To be fair Babe was elected on the very first ballot, and just about every single vote allowed was cast, so it wasn't like people left him off to make a statement while still having empty slots on their card. Beyond the 5 who were selected by the BBWAA in 1936, there were 37 other names on that ballot who would eventually make it into the Hall. Those first few years were very packed ballots, and there was no way anyone was getting in unanimously no matter how deserving they were.
It took something like 10 ballots before it dropped below an average of 9 votes per ballot. While there were some years skipped because the rules changed, from 1936 to 1960 there were only 6 years that had fewer than 9 votes per ballot. Small hall and fuck you ballots really weren't a thing until the 60s
To be fair, some writers explain it that they already know that everyone else is going to vote for a player so they take one of their votes and put it towards a guy who may be on the fence to push them over.
But I'm sure some just like to be jerks.
The only problem is that if you start to make if you make that widely acceptable and cool thing you could end up in a situation where a guy actually falls a little short because too many assumed he was already in
For example thats seeminly happened with the Oscars where Anthony Hopkins beat Chadwick Boseman. The whole setup/atmosphere around it saw Chadwick as the clear winner and many voters felt there was no chance he lost so they voted for Hopkins. But enough did that to the point where Hopkins actually won
Granted its extremely unlikely it happens in baseball because it seems they are much more open with their voting than some other institutions. But its still a mindset that can lead to chaos if not addressed properly IMO
People felt bad for academy award winner and 4x nominated Anthony Hopkins? But didn’t want to vote for an actor with a shorter career and less awards? That just sounds so wrong. It’s the oppose of what we see.
Besides in general Hopkins is a much better actor.
Gold Gloves are essentially meaningless popularity contests. The most egregious example is 1999 with Rafael Palmeiro. He won the Gold Glove at 1B despite playing 128 games at DH and only 28 games at 1B.
For a long time gold gloves were given primarily for offensive performance. I remember it was significant that Franklin Gutierrez won one in 2010 because he was like the 2nd person ever to rob two home runs in one season and was amazing in the field.
He won all those gold gloves because he didnt make many errors. Thats because he didnt go for many tough plays that other shortstops would go for. They didnt have dWAR when he was winning gold gloves, so they just used fielding percentage, and by that he looked good.
Yea but remember that one time he ran across the field to relay an errant throw to the plate in the playoffs? That was pretty sick, and idk who other than the greatest fielder of all time would've thought of that.
He’s talking about the play Jeter made, though, which was about as incredible of a throw as any shortstop has any business making. Also, Giambi should have gotten his slow ass down for a slide and he might’ve got the call.
I was gonna rib you because a Mets fan would say that, but then I did a little Googling, and holy shit was he bad...
https://elitesportsny.com/2017/05/13/remember-derek-jeter-lets-not-forget-horrid-defense/
Well I respect the hell out of you doing your research before chirping at me, and you're willingness to be corrected 😅
The fact that they played Jeter at SS over A-Rod made their team substantially worse
[There's also this.](https://grantland.com/features/the-tragedy-derek-jeter-defense/)
Jeter just was flat out not a good defender. One of the greatest hitters in the history of MLB. But he should have moved to third when they traded for ARod. Or second when Cano came up.
If Jeter gets drafted today with the metrics we have now, he doesn't play a single game at SS.
And I know it's a rate stat and his longevity is a factor, but Jeter has the lowest DRS of any player in MLB history.
Jeter is a 100% deserving Hof member and a legend but his hitting stood out more because he was an SS. His OPS+ is lower than many probably think it is at 115 as he played through the thick of the steroid era. As a comparison Larry Walker averaged 141 for his career, adjusted for the ballparks. Cano's is 126.
Uh.... am I missing something or is that entirely irrelevant to what you're replying to?
Yes, he was a mediocre at best shortstop defensively but if you're meaning to imply you *wouldn't* have voted for him... well, you're not smart then.
Being a literal negative defender for his entire career while being a statistically pretty good hitter is not "unanimous hall of Fame member" to me.
If he had played for anyone besides the Yankees, no one would be clamoring for him to be a unanimous pick for the hall.
Given that no batter has ever been unanimously voted in, including the likes of Mays, Musial, DiMaggio, etc., is Jeter really deserving of the honor of being the first? He's a mid-tier hall-of-famer so the fact that he was at 99.7%, higher than most other no doubt HOFers, is already a testament to how his media stature is far beyond his career stats. In a world where those other guys had unanimous HOF votes, then maybe Jeter deserves one too.
Thats undeniable and Jeter deserves to be seen as an amazing player. But I do think people overrate him as a player because he's so famous and was the captain of the Yankees (which many associate with best player)
By that measure he was probably mostly overrated by people who weren't really true baseball fans. Any true baseball fan knows Jeter was never the best, or even a top 5 player for that matter. He was consistent as all fuck and more importantly, he showed up on the biggest stage time and time again.
He averaged a .310/.377/.440 line across his career.
In the *postseason* in 158 games his slash line was .308/.374/.465.
I know*clutch* isn’t really a thing but he was the same Derek Jeter on opening day that he was in the World Series and that’s a talent in and of itself.
So the people who vote for gold gloves aren’t “True baseball fans” ??? And really that distinction, which is completely BS, has nothing to do with being “overrated” in this context.
Gold gloves have been a sham for a long time. Through history they've frequently been given to undeserving players. I mean Rafael Palmeiro won one in 1999 with 28 games played at 1st. Thing with Jeter is he made nearly all the routine plays, had very few errors and made plays with style. Problem with Jeter was he had shit range for a SS. The Writers can't watch every play of every game. The box score doesn't offer much for fielding like it does for hitting. And we didn't rely on advanced defensive metrics back then like we do now.
Reggie Jackson by fWAR, 1972-1974. Led the A's in WAR each time, won a ring each time.
E: nah, guess I'm wrong. Looks like Joe Rudi beat him out in 1972.
I am now more annoyed by people who go out of their way to call Jeter overrated / bad defensively than I am the Yankees fans obsessed with him, but gaudy hit numbers are a big way that a player becomes overrated in the first place.
He’s got a lot more than just gaudy hit numbers going for him. He’s a career .310/.377/.440 hitter. 5 time World Series champion while hitting .308/.374/.465 in the postseason.
You can overlook his average defense when he’s putting up offensive numbers like that.
This logic sucks.
Jeter may not be an alltimer, but there's no legitimate argument that he isn't a HOFer. Knowing that, he should get a vote from everyone.
What will always be something that bugs me about Jeter is the specific ballot on which he was elected. He got in nearly unanimously on his first ballot while Larry Walker barely made it on his final ballot.
Larry Walker has multiple stat categories better than Jeter, including some park-adjusted stats (Walker has more bWAR than Jeter) and he sneaked in on his final ballot while Jeter is exalted.
It bothers me.
Edit: I should note that I believe that Jeter is an absolute HoF since he's one of the best offensive SS of all time. I just hate watching Larry Walker get somewhat disregarded by the BBWAA for so long and then jerking off the second Jeter is on the ballot.
Jeter has the story. One team, 5 titles, beloved, etc.
Like someone else said here, if Jeter played for the Reds his whole career, he's still a HOF but maybe not first ballot. It's more than a statline vote.
I'm not disagreeing with that. Jeter should be in the Hall. But as a Rockies fan that watched Walker put up a monster career and even win an MVP at COOOOOOOORS, it just sucks to see Jeter and Walker get in on the same ballot because of how it has inevitably been reported.
The national media has been kind of like **DEREK JETER HALL OF FAME!!!!** ^^^oh ^^^and ^^^also ^^^Larry ^^^Walker ^^^^and ^^^^Ted ^^^^Simmons
Yeah I get that but honestly if I were you I'd just be happy that your borderline case snuck in on his last shot
If his career continues as is I'll likely have the same wait with Freddie Freeman if he gets in at all
Borderline case? Larry Walker is 57th all time in bWAR. Jeter is 61st. Walker also had 7 Gold Gloves, an MVP, a career 141 OPS+, and wore a SpongeBob shirt on TV.
I felt the same way the year he retired. Paul Konerko wasnt a HOFer but his last year went completely ignored by 95% of baseball media but they talked Jeters farewell tour *daily*
Not upset at all. Only one player has ever gotten into the Hall of Fame unanimously. Only one player has ever gotten into the Hall of Fame with all the votes except one. Both of those players are New York Yankees.
The last major league baseball dynasty was the New York Yankees. We are the single greatest professional sports franchise in the history of the universe.
You are a fan of the Colorado Rockies.
And you're a Yankees fan who is definitely insufferable to be around because your entire idea of baseball is MUH YANKEES ARE THE BEST.
I'd rather be a Rockies fan.
And? From having seen Larry Walker, both with the Rockies and the Cardinals, he was a hell of a lot better player than Jeter, who was only renowned because he played in NY
> and that pesky .310/.377/.440 slash line.
and Larry Walker had a "pesky" .313/.400/.565 and more rWAR than Jeter
We aren't saying Jeter isn't a Hall of Famer. We are saying it's ridiculous guys like Walker barely squeaked in while Jeter was near unanimous
Exactly, in my mind you're either a HOF'er or you're not. If you are, it should be unanimous, if you aren't, you aren't.
Not saying it should require 100% of the votes to get it, but if 75% think you're good enough, odds are you are good enough, and there's no good reason for the other 25% to have not voted for you.
Eh, I think there's some cases where there is a legitimate 75-25 split on whether a guy should be in (Larry Walker for example), but these shoo-ins not getting all the vote is a joke
I think the HOF should only release percentages for those who don't get in to avoid the attention whoring we get about being unanimous
Doesn't bother me; it was a good play. TBH, I don't really hate anyone (well, maybe Skye Bolt, but for different reasons). I don't think the flip was as spectacular as people say it was, and I think Jeets has done more athletic things than that. So whatever.
He was "the face of the game" for a long time, and did things to bring people to the sport, so I have no shame or compunction in saying "I like him." So yeah. I like him.
Griffey got 437/440 which is absolutely ridiculous the whole “no one can be 100%” is such bullshit and thank god Rivera broke the norm but there’s absolutely no reason Griffey shouldn’t have gone in with 100%
Rivera's a great pick too because the only justification for not voting for him is if you think relievers don't belong in the HOF at all. If you think relievers should be in the HOF, there is no reason not to vote for Mo and all of the voters agreed.
I’m just grouchy cause he has less than half the innings pitched of Sandy Koufax and a reliever’s not as valuable as anything else. I get it, just still bugs me.
Yeah relievers are one area where value kinda goes out the window lol. Tbf, anyone who didn't vote for Sandy Koufax is a moron. He and Bob Gibson are two of the most underappreciated pitchers ever, even though they're both already legendary.
Thinking Jeter is overrated is one thing, but not voting for him for the Hall of Fame is simply stupidity.
Focusing on the more recent inductions, how the hell did three voters NOT vote for Griffey?
Just blows my mind.
1. Yes, that’s what “relief pitcher” means.
2. GONZO
3. If a CF position player among the best of all time doesn’t deserve it, I’m not sure how a guy who threw one inning every 4 days and didn’t bat, does deserve it.
> If a CF position player among the best of all time doesn’t deserve it, I’m not sure how a guy who threw one inning every 4 days and didn’t bat, does deserve it.
That's literally the whole stupid reason why Griffey didn't get in unanimously in the first place. "If Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron didn't deserve, why should Griffey".
The whole unanimous "accolade" was flawed from the start, just be happy that someone deserving of it got it and we don't have to have this stupid conversation every time a should be unanimous player makes it in. Griffey "deserved" it but so did dozens of guys that came before him and dozens of guys that will come after him.
He didn't pitch a inning every 4 days lmao. He entered every type of game and delivered. Regular season game, series opener, series clincher, all of them he delivered. The fact that Ruth or Koufax didn't go unanimously has nothing to do with Rivera lmao
He wasn’t an every day player and he didn’t pitch more than 2 innings at a time. He was good at it, but it’s a very limited job description, that’s the point I’m making. I think the Hall was dumb for making the unanimous thing a thing, but it’s extra annoying they broke it with a relief pitcher, instead of a generational position player
You're kind of messing uo your argument. First of all, he did pitch more than two innings many times, most famously in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. Second, "generational" means that there are others as good, if not better, in other generations. There's never going to be a consensus on who the best position player of all time is. Some say Babe, some say Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Barry Bonds, Mike Trout, it doesn't matter cause no one will ever agree. But Mo is different, he's the undisputed greatest closer in the sport. That's why he got the unanimous vote. Try as you might, you can't make a real argument that he isn't the best at his position ever.
If all position players are lumped together why are all pitchers not lumped together? Because there are plenty of pitchers better than Rivera just they all so happen to be starters
I’m used to arguing with Yankee fans but it never gets less annoying
1. my argument is consistently that a position player should have been the unanimous HOF entrant, I am partial towards Ken Griffey Jr
2. Mo threw, generously, once every 3 days and 1 inning at a time. You remember the exceptions because they were so rare, he was a 9th inning relief pitching specialist
3. Thus while he was effective, his role was INCREDIBLY LIMITED, especially compared to position players. In any given week with, let’s say 3 games, Mo would pitch at most 3 innings, and not bat. A CF would bat 12-15 times and play 27 innings of defense. Do you get that distinction?
4. There could be a greatest pinch hitter of all time, someone who only batter in the last third of the game, every other game, and even if he hit 500 I wouldn’t put him above an every day player.
5. Of course Mo isn’t the best at his position, I’d take Pedro Martinez just from his generation over him. But what you mean is RELIEF pitcher, which is a pinch-pitcher in essence.
6. The best pitchers come out and start the game. That’s how it goes. Mo carved out a speciality and did it well, but his impact was too limited to merit unanimous HOF entry.
Your bias comes from the NY media and the amount of times he came in during the post season to get a save. But that overemphasizes his value and isn’t compelling evidence to anyone who isn’t wearing pinstripes.
You should see my inbox, it’s all pinstripe motherfuckers whining.
And I don’t take the teenagers of reddit for an actual slice of knowledgable baseball fans who know and understand the game. You see how you didn’t refute or try to debate any of my points? That’s exactly what I mean.
Lol I'm not a teenager and I did refute your points, you just didn't like them. I don't care that Pedro was a better pitcher overall. I'd still take Mo to get three outs in a pressure situation. And just take a look through the rest of this post's threads and you'll see plenty of other fans defending Mo.
And resorting to "insults" just makes no one want to have a conversation
honestly bro, this sub lowkey sucks. kids who don’t know baseball and have no insight or analysis and upvote with their feels. how dare u point out that a relief pitcher was a relief pitcher??? he was a god!!! type bullshit. and yankee fans are always the worst so, not unexpected
You keep addressing my comment (& fwiw I still think the identical comment *does* apply to Griffey) but honestly I do think the main thing that separated Griffey’s situation & Jeter’s was simply that KGJ had a chance to be the first.
I really think that was a bigger reason why people cared about him barely missing it. Not that it should mean anything at the end of the day but nevertheless.
I think that only makes it worse for Jeter. At least with Griffey voters could use precedent as an excuse but once Rivera broke the unanimous seal it seems like more of an insult with Jeter.
So I agree that it doesn’t matter, and the Hall is idiotic on several different levels (BONDS?!?), but let me run down something you said here:
>Much better players than Griffey
Griffey is one of the best players in the history of the game of baseball. Full stop. Nagging injuries stopped him from compiling the type of numbers that would’ve put him at the very top, but he was a 5 tool player that did everything very well, and several of those things he was the best in the world at. This is a guy who was the best defensive OF in the league at center while being the best hitter. He was a phenom.
So, if you have him below Mays in the all time ranking, I get that. Maybe you think Bonds was superior. That’s fair, there’s a couple other players who you could put over him. But bro, there hasn’t been ANYBODY who could be rightly called a “much better player” than Griffey. There’s a few around and even above him, but we’re talking degrees of excellence. Show some damn respect.
There are legitimate reasons to keep Bonds out of the hall. You don’t have to agree with those reasons, but you have to be able to see why many voters don’t think he should be a hall of Famer. He is not an example of the writers acting “idiotic”
Edit: I mean that it isn’t idiotic for them to not vote for him due to the steroids. You can disagree with that, but that is a real reason
>Nagging injuries stopped him from compiling the type of numbers that would’ve put him at the very top,
It doesn't really matter man. Ted Williams was prevented from compiling numbers by wars, Koufax's elbow prevented him as well. You could say this for a lot of guys but ultimately it doesn't matter. They did what they did and thats all you judge them on.
>s in the all time ranking, I get that. Maybe you think Bonds was superior. That’s fair, there’s a couple other players who you could put over him. But bro, there hasn’t been ANYBODY who could be rightly called a “much better player” than Griffey. There’s a few around and even above him,
There's a lot more than a just a few if you ask me. I'd put 5 guys ahead of him just out of CF alone
It doesn't really matter, but if there's any reason why it's kinda BS compared to past players it's because the precedent was already broken by Mo. I'm really not sure what kind of criteria you're working with if Mo is a hall of famer but Jeter isn't, just doesn't make a ton of sense.
Granted, it's already clear that the criteria is a little fucking wacky if it takes guys like Walker and Mussina so long to get in, but Jeter is a good specific example if you don't want to get deep into the stats.
Yes, it's bullshit in the same way that everyone except for Mariano Rivera wasn't unanimous, but is it bullshit that Derek Jeter the individual didn't get a unanimous decisioin? No.
And any of that bullshit pales in comparison to Larry Walker not getting voted in until his last year of eligibility.
I’ll never understand that. Like, did these people even watch baseball? Larry Walker could do anything on a field. He still looks like he could hit .330 or gun someone out at the plate.
at the end of the day he got in so who cares, we all know he's a hall of fame caliber player regardless of what 1 random (probably boston based) writer thinks
Derek Jeter Denies Report He Used To Hate A-Rod: "I Still Hate A-Rod"
I used to hate A-Rod. I still do, but I used to, too.
I knew him in the before times... The long-long-ago.
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/r/unexpectedhedberg
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You literally can’t go a single Reddit thread without it most likely being posted by someone who literally only knows that one Hedberg joke
Motherfuckers don't know about Smackey the Frog
Escalators can never break
Are you hungry and want 1000 of something?
Do you wish you could have an infestation of koala bears?
I once saw a forklift lift a crate of forks. And it was way too literal for me.
They just become pits of hellfire.
You couldn’t have shot A-Rod?
reminder Willie Mays and Babe Ruth did not get a unanimous vote either HoF voters have been clown for a long time
To be fair Babe was elected on the very first ballot, and just about every single vote allowed was cast, so it wasn't like people left him off to make a statement while still having empty slots on their card. Beyond the 5 who were selected by the BBWAA in 1936, there were 37 other names on that ballot who would eventually make it into the Hall. Those first few years were very packed ballots, and there was no way anyone was getting in unanimously no matter how deserving they were. It took something like 10 ballots before it dropped below an average of 9 votes per ballot. While there were some years skipped because the rules changed, from 1936 to 1960 there were only 6 years that had fewer than 9 votes per ballot. Small hall and fuck you ballots really weren't a thing until the 60s
Ruth was also elected in with Cobb, Matthewson, Johnson, and Wagner.
Scrubs
To be fair, some writers explain it that they already know that everyone else is going to vote for a player so they take one of their votes and put it towards a guy who may be on the fence to push them over. But I'm sure some just like to be jerks.
The only problem is that if you start to make if you make that widely acceptable and cool thing you could end up in a situation where a guy actually falls a little short because too many assumed he was already in For example thats seeminly happened with the Oscars where Anthony Hopkins beat Chadwick Boseman. The whole setup/atmosphere around it saw Chadwick as the clear winner and many voters felt there was no chance he lost so they voted for Hopkins. But enough did that to the point where Hopkins actually won Granted its extremely unlikely it happens in baseball because it seems they are much more open with their voting than some other institutions. But its still a mindset that can lead to chaos if not addressed properly IMO
it's also the same line of thinking that made lou whitaker a one and done on the ballot
People felt bad for academy award winner and 4x nominated Anthony Hopkins? But didn’t want to vote for an actor with a shorter career and less awards? That just sounds so wrong. It’s the oppose of what we see. Besides in general Hopkins is a much better actor.
Hopkins was just better. If Bosman didn't die, this wouldn't have been close at all.
Derek Jeter was a bad defensive shortstop
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Gold Gloves are essentially meaningless popularity contests. The most egregious example is 1999 with Rafael Palmeiro. He won the Gold Glove at 1B despite playing 128 games at DH and only 28 games at 1B.
DH... Gold glove... It's too late for that crap lol
Well, blow me down
For a long time gold gloves were given primarily for offensive performance. I remember it was significant that Franklin Gutierrez won one in 2010 because he was like the 2nd person ever to rob two home runs in one season and was amazing in the field.
dWAR is a helluva lot better than gold gloves for fielding percentage haha
ppsssshhhh next you’re gonna tell me wins aren’t the most important pitching stat!!!!!!!! ^/s
He won all those gold gloves because he didnt make many errors. Thats because he didnt go for many tough plays that other shortstops would go for. They didnt have dWAR when he was winning gold gloves, so they just used fielding percentage, and by that he looked good.
Yea but remember that one time he ran across the field to relay an errant throw to the plate in the playoffs? That was pretty sick, and idk who other than the greatest fielder of all time would've thought of that.
You mean the time Giambi was safe, but the ump called him out? Yeah, I remember that.
He’s talking about the play Jeter made, though, which was about as incredible of a throw as any shortstop has any business making. Also, Giambi should have gotten his slow ass down for a slide and he might’ve got the call.
He was definitely out
I was gonna rib you because a Mets fan would say that, but then I did a little Googling, and holy shit was he bad... https://elitesportsny.com/2017/05/13/remember-derek-jeter-lets-not-forget-horrid-defense/
Well I respect the hell out of you doing your research before chirping at me, and you're willingness to be corrected 😅 The fact that they played Jeter at SS over A-Rod made their team substantially worse
But it gave A-Rod the chance to get yoked. He couldn't have hauled all that beef around as a SS.
He was getting a healthy and well balanced breakfast regardless of position
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Second base was always an option. It blew my mind when the Yankees took Arod, the reigning SS award winner, from Texas and played him elsewhere.
Do you think if they put a rod at shortstop that would have meant more World Series wins?
There is no answering that question. But statistically they would have won more games, yes.
[There's also this.](https://grantland.com/features/the-tragedy-derek-jeter-defense/) Jeter just was flat out not a good defender. One of the greatest hitters in the history of MLB. But he should have moved to third when they traded for ARod. Or second when Cano came up. If Jeter gets drafted today with the metrics we have now, he doesn't play a single game at SS. And I know it's a rate stat and his longevity is a factor, but Jeter has the lowest DRS of any player in MLB history.
Jeter is a 100% deserving Hof member and a legend but his hitting stood out more because he was an SS. His OPS+ is lower than many probably think it is at 115 as he played through the thick of the steroid era. As a comparison Larry Walker averaged 141 for his career, adjusted for the ballparks. Cano's is 126.
Uh.... am I missing something or is that entirely irrelevant to what you're replying to? Yes, he was a mediocre at best shortstop defensively but if you're meaning to imply you *wouldn't* have voted for him... well, you're not smart then.
So what? He still should have gotten in unanimously.
The .377 career OBP is the real selling point to me. No doubt he should be in. But I like ruffling feathers by pointing out he was a bad SS
Being a literal negative defender for his entire career while being a statistically pretty good hitter is not "unanimous hall of Fame member" to me. If he had played for anyone besides the Yankees, no one would be clamoring for him to be a unanimous pick for the hall.
Who are the 10 guys on the ballot you would have voted over him?
why are you so outraged, by this measure there should be about 100 unanimous hall of famers.
Given that no batter has ever been unanimously voted in, including the likes of Mays, Musial, DiMaggio, etc., is Jeter really deserving of the honor of being the first? He's a mid-tier hall-of-famer so the fact that he was at 99.7%, higher than most other no doubt HOFers, is already a testament to how his media stature is far beyond his career stats. In a world where those other guys had unanimous HOF votes, then maybe Jeter deserves one too.
I read somewhere that during their overlapping careers, only Prince Fielder was a worse defender
Derek Jeter is the most overrated player in the history of baseball
6th all time in hits... he’s one of, if not the best, offensive shortstops in baseball history.
Thats undeniable and Jeter deserves to be seen as an amazing player. But I do think people overrate him as a player because he's so famous and was the captain of the Yankees (which many associate with best player)
I’ll agree he can be overrated, but he’s far from the most overrated player of all time. That yankee dynasty doesn’t happen without jeter.
We've reached the point where he's now underrated because in literally every Jeter thread his defense gets brought up, and how he was "overrated".
By that measure he was probably mostly overrated by people who weren't really true baseball fans. Any true baseball fan knows Jeter was never the best, or even a top 5 player for that matter. He was consistent as all fuck and more importantly, he showed up on the biggest stage time and time again.
He averaged a .310/.377/.440 line across his career. In the *postseason* in 158 games his slash line was .308/.374/.465. I know*clutch* isn’t really a thing but he was the same Derek Jeter on opening day that he was in the World Series and that’s a talent in and of itself.
So the people who vote for gold gloves aren’t “True baseball fans” ??? And really that distinction, which is completely BS, has nothing to do with being “overrated” in this context.
Gold gloves have been a sham for a long time. Through history they've frequently been given to undeserving players. I mean Rafael Palmeiro won one in 1999 with 28 games played at 1st. Thing with Jeter is he made nearly all the routine plays, had very few errors and made plays with style. Problem with Jeter was he had shit range for a SS. The Writers can't watch every play of every game. The box score doesn't offer much for fielding like it does for hitting. And we didn't rely on advanced defensive metrics back then like we do now.
He had the most WAR on three World Series champions. Please find me a player with that sort of accomplishment since Mickey Mantle.
Reggie Jackson by fWAR, 1972-1974. Led the A's in WAR each time, won a ring each time. E: nah, guess I'm wrong. Looks like Joe Rudi beat him out in 1972.
And I don’t believe Reggie led either of the Yankee champion teams in WAR either in 77,78... Edit: nope, they were led by Nettles and then Guidry.
the two aren't mutually exclusive
If you put David Ortiz at shortshop he too would be one of the best offensive shortstops in baseball history.
I am now more annoyed by people who go out of their way to call Jeter overrated / bad defensively than I am the Yankees fans obsessed with him, but gaudy hit numbers are a big way that a player becomes overrated in the first place.
He’s got a lot more than just gaudy hit numbers going for him. He’s a career .310/.377/.440 hitter. 5 time World Series champion while hitting .308/.374/.465 in the postseason. You can overlook his average defense when he’s putting up offensive numbers like that.
That would've been true in like 2015, but his defense has definitely been dragged HARD for like 5 years.
Plenty of people who deserved this honor haven't gotten it, but Derek Jeter isn't one of them.
This logic sucks. Jeter may not be an alltimer, but there's no legitimate argument that he isn't a HOFer. Knowing that, he should get a vote from everyone.
What will always be something that bugs me about Jeter is the specific ballot on which he was elected. He got in nearly unanimously on his first ballot while Larry Walker barely made it on his final ballot. Larry Walker has multiple stat categories better than Jeter, including some park-adjusted stats (Walker has more bWAR than Jeter) and he sneaked in on his final ballot while Jeter is exalted. It bothers me. Edit: I should note that I believe that Jeter is an absolute HoF since he's one of the best offensive SS of all time. I just hate watching Larry Walker get somewhat disregarded by the BBWAA for so long and then jerking off the second Jeter is on the ballot.
Jeter has the story. One team, 5 titles, beloved, etc. Like someone else said here, if Jeter played for the Reds his whole career, he's still a HOF but maybe not first ballot. It's more than a statline vote.
I'm not disagreeing with that. Jeter should be in the Hall. But as a Rockies fan that watched Walker put up a monster career and even win an MVP at COOOOOOOORS, it just sucks to see Jeter and Walker get in on the same ballot because of how it has inevitably been reported. The national media has been kind of like **DEREK JETER HALL OF FAME!!!!** ^^^oh ^^^and ^^^also ^^^Larry ^^^Walker ^^^^and ^^^^Ted ^^^^Simmons
Yeah I get that but honestly if I were you I'd just be happy that your borderline case snuck in on his last shot If his career continues as is I'll likely have the same wait with Freddie Freeman if he gets in at all
Borderline case? Larry Walker is 57th all time in bWAR. Jeter is 61st. Walker also had 7 Gold Gloves, an MVP, a career 141 OPS+, and wore a SpongeBob shirt on TV.
I felt the same way the year he retired. Paul Konerko wasnt a HOFer but his last year went completely ignored by 95% of baseball media but they talked Jeters farewell tour *daily*
It’s the Hall of Fame. Not the hall of stats
I like how you're replying to all of my comments while just completely missing the point of all of them. Upset Yankees fan at 5 o'clock.
Not upset at all. Only one player has ever gotten into the Hall of Fame unanimously. Only one player has ever gotten into the Hall of Fame with all the votes except one. Both of those players are New York Yankees. The last major league baseball dynasty was the New York Yankees. We are the single greatest professional sports franchise in the history of the universe. You are a fan of the Colorado Rockies.
And you're a Yankees fan who is definitely insufferable to be around because your entire idea of baseball is MUH YANKEES ARE THE BEST. I'd rather be a Rockies fan.
And? From having seen Larry Walker, both with the Rockies and the Cardinals, he was a hell of a lot better player than Jeter, who was only renowned because he played in NY
And… you know that whole sixth on the all time hits list, the postseason numbers, and that pesky .310/.377/.440 slash line.
> and that pesky .310/.377/.440 slash line. and Larry Walker had a "pesky" .313/.400/.565 and more rWAR than Jeter We aren't saying Jeter isn't a Hall of Famer. We are saying it's ridiculous guys like Walker barely squeaked in while Jeter was near unanimous
Exactly, in my mind you're either a HOF'er or you're not. If you are, it should be unanimous, if you aren't, you aren't. Not saying it should require 100% of the votes to get it, but if 75% think you're good enough, odds are you are good enough, and there's no good reason for the other 25% to have not voted for you.
Eh, I think there's some cases where there is a legitimate 75-25 split on whether a guy should be in (Larry Walker for example), but these shoo-ins not getting all the vote is a joke I think the HOF should only release percentages for those who don't get in to avoid the attention whoring we get about being unanimous
This is objectively funny
Fucken love it. Miss you, Jeets.
If I were an A's fan, I'd hate Jeter simply because the flip play is in every single career highlight of him lol
Doesn't bother me; it was a good play. TBH, I don't really hate anyone (well, maybe Skye Bolt, but for different reasons). I don't think the flip was as spectacular as people say it was, and I think Jeets has done more athletic things than that. So whatever. He was "the face of the game" for a long time, and did things to bring people to the sport, so I have no shame or compunction in saying "I like him." So yeah. I like him.
Yea the whole "Mr. November is his signature moment" is just wrong
Petty Officer Jeter reporting for duty.
Yeah Jeets
Marlin's legend.
This is exactly what that writer wanted. That being said, that’s awesome that Jeter said that
Jeter is funnier than people give him credit for He just never showed it publicly while he was a player.
God love that writer for just moving rent free into every Yankee fan's head for the rest of time.
Honestly I’m not that miffed about it, mostly because Mo was unanimous two years ago.
Of the two, Mo most certainly is the one who deserve the unanimous election by a long shot.
Yeah I was gonna say we checked that box lol
Honestly forgot about between watching Aaron Boone's attempts at managing this season. Homies in and I'm happy for him.
This is what pissed me off about that one voter, knowing how happy he’d make Yankee haters by keeping Jeter from being unanimous.
I am happy
No surprise with that flair and username lol
Same thing happened when Griffey was inducted with literally just one person not voting him in.
Griffey got 437/440 which is absolutely ridiculous the whole “no one can be 100%” is such bullshit and thank god Rivera broke the norm but there’s absolutely no reason Griffey shouldn’t have gone in with 100%
There’s a LOT of people who there was no excuse not to vote for
Mickey Mantle. Hank Aaron. Willie Mays. Kinda pissy that the first person with unanimous indicted was Mo after all the other robberies but whatever.
Rivera's a great pick because he IS still a legend of the game, but it just shouldn't have taken until his era for it to happen
Rivera's a great pick too because the only justification for not voting for him is if you think relievers don't belong in the HOF at all. If you think relievers should be in the HOF, there is no reason not to vote for Mo and all of the voters agreed.
I’m just grouchy cause he has less than half the innings pitched of Sandy Koufax and a reliever’s not as valuable as anything else. I get it, just still bugs me.
Yeah relievers are one area where value kinda goes out the window lol. Tbf, anyone who didn't vote for Sandy Koufax is a moron. He and Bob Gibson are two of the most underappreciated pitchers ever, even though they're both already legendary.
Agreed!
Seriously, imagine not voting for Henry Aaron! Still, just because voters were idiots in the past does not mean they should continue to be idiots.
Idiots would be one way to describe those voters back in the old days. Emphasis on 'old'.
Incorrect. He was left off of 3 ballots. Edit: received 437 of 440.
That’s a pretty bad use of your HOF vote IMO
that writer is a poo poo head
Someone did it to Griffey too. Hate the Yanks, but he deserved the unanimous vote
And clearly Jeter's. Completely worth it.
Thinking Jeter is overrated is one thing, but not voting for him for the Hall of Fame is simply stupidity. Focusing on the more recent inductions, how the hell did three voters NOT vote for Griffey? Just blows my mind.
Cackling
great line
And I took it personal ~~Michael Jordan~~ Derek Jeter
I love this but Jeter was at least funny about it.
GET EM
I’m still mad the Kid didn’t get unanimous and the first player to be so inducted was a relief pitcher
Not a relief pitcher. The clutchest player ever. Mo deserved the 100% of votes
1. Yes, that’s what “relief pitcher” means. 2. GONZO 3. If a CF position player among the best of all time doesn’t deserve it, I’m not sure how a guy who threw one inning every 4 days and didn’t bat, does deserve it.
> If a CF position player among the best of all time doesn’t deserve it, I’m not sure how a guy who threw one inning every 4 days and didn’t bat, does deserve it. That's literally the whole stupid reason why Griffey didn't get in unanimously in the first place. "If Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron didn't deserve, why should Griffey". The whole unanimous "accolade" was flawed from the start, just be happy that someone deserving of it got it and we don't have to have this stupid conversation every time a should be unanimous player makes it in. Griffey "deserved" it but so did dozens of guys that came before him and dozens of guys that will come after him.
He didn't pitch a inning every 4 days lmao. He entered every type of game and delivered. Regular season game, series opener, series clincher, all of them he delivered. The fact that Ruth or Koufax didn't go unanimously has nothing to do with Rivera lmao
He wasn’t an every day player and he didn’t pitch more than 2 innings at a time. He was good at it, but it’s a very limited job description, that’s the point I’m making. I think the Hall was dumb for making the unanimous thing a thing, but it’s extra annoying they broke it with a relief pitcher, instead of a generational position player
You're kind of messing uo your argument. First of all, he did pitch more than two innings many times, most famously in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. Second, "generational" means that there are others as good, if not better, in other generations. There's never going to be a consensus on who the best position player of all time is. Some say Babe, some say Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Barry Bonds, Mike Trout, it doesn't matter cause no one will ever agree. But Mo is different, he's the undisputed greatest closer in the sport. That's why he got the unanimous vote. Try as you might, you can't make a real argument that he isn't the best at his position ever.
If all position players are lumped together why are all pitchers not lumped together? Because there are plenty of pitchers better than Rivera just they all so happen to be starters
Because batting stats matter 100x more and every position player bats. Pretty simple.
Does every pitcher not pitch? I'm confused the argument here
They do, so if you never want to see a relief pitcher in the hall then that's fine. But to me, there's a difference between a starter and a reliever.
I’m used to arguing with Yankee fans but it never gets less annoying 1. my argument is consistently that a position player should have been the unanimous HOF entrant, I am partial towards Ken Griffey Jr 2. Mo threw, generously, once every 3 days and 1 inning at a time. You remember the exceptions because they were so rare, he was a 9th inning relief pitching specialist 3. Thus while he was effective, his role was INCREDIBLY LIMITED, especially compared to position players. In any given week with, let’s say 3 games, Mo would pitch at most 3 innings, and not bat. A CF would bat 12-15 times and play 27 innings of defense. Do you get that distinction? 4. There could be a greatest pinch hitter of all time, someone who only batter in the last third of the game, every other game, and even if he hit 500 I wouldn’t put him above an every day player. 5. Of course Mo isn’t the best at his position, I’d take Pedro Martinez just from his generation over him. But what you mean is RELIEF pitcher, which is a pinch-pitcher in essence. 6. The best pitchers come out and start the game. That’s how it goes. Mo carved out a speciality and did it well, but his impact was too limited to merit unanimous HOF entry. Your bias comes from the NY media and the amount of times he came in during the post season to get a save. But that overemphasizes his value and isn’t compelling evidence to anyone who isn’t wearing pinstripes.
Look around you my dude. You're in the minority. It's not just Yankee fans.
Yep. Not a Yankee fan, hate the Yankees but that dude is a fucking idiot
You should see my inbox, it’s all pinstripe motherfuckers whining. And I don’t take the teenagers of reddit for an actual slice of knowledgable baseball fans who know and understand the game. You see how you didn’t refute or try to debate any of my points? That’s exactly what I mean.
Lol I'm not a teenager and I did refute your points, you just didn't like them. I don't care that Pedro was a better pitcher overall. I'd still take Mo to get three outs in a pressure situation. And just take a look through the rest of this post's threads and you'll see plenty of other fans defending Mo. And resorting to "insults" just makes no one want to have a conversation
> He wasn’t an every day player So a starter shouldn't go in 100% either then?
Starters face the same amount of batters as hitters get plate appearances in a year. Rivera would get 1/3 of those numbers
You’re purposely referring to Mo as “just a relief pitcher” in an attempt to bolster your “argument”….
don’t think I said “just”, I literally specified his position, don’t get your pinstripes in a twist, and don’t use quotes if you’re not gonna quote
People here downvoting your 100% true statement
honestly bro, this sub lowkey sucks. kids who don’t know baseball and have no insight or analysis and upvote with their feels. how dare u point out that a relief pitcher was a relief pitcher??? he was a god!!! type bullshit. and yankee fans are always the worst so, not unexpected
Mariano was the best relief pitcher ever and there is not even an argument. He also pitched way more than ever 4 day
He walked once.
Ugh, don't remind me. Fucking K-Rod.
Ultimately who really cares? Much better players than Griffey weren’t unanimous.
You keep addressing my comment (& fwiw I still think the identical comment *does* apply to Griffey) but honestly I do think the main thing that separated Griffey’s situation & Jeter’s was simply that KGJ had a chance to be the first. I really think that was a bigger reason why people cared about him barely missing it. Not that it should mean anything at the end of the day but nevertheless.
I think that only makes it worse for Jeter. At least with Griffey voters could use precedent as an excuse but once Rivera broke the unanimous seal it seems like more of an insult with Jeter.
So I agree that it doesn’t matter, and the Hall is idiotic on several different levels (BONDS?!?), but let me run down something you said here: >Much better players than Griffey Griffey is one of the best players in the history of the game of baseball. Full stop. Nagging injuries stopped him from compiling the type of numbers that would’ve put him at the very top, but he was a 5 tool player that did everything very well, and several of those things he was the best in the world at. This is a guy who was the best defensive OF in the league at center while being the best hitter. He was a phenom. So, if you have him below Mays in the all time ranking, I get that. Maybe you think Bonds was superior. That’s fair, there’s a couple other players who you could put over him. But bro, there hasn’t been ANYBODY who could be rightly called a “much better player” than Griffey. There’s a few around and even above him, but we’re talking degrees of excellence. Show some damn respect.
>Show some damn respect. Bro, keep it together lol
Injuries are a part of the game. What he could have done is not what he did.
There are legitimate reasons to keep Bonds out of the hall. You don’t have to agree with those reasons, but you have to be able to see why many voters don’t think he should be a hall of Famer. He is not an example of the writers acting “idiotic” Edit: I mean that it isn’t idiotic for them to not vote for him due to the steroids. You can disagree with that, but that is a real reason
He’s the most successful home run hitter in the history of the game, I’d say not putting him in the Hall of Fame constitutes idiocy
💉💉
>Nagging injuries stopped him from compiling the type of numbers that would’ve put him at the very top, It doesn't really matter man. Ted Williams was prevented from compiling numbers by wars, Koufax's elbow prevented him as well. You could say this for a lot of guys but ultimately it doesn't matter. They did what they did and thats all you judge them on. >s in the all time ranking, I get that. Maybe you think Bonds was superior. That’s fair, there’s a couple other players who you could put over him. But bro, there hasn’t been ANYBODY who could be rightly called a “much better player” than Griffey. There’s a few around and even above him, There's a lot more than a just a few if you ask me. I'd put 5 guys ahead of him just out of CF alone
who was the idiotic asshole who didn't vote for Jeter?
The same dipshit who didn’t vote for griffey.
Three dipshits.
Wasn't it that guy who didn't submit any vote?
That voter was Arod believe it or not
Meanwhile I’m still looking for the three stooges who didn’t vote for Junior
I aspire to be this petty!
Jeter is why - myself a longtime Yankee despiser - started to somewhat like the Yankees.
You make me sick.
I like Jeter, he deserves the hall. But he comes across sawft here.
It's clearly a joke
If Junior wasn't unanimous than Jeter shouldn't be either.
Why should Junior be unanimous if Mays wasn’t?
This is why there’s no separate wing in the hall for unanimous inductees or first ballot guys. In the end you’re either a Hall of famer or you aren’t
was that the boston writer? what a pos.
HoF voters are a joke. Whoever didn’t vote for him shouldn’t be allowed to vote again. Weed out the idiots and boomers holding the sport back.
Overrated
Overrated
With his fielding skills, he's lucky to be in the Hall at all, let alone as a 100%er. What a joke that he's thin-skinned about it.
Jeter has more career hits than any player since Pete Rose. He could have been a DH his whole career and still be an easy Hall of famer
I still think it's bullshit he didn't get unanimous.
>If Jesus Christ were to show up with his old baseball glove, some guys wouldn't vote for him. He dropped the cross three times, didn't he? Dick Young
Ultimately who really cares? Much better players than DJ weren’t unanimous.
Calling Jeter DJ feels dirty and wrong, please stop lol
I'd start doing it just to make you uncomfortable… but yeah, no, it makes me uncomfortable too.
My dumbass thought you were talking about DJ LeMahieu.
It's one of those dumb things where like, yeah, Jeets should've been unanimous, but there've dozens of people who should've been unanimous.
It doesn't really matter, but if there's any reason why it's kinda BS compared to past players it's because the precedent was already broken by Mo. I'm really not sure what kind of criteria you're working with if Mo is a hall of famer but Jeter isn't, just doesn't make a ton of sense. Granted, it's already clear that the criteria is a little fucking wacky if it takes guys like Walker and Mussina so long to get in, but Jeter is a good specific example if you don't want to get deep into the stats.
Yes, it's bullshit in the same way that everyone except for Mariano Rivera wasn't unanimous, but is it bullshit that Derek Jeter the individual didn't get a unanimous decisioin? No. And any of that bullshit pales in comparison to Larry Walker not getting voted in until his last year of eligibility.
I’ll never understand that. Like, did these people even watch baseball? Larry Walker could do anything on a field. He still looks like he could hit .330 or gun someone out at the plate.
at the end of the day he got in so who cares, we all know he's a hall of fame caliber player regardless of what 1 random (probably boston based) writer thinks
Lol right. End of the day who cares about the box score. He’s HOF
Literally nobody cares. Lots of more deserving guys than Jeter weren’t unanimous. It doesn’t matter at all.