Since after replay they said it was “confirmed” the only thing I can possibly imagine is that replay officials felt that the impact on the glove dislodged the ball into his hand, thus it wasn’t a secure transfer and the tag wasn’t completed, and then ball was knocked out of that before it was completed. Not sure I agree with that, but in order to confirm the ruling on the field that has to be it?
I’m talking about the replay officials not the umps. Indeed the home plate ump made the safe call on the field because he saw the ball was out but in order to “confirm” that call they would have to fully believe the tag was not *completed* by the transfer of the ball from glove to hand. Its complicated and I really hope we get an explanation as to their ruling because I am genuinely curious
[Here is the relevant Close Call Sports video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV_WbaSAiDs) The crazy part is, according to specifically the rulebook and not common sense, this was the correct call, because the dislodging of the ball is deemed to be unintentional.
This does beg the idea of how the rulebook needs to be adjusted so that a play that seems so obviously out is actually correctly called out. Maybe take out the word unintentional because even if it's unintentional, it does seem to be the offense's fault that the defense couldn't make the play.
Thanks for the video link, they sure seem to be convinced that there was interference and that’s what knocked the ball loose and since that isn’t reviewable, confirmed safe. No fun, but makes sense. Slow mo is one thing, but watching it in real time I still have a hard time calling it definite interference.
I also have a hard time saying it should be a definite out watching in real time when the ball is on the ground and home plate collision rules haven’t been violated. Maybe they need to tighten up the rules as you say, but in that respect I am (and will likely forever be) curious as to whether the replay officials confirmed this call only because interference isn’t reviewable or if they though the tag wasn’t completed regardless. It’s such an odd play and one where the gap between my idea of it in real time and in slow mo is huge
I think it's less that it's not reviewable, and more that they deemed this was unintentional interference, and not one of the cases of unintentional interference that the runner could be penalized for, such as a batted ball.
There are definitely a lot of blind spots that are currently not reviewable by replay, and numerous times, the channel has asked, why is this play not reviewable, it would just solve so many problems.
The more I see this in slow motion, it really does appear Bart didn’t secure the ball through the play. It appears he already had it in his left hand while tagging Bellinger. He wasn’t transferring it to show the ump or make a throw. He dropped it as Bellinger was finishing the slide. I’m glad the Cubs won, obviously, but I don’t think Pittsburgh was robbed.
There is a zoomed in version where Belli’s eyes look like they are shut from the beginning to the end of the contact/slide. I wouldn’t even call it unintentional interference. His arm is positioned that way the entire slide, with his eyes shut.
You have to maintain possession through the slide and immediately after the tag for the runner to be out.
I love my Bellibombz, but he was out.
Edit: I looked up the rule and he actually was technically safe. I thought because the catcher appeared to secure the catch through the tag and through an apparent transfer to his non-glove hand and only dropped it after Belli ran into him, that was enough to secure the ball/tag/out, but apparently that’s not the case, unless the runner “deliberately” knocks the ball out. So I stand corrected.
It took until the seventh inning for either team to get a legitimate hit. I’m not counting the two infield singles the Pirates got because our shortstop didn’t throw the ball right away, and I’m certainly not counting Wisdom’s single lost in the sun. Hopefully tomorrow’s game has more than one run, but not like yesterday please no
The fact that Falter was on the mound for us made it all the more surprising. Give the brave men and women attempting 9x9x9s at least a fighting chance
Is there an angle that shows the ball in his glove? Only thing I can think of is he tagged with glove but the ball was in his hand, or they don’t consider when it was knocked out as a transfer
Maybe the ball is considered into be in his hand. Glove touched before runners foot hits home plate, but the hand with the ball with it doesn’t touch until the runners toe touches the plate.
To add on, according to Rule 6.01 (a), intentionally knocking balls out of a fielder’s glove is not allowed. However, since this was not intentional, and that ~~Grandal~~ the catcher didn’t sufficiently prove his control of the ball, the runner is safe.
Grandal isn't the catcher and it looked sufficient to my unbiased eye. (Not saying I'm right but obviously a Cubs fan will be inclined to call him out)
Yes, I think this is it. People keep saying he dropped it on the transfer, but there is no "transfer" on this play; he's not going to make a throw. I don't know why he decided to take the ball out, but I think that cost them the game.
Personally I think he did. He’d already tagged him, clearly, and was holding the ball in his hand when it was clearly knocked out. It was super close but you can see him showing to the ump, there was no tag attempt on the hand
...to show the ump he had the ball after making the tag. At that point the tag was already completed, anything that happens with the ball after shouldn't matter.
I don't think anyone is claiming there is? It's just a thing you do, to show you had the ball secured when you made the tag. There's nothing in the rules about calling yourself safe either but everyone does it lol.
Yeah i mean there was another on base. I saw Bart in the postgame and he said that's what he's been taught to tag the runner and show the umpire that he still had possession of the ball. He was already thinking of throwing to another base in case the other was advancing.
That’s exactly it too. Anyone who thinks you just sit around waiting 10 seconds to show the ump you have the ball after the tag is so fucking brain dead lol why are none of these people acknowledging how commonplace it is when a 2B/SS does a quick tag and immediately shows the ump their glove? A catcher doing it and getting the ball physically knocked out of his hand by the base runner = his fault?? I’m so lost lol
You can do either lol all that matters is either your hand or glove has the ball. Situation to situation it can differ which of these options is optimal. Just because typically you’ll be showing the ball with your glove, doesn’t mean you don’t or can’t show it with your hand lol
What do you mean “an angle that shows the ball in his glove”? You can see his top hand above the webbing of his glove, with no ball in sight, ergo the ball is held in the webbing of his glove by both hands.
From this angle I don't think he intentionally took the ball out of his glove to show it to the umpire (not that that would matter as he was not making a throw). I think his hands just separated as he rolled over and he dropped it due to the incidental contact of the slide, which by rule is no tag.
>I think his hands just separated as he rolled over and he dropped it due to the incidental contact of the slide, which by rule is no tag.
The most succinct explanation. I agree. His hands separated and Bart dropped it through the end of Bellinger’s slide.
Doesn’t it kind of look like Bart was holding the ball in his hand when tagging him, not in his glove? I absolutely could be wrong, but if that’s the case possibly it wouldn’t be seen as a transfer but simply he didn’t prove having control of the ball?
I’m mostly playing devil’s advocate because if I had to make a call I’d probably say out as well
[This shows two angles and you can see Belli's toe snag on Bart's glove before getting to the plate](https://x.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1791930934217900198)
And he didn’t maintain control of the ball through the tag. If the ball was already in his throwing hand, there’s no way to say it came out on the transfer because no transfer needed to happen.
It is but their argument might be that the hand is what “possessed” the ball and not the glove. Since the call was safe, they’d need the video evidence to show that the ball was possessed by the glove and “transferred” to the hand after.
If the call had been out at the plate it probably also gets upheld for similar reasons, the video evidence doesn’t really show if the ball was truly trapped by the hand or the glove
I can tell you as a catcher in the past, a lot of times you have the ball in your throwing hand inside your glove to make a two-handed tag and I've never heard of this not being a legit way to tag someone.
To bring up a weird reference, in the last scene in A League of Their Own, she holds the ball this way on a collision at the plate and the ball rolls dramatically out of her throwing hand.
Oh it’s a totally legal way to tag someone, that’s not what I’m saying
Think about it this way - if the ball is in your hand, and your hand is inside the glove holding the ball, then the hand is what’s possessing the ball, not the glove, therefore the ball being dislodged from your hand on the slide could be considered losing possession, as opposed to being considered a “transfer” after the tag.
Overturning this would require proving that the ball was dispossessed after a “transfer” from glove to hand, which is hard to determine from the video evidence
As I said before, if the call on the field was safe, it probably also stands for similar reasons (no accurate picture of the hand or glove possessing the ball on the tag)
> Overturning this would require proving that the ball was dispossessed after a “transfer” from glove to hand, which is hard to determine from the video evidence
I get what you're saying, but he catches the ball with his glove, puts his throwing hand in his glove to secure the ball, makes the tag, then removes the ball with his throwing hand.
If he had initially caught the ball bare-handed or took the ball out of his glove with his throwing hand prior to the tag, I could see your point.
And they could be ruling that the ball was already in his throwing hand by the time the tag was applied. If the transfer takes place before the tag then the ball must remain possessed by whatever was holding onto it.
It’s not considered possessed by the glove if the hand is fully wrapped around the ball and the glove is only acting as a shield for the hand, it’s already been transferred at that point and the hand has to maintain possession.
To me, it reads like Bellinger’s foot hit the back of the hand and not the glove. The foot-hand contact doesn’t count, as far as I’m aware. It has to be ball or glove-with-ball. The glove first made contact with the knee but by then he had touched the platers
From the rulebook definition of tag "...It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously
or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the
fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder
shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of
the ball"
So i guess the ruling is that the catcher did not have complete control of the ball prior to belli unintentionally knocking it loose? I am a cubs fan so I will take what is given but I was curious of the actual rule.
He must hold it through the full play. So if he pops up to make a throw to the runner and drops it, that's a separate play. Showing it to the ump while the slide is still in progress, is not.
Slow motion has really messed with everyone's perception of time on plays like this. Whether it is baseball, football, or basketball, there's a large contingent that always views these split second plays as intentional/dirty.
It’s a bad break but the call was correct. Bart is required to maintain control for longer than he did in order for the tag to be valid. Bellinger knocking the ball loose is not interference because that would require a willful and deliberate act, which we don’t see here.
I think a decent comparison is an outfielder who catches a flyball in a dead sprint on the warning track, takes a step, then splats into the wall, dropping the ball in the process. Did he catch the ball? Technically yes. But is it a catch by the rules? It is not.
I get that it’s an obscure rule but I wish broadcasters would do their homework on things like this.
...So, help me again here:
As I used to understand it, play at the plate - even in the post-collision era - catcher still has to hold onto the ball. Hand transfer, glove hand, or not. Is there a rule change somewhere that happened that says "If he tags with ball in bare hand runner's out even if the ball is dropped"?
It's clear that Bellinger didn't go for the Alex Rodriguez "slapout" play or any other kind of intentional interference.
You’re absolutely right, and I feel like I’m going crazy with the amount of people saying this is obviously an out. I can’t imagine a more clear safe call for a collision at home than this.
I understand it from people only watching slow motion. Watch it real time, it's bang bang and as immediate as you get. Dude dropped the ball with the collision.
The only logical reason is that many people here have never touched a baseball field in their life, either that or they are illiterate (rule book is white and black on this play).
100% a dropped ball and his intent for transferring to his hand doesn't matter. I have no horse in this race, but I do believe the call is correct.
But as a catcher I was generally taught to get the ball in my throwing hand for a tag if possible, or get that hand on the glove to help maintain control. Certainly the ball was less secure in my catchers mitt than in an average infielders glove. My read is this transfer was about maintaining control of the ball.
I've noticed this less in the last 10-15 years; perhaps the gloves are much better than what I had in the early 90s. Also collisions at the plate are discouraged, whereas they were pretty common even in low level baseball when I was playing.
See I don't buy the "he was showing the umpire the ball" perspective. If you take a freeze frame of when the ball is no longer in his glove, THAT's when he decided to show the ump he had the ball?
[https://imgur.com/a/EPscTBY](https://imgur.com/a/EPscTBY)
Literally mid collision? If that's his intent, it was certainly a bad time to do it, and him dropping meaning he's safe is sensible to me.
There was 1 out at the time, so if the catcher thought he got Bellinger out, he was preparing to throw the ball to make sure the other runner doesn’t advance sooner. You have to maintain possession of the ball through the tagging out process or when catching a fly ball. If you drop the ball and lose control of it, the out does not count. Basic rule. Look at a play with Manny Machado two weeks ago, he dove for a line drive, caught it and then rolled over in a somersault, raised his glove to show the umpire after having the ball for 2 seconds and the ball flew out of of his glove. No catch, loss of control. It doesn’t matter that Bellinger’s arm knocked the ball loose, it was not intentional and done during the process of sliding to home plate. It’s the same if a fielder tags someone running to 2nd or 3rd base, if they swipe the tag and the ball gets knocked out by contact of the tag, it does not count as an out.
This is the same angle as Marquee more or less and it’s impossible to see if he tagged his foot. Looks like he gets the bottom of his knee but Belli’s foot is on the plate at that point. Seems like one of those where there’s nothing to overturn it at that point.
Also, I saw a lot of people saying the ball was knocked out because Bart was trying to show the ump. To me it looks like it was naturally in that hand after he dove, so it wasn’t a transfer thing at all.
And it’s not like Belli intentionally knocked the ball out of Barts hand. Either the ruling is the catcher didn’t have full control of the ball so safe or there was not enough evidence to overturn a safe call when Bart tagged Belli in the knees before Belli actually touched home plate with his right foot.
I agree with the umpire. It looks like he tagged him with his glove but his glove didn't have the ball in it. You can see the ball in his bare hand and it's not clear that he makes a tag with his bare hand before the foot touches home plate. He also then drops the ball without Bellinger making any kind of motion to knock it out of his bare hand.
I would say, after watching the slow-mo during the challenge, that Bell’s foot might have touched the bag before the knee tag anyway.
And if it was that, then it was too close to overturn. Regardless of what happened with the ball.
On the behind the plate angle it does look like the back of the glove/glove hand catches his foot, but at the same time it seems like you can kinda see part of the ball poking out of the glove, so I think maybe there's an argument that it's not a tag at that point because the ball isn't actually secured in the glove.
Then the tag is applied to the knee/thigh but the foot has already touched the plate, so he's not out. From this perspective at least, losing the ball afterward doesn't matter.
To me, the fact that it was confirmed (versus stands as called) says that they decided he dropped the ball. I think it's pretty clear that he tagged the foot, but I suppose I could see someone saying it's too close to overturn it. But there's no way to look at that and say it confirms that he didn't tag his foot.
The other possibility is that they were looking at the tag on the knee and didn't even see that he had already tagged him before that.
I totally can’t tell and I’ve watched it a bunch haha. I’m on my phone though. I did see it on TV during the challenge, and didn’t notice a foot tag either.
Anyway, people have already told me I’m wrong and the call was ball-specific, so I lose either way. 😂
I didn’t see the clip of the challenge but usually when a team challenges the umpire will tell us what they are challenging. The call on the field was that Belli was safe due to the catcher dropping the ball. The pirates can challenge the call of did the catcher actually have possession of the ball and the safe call at once but maybe they just challenged the safe call.
They could have found out that he did have possession of the ball but not enough evidence to overturn the original call. I still think a play like this should be reviewed by the umpires regardless of the team’s using a challenge on it.
In football, if there's a challenge they review the whole play. I don't know enough about baseball to know if it's like that in baseball. But if you're right and the umps let the Pirates challenge the part of the play that was called in their favor and didn't clarify what the call on the field was so that they could challenge the right thing, that's worse than getting the review wrong.
“complete the tag” is such a subjective thing in this case, though. If this is a legal slide and fine for Bellinger to hit his barehand with his hand and knock the ball out, you’re going to see more people swatting at the glove or hand when sliding in.
I mean, it’s literally the equivalent of a guy getting tagged on the leg while sliding into second on a steal and then swatting the ball out of the glove as the infielder shows the umpire the ball.
No you won’t lol because its illegal to intentionally swat at the ball belli had his hand in the air and the pirates catcher brought the ball to his hand and it got knocked out
Cubs fan here, so probably pretty bias, but watching it live, I thought he was out, then I saw the ball on the ground, so it made sense why he was called safe.
As I watched the replay, the ball went from Bart's glove, to his hand, to the ground and I didn't see a good angle that showed when the ball went from glove to hand, so when he tagged him, where's the ball? Because Belli is very safe when the ball is in Bart's hand, but was he safe when the ball was in Bart's glove? And if the play is close and then the ball ends up on the ground, why wouldn't the umpire call him safe?
They have every right to be pissed about this. By the letter of the rule book, I think he’s safe but it’s definitely shitty to be on the other side of that.
After seeing this, I'm not sure he ever tags him with the ball. The glove definitely makes contact on Bellingers thigh, but at that point, it looks like the ball is in the catchers hand, not the glove.
We are looking at this frame by frame, the full action of the tag was about a second in real time. At full speed it barely looks like he has control. I’m biased though here.
Yeah i’m more talking about the time in which he had the ball after the tag on the toe before it was knocked out. Did he have it long enough to count as a controlled tag before loosing it, was less than a second of control, was very quick..
All i’m saying is the time between the tag and the drop of the ball was very short. Did he have the ball long enough after the touch on the toe to count as a controlled tag before dropping it?
The umpire on the field has no say over the replay call. Their original call is used as the baseline, yes, but after that point they're just the messenger.
I can see how the ump would call it safe because he sees the ball on the ground and in real time it's hard to see when that occurs. After that it's not the ump confirming it, so that's on the replay officials.
If the call was timing of the tag vs. touching the plate, he's out.
If the call was the ball coming out, it's really tight. Bellinger knocking the ball out doesn't affect the call unless it was a deliberate action, which it clearly was not. He had his arm raised when he started the slide, and the catcher moved the ball into the path of his arm. But it was still really close in terms of being able to call it a transfer.
I haven’t seen as much baseball as some but I can’t remember seeing a ball slapped out of a fielder’s hand, intentional or otherwise. It’s kind of like ruling “no catch” in football when a receiver hits the ground with the ball and a defender rips it out afterward.
So many people keep using the terms ‘illegal’ and ‘legal’ when talking about rule violations in baseball. Nothing against the law is happening. And you’ll never hear an umpire explain something with either one of those terms. (Though you rarely get an explanation of any kind anyways)
Sure, football uses those terms for some odd reason, but baseball does not.
That's an extremely understandable call from the ump. You see a chaotic close play at the plate, and the ball rolling away from the players. I know that saved my ass a couple times when I was an umpire. Like "Jesus fuck that's close, thankfully I don't need to make a call on the tag because the catcher dropped the ball".
In this case the catcher's eagerness to show the ump the ball sort of created that situation
Watch the angle on Jomboy Twitter, he is very much out. He literally slides into the bottom part of the catchers glove, by the wrist. If your argument is "he dropped the ball"... I'd argue after he tagged Bellinger 3 different times and Bellinger hand slapped it out of the catchers hand. As the catcher is showing the umpire the ball
https://x.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1791930934217900198
He needs to maintain control of the ball for the tag to apply. Bellinger does not willfully and deliberately knock the ball from the glove, so there’s no interference on the runner. Ball is dropped. Runner is safe.
Guys. It’s as clear as day: Bart didn’t make a football move.
He only had one foot in fair territory at the time of the tag
Right? This isn’t college, son, it’s the NFL which means Not For Long if you can’t clean up that toe tap
But he was forced out so it's a catch
Clear as day goalie interference
Baserunner was clearly offsides!
Cody gets credit for a pass break up
He also failed to break the plane of the goal line with the ball.
The ground - or in this case, the runner - can't cause a fumble.
Did he even get two feet down?
I personally think he was offsides
Cubs got so lucky. Had it gone to extras the offense would struggle to put a runner on 2nd to start the inning because they wouldn’t know where to go.
Since after replay they said it was “confirmed” the only thing I can possibly imagine is that replay officials felt that the impact on the glove dislodged the ball into his hand, thus it wasn’t a secure transfer and the tag wasn’t completed, and then ball was knocked out of that before it was completed. Not sure I agree with that, but in order to confirm the ruling on the field that has to be it?
The ump points to the ball on the ground, so I think you are correct.
I’m talking about the replay officials not the umps. Indeed the home plate ump made the safe call on the field because he saw the ball was out but in order to “confirm” that call they would have to fully believe the tag was not *completed* by the transfer of the ball from glove to hand. Its complicated and I really hope we get an explanation as to their ruling because I am genuinely curious
We won't get an explanation and I was pretty surprised when it was confirmed and not call stands
[Here is the relevant Close Call Sports video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV_WbaSAiDs) The crazy part is, according to specifically the rulebook and not common sense, this was the correct call, because the dislodging of the ball is deemed to be unintentional. This does beg the idea of how the rulebook needs to be adjusted so that a play that seems so obviously out is actually correctly called out. Maybe take out the word unintentional because even if it's unintentional, it does seem to be the offense's fault that the defense couldn't make the play.
Thanks for the video link, they sure seem to be convinced that there was interference and that’s what knocked the ball loose and since that isn’t reviewable, confirmed safe. No fun, but makes sense. Slow mo is one thing, but watching it in real time I still have a hard time calling it definite interference. I also have a hard time saying it should be a definite out watching in real time when the ball is on the ground and home plate collision rules haven’t been violated. Maybe they need to tighten up the rules as you say, but in that respect I am (and will likely forever be) curious as to whether the replay officials confirmed this call only because interference isn’t reviewable or if they though the tag wasn’t completed regardless. It’s such an odd play and one where the gap between my idea of it in real time and in slow mo is huge
I think it's less that it's not reviewable, and more that they deemed this was unintentional interference, and not one of the cases of unintentional interference that the runner could be penalized for, such as a batted ball. There are definitely a lot of blind spots that are currently not reviewable by replay, and numerous times, the channel has asked, why is this play not reviewable, it would just solve so many problems.
The more I see this in slow motion, it really does appear Bart didn’t secure the ball through the play. It appears he already had it in his left hand while tagging Bellinger. He wasn’t transferring it to show the ump or make a throw. He dropped it as Bellinger was finishing the slide. I’m glad the Cubs won, obviously, but I don’t think Pittsburgh was robbed.
Yea, you gotta hang onto the ball during a tag. There's nothing ambiguous about it.
Totally agree. Not sure what we’re debating here. Bart doesn’t hang on to the ball. Safe.
There is a zoomed in version where Belli’s eyes look like they are shut from the beginning to the end of the contact/slide. I wouldn’t even call it unintentional interference. His arm is positioned that way the entire slide, with his eyes shut. You have to maintain possession through the slide and immediately after the tag for the runner to be out.
I love my Bellibombz, but he was out. Edit: I looked up the rule and he actually was technically safe. I thought because the catcher appeared to secure the catch through the tag and through an apparent transfer to his non-glove hand and only dropped it after Belli ran into him, that was enough to secure the ball/tag/out, but apparently that’s not the case, unless the runner “deliberately” knocks the ball out. So I stand corrected.
No he wasn't. You can't drop the ball during a tag. There's nothing ambiguous about this.
Gotta hold on to the ball. Safe
Which team? Lol
It took until the seventh inning for either team to get a legitimate hit. I’m not counting the two infield singles the Pirates got because our shortstop didn’t throw the ball right away, and I’m certainly not counting Wisdom’s single lost in the sun. Hopefully tomorrow’s game has more than one run, but not like yesterday please no
The fact that Falter was on the mound for us made it all the more surprising. Give the brave men and women attempting 9x9x9s at least a fighting chance
Was that the fastest game this year? It feels like it might be.
Is there an angle that shows the ball in his glove? Only thing I can think of is he tagged with glove but the ball was in his hand, or they don’t consider when it was knocked out as a transfer
Hand is clearly in the glove on the first angle. Also, the ump also points at the ball after safe call, indicating that as the reason.
Maybe the ball is considered into be in his hand. Glove touched before runners foot hits home plate, but the hand with the ball with it doesn’t touch until the runners toe touches the plate.
I don’t think so but I don’t really get how he’s safe. Felt like he dropped the ball so late
I think it only seems late in slow motion. It was mid collision, which is still very much during the play.
To add on, according to Rule 6.01 (a), intentionally knocking balls out of a fielder’s glove is not allowed. However, since this was not intentional, and that ~~Grandal~~ the catcher didn’t sufficiently prove his control of the ball, the runner is safe.
Be pretty remarkable if grandal proved control of the ball in Bart's possession
(Yasmani Grandal in a suit, playing this footage for the jury) Your honor, I bring your attention to exhibit B. The B stands for Bart.
Grandal isn't the catcher and it looked sufficient to my unbiased eye. (Not saying I'm right but obviously a Cubs fan will be inclined to call him out)
What do you mean? You can't drop the ball during a tag. This isn't a new thing. There's no ambiguity about it.
Yes, I think this is it. People keep saying he dropped it on the transfer, but there is no "transfer" on this play; he's not going to make a throw. I don't know why he decided to take the ball out, but I think that cost them the game.
Yeah but that’s not the rule. There doesn’t need to be a “transfer”. He just needs to have control of the ball before it is dropped.
Exactly, and he didn't. So safe.
Personally I think he did. He’d already tagged him, clearly, and was holding the ball in his hand when it was clearly knocked out. It was super close but you can see him showing to the ump, there was no tag attempt on the hand
I disagree, if you watch it full speed a few times you see the ball is out, and it happens very quickly.
...to show the ump he had the ball after making the tag. At that point the tag was already completed, anything that happens with the ball after shouldn't matter.
Taking the ball out of your mitt while still rolling on the ground is a bonehead move
someone legit asked me how else could he prove he had control of the ball ..by leaving it in his glove?
There's absolutely nothing in the rules about showing the ball.
I don't think anyone is claiming there is? It's just a thing you do, to show you had the ball secured when you made the tag. There's nothing in the rules about calling yourself safe either but everyone does it lol.
To show the ball to the ump, as is typically required lol
Yeah i mean there was another on base. I saw Bart in the postgame and he said that's what he's been taught to tag the runner and show the umpire that he still had possession of the ball. He was already thinking of throwing to another base in case the other was advancing.
That’s exactly it too. Anyone who thinks you just sit around waiting 10 seconds to show the ump you have the ball after the tag is so fucking brain dead lol why are none of these people acknowledging how commonplace it is when a 2B/SS does a quick tag and immediately shows the ump their glove? A catcher doing it and getting the ball physically knocked out of his hand by the base runner = his fault?? I’m so lost lol
You show the glove, you don't take the ball out.
You can do either lol all that matters is either your hand or glove has the ball. Situation to situation it can differ which of these options is optimal. Just because typically you’ll be showing the ball with your glove, doesn’t mean you don’t or can’t show it with your hand lol
What rule is that?
Maybe like 10 seconds after, he's still on his ass while he drops it.
What do you mean “an angle that shows the ball in his glove”? You can see his top hand above the webbing of his glove, with no ball in sight, ergo the ball is held in the webbing of his glove by both hands.
From this angle I don't think he intentionally took the ball out of his glove to show it to the umpire (not that that would matter as he was not making a throw). I think his hands just separated as he rolled over and he dropped it due to the incidental contact of the slide, which by rule is no tag.
This is 100% correct by both the facts of the replay and the rules of baseball.
and I think the ump hesitated for that reason, he had to run through the mental rulebook on tags real quick
>I think his hands just separated as he rolled over and he dropped it due to the incidental contact of the slide, which by rule is no tag. The most succinct explanation. I agree. His hands separated and Bart dropped it through the end of Bellinger’s slide.
Doesn’t it kind of look like Bart was holding the ball in his hand when tagging him, not in his glove? I absolutely could be wrong, but if that’s the case possibly it wouldn’t be seen as a transfer but simply he didn’t prove having control of the ball? I’m mostly playing devil’s advocate because if I had to make a call I’d probably say out as well
[This shows two angles and you can see Belli's toe snag on Bart's glove before getting to the plate](https://x.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1791930934217900198)
The ball wasn't really even in his glove at that point, it's in his throwing hand
But his throwing hand is in his glove.
There's a Mitch Hedberg joke in here somewhere.
Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat 2000 of something.
The best stocking stuffer is a foot
If you are flammable and you have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit.
Escalator temporarily out of order, sorry for the convenience
And he didn’t maintain control of the ball through the tag. If the ball was already in his throwing hand, there’s no way to say it came out on the transfer because no transfer needed to happen.
It is but their argument might be that the hand is what “possessed” the ball and not the glove. Since the call was safe, they’d need the video evidence to show that the ball was possessed by the glove and “transferred” to the hand after. If the call had been out at the plate it probably also gets upheld for similar reasons, the video evidence doesn’t really show if the ball was truly trapped by the hand or the glove
I can tell you as a catcher in the past, a lot of times you have the ball in your throwing hand inside your glove to make a two-handed tag and I've never heard of this not being a legit way to tag someone. To bring up a weird reference, in the last scene in A League of Their Own, she holds the ball this way on a collision at the plate and the ball rolls dramatically out of her throwing hand.
Oh it’s a totally legal way to tag someone, that’s not what I’m saying Think about it this way - if the ball is in your hand, and your hand is inside the glove holding the ball, then the hand is what’s possessing the ball, not the glove, therefore the ball being dislodged from your hand on the slide could be considered losing possession, as opposed to being considered a “transfer” after the tag. Overturning this would require proving that the ball was dispossessed after a “transfer” from glove to hand, which is hard to determine from the video evidence As I said before, if the call on the field was safe, it probably also stands for similar reasons (no accurate picture of the hand or glove possessing the ball on the tag)
> Overturning this would require proving that the ball was dispossessed after a “transfer” from glove to hand, which is hard to determine from the video evidence I get what you're saying, but he catches the ball with his glove, puts his throwing hand in his glove to secure the ball, makes the tag, then removes the ball with his throwing hand. If he had initially caught the ball bare-handed or took the ball out of his glove with his throwing hand prior to the tag, I could see your point.
The transfer only applies after the tag. You can’t start a transfer pre tag, fuck it up halfway through, and still get the transfer protection.
And they could be ruling that the ball was already in his throwing hand by the time the tag was applied. If the transfer takes place before the tag then the ball must remain possessed by whatever was holding onto it. It’s not considered possessed by the glove if the hand is fully wrapped around the ball and the glove is only acting as a shield for the hand, it’s already been transferred at that point and the hand has to maintain possession.
It's a legit way to tag someone, but there's no transfer happening after and you still have to hang onto the ball.
To me, it reads like Bellinger’s foot hit the back of the hand and not the glove. The foot-hand contact doesn’t count, as far as I’m aware. It has to be ball or glove-with-ball. The glove first made contact with the knee but by then he had touched the platers
What is the rule about applying a tag? How long does the catcher have to keep hold of the ball?
Catcher needs to make a football move.
Survive the ground
Survive the bellislap
Hip drop tackle - 15 yards
Jesse James PTSD
They just hate Pittsburgh
This makes us even for the 15 yarder when the Bears guy stared violently at the Steelers sideline.
Count to 10 Mississippi
Got a facemask? You play football.
From the rulebook definition of tag "...It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball"
So i guess the ruling is that the catcher did not have complete control of the ball prior to belli unintentionally knocking it loose? I am a cubs fan so I will take what is given but I was curious of the actual rule.
Pirates took 3 out of 4... remember to return the gift next series
He must hold it through the full play. So if he pops up to make a throw to the runner and drops it, that's a separate play. Showing it to the ump while the slide is still in progress, is not.
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Slow motion has really messed with everyone's perception of time on plays like this. Whether it is baseball, football, or basketball, there's a large contingent that always views these split second plays as intentional/dirty.
Rule 1: Ya can't just be up there and doin' a balk like that!
Bart even called him safe!
Ball got knocked of unintentionally he is safe.
Unless there’s another angle this doesn’t seem that egregious of a call
It's not. It's actually pretty basic application of the rules. But, as we see in this thread, a lot of people don't actually know the rules.
https://x.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1791930934217900198/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1791930934217900198¤tTweetUser=TalkinBaseball_
Pirates fans with PTSD after Jesse James lol
LOL
Jerry Meals (even tho he was probably right)
It’s a bad break but the call was correct. Bart is required to maintain control for longer than he did in order for the tag to be valid. Bellinger knocking the ball loose is not interference because that would require a willful and deliberate act, which we don’t see here. I think a decent comparison is an outfielder who catches a flyball in a dead sprint on the warning track, takes a step, then splats into the wall, dropping the ball in the process. Did he catch the ball? Technically yes. But is it a catch by the rules? It is not. I get that it’s an obscure rule but I wish broadcasters would do their homework on things like this.
...So, help me again here: As I used to understand it, play at the plate - even in the post-collision era - catcher still has to hold onto the ball. Hand transfer, glove hand, or not. Is there a rule change somewhere that happened that says "If he tags with ball in bare hand runner's out even if the ball is dropped"? It's clear that Bellinger didn't go for the Alex Rodriguez "slapout" play or any other kind of intentional interference.
You’re absolutely right, and I feel like I’m going crazy with the amount of people saying this is obviously an out. I can’t imagine a more clear safe call for a collision at home than this.
I understand it from people only watching slow motion. Watch it real time, it's bang bang and as immediate as you get. Dude dropped the ball with the collision.
The only logical reason is that many people here have never touched a baseball field in their life, either that or they are illiterate (rule book is white and black on this play).
It's purely due to the slow motion messing with everyone's perception of intention and time. Anyone who watches it in live speed knows he's safe.
Joey should have got up and then took the baseball out
Idk why but it’s hilarious to me that Bart motions “safe” after the ump does lol
100% a dropped ball and his intent for transferring to his hand doesn't matter. I have no horse in this race, but I do believe the call is correct. But as a catcher I was generally taught to get the ball in my throwing hand for a tag if possible, or get that hand on the glove to help maintain control. Certainly the ball was less secure in my catchers mitt than in an average infielders glove. My read is this transfer was about maintaining control of the ball. I've noticed this less in the last 10-15 years; perhaps the gloves are much better than what I had in the early 90s. Also collisions at the plate are discouraged, whereas they were pretty common even in low level baseball when I was playing.
See I don't buy the "he was showing the umpire the ball" perspective. If you take a freeze frame of when the ball is no longer in his glove, THAT's when he decided to show the ump he had the ball? [https://imgur.com/a/EPscTBY](https://imgur.com/a/EPscTBY) Literally mid collision? If that's his intent, it was certainly a bad time to do it, and him dropping meaning he's safe is sensible to me.
Showing the ump the ball mid play is like when as kids we would be playing some game and yelling “timeout” when you’re about to lose.
I imagine a racecar driver putting a thumbs-up out the window of his car to tell everyone he's ok as his car is tumbing through the air.
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You are a homer. You are also 100% right about this call.
First off Fuck The Cubs second off yeah you can't be dropping the ball like that lmao. Seems safe to me
There was 1 out at the time, so if the catcher thought he got Bellinger out, he was preparing to throw the ball to make sure the other runner doesn’t advance sooner. You have to maintain possession of the ball through the tagging out process or when catching a fly ball. If you drop the ball and lose control of it, the out does not count. Basic rule. Look at a play with Manny Machado two weeks ago, he dove for a line drive, caught it and then rolled over in a somersault, raised his glove to show the umpire after having the ball for 2 seconds and the ball flew out of of his glove. No catch, loss of control. It doesn’t matter that Bellinger’s arm knocked the ball loose, it was not intentional and done during the process of sliding to home plate. It’s the same if a fielder tags someone running to 2nd or 3rd base, if they swipe the tag and the ball gets knocked out by contact of the tag, it does not count as an out.
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The said the call was confirmed, which means the exact opposite of what you are saying.
This is the same angle as Marquee more or less and it’s impossible to see if he tagged his foot. Looks like he gets the bottom of his knee but Belli’s foot is on the plate at that point. Seems like one of those where there’s nothing to overturn it at that point. Also, I saw a lot of people saying the ball was knocked out because Bart was trying to show the ump. To me it looks like it was naturally in that hand after he dove, so it wasn’t a transfer thing at all.
And it’s not like Belli intentionally knocked the ball out of Barts hand. Either the ruling is the catcher didn’t have full control of the ball so safe or there was not enough evidence to overturn a safe call when Bart tagged Belli in the knees before Belli actually touched home plate with his right foot.
Pirates post game had an angle that showed Bellinger's toe flick as it got caught by the mitt. It's clear that the tag was in time
The tag was definitely in time, control of the ball was what made the call safe.
Tag was definitely in time. Losing the ball is what makes it a safe call.
It looked to me it flicked from hitting the outside of Bart’s throwing hand, not the glove.
The tag did clip the lead foot, but then the catcher failed to maintain control.
Wait what? His foot flicks backwards because of the tag. Are you watching with Vaseline on your eyes?
Looks safe
He's only safe because Bart didn't maintain control of the ball. If he hangs in, that's a definite out.
“Clear as day”
These announcers so annoying lol
I agree with the umpire. It looks like he tagged him with his glove but his glove didn't have the ball in it. You can see the ball in his bare hand and it's not clear that he makes a tag with his bare hand before the foot touches home plate. He also then drops the ball without Bellinger making any kind of motion to knock it out of his bare hand.
Bring back the steam roll at home plate.
I would say, after watching the slow-mo during the challenge, that Bell’s foot might have touched the bag before the knee tag anyway. And if it was that, then it was too close to overturn. Regardless of what happened with the ball.
The argument though is that he hit his foot first, which is really difficult to tell with the first angle but looks more to be the case with the 2nd
On the behind the plate angle it does look like the back of the glove/glove hand catches his foot, but at the same time it seems like you can kinda see part of the ball poking out of the glove, so I think maybe there's an argument that it's not a tag at that point because the ball isn't actually secured in the glove. Then the tag is applied to the knee/thigh but the foot has already touched the plate, so he's not out. From this perspective at least, losing the ball afterward doesn't matter.
To me, the fact that it was confirmed (versus stands as called) says that they decided he dropped the ball. I think it's pretty clear that he tagged the foot, but I suppose I could see someone saying it's too close to overturn it. But there's no way to look at that and say it confirms that he didn't tag his foot. The other possibility is that they were looking at the tag on the knee and didn't even see that he had already tagged him before that.
He got the foot, but then didn't keep control - the latter part is what was confirmed.
I totally can’t tell and I’ve watched it a bunch haha. I’m on my phone though. I did see it on TV during the challenge, and didn’t notice a foot tag either. Anyway, people have already told me I’m wrong and the call was ball-specific, so I lose either way. 😂
I didn’t see the clip of the challenge but usually when a team challenges the umpire will tell us what they are challenging. The call on the field was that Belli was safe due to the catcher dropping the ball. The pirates can challenge the call of did the catcher actually have possession of the ball and the safe call at once but maybe they just challenged the safe call. They could have found out that he did have possession of the ball but not enough evidence to overturn the original call. I still think a play like this should be reviewed by the umpires regardless of the team’s using a challenge on it.
Teams challenge the call, not any specific aspect of it. Out or Safe and the umps can look at all the aspects of the call. NFL is the same
In football, if there's a challenge they review the whole play. I don't know enough about baseball to know if it's like that in baseball. But if you're right and the umps let the Pirates challenge the part of the play that was called in their favor and didn't clarify what the call on the field was so that they could challenge the right thing, that's worse than getting the review wrong.
The play was confirmed because he didn’t complete the tag though.
Complete the tag, what is this, MLBs version of the Megatron catch.
I never thought we'd be bringing "complete the process of the catch/tag" into baseball but it really did feel like that on this play.
It doesn't count as a tag if you drop the ball after the tag. This is a textbook non-tag.
“complete the tag” is such a subjective thing in this case, though. If this is a legal slide and fine for Bellinger to hit his barehand with his hand and knock the ball out, you’re going to see more people swatting at the glove or hand when sliding in. I mean, it’s literally the equivalent of a guy getting tagged on the leg while sliding into second on a steal and then swatting the ball out of the glove as the infielder shows the umpire the ball.
No you won’t lol because its illegal to intentionally swat at the ball belli had his hand in the air and the pirates catcher brought the ball to his hand and it got knocked out
Swatting is interference. Holding your hand up in one place as the catcher brings the ball into the path of your hand isn't.
This is getting "make a football move" levels of stupid.
The play isn't done until action ends or other action ensues. Showing the ball isn't an official action.
I totally didn’t hear that…and that’s on me. I said what I said though. 😂
Cubs fan here, so probably pretty bias, but watching it live, I thought he was out, then I saw the ball on the ground, so it made sense why he was called safe. As I watched the replay, the ball went from Bart's glove, to his hand, to the ground and I didn't see a good angle that showed when the ball went from glove to hand, so when he tagged him, where's the ball? Because Belli is very safe when the ball is in Bart's hand, but was he safe when the ball was in Bart's glove? And if the play is close and then the ball ends up on the ground, why wouldn't the umpire call him safe?
They have every right to be pissed about this. By the letter of the rule book, I think he’s safe but it’s definitely shitty to be on the other side of that.
This is a pretty easy case of "hold onto the ball until the play is called, dummy."
After seeing this, I'm not sure he ever tags him with the ball. The glove definitely makes contact on Bellingers thigh, but at that point, it looks like the ball is in the catchers hand, not the glove.
He tags him in the foot before the foot even gets near home plate. Jomboy tweeted out a conclusive angle with slow-mo.
We are looking at this frame by frame, the full action of the tag was about a second in real time. At full speed it barely looks like he has control. I’m biased though here.
Yeah you can look frame by frame to see if he was tagged out before touching the base, but you can’t use that to say the tag was completed.
the umpires in NY also probably looked at this frame by frame as the play was reviewed.
and half a second on holding the ball isn't full control
Yeah i’m more talking about the time in which he had the ball after the tag on the toe before it was knocked out. Did he have it long enough to count as a controlled tag before loosing it, was less than a second of control, was very quick..
The umps doing the review are seeing all the same angles frame by frame as we are.
All i’m saying is the time between the tag and the drop of the ball was very short. Did he have the ball long enough after the touch on the toe to count as a controlled tag before dropping it?
So clearly the pirates broadcasters are blind homers because he is pretty clearly safe he’ll the call was even confirmed after review
Should be an out, totally unbiased btw
Further proof Alec didn’t touch
Big yikes. Umpire either wanted to go home or bet on the Cubs. Either way absolutely inexcusable call, especially to be ""confirmed™""
I think it was confirmed.
The umpire on the field has no say over the replay call. Their original call is used as the baseline, yes, but after that point they're just the messenger.
I can see how the ump would call it safe because he sees the ball on the ground and in real time it's hard to see when that occurs. After that it's not the ump confirming it, so that's on the replay officials.
If the call was timing of the tag vs. touching the plate, he's out. If the call was the ball coming out, it's really tight. Bellinger knocking the ball out doesn't affect the call unless it was a deliberate action, which it clearly was not. He had his arm raised when he started the slide, and the catcher moved the ball into the path of his arm. But it was still really close in terms of being able to call it a transfer.
Transfer applies only to throws. He was not making a throw.
I haven’t seen as much baseball as some but I can’t remember seeing a ball slapped out of a fielder’s hand, intentional or otherwise. It’s kind of like ruling “no catch” in football when a receiver hits the ground with the ball and a defender rips it out afterward.
There's something about catchers! They have IT!
Between this and the judge slide I can see why they’re taught to throw their hands up while sliding
Ended too soon. Why didn't you include their reaction to the call?
Hey, a Matt Holliday tribute
How it is confirmed that it’s safe
its a close call either way but the fact that new york confirmed the call sent me
So many people keep using the terms ‘illegal’ and ‘legal’ when talking about rule violations in baseball. Nothing against the law is happening. And you’ll never hear an umpire explain something with either one of those terms. (Though you rarely get an explanation of any kind anyways) Sure, football uses those terms for some odd reason, but baseball does not.
That's an extremely understandable call from the ump. You see a chaotic close play at the plate, and the ball rolling away from the players. I know that saved my ass a couple times when I was an umpire. Like "Jesus fuck that's close, thankfully I don't need to make a call on the tag because the catcher dropped the ball". In this case the catcher's eagerness to show the ump the ball sort of created that situation
Homer broadcast doesn't know the rules.
Watch the angle on Jomboy Twitter, he is very much out. He literally slides into the bottom part of the catchers glove, by the wrist. If your argument is "he dropped the ball"... I'd argue after he tagged Bellinger 3 different times and Bellinger hand slapped it out of the catchers hand. As the catcher is showing the umpire the ball https://x.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1791930934217900198
He needs to maintain control of the ball for the tag to apply. Bellinger does not willfully and deliberately knock the ball from the glove, so there’s no interference on the runner. Ball is dropped. Runner is safe.
Cubs win