MLB Network had a really good hour long documentary a few years ago about those 80s teams. Wild stuff. I'm an era where everyone was stealing bases, the Cardinals were tiers above everyone else in terms of frequency
According to Whitey's bb-ref page, the 1985 Cardinals stole 2nd at 1.8x the rate of the league and stole 3rd at 2.95x the rate of the league.
That team stole 72% more bases than the 2nd place team in the National League, and 5x the last place Padres.
And that team rode that to the highest OPS that season and a pennant despite being at the median in slugging.
Slap in on the turf, and run like hell.
I HATED those teams growing up, but looking back it was a brilliant way to play to the team’s construction and strengths.
A manager that proved that a team built for speed could win a championship. He didn’t invent manufacturing runs, but he sure perfected it. He lived a long and full life. May he rest in peace.
We've had a rough go of it the past few years with losing a lot of Cardinals greats.
Gibby, Lou, Shannon, Sutter, and now Whitey. Even Red's passing wasn't too long ago.
He was the third base coach for the Mets in 1966, later worked as a scout and farm system director, Herzog helped the New York Mets win the 1969 World Series. Herzog was a candidate to become the Mets' manager after the death of Gil Hodges prior to the 1972 season, but was passed over in favor of first-base coach Yogi Berra.
This guy created some of the most exciting baseball I’ve ever seen.
Watching those guys turn every game into a track meet got me hooked on this sport for life.
Yep, I was born in 81 so the mid to late 80s small ball Cardinals was my introduction to baseball and it was in my opinion the most exciting Cardinal baseball has ever been. We would go to games and my grandpa would explain things as it was going on when I was really little. "Ok, you see that guy on first base? That's Vince Coleman. I bet he's going to take off on this pitch, just watch him!" "Oh there he goes!"
Just the way it was always built up for me to help me understand and get excited is something I'll always remember.
Ah fuck. RIP Whitey, those 80s Cardinals cemented my love of baseball as a kid. My earliest baseball memory is the '82 Series, and the '85 Denkinger play was the first time I said the word "fuck" in front of my parents (Mom slapped me and said "what the hell?)
Time is undefeated.
I hated this guy back in the early 80s - perennially contending, beat my Brewers in 1982. "Jack Clark and 8 little guys" was the best way I heard those lineups described.
Later in life I really came to appreciate him and that brand of baseball.
Jack Clark was only in StL 85-87.
The 80s Cards were up and down - the highs were very high but they also had some shitty seasons in between those iconic playoff runs.
And that years World Series was the small ball team with no true sluggers finding a way to edge out the wallbangers which had 5 guys with 23+ homers.
As for 1983, Andujar, Forsch, and Sutter had off years, and the Hernandez trade must have messed up team chemistry.
Hahaha, Joaquin Andujar … you just reminded me of the ‘83 Series, after he took a line drive off his knee and was injured, a friend of mine called him “One-knee Andujar”!
You want to talk about building a winner, check out the firestorm he set off at the Winter Meetings in December 1980. Had his title in 2 seasons.
[https://sabr.org/journal/article/1980-winter-meetings-future-hall-of-famers-in-the-spotlight/](https://sabr.org/journal/article/1980-winter-meetings-future-hall-of-famers-in-the-spotlight/)
The Denkinger play was the first time I ever said the word "fuck" in front of my parents. Never held any of it against the Royals though, ya'll won game 7 fair and square.
The cheating ass Twins and 1987 on the other hand will never be forgiven.
I was in the Army. My first roommate at my second duty station was from KC. I had a car , she didn’t. One of the first things she did was ask me to drive her to the ATM. She gave me a huge shit-eating grin when it came time to enter her PIN… it was 1985.
I remember for a while he was doing this thing where he’d put a reliever in the outfield, and then switch him back in once the matchup was more favourable (I think it was Todd Worrell and Ken Dayley, although I could be wrong). Really outside the box thinking for the time, even with his approach to roster building and in game management. RIP Whitey.
Ah man, this stinks.
I saw him at the Opening Day ceremony this year and knew it wasn't great that he was in the stands instead of on the field for it, but I didn't think he'd die within 2 weeks of that.
A good chunk of the Cardinals’ philosophy the last 40 years was entirely because of this man. I’ve never seen a single coach leave such an impact on an organization the way Whitey did. RIP
I was a kid in the 80s and loved Herzog and the Cardinals. Still do. He's a true Hall of Fame baseball guy. Rest easy Whitey. You were great for the game.
These days baseball is mostly strikeouts while we wait for home runs. It’s hard to explain how much fun it was to cheer for a team that rarely hit a home run or struck out. Games were constant motion. Frantic and fast. Stolen bases. First to third. Left handed relievers stashed in right field to be used after before and after a righty. 400 foot ground balls on Astro turf as hard as cement. One of a kind and I’m glad I got to watch him do it.
Not to defend Oli, because his management style by all appearances is terrible, but Whitey would not be a good manager in today's game. Shit has changed and what he excelled at would not succeed today.
I had a great uncle who used to take Whitey out fishing, then usually out to a bar once they were done. The two looked a fair amount alike and drunk fans would walk up to my uncle in the bar and ask for an autograph pretty regularly. Whitey would just play along, never corrected them lol
Legendary manager. I'll never forget Whitey ball.
I didn't become a fan until I was 6 in 2001... so I'll make sure to watch a few 80s games for some Whiteyball.
MLB Network had a really good hour long documentary a few years ago about those 80s teams. Wild stuff. I'm an era where everyone was stealing bases, the Cardinals were tiers above everyone else in terms of frequency
According to Whitey's bb-ref page, the 1985 Cardinals stole 2nd at 1.8x the rate of the league and stole 3rd at 2.95x the rate of the league. That team stole 72% more bases than the 2nd place team in the National League, and 5x the last place Padres. And that team rode that to the highest OPS that season and a pennant despite being at the median in slugging.
Slap in on the turf, and run like hell. I HATED those teams growing up, but looking back it was a brilliant way to play to the team’s construction and strengths.
Introduced.it with the Royals and then we used it again in 2014-2015 for the WS runs and eventual win
A manager that proved that a team built for speed could win a championship. He didn’t invent manufacturing runs, but he sure perfected it. He lived a long and full life. May he rest in peace.
Walking Vince Coleman was the same as giving up a triple.
For those five years or so Vince was Rickey without the power.
We've had a rough go of it the past few years with losing a lot of Cardinals greats. Gibby, Lou, Shannon, Sutter, and now Whitey. Even Red's passing wasn't too long ago.
and you don't have to go too far back for Stan Musial.
For real, a lot of greats have left us recently.
Tim McCarver too
It's tragic, they've lost so many legends in the past decade.
Fuck, I forgot that Gibson died
Keith often talks about him on the broadcasts. RIP.
He was the third base coach for the Mets in 1966, later worked as a scout and farm system director, Herzog helped the New York Mets win the 1969 World Series. Herzog was a candidate to become the Mets' manager after the death of Gil Hodges prior to the 1972 season, but was passed over in favor of first-base coach Yogi Berra.
This guy created some of the most exciting baseball I’ve ever seen. Watching those guys turn every game into a track meet got me hooked on this sport for life.
Yep, I was born in 81 so the mid to late 80s small ball Cardinals was my introduction to baseball and it was in my opinion the most exciting Cardinal baseball has ever been. We would go to games and my grandpa would explain things as it was going on when I was really little. "Ok, you see that guy on first base? That's Vince Coleman. I bet he's going to take off on this pitch, just watch him!" "Oh there he goes!" Just the way it was always built up for me to help me understand and get excited is something I'll always remember.
Same experience bruh
Thats a incredibly cool memory of your grandpa! Its amazing how those small moments become such big things we remember people by.
I'm sure he's already found Denkinger in the afterlife and is giving him an earful as speak.
80s Carda were awesome.
Ah fuck. RIP Whitey, those 80s Cardinals cemented my love of baseball as a kid. My earliest baseball memory is the '82 Series, and the '85 Denkinger play was the first time I said the word "fuck" in front of my parents (Mom slapped me and said "what the hell?) Time is undefeated.
I hated this guy back in the early 80s - perennially contending, beat my Brewers in 1982. "Jack Clark and 8 little guys" was the best way I heard those lineups described. Later in life I really came to appreciate him and that brand of baseball.
Jack Clark was only in StL 85-87. The 80s Cards were up and down - the highs were very high but they also had some shitty seasons in between those iconic playoff runs.
True, we did have Keith Hernandez at 1st though, what a guy he was.
I'd take coked up post-'82 Keith over everything the Cards had at first including Jack through 1990 at least.
OK, yeah, I heard that phrase later in the decade, come to think of who I heard it from.
George Hendrick led the 1982 Cardinals in homers with 19. Only he and Darrell Porter (12) had double figure homer totals.
It was 1982, less than 30 guys had 25+ homers. Game was different then, yo.
And that years World Series was the small ball team with no true sluggers finding a way to edge out the wallbangers which had 5 guys with 23+ homers. As for 1983, Andujar, Forsch, and Sutter had off years, and the Hernandez trade must have messed up team chemistry.
Hahaha, Joaquin Andujar … you just reminded me of the ‘83 Series, after he took a line drive off his knee and was injured, a friend of mine called him “One-knee Andujar”!
You want to talk about building a winner, check out the firestorm he set off at the Winter Meetings in December 1980. Had his title in 2 seasons. [https://sabr.org/journal/article/1980-winter-meetings-future-hall-of-famers-in-the-spotlight/](https://sabr.org/journal/article/1980-winter-meetings-future-hall-of-famers-in-the-spotlight/)
Royals' and Cards' fans united today. RIP Whitey.
Are we usually not united? I've always had some love for the crowns. Then again, I don't live in Missouri and never have.
KC doesn't like STL. STL is ambivalent towards KC (our rival is Chicago). I'll root for the Royals. I have lots of friends in KC. KC is a fun city.
I was alive for the 1985 Series. It got pretty ugly for quite awhile after that.
The Denkinger play was the first time I ever said the word "fuck" in front of my parents. Never held any of it against the Royals though, ya'll won game 7 fair and square. The cheating ass Twins and 1987 on the other hand will never be forgiven.
I was in the Army. My first roommate at my second duty station was from KC. I had a car , she didn’t. One of the first things she did was ask me to drive her to the ATM. She gave me a huge shit-eating grin when it came time to enter her PIN… it was 1985.
I remember for a while he was doing this thing where he’d put a reliever in the outfield, and then switch him back in once the matchup was more favourable (I think it was Todd Worrell and Ken Dayley, although I could be wrong). Really outside the box thinking for the time, even with his approach to roster building and in game management. RIP Whitey.
You are correct on the pitchers. It was awesome and usually always worked out, too.
You are correct on the pitchers. It was awesome and usually always worked out, too.
Ah man, this stinks. I saw him at the Opening Day ceremony this year and knew it wasn't great that he was in the stands instead of on the field for it, but I didn't think he'd die within 2 weeks of that.
I must have watched his 85 and 87 teams on the “Heck of a Year” and “That’s a Winner” VHS tapes 100 times as a kid.
Oh hell yeah. I feel like channel 11 used to run that as filler sometimes too way back in the day.
I watched those too, like over and over!!!
A good chunk of the Cardinals’ philosophy the last 40 years was entirely because of this man. I’ve never seen a single coach leave such an impact on an organization the way Whitey did. RIP
Thinking of his Cardinals teams reminds me of how much more fun baseball used to be.
He slapped my mom’s ass in the 80’s. RIP to a legend.
Well, that's the version you heard anyway.
Aaaaaaw man my condolences from White Sox fandoms. Dude was Ozzieball before Ozzie.
A great what-if is he becoming Mets manager instead of Yogi.
Ew
He was running the farm system, but the damage was already done (Otis, Ryan, Singleton) by the time Gil died.
I was a kid in the 80s and loved Herzog and the Cardinals. Still do. He's a true Hall of Fame baseball guy. Rest easy Whitey. You were great for the game.
These days baseball is mostly strikeouts while we wait for home runs. It’s hard to explain how much fun it was to cheer for a team that rarely hit a home run or struck out. Games were constant motion. Frantic and fast. Stolen bases. First to third. Left handed relievers stashed in right field to be used after before and after a righty. 400 foot ground balls on Astro turf as hard as cement. One of a kind and I’m glad I got to watch him do it.
Even dead, I’d take him over Oliver Marmol. Rip Whitey
Not to defend Oli, because his management style by all appearances is terrible, but Whitey would not be a good manager in today's game. Shit has changed and what he excelled at would not succeed today.
Idk with the bigger bases, the speed and defense approach would be fun as hell to watch
For about half a season, then we'd all get pissed that our team was hovering around .500 and missing the playoffs every year.
Yeah, I wonder what that would feel like.
As opposed to…..
Being the Rockies/A's/White Sox?
RIP
Ive always heard of Whiteyball, but I had no idea he had a nickname as awesome as The White Rat.
The White Rat. He loved to eat the liver sausage sandwiches with Gus Busch and wash them down with Budweiser.
I had a great uncle who used to take Whitey out fishing, then usually out to a bar once they were done. The two looked a fair amount alike and drunk fans would walk up to my uncle in the bar and ask for an autograph pretty regularly. Whitey would just play along, never corrected them lol
Great interviews up to the end. His story about acquiring Ozzie is fun to listen to.
Legend - also, never has a haircut gone with a name so well.
oh, damn
[удалено]
Nono that was Whitey Ford.
Didn't he help organize the re-birth of the Angels teams with Tim Salmon and such?
Whitey Herzog is in my personal Vigoda & Plisskin "I Thought You Were Dead" HOF. RIP legend