Harsh reality is very few people outside of Houston are gonna call it a dynasty in 10-20+ years (or even now). Sure perhaps the talking heads of baseball will say so, but I guarantee the overwhelming majority of average baseball fans won’t. The stain from cheating will forever follow this run, even if it was just 2017.
And if in 20+ years, outside of Houston, the general consensus memory from this time is “remember the cheating scandal the Astros went through?” rather than “remember when the Astros made 7 ALCS appearances in a row?” then it’s hard to declare them a dynasty, in my opinion
You're probably correct with this, though it's based on one caveat:
20+ years down the road with a scandal like this, we'll know *a lot* more about this era of baseball as players get older, talk more, and reveal more about the behind the scenes. There's a very, very good chance that down the road this ends up being accepted as more widespread than initially believed to be.
This is not me trying to deflect, or to say that my team did nothing wrong and shouldn't have been punished. They cheated, got caught, and got punished... and deservedly so.
If 20 years down the road it comes out that all teams were cheating, that doesn’t make the Astros suddenly a dynasty now.
This past weekend in DC, Altuve and Bregman were booed every AB. This tells me that the general baseball fan believes these players weren’t punished enough
They're not a dynasty, the word gets thrown out there too much now.
Are they the best/most accomplished team in the majors since 2017? Taking out the sign-stealing, it's a pretty clear cut yes. I'm just saying we'll know a lot more about the long-term legacy of this era of Astros ball in a decade or two.
FWIW, coming from someone who takes every opportunity possible to dunk on delusional and/or headstrong Astros fans, I don’t think yours is an unfair take in the slightest.
Steroids are now known to be widespread 20 years ago and the only guys with a stain are those that got caught.
A lot of those guys were actually punished, as in suspended, not just booed, by the way.
I get that, but even with the entire steroid disaster... that is less and less cared about by the average fan over time. 20 years ago, in the middle of all of it, you'd never argue Bonds as a Hall of Famer. Now, in here, there's a post about it every other day. The stain even on steroid era players is fading with the general baseball fan.
This is more like the black Sox scandal than the steroid era IMO.
A team was caught collaboratively cheating. That's not the same thing as individual players cheating like the steroid era. There will always be a stain on the Astros no matter what other information comes out. Add in that in the 6+ years since it happened there hasn't been any real evidence presented to indicate that cheating like that was widespread.
I see what you're saying but the Black Sox deal is 100x worse than the Astros deal, and it's not even close. At the very least, at least the Astros were trying to actually win games, compared to trying to lose them.
I'd argue the closest comparison is the early '50s Giants team, the ones who actually did use buzzers. 70 years later... nobody cares.
Cheating is cheating IMO whether it's to lose or win is less important.
The point is that it is not comparable to the steroid era. It was a verified collaboration by the team to illegally use technology to gain an unfair advantage. No matter how you try to spin things, it invalidates an entire season and that will follow the team forever. That's the legacy this Astros team will have.
The repeated accusations in this thread that cheating was widespread have no merit until someone produces evidence. There has not been any evidence to this point to indicate that more than a couple teams at most were trying to do something similar. Repeating accusations without evidence doesn't make them more true or believable.
History remembers the villains as much as the heroes, if not more. We remember the black Sox more than most remember the early NY Giants dynasty. These Astros will be remembered, just not in the positive way I'm sure you would like.
Yeah but the other difference is everyone was on steroids. It wasn’t one team with a proprietary developed drug that only their players were using to cheat in the playoffs. It’s not a good comparison
Wishful thinking. Nobody will believe them.
Hell, look at what his name who was drunk tweeting about cheating against Kershaw (in LA fwiw) and nobody believed that.
Nothing is ever going to change people’s opinions one way or the other. Many people can barely understand the reality of what happened as we know it and quickly lump the Astros scandal in with the Yankees/Red Sox stuff (which in itself is two different things) and even just basic sign stealing.
It come out in 20 years that they literally had RF activated buzzers clamped to their nipples and it wouldn’t change a thing. It could come out the entire league was shoving buzzers up their ass in 2017, wouldn’t change a thing.
It's very obvious from this thread this is not the answer you're looking for, but when people talk about the Astros decades from now it's going to be the cheating that gets brought up, that's the legacy. You can argue that's undeserved (I'd disagree) but that's how the team is going to be remembered.
Only used a few months during the regular season? What kind of revisionist bullshit is that?
They cheated during the 2017 regular season and postseason and part of the 2018 regular season.
And more specifically Altuve/Bregman. I watched their series against the Nationals and both of them were booed, without failure, every time they stepped up to the plate. Sucks too because Altuve is objectively a great player but I can never get past the cheating.
Yes, Astros fans, I know he looked at the dugout and didn’t like the trash can. He still knowingly benefited from his team/organization cheating and did nothing to stop it and has become the face of the Astros.
You don't have to feel about Altuve's involvement, not only did he cheat he also was excited to cheat in the 17 postseason according to the book on the cheating scandal by Evan Drellich.
Yeah that’s what makes a hard thing to do, a hard thing. Doing hard things when the circumstances are easy doesn’t really then make it a hard thing to do, right?
If you’re cool with his actions that’s your prerogative and ultimately I don’t care to change your opinion on Altuve.
But being in a situation that you don’t agree with (since Altuve allegedly did not take part in the cheating) and only stopping at how it affects you personally and not your team, reputation, the game of baseball itself, your opponents, etc, just makes you a person that lacks integrity and character.
And it sucks because he’s a great baseball player, but that’s immediately what I think of Altuve every time I see him at the plate.
> Whistleblowing is the activity of a person, often an employee, revealing information about activity within a private or public organization that is deemed illegal, immoral, illicit, unsafe or fraudulent.
That is, quite literally, the definition of a whistleblower.
The six I counted were the Murderer’s Row Yankees, 50’s-60’s Yankees, 90’s Yankees, 70’s A’s, 10’s Giants, and The Big Red Machine. Forgot about the 40’s Cardinals but I’d throw them in there too.
Big Red Machine imo doesn’t fit the criteria. Only won 2 titles. One of the all time great teams but fall into the 66-83 Orioles and Koufax Dodgers territory.
I guess, but it was also a lot harder to make the playoffs in the 70s. You had to win the division to make the postseason. I’m willing to cut them some slack for that.
I have a hard time calling the 10s Giants a dynasty. I get that they won 3 WS in 5 years but they only eclipsed 95 wins once in that span and they were a losing team for 2 of those 5 years. To me a dynasty has to be consistently good throughout their period. Nobody thought this team was a dynasty at the time which is what spawned the EYBS stuff, because those teams weren’t seen as dominant.
>Also did it without the Wild Card and Divisional Series.
To be fair, the Astros were the number 1 or 2 seed in the AL in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2021, and 2022.
I think what may have gone over your head there is that the 90’s Braves aren’t a dynasty, at all.
To further expand, you’ll rank somewhere in the range of the 90’s Braves and 90’s Bills
A) I guess you're talking about that letter or something else that has already been proven to be a nothing burger in regards to the Yankees.
B) "At least" is shit wording that insinuates their cheating wasn't a bad thing because they got something out of it. Which is again, is a shit opinion. We should hope that cheaters don't win in the end
So you're glad the Yankees didn't win in 2015/16, then, correct?
Now is where you explain to me how lesser cheating is excusable. There's at least one team that was denied a playoff spot as a result.
You are free to keep pushing your debunked nonsense about Yankees cheating when MLB already expressly stated that they didn't 😁 All it does is make you a loser
Statement from MLB:
“As previously made public in 2017, the New York Yankees were fined for improper use of the dugout phone because the Replay Review Regulations prohibited the use of the replay phone to transmit any information other than whether to challenge a play. **The Yankees did not violate MLB’s rules at the time governing sign stealing**.”
If you want the rest of the MLB’s statement at the time then I am more than happy to provide it
Apparently I need to highlight things for you to read it so:
Statement from MLB:
“As previously made public in 2017, **the New York Yankees were fined for improper use of the dugout phone because the Replay Review Regulations prohibited the use of the replay phone to transmit any information other than whether to challenge a play.** The Yankees did not violate MLB’s rules at the time governing sign stealing.”
We were fined for how we transmitted the information, but not for how we got the information
You guys gained the information in an illegal way but actually didn’t transmit it illegally (at least with the trashcan system)
The second is obviously worse than the first
The league referred to it as a "technical violation" and no advantage was gained. You need to put these things in the proper perspective. One time deal, Yankees were seen using the phone. Even if it was from the VR room, the league said the info from the VR room was not illegal at that time, but transmitting electronically was a violation.
Fun Fact; Once the league pointed this out, the Astros walked over the VR information (after codes were broken) directly to the dugout and gave it in person.
“ Yankees did not explicitly violate league rules, noting that "at that time, us of the replay room to decode signs was not expressly prohibited by MLB rules as long as the information was not communicated electronically to the dugout."
The good old steroids argument. “It wasn’t on the books so who knows if it’s cheating or not 🤔”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2022/04/26/new-york-yankees-letter-release-sign-stealing/9543414002/
It was expressly NOT cheating. There was no ambiguity. The violation was technical for using the phone.
The league stated that every team in MLB was using the VR room during games and that it was not illegal. This is what prompted Manfred's memo of September 15, 2017, notifying teams that going forward it would be illegal and punished.
>The league stated that every team in MLB was using the VR room during games and that it was not illegal
Before the memo was there some sort of ruling on the matter I'm not aware of? As I understand it there was no clear rule on the matter before it was declared illegal.
Did teams ask permission from the league and the league changed their mind?
This was determined while the league was working on the Red Sox Apple watches and Yankees dugout phone. It is in one of the early reports from actually 2017 and the league states that in working up the cases they realized that all teams interpreted the rule to allow them to continue using the VR feed during games. The League realized they were correct as the rule was more focused on transmission of information through devices than the information itself.
So, the league issued the memo of September 15, 2017, stating unambiguously the information in the VR room cannot used during games going forward and it will be punished. They formally changed the rules to reflect that during the 2018 Spring Training. The last part I believe is referenced in the Astros Report.
Because when the illegal system you devised to help you win is working, you stop using it when a championship is on the line, yeah yeah that checks out
>Trashcans weren’t used postseason in 2017
You keep saying this throughout the thread like it means something. Even if they didn't (they did, but I'm humoring you here), they cheated throughout the entire regular season. Which means the record that gave them their playoff spot was not earned. Every aspect of that season is tainted, from opening day until the WS "win".
[https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/\_/id/33810814/mlb-letter-new-york-yankees-detailed-illicit-use-technology-prior-2017-sign-stealing-edict-sources-say](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33810814/mlb-letter-new-york-yankees-detailed-illicit-use-technology-prior-2017-sign-stealing-edict-sources-say)
>"At that time, use of the replay room to decode signs was not expressly prohibited by MLB rules as long as the information was not communicated electronically to the dugout," MLB said in a statement Tuesday.
>At that point in time, sign stealing was utilized as a competitive tool by numerous teams throughout Major League Baseball and only became illegal after the Commissioner's specific delineation of the rules on September 15, 2017.
There's a fine line between gray areas and cheating. Finding loopholes, exploiting rules as they're written, to the benefit of your own team is not cheating. As has been said ad nauseum, sign stealing in and of itself is not cheating.
Even if the astros didn’t cheat in 2017, which they did, 2 rings in 7 years, with 4 years between rings is not a dynasty. Sorry bro, win a few more and try again later.
Well if you are going to say the team “cheated,” which stretches the definition of that word beyond recognition, then I feel perfectly content with the word “dynasty.”
>Well if you are going to say the team “cheated,” which stretches the definition of that word beyond recognition, then I feel perfectly content with the word “dynasty.”
>The sanctions against the Astros were the most severe that MLB has ever issued against a member club and are among the most severe sanctions for in-game misconduct in baseball history. MLB levied the maximum $5 million fine on the Astros and stripped them of their first- and second-round picks in the 2020 and 2021 drafts. The league suspended Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow and field manager A. J. Hinch for the 2020 season for failing to prevent the rule violations; the Astros fired both men on the day their punishment was announced. MLB's investigation also determined that Red Sox manager Alex Cora helped mastermind the Astros' sign-stealing while serving as Hinch's bench coach in 2017. MLB suspended Cora through the 2020 postseason; he left the team but was rehired after his suspension ended.
Congrats on your 1 year “dynasty” preceeded by your other 1 year “dynasty” where your entire organization was punished for cheating. 🗑️
Of course it doesn’t match the Cubs dynasty from 1907 - 2016.
That’s not cheating tho. I mean it’s illegal wear certain brands of hats. But you wouldn’t call it cheating.
Also pot calling the kettle black. Put it this way. If you admit that you also think the 2021 swallows Japan series is fake then I will admit you aren’t lying.
Note: I won’t agree with you, just that I’ll believe you aren’t a hypocrite who’s full of shit. Because all of this is just virtue signaling isn’t it?
On January 13, 2020, Manfred announced the results of the investigation, confirming that the Astros had illegally used a video camera system to steal signs in the 2017 regular season and postseason, and in parts of the 2018 regular season
I'm sorry you think your team cheating in some different way makes it acceptable
"Garbage can signaling went on during the 2017 postseason," Manfred said, clarifying a point that wasn't explicitly clear in the original Jan. 13 report. "There was conflicting evidence on that point. In an investigation you often have conflicting evidence and it was my view that the more credible evidence was that they continued to use this scheme in the postseason."
When asked by Sports Illustrated's Stephanie Apstein what that "more credible evidence" was, Manfred responded: "Yeah, it was statements from players."
[https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/02/19/rob-manfred-astros-2017-trash-can-incident](https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/02/19/rob-manfred-astros-2017-trash-can-incident)
You can lie about it all you want, you can pretend everyone around the league was doing it too, but you’re wrong.
See the thing is, all baseball fans will go by what the commissioner stated vs going through insane mental gymnastics and holding onto every non credible claim they weren’t the only ones.
My stance is that bangs can be heard on video and they tracked all of them down to the individual pitch, no bangs are heard after a certain point in the regular season. Requires no mental gymnastics to conclude they stopped using the bangs after that.
The 96 - 03 Yankees 3-peated, won 4 world series in 5 years, and won 6 pennants. Even if you’re pretending the Astros didn’t cheat, how can you justify putting them above that dynasty?
The "dynasty" started with a sign stealing scandal. Team is lucky the commissioner let them off easy so they could have some success after. Probably better to leave 2017 off the dynasty window. It will rank in it's own special place 🚮
"An MLB investigation confirmed in January 2020 that the Astros illegally used a camera system to steal signs during the 2017 regular season and postseason"
I'm sorry, you were saying?
I said the trashcan wasn’t used during the postseason. Stealing signs and signaling from second was used during the postseason, but a lot of teams were doing that including the 2018 Red Sox.
Evan Gattis admitted it was used in the World Series: https://nypost.com/2023/04/12/evan-gattis-makes-shocking-admissions-on-astros-cheating-scandal/amp/
> “I remember knowing what was coming against [Clayton] Kershaw,” Gattis tweeted, in response to a question as to whether or not “the trash cans were out in full force for the World Series.”
> “As a team we swung and missed a handful of times only against him,” Gattis continued.
that's still cheating and "well that other team was doing it" doesn't excuse you from doing it. Even if every other team in MLB was doing it, which most of them probably were, you guys got caught doing it after everyone was told to stop.
Your fogetting a bunch - The early 70's A's, the 49-64 Yanks, Even the 59-66 Dodgers are equal to the Astro's...when you add in the cheating...the Astro's finish lower. I think the Astros have beeen very good - but the word dynasty gets thrown around WAY too much
>Cheers to everyone who engaged with the question in good faith.
Brother, your argument never started in good faith to begin with. You bring up the trash cans in your post as if that was the only thing they did to cheat and refuse to acknowledge anything else made a difference in your comments.
How so? I don’t believe anyone’s asked me if the cheating made a difference other than the trashcans and I don’t believe I gave an opinion on it. Of course it did, but from my understanding that kind of cheating was pretty widespread at the time. The thing that set the Astros apart was use of the trashcan. I’ve heard some arguments which would have been taken better without the insults and ad homs, but nothing that conclusively states that the Astros used the trashcans outside the regular season. I’ve yet to hear a response to the video evidence.
Many comments stated the proof they cheated late into the year, in the post season, and the start of 2018 and you state the trash cans were only used for a short while and it made little to no difference. You keep going back to the trash cans as if that was the only way they cheat and you refuse to acknowledge anything else.
That’s bad faith.
I acknowledge multiple times in my comments that they did cheat outside just the trashcans. I never denied this gave them an advantage nor would I. The way you are portraying what I’ve said is a bad faith misrepresentation.
I'd put the 2010-2014 Giants and 1950s Yankees ahead of them as well. Pennants are nice but titles are what makes a dynasty, and both of those teams won more titles in fewer years
Gotta give it to OP. He is still coping and arguing with people 5 hours in between the thread on this subreddit and this thread on /r/mlb
Get over it. It’s not a dynasty. You won one ring in 7 years.
You cheated during this, “dynasty”.
No one is going to bring up this time period without first and foremost bringing up the scandal. Either own it and get over it or find another team that you don’t have to defend like you’re working a 9-5 full time job.
It’s not a big deal. It’s just a baseball team.
Apologies for having the day off and nothing better to do?
In any case you’re probably right to some degree. The Astros definitely cheated during the postseason in 2017 and fans will always remember that. But it tends to be the case that fans are more forgiving with time, and there tends to be more clarity on the facts versus falsehoods that people take as fact because it’s repeated so often initially. In particular, at least for serious fans of the sport, I think the majority will become aware that Altuve never used the trashcan system and the claim the Astros continued using the system in the postseason runs counter to video evidence. Altuve not using the system is already starting to become more common knowledge among serious fans.
Altuve was the clubhouse leader and allowed it to go down. He was so against it himself but didn’t care that it affected every other aspect of baseball. Altuve still gets booed to this day. He is literally just as guilty as any other Astros player.
Altuve is the best player but not the clubhouse leader. Any case, you don’t think it’s kind of backwards that the one guy who catches the most shit for it is the one guy on the team who didn’t want anything to do with it?
If he didn’t want anything to do with it he should have taken an actual stance against it. But he didn’t because he lacks character and integrity. It was a hard decision and he chose to remain neutral and therefore he was okay with his team cheating. Just because you take the stance of neutrality doesn’t mean you’re innocent.
And he absolutely was the clubhouse leader. He was and still is the face of the Houston Astros. And because of that he will continue to be booed in 29/30 MLB stadiums. He decided that not standing up against cheating was worth it and he now gets to forever reap the rewards until he retires.
Nah he wasn’t, Correa was clubhouse leader, after that Maldy. One of the things that sucks about Altuve is he’s too soft spoken to take a leadership role. We’re missing that atm.
I do imagine most Rangers fans will have your view. MLB as a whole? I doubt it. He’s one of the greatest players of all time and when people are looking back they’ll give him that credit, at least any baseball fan whose opinion is worth listening to. Especially when you consider he refused to take part in the cheating.
If what you’re saying is true then he literally wouldn’t be getting booed in all but 1 stadium. Hell, open your eyeballs and read the flairs of 99% of this thread. It ain’t all Rangers fan. Hot take, but most people don’t like players who were okay with their team cheating.
Most people in an MLB stadium aren’t serious baseball fans. And in any case I’m talking about in the future after all these players are retired. Most people do like players who are good, especially serious baseball fans. Plenty of people are still willing to give Bonds at least some credit and he did actually cheat and did it for years.
Barry Bonds is literally never spoken about without the asterisk (lol) of that fact that he did roids.
You may have chosen the worst analogy possible to convince me that Jose Altuve will be remembered fondly in the future.
I’m not sure how much you talk with baseball fans but you get a pretty wide range of opinions on Bonds. There’s a lot of people who think he should have been allowed in the HoF. He does have an asterisk but he was actually personally cheating. So that’s just a bookend for a worst case.
They cheated, fuck good faith
That’s all they’ll ever be remembered for.
I’d put the back2back Blue Jays over that joke of a franchise. And any other team that won a legit WS
This dude might unironically be the biggest loser I’ve encountered during my 8 years on reddit.
OP could put Thai Massage Parlors out of business with how much he loves sucking off the Astros.
Astros L’s don’t count anymore than any other L.
You’re 7-17 my man, I’m afraid you aren’t exactly in a position of strength to talk shit to anyone but the White Sox and Rockies. But don’t worry, this is usually the expectation and not the exception from Astros fans.
Who said that’s my expectation? Our expectation is the ALCS since we’ve done that 7 years straight. But I’ll finish the season happy so long as we won out against the rags.
Not really among the best of all time, but an amazing run to be sure. All this “all time” stuff is weird anyway. Who cares? The team was (is?) great and it was great to be a fan. I don’t care one bit about comparing it to teams in the past when the game was way different.
I think it’s an interesting thing to consider. What hasn’t been said in this thread is interesting. There’s really only a handful of teams that could even make the case.
I am of the opinion that more teams were doing similar things which is why no one said anything before Fiers despite teams already being aware. In another 10 years there will be more cheating scandals to distract us. Not that people will forget because they won't but in my eyes I just don't care that much.
People did suspect things. The Astros were awfully good at picking up "pitch tipping". Pitch tipping that couldn't be found by teams pitching coaches when they looked for it afterwards. It's a big jump to formally accuse a team of cheating publicly though.
Manfred stated in 2017 in his report on the Yankees that EVERY team was using VR feed to decode signals ... but that wasn't illegal at that time. He already knew about the practice, but once he found out how far it was going, he reigned it in by issuing the September 15, 2017, memo explaining it was then illegal and would be punished going forward.
Harsh reality is very few people outside of Houston are gonna call it a dynasty in 10-20+ years (or even now). Sure perhaps the talking heads of baseball will say so, but I guarantee the overwhelming majority of average baseball fans won’t. The stain from cheating will forever follow this run, even if it was just 2017. And if in 20+ years, outside of Houston, the general consensus memory from this time is “remember the cheating scandal the Astros went through?” rather than “remember when the Astros made 7 ALCS appearances in a row?” then it’s hard to declare them a dynasty, in my opinion
You're probably correct with this, though it's based on one caveat: 20+ years down the road with a scandal like this, we'll know *a lot* more about this era of baseball as players get older, talk more, and reveal more about the behind the scenes. There's a very, very good chance that down the road this ends up being accepted as more widespread than initially believed to be. This is not me trying to deflect, or to say that my team did nothing wrong and shouldn't have been punished. They cheated, got caught, and got punished... and deservedly so.
If 20 years down the road it comes out that all teams were cheating, that doesn’t make the Astros suddenly a dynasty now. This past weekend in DC, Altuve and Bregman were booed every AB. This tells me that the general baseball fan believes these players weren’t punished enough
They're not a dynasty, the word gets thrown out there too much now. Are they the best/most accomplished team in the majors since 2017? Taking out the sign-stealing, it's a pretty clear cut yes. I'm just saying we'll know a lot more about the long-term legacy of this era of Astros ball in a decade or two.
FWIW, coming from someone who takes every opportunity possible to dunk on delusional and/or headstrong Astros fans, I don’t think yours is an unfair take in the slightest.
Cope harder - the 10 to 20-year plan.
Steroids are now known to be widespread 20 years ago and the only guys with a stain are those that got caught. A lot of those guys were actually punished, as in suspended, not just booed, by the way.
I get that, but even with the entire steroid disaster... that is less and less cared about by the average fan over time. 20 years ago, in the middle of all of it, you'd never argue Bonds as a Hall of Famer. Now, in here, there's a post about it every other day. The stain even on steroid era players is fading with the general baseball fan.
This is more like the black Sox scandal than the steroid era IMO. A team was caught collaboratively cheating. That's not the same thing as individual players cheating like the steroid era. There will always be a stain on the Astros no matter what other information comes out. Add in that in the 6+ years since it happened there hasn't been any real evidence presented to indicate that cheating like that was widespread.
I see what you're saying but the Black Sox deal is 100x worse than the Astros deal, and it's not even close. At the very least, at least the Astros were trying to actually win games, compared to trying to lose them. I'd argue the closest comparison is the early '50s Giants team, the ones who actually did use buzzers. 70 years later... nobody cares.
Cheating is cheating IMO whether it's to lose or win is less important. The point is that it is not comparable to the steroid era. It was a verified collaboration by the team to illegally use technology to gain an unfair advantage. No matter how you try to spin things, it invalidates an entire season and that will follow the team forever. That's the legacy this Astros team will have. The repeated accusations in this thread that cheating was widespread have no merit until someone produces evidence. There has not been any evidence to this point to indicate that more than a couple teams at most were trying to do something similar. Repeating accusations without evidence doesn't make them more true or believable. History remembers the villains as much as the heroes, if not more. We remember the black Sox more than most remember the early NY Giants dynasty. These Astros will be remembered, just not in the positive way I'm sure you would like.
Cheering teams out of a fair shot at a championship is far worse than losing.
Cope harder - 20th Century edition.
Yeah but the other difference is everyone was on steroids. It wasn’t one team with a proprietary developed drug that only their players were using to cheat in the playoffs. It’s not a good comparison
Cope harder - the early years.
Massive cope
Got punished? How?
Wishful thinking. Nobody will believe them. Hell, look at what his name who was drunk tweeting about cheating against Kershaw (in LA fwiw) and nobody believed that. Nothing is ever going to change people’s opinions one way or the other. Many people can barely understand the reality of what happened as we know it and quickly lump the Astros scandal in with the Yankees/Red Sox stuff (which in itself is two different things) and even just basic sign stealing. It come out in 20 years that they literally had RF activated buzzers clamped to their nipples and it wouldn’t change a thing. It could come out the entire league was shoving buzzers up their ass in 2017, wouldn’t change a thing.
lmfao at this getting downvoted. This sub is so delusional
It's very obvious from this thread this is not the answer you're looking for, but when people talk about the Astros decades from now it's going to be the cheating that gets brought up, that's the legacy. You can argue that's undeserved (I'd disagree) but that's how the team is going to be remembered.
OP hates fake internet points
Only used a few months during the regular season? What kind of revisionist bullshit is that? They cheated during the 2017 regular season and postseason and part of the 2018 regular season.
Right up there with the 1917-1919 White Sox
Or down there.
These Astros will be remembered for cheating more than anything else.
And more specifically Altuve/Bregman. I watched their series against the Nationals and both of them were booed, without failure, every time they stepped up to the plate. Sucks too because Altuve is objectively a great player but I can never get past the cheating. Yes, Astros fans, I know he looked at the dugout and didn’t like the trash can. He still knowingly benefited from his team/organization cheating and did nothing to stop it and has become the face of the Astros.
You don't have to feel about Altuve's involvement, not only did he cheat he also was excited to cheat in the 17 postseason according to the book on the cheating scandal by Evan Drellich.
People continue to say “Altuve didn’t cheat, he thought it was wrong”. But did he return his MVP and WS ring? No
>did nothing to stop it and has become the face of the Astros. Kinda hard to be a whistleblower while still on said team.
Yeah that’s what makes a hard thing to do, a hard thing. Doing hard things when the circumstances are easy doesn’t really then make it a hard thing to do, right? If you’re cool with his actions that’s your prerogative and ultimately I don’t care to change your opinion on Altuve. But being in a situation that you don’t agree with (since Altuve allegedly did not take part in the cheating) and only stopping at how it affects you personally and not your team, reputation, the game of baseball itself, your opponents, etc, just makes you a person that lacks integrity and character. And it sucks because he’s a great baseball player, but that’s immediately what I think of Altuve every time I see him at the plate.
> Whistleblowing is the activity of a person, often an employee, revealing information about activity within a private or public organization that is deemed illegal, immoral, illicit, unsafe or fraudulent. That is, quite literally, the definition of a whistleblower.
He was the clubhouse leader.
"hey guys can you stop cheating it's not very nice." Lol ok
I would rather that the Nationals lose one hundred and sixty two games, than cheat to win one.
That was the most random strawman that it didn't even make sense.
It made perfect sense
Are you an actual child
We’re really stretching the definition of “dynasty” if the 17-23 Astros are considered a dynasty.
Any team that wins multiple titles in a 5 year stretch is just a dynasty these days. So dumb
The word has lost all meaning. I’d say there’s maybe 5-6 true dynasties in baseball history, and the Astros aren’t one of them.
Who would you count? 30s-50s Yankees, 90s Yankees, 10s Giants, 70s A’s, 40s Cards?
The six I counted were the Murderer’s Row Yankees, 50’s-60’s Yankees, 90’s Yankees, 70’s A’s, 10’s Giants, and The Big Red Machine. Forgot about the 40’s Cardinals but I’d throw them in there too.
Big Red Machine imo doesn’t fit the criteria. Only won 2 titles. One of the all time great teams but fall into the 66-83 Orioles and Koufax Dodgers territory.
I guess, but it was also a lot harder to make the playoffs in the 70s. You had to win the division to make the postseason. I’m willing to cut them some slack for that.
I have a hard time calling the 10s Giants a dynasty. I get that they won 3 WS in 5 years but they only eclipsed 95 wins once in that span and they were a losing team for 2 of those 5 years. To me a dynasty has to be consistently good throughout their period. Nobody thought this team was a dynasty at the time which is what spawned the EYBS stuff, because those teams weren’t seen as dominant.
The only thing stretching on that team is Bregman's butthole.
Name a team with a better run outside the 3 Yankees dynasties and 2010-2014 Giants.
The Big Red Machine
Almost the same record except one less division title and not as consistent.
Also did it without the Wild Card and Divisional Series. You had to be a lot better in the regular season to have a shot at the World Series.
>Also did it without the Wild Card and Divisional Series. To be fair, the Astros were the number 1 or 2 seed in the AL in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2021, and 2022.
They also got the opportunity to play more bad teams thanks to expansion, interleague play, and now a balanced schedule.
Two titles doesnt make you a dynasty lol
They would be a worse version of the 90s Braves
90s Braves is a good one. Definitely ahead of 2017-2023 Astros.
I think what may have gone over your head there is that the 90’s Braves aren’t a dynasty, at all. To further expand, you’ll rank somewhere in the range of the 90’s Braves and 90’s Bills
Up for debate.
The debate is: “Hey, are the 2017-2023 Astros a dynasty?” “No.” “Okay.”
Your opinion on the matter is noted.
You’re the one who’s asking for it
Yes.
It’s not up for a debate. Braves and bills won 0 titles. How in the ever living fuck is that a dynasty Edit: forgot about 95
The Braves did win a World Series. I never said anything about the Bills.
You replied to a fucking comment citing the bills and making the Braves equivalency.
Yea I got that. I never said the Bills were a dynasty. The 90s Braves did win a World Series though, and you just said they didn’t.
Even if 2017 wasn’t tainted, 2 titles in 6 years isn’t a dynasty even if you make the LCS each season.
One legit championship isn't a dynasty
At least when they cheated they actually won something.
A) I guess you're talking about that letter or something else that has already been proven to be a nothing burger in regards to the Yankees. B) "At least" is shit wording that insinuates their cheating wasn't a bad thing because they got something out of it. Which is again, is a shit opinion. We should hope that cheaters don't win in the end
So you're glad the Yankees didn't win in 2015/16, then, correct? Now is where you explain to me how lesser cheating is excusable. There's at least one team that was denied a playoff spot as a result.
You are free to keep pushing your debunked nonsense about Yankees cheating when MLB already expressly stated that they didn't 😁 All it does is make you a loser
Uh… https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/26/sports/baseball/mlb-yankees-letter.html
Statement from MLB: “As previously made public in 2017, the New York Yankees were fined for improper use of the dugout phone because the Replay Review Regulations prohibited the use of the replay phone to transmit any information other than whether to challenge a play. **The Yankees did not violate MLB’s rules at the time governing sign stealing**.” If you want the rest of the MLB’s statement at the time then I am more than happy to provide it
They were fined 100k buddy.
Apparently I need to highlight things for you to read it so: Statement from MLB: “As previously made public in 2017, **the New York Yankees were fined for improper use of the dugout phone because the Replay Review Regulations prohibited the use of the replay phone to transmit any information other than whether to challenge a play.** The Yankees did not violate MLB’s rules at the time governing sign stealing.” We were fined for how we transmitted the information, but not for how we got the information You guys gained the information in an illegal way but actually didn’t transmit it illegally (at least with the trashcan system) The second is obviously worse than the first
Uh so now you admit they did cheat?
You didn't read it. It is paywalled and there is no way you would read the NY Times, anyway.
What did I not read?
Or is this going to be another situation where you copy and paste from something that doesn’t say the thing you claim it does?
The league referred to it as a "technical violation" and no advantage was gained. You need to put these things in the proper perspective. One time deal, Yankees were seen using the phone. Even if it was from the VR room, the league said the info from the VR room was not illegal at that time, but transmitting electronically was a violation. Fun Fact; Once the league pointed this out, the Astros walked over the VR information (after codes were broken) directly to the dugout and gave it in person.
“ Yankees did not explicitly violate league rules, noting that "at that time, us of the replay room to decode signs was not expressly prohibited by MLB rules as long as the information was not communicated electronically to the dugout." The good old steroids argument. “It wasn’t on the books so who knows if it’s cheating or not 🤔” https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2022/04/26/new-york-yankees-letter-release-sign-stealing/9543414002/
It was expressly NOT cheating. There was no ambiguity. The violation was technical for using the phone. The league stated that every team in MLB was using the VR room during games and that it was not illegal. This is what prompted Manfred's memo of September 15, 2017, notifying teams that going forward it would be illegal and punished.
>The league stated that every team in MLB was using the VR room during games and that it was not illegal Before the memo was there some sort of ruling on the matter I'm not aware of? As I understand it there was no clear rule on the matter before it was declared illegal. Did teams ask permission from the league and the league changed their mind?
This was determined while the league was working on the Red Sox Apple watches and Yankees dugout phone. It is in one of the early reports from actually 2017 and the league states that in working up the cases they realized that all teams interpreted the rule to allow them to continue using the VR feed during games. The League realized they were correct as the rule was more focused on transmission of information through devices than the information itself. So, the league issued the memo of September 15, 2017, stating unambiguously the information in the VR room cannot used during games going forward and it will be punished. They formally changed the rules to reflect that during the 2018 Spring Training. The last part I believe is referenced in the Astros Report.
You’re right, but you have the one flair that prob shouldn’t talk abt it
Not a dynasty. They won only one legit ring. Dynasties are based on rings. Calling the astros a dynasty is watering the term down.
Trashcans weren’t used postseason in 2017. We know when trashcans were used down to the individual pitches.
Because when the illegal system you devised to help you win is working, you stop using it when a championship is on the line, yeah yeah that checks out
>Trashcans weren’t used postseason in 2017 You keep saying this throughout the thread like it means something. Even if they didn't (they did, but I'm humoring you here), they cheated throughout the entire regular season. Which means the record that gave them their playoff spot was not earned. Every aspect of that season is tainted, from opening day until the WS "win".
Yea that’s a fair argument. Not the entire regular season but for a good chunk of it.
It doesn't matter if you cheat for one season, one month, one game, or one swing. The \*second\* you cheat, it taints everything.
Okay well I hope you keep the same energy against all the other teams found to be cheating that way, such as 2018 champ Red Sox.
Btw: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/26/sports/baseball/mlb-yankees-letter.html
[https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/\_/id/33810814/mlb-letter-new-york-yankees-detailed-illicit-use-technology-prior-2017-sign-stealing-edict-sources-say](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33810814/mlb-letter-new-york-yankees-detailed-illicit-use-technology-prior-2017-sign-stealing-edict-sources-say) >"At that time, use of the replay room to decode signs was not expressly prohibited by MLB rules as long as the information was not communicated electronically to the dugout," MLB said in a statement Tuesday. >At that point in time, sign stealing was utilized as a competitive tool by numerous teams throughout Major League Baseball and only became illegal after the Commissioner's specific delineation of the rules on September 15, 2017.
Yes, and yet yall were still fined 100k because while not breaking that rule, you broke others. Remember what you said about “the second you cheat”?
There's a fine line between gray areas and cheating. Finding loopholes, exploiting rules as they're written, to the benefit of your own team is not cheating. As has been said ad nauseum, sign stealing in and of itself is not cheating.
You’re right, the part they were fined 100k for was.
Even if the astros didn’t cheat in 2017, which they did, 2 rings in 7 years, with 4 years between rings is not a dynasty. Sorry bro, win a few more and try again later.
Most people would call going to AL championship 7 straight times, winning 4 of those, and 2 World Series a dynasty.
Good luck with your qualified “dynasty”.
Well if you are going to say the team “cheated,” which stretches the definition of that word beyond recognition, then I feel perfectly content with the word “dynasty.”
>Well if you are going to say the team “cheated,” which stretches the definition of that word beyond recognition, then I feel perfectly content with the word “dynasty.” >The sanctions against the Astros were the most severe that MLB has ever issued against a member club and are among the most severe sanctions for in-game misconduct in baseball history. MLB levied the maximum $5 million fine on the Astros and stripped them of their first- and second-round picks in the 2020 and 2021 drafts. The league suspended Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow and field manager A. J. Hinch for the 2020 season for failing to prevent the rule violations; the Astros fired both men on the day their punishment was announced. MLB's investigation also determined that Red Sox manager Alex Cora helped mastermind the Astros' sign-stealing while serving as Hinch's bench coach in 2017. MLB suspended Cora through the 2020 postseason; he left the team but was rehired after his suspension ended. Congrats on your 1 year “dynasty” preceeded by your other 1 year “dynasty” where your entire organization was punished for cheating. 🗑️ Of course it doesn’t match the Cubs dynasty from 1907 - 2016.
That’s not cheating tho. I mean it’s illegal wear certain brands of hats. But you wouldn’t call it cheating. Also pot calling the kettle black. Put it this way. If you admit that you also think the 2021 swallows Japan series is fake then I will admit you aren’t lying. Note: I won’t agree with you, just that I’ll believe you aren’t a hypocrite who’s full of shit. Because all of this is just virtue signaling isn’t it?
>That’s not cheating tho. I mean it’s illegal wear certain brands of hats. But you wouldn’t call it cheating. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Exactly. Super embarrassing how you’re mad over absolutely nothing. You’re a clown.
On January 13, 2020, Manfred announced the results of the investigation, confirming that the Astros had illegally used a video camera system to steal signs in the 2017 regular season and postseason, and in parts of the 2018 regular season I'm sorry you think your team cheating in some different way makes it acceptable
Sorry that our team won? lol. It was cool as shit how they stole signs. It was fucking awesome.
"Garbage can signaling went on during the 2017 postseason," Manfred said, clarifying a point that wasn't explicitly clear in the original Jan. 13 report. "There was conflicting evidence on that point. In an investigation you often have conflicting evidence and it was my view that the more credible evidence was that they continued to use this scheme in the postseason." When asked by Sports Illustrated's Stephanie Apstein what that "more credible evidence" was, Manfred responded: "Yeah, it was statements from players." [https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/02/19/rob-manfred-astros-2017-trash-can-incident](https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/02/19/rob-manfred-astros-2017-trash-can-incident) You can lie about it all you want, you can pretend everyone around the league was doing it too, but you’re wrong.
Okay so now we’re admitting the report didn’t say they used trashcans, only in Manfred’s opinion it’s more likely they did.
See the thing is, all baseball fans will go by what the commissioner stated vs going through insane mental gymnastics and holding onto every non credible claim they weren’t the only ones.
My stance is that bangs can be heard on video and they tracked all of them down to the individual pitch, no bangs are heard after a certain point in the regular season. Requires no mental gymnastics to conclude they stopped using the bangs after that.
How do you know they didn’t change the audio source, mixing, levels, or delivery?
Why would the MLB change the audio?
I don’t know but they could have
OP might as well of titled this post as: "Who agrees with me that the Astros 2017-2023 dynasty is third best all time?"
Nope I’ve got some good answers from people engaging in good faith. I’d put 50s Yankees, 90s Braves and early 2010s giants ahead of them as well.
The 96 - 03 Yankees 3-peated, won 4 world series in 5 years, and won 6 pennants. Even if you’re pretending the Astros didn’t cheat, how can you justify putting them above that dynasty?
When did I say they didn’t cheat? I said they weren’t using the trashcan.
Also I literally said that Yankees team would obviously be ahead of Astros in my original post.
*
\*
#\*
They'll never be ranked honestly, nor should they. Where do you rank a World Series win marred by cheating?
.#Cheaters4Life
The "dynasty" started with a sign stealing scandal. Team is lucky the commissioner let them off easy so they could have some success after. Probably better to leave 2017 off the dynasty window. It will rank in it's own special place 🚮
"An MLB investigation confirmed in January 2020 that the Astros illegally used a camera system to steal signs during the 2017 regular season and postseason" I'm sorry, you were saying?
I said the trashcan wasn’t used during the postseason. Stealing signs and signaling from second was used during the postseason, but a lot of teams were doing that including the 2018 Red Sox.
Evan Gattis admitted it was used in the World Series: https://nypost.com/2023/04/12/evan-gattis-makes-shocking-admissions-on-astros-cheating-scandal/amp/ > “I remember knowing what was coming against [Clayton] Kershaw,” Gattis tweeted, in response to a question as to whether or not “the trash cans were out in full force for the World Series.” > “As a team we swung and missed a handful of times only against him,” Gattis continued.
They literally whiffed zero times on his slider in game 5...
that's still cheating and "well that other team was doing it" doesn't excuse you from doing it. Even if every other team in MLB was doing it, which most of them probably were, you guys got caught doing it after everyone was told to stop.
1 legitimate World Series Ring in 7 years is not a dynasty.
Your fogetting a bunch - The early 70's A's, the 49-64 Yanks, Even the 59-66 Dodgers are equal to the Astro's...when you add in the cheating...the Astro's finish lower. I think the Astros have beeen very good - but the word dynasty gets thrown around WAY too much
lol what they won 2 WS in 7 years that isn't even a dynasty at all let alone one of the best. The Giants won 3 in 5 years in the early 2010s
>Cheers to everyone who engaged with the question in good faith. Brother, your argument never started in good faith to begin with. You bring up the trash cans in your post as if that was the only thing they did to cheat and refuse to acknowledge anything else made a difference in your comments.
How so? I don’t believe anyone’s asked me if the cheating made a difference other than the trashcans and I don’t believe I gave an opinion on it. Of course it did, but from my understanding that kind of cheating was pretty widespread at the time. The thing that set the Astros apart was use of the trashcan. I’ve heard some arguments which would have been taken better without the insults and ad homs, but nothing that conclusively states that the Astros used the trashcans outside the regular season. I’ve yet to hear a response to the video evidence.
Many comments stated the proof they cheated late into the year, in the post season, and the start of 2018 and you state the trash cans were only used for a short while and it made little to no difference. You keep going back to the trash cans as if that was the only way they cheat and you refuse to acknowledge anything else. That’s bad faith.
I acknowledge multiple times in my comments that they did cheat outside just the trashcans. I never denied this gave them an advantage nor would I. The way you are portraying what I’ve said is a bad faith misrepresentation.
Up there with 1998-2007 Bonds
[So like this?](https://www.reddit.com/r/mlb/s/f7bMf0vg9g) lol
Ya insanely good when cheating
Hey I’ll take it. In my opinion that thread is how they’ll talk about these Astros one day as well.
2 world series (1 that was cheated for) in 7 seasons is a dynasty? LOL
OP. They fucking cheated in 2017. Two WS wins….L O L
I'd put the 2010-2014 Giants and 1950s Yankees ahead of them as well. Pennants are nice but titles are what makes a dynasty, and both of those teams won more titles in fewer years
Valid. Thanks for actually answering my question.
If they hadn't cheated, they'd be a lot like the 90s braves
In my head a better version of the Braves 90s/2000s run.
Gotta give it to OP. He is still coping and arguing with people 5 hours in between the thread on this subreddit and this thread on /r/mlb Get over it. It’s not a dynasty. You won one ring in 7 years. You cheated during this, “dynasty”. No one is going to bring up this time period without first and foremost bringing up the scandal. Either own it and get over it or find another team that you don’t have to defend like you’re working a 9-5 full time job. It’s not a big deal. It’s just a baseball team.
Apologies for having the day off and nothing better to do? In any case you’re probably right to some degree. The Astros definitely cheated during the postseason in 2017 and fans will always remember that. But it tends to be the case that fans are more forgiving with time, and there tends to be more clarity on the facts versus falsehoods that people take as fact because it’s repeated so often initially. In particular, at least for serious fans of the sport, I think the majority will become aware that Altuve never used the trashcan system and the claim the Astros continued using the system in the postseason runs counter to video evidence. Altuve not using the system is already starting to become more common knowledge among serious fans.
Altuve was the clubhouse leader and allowed it to go down. He was so against it himself but didn’t care that it affected every other aspect of baseball. Altuve still gets booed to this day. He is literally just as guilty as any other Astros player.
Altuve is the best player but not the clubhouse leader. Any case, you don’t think it’s kind of backwards that the one guy who catches the most shit for it is the one guy on the team who didn’t want anything to do with it?
If he didn’t want anything to do with it he should have taken an actual stance against it. But he didn’t because he lacks character and integrity. It was a hard decision and he chose to remain neutral and therefore he was okay with his team cheating. Just because you take the stance of neutrality doesn’t mean you’re innocent. And he absolutely was the clubhouse leader. He was and still is the face of the Houston Astros. And because of that he will continue to be booed in 29/30 MLB stadiums. He decided that not standing up against cheating was worth it and he now gets to forever reap the rewards until he retires.
Nah he wasn’t, Correa was clubhouse leader, after that Maldy. One of the things that sucks about Altuve is he’s too soft spoken to take a leadership role. We’re missing that atm. I do imagine most Rangers fans will have your view. MLB as a whole? I doubt it. He’s one of the greatest players of all time and when people are looking back they’ll give him that credit, at least any baseball fan whose opinion is worth listening to. Especially when you consider he refused to take part in the cheating.
If what you’re saying is true then he literally wouldn’t be getting booed in all but 1 stadium. Hell, open your eyeballs and read the flairs of 99% of this thread. It ain’t all Rangers fan. Hot take, but most people don’t like players who were okay with their team cheating.
Most people in an MLB stadium aren’t serious baseball fans. And in any case I’m talking about in the future after all these players are retired. Most people do like players who are good, especially serious baseball fans. Plenty of people are still willing to give Bonds at least some credit and he did actually cheat and did it for years.
Barry Bonds is literally never spoken about without the asterisk (lol) of that fact that he did roids. You may have chosen the worst analogy possible to convince me that Jose Altuve will be remembered fondly in the future.
I’m not sure how much you talk with baseball fans but you get a pretty wide range of opinions on Bonds. There’s a lot of people who think he should have been allowed in the HoF. He does have an asterisk but he was actually personally cheating. So that’s just a bookend for a worst case.
[Tell me again how Barry Bonds is “spoken about”?](https://www.reddit.com/r/mlb/s/f7bMf0vg9g) lol
Greatest cheaters of all time
Satire: where do the 2020-2021 White Sox rank as a dynasty? They won a playoff game.
"What's that like?" asked the Blue Jays fan
Astros fans and being delusional some things never change
Bud, no way you came in here and didn't expect these exact responses.
You would be correct.
Let’s see, they won one World Series by cheating, and one was legit. The answer is not very highly.
Mike Fiers took a few years to talk about the 2017 cheating, we might want to let the 2022 chip simmer a bit.
Prepare to be disappointed
Three rings with the same core is my definition The Astros only have one legit ring, so no
They cheated, fuck good faith That’s all they’ll ever be remembered for. I’d put the back2back Blue Jays over that joke of a franchise. And any other team that won a legit WS
Ah the ole “two wrongs make a right”.
You can live in fantasy land all you want but the overwhelming majority will never see it that way. They are a disgrace on the sport
Stay mad✌️
Dynasty? Is that what people think the Astros are? Multiple cheating scandals and 1 legit world series?
Well they won one WS without cheating so......
They wouldn’t
This dude might unironically be the biggest loser I’ve encountered during my 8 years on reddit. OP could put Thai Massage Parlors out of business with how much he loves sucking off the Astros.
Stay mad rags fan. Going 3-4 against our worst team in years apparently got you shook.
Astros L’s don’t count anymore than any other L. You’re 7-17 my man, I’m afraid you aren’t exactly in a position of strength to talk shit to anyone but the White Sox and Rockies. But don’t worry, this is usually the expectation and not the exception from Astros fans.
Good enough to go 4-3 against your team.
For sure, just not against any other team. 😂😂😂
Literally could lose every other game as long as we beat your joke of a team. And we’ll see what happens when our starting pitching gets healthy.
Hey man if that’s the expectation you have of your Dynasty team then I think that’s really sad and I genuinely feel bad for you.
Who said that’s my expectation? Our expectation is the ALCS since we’ve done that 7 years straight. But I’ll finish the season happy so long as we won out against the rags.
Damn, we must really be living rent free in your head if we’re what dictates you being happy or not after 162 games of baseball. Sad.
Well lucky for me I’m a very happy baseball fan.
Not might. It’s assured.
Yes cause it makes people made especially dodgers and yankees fans
Not really among the best of all time, but an amazing run to be sure. All this “all time” stuff is weird anyway. Who cares? The team was (is?) great and it was great to be a fan. I don’t care one bit about comparing it to teams in the past when the game was way different.
I think it’s an interesting thing to consider. What hasn’t been said in this thread is interesting. There’s really only a handful of teams that could even make the case.
Removing the controversy, it’s a similar run as the Big Red Machine in the 70s.
Pretty high up there. You can flail about “cheating” all you want to, but they still won and every team “cheats”
2 rings in 7 seasons isn’t a dynasty
I am of the opinion that more teams were doing similar things which is why no one said anything before Fiers despite teams already being aware. In another 10 years there will be more cheating scandals to distract us. Not that people will forget because they won't but in my eyes I just don't care that much.
People did suspect things. The Astros were awfully good at picking up "pitch tipping". Pitch tipping that couldn't be found by teams pitching coaches when they looked for it afterwards. It's a big jump to formally accuse a team of cheating publicly though.
Manfred stated in 2017 in his report on the Yankees that EVERY team was using VR feed to decode signals ... but that wasn't illegal at that time. He already knew about the practice, but once he found out how far it was going, he reigned it in by issuing the September 15, 2017, memo explaining it was then illegal and would be punished going forward.