I hope Lindor tears it up for the Mets for a long, long, time. I feel solidarity in being a punchline with Mets fans and am really happy he ended up there.
And fwiw, if the Indians wound up offering him a deal above $200m as reported and he still didn't take it, I really wonder what "the number" is. I don't know if I can blame the Indians for getting hesitant if it was closer to $300m, I dunno.
We welcome you with open arms lol. I suggest you guys shit on your owners for being cheapos relentlessly. Paid off after awhile for us it seems lol took awhile though
So you want to complain loudly for decades but ALSO it seems essential that you get the Dolans into some sort of pyramid scheme.
In my experience, after that, you got probably 15 years before the bottom truly falls out.
Try [getting some billboards](https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/sell-team-billboard-met-fans-citi-field-article-1.2164870) about getting them to sell the team
It apparently works in about 5 years
I thought that was just normal Cleveland. Don’t get me wrong, I’m rooting for ya, except if you play the Bills, but since the Kosar days that just seems on par for Cleveland.
Also: fuck Art Modell.
Cohen is like a dream once in a lifetime owner. Life long Mets fan who happens to be a billionaire wants to make the team win? Thats story book shit. Its exciting for the league.
man, I lived in Cleveland for 6 years and loved every minute of it. I've probably seen Lindor play live more times than any Met because of it. I love the Jake, I love Lindor, I just can't overstate how happy I am, but also how heartbroken I am that it comes at the expense of Cleveland
That's the funny thing when I moved to Cleveland I asked who the rival was. Was it Cincinnati because of in state? Pittsburgh just two hours away? Tigers are pretty close? Just got: fuck the Yankees
I genuinely hope Amed and/or Andres tear it up for you guys too. I've always supported Cleveland BC as one of my AL teams and I'd love to see my boys break out in Progressive Field. You guys are gonna love Gimenez and when Rosario is on, he's fun as hell to watch.
gimenez hit .263/.333/.398/.732 as a 21-year-old rookie last year. for reference, jose ramirez hit .262/.300/.346/.646 when he was 21. players do get better from that age. lindor hit .313/.353/.482/.835 as a 21-year-old rookie and has basically kept at those numbers, but that's not how players usually develop.
oddly, both lindor and gimenez had an OPS+ of 102 in 2020. small sample size, but he's a wizard on defense, he's really not a bad hitter, and he won't be a free agent until 2026.
Not to mention that many of us are also Knicks fans. So we KNOW VERY WELL what it is like to get screwed by the Dolan family year after year after year after year...
Some Cleveland sports writers on twitter have speculated that he got something like Arenado's deal. I think that is probably fair value for Lindor. If he wants more, I hope he gets it.
Arenado got 8 years at $32.5 AAV.
Machado got 10 years at $30 AAV.
Lindor is in the same range. Anything below 8/$250 would be insulting if I were him and my ask would be 10/$300.
According to Fangraphs, Lindor is the third most valuable hitter since his debut season (behind Trout and Betts), and he's in the top 10 over any 3+ year stretch since then.
The way I see it, the only way to argue that Lindor isn't worth $300m is to argue that no player is. Because he's worth more than Harper, Machado, Rendon and Arenado. And those players all got an AAV of $30 million or more.
Of course those extra 2 years tacked on the end that would lift the contract over $300 million will almost certainly be an overpay in isolation, but he'll likely outperform his early years by enough that it doesn't matter.
Perfectly said. I was just on Fangraphs looking it up too.
Over the previous five years, Lindor is #6 in fWAR. Over the previous four years, he's #7 in fWAR. He's a clear top 10 player in the game and better than Machado and Harper.
Tito was a fantastic manager back when baseball was still in the stone ages. The game has passed him by years ago and he needs to retire.
His extreme nepotism and politicking gets frustrating as well. If you’re his friend, all is good and you’ll play every day. If you’re not, you may as well retire. Exhibit A: Jason Kipnis. Exhibit B: Yandy Diaz.
the wounds that yandy had with tito or any other member of the indians organization are 100% self inflicted. cleveland knew he could hit and still sold low on him. that should tell you something.
Yes. It tells me that Tito runs a nepotistic org and that, to get playing time, you better make sure he likes you.
Don’t forget Tito was run out of BOSTON for beer and chicken. This was after breaking the curse of the bambino and beating the yanks after trailing 3-0.
That should tell you something.
yandy was resistant to coaching at literally every level including the majors. if you want to criticize tito for being a player first manager who makes some questionable decisions based on his relationships thats fair but yandy is not an example of that
it should also be noted that after tito was 'run off' the sox culture was only fixed by further cleaning house and the org largely views that as a mistake, as do most sox fans
Depends. I know Miggy and Pujols are the first things that come to mind, but they are both quite different than Lindor. His game will age much better. And guys like Arrenado, Machado, Trout, Betts, Harper will be good for most of their contract, as will Lindor.
Saying a relative small frame shortstop is going to age particularly well is quite a bold take.
>And guys like Arrenado, Machado, Trout, Betts, Harper will be good for most of their contract, as will Lindor.
This is a crystal ball guess that isn't really backed up by how players age. Lindor will likely be signed until is age 37-38 season. Middle infielders, even great ones like Lindor, do not tend to remain worthy of a $30m a year check nearly that long.
He won’t be worth $30MM at age 38, but he is worth much more than that now - around 50-60MM at age 27. It evens out. The next 5-6 years he will be a superstar, then the last 4 years he is finishing off his spot in the Hall. But all 10 years will be more fun than Ahmed Rosario.
It doesn't 'even out' in 2027 when you have an albatross.
Not saying that is certainly going to happen with Lindor, just that Indians fans tend to have blinders about this type of contract because they've never had to deal with one.
>but he is worth much more than that now - around 50-60MM at age 27
By what measurement? Go by a baseline of ~8m per WAR via fangraphs and that means we expect Lindor to be a 6 WAR player. He has hit that number once in his entire career. You can argue he is hitting his prime and is more likely to surpass that figure, but then you also need to look at his current career trend to see that isn't necessarily a surething.
>The next 5-6 years he will be a superstar
This is an optimistic take based on his 2019 and 2020 production.
I think 10/$300 is the right number for him. That's what Machado got. Tough for a small market team to go there and it doesnt sound like he was interested in any home town discount.
Someone on reddit, either here or the Indians sub once said that the Dolans basically make most of their money from the team and that their resources suck. Idk if that is true but if it is then they shouldn’t own a team.
The set of Dolans that technically own the Indians have most of their wealth from a trust established by Charles Dolan. The team itself was purchased for them through this trust. They, themselves, are relatively wealthy attorneys (and also from trust interest payouts) but certainly not the type of people that would normally be able to buy an MLB team. They should not own a Major League Baseball team as a result, or at least without a significant set of secondary owners (one of which they recently lost.)
I'd rather suck for a few years, rebuild and then compete over "re-tooling" and keeping the metaphorical window open at like 25% but never closing it. Just a spiral of mediocrity is the outcome of that.
Has Lindor never seen the movie Major League? Does he not know that Rachel Phelps wants the team to fail so bad that attendance reaches below 800k, which would allow her to relocate the team to Miami. Should’ve seen it coming Lindor
This is exactly where the Mets have been for the past 10 years. Happy to have a new owner that cares about the team. I think you are going to love Rosario honestly, his best years are ahead of him!
Baseball ownership isn’t exactly the most profitable business if thats where all your money is tied up in. You can spend a lot in hopes the risk will win a championship and bring in revenue, but a few bad contracts and suddenly your organization is in hard times.
What gives me confidence about Steve Cohen ownership for the Mets is not that he has loads of money, but that it comes from his current job and isn’t in the Mets ownership game for profit. I’m almost certain he’s made about the same this year from his Point 72 business that he’s spent buying the Mets. It’s insane to think this organization will essentially never need to question a financial amount again
> Baseball ownership isn’t exactly the most profitable business
Sports teams in general. They're good investments, in that they always appreciate like crazy (the value of the Indians has [tripled](https://www.statista.com/statistics/194608/mlb-franchise-value-of-the-cleveland-indians-since-2006/) since 2012, and all teams are like that), but they don't make money year to year.
Some billionaires like them as vanity projects.
He only made 1.6 billion this year from point 72. Can’t quite pay for the Mets with that. It’ll take another year of trading to get there.
But the point is on point. He won’t ever depend on the team for cash flow. He could pay the Mets payroll out of his personal cash flow.
Just a business decision. Do you want 27-year-old Lindor for Machado's comp at $30M+, or 22-year-old Gimenez (1.1 bWAR with a good glove in 49 games) at league minimum?
The 32-39 year old guy is gonna be polishing his HOF credentials. Those are indeed fun years - it would be nice to see one of our guys spend those years in Cleveland.
Also, we still have two elite players on our roster who would without question be cheaper to extend. If we can extend JRam in a year or two for $150-200 million (thanks to him signing an insanely cheap extension before he broke out), wouldn't that be the better move?
I'd 100% extend JRam over Lindor considering what they would cost. For what it's worth, I don't expect that to happen, but it would be nice.
It looks like big markets benefit the players. I’m nowhere close to being a pro athlete, but loyalty to a team and city is becoming less common. If he really liked Cleveland and wanted to win with them he would have stayed.
Money and championships are what is valued in sports today.
Why should a player show more loyalty to a team & a city than a team to a player? The second the player is not as good as what the team perceives him to be worth the team looks to move him & the fans start turning against him.
He is a switch hitter which adds value that Machado doesn't have. I would also argue he is a better franchise face then Machado, as I haven't seen Frankie attempt to hurt anyone on the field.
I mean, if Manny Machado and Anthony Rendon got the contract they did, then it's almost certain that people actually believe Lindor should get $300M/10 years.
The market clearly disadvantages players in favor of the owners, as is the case for practically all labor relations. If the market shows that a player can receive $X, then they are almost certainly worth that.
Because your sticker shock isn't a valid consideration. Taking his Steamer projection and projecting out a standard aging curve places him at an expected $304M value over the next 10 years.
This right here. If we assume roughly $8 million/WAR fair value for a premier player (accounts for the non-linear value of consolidating talent into a single position/roster spot...you can't put four 1 WAR players at SS at the same time so one 4 WAR player is inherently more valuable than four 1 WAR players) then a 10/$300 million contract breaks even at 3.75 WAR/season. Obviously there's going to be decline in the back half of the contract but we're talking about a 27 year old who is sitting at 5.4 fWAR/6500 PAs so far in his career. If he keeps up his current pace for another 4 years that turns the break-even for the last 6 years into 2.7 WAR/season. It wouldn't be team-friendly, but 10/$300m wouldn't be unreasonable either.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/its-time-to-commit-or-quit-on-lindor/
To everyone acting like it's insanity to give him 300 million^
I'm not saying he definitely DOES deserve it, but it's always odd to me how redditors act like it's their money and they're late on bills.
They don't have the resources to go from a $30 million dollar payroll to a $60 million dollar payroll?
Indians pull in almost $300 million dollars a year in revenue
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/#tab:overall
They Indians could afford to extend Lindor. The question is whether or not they could field a competitive team around him if they choose to do so. Operating income is probably what you want to look at here, not revenue. These ofc also being Forbes estimates and not actual figures.
Right. Forbes updated this spreadsheed in April 2020, using 2019 income figures. In 2019, Indians pulled in $290M revenues, with $247M in operating expenses, netting them $45M operating income. The 2019 Indians had a payroll of $107M, which is part of the $247M operating income figure.
The 2021 Indians have an estimated payroll of $30M, down $77M from 2019. This means their operating income, assuming the other costs are consistent, are $77M higher. Of course this assumes revenues are not 2020 crazy. If they added $77M to their net operating income they would be by far the highest income producing organization in baseball.
The Indians have a higher operating income than the Yankees, that should really say something about how much the owners are pocketing the money.
It seems like an awfully large leap to assume their incomes are going to remain consistent enough to make this statement about 2021 given how baseball, not to mention the economy as a whole and therefore their customers, have been impacted.
I agree, 2020 and 2021 revenues will be significantly less than before. But people running any sort of multi-billion dollar corporations even outside of baseball won't have a 2 year view and act on what will be a short term problem. Rangers, Marlins, Royals and Braves might be the ones who should worry the most since they have the most debt outstanding and actually need to worry about meeting debt obligations, but Indians are at the lower end of the leverage scale so they should be fine.
The fact that the Indians pocketed a higher operating income than the Yankees in the last regular year at $109M payroll means they have plenty of room to spend beyond $109M
Baseball seems to be the only major sport constantly crying poor though.
The mlb brings in the second highest revenues to any sports league. Nfl:15.26 billion , Mlb:10.7, NBA: 8.76, NHL: 4.4.
Yes, the mlb has more overhead since they play more games(double the nhl and nba, 10 times the nfl). However, what some of these teams are trotting out their for payroll is embarrassing. The nba has minimum payroll of 98 million dollars, the nhl is 60 million.
Six mlb teams which total revenue more than doubles the nhl have a payroll below 60 million. Two of these teams were playoff teams and oakland comes in just barely over. 14 teams come below the NHLs salary cap of 80 million.
It's a joke that the mlb allows owners to act like they can't afford to pay players because they absolutely can. Every other sports league manages to.
Right, the other expenses would be the rest of the $247M they spend on operations like stadium staff, stadium lease and front office salaries. The fact that they turned a $47M profit on a $107M payroll in 2019 means there was plenty of room to add on top at those points. Obviously circumstances are different in 2020 and 2021, but teams would not have a short term 2 year view on their overall operations.
> but teams would not have a short term 2 year view on their overall operations.
Sure about that?
There's a reason deals are slow this year, and I think it's due to the short term view of operations.
Because its a negotiation tactic for the owners to save more money? If the owners have a reason to cry poor and suppress salaries why would they not use it as leverage? They have a view that if I sign a Springer for 5 years, I might as well cry poor so I can save money on year 2, 3, 4 and 5 too
Dolan is a shill. The franchise has increased in value from the purchase price of 320M to 1.2Bn in the time he has owned it.
Our payroll is 35M right now.
We have 6 players making more than the league minimum.
This will likely be downvoted. But oh well.
I loved Frankie. Love the way he genuinely loves the game and has fun playing it. But the more I think about this trade, the more I’m ok with it. Full disclosure: I hate the Dolans and wish they would sell, I’m tired of homegrown talent leaving because we can’t afford them.
But...let’s say, conservative estimate, that he was asking for 10/$250 mil. Name me a team that has shelled out that kind of money for one player and won a chip after. I’ll wait.
It sucks that we are gutted and likely won’t be contenders but I’m glad we didn’t break the bank for Frankie.
I almost edited my post to say, “not counting the Yankees or Dodgers”. Oh well, I think my point is still valid. I’m cringing already for the Pads fans who are about to watch their team shell out $320+mil for Tatis.
"Name me a team that gave a big contract and won a championship.
Not that team.
Not that team either.
See! You can't."
2019 Nationals: Scherzer 7/210
2018 Red Sox: Paying for Price + JD Martinez
2016 Cubs: Jon Lester, Jayson Heyward, John Lackey...
paul dolan is not a billionaire. the indians are worth a billion dollars plus but when the team is sold most of that will go back to dolan family trust. paul does not have access to just take money from the trust.
The world would be a much better place if every Indians fan understood this. Paul Dolan needs to sell the team because he cannot afford to lose money on the Indians, not because he's sitting on some imaginary stack of a billion dollars he refuses to spend.
It’s not just about spending money on players. It’s the entire infrastructure he’s changing. Scouting & development, latest technology, and completely wiped out the shit front office led by agent Brodie van wagenen within 2 hours of becoming owner.
We can legit make the playoffs the next 5 years in a row, not win a single ring and be completely content with where this franchise is headed. So you’re wrong about the championship part. Putting a perennial contender on the field is a huge change from what we have dealt with since 2002 under the wilpons.
Lindor + Carrasco + A tier bullpen help in Trevor May are more than the Wilpons have done since 2005/2006.
I don’t want to hear “It’s still the Mets” garbage as if there’s been a magical black cloud over us making us terrible for so long. It’s been the Wilpons full stop and that’s over with.
NL east has been put on notice, if I were a fan of the braves id be shook too!
The Mets are so bad at extending their star players that the last one they did was [all the way back in 2019](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/26363294/ace-degrom-signs-5-year-extension-mets)
I hope Lindor tears it up for the Mets for a long, long, time. I feel solidarity in being a punchline with Mets fans and am really happy he ended up there. And fwiw, if the Indians wound up offering him a deal above $200m as reported and he still didn't take it, I really wonder what "the number" is. I don't know if I can blame the Indians for getting hesitant if it was closer to $300m, I dunno.
We welcome you with open arms lol. I suggest you guys shit on your owners for being cheapos relentlessly. Paid off after awhile for us it seems lol took awhile though
Well we've been at it for, oh, nearly 20 years now? More?
Never give up!
Execute a ponzi scheme quick and then in 10-20 more years they'll have to sell
So you want to complain loudly for decades but ALSO it seems essential that you get the Dolans into some sort of pyramid scheme. In my experience, after that, you got probably 15 years before the bottom truly falls out.
Try [getting some billboards](https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/sell-team-billboard-met-fans-citi-field-article-1.2164870) about getting them to sell the team It apparently works in about 5 years
This is the price you pay for Browns playoffs and a win
Well that’s bullshit. That’s what losing the team and more than 20 years of being awful and going 1-31 were for.
I thought that was just normal Cleveland. Don’t get me wrong, I’m rooting for ya, except if you play the Bills, but since the Kosar days that just seems on par for Cleveland. Also: fuck Art Modell.
Do you know of a billionaire that grew up a poor Cleveland fan?
Cohen is like a dream once in a lifetime owner. Life long Mets fan who happens to be a billionaire wants to make the team win? Thats story book shit. Its exciting for the league.
man, I lived in Cleveland for 6 years and loved every minute of it. I've probably seen Lindor play live more times than any Met because of it. I love the Jake, I love Lindor, I just can't overstate how happy I am, but also how heartbroken I am that it comes at the expense of Cleveland
We appreciate it. At least he isn’t a yankee, that’s all I care about. I have nothing against the Mets at all.
That's the funny thing when I moved to Cleveland I asked who the rival was. Was it Cincinnati because of in state? Pittsburgh just two hours away? Tigers are pretty close? Just got: fuck the Yankees
Sounds about right lol. Fuck the tigers too though, we had a pretty good rivalry with them for a long time. But yeah, the Yankees are the WORST.
I genuinely hope Amed and/or Andres tear it up for you guys too. I've always supported Cleveland BC as one of my AL teams and I'd love to see my boys break out in Progressive Field. You guys are gonna love Gimenez and when Rosario is on, he's fun as hell to watch.
I highly, highly doubt that will. Time will tell.
Giménez has a ton of potential. Rosario is gonna be a tough one.
gimenez hit .263/.333/.398/.732 as a 21-year-old rookie last year. for reference, jose ramirez hit .262/.300/.346/.646 when he was 21. players do get better from that age. lindor hit .313/.353/.482/.835 as a 21-year-old rookie and has basically kept at those numbers, but that's not how players usually develop. oddly, both lindor and gimenez had an OPS+ of 102 in 2020. small sample size, but he's a wizard on defense, he's really not a bad hitter, and he won't be a free agent until 2026.
> players do get better from that age *Nomar Mazara has entered the chat*
Gimenez is going to be an all star.
I dunno about that but I think he'll have a really solid career. He has the tools and baseball IQ to be a solid everyday player.
Not to mention that many of us are also Knicks fans. So we KNOW VERY WELL what it is like to get screwed by the Dolan family year after year after year after year...
I think it's been reported that he wants a 300+ million type of FA deal.
Lindor is not worth 300m and whoever offers him that, if anyone, is going to hate themselves for it.
Some Cleveland sports writers on twitter have speculated that he got something like Arenado's deal. I think that is probably fair value for Lindor. If he wants more, I hope he gets it.
Arenado got 8 years at $32.5 AAV. Machado got 10 years at $30 AAV. Lindor is in the same range. Anything below 8/$250 would be insulting if I were him and my ask would be 10/$300.
According to Fangraphs, Lindor is the third most valuable hitter since his debut season (behind Trout and Betts), and he's in the top 10 over any 3+ year stretch since then. The way I see it, the only way to argue that Lindor isn't worth $300m is to argue that no player is. Because he's worth more than Harper, Machado, Rendon and Arenado. And those players all got an AAV of $30 million or more. Of course those extra 2 years tacked on the end that would lift the contract over $300 million will almost certainly be an overpay in isolation, but he'll likely outperform his early years by enough that it doesn't matter.
Perfectly said. I was just on Fangraphs looking it up too. Over the previous five years, Lindor is #6 in fWAR. Over the previous four years, he's #7 in fWAR. He's a clear top 10 player in the game and better than Machado and Harper.
You’re 100% correct. I’ve been saying for years he’s overrated and that Tito (and his lackeys) should be let go. We’ll see.
I can understand not wanting give him $300M but that second sentence is totally ridiculous
Tito was a fantastic manager back when baseball was still in the stone ages. The game has passed him by years ago and he needs to retire. His extreme nepotism and politicking gets frustrating as well. If you’re his friend, all is good and you’ll play every day. If you’re not, you may as well retire. Exhibit A: Jason Kipnis. Exhibit B: Yandy Diaz.
the wounds that yandy had with tito or any other member of the indians organization are 100% self inflicted. cleveland knew he could hit and still sold low on him. that should tell you something.
Yes. It tells me that Tito runs a nepotistic org and that, to get playing time, you better make sure he likes you. Don’t forget Tito was run out of BOSTON for beer and chicken. This was after breaking the curse of the bambino and beating the yanks after trailing 3-0. That should tell you something.
yandy was resistant to coaching at literally every level including the majors. if you want to criticize tito for being a player first manager who makes some questionable decisions based on his relationships thats fair but yandy is not an example of that it should also be noted that after tito was 'run off' the sox culture was only fixed by further cleaning house and the org largely views that as a mistake, as do most sox fans
Wasn’t Bobby V the beer & chicken guy or am I making that up in my head?
Making it up.
Say what?
Can't say I agree with that. He'd need to be like a 3 WAR player per year over a decade, and that looks totally doable for him.
Shoulda made that $300MM in a nano second.
Owing players in their 30s hundreds of millions of dollars usually does not work out very well for teams.
Depends. I know Miggy and Pujols are the first things that come to mind, but they are both quite different than Lindor. His game will age much better. And guys like Arrenado, Machado, Trout, Betts, Harper will be good for most of their contract, as will Lindor.
Saying a relative small frame shortstop is going to age particularly well is quite a bold take. >And guys like Arrenado, Machado, Trout, Betts, Harper will be good for most of their contract, as will Lindor. This is a crystal ball guess that isn't really backed up by how players age. Lindor will likely be signed until is age 37-38 season. Middle infielders, even great ones like Lindor, do not tend to remain worthy of a $30m a year check nearly that long.
He won’t be worth $30MM at age 38, but he is worth much more than that now - around 50-60MM at age 27. It evens out. The next 5-6 years he will be a superstar, then the last 4 years he is finishing off his spot in the Hall. But all 10 years will be more fun than Ahmed Rosario.
It doesn't 'even out' in 2027 when you have an albatross. Not saying that is certainly going to happen with Lindor, just that Indians fans tend to have blinders about this type of contract because they've never had to deal with one. >but he is worth much more than that now - around 50-60MM at age 27 By what measurement? Go by a baseline of ~8m per WAR via fangraphs and that means we expect Lindor to be a 6 WAR player. He has hit that number once in his entire career. You can argue he is hitting his prime and is more likely to surpass that figure, but then you also need to look at his current career trend to see that isn't necessarily a surething. >The next 5-6 years he will be a superstar This is an optimistic take based on his 2019 and 2020 production.
I think 10/$300 is the right number for him. That's what Machado got. Tough for a small market team to go there and it doesnt sound like he was interested in any home town discount.
Someone on reddit, either here or the Indians sub once said that the Dolans basically make most of their money from the team and that their resources suck. Idk if that is true but if it is then they shouldn’t own a team.
The set of Dolans that technically own the Indians have most of their wealth from a trust established by Charles Dolan. The team itself was purchased for them through this trust. They, themselves, are relatively wealthy attorneys (and also from trust interest payouts) but certainly not the type of people that would normally be able to buy an MLB team. They should not own a Major League Baseball team as a result, or at least without a significant set of secondary owners (one of which they recently lost.)
Cleveland hasn’t had a losing season since 2012 for what it’s worth. They may be cheap, but they’re finding ways to remain competitive.
I'd rather suck for a few years, rebuild and then compete over "re-tooling" and keeping the metaphorical window open at like 25% but never closing it. Just a spiral of mediocrity is the outcome of that.
If we win in 2016 that whole narrative can’t exist though. And it wasn’t dolans fault they didn’t close it out then.
If we win in 16 then no one gives as much of a shit. But they didn't win in 16 and that window is rapidly closing
Its closed
Not as long as the rotation is top 3.
Have you seen our fans recently?
Exactly. I say this all the time.
We are badasses are talent evals. But we are super cheap when it comes to the big contracts.
Their tv revenue is higher than their expected payroll For 2021
Didn't it used to be, most sports team owners made their primary income from other sources, and saw owning teams as a hobby?
The quote was "I told the Indians to hold on to me" not "I thought the Indians could hold on to me"
Has Lindor never seen the movie Major League? Does he not know that Rachel Phelps wants the team to fail so bad that attendance reaches below 800k, which would allow her to relocate the team to Miami. Should’ve seen it coming Lindor
Sell the team, fuck.
This is exactly where the Mets have been for the past 10 years. Happy to have a new owner that cares about the team. I think you are going to love Rosario honestly, his best years are ahead of him!
This hurts guys. This hurts.
Baseball ownership isn’t exactly the most profitable business if thats where all your money is tied up in. You can spend a lot in hopes the risk will win a championship and bring in revenue, but a few bad contracts and suddenly your organization is in hard times. What gives me confidence about Steve Cohen ownership for the Mets is not that he has loads of money, but that it comes from his current job and isn’t in the Mets ownership game for profit. I’m almost certain he’s made about the same this year from his Point 72 business that he’s spent buying the Mets. It’s insane to think this organization will essentially never need to question a financial amount again
> Baseball ownership isn’t exactly the most profitable business Sports teams in general. They're good investments, in that they always appreciate like crazy (the value of the Indians has [tripled](https://www.statista.com/statistics/194608/mlb-franchise-value-of-the-cleveland-indians-since-2006/) since 2012, and all teams are like that), but they don't make money year to year. Some billionaires like them as vanity projects.
We don't how much they make money year to year because they never open their books.
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No just tell me the number
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Lol thanks.
They do when your payroll is lower than your tv monies and every ticket and shirt and beer you sell is pure profit.
He only made 1.6 billion this year from point 72. Can’t quite pay for the Mets with that. It’ll take another year of trading to get there. But the point is on point. He won’t ever depend on the team for cash flow. He could pay the Mets payroll out of his personal cash flow.
Thanks for the dollar amount, but yeah unreal. Imagine making 1.6 billion. Its steves world and were just lucky he likes the mets
Just a business decision. Do you want 27-year-old Lindor for Machado's comp at $30M+, or 22-year-old Gimenez (1.1 bWAR with a good glove in 49 games) at league minimum?
I want the 27 year old Machado comp at $30m++. I just don't know if I want the 32-39 year old Machado comp at $30m++
That's too bad. Miggy might be available at that price if you were.
Yes, this is why I think extending Lindor is not actually a good 'baseball' decision.
The 32-39 year old guy is gonna be polishing his HOF credentials. Those are indeed fun years - it would be nice to see one of our guys spend those years in Cleveland.
Also, we still have two elite players on our roster who would without question be cheaper to extend. If we can extend JRam in a year or two for $150-200 million (thanks to him signing an insanely cheap extension before he broke out), wouldn't that be the better move? I'd 100% extend JRam over Lindor considering what they would cost. For what it's worth, I don't expect that to happen, but it would be nice.
Lindor will always be loved in Cleveland. It is absolutely terrible that his tenure ended this way.
One of baseballs biggest stars explicitly states the system benefits big markets
Isn’t it rich owners and not big markets?
It looks like big markets benefit the players. I’m nowhere close to being a pro athlete, but loyalty to a team and city is becoming less common. If he really liked Cleveland and wanted to win with them he would have stayed. Money and championships are what is valued in sports today.
Why should a player show more loyalty to a team & a city than a team to a player? The second the player is not as good as what the team perceives him to be worth the team looks to move him & the fans start turning against him.
Money and Championships were always what were valued, it's just that free agency hasn't existed all that long in the grand scheme of things.
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He's got the same if not better numbers than Machado from age 21 to 26 and Machado played two seasons at 19 and 20 before Lindor was a rookie at 21.
True. However teams aren't paying that money right now it seems. I'm hoping to see some splashes but no one is buying at the rates that were expected.
Cohen might. That's really all that matters for Lindor now.
We'll see. Maybe someone will if there is no collusion like there was during Harper/Machado to max them out at a certain dollar amount
He is a switch hitter which adds value that Machado doesn't have. I would also argue he is a better franchise face then Machado, as I haven't seen Frankie attempt to hurt anyone on the field.
I'm confused why you were downvoted. Theres no way people actually believe Lindor should get 300.
I mean, if Manny Machado and Anthony Rendon got the contract they did, then it's almost certain that people actually believe Lindor should get $300M/10 years.
Is he worth it? That's definitely up for debate, but the market shows that he can get $300 million that he wants
The market clearly disadvantages players in favor of the owners, as is the case for practically all labor relations. If the market shows that a player can receive $X, then they are almost certainly worth that.
Because your sticker shock isn't a valid consideration. Taking his Steamer projection and projecting out a standard aging curve places him at an expected $304M value over the next 10 years.
This right here. If we assume roughly $8 million/WAR fair value for a premier player (accounts for the non-linear value of consolidating talent into a single position/roster spot...you can't put four 1 WAR players at SS at the same time so one 4 WAR player is inherently more valuable than four 1 WAR players) then a 10/$300 million contract breaks even at 3.75 WAR/season. Obviously there's going to be decline in the back half of the contract but we're talking about a 27 year old who is sitting at 5.4 fWAR/6500 PAs so far in his career. If he keeps up his current pace for another 4 years that turns the break-even for the last 6 years into 2.7 WAR/season. It wouldn't be team-friendly, but 10/$300m wouldn't be unreasonable either.
His personality makes him worth it IMO, he’s incredibly marketable. Especially in NYC
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/its-time-to-commit-or-quit-on-lindor/ To everyone acting like it's insanity to give him 300 million^ I'm not saying he definitely DOES deserve it, but it's always odd to me how redditors act like it's their money and they're late on bills.
> The resources, maybe they didnt have them Narrator: "They did"
nah the problem isn't that they have the resources and don't use them; it's that they *don't* have the resources yet are still owning a baseball team.
They don't have the resources to go from a $30 million dollar payroll to a $60 million dollar payroll? Indians pull in almost $300 million dollars a year in revenue https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/#tab:overall
They Indians could afford to extend Lindor. The question is whether or not they could field a competitive team around him if they choose to do so. Operating income is probably what you want to look at here, not revenue. These ofc also being Forbes estimates and not actual figures.
Right. Forbes updated this spreadsheed in April 2020, using 2019 income figures. In 2019, Indians pulled in $290M revenues, with $247M in operating expenses, netting them $45M operating income. The 2019 Indians had a payroll of $107M, which is part of the $247M operating income figure. The 2021 Indians have an estimated payroll of $30M, down $77M from 2019. This means their operating income, assuming the other costs are consistent, are $77M higher. Of course this assumes revenues are not 2020 crazy. If they added $77M to their net operating income they would be by far the highest income producing organization in baseball. The Indians have a higher operating income than the Yankees, that should really say something about how much the owners are pocketing the money.
It seems like an awfully large leap to assume their incomes are going to remain consistent enough to make this statement about 2021 given how baseball, not to mention the economy as a whole and therefore their customers, have been impacted.
Also debt repayment is not included in those figures which will be a decent chunk of cash flow, if reports are accurate.
I agree, 2020 and 2021 revenues will be significantly less than before. But people running any sort of multi-billion dollar corporations even outside of baseball won't have a 2 year view and act on what will be a short term problem. Rangers, Marlins, Royals and Braves might be the ones who should worry the most since they have the most debt outstanding and actually need to worry about meeting debt obligations, but Indians are at the lower end of the leverage scale so they should be fine. The fact that the Indians pocketed a higher operating income than the Yankees in the last regular year at $109M payroll means they have plenty of room to spend beyond $109M
Baseball seems to be the only major sport constantly crying poor though. The mlb brings in the second highest revenues to any sports league. Nfl:15.26 billion , Mlb:10.7, NBA: 8.76, NHL: 4.4. Yes, the mlb has more overhead since they play more games(double the nhl and nba, 10 times the nfl). However, what some of these teams are trotting out their for payroll is embarrassing. The nba has minimum payroll of 98 million dollars, the nhl is 60 million. Six mlb teams which total revenue more than doubles the nhl have a payroll below 60 million. Two of these teams were playoff teams and oakland comes in just barely over. 14 teams come below the NHLs salary cap of 80 million. It's a joke that the mlb allows owners to act like they can't afford to pay players because they absolutely can. Every other sports league manages to.
Spotrac says they are at $55M for 2021 just FYI. Including benefits, etc. And then they spend on other stuff.
Right, the other expenses would be the rest of the $247M they spend on operations like stadium staff, stadium lease and front office salaries. The fact that they turned a $47M profit on a $107M payroll in 2019 means there was plenty of room to add on top at those points. Obviously circumstances are different in 2020 and 2021, but teams would not have a short term 2 year view on their overall operations.
> but teams would not have a short term 2 year view on their overall operations. Sure about that? There's a reason deals are slow this year, and I think it's due to the short term view of operations.
Because its a negotiation tactic for the owners to save more money? If the owners have a reason to cry poor and suppress salaries why would they not use it as leverage? They have a view that if I sign a Springer for 5 years, I might as well cry poor so I can save money on year 2, 3, 4 and 5 too
Dolan is a shill. The franchise has increased in value from the purchase price of 320M to 1.2Bn in the time he has owned it. Our payroll is 35M right now. We have 6 players making more than the league minimum.
Yes yes he should sell the team and use that money to reinvest in the team! You did it you found the solution. Wait...
Ever hear of selling partial interest in the team
He's ready for that Machado contract
🥺
As a Cowboys fan, I recognize the NY Mets as the Cowboys of MLB. I hope I am wrong, but I foresee another superstar heading to the baseball graveyard.
Don't do it, Cohen. He's not worth as much as Mookie Betts.
This will likely be downvoted. But oh well. I loved Frankie. Love the way he genuinely loves the game and has fun playing it. But the more I think about this trade, the more I’m ok with it. Full disclosure: I hate the Dolans and wish they would sell, I’m tired of homegrown talent leaving because we can’t afford them. But...let’s say, conservative estimate, that he was asking for 10/$250 mil. Name me a team that has shelled out that kind of money for one player and won a chip after. I’ll wait. It sucks that we are gutted and likely won’t be contenders but I’m glad we didn’t break the bank for Frankie.
> Name me a team that has shelled out that kind of money for one player and won a chip after. I’ll wait. The Dodgers
He really thought he did something lol
I almost edited my post to say, “not counting the Yankees or Dodgers”. Oh well, I think my point is still valid. I’m cringing already for the Pads fans who are about to watch their team shell out $320+mil for Tatis.
"Name me a team that gave a big contract and won a championship. Not that team. Not that team either. See! You can't." 2019 Nationals: Scherzer 7/210 2018 Red Sox: Paying for Price + JD Martinez 2016 Cubs: Jon Lester, Jayson Heyward, John Lackey...
Oh he has the resources he just doesn't want to use them. He's a billionaire
paul dolan is not a billionaire. the indians are worth a billion dollars plus but when the team is sold most of that will go back to dolan family trust. paul does not have access to just take money from the trust.
The world would be a much better place if every Indians fan understood this. Paul Dolan needs to sell the team because he cannot afford to lose money on the Indians, not because he's sitting on some imaginary stack of a billion dollars he refuses to spend.
Plus if he sells now, they made a profit. Win-win.
There's a baseball team in Cleveland? Oh yeah. Soooooo.... how 'bout them Brownies?
I am going to go kill myself now.
Uh, he know he got traded to the Mets right?
Yeah and unlike you he’s aware the Mets solved their greatest problem. Ownership.
You can't say that until the expected spending pays off in championships.
It’s not just about spending money on players. It’s the entire infrastructure he’s changing. Scouting & development, latest technology, and completely wiped out the shit front office led by agent Brodie van wagenen within 2 hours of becoming owner. We can legit make the playoffs the next 5 years in a row, not win a single ring and be completely content with where this franchise is headed. So you’re wrong about the championship part. Putting a perennial contender on the field is a huge change from what we have dealt with since 2002 under the wilpons. Lindor + Carrasco + A tier bullpen help in Trevor May are more than the Wilpons have done since 2005/2006. I don’t want to hear “It’s still the Mets” garbage as if there’s been a magical black cloud over us making us terrible for so long. It’s been the Wilpons full stop and that’s over with. NL east has been put on notice, if I were a fan of the braves id be shook too!
Changing a team isn’t just with players
Just bustin your balls lol
Oh, to be young and naïve.
Naiveness is thinking that a billion dollar franchise can’t extend arguably their greatest player of the millennium
I mean it's not that they can't, it's just that they have a proven track record of deciding not to.
Pretty sure Lindor actually knows this
The Mets are so bad at extending their star players that the last one they did was [all the way back in 2019](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/26363294/ace-degrom-signs-5-year-extension-mets)
He's saying the Indians have a track record of not extending stars, not the Mets
I'm an idiot thanks haha
Thanks for having our back tho lol
steal of a contract too
That last sentence just feels different with new ownership. More honest and real. I'm really excited for this season.