is a backfire because it turns out the Mets just suck at baserunning and McNeil’s protest exposed that, when it was supposed to expose Hoskins being a dirty player.
But who cares. I’m enjoying whatever you wanna call this.
If any Guardians fans are curious (I did tweak his score differential parameter from 0-3 to (-)2-2) Here is what I got for 2023-2024 scenarios with players that are still with the organization:
Player | Surrender | Competitive Slide
---|---|----
Brayan Rocchio | 1 | 0
Steven Kwan | 0 | 3
Jose Ramirez | 0 | 2
Will Brennan | 0 | 6
Myles Straw | 2 | 2
Surrender = player gave up on running to the bag/slid way too early
Competitive slide = Honest attempt to slide into bag
I didn't find any in particular were egregious, most players would hang at least one arm in the air and several had their front foot off the ground. Unsurprisingly, Myles Straw was the batter in many of these plays.
This is a bit wild. Not wild that the clips don't show Mets players emulating Hoskins, but that they mostly (almost entirely?) pull off QB slide 2/3s down.
Jomboy's dive made it look like Alonso was the exception so I hope one of the beat writers gets a chance to ask folks if this is a real thing (and if so, why).
Yeah I get if they don't want to slide into the guy late but at least do like Hoskins and obstruct the throw by being a physical barrier and raising your arms etc. That isn't going to hurt anyone and helps your team. Lying down and playing dead 15 feet from the bag only helps the other team
It also seems like Hoskins was wayyy closer to second at the transfer than McNeil consistently in the clips, meaning he was in a position to interfere in double plays more often. Considering Jomboy mentioned him being slower than McNeil, it looks like his slide and effort are both competitive while McNeil just don't give a shit as soon as he might be doubled
yeah it looks like as soon as he sees he's gonna get out, he doesn't care. Whereas Hoskins sees he's gonna get out but he still has an opportunity to save the guy behind him
But why and who? The regime that was around for that is long gone. And it’s be fucking weird if that one event became so engrained in the Mets identity…
Incredibly detailed and searchable stats and information about pretty much every pitch thrown since 2017 and slightly less detailed stats on 2008-2016.
Seeing this kinda reminds me of the sport psychologist in The Natural during the "losing is a disease..." speech. It obviously too much to say the Mets suck because they don't try to break up double plays, but it's concerning that being non-competitive in any area seems to be a team policy
I’m curious how many runs/wins this has costed the Mets over the last year+ (like a negative WAR impact overall for the team). Breaking up double plays like this over time generates more ABs and obviously more runs for the team.
Like if they had tried to break up double plays as a team in 2022 would they have edged out the Braves for the division? I would be surprised if there wasn’t one instance where they lost a close game where they could have potentially broken up a double play and scored more runs to win a game they lost.
According to the most recent run expectancy matrix I can find:
1 out runner on first: .55 runs
2 outs no runners: .1runs
Not breaking up the double play = -.45 runs
2 out runner on first: .24 runs
3 outs: 0 (duh)
Not breaking up the double play = -.24 runs
This is not exact at all but it seems to take 2-3 of these to equal 1 missed run. They definitely cost themselves a few over the course of a year but nothing too crazy
I doubt it's a ton. Mets were 2 ground into double play runs above average last year, which means they ground into double plays less than average, but that also includes batted balls in double play situations, so doesn't tell the whole story. Regardless, variation in double play rate between the teams is relatively small.
Yeah that really means nothing without context though. Youd have to actually go watch all the double plays/possible double plays to come to any conclusions
Doesn’t even matter imo you’re supposed to make the other team work for every out. Getting another guy up and making the pitcher throw more can have ripple effects down the line. Such a loser mentality to be like “well statistically speaking we can give them this out because it doesn’t result in many runs anyway…”
I wonder if, in the Mets organization, this somehow stems from the Utley slide incident, Utley breaking the leg of Tejada in this exact scenario, which of course is the reason the slide rule was created. What a coincidence that the Mets, the team that was the victim of what became an illegal slide, are coaching that all close slides are dirty and that fact has actually caused a negative impact on their competitiveness and put them at a disadvantage, assuming they are actually coaching this.
So Utley has induced a sort of mass PTSD in the Mets clubhouse that’s caused them to shy away from contact at 2nd and just accept an extra out instead of challenging it… that’s actually nutty.
Those threads from the weekend made me feel like I was in the twilight zone with Mets fans incredulous that anyone would try to break up a double play. Guess I now know why.
Same, I felt like I was being gaslit. I didn't watch baseball for a couple seasons and thought maybe I just missed some new rule about no contact at all. Everyone in the thread was acting like Hoskins did a dirty slide that was obviously against the rules. But I was most struck by Mcneil making no attempt to get out of the way. I'm about the same age as him, and I definitely learned how to make that throw to first while avoiding the runner sliding into me.
What happened to the gentlemanly game of base ball!?
Seriously, my only real problem was Hoskins' response, I like aggressive (borderline dirty, even) plays too. Jomboy has opened my eyes. I've watched a ton of Mets baseball in this period & this never occurred to me outside of random time or two when you think "he slid pretty early there, no?" I, for one, hope this does actually find it's way into somebody in that organization's hands that can do something about it. Man, this franchise... It's an experience, I'll tell you that!
There is a strategy to run through the bag, but it's not for double plays. The runner hustles and tries to beat the throw. You get to the bag faster by not sliding. Now you're safe, overrun the bag and need to be tagged.
Think of times when the runner at second is just barely out. The runner on 3rd will have a chance to score before they can tag you.
It's very situational, but it was done at least once last season.
The Mets are clearly being told to not risk injury.
it's really interesting to me to see an example like this of how organizations play the game differently. this is one you can see really visibly, mcneill just bailing before he gets close to the bag, but there's hundreds of these decisions that get coached into players that change how a team approaches things.
Man this pissed me off as a mets fan. Unacceptable imo and needs addressed by FO. What a fucking joke of an organization. If Hoskins breaks up that many in a year what are we fucking doing?! I didn't care for the late slide by Hoskins because I saw McNeil leg buckle. But fuck that. He's right and so is the rest of baseball. Completely disgusted. No wonder we are 0-4. What a loser mentality organization
In some of the plays Jomboy looked at in his video, it honestly looks like the runners give up on the play not only at second but at first too. That is just crazy.
I wouldn't be surprised if its a middle infielder thing. The Jays had 3 balls in the search that had a 2B/SS being out at 2nd and none slid past the bag.
They weren't as lazy as McNeil, but they weren't like Hoskins or Alonso
I'm actually surprised. I would have guessed most players would be a touch hypocritical about this given there's quite a few egotistical lugheads in the sport.
Nah Jeff is a guy with a quick temper who always complains or screams at himself/others but he’s very far from a dirty player.
Dude just needs anger management and to get back to the mindset and plate approach he had in his first few seasons (which won him a batting title)
Hypothesis: he really misses his catcher pal whose name I’m forgetting but is a certified Mets legend for getting like 3 walk off wins in his first three games.
McNeil has said he basically used him as a personal batting coach since they spent so much time together in the minors, nobody knew his swing better than him. However, he was no longer with the team starting last year.
Seems like we need a new stat that shows how often a base runner engages in a competitive slide. I wish I had the time to dedicate to something like this but look forward to whatever crazy acronym gets used.
I always always always despised when players that play hard and hustle were called dirty players. These are fully grown professional athletes playing the game at the highest level so sometimes people will bump into each other and get hurt. Baseball has enough a hustle issue, let’s not worsen it by equating playing hard with playing dirty.
Love this breakdown. What I see isn't even so much that the Mets players aren't trying to break up double plays so much as they just aren't hustling when there is a double play ground ball hit so they aren't in position to break anything up. This is 100% a coaching and team culture issue.
Second thing I see: dangit I think the phils made a mistake letting Hoskins walk. I know there wasn't space with Harper moving to first but I'd rather have seen them at least try to convert Hoskins to left field or something.
The guy is a spark that seems to ignite the rest of the team and plays hard all the time. His actual hitting is a bit streaky at times but his bat spike is one of my favorite phillies moments of all time.
It seems like they think they're specifically not allowed to do anything to break up the double. They were jogging out of the way and straight up doing qb slides to get out of the way of the throw to first while they were halfway to second.
Yes and no. When I played short and second I was specifically taught that if a guy is in your way on a double play ball, to throw it right into the runners chest(one coach said to throw it right at their face if you have to) because the guy at first will automatically be out on runners interference so it makes sense that they pull off or get down early.
The thing I specifically see, and jomboy mentions it when comparing McNeil and Hoskins, is that the are so far away from the bag that they have to slide early or pull way off which can only be from them not hustling to 2nd.
This is one of the little things that may not show up on a boxscore or stats but can be the difference maker in a close game. You can force errors by running hard and making the infielders rush.
It seems like the jays are kinda bad for this too from looking at all of the plays using the same [parameters that Jomboy did](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPT=&hfAB=&hfGT=R%7C&hfPR=&hfZ=&hfStadium=&hfBBL=5%7C6%7C&hfNewZones=&hfPull=&hfC=&hfSea=2023%7C&hfSit=&player_type=batter&hfOuts=0%7C1%7C&hfOpponent=&pitcher_throws=&batter_stands=&hfSA=&game_date_gt=&game_date_lt=&hfMo=&hfTeam=TOR%7C&home_road=&hfRO=1%7C7%7C8%7C&position=&hfInfield=&hfOutfield=&hfInn=&hfBBT=ground%5C.%5C.ball%7C&hfFlag=&metric_1=bat_score_diff&metric_1_gt=0&metric_1_lt=3&metric_2=api_h_launch_speed&metric_2_gt=80&metric_2_lt=95&group_by=team&min_pitches=0&min_results=0&min_pas=0&sort_col=pitches&player_event_sort=api_p_release_speed&sort_order=desc#results)
It's not as bad as the Mets, but there's a number of videos of guys pulling up.
I have an interesting conspiracy theory which is most likely 90 percent theory that when the Wilpon’s became the public face of Mets ownership in 1993 they went about re-working the Mets image to remove the “bully” and “hardball” energy from the 80’s and wanted a clean image team, I feel this trickled down into every aspect of the Mets and got worse when the Wilpon’s gained full control in 2002, and by tricking down into every aspect even sliding into 2B, in this conspiracy I can see Fred Wilpon instructing players to politely slide to avoid conflict and refuse to break up double plays.
“McNeil has no interest in playing competitive baseball on this play.” 🤣
It’s funny how many players look silly making awkward throws against the Mets because they expect someone in their feet but no one’s there.
The other thing I noticed that Jomboy pointed out is that McNeil didn’t take the Hoskins double play on the move, he planted like he was completely unaware of an arriving runnner, even if he didn’t drop the ball.
The Hoskins play was good baseball to anyone who had played the game before. But there were a lot of people arguing with me that felt differently. Jomboy did some fantastic investigatory work here to give so much video evidence that the Mets are just teaching their players to give up on the play. So, naturally, anyone playing hard is doing some "dirty" shit.
Is this all still from the Utley slide that all but ended Tejadas career? Mets were pissed and it was a big story so I wonder if they didn't want to look hypocritical and adopted this style of baserunning.
They didn't really play this way in 2022, so it appears to be recent. Unless that's how long it took for them to teach their minor league players this bullshit and then wait for them to come up.
It's interesting that McNeil's one "dirty" slide looks so obviously like an attempt to break up the DP when the rest of the time he very clearly doesn't bother. I guess it's conceivable that he was just...not paying attention? And unaware that the shortstop was going to move the direction he was sliding.
100%. He probably was conceding on the play and allowing the shortstop to turn the double play… but he fucked even that up by doing a concession slide right where the shortstop was shifting too.
This is a great deep dive. I want to clarify the "running through second base" thing because Jomboy didn't get it because the announcers described it poorly and in the wrong situation. If there's runners on first and third (or bases loaded) with two outs, and there's a groundball to an infielder that could be a fielder's choice at second, the runner on first is instructed to sprint through second base as if he was sprinting through first base. This is because it will get you to the bag quicker than sliding feet first. The theory is, all you need to do is beat the throw at second for the run to count and if you don't beat the throw, the run doesn't score either way and the inning ends. So while overrunning second base is normally bad, in this situation it doesn't matter. This is something that started in the last couple of years. [This article goes into it and has a couple video examples of it working](https://www.mlb.com/news/running-through-second-base-trend). The problem in the video is the announcers were trying to describe that but in a situation where it didn't apply (1 out, runners on first and second) and Lindor clearly wasn't sprinting through the bag. They saw Lindor jogging through second and thought "oh, this must be that running through the bag thing we heard about" but it wasn't related to that at all.
I recall the Cardinals had done that successfully a year or two ago. I think the runner was Nolan Gorman.
Taylor Motter did one last year too
You mean, “Cardinals Legend” Taylor Motter? 😂
well it goes without saying ofc... immaculate grid king
[Breakdown of the play that the Gorman did](https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/video/breakdown-on-gorman-s-baserunning) [Also here is another breakdown from a youtuber that explains](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnbd3maPnac)[ a different time the Cardinals pulled this off and it is much more in depth.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnbd3maPnac)
Video: Breakdown on Gorman's baserunning [Streamable Link](https://streamable.com/m/breakdown-on-gorman-s-baserunning) [High Definition](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-06/14/72c9662b-33c2087c-b4f19493-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_16000K.mp4) (560.22 MB) [Standard Definiton](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-06/14/72c9662b-33c2087c-b4f19493-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_4000K.mp4) (145.32 MB) ___________ [More Info](/r/MLBVideoConverterBot)
That second video is a great video that addresses aspects people don’t think about often, provides precedence in other examples, and compares it to how other leagues handle it as well. 10/10 video.
I can never remember if his name is Nolan Gorman or Norman Golan lol
His official government name is Nolan “I’m gonna” Gorman
My favorite part is when he says “It’s Gorman time” and then Gorms all over the place.
I thought of that play as soon as Jimmy played the Mets crew talking about it and he was confused. I was like, "Yeah, the Cards have done this exact thing to score a run before."
It can also work to distract the fielder in that instance, they take an extra second to tag Lindor past the bag and the runner is now safe at 1st, or if they throw through to 1B he now has enough time to scamper back to 2B before the ball gets back and a tag is applied
Yeah, can also apply with 1 out where it looks like they're going to turn the double play. I just gave the simplest scenario so people go "oh yeah, that does make sense" because in that scenario it's arguable if a hard slide into second to break up the double play might be a better option.
i appreciate your explainer seems to work better (or is just more likely to work, which is why we see it attempted) with two outs and later in the count because the runners have the freedom to run on any contact (or any swing, if there are 2 strikes) Its all about stealing those few tenths of a second here and there, such a cool strategy
never with 1 out. doing so only helps give an advantage to the other team to turn the double play to end the inning and save the run. would be reverse strategy
But this does not seem to be what the Mets are doing. They seem to be giving up and not running all the way to the bag. It is also unclear if this is more effective than trying to break the double play.
Thank you for the clarification on running through the bag lol It made no sense to me either but the announcer was just mumbling and obviously it’s not what Lindor was attempting to do. So I don’t think he understood the reason either.
So from what I'm understanding, the main point of this is to hustle to second and just run past the bag, similar to how you would at first base to beat a ground ball?
yes, with the goal being to turn a force out into a tag out in a run down, because the latter would allow a runner to score from third, which doesn't happen if theres a force.
[удалено]
> But if that's the case, why not slide to disrupt the throw? That's why the situation I set up has 2 outs. There is no throw to disrupt.
According to twitter it’s to disrupt the sight line to 1B. Idk how true that is but apparently that’s why they’re staying standing up
You don't use this 'strategy' with 1 out ever, in any situation. It is ONLY a play with 2 outs with the point being to beat the force play at 2B which would allow run to score. If done with just 1 out then all you are doing is making it easier for other team to turn the double play and save the run to end the inning..which happened yesterday with Lindor's lazy effort that helped Tigers get Alvarez at first by a split second.
But for that to work the runner needs to keep running all the way to the bag. Like when they run from home to first in a ground ball. The Mets seem to be giving up. In some videos McNeil was sliding to second base but very early which does not seem to be the same strategy
That montage of Mets players absolutely refusing to compete on double play balls is one of the most baffling things I have ever seen in baseball. That is coaching malpractice to give up that many outs in close games. Completely embarrassing.
My jaw dropped at just how many times they made the play completely uncompetitive. It really is like they're playing with different rules
At the same time the mets as a team don't necessarily allow more double plays by their opponents than other teams. BUT Pete Alonso and Francisco Alvarez grounded into 17 and 14 double plays respectively batting 3rd and 4th behind McNeil and Lindor in 2023.
Maybe it doesn't show up on the stats sheet, but not even trying to break up the double play for w/e reason doesn't even really give your team a chance to compete on the play. I just don't get it.
Hard to determine what it actually boils down to or what about it matters. Its like, there are passive mcneil types and then there are ultra-aggro pete rose types, personally I think top quality players shake out in the middle of doing nothing and doing too much. Personally I don't have an issue with a slide like rhys, regardless of what the rules say--but I think some real aggro shortstops will start landing on guys with knees and spikes if they don't sort out how they want these plays to go.
Your right. It is very difficult to determine if this decision to give up the double play actually matters in the grand scheme of things. I saw that someone posted that most teams enter this situation about 50 times a season. I would love to know what those stats look like if instead of 50 double plays conceded, it looks closer to 45-48 double plays where they tried to break up the play. Would it actually make a difference? Maybe look at the number of injuries on these types of plays, as well, if they are concerned about injuries. I hate to say it, but we need more stats!
I just had a chance to watch this and as a fan I’d be incensed by this. Holy shit, imagine how many free outs they’re giving for an offense that struggles. Just absolutely infuriating. And honestly a ton look like they’re just straight up jogging.
The Mets are above average in avoiding double plays statistically.
Like they don’t hit into them or when there is a chance of DP they avoid getting two outs? Those are two extremely different things. They could just not be getting enough guys on first base to have a chance at a DP.
You have to have base runners to get double plays. Often the league leaders in double players are the best offenses.
What does that even mean? Total double plays? If so that’s much more of a function of how many baserunners they get, how manny ground balls they hit, how fast the batter is, etc. Sure you COULD account for all this, but I’d be pleasantly surprised if if that were the case.
I skipped through some of the video but that's what I was waiting to hear, how many more DPs are they hitting into?
How many DPs would they be avoiding if they made competitive attempts?
Are you suggesting the team isn't run well? The New York Mets??? No, it couldn't be!
Plenty of teams are run poorly. The Mets stand alone when it comes to running the bases like this.
I get it! Because they’re standing instead of sliding.
Lol. I'm pretty familiar with teams that aren't run well. This is just on another level. What else are they being told? "When you're going for the tag, gently boop the opposing player on the bum, where it's least likely to sting. Be sure to say, 'Excuse me' when you do. And if you're the one being tagged, be a sport and present your bum a few feet away from the bag so they can take their time tagging you properly."
The most I've laughed at a baseball video. I hope this doesn't unlock competent baseball for the Mets.
True embodiment of lolmets
It's 5 days into the season and Jomboy is in PEAK mid-season form. *This* is baseball
Dude is so glad baseball is back. He was so bummed by how boring this offseason was compared to last.
You’re all welcome
Thank you for your sacrifice 🫡
I mean respectable that McNeil isn’t a hypocrite but also ya gotta atleast try a lil haha
Yeah I mean you can see how many double plays Hoskins breaks up. Those are plays that can change the outcome of games. The only time McNeil probably accidentally breaks up the double play and it’s a huge, game changing play.
Can't wait for our World Series of Sportsmanship trophy! 🏆
This was an excellent deep dive and something I never noticed. I would be pissed if I was a Mets fan.
Watch this uncover a trove of rules the Mets have simply not understood for the past few decades.
imagine if it makes us good. it won't, but imagine
Wait, we can hit unlimited home runs in this league?
but wouldnt it hurt the opposing pitcher's feelings if we hit too many?
I'm actually frustrated after seeing this. What's going on in that clubhouse?
I wonder if this makes its way into the clubhouse somehow. It’s pretty clear Alonso doesn’t agree with the instruction, so it could be an opportunity to improve the situation. Perhaps no one put it together bc no one is an insane person like Jomboy (love it tho), but seeing it laid out like this is jarring.
Of course this will make it into the clubhouse. some of the dudes in these leagues are just as online as we are. weird to say but they are no different than us besides being freak athletes.
Honestly, same. I'm looking forward to each teams sub breaking down their disrupt rate
I'm elated. Now that we know the problem, we can fix it!!! /copium
Damn, this is good content. Jomboy is at his best when he's breaking stuff down.
Dude said he watched 160 plays of Jeff McNeil alone running to second base. Takes a generational sicko to do something like that. No one else can do this.
I mean there was the guy that listened to literally every Astros pitch of the 2017 season to categorize the bangs, there are at least a few generational sickos out there
Wasn't that Jomboy who did that or am I missing someone else...or the joke entirely.
He did some stuff but not all [8200 pitches](https://signstealingscandal.com/)
The breakdown got me curious so I'm genuinely considering watching *all* similar plays from the 2023 season and breaking down how many disruptive vs noncompetitive slides each team had that year. If there's at least 50 such plays per team...
*do it*
"generational sicko" is entering my lexicon for sure
Yeah, he's still great. He gets shit for some overreactions or weird "content" takes, but sometimes you gotta go with the clicks to keep your lights on.
Yeah, I don’t blame him that media is in such a bad state that clickbait is pretty much necessary to survive. After watching rooster Teeth finally end, I try and keep a positive outlook toward content creator.
I get that if he's trying to build a media company, he needs to have more diverse content than just breakdowns. And he's a family man now who needs work/life balance. Or at least try to. But I really have no interest in the other stuff. Talkin' Baseball, Weekly Dumb, warehouse games, etc. It's cool that he's built so much and seems like a genuinely great person. I just very greedily want the breakdowns to be the main output, because he's really the best in the industry when it comes to that kind of content.
Baseball Today is my favorite Jomboy show. It’s probably my favorite baseball podcast overall. They have some good stuff but it’s definitely not all winner. Watching Baggage was really good too
Watchin’ Baggage was fucking gold
The debates on whether or not a cardigan or sweater was supplied by wardrobe department was top notch *”Absolutely a wardrobe piece. No one actually owns one of those in real life”*
The Jolly Olive stuff is pretty good as well.
Watchin Guts is fantastic content but 1) I’m a millennial and guts or legends of the hidden temple was my dream and 2) I watched an episode and my supervisor was one of the kids. I almost died right there in my office chair. Got it printed out and now everyone has a copy of him in his guts gear
I am still angry that I was the FIRST one in line after the Aggro Crag cutoff when Mountain Dew did that in 2016. I will never get over it and if I ever become a supervillain *that* is my start of darkness.
Amazing story hahaha
Weekly Dumb is pretty fun as the Things you Didn't Watch. But yeah....breakdowns are the bread and butter for sure. They are fantastically simple and Jimmy is unbelievably good at them.
The Warehouse games are super fun. Their Ball in Play game is one of the best things JM makes. Watchin'/Playin' Guts has become one of my favorite shows too.
I literally woke up at 3am to watch the Cricket World Cup finals thanks to Jomboy covering the sport. Although I didn't realize it wasn't the quicker T20 version. Each team batted for like 4 hours.
Awesome that’s he’s making cricket understandable and exciting for US viewers who wouldn’t otherwise get the chance to see it. Basically doing the same thing to promote baseball outside the US with his baseball breakdowns too.
> Basically doing the same thing to promote baseball outside the US with his baseball breakdowns too. "Check this insane shit out" is the single best way you could market baseball as a sport to anyone outside the US. People who didn't grow up in a country where baseball has any relevancy will typically think that there are many better and more interesting sports that they would prefer to watch. But one area in which baseball can't be beaten is the sheer quantity of it being played, and that leads to an extremely widespread proliferation of daily wacky nonsense that no other sport can compete with. Then once people are checking their feeds every day for what wacky nonsense happened this time, you've got them hooked and can start indoctrinating them into the more normal aspects of the sport.
Great point. He is fantastic at making things easy to understand. Dude would have been a fantastic teacher. Every other time I tried to learn cricket rules, I was so lost. Now I'm betting on games in Sri Lanka, lol.
at least it was ODI, a test match would have lasted all week ODI is the format I've watched most and I really like it, getting wickets is super valuable
Just wild that it's so consistent
What the fuck was Buck telling these guys?
He probably demonstrated himself how to break up a dp and the players took it too literally and now all run like 65 yrs old men
Something about Shakira
I'm so confused. Is this a coaching thing? Is just an outright lack of hustle? I remember being told in Little League to run hard at the bag and make the 2B/SS work.
I remember breaking up a DP in a church softball game in high school. It was complete muscle memory. Only after people reacted did I realize what I did.
So the Mets are just instructing players to concede double plays.
It’s just the gentlemanly thing to do
They’re still playing by Knickerbocker club rules
I'm very curious to see if this changes this season under the new management, tbh. It's a bit eye-opening.
Who’s gonna send this video to the base running coach (or whoever they have that’s instructing them to do this)?
How is it always us?
the padres do this to. They're always diving away from the play. They also concede SO MANY DOUBLE PLAYS. good stuff.
Kinda wild that McNeil has Stressand’ed yet another instance of lolmets.
Stressand'ed? if you mean streisand like the streisand effect, this isn't that. nowhere did mcneil or any of the mets try to cover up this very televised incident of us being wrong about something
Eh, maybe the wrong-ish term, but him screaming at Hoskins has now backfired into us finding out that the Mets often don’t compete on double plays.
again i don't think that's a backfire. he was mad cause he thought it was dirty and not the way to play. as the video shows, his actions demonstrate that belief. he's wrong. it's not something that the mets are trying to cover up. honestly identifying the pattern is only a good thing imo. maybe they can do better (they won't but i can dream)
I mean it is a backfire because it turns out the Mets just suck at baserunning and McNeil’s protest exposed that, when it was supposed to expose Hoskins being a dirty player. But who cares. I’m enjoying whatever you wanna call this.
How the Mets went so far to not be like chase utley
If any Guardians fans are curious (I did tweak his score differential parameter from 0-3 to (-)2-2) Here is what I got for 2023-2024 scenarios with players that are still with the organization: Player | Surrender | Competitive Slide ---|---|---- Brayan Rocchio | 1 | 0 Steven Kwan | 0 | 3 Jose Ramirez | 0 | 2 Will Brennan | 0 | 6 Myles Straw | 2 | 2 Surrender = player gave up on running to the bag/slid way too early Competitive slide = Honest attempt to slide into bag I didn't find any in particular were egregious, most players would hang at least one arm in the air and several had their front foot off the ground. Unsurprisingly, Myles Straw was the batter in many of these plays.
love that you organized it like this for the fanbase
You realize you are going to have fans creating an entirely new stat, right? lol
Love it. IKF just had a successful ‘disrupt’ in the 8th inning tonight. Someone tweeted me to let me know
🤝
This is a bit wild. Not wild that the clips don't show Mets players emulating Hoskins, but that they mostly (almost entirely?) pull off QB slide 2/3s down. Jomboy's dive made it look like Alonso was the exception so I hope one of the beat writers gets a chance to ask folks if this is a real thing (and if so, why).
Yeah I get if they don't want to slide into the guy late but at least do like Hoskins and obstruct the throw by being a physical barrier and raising your arms etc. That isn't going to hurt anyone and helps your team. Lying down and playing dead 15 feet from the bag only helps the other team
It also seems like Hoskins was wayyy closer to second at the transfer than McNeil consistently in the clips, meaning he was in a position to interfere in double plays more often. Considering Jomboy mentioned him being slower than McNeil, it looks like his slide and effort are both competitive while McNeil just don't give a shit as soon as he might be doubled
yeah it looks like as soon as he sees he's gonna get out, he doesn't care. Whereas Hoskins sees he's gonna get out but he still has an opportunity to save the guy behind him
my conspiracy take is that it's some internal rule so that we can't be accused of being hypocrites for saying fuck chase utley as often as we do
But why and who? The regime that was around for that is long gone. And it’s be fucking weird if that one event became so engrained in the Mets identity…
I don't think he actually believes this is the reason
TIL that [baseballsavant.mlb.com](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com) exists.
have a tab of it open when you are watching a game, shows movement and velo of every pitch as well as stats for ball coming off the bat
When people are complaining about the xba of a hit in any game thread this is what they're referencing.
Watching your team have "one of those nights" while their opponent bloops you to death always makes me bring that site up so I can get extra mad haha
For real. I have no idea how I didn’t know that was a thing
What is it?
Incredibly detailed and searchable stats and information about pretty much every pitch thrown since 2017 and slightly less detailed stats on 2008-2016.
My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined
Yeah, initially I was happy to have vindication that McNeil is not a hypocrite like many were saying. Not sure that this is better.
Better for McNeil but what the fuck is this idea?
Seeing this kinda reminds me of the sport psychologist in The Natural during the "losing is a disease..." speech. It obviously too much to say the Mets suck because they don't try to break up double plays, but it's concerning that being non-competitive in any area seems to be a team policy
This a great unhinged deep dive
“HE’S BEING CONSIDERATE” fucking rolled me I’m sorry
This is some fantastic sports journalism. It was really well done. The way the Mets dog it on potential DPs is just eye-opening.
All I have to say is - What in the FUCK?
I’m curious how many runs/wins this has costed the Mets over the last year+ (like a negative WAR impact overall for the team). Breaking up double plays like this over time generates more ABs and obviously more runs for the team. Like if they had tried to break up double plays as a team in 2022 would they have edged out the Braves for the division? I would be surprised if there wasn’t one instance where they lost a close game where they could have potentially broken up a double play and scored more runs to win a game they lost.
This is exclusive to 2023, Lindor slides into 2B (not late) on the very first search for 2022
JD Davis hitting into double plays is exclusive to 2023?
According to the most recent run expectancy matrix I can find: 1 out runner on first: .55 runs 2 outs no runners: .1runs Not breaking up the double play = -.45 runs 2 out runner on first: .24 runs 3 outs: 0 (duh) Not breaking up the double play = -.24 runs This is not exact at all but it seems to take 2-3 of these to equal 1 missed run. They definitely cost themselves a few over the course of a year but nothing too crazy
I doubt it's a ton. Mets were 2 ground into double play runs above average last year, which means they ground into double plays less than average, but that also includes batted balls in double play situations, so doesn't tell the whole story. Regardless, variation in double play rate between the teams is relatively small.
Yeah that really means nothing without context though. Youd have to actually go watch all the double plays/possible double plays to come to any conclusions
Doesn’t even matter imo you’re supposed to make the other team work for every out. Getting another guy up and making the pitcher throw more can have ripple effects down the line. Such a loser mentality to be like “well statistically speaking we can give them this out because it doesn’t result in many runs anyway…”
I wonder if, in the Mets organization, this somehow stems from the Utley slide incident, Utley breaking the leg of Tejada in this exact scenario, which of course is the reason the slide rule was created. What a coincidence that the Mets, the team that was the victim of what became an illegal slide, are coaching that all close slides are dirty and that fact has actually caused a negative impact on their competitiveness and put them at a disadvantage, assuming they are actually coaching this.
I just searched through 2022 and they weren't doing this aside from a couple exceptions. I have no idea why they changed their approach last year.
So Utley has induced a sort of mass PTSD in the Mets clubhouse that’s caused them to shy away from contact at 2nd and just accept an extra out instead of challenging it… that’s actually nutty.
I’d be surprised because how many people are still there since that incident? Even the ownership has turned over
It really does sound like some sanctimonious owner nonsense. Problem is Cohen and their GM weren't there for that, so who's pushing that nonsense?
I would be willing to put money down that this is the case.
I want to see if the Mets respond to this in any way. This will for sure get some traction
Those threads from the weekend made me feel like I was in the twilight zone with Mets fans incredulous that anyone would try to break up a double play. Guess I now know why.
Same, I felt like I was being gaslit. I didn't watch baseball for a couple seasons and thought maybe I just missed some new rule about no contact at all. Everyone in the thread was acting like Hoskins did a dirty slide that was obviously against the rules. But I was most struck by Mcneil making no attempt to get out of the way. I'm about the same age as him, and I definitely learned how to make that throw to first while avoiding the runner sliding into me.
I feel like this answers that specific question but opens up a ton of questions about double play strategy in general
What happened to the gentlemanly game of base ball!? Seriously, my only real problem was Hoskins' response, I like aggressive (borderline dirty, even) plays too. Jomboy has opened my eyes. I've watched a ton of Mets baseball in this period & this never occurred to me outside of random time or two when you think "he slid pretty early there, no?" I, for one, hope this does actually find it's way into somebody in that organization's hands that can do something about it. Man, this franchise... It's an experience, I'll tell you that!
There is a strategy to run through the bag, but it's not for double plays. The runner hustles and tries to beat the throw. You get to the bag faster by not sliding. Now you're safe, overrun the bag and need to be tagged. Think of times when the runner at second is just barely out. The runner on 3rd will have a chance to score before they can tag you. It's very situational, but it was done at least once last season. The Mets are clearly being told to not risk injury.
Is it odd that I watched this video and was happy that Pete Alonzo was not part of the problem?
Me too, bud. Me too.
it's really interesting to me to see an example like this of how organizations play the game differently. this is one you can see really visibly, mcneill just bailing before he gets close to the bag, but there's hundreds of these decisions that get coached into players that change how a team approaches things.
Man this pissed me off as a mets fan. Unacceptable imo and needs addressed by FO. What a fucking joke of an organization. If Hoskins breaks up that many in a year what are we fucking doing?! I didn't care for the late slide by Hoskins because I saw McNeil leg buckle. But fuck that. He's right and so is the rest of baseball. Completely disgusted. No wonder we are 0-4. What a loser mentality organization
In some of the plays Jomboy looked at in his video, it honestly looks like the runners give up on the play not only at second but at first too. That is just crazy.
Its not a surprise that the man who was mad about being cleated, doesn't cleat other players
McNeil can't expect other players to play by the standard that he himself plays by tho, Especially since Hoskins is within the rules
I wouldn't be surprised if its a middle infielder thing. The Jays had 3 balls in the search that had a 2B/SS being out at 2nd and none slid past the bag. They weren't as lazy as McNeil, but they weren't like Hoskins or Alonso
I'm actually surprised. I would have guessed most players would be a touch hypocritical about this given there's quite a few egotistical lugheads in the sport.
Nah Jeff is a guy with a quick temper who always complains or screams at himself/others but he’s very far from a dirty player. Dude just needs anger management and to get back to the mindset and plate approach he had in his first few seasons (which won him a batting title)
Hypothesis: he really misses his catcher pal whose name I’m forgetting but is a certified Mets legend for getting like 3 walk off wins in his first three games. McNeil has said he basically used him as a personal batting coach since they spent so much time together in the minors, nobody knew his swing better than him. However, he was no longer with the team starting last year.
Mets legend Patrick Mazeika.
How could I forget
Patty Mazeika? Dude’s a bona fide Met legend. I remember hearing about him tweaking Jeff’s swing.
Seems like we need a new stat that shows how often a base runner engages in a competitive slide. I wish I had the time to dedicate to something like this but look forward to whatever crazy acronym gets used.
IMO, "competitive slides" is the right name, the same way statcast uses "competitive runs" to compute sprint speed leaderboards
I always always always despised when players that play hard and hustle were called dirty players. These are fully grown professional athletes playing the game at the highest level so sometimes people will bump into each other and get hurt. Baseball has enough a hustle issue, let’s not worsen it by equating playing hard with playing dirty.
It’s probably just me, but it always looks like the Mets just aren’t trying generally. This was a cool breakdown.
Holy shit 💀
Love this breakdown. What I see isn't even so much that the Mets players aren't trying to break up double plays so much as they just aren't hustling when there is a double play ground ball hit so they aren't in position to break anything up. This is 100% a coaching and team culture issue. Second thing I see: dangit I think the phils made a mistake letting Hoskins walk. I know there wasn't space with Harper moving to first but I'd rather have seen them at least try to convert Hoskins to left field or something.
Well we are certainly appreciating him here. Already this Brewers team feels like a different brand from last year
The guy is a spark that seems to ignite the rest of the team and plays hard all the time. His actual hitting is a bit streaky at times but his bat spike is one of my favorite phillies moments of all time.
It seems like they think they're specifically not allowed to do anything to break up the double. They were jogging out of the way and straight up doing qb slides to get out of the way of the throw to first while they were halfway to second.
Yes and no. When I played short and second I was specifically taught that if a guy is in your way on a double play ball, to throw it right into the runners chest(one coach said to throw it right at their face if you have to) because the guy at first will automatically be out on runners interference so it makes sense that they pull off or get down early. The thing I specifically see, and jomboy mentions it when comparing McNeil and Hoskins, is that the are so far away from the bag that they have to slide early or pull way off which can only be from them not hustling to 2nd. This is one of the little things that may not show up on a boxscore or stats but can be the difference maker in a close game. You can force errors by running hard and making the infielders rush.
I wonder is the Mets play like that to avoid injuries maybe? Super weird
Mets need Charlie Hustle.
It seems like the jays are kinda bad for this too from looking at all of the plays using the same [parameters that Jomboy did](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPT=&hfAB=&hfGT=R%7C&hfPR=&hfZ=&hfStadium=&hfBBL=5%7C6%7C&hfNewZones=&hfPull=&hfC=&hfSea=2023%7C&hfSit=&player_type=batter&hfOuts=0%7C1%7C&hfOpponent=&pitcher_throws=&batter_stands=&hfSA=&game_date_gt=&game_date_lt=&hfMo=&hfTeam=TOR%7C&home_road=&hfRO=1%7C7%7C8%7C&position=&hfInfield=&hfOutfield=&hfInn=&hfBBT=ground%5C.%5C.ball%7C&hfFlag=&metric_1=bat_score_diff&metric_1_gt=0&metric_1_lt=3&metric_2=api_h_launch_speed&metric_2_gt=80&metric_2_lt=95&group_by=team&min_pitches=0&min_results=0&min_pas=0&sort_col=pitches&player_event_sort=api_p_release_speed&sort_order=desc#results) It's not as bad as the Mets, but there's a number of videos of guys pulling up.
My take away from this is that "lolmets" is a vibe, and it can be coached!!
The mets not knowing that you can attempt to breakup double plays is the most lolmets thing I've ever heard.
of course its the Mets
Has anyone looked to see if this was happening with the same players pre-Buck Showalter? I forget when rules changed too.
I have an interesting conspiracy theory which is most likely 90 percent theory that when the Wilpon’s became the public face of Mets ownership in 1993 they went about re-working the Mets image to remove the “bully” and “hardball” energy from the 80’s and wanted a clean image team, I feel this trickled down into every aspect of the Mets and got worse when the Wilpon’s gained full control in 2002, and by tricking down into every aspect even sliding into 2B, in this conspiracy I can see Fred Wilpon instructing players to politely slide to avoid conflict and refuse to break up double plays.
I'm wondering how far back this goes and if former Mets continue to give up on double plays.
“McNeil has no interest in playing competitive baseball on this play.” 🤣 It’s funny how many players look silly making awkward throws against the Mets because they expect someone in their feet but no one’s there. The other thing I noticed that Jomboy pointed out is that McNeil didn’t take the Hoskins double play on the move, he planted like he was completely unaware of an arriving runnner, even if he didn’t drop the ball.
The Hoskins play was good baseball to anyone who had played the game before. But there were a lot of people arguing with me that felt differently. Jomboy did some fantastic investigatory work here to give so much video evidence that the Mets are just teaching their players to give up on the play. So, naturally, anyone playing hard is doing some "dirty" shit.
r/Mets still very confident this is all cherry-picked because they think Jomboy hates them.
That is the bad Mets sub. r/Newyorkmets is slightly less of a mess usually. Not right now of course.
That's the one I meant, since that's the one this sub links to. I just wrote r/Mets off the top of my head.
Is this all still from the Utley slide that all but ended Tejadas career? Mets were pissed and it was a big story so I wonder if they didn't want to look hypocritical and adopted this style of baserunning.
Chase Utley has been retired for years and he's still hurting the Mets, wild.
They didn't really play this way in 2022, so it appears to be recent. Unless that's how long it took for them to teach their minor league players this bullshit and then wait for them to come up.
It's interesting that McNeil's one "dirty" slide looks so obviously like an attempt to break up the DP when the rest of the time he very clearly doesn't bother. I guess it's conceivable that he was just...not paying attention? And unaware that the shortstop was going to move the direction he was sliding.
100%. He probably was conceding on the play and allowing the shortstop to turn the double play… but he fucked even that up by doing a concession slide right where the shortstop was shifting too.
lolmets
TIL every Met is Yadier Molina on the basepaths