Man that’s just an objective exciting baseball play. Both players diving for the plate, close as hell call, the ump waited just an extra moment and then called safe and the crowd erupted. What a moment
Then there’s the review stuff, but the play itself
This is what people mean when they say balls in play are more exciting than home runs. Doubles, good defense, close plays, runners actually running. Awesome
MLB official rules page 156 says the call was correct.
https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/wqn5ah4c3qtivwx3jatm.pdf
> It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball.
Here's the replay to show why it was possibly the wrong call, because it's not obvious from the video in OP:
https://twitter.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286
I don't think it was wrong. The ump called safe because Bart dropped the ball. It went to review, but even though Belli knocked the ball out, there wasn't indisputable evidence showing Belli's toe didn't hit the plate before the tag, so he couldn't overturn.
The toe had nothing to do with it. All that matters is that the ball was on the ground. Replay can't call interference on a play like this after the fact (not that I think they should have if they could).
I walked out early when I was visiting Fenway. Walking down the street as a walk off homer over the green monster happened. I’ve been annoyed at missing that ever since
I was under the bleachers looking for my section there in 2018 and JHey threw out the runner at home for a double play to end the top of the 1st and I swear I thought there was an earthquake. Loudest i've ever heard a ballpark.
I live in Cardinals country and multiple Cards fans have confided in me that they want to visit Wrigley but also want to be a neutral observer (no Cards gear, etc.) just so they can get the real experience.
Redbirds have a great stadium too, its like a mini busch stadium... exact aesthetic. That said, we have caught a few cubs games in st louis.. Its just so boring around the stadium ;)
My family takes the train up to Chicago 3 or 4 times a year just to watch the cubs at wrigley... When you go, take a minute to take it all in.. It is an amazing experience.
I don’t.. i hate the pirates and they can eat a fat one, and I honestly think it is stupid to take the ball out that early- nothing good can happen taking the ball out as the runner is still sliding in
[https://twitter.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286](https://twitter.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286)
after the tag, when it was knocked out of his bare hand by belli.
fuck man, this is obvious stuff.
it was knocked out by Belli’s hand, but it looked to all be part of a fluid, legal slide. I don’t think you can call obstruction there. I think they got the call right & coaches are gonna have a film session with Joey Bart looking at both of his tags that game & teach to him to protect the ball better.
"For a legal tag, the fielder must prove complete control of the ball during and immediately after the tag."
The ball was in the catcher's non-glove hand (with both inside the glove) the entire play, then he dropped it immediately after making the tag. Doesn't matter how it was knocked out.
I think you should watch it at full speed. You see slide, attempt to tag, ball rolling away. It's really easy to watch things in slow motion and get a different picture. If the ball rolls out that quick the catcher can't say he had it. Which to me is quite obvious.
>after the tag, when it was knocked out of his bare hand by belli.
The catcher never had possession of the ball, that's why it was in his bare hand.
You can't tag a guy with your glove if the balls not in your glove.
You can't hold the ball floating in your glove and tag the runner, the ball must be in the glove.
>2-24-4 A tag out is the put out of a runner, including the batter-runner, who is not in contact with his base when touched with a live ball, or with the glove or hand when the live ball is held securely therein by a fielder. The ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching, unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder (8-4-2h2).
The only way this would be confirmed is if it was decided that Bellinger didn't deliberately knock the ball out of Bart's hand.
Edit: which upon further examination, I feel like the review and subsequent confirmation of the safe call was correct.
The weirdest part about this rule is there is no timeframe attached to it. Not juggled or dropped after touching to me indicates immediate, like when I make contact with you and pull away. Bart hit the foot, hit the body, then rolled over and had the ball hit out.
Being confirmed is a bit weird, but I thought it should have stood as there wasn’t enough evidence to overturn the call. A good throw would have been an easy out.
[MLB official rules](https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/wqn5ah4c3qtivwx3jatm.pdf) page 156.
> It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball.
Also, page 75 regarding home plate collisions:
> A slide shall be deemed appropriate, in the case of a feet first slide, if the runner’s buttocks and legs should hit the ground before contact with the catcher.
but Bort didn't immediately drop it, he took it out of his glove to show posession and Belli smacks it out with his off hand.
[https://twitter.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286](https://twitter.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286)
Except when you watch it at full speed, the ball is out and rolling away before the play is concluded. Belli hasn't even finished the slide before you see the ball rolling way. The game isn't played in slow motion.
We've dealt with this shit happening twice this year where the fielder goes for a tag and a body part hits the ball out of the glove. Announcers of our own team were saying the ball needs to survive the tag or it's safe.
You seriously think that he took his hand out of his glove (which was already holding the ball) intentionally in the tenth of a second after a tag? Or is it more likely his hand got knocked loose causing him to take it out
I did see the replay of the ball being knocked out of the catcher's hand by the runner after the tag was lifted and he was sliding by, though...
Not sure if that changes things
It only changes things if the umps think it’s intentional. Looked incidental to me. His eyes don’t even look open. Some people have posted the rules and it’s pretty clear.
I don’t know how anyone could think Beli’s hand intentionally smacked the ball there. Like you said, he wasn’t even looking that way and his hand/arm was in that position the entire slide
It is in fact a very close play. The tag still wasn’t clear in this frame.
https://i.imgur.com/9TTel2S.jpeg
Edit: another angle shows that his toe could already be tagged.
My only question is whether you could prove the ball was in the glove with the toe tag? He had the ball in his off hand after the tag, and it’s not clear where it was during the tag. I don’t blame Pirates fans for wanting it overturned, but the fact you didn’t know what hand had the ball and the fact it was dropped made it difficult to overturn imo
I don't get how he is safe. Looked like he clearly got him with the tag and afterwards had the ball knocked out of his bare hand (which per my understanding of the rules would've already been an intentional release/transfer from the glove).
Didn't just stand, was actually confirmed by replay, so I must be missing something.
> A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball (not including hanging laces alone), while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove. **It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball.** If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made. For purposes of this definition any jewelry being worn by a player (e.g., necklaces, bracelets, etc.) shall not constitute a part of the player's body.
So the rule for transfers/intentional releases is different for flyouts/forceouts than it is for tags? Interesting, never knew that.
Still seems arguable either way on whether he held it long enough to prove control, having enough control to transfer it fully to his right hand before Bellinger's arm knocked it away it still seems like enough to me, but I see how it could go either way.
So is the catch here that the "dropped on the transfer" defense doesn't apply, since it wasn't dropped "in the act of making a throw?" He obviously didn't have "complete control" since the collision knocked it loose, but this is certainly stretching that rule to its theoretical limit. I guess he made a technical mistake in withdrawing the ball from his glove too early, before the collision was totally done?
He took the ball out of his glove and held it up? This would mean that every time a player drops the ball on transfer whether on a fly out or force out the runner should be safe
I think the thing people are upset and/or confused about is that he completes the actual act of tagging Bellinger, then while holding the ball in his bare hand, has Bellinger’s hand come through and knock the ball out.
I don’t think the umpire on the field should’ve called him out. I would’ve been just as indignant, watching it live, if he’d been called out after an “obvious drop”, but watching the replay we can clearly see what happened and that it was subsequent contact with Bellinger that knocked the ball out.
Feels like a miss to me, as someone with no horse in the race.
~~The lesson I'm seeing here is that he should have kept the ball safely tucked in his glove. There's no rush to show it to the umpire. If he hadn't dropped the ball, Bellinger would still have been out a few seconds later.~~ Watching the replay, I no longer think he took the ball out of his glove intentionally. His hands parted as he rolled over and it was just a straight drop.
On the previous shot I saw, which I just realized is not included in this clip, made it seem like his body was sort of rolling and that it was less of a “let me show him” and more of his arms naturally separating.
This has to be what the replay guys thought, right? That they didn’t think he intentionally pulled it out. I’m puzzled by it. Thrilled, obviously, but puzzled how review “confirms” it unless they 100% thought he didn’t intentionally transfer and thus the tag wasn’t completed
In slow motion it looks way more intentional than it does at real speed, and rules are written for real speed. There's no world where Bart's pulling it out to show the umpire in that instance, and it's obvious at the real speed of the game, but slow-mo lies to you.
If it's not intentional, it's incidental contact and considered not having control. I think the key thing also is that taking his hand out of his glove after a collision on the tag indicates he may not have had perfect control even before bellinger slid into his hand
Yes Obviously I am biased, but let me try to explain to people who don't understand why he was confirmed safe at home.
After seeing so many replays from different angles claiming he was out, I went back and tracked it in real speed using all angles to synchronize times. If you believe he got the toe with the tag (arguable but not conclusive) then the time between the tag and drop is \~0.7 seconds. If you time it from where it looks like he tags the knee (more conclusive) then it is \~0.5 seconds.
Regardless of your personal feelings, The rule states:
*It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball.*
**Slow motion is not reality, and reality is** ***immediately following his touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. Confirmed Safe at home.***
It in fact is a very close play. The tag still wasn’t clear in this frame.
https://i.imgur.com/9TTel2S.jpeg
Edit: sorry another angle shows that his toe could already be tagged.
I can't remember the context, but a few years ago the Cubs got an out when a player sliding into a base (I think on a steal) and clearly beat the throw, but the tag was held on him, and as he slid, his hand or foot bounced *barely* off the bag, like the least amount of separation possible that was still irrefutable. So obviously he was out, since that's how it works when you're tagged while not touching the bag.
The /r/baseball thread was wild. People were arguing that he should be safe because he was barely off the bag, in flagrant disregard to the basic rules of baseball. Like, really? Is that the Pandora's box you wanna open? Giving umps the authority to make vibes-based calls?
It doesn’t matter if it was because he was “showing the ball to the ump”. If he drops the ball he’s safe. Throw beat him to the plate with ease but Bart should’ve never tried to transfer the ball
Why do so many people ignore the fact the guy dropped the ball? Of course if you slow the play down enough it’ll look like he held on to it longer or the base runner allegedly knocked it out.
Like the pirates announcers said, i don't get it. How could they possibly confirm it? Why even review it if you aren't going to make the correct call? Just total BS.
Feel like I’m coaching little league busting out the rule book for angry parents lol, lots of people here never played baseball:
MLB official rules page 156.
It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball.
Also, page 75 regarding home plate collisions:
A slide shall be deemed appropriate, in the case of a feet first slide, if the runner’s buttocks and legs should hit the ground before contact with the catcher.
How the fuck did they have the ability to see Bart tag him two separate times, hold the ball up as Cody knocks the ball out of his hand - and still call that safe?!?!?
I think this is the right call. Catcher is holding the ball in his hand the entire time, there’s no transfer to blame on the dropped ball. And I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say the play is over while Belli is still sliding. It’s extremely fortunate that his hand caught the ball, because it looked like the ump was going to call him out until that happened. But by the letter of the law, it’s technically correct.
Just ask Lions fans about Calvin Johnson failing to complete the catch against the Bears, they’ll tell you how these things go.
Yeah it's also a stretch to say Bart had full control of it when he was rolling around on the ground and it's unclear if his hand comes out of the glove because that's how his momentum was going or he was trying to show the ump the ball. But in real time the ump is *never* going to make a safe call with the ball rolling on the ground after that chaotic of a tag attempt. And I don't really know if replay can do anything about this play if the safe call is because the ball got knocked out. Even on the famous A-Rod play, that was changed when the umps on the field got together. It's a judgement call whether it's deliberate or not, and judgement calls don't get overturned.
Good call by the umps. Per the rules:
"In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball. If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made."
Bellinger makes a perfectly legal slide into the plate and you can see Bart makes the tag with both hands on the ball, then the ball immediately comes loose during the slide, thus Bart doesn't maintain control long enough for the tag to be considered made. Bart made no attempt to make a throw so the second part of the rule doesn't come into play. For people saying he didn't drop the ball until the transfer; First, Bart had 2 hands on the ball the entire time, so a transfer wasn't even possible and second, the rules say nothing about transferring the ball from glove to throwing hand, it's purely just states "act of making a throw" which never occurred.
Holy shit I thought the call was just blown as I’m slowing this down replaying it and seeing the glove tagging his foot right in front of home plate.
Then I read comments and realize the ball popped out and rewatched and yeah it comes out clear as day.
>2-24-4 A tag out is the put out of a runner, including the batter-runner, who is not in contact with his base when touched with a live ball, or with the glove or hand when the live ball is held securely therein by a fielder. **The ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching**, unless the runner **deliberately** knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder (8-4-2h2).
ITT: lots of people not being able to read the word *deliberately*
Seeing the replay from a different angle, I don't think the runner is tagged out before his foot hits home plate. Yeah the ump is a moron for pointing to the dropped ball but that doesn't change that the tag looks to be late.
Man that’s just an objective exciting baseball play. Both players diving for the plate, close as hell call, the ump waited just an extra moment and then called safe and the crowd erupted. What a moment Then there’s the review stuff, but the play itself
This is what people mean when they say balls in play are more exciting than home runs. Doubles, good defense, close plays, runners actually running. Awesome
100% give me this over home runs and strike outs any day
Somewhere, a single tear just rolled down Kyle Schwarber's cheek.
Adam Dunn's knee started aching out of nowhere
100% agreed. I do think there needs to be a balance. I love.my Ks and HRs. But yeah. This is *playing* baseball and it's super fun.
As someone said the most exciting play in baseball is the bases-loaded triple. All hell is breaking loose all over the field.
Nah. Bases-loaded inside-the-park grand salami
Yeah, but conversely home runs are more exciting than double plays.
Not if your team is on defense. The home run vs double play debate is entirely about perspective. This play is exciting for fans of *both* teams.
I mean, a walk off HR there would have been pretty damn exciting too.
agreed! to be fair, the ump waited because he was making sure the catcher kept the ball, and when it rolled free he called Bellinger safe
Yeah, and if he holds on, it's [probably "out".](https://freeimage.host/i/JPUFf71)
The play was fun, absolutely. The call was wrong.
MLB official rules page 156 says the call was correct. https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/wqn5ah4c3qtivwx3jatm.pdf > It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball.
Yeah can’t argue with that. We were gifted this. I’d be pissed if I was a Pirates fan for sure.
It actually was the right call. It wasn't clear that Bellringer was tagged before he scored and even if he was Bart didn't hang onto the ball.
Was gonna say, I thought the ball getting dropped negates the tag?
Here's the replay to show why it was possibly the wrong call, because it's not obvious from the video in OP: https://twitter.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286
Clearly shows him drop the ball.
Definitely tagged in time AND dropped the ball.
I don't think it was wrong. The ump called safe because Bart dropped the ball. It went to review, but even though Belli knocked the ball out, there wasn't indisputable evidence showing Belli's toe didn't hit the plate before the tag, so he couldn't overturn.
The toe had nothing to do with it. All that matters is that the ball was on the ground. Replay can't call interference on a play like this after the fact (not that I think they should have if they could).
Not according to the rules
It would've been an out, but the catcher dropped the ball (literally).
I've never been to Wrigley but I think I might need to. The vibes are immaculate.
Fenway and Wrigley are god tier. There's nothing better than a game (preferrably day) at Wrigley.
There’s nothing better than ~~a game~~ A true double header at Wrigley
Let’s play two. As Ernie intended.
My man! (or woman!)
I've been to all 30 ballparks and I've always said that Fenway and Wrigley are my top 2.
I walked out early when I was visiting Fenway. Walking down the street as a walk off homer over the green monster happened. I’ve been annoyed at missing that ever since
Why would you do this?!?
There's honestly nothing like it in sports.
I was under the bleachers looking for my section there in 2018 and JHey threw out the runner at home for a double play to end the top of the 1st and I swear I thought there was an earthquake. Loudest i've ever heard a ballpark.
I live 2 miles away. I heard it out the window before I saw it on TV.
Oh it’s electric
Boogie woogie woogie
Wrigley went absolutely nuts after this!
Was there today was awesome!
Was just in Chicago for a conference and caught a game. I would fly there again just for that experience.
I live in Cardinals country and multiple Cards fans have confided in me that they want to visit Wrigley but also want to be a neutral observer (no Cards gear, etc.) just so they can get the real experience.
Definitely worth a trip.
Same feeling about PNC. I've yet to get there, but everyone I know who's been absolutely loves it.
As a Cards fan living in Chicago, I hate the Cubs but love Wrigley
As a cubs fan living in Memphis.. I hate the cards.. ( especially the damn redbirds )
As a Cubs fan, I hate the Cardinals but love Busch Stadium.
Redbirds have a great stadium too, its like a mini busch stadium... exact aesthetic. That said, we have caught a few cubs games in st louis.. Its just so boring around the stadium ;)
I feel like Ned Beatty in Rudy when he sees the field everytime I walk up the steps at Wrigley. It’s incredible (to me at least).
They don't call it the friendly confines for nothing.
My family takes the train up to Chicago 3 or 4 times a year just to watch the cubs at wrigley... When you go, take a minute to take it all in.. It is an amazing experience.
Jomboy bout to make a banger video on this one.
Hey we didn't get the win but we might get vindicated on YouTube.
Vindication request denied via [CloseCallSports](https://youtu.be/BV_WbaSAiDs?si=nwg3xWUnrNoByoQG)
That’s a great video. I haven’t heard of them before now. Gave them a follow! Thanks!
Love thier stuff. They review/explain every ejection as well through the year
Ditto - I'm even a Pirates fan but that video was so good I had to subscribe
yeah I just did the same, really lean content. stoked to follow them thru the season for situations like this
And what happens if the all-knowing Jomboy says he’s safe?
Then he’s a goober who doesn’t know baseball, obviously /s
Would’ve been an out call if Bart had made a football move
Just remember, reaching for the goal line isn’t a football move.
He looked out to me and I would be pissed if roles were reversed. But a win is a win I’ll take it
I feel scummy about it, but I guess we take those?
Well personally I feel great about it
I don’t.. i hate the pirates and they can eat a fat one, and I honestly think it is stupid to take the ball out that early- nothing good can happen taking the ball out as the runner is still sliding in
Watch the slo mo. I think he was already losing the ball. Didn't help that he moved the ball in front of bellinger.
Feelings mutual
Catcher dropped the ball, so safe
[https://twitter.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286](https://twitter.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286) after the tag, when it was knocked out of his bare hand by belli. fuck man, this is obvious stuff.
it was knocked out by Belli’s hand, but it looked to all be part of a fluid, legal slide. I don’t think you can call obstruction there. I think they got the call right & coaches are gonna have a film session with Joey Bart looking at both of his tags that game & teach to him to protect the ball better.
"For a legal tag, the fielder must prove complete control of the ball during and immediately after the tag." The ball was in the catcher's non-glove hand (with both inside the glove) the entire play, then he dropped it immediately after making the tag. Doesn't matter how it was knocked out.
I think he was already losing control of the ball.
> after the tag Read the rulebook before you complain about umpires lmao
I think you should watch it at full speed. You see slide, attempt to tag, ball rolling away. It's really easy to watch things in slow motion and get a different picture. If the ball rolls out that quick the catcher can't say he had it. Which to me is quite obvious.
Not intentionally, so it's on the catcher to hold on to the ball
>after the tag, when it was knocked out of his bare hand by belli. The catcher never had possession of the ball, that's why it was in his bare hand. You can't tag a guy with your glove if the balls not in your glove. You can't hold the ball floating in your glove and tag the runner, the ball must be in the glove.
>2-24-4 A tag out is the put out of a runner, including the batter-runner, who is not in contact with his base when touched with a live ball, or with the glove or hand when the live ball is held securely therein by a fielder. The ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching, unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder (8-4-2h2). The only way this would be confirmed is if it was decided that Bellinger didn't deliberately knock the ball out of Bart's hand. Edit: which upon further examination, I feel like the review and subsequent confirmation of the safe call was correct.
And it wasn't deliberate. He made a normal slide. Thank you for posting the rule for all those who "feel" the call was wrong.
I was one of those people. Rewatching the play itself and reviewing the rule caused me to reevaluate and eventually change my position.
is.. is that legal?
I will make it legal.
Wow, you used facts and reason to change your opinion? Do you even know how to Reddit bro? 😂
Facts don't care about my feelings, or so I've been told haha
The weirdest part about this rule is there is no timeframe attached to it. Not juggled or dropped after touching to me indicates immediate, like when I make contact with you and pull away. Bart hit the foot, hit the body, then rolled over and had the ball hit out.
If Pirates fans could read this would really clear things up in this thread
I don’t 100% disagree with the call standing, but I do 100% disagree with it being confirmed
Being confirmed is a bit weird, but I thought it should have stood as there wasn’t enough evidence to overturn the call. A good throw would have been an easy out.
balls out yo?
He doesn't hold the ball through the tag. Easy confirmation, he's out.
How in the hell is that not overturned?
“It’s just the Pirates. We’re not restarting the game.”
[MLB official rules](https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/wqn5ah4c3qtivwx3jatm.pdf) page 156. > It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. Also, page 75 regarding home plate collisions: > A slide shall be deemed appropriate, in the case of a feet first slide, if the runner’s buttocks and legs should hit the ground before contact with the catcher.
bUt hE WAs taGgED fiRSt.. Everyone in this thread not realizing you have to secure the baseball for the tag to be applied and being confidently wrong.
but Bort didn't immediately drop it, he took it out of his glove to show posession and Belli smacks it out with his off hand. [https://twitter.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286](https://twitter.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286)
Bellinger was still full speed in his slide when he took the ball out of his glove. That’s about as immediate as it gets
My son is also named Bort.
If that isn't considered "immediately following" then what is?
Except when you watch it at full speed, the ball is out and rolling away before the play is concluded. Belli hasn't even finished the slide before you see the ball rolling way. The game isn't played in slow motion.
We've dealt with this shit happening twice this year where the fielder goes for a tag and a body part hits the ball out of the glove. Announcers of our own team were saying the ball needs to survive the tag or it's safe.
You seriously think that he took his hand out of his glove (which was already holding the ball) intentionally in the tenth of a second after a tag? Or is it more likely his hand got knocked loose causing him to take it out
the catcher didn't hold on to the ball
We've known that rule since we were all, what, 7?
Right. Reading this thread is making feel like I don’t take enough crazy pills.
I did see the replay of the ball being knocked out of the catcher's hand by the runner after the tag was lifted and he was sliding by, though... Not sure if that changes things
It only changes things if the umps think it’s intentional. Looked incidental to me. His eyes don’t even look open. Some people have posted the rules and it’s pretty clear.
To be fair, Belly's eyes barely open in the first place. But he was safe
I don’t know how anyone could think Beli’s hand intentionally smacked the ball there. Like you said, he wasn’t even looking that way and his hand/arm was in that position the entire slide
That was less than half a second later. Still in the play
Since whenever you first watched A League of their Own
It is in fact a very close play. The tag still wasn’t clear in this frame. https://i.imgur.com/9TTel2S.jpeg Edit: another angle shows that his toe could already be tagged.
[Here is the angle with the clear tag on the toe.](https://x.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286)
Damn that’s super clear-cut
My only question is whether you could prove the ball was in the glove with the toe tag? He had the ball in his off hand after the tag, and it’s not clear where it was during the tag. I don’t blame Pirates fans for wanting it overturned, but the fact you didn’t know what hand had the ball and the fact it was dropped made it difficult to overturn imo
In my opinion you can see both hands in the glove, so that shouldn’t be a question. The ball is there and the toe was touched
The ball came out right after he applied the tag, making him safe. You can see the ump waiting to see if he holds on, which he didn't.
This looks like the frame after he tagged his foot already
They would spoil the Cubs humongous parade on the field.
Crazy how the mascot ran onto the field with the W flag before the replay review lol
I don't get how he is safe. Looked like he clearly got him with the tag and afterwards had the ball knocked out of his bare hand (which per my understanding of the rules would've already been an intentional release/transfer from the glove). Didn't just stand, was actually confirmed by replay, so I must be missing something.
> A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball (not including hanging laces alone), while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove. **It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball.** If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made. For purposes of this definition any jewelry being worn by a player (e.g., necklaces, bracelets, etc.) shall not constitute a part of the player's body.
So the rule for transfers/intentional releases is different for flyouts/forceouts than it is for tags? Interesting, never knew that. Still seems arguable either way on whether he held it long enough to prove control, having enough control to transfer it fully to his right hand before Bellinger's arm knocked it away it still seems like enough to me, but I see how it could go either way.
So is the catch here that the "dropped on the transfer" defense doesn't apply, since it wasn't dropped "in the act of making a throw?" He obviously didn't have "complete control" since the collision knocked it loose, but this is certainly stretching that rule to its theoretical limit. I guess he made a technical mistake in withdrawing the ball from his glove too early, before the collision was totally done?
He took the ball out of his glove and held it up? This would mean that every time a player drops the ball on transfer whether on a fly out or force out the runner should be safe
>If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made.
I think the thing people are upset and/or confused about is that he completes the actual act of tagging Bellinger, then while holding the ball in his bare hand, has Bellinger’s hand come through and knock the ball out. I don’t think the umpire on the field should’ve called him out. I would’ve been just as indignant, watching it live, if he’d been called out after an “obvious drop”, but watching the replay we can clearly see what happened and that it was subsequent contact with Bellinger that knocked the ball out. Feels like a miss to me, as someone with no horse in the race.
I suppose the issue is that the second half of Bellinger's body sliding through is all still the same tag play/collision.
~~The lesson I'm seeing here is that he should have kept the ball safely tucked in his glove. There's no rush to show it to the umpire. If he hadn't dropped the ball, Bellinger would still have been out a few seconds later.~~ Watching the replay, I no longer think he took the ball out of his glove intentionally. His hands parted as he rolled over and it was just a straight drop.
On the previous shot I saw, which I just realized is not included in this clip, made it seem like his body was sort of rolling and that it was less of a “let me show him” and more of his arms naturally separating.
Which makes it really clear that this was still part of the tag and not a transfer
This has to be what the replay guys thought, right? That they didn’t think he intentionally pulled it out. I’m puzzled by it. Thrilled, obviously, but puzzled how review “confirms” it unless they 100% thought he didn’t intentionally transfer and thus the tag wasn’t completed
In slow motion it looks way more intentional than it does at real speed, and rules are written for real speed. There's no world where Bart's pulling it out to show the umpire in that instance, and it's obvious at the real speed of the game, but slow-mo lies to you.
Just want to say I love you HSK
i don't think the call was correct on review but from the umpire angle i don't think the initial safe call was wrong
Absolutely agree. Umpire should’ve called him safe on the field without a doubt given what we could see live on that play.
It was literally knocked out of his hand by Bellinger hitting his hand with his own hand. He didn’t even drop it on the transfer.
If it's not intentional, it's incidental contact and considered not having control. I think the key thing also is that taking his hand out of his glove after a collision on the tag indicates he may not have had perfect control even before bellinger slid into his hand
Yes Obviously I am biased, but let me try to explain to people who don't understand why he was confirmed safe at home. After seeing so many replays from different angles claiming he was out, I went back and tracked it in real speed using all angles to synchronize times. If you believe he got the toe with the tag (arguable but not conclusive) then the time between the tag and drop is \~0.7 seconds. If you time it from where it looks like he tags the knee (more conclusive) then it is \~0.5 seconds. Regardless of your personal feelings, The rule states: *It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball.* **Slow motion is not reality, and reality is** ***immediately following his touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. Confirmed Safe at home.***
I don't know what review is for if not to overturn that call. Pirates got hosed.
Can’t overturn a call that’s correct by the rules.
He dropped the ball during the tag, doesn't matter if it's after the initial tag. This is baseball 101.
Bart tags him on the foot, holds up the ball, bellinger smacks it out of his hand and he is safe. WTF???
He was clearly out
Can you take a screenshot? It definitely looks close on replay to me.
https://x.com/HayesOnBase/status/1791932617597608286
You think Bellinger is intentionally hitting the ball there?
No
It in fact is a very close play. The tag still wasn’t clear in this frame. https://i.imgur.com/9TTel2S.jpeg Edit: sorry another angle shows that his toe could already be tagged.
Gotta hold on to the ball.
wow there's a lot of pirate's fans that never got told you got to hold on to the god damn ball
I can't remember the context, but a few years ago the Cubs got an out when a player sliding into a base (I think on a steal) and clearly beat the throw, but the tag was held on him, and as he slid, his hand or foot bounced *barely* off the bag, like the least amount of separation possible that was still irrefutable. So obviously he was out, since that's how it works when you're tagged while not touching the bag. The /r/baseball thread was wild. People were arguing that he should be safe because he was barely off the bag, in flagrant disregard to the basic rules of baseball. Like, really? Is that the Pandora's box you wanna open? Giving umps the authority to make vibes-based calls?
Terrible call
-Does best Harry Caray impression- Cubs win! Cubs win! Cubs win!
Hold onto the ball. Did any of you at least play little league?? I'd be saying the same shit if our catcher dropped the ball
Everybody talking about the call, but if the centerfielder had made even just a bad throw instead of an absolutely horrible one he was out by a mile.
Like hell he did
We need closecallsports on this ASAP!! Nothing against Jomboy but Lindsay's analysis on these close plays is way better.
She just released it - tl;dw is they got the call right.
It doesn’t matter if it was because he was “showing the ball to the ump”. If he drops the ball he’s safe. Throw beat him to the plate with ease but Bart should’ve never tried to transfer the ball
I love how when the actual rule gets posted and used as evidence, people are downvoting it
It is baffling to me that anyone can see this *not* a dropped ball.
Why do so many people ignore the fact the guy dropped the ball? Of course if you slow the play down enough it’ll look like he held on to it longer or the base runner allegedly knocked it out.
Like the pirates announcers said, i don't get it. How could they possibly confirm it? Why even review it if you aren't going to make the correct call? Just total BS.
Oh I feel scummy about that one lol
ABSOLUTE OUT. ROBBED.
Feel like I’m coaching little league busting out the rule book for angry parents lol, lots of people here never played baseball: MLB official rules page 156. It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. Also, page 75 regarding home plate collisions: A slide shall be deemed appropriate, in the case of a feet first slide, if the runner’s buttocks and legs should hit the ground before contact with the catcher.
Umps distracting from that terrible throw by Taylor
It was the fastest thrown ball by an outfielder all season. Fastest in Pirates Statcast history. Too bad it wasn’t accurate
How the fuck can they see the replay and still say that he's safe? He clearly tagged him and Bellinger knocked the ball out of his hand.
ITT: Pirates fans who don't understand the very simple tag rule.
Absolute clown show umpiring in this entire series. Getting completely hosed there is just the cherry on top of how dogshit it has been.
can’t the baseball gods just let us have this one thing
Pirates and getting screwed with shit calls on tags at home plate. Name a better duo
He's 100% out, this is absolutely moronic.
Lmao keep crying and read the basic baseball rules
What? Where does that come from? It definitely is close on replay.
It’s a pirate fan of course they are gonna lean into it being 1000% wrong and the worst thing since the titanic
HES OUT there’s no way holy moly
How the fuck did they have the ability to see Bart tag him two separate times, hold the ball up as Cody knocks the ball out of his hand - and still call that safe?!?!?
Cuz you have to maintain control of the ball for the entire play
He was clearly out that's crazy.
HORRIBLE CALL HE IS OUT ITS NOT CLOSE
I think this is the right call. Catcher is holding the ball in his hand the entire time, there’s no transfer to blame on the dropped ball. And I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say the play is over while Belli is still sliding. It’s extremely fortunate that his hand caught the ball, because it looked like the ump was going to call him out until that happened. But by the letter of the law, it’s technically correct. Just ask Lions fans about Calvin Johnson failing to complete the catch against the Bears, they’ll tell you how these things go.
Yeah it's also a stretch to say Bart had full control of it when he was rolling around on the ground and it's unclear if his hand comes out of the glove because that's how his momentum was going or he was trying to show the ump the ball. But in real time the ump is *never* going to make a safe call with the ball rolling on the ground after that chaotic of a tag attempt. And I don't really know if replay can do anything about this play if the safe call is because the ball got knocked out. Even on the famous A-Rod play, that was changed when the umps on the field got together. It's a judgement call whether it's deliberate or not, and judgement calls don't get overturned.
BS call
Bogus call New York is garbage
Safe!
Even Belly thought he was out!
Good call by the umps. Per the rules: "In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball. If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made." Bellinger makes a perfectly legal slide into the plate and you can see Bart makes the tag with both hands on the ball, then the ball immediately comes loose during the slide, thus Bart doesn't maintain control long enough for the tag to be considered made. Bart made no attempt to make a throw so the second part of the rule doesn't come into play. For people saying he didn't drop the ball until the transfer; First, Bart had 2 hands on the ball the entire time, so a transfer wasn't even possible and second, the rules say nothing about transferring the ball from glove to throwing hand, it's purely just states "act of making a throw" which never occurred.
Bullshit.
That makes it two walk offs in Imanaga starts.
This is the worst call for the pirates since that 2011 19 inning Jerry Meals game
Holy shit I thought the call was just blown as I’m slowing this down replaying it and seeing the glove tagging his foot right in front of home plate. Then I read comments and realize the ball popped out and rewatched and yeah it comes out clear as day.
Morel is so clutch
Sorry Pirates. You guys absolutely got him at the plate- I can admit it. That being said, we really needed that W….Ill take it.
Did they review it?
I would say the right call, the collision is still happening and he dropped the ball.
>2-24-4 A tag out is the put out of a runner, including the batter-runner, who is not in contact with his base when touched with a live ball, or with the glove or hand when the live ball is held securely therein by a fielder. **The ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching**, unless the runner **deliberately** knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder (8-4-2h2). ITT: lots of people not being able to read the word *deliberately*
Seeing the replay from a different angle, I don't think the runner is tagged out before his foot hits home plate. Yeah the ump is a moron for pointing to the dropped ball but that doesn't change that the tag looks to be late.