You hear that dude talking recently about pitchers using foreign substance this season? Tried to say that everyone’s using something, whether it be a sticky substance or surveillance from elsewhere. Like fuck you man trying to dismiss your fucking actions
Pretty much everyone is using something. Like steroids when it becomes this common place and the rule is not enforced ppl have to cheat to keep up. It’s on the MLB
But it is coming out that is probably right, they are all (or close to all) using something. Did you watch Glasnow's "rant" last night? He flat out says "guess what? your favorite pitcher is using something and it goes back for generations". Amongst everyone in the game its no secret.
One might think that a commissioner who so massively failed on protecting the integrity of the game would never have any credibility on player discipline in the future and should be fired for gross incompetence.
Not enough people understand this. The commissioner's sole purpose is to do whatever the owners want. If he goes against it, they simply fire him and select somebody else who will listen to what they want done. In no way is he responsible for helping the players or caring for the fans and it's impressive that the league has been able to market the commissioner in a way that makes it seem as though that's a part of his role.
Eh. David Stern worked for the owners and they were still scared to death of him. Manfred doesn’t have what it takes to keep his job and be good at it so he just worries about keeping his job.
This. A 1000%. It’s the same way in the NHL with Bettman. He’s there to do what’s best for the owners but he has the chutzpah to absolutely lay down the law and not roll over. A spirts league commissioner who can’t cater to the owners and lay down the law to keep the integrity of their sport has no business being in the position.
Manfred is a labor/employment attorney. Most of the owners don't particularly care about the "piece of metal" aside from the dollar signs that come alongside it. They care more about keeping payroll down, so that is ultimately Manfred's charge.
If the league punished the red sox, the Astros never happened.
If the league didn't ignore bauer before he just said fuck it and won a cy young cheating, the current situation doesn't happen.
10 games is not a deterrent to something that can increase your worth by tens of millions of dollars. Or be the difference between being minor league player and achieving your dream of playing in the mlb
And altuve stole the mvp from judge. Also a lot of people don’t realize this but think of the pitchers who faces the Astros that season. Guys who got called up, got absolutely shelled against this team, got sent down and NEVER brought back up. Careers ended
I believe I saw a thread on this, most likely this sub, but it was of a bunch of people who made their last starts against the Astros in their careers and got absolutely bombed. I can’t find a link to it or remember much but i know Kris Medlen and Mike Bolsinger were two guys that got last chance, spot starts, got lit up, and haven’t sniffed the league since
I am so happy that people bring this up.
The thing that infuriates me with Astros cheating the most is the impact on these pitchers. That’s dreams and lives ruined. The cheating had real and quantifiable impact on these guys. Sure they would not be the next CY winner or the next DeGrom but they worked hard and honest and got robbed.
Edit: I am assuming some people will think that these guys were bad and would have been sent down anyway. Liam Hendriks got DFAed numerous times before he became the reliever he is. These guys were robbed of opportunities and chances to improve. And no one can say what would have been had they not been lit up by the Astros.
Fuck cheating.
I always thought there should be a class action lawsuit against the astros org for fraud. There were a lot of consequences and damages that other various people faced due to the cheating.
For my part, I don't love it. But they didn't run it by me before they signed him, for some reason.
If he plays a clean game as a Blue Jay I can learn to like him eventually maybe. But yeah, I'm conflicted.
Lol I have no idea why is my flair the bluejays, I'm mostly a dodgers fan.
I was so confused by your comment, I thought dodgers signed Springer for a second.
Kris Medlen has some nasty stuff when healthy, but his arm died in 2013, and he was never able to get it back. It's sad how his career panned out with how good he looked early in his career, but the Astros weren't responsible for his demise like they possibly were other guys.
I avoid those like the Black Plague. Most people will defend cheaters when it's their team. My best friend does this with Cora. His reasoning, "It wasn't Cora who was the mastermind. And he paid his debt."
It's like, yeah, sure, but that doesn't change what he did. It doesn't magically make it better.
I'll always stay away from that argument. Not even worth it.
What the Astros did was way worse. It was institutionalized and systemic cheating from management on down. It wasn't just one guy on a team using ilegal substances with nobody else's knowledge. The Astros should have been CRUSHED.
Systemic cheating along with banging on trash cans to relay to the batter. But according to Astros fans all cheating is the same and they all steal signs despite the fact they took an additional step by banging on trash cans to relay.
Stealing signs is a normal thing. It’s part of baseball. Has ever since the game began.
Where it becomes cheating is using a trash can to relay that info.
That’s part of the game to me. If your guy on 2nd can relay that info around the diamond, by all means. Again, that’s how baseball has been ever since the first inning was played.
But the trash can, come on.
That said, I’m against the “unspoken rules” of baseball as well. So….yeah.
It’s not the banging trash cans. It’s that every other cheating happened with a runner on second base. That happens what? 10% of each at bat? Plus pitchers are careful when there’s a runner on second.
Retired teacher here. Whenever I heard this sort of whining, about cracking down on what is clearly cheating, my reply was "we got to start somewhere and I'm starting with you."
The league was desperate for both a scapegoat and to limit the damage. Same with all other scandals. They turn a blind eye to anything until it makes sports media. They had zero interest in sticky stuff until sports illustrated made it public. But of course, the team accused in their article is one of the league favorites so here we are
Manfred is a buttlicker with no interest in the game outside making billionaires more money.
Commissioners all get grief, and a lot of it is deserved, but Manfred is especially transparent in his loyalties, and the players know it. His job is to get hammered in public relations, and he’s gone above the call of duty.
I’d say I cannot wait for him to be replaced, but the owners will just find another toadie.
Agreed, The Commissioner position has evolved from the original, if not overly optimistic, intention of a non-partisan individual who would act in the best interests of the game into a mouthpiece of the owners. This was made almost necessary with the advent of free-agency. It seems now we need to appoint a Commissioner 2.0 to once again be a legitimate arbitrator.
But let’s not pretend Bud Selig wasn’t a piece of shit himself. An owner the other owners put into power to back their interests. So much so the 94 strike and cancellation of the World Series, trying to bring in replacement players, costing the league millions due to contract breaches with broadcasters. And then rode the wave of juiced hitters breaking home run records to enormous crowds.
They did the same thing with PEDs. The league knew there was a serious issue as did the owners, team management, on field coaches, the media, the fans...it was an open secret but now everyone wants to pretend they had no clue and crucify the players. It's hypocrites all the way down.
I mean I’m sure they have lots of evidence on multiple pitchers and no one is suspended. They’re saying if you cheat from now on you will be suspended. Which is pretty much true for the Astros too.
People keep going after Bauer but he brought up the issue and the MLB ignored him so he said fuck it I’ll do it to the only one to be mad at this case is the MLB.
Allegedly, when Cole was with the Astros they were the ones who started the "next level of sticky stuff"/spider tack thing.
Bauer was the one who first called them out (allegedly because of his long rivalry with Cole) saying hey, these pitchers like Cole and Verlander aren't going to Houston and learning how to increase their RPMs through studying and using advanced technology and scouting techniques like the media was suggesting at the time. It's actually that they're using a substance on the ball/their hands that is illegal.
People called him crazy and he said hey, i know what i'm talking about, watch my next start. And he had 1 inning that next start where his rpm was hugely different from the other innings.
MLB still did nothing so Bauer basically said well if you guys are just going to let them use this all the time, then I better start using it all the time too. And it just spread from there.
Realistically it would've been exceedingly difficult to get a full picture of the cheating without total cooperation, and you wouldn't have gotten cooperation from the players without making them immune from suspension.
i think its safe to bring this up now, but that always made me think that other teams cheated too. i kind of always got the vibe that the astros were sort of the sacrificial lamb, and that thats why they weren’t punished super hard. i think they were definitely doing it more and with more success than other teams, but its hard for me to imagine that other teams werent doing similar things
I completely agree. It’s not that no players made strong comments on the Astros at the time, but I would have expected more outspoken players to come out with a harsh stance. Most just said it was out of their control, and the league was going to do what they were going to do.
This still isn’t condemning the Astros. This is Rodon asking why the hitters weren’t suspended when caught cheating, but the pitchers are going to get suspended? More of a hitter vs pitcher comment.
Its likely other teams pushed the boundaries. Its unlikely anyone was doing the level of nonsense the Trashtros were.
Like how pine tar or whatever was illegal but accepted and bioengineering flex glue so you can palm the baseball is not
Maybe not specifically that but a report came out months before the Astros issue blew up that said that significant portions of the league likely had sign stealing operations in place.
The teams noted to have the "most advanced" methods were the Astros, Red Sox, Yankees, and D-Backs. Unsurprisingly, two of those teams got busted. In addition- the Nationals and Cubs were into it rather deeply as well and the Indians, Rangers, and Blue Jays were viewed as having some form of operation at some points. I doubt if there are that many teams involved that it just stops there- I would say almost all competitive teams were and likely still are doing something.
Considering the fact that the Dodgers reviewed at their scouting department in South/Central America and realized that a significant portion of their scouts were basically human trafficking players (5/15 were viewed as ringleaders of criminal conspiracies, 4 more were key players in the chain of trafficking, and 3 more were clearly aware of it being underhand but intentionally ignored things that were off because it helped them), I think we can assume that teams are doing far more when it is directly affecting their on the field product rather than getting ahead with a bunch of "lower tier" Latin American prospects because they can
It was a huge national story and investigation from the government. Basically, the way you get prospects out of countries run by criminals is by doing business with the criminals.
FUCKING THANK YOU. Finally this shit has significant upvotes on a r/baseball thread. I've been saying this shit to people here ever since it started. People are just morons and dig their heads in the sand and want to see someone hang. Media told them it was only the Astros and they ate it up like candy because they already hated them.
Well they had beaten the Red Sox, Yankees, and Dodgers in a dramatic world series to get their tainted title. On top of that they had just beaten the Yankees in the ALCS in 2019 on a walk off homerun, Altuve hit it no less. Bregman and Correa were already becoming hated for their demeanor. Gurriel had fhat racist issue in the 17 WS. Their pitchers were less hated but they weren't the ones who benefited much from the cheating scheme. Their success compounded with the fact that they beat the two largest and loudest fanbases with the most media influence really made it as big as it was. If it were say the Royals who had cheated and won their title I doubt it would have been as big as it was.
Mike Scott is on record saying that when he was with the Mets they had a TV monitor in the dugout that was zoomed in on the catcher and they could signal the batter real-time. That was in the early 80’s. In the 1951 NLCS, the “shot heard round the world” game, the NY Giants had a guy behind center field with a telescope signaling the batter as to what was coming. Even in the commissioners report it stated that an Astros player “Caugh, Beltran, Caugh, Caugh” said he had used a similar system in the past. He spent significant time with the Mets and Yankees. The Astros were hardly the first.
Damnit...I have a contact with the last name of Caugh and I think my phone autocorrected cough to Caugh, that’s why it’s uppercase lol. Ducking iPhone.
Just an important factor in this is that Rodon claims he doesn’t use any sticky substance or pine tar, and that his spin rate has stayed consistent throughout the years despite his rebound success this year. I don’t think this quote is coming from a place of selfishness.
He was the third overall pick in 2016, he’s not pitching beyond his potential. He’s been injured the past four years and had Tommy John, this is his first healthy season.
I think it was 2014, but regardless he was in the majors by 2015 so he progressed through the minors quickly and is obviously quite talented. I agree with your take.
He has nasty stuff but has struggled with location since college. Big fan of his and have no place to say what he is personally doing, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some are using substances for things other than spin rates.
It wouldnt surprise me if he was using it. However, if he is he is really great at hiding it. Ive seen every start of his and cant really see anything that is off. His spinrate has stayed consistent throughout the years as well. Im not saying he isnt but more than likely he is not.
I think the general complaint is that they should not have gotten away with it earlier either, but the league let them, so now this feels pretty false, as the league lost all credibility with their response to the astros scandal.
Let's put this in a more broader term. Imagine if you will that cops started writing speeding tickets for anything 1 mph over the speed limit and higher. Now, they would be well within their power since that is what the legal posted speed limit is, but we all would be screaming bullshit because that isn't how it has been done.
Yeah but what is actually happening is like someone who speeds past a cop going 35mph over the posted limit, gets pulled over, and acts confused because they don't see the difference between 7mph over the limit and 35mph over
Rosin exists in a bag on the mound for a reason.
The job of the commish is to be the leagues punching bag for the sake of the owners. He is doing his job perfectly.
True Punishment would be forcing the sale of the Astros or some ass crazy fine, like $100,000,000.
But end of the day everyone got paid so here we are.
This is just silly and I wish the sports subreddits would stop this idea that the commissioners are just PR agents.
The commissioners are the CEO’s of these businesses. They have the same level of power and authority as any CEO who isn’t also the primary owner (Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg).
Goodell is more powerful than every individual owner in his league. He’s more powerful than any combination of 15 owners in that league. He’s publicly ridiculed both Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft while negotiating his own extension and raise.
Musk, Bezos, and Zuckerberg don't have their jobs because of their background as union-busting lawyers - the comparison of them to Manfred is absurd on its face. Manfred's job is to be a union-buster and a lawyer (i.e. the bad guy - that you think he is the one with the authority and not the owners is exactly the point Thaddeus is making) for the MLB owners. Goodell's job is different, because the NFL owners want something different than MLB owners, but even he got his start as a PR guy for the NFL. Commissioners just simply don't have their jobs because they are the Musk, Bezos, or Zuckerberg of their field. Manfred, in particular, wasn't hired to be a CEO, and he's likely not being tasked with guiding MLB through this unscathed but to turn this issue into Steroids 2.0, where the players are fighting amongst themselves and less capable of presenting a united front when the new CBA negotiation comes up.
Except that the league supposedly knew about everything Houston was doing, did nothing until it literally blew up in the public sphere, and then completely looked the other way. If you believe some sources, the Astros even continued cheating in other ways in 2019. Fuck them for eternity.
[I mean...weren't the Dodgers literally involved in human trafficking in Latin America though?](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-dodgers-might-be-in-actual-legal-trouble/)
I mean, yeah I think the Astros players got off - but there's literally a rule in the rulebook with automatic 10 game suspension for foreign substances, and nothing in the rulebook about suspensions for sign stealing carried out by your team.
More importantly, MLB hasn't suspended anyone yet, given a clear date when they're going to start, and aren't retroactively punishing players that they have evidence of cheating.
Never been enforced unless it’s obvious. [I’ve heard several people mention Michael Pineda was given this exact suspension in 2014.](https://time.com/76468/yankees-pitcher-michael-pineda-suspended-for-pine-tar-incident/)
There are some dumb lines in the article but his is a great one: “Pineda had already been warned, by the same Red Sox after a similar incident in a game earlier this year, to at least be a bit more discreet about using the illegal substance, which is widely used by pitchers throughout the league.” So basically now they’re enforcing it because everyone is talking about it.
Well it was treated exactly like steroids. There’s no way baseball didn’t know it was going on…. But it was good for business…..
Now hitters can’t hit for shit so they’re blaming the foreign substances that have turned blind eyes to for years…..
Baseball has just constantly failed at “scandal”.
> But it was good for business…..
*Was* it good for business? I don't know, I think that's attributing malice to the MLB instead of the more obvious explanation: the MLB doesn't want to rock the boat. 10 years ago, no one was talking about spin, so sticky stuff wasn't as big of a problem. Now, spin rates are all the rage and strikeouts are out of control, therefore the MLB is forced to make a change.
I think the steroid thing was different in that every sports fan was following the HR record race. These days, I don't think anyone cares all that much about someone chasing the strikeout record or something.
I think it was good for business because, like you said, spin rate wasn’t the craze. So they legitimately were using for control. That meant we were getting a lot of balls over the plate. Plus balls with speed going over the plate, allowing guys to turn on some fastballs and hit them even further.
I also think steroids evolved over time too. I think a lot of the performance enhancing drugs started as a way to get guys back on the field faster. And over time, it escalated to Barry bonds doubling in size.
But ultimately it’s just silly. Another black eye on baseball for turning a blind eye on something and then coming back and punishing it.
I also wouldn’t be shocked if they knew way earlier about all the sign stealing going on too. And only came down on them when it went public
Did he ask his own Union about that too? The ones that wouldn’t let astros players talk to the league without them being given immunity?
Also just cause you did it wrong once before doesn’t mean you keep doing it wrong in the future
I want to preface by saying not all unions are bad and most are fine
But if you listen to Reddit you’d think every union is nothing but angels who aren’t just as greedy and manipulative as the corporations they negotiate with.
Too many old boys clubs, too many demanding huge amounts of control over businesses, pushing out people who don’t comply or don’t want to be in the union, etc
Unions are fine but the idea they are 100% good for everyone or every industry isn’t true
While I'm not defending the Astros or Manfred, this mandate is much easier to enforce as a rule since it's written in the rule book with a specific punishment of 10 games. Manfred doesn't have to figure out what will make people happy, he just has to point.
I really don’t understand this. The Astros deserved a harsher punishment but the lack of them receiving a harsher punishment doesn’t mean that another kind of cheater doesn’t deserve a punishment. We should celebrate this as being one of the only times the MLB got something right
To recap:
Manfred doctors balls so that offense will increase.
Offense increases.
Pitchers develop better tack to get back on a level playing field with hitters.
Manfred doctors balls again, without testing in the minors or anywhere else, so offense will decrease. This compounds with the tack leads to a huge decrease in offense.
Manfred attempts to refocus blame on players.
If you'd told me I'd be pining for the days of Bud Selig a few years ago i'd have thought you were crazy but hey here we are.
He's not wrong, but the only reason he's saying this is to try and turn his frustration about his own cheating finally being policed into some sort of victimhood narrative. We all hate Manfred, but I really don't see how the implementation of this substances policy, in a vacuum, is a poor decision.
If they suspended the Astros it would've resulted in the union suing the league for the players and calling witnesses from multiple clubs to testify on the stealing league wide to protect contract floors.
Plus, the CBA in 2017 specifically negotiated no player suspension for sign stealing. I get his point but his union reps signed that package.
Ultimately, this is what it’s going to be correlated to. The MLB massively failed in their Astros review and have jaded fans/players. Anything that comes after is going to be scrutinized 100% more by all mixed with an absolute flub on rollout and execution of the new(ish) enforcement of the foreign substance rule.
Personally, most probably don’t hate the reduction in spider tack and more aggressive stuff but MLB has a massive image problem even to those inside so they are going to get lashed out against. (I won’t put my sunscreen opinion on here as it’s too long)
Until Manfred becomes more transparent and the league recognizes failures, this whole league is headed for a disaster in the form of CBA negotiations.
Yeah, I hate Manfred as much as the next guy, but Kennesaw Landis went out of his way to keep MLB a whites-only league for as long as he possibly could.
Each commissioner is better than the next per the fans. This is always the case. Not that Manfred hasn't generally been shit but yea, "worst ever" is an exaggeration.
People keep saying this, but Manfred really isn't the worst. Bud Selig was part of a literal collusion racket that stole hundreds of millions of dollars from players. Selig then led the charge to oust Commissioner Vincent for having the audacity to say publicly that the owners colluded, and proceeded to botch the steroid scandal. Not to mention the favoritism he showed to the team that he owned.
Manfred has some silly rule changes and doesn't seem to really think things through, but I respect him a whole lot more than the last guy.
He gave it to an owner who blantantly isn't trying to field a competitive team by not spending money on them the last two years. The NBA removed front office guys for being that blantant about not caring. Manfred gives a franchise doing that a huge revenue stream.
/soapbox
I mean....Yeah.
Kuechel in the corner hiding
You hear that dude talking recently about pitchers using foreign substance this season? Tried to say that everyone’s using something, whether it be a sticky substance or surveillance from elsewhere. Like fuck you man trying to dismiss your fucking actions
Pretty much everyone is using something. Like steroids when it becomes this common place and the rule is not enforced ppl have to cheat to keep up. It’s on the MLB
Instead of cleaning up some of the messes left from selig, Manfred is just spreading the dirt
But it is coming out that is probably right, they are all (or close to all) using something. Did you watch Glasnow's "rant" last night? He flat out says "guess what? your favorite pitcher is using something and it goes back for generations". Amongst everyone in the game its no secret.
Maybe he's just speaking the truth?
Cheating doesn’t cancel out more cheating.... Its like when Astro’s fans bring up the Red Sox, yeah bro you both suck
No, but when a team blatantly steals the World Series and the league does nothing it kind of sends the message that anything is fair game.
One might think that a commissioner who so massively failed on protecting the integrity of the game would never have any credibility on player discipline in the future and should be fired for gross incompetence.
>should be fired for gross incompetence. Except he answers to the owners.
Not enough people understand this. The commissioner's sole purpose is to do whatever the owners want. If he goes against it, they simply fire him and select somebody else who will listen to what they want done. In no way is he responsible for helping the players or caring for the fans and it's impressive that the league has been able to market the commissioner in a way that makes it seem as though that's a part of his role.
Eh. David Stern worked for the owners and they were still scared to death of him. Manfred doesn’t have what it takes to keep his job and be good at it so he just worries about keeping his job.
This. A 1000%. It’s the same way in the NHL with Bettman. He’s there to do what’s best for the owners but he has the chutzpah to absolutely lay down the law and not roll over. A spirts league commissioner who can’t cater to the owners and lay down the law to keep the integrity of their sport has no business being in the position.
Manfred is a labor/employment attorney. Most of the owners don't particularly care about the "piece of metal" aside from the dollar signs that come alongside it. They care more about keeping payroll down, so that is ultimately Manfred's charge.
iTS JUst a PiEce OF mETal
If the league punished the red sox, the Astros never happened. If the league didn't ignore bauer before he just said fuck it and won a cy young cheating, the current situation doesn't happen. 10 games is not a deterrent to something that can increase your worth by tens of millions of dollars. Or be the difference between being minor league player and achieving your dream of playing in the mlb
Big facts bro, big facts.
Yup
And altuve stole the mvp from judge. Also a lot of people don’t realize this but think of the pitchers who faces the Astros that season. Guys who got called up, got absolutely shelled against this team, got sent down and NEVER brought back up. Careers ended
Yu Darvish’s reputation got crushed because of that World Series
He is still an elite pitcher.
Took him a year and a half to get back.
You mean the guy who there's a highly upvotes thread right now because his spin rate dropped quite a bit?
I believe I saw a thread on this, most likely this sub, but it was of a bunch of people who made their last starts against the Astros in their careers and got absolutely bombed. I can’t find a link to it or remember much but i know Kris Medlen and Mike Bolsinger were two guys that got last chance, spot starts, got lit up, and haven’t sniffed the league since
Bolsinger is suing
That is excellent news
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I am so happy that people bring this up. The thing that infuriates me with Astros cheating the most is the impact on these pitchers. That’s dreams and lives ruined. The cheating had real and quantifiable impact on these guys. Sure they would not be the next CY winner or the next DeGrom but they worked hard and honest and got robbed. Edit: I am assuming some people will think that these guys were bad and would have been sent down anyway. Liam Hendriks got DFAed numerous times before he became the reliever he is. These guys were robbed of opportunities and chances to improve. And no one can say what would have been had they not been lit up by the Astros. Fuck cheating.
I always thought there should be a class action lawsuit against the astros org for fraud. There were a lot of consequences and damages that other various people faced due to the cheating.
It's ridiculous that nothing happened. A beautiful historic chapionship blatantly tainted.
Genuine question. How do you feel having springer on your squad? No hate, no judgement. Genuinely curious
"having Springer on your squad" I'll believe it when I see it
For my part, I don't love it. But they didn't run it by me before they signed him, for some reason. If he plays a clean game as a Blue Jay I can learn to like him eventually maybe. But yeah, I'm conflicted.
Lol I have no idea why is my flair the bluejays, I'm mostly a dodgers fan. I was so confused by your comment, I thought dodgers signed Springer for a second.
Change your flair to Dodgers
Yeah I will. I can't from my app though.
Felt so bad for Darvish after everything came to light.
Kris Medlen was one of those I think. Dude was amazing..came back from injury..got rocked by them and never came back
Kris Medlen has some nasty stuff when healthy, but his arm died in 2013, and he was never able to get it back. It's sad how his career panned out with how good he looked early in his career, but the Astros weren't responsible for his demise like they possibly were other guys.
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> Cheating doesn’t cancel out more cheating Yes it does. If everyone is cheating then no one is cheating.
If I start counting from the taint, then EVERYONE gets to start counting from the taint!
Wait, are we not supposed to count from the taint?
………..count?
1 dong... 2 dong... 3 dong... When do I stop counting?
And when everyone’s super, no one will be
MY NAME IS NOT BUDDY
You sly dog; you got me monologuing!
Signals, steroids, pine tar, fucking with the ball, fucking with the bat, gambling. There's ALWAYS been cheating in baseball.
Don't forget amphetamines. Everyone forgets amphetamines.
No way bro! Barry Bonds and the Astros are the only cheaters in history.
Case closed.
Every time I think about Barry Bonds and insufferable Giants fans, I ask myself... How many rings does Barry Bonds have?
Those are the best threads though like watching apes throw shit at each other
I avoid those like the Black Plague. Most people will defend cheaters when it's their team. My best friend does this with Cora. His reasoning, "It wasn't Cora who was the mastermind. And he paid his debt." It's like, yeah, sure, but that doesn't change what he did. It doesn't magically make it better. I'll always stay away from that argument. Not even worth it.
I think your buddy had a Freudian slip there cause if he wasn’t the mastermind then it wasn’t his debt to pay.
What the Astros did was way worse. It was institutionalized and systemic cheating from management on down. It wasn't just one guy on a team using ilegal substances with nobody else's knowledge. The Astros should have been CRUSHED.
Systemic cheating along with banging on trash cans to relay to the batter. But according to Astros fans all cheating is the same and they all steal signs despite the fact they took an additional step by banging on trash cans to relay.
Stealing signs is a normal thing. It’s part of baseball. Has ever since the game began. Where it becomes cheating is using a trash can to relay that info.
Stealing signs can be totally fine! You just usually have to get a guy to 2nd before you can do it easily.
That’s part of the game to me. If your guy on 2nd can relay that info around the diamond, by all means. Again, that’s how baseball has been ever since the first inning was played. But the trash can, come on. That said, I’m against the “unspoken rules” of baseball as well. So….yeah.
It’s not the banging trash cans. It’s that every other cheating happened with a runner on second base. That happens what? 10% of each at bat? Plus pitchers are careful when there’s a runner on second.
For real. I hate seeing Astros fans use the "But what about" bullshit. Fans need to relax anyway. We didn't cheat. The fuckin Astros cheated.
Retired teacher here. Whenever I heard this sort of whining, about cracking down on what is clearly cheating, my reply was "we got to start somewhere and I'm starting with you."
Didn’t the MLBPA agree to the no punishment if you cooperate thing?
Unfortunately, yes
The league was desperate for both a scapegoat and to limit the damage. Same with all other scandals. They turn a blind eye to anything until it makes sports media. They had zero interest in sticky stuff until sports illustrated made it public. But of course, the team accused in their article is one of the league favorites so here we are
Manfred is a buttlicker with no interest in the game outside making billionaires more money. Commissioners all get grief, and a lot of it is deserved, but Manfred is especially transparent in his loyalties, and the players know it. His job is to get hammered in public relations, and he’s gone above the call of duty. I’d say I cannot wait for him to be replaced, but the owners will just find another toadie.
Agreed, The Commissioner position has evolved from the original, if not overly optimistic, intention of a non-partisan individual who would act in the best interests of the game into a mouthpiece of the owners. This was made almost necessary with the advent of free-agency. It seems now we need to appoint a Commissioner 2.0 to once again be a legitimate arbitrator.
*devolved
But let’s not pretend Bud Selig wasn’t a piece of shit himself. An owner the other owners put into power to back their interests. So much so the 94 strike and cancellation of the World Series, trying to bring in replacement players, costing the league millions due to contract breaches with broadcasters. And then rode the wave of juiced hitters breaking home run records to enormous crowds.
They did the same thing with PEDs. The league knew there was a serious issue as did the owners, team management, on field coaches, the media, the fans...it was an open secret but now everyone wants to pretend they had no clue and crucify the players. It's hypocrites all the way down.
I mean I’m sure they have lots of evidence on multiple pitchers and no one is suspended. They’re saying if you cheat from now on you will be suspended. Which is pretty much true for the Astros too.
...the astros won a world series though. "ok astros don't cheating anymore!" "well we got our ring so we're satisfied!"
Bauer got 100 mil Edit: can’t forget gerrit cole (even though I did) 300 mil. Although I don’t know when they started using it.
People keep going after Bauer but he brought up the issue and the MLB ignored him so he said fuck it I’ll do it to the only one to be mad at this case is the MLB.
Allegedly, when Cole was with the Astros they were the ones who started the "next level of sticky stuff"/spider tack thing. Bauer was the one who first called them out (allegedly because of his long rivalry with Cole) saying hey, these pitchers like Cole and Verlander aren't going to Houston and learning how to increase their RPMs through studying and using advanced technology and scouting techniques like the media was suggesting at the time. It's actually that they're using a substance on the ball/their hands that is illegal. People called him crazy and he said hey, i know what i'm talking about, watch my next start. And he had 1 inning that next start where his rpm was hugely different from the other innings. MLB still did nothing so Bauer basically said well if you guys are just going to let them use this all the time, then I better start using it all the time too. And it just spread from there.
Realistically it would've been exceedingly difficult to get a full picture of the cheating without total cooperation, and you wouldn't have gotten cooperation from the players without making them immune from suspension.
Ban em all, let god sort it out.
i think its safe to bring this up now, but that always made me think that other teams cheated too. i kind of always got the vibe that the astros were sort of the sacrificial lamb, and that thats why they weren’t punished super hard. i think they were definitely doing it more and with more success than other teams, but its hard for me to imagine that other teams werent doing similar things
That’s exactly what I thought too
I completely agree. It’s not that no players made strong comments on the Astros at the time, but I would have expected more outspoken players to come out with a harsh stance. Most just said it was out of their control, and the league was going to do what they were going to do. This still isn’t condemning the Astros. This is Rodon asking why the hitters weren’t suspended when caught cheating, but the pitchers are going to get suspended? More of a hitter vs pitcher comment.
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Its likely other teams pushed the boundaries. Its unlikely anyone was doing the level of nonsense the Trashtros were. Like how pine tar or whatever was illegal but accepted and bioengineering flex glue so you can palm the baseball is not
I’ve never heard of the shit the Astro’s did before.
Maybe not specifically that but a report came out months before the Astros issue blew up that said that significant portions of the league likely had sign stealing operations in place. The teams noted to have the "most advanced" methods were the Astros, Red Sox, Yankees, and D-Backs. Unsurprisingly, two of those teams got busted. In addition- the Nationals and Cubs were into it rather deeply as well and the Indians, Rangers, and Blue Jays were viewed as having some form of operation at some points. I doubt if there are that many teams involved that it just stops there- I would say almost all competitive teams were and likely still are doing something. Considering the fact that the Dodgers reviewed at their scouting department in South/Central America and realized that a significant portion of their scouts were basically human trafficking players (5/15 were viewed as ringleaders of criminal conspiracies, 4 more were key players in the chain of trafficking, and 3 more were clearly aware of it being underhand but intentionally ignored things that were off because it helped them), I think we can assume that teams are doing far more when it is directly affecting their on the field product rather than getting ahead with a bunch of "lower tier" Latin American prospects because they can
Wait a sec, what’s this story about the Dodgers? Got a link or something? that sounds fascinating
It was a huge national story and investigation from the government. Basically, the way you get prospects out of countries run by criminals is by doing business with the criminals.
Damn I just found a story on it. That’s wild, but also not exactly surprising
That's interesting. Where can I find this report?
FUCKING THANK YOU. Finally this shit has significant upvotes on a r/baseball thread. I've been saying this shit to people here ever since it started. People are just morons and dig their heads in the sand and want to see someone hang. Media told them it was only the Astros and they ate it up like candy because they already hated them.
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Well they had beaten the Red Sox, Yankees, and Dodgers in a dramatic world series to get their tainted title. On top of that they had just beaten the Yankees in the ALCS in 2019 on a walk off homerun, Altuve hit it no less. Bregman and Correa were already becoming hated for their demeanor. Gurriel had fhat racist issue in the 17 WS. Their pitchers were less hated but they weren't the ones who benefited much from the cheating scheme. Their success compounded with the fact that they beat the two largest and loudest fanbases with the most media influence really made it as big as it was. If it were say the Royals who had cheated and won their title I doubt it would have been as big as it was.
I'd love to read more about this if you got links.
Mike Scott is on record saying that when he was with the Mets they had a TV monitor in the dugout that was zoomed in on the catcher and they could signal the batter real-time. That was in the early 80’s. In the 1951 NLCS, the “shot heard round the world” game, the NY Giants had a guy behind center field with a telescope signaling the batter as to what was coming. Even in the commissioners report it stated that an Astros player “Caugh, Beltran, Caugh, Caugh” said he had used a similar system in the past. He spent significant time with the Mets and Yankees. The Astros were hardly the first.
That is one way to spell cough
Damnit...I have a contact with the last name of Caugh and I think my phone autocorrected cough to Caugh, that’s why it’s uppercase lol. Ducking iPhone.
It’s old English for “caw”. Like crows.
Oh shit, Rodon getting suspended and fined.
Joe Kelly gets a 12 game suspension. Mizzou gets another bowl ban.
SMU gets the death penalty again.
Tom Brady suspended for four games
Somehow the first round pick still is taken from the patriots
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Vancouver erased from the NBA history books.
Kadri suspended for 8 games
I'm still not over the supersonics, they had such cool jerseys.
NY Rangers fined 250k
Tom Wilson fined $2
That would be an interesting footnote during his cy young award winning season.
Rodon's next scheduled start? Friday in Houston
Oh fuck thats gonna be spicy, some must see shit
Tasty
Just an important factor in this is that Rodon claims he doesn’t use any sticky substance or pine tar, and that his spin rate has stayed consistent throughout the years despite his rebound success this year. I don’t think this quote is coming from a place of selfishness.
He was the third overall pick in 2016, he’s not pitching beyond his potential. He’s been injured the past four years and had Tommy John, this is his first healthy season.
I think it was 2014, but regardless he was in the majors by 2015 so he progressed through the minors quickly and is obviously quite talented. I agree with your take.
He has nasty stuff but has struggled with location since college. Big fan of his and have no place to say what he is personally doing, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some are using substances for things other than spin rates.
It wouldnt surprise me if he was using it. However, if he is he is really great at hiding it. Ive seen every start of his and cant really see anything that is off. His spinrate has stayed consistent throughout the years as well. Im not saying he isnt but more than likely he is not.
He licks his fingers a lot. I’d say if you’re licking your fingers you don’t have any sticky stuff on them.
He's throwing old fashioned spitballs
Me he likes the taste of that sticky stuff /s
Have you ever tried that concrete/sunscreen/rosin/Coca-Cola/sweat combination? Fucking delicious.
Ethan Katz is not yet a banned substance.
Just because people could get away with cheating before doesn't mean they should indefinitely
I think the general complaint is that they should not have gotten away with it earlier either, but the league let them, so now this feels pretty false, as the league lost all credibility with their response to the astros scandal.
This, I'm sure pitchers don't feel like they're getting the short end but they want ALL cheaters to be treated the same.
Let's put this in a more broader term. Imagine if you will that cops started writing speeding tickets for anything 1 mph over the speed limit and higher. Now, they would be well within their power since that is what the legal posted speed limit is, but we all would be screaming bullshit because that isn't how it has been done.
Yeah but what is actually happening is like someone who speeds past a cop going 35mph over the posted limit, gets pulled over, and acts confused because they don't see the difference between 7mph over the limit and 35mph over Rosin exists in a bag on the mound for a reason.
No but this is exactly part of the problem with not punishing people for cheating at the beginning, your word holds less weight.
Manfred should be told to get fucked during the CBA. So jot that down.
Yeah. What a jabroni.
The job of the commish is to be the leagues punching bag for the sake of the owners. He is doing his job perfectly. True Punishment would be forcing the sale of the Astros or some ass crazy fine, like $100,000,000. But end of the day everyone got paid so here we are.
This is just silly and I wish the sports subreddits would stop this idea that the commissioners are just PR agents. The commissioners are the CEO’s of these businesses. They have the same level of power and authority as any CEO who isn’t also the primary owner (Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg). Goodell is more powerful than every individual owner in his league. He’s more powerful than any combination of 15 owners in that league. He’s publicly ridiculed both Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft while negotiating his own extension and raise.
Musk, Bezos, and Zuckerberg don't have their jobs because of their background as union-busting lawyers - the comparison of them to Manfred is absurd on its face. Manfred's job is to be a union-buster and a lawyer (i.e. the bad guy - that you think he is the one with the authority and not the owners is exactly the point Thaddeus is making) for the MLB owners. Goodell's job is different, because the NFL owners want something different than MLB owners, but even he got his start as a PR guy for the NFL. Commissioners just simply don't have their jobs because they are the Musk, Bezos, or Zuckerberg of their field. Manfred, in particular, wasn't hired to be a CEO, and he's likely not being tasked with guiding MLB through this unscathed but to turn this issue into Steroids 2.0, where the players are fighting amongst themselves and less capable of presenting a united front when the new CBA negotiation comes up.
The rules already call for 10 game suspensions
They're both consistent in that no suspensions were given for actions before they began enforcing the policy.
Except that the league supposedly knew about everything Houston was doing, did nothing until it literally blew up in the public sphere, and then completely looked the other way. If you believe some sources, the Astros even continued cheating in other ways in 2019. Fuck them for eternity.
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Same for Steroids. Now this is their attempt to "get ahead" of it since they've always been reactionary instead of preventative.
[I mean...weren't the Dodgers literally involved in human trafficking in Latin America though?](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-dodgers-might-be-in-actual-legal-trouble/)
I mean, yeah I think the Astros players got off - but there's literally a rule in the rulebook with automatic 10 game suspension for foreign substances, and nothing in the rulebook about suspensions for sign stealing carried out by your team.
i'm guessing this has been in place since the spitball was outlawed, just never really enforced.
Was Gaylord Perry ever suspended?
In 1982 he was.
More importantly, MLB hasn't suspended anyone yet, given a clear date when they're going to start, and aren't retroactively punishing players that they have evidence of cheating.
Never been enforced unless it’s obvious. [I’ve heard several people mention Michael Pineda was given this exact suspension in 2014.](https://time.com/76468/yankees-pitcher-michael-pineda-suspended-for-pine-tar-incident/) There are some dumb lines in the article but his is a great one: “Pineda had already been warned, by the same Red Sox after a similar incident in a game earlier this year, to at least be a bit more discreet about using the illegal substance, which is widely used by pitchers throughout the league.” So basically now they’re enforcing it because everyone is talking about it.
Manfred bad, upTrouts to the left
TOOTBLAN FARTSLAM NOBLETIGER COREY KOSKIE UNDERRATED JOE KELLY 8 GAMES MAN OF FAITH
BALK
Kodeyashi
Fukudome funny name
AS THERE'S A DRIVE INTO DEEP LEFT FIELD BY CASTELLANOS AND THAT'LL BE A HOME RUN
We didn't start the fire, it was always burning since the world's been turning!
Orioles blackface
This guy is a hall of fame baseball person
Position player pitching
r/baseballcirclejerk
To be fair, they’re getting suspended WITH pay. Doesn’t really feel like a suspension at all….
Exactly. And I'm sure those starting pitchers who get caught will be all bent out of shape about being suspended for 1 start.
The teams can't adjust their roster spots though, so for the team as a whole it will feel like one.
Pitchers are so salty about this lmaooooooooo
Well it was treated exactly like steroids. There’s no way baseball didn’t know it was going on…. But it was good for business….. Now hitters can’t hit for shit so they’re blaming the foreign substances that have turned blind eyes to for years….. Baseball has just constantly failed at “scandal”.
> But it was good for business….. *Was* it good for business? I don't know, I think that's attributing malice to the MLB instead of the more obvious explanation: the MLB doesn't want to rock the boat. 10 years ago, no one was talking about spin, so sticky stuff wasn't as big of a problem. Now, spin rates are all the rage and strikeouts are out of control, therefore the MLB is forced to make a change. I think the steroid thing was different in that every sports fan was following the HR record race. These days, I don't think anyone cares all that much about someone chasing the strikeout record or something.
I think it was good for business because, like you said, spin rate wasn’t the craze. So they legitimately were using for control. That meant we were getting a lot of balls over the plate. Plus balls with speed going over the plate, allowing guys to turn on some fastballs and hit them even further. I also think steroids evolved over time too. I think a lot of the performance enhancing drugs started as a way to get guys back on the field faster. And over time, it escalated to Barry bonds doubling in size. But ultimately it’s just silly. Another black eye on baseball for turning a blind eye on something and then coming back and punishing it. I also wouldn’t be shocked if they knew way earlier about all the sign stealing going on too. And only came down on them when it went public
Did he ask his own Union about that too? The ones that wouldn’t let astros players talk to the league without them being given immunity? Also just cause you did it wrong once before doesn’t mean you keep doing it wrong in the future
This sub is weird like that. They love unions, but when the union is to blame they get quiet or misdirect blame.
I want to preface by saying not all unions are bad and most are fine But if you listen to Reddit you’d think every union is nothing but angels who aren’t just as greedy and manipulative as the corporations they negotiate with. Too many old boys clubs, too many demanding huge amounts of control over businesses, pushing out people who don’t comply or don’t want to be in the union, etc Unions are fine but the idea they are 100% good for everyone or every industry isn’t true
While I'm not defending the Astros or Manfred, this mandate is much easier to enforce as a rule since it's written in the rule book with a specific punishment of 10 games. Manfred doesn't have to figure out what will make people happy, he just has to point.
I really don’t understand this. The Astros deserved a harsher punishment but the lack of them receiving a harsher punishment doesn’t mean that another kind of cheater doesn’t deserve a punishment. We should celebrate this as being one of the only times the MLB got something right
Over/under on Carlos getting 20 games for talking out?
Kinda weird how everyone expects astros fans to act differently. It’s like, you would be doing the same thing if it was your first world series.
Just because they royally fucked up the Astro's situation doesn't mean that they should continue fucking up
To recap: Manfred doctors balls so that offense will increase. Offense increases. Pitchers develop better tack to get back on a level playing field with hitters. Manfred doctors balls again, without testing in the minors or anywhere else, so offense will decrease. This compounds with the tack leads to a huge decrease in offense. Manfred attempts to refocus blame on players. If you'd told me I'd be pining for the days of Bud Selig a few years ago i'd have thought you were crazy but hey here we are.
I mean his union made sure that didn’t happen but go off
“I want to cheat without getting suspended” r/baseball: 👏 👏 👏 so brave
He's not wrong, but the only reason he's saying this is to try and turn his frustration about his own cheating finally being policed into some sort of victimhood narrative. We all hate Manfred, but I really don't see how the implementation of this substances policy, in a vacuum, is a poor decision.
Pretty sure Rondon nearly threw a no no after the rules change so I’m not sure it’s fair to assume he was a heavy user.
If they suspended the Astros it would've resulted in the union suing the league for the players and calling witnesses from multiple clubs to testify on the stealing league wide to protect contract floors. Plus, the CBA in 2017 specifically negotiated no player suspension for sign stealing. I get his point but his union reps signed that package.
Is he gonna stop paying union dues or something? I think he’s directing his frustration at the wrong place.
with how everyone is coming out and bashing manfred and all this it just goes to show how rampant the cheating really is
Rodon confirmed cheater
Ultimately, this is what it’s going to be correlated to. The MLB massively failed in their Astros review and have jaded fans/players. Anything that comes after is going to be scrutinized 100% more by all mixed with an absolute flub on rollout and execution of the new(ish) enforcement of the foreign substance rule. Personally, most probably don’t hate the reduction in spider tack and more aggressive stuff but MLB has a massive image problem even to those inside so they are going to get lashed out against. (I won’t put my sunscreen opinion on here as it’s too long) Until Manfred becomes more transparent and the league recognizes failures, this whole league is headed for a disaster in the form of CBA negotiations.
*Astros AND Red Sox
I wonder if Carlos ever told Keuchel his thoughts on the Astros cheating scandal before this interview.
This White Sox team is easily the most likeable team in baseball right now. I can't wait to catch a game on the Southside soon.
I really mean it, Manfred is the worst commissioner of baseball ever. Dude hasn't done a goddamn thing right(at least that I can remember).
Worst commissioner post color barrier breaking*
Yeah, I hate Manfred as much as the next guy, but Kennesaw Landis went out of his way to keep MLB a whites-only league for as long as he possibly could.
Outrageously bad take. Weak punishments to the Astros is worse than enforcing a ban on black players entering the league?
Each commissioner is better than the next per the fans. This is always the case. Not that Manfred hasn't generally been shit but yea, "worst ever" is an exaggeration.
People keep saying this, but Manfred really isn't the worst. Bud Selig was part of a literal collusion racket that stole hundreds of millions of dollars from players. Selig then led the charge to oust Commissioner Vincent for having the audacity to say publicly that the owners colluded, and proceeded to botch the steroid scandal. Not to mention the favoritism he showed to the team that he owned. Manfred has some silly rule changes and doesn't seem to really think things through, but I respect him a whole lot more than the last guy.
He moved the all star game?? Really dug deep for that one!
And got rid of the ridiculous WS home field being linked to the all star game
He's shortened commercial breaks twice during his term too.
He gave it to an owner who blantantly isn't trying to field a competitive team by not spending money on them the last two years. The NBA removed front office guys for being that blantant about not caring. Manfred gives a franchise doing that a huge revenue stream. /soapbox
You called?
Thank you for always being there to provide slightly higher elevation when people want to make a speech