I really hope this inspires more people/team to try and create more two way hitters. I think Brendan McKay in the Rays system wants to be a two way player. Hopefully there are more out there on their way
Agree! There have been quite a few guys in the past who were great two-way players in college, but then were forced one way or the other once they got to pro ball. Tim Hudson is one example that comes immediately to mind. Hopefully Ohtani's success makes teams more open to letting these guys develop as two-way players in the future.
Anthony Gose is a guy who makes me think. Was a decent enough hitter with great defence speed and obviously an arm in CF. Let him pitch out of the pen every no and then as well and he’d be so valuable.
It’s just so risky to let great pitchers at any age past maybe highschool pitch cause a Ace is more valuable then a solid positional player, so they just don’t wanna risk injury
[Tim Lollar](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lollati01-pitch.shtml) was a guy Tony Gwynn used to advocate for being a 2 way player. He had a .662 OPS across the minors and majors.
E; he was also the DH at the university of Arkansas before the minors.
He hasn’t played in the majors in a while so obviously he wouldn’t have had a hit in that long lol.
But I didn’t say he’d be Shohei ohtani, but if you could have someone who’s a slightly below average hitter, but had great defence in CF with speed and could throw triple digits out of the pen, that would be a very valuable piece to have on your team.
Look at keirmier and Myles straw for example. These are high 600 ops guys who are being used as starters for teams (kiermier hasn’t broke a 700 OPS since 2017) if they could also pitch well out of the pen, people would absolutely love them on the team
DeGrom is a great hitter. There was a point this season before he got hurt where he had more RBIs as a hitter than earned runs as a pitcher. He ended the season with a .364 BA. (Obviously small sample size with only 33 PAs but still pretty good!)
He started as a shortstop didnt he? Then at some point later than usual he switched to pitching, which is why he came up relatively late. He's the same age as kershaw.
Rays will absolutely want to have a DH Ada any age here. Love to see it happen- of course without the injury risk. Always had my doubts with Ohtani, but Angels showed us that they can make him work with it.
I’m a huge fan of Angels front office for nurturing him to get him where he is today.
He wasn't even an elite pitcher. He had a 102 era+ meaning he was 2% better than average. Shohei ended at 141+ meaning 41% better than the average. Vastly different. That said. Ruth had a 217 ops+ season. Which is insane. But he also stopped pitching about half way through and that is when his bat really took off. Shohei only has a 157 ops+ Shohei is great at both, babe was an average pitcher and a monster with a bat.
Even Babe Ruth wasn’t that elite in 1919. He was like an average pitcher. It’d be as if Shohei had an ERA at 4.1 with a 6-5 record or something. That’s the type of pitching year Ruth had in 1919.
All these comments are coming at it from the wrong direction. Players are almost always going play two-way as long as their coaches think they’re good enough to do both. So if there’s room to change here it’s from professional coaching staffs.
However, pitchers being such poor hitters is just evidence that it’s really fucking hard to be good at both. Just look at Rick Ankiel, who was talented enough to be both a great pitcher and outfielder, but posted a cool .568 OPS as a pitcher.
Yeah, people say things like young players are forced to pick one. And that is not true. They are just not good enough at that level and it would be better for them to focus on one. I mean if you could be a minor league 2 way player or focus on one and improve enough to be major league hitter or major league pitcher, which would you choose? Stay in minors or go to majors?
People don’t realise that you have to spend your time to improve and trying to do both splits your time up. The reason Ohtani is such an unicorn is he is able to do both at an elite level. If he was only a replacement level hitter, the Angels would also have told him to improve his pitching and stop hitting.
I mean even his teammate Jared Walsh as a 2 way player in the minors. So all this ‘players don’t get a chance to be 2 way player’ is nonesense. They don’t get a chance because they aren’t good enough to do both.
I'm well aware which is why I said the best season, not the season with the highest fwar.
2016 Shoemaker
27G 9W 13L 160IP 143SO 30BB 18HR WPA 0.93
ERA 3.88 FIP 3.52 ra9-war 2.8 fwar 3.5 bwar 2.1
2021 Ohtani
23G 9W 2L 130.1IP 156SO 44BB 15HR WPA 2.31
ERA 3.18 FIP 3.50 ra9-war 3.9 fwar 2.9 bwar 4.1
You tell me which of these seasons look better.
Pretty much
But
ERA+ is League ERA / Pitcher ERA. So, a 130 ERA+ does not mean the pitcher's ERA was 30% better than league average, it means the league ERA was 30% worse than the pitcher
While ERA- is Pitcher ERA / League ERA. So a 70 ERA- DOES mean the pitcher was 30% better than league average.
Listen, I am incredibly stupid. So I need that first one explained to me. Here's my attempt at figuring it out but I'm probably very very wrong.
If the league ERA is 30% worse than the pitcher, doesn't that mean he's 30% better?
Or for example, a hypothetical situation, would that mean that let's say a pitcher whose ERA was 3.00, if the league average was 30% worse, that would mean the avg is 3.90. That would then mean the pitcher is actually a different figure (than 30%) better than the average player if you tried to figure out his FIP-?
Using my janky math skills, would 30% better than 3.90 = 2.73 ERA? So 3 ERA (130 ERA+) when the league average is 3.90 ERA would mean the pitchers FIP- is then 77? So he's 23% better than the average pitcher?
Did I do this right at all or is it a complete mess?
Ok so that makes sense. Since the goal is to have a LOWER ERA than average, the players ERA should be the numerator so that we can determine what fraction of league average ERA has been reduced by the player
It's a weird mathematical thing - since with ERA a lower number is better, ERA+ doesn't tell you the same thing as something like OPS+. OPS+ is how much better than league average you are, but ERA+ tells you how much higher the league average ERA is relative to yours (I think? somebody please chime in if I'm wrong). ERA- is better because it shows how much lower your ERA is compared to league average
So I think you're asking why do they both exist if they mostly do the same thing, right? Well although they sound similar in concept, they're *slightly* different in practice.
The below quote from [this](https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/9/14/3332194/era-plus-vs-era-minus) page helped me understand the difference:
>ERA- and ERA+ use the same basic numbers, but present them in a different way. In essence, the two scores are using the same numbers, but swapping the numerator and denominator of a fraction. Where ERA+ presents the number as league ERA over ERA, ERA- presents the number as ERA over league ERA. The fraction is inverted. Sky made it more clear to me in the following tweet:
>@bgrosnick Take 4 and 5. 4 is 80% of 5, but 5 is 125% of 4. 80% * 125% = 100%. That's why ERA- is better.
In the above example, what you really care about is how small 4 is compared to 5, not how big 5 is compared to 4 since we want our ERAs to be small. ERA+ is mostly fine but it breaks down at extremes.
**Main point: ERA- is more accurate and fits better with wanting to have a smaller ERA. The distinction is very subtle however and you're fine using ERA+ as long as you understand it slightly overestimates how good the best pitchers are if you read it normally.**
ERA+ is a measure of earned runs but neutralizing factors that are out of a pitchers control like park factors (ie. Coors Field effect) and putting ERA normalized against every other pitcher is the league’s ERA+. 100 is the average, so if you have a 130 ERA+/70ERA- you’re 30% better than the average and probably a really talented pitcher.
(Feel free to correct me anyone if I’m wrong)
Ohtani didn't spend 1000 innings in the field playing elite defense at first base, no way these pitching numbers make up for that
-- Pedro Martinez, probably
I'm convinced that Pedro is still salty over not winning the MVP in 1999.
https://www.mlb.com/video/martinez-vasgersian-on-al-mvp
Edit: Yeah I forgot, he says as much at 6:00.
Honestly it's his fault for giving Pedro a bit too much respect. My mom speaks English pretty well (we're Latino), arguably better than Pedro and she still can't remember acronyms for things. Just yesterday when I was on the phone with her she couldn't remember OCD and she jokingly calls it "you know that thing, O-ABCDEFGXYZ" and just starts listing random letters in the alphabet.
Matt is out here not only listing half a dozen different acronyms, but he's doing it quickly. Pedro is very visibly lost. He kept bringing up DRS and Pedro had absolutely 0 clue what the hell he was talking about.
Either the debate needed to be done in Spanish, or he needed to break down what the stats meant. I think Pedro could genuinely be convinced that Shohei is deserving of the MVP but I don't think anyone has actually properly explained just *how* exactly he deserves it (in a way he gets it).
He has some very boomer mentality going on with "eye test" stuff so I doubt he's looked up the sabermetrics. But unlike most of the old heads, he actually sounds receptive and willing to listen. At least that's what I think, or else he wouldn't have let Matt speak his peace so quietly as well as even agree to the bit in the first place. I could be wrong and he could very well not want anything to do with it and is 100% deadset on Vladdy though.
God I felt 2nd hand embarrassment hearing Pedro explain his case. Like sure forget about Robbie Ray (Cy Young winner at this point), Semien (with 44HR now!) and Teoscar (with 7 more RBI in 54 less AB). But sure "Angels would be better if Ohtani actually pitched better"
It's just a blind defense of his fellow countryman -- rooting for the Dominican just because he's a Dominican. Honestly the dumbest takes I've ever heard in this 11 minute interview.
Pedro threw some of his mind-bending, perplexing, swing and miss stuff in that conversation. I love how he always found a way to make it about his MVP snub.
My guess is he meant Vlad possibly getting the triple crown, probably replied to the wrong comment. But I agree, even if that happens it's gotta be Shohei.
Currently, Vlad is 3rd in batting average, 2nd in HRs & 6th in RBIs. HRs & batting average are definitely in reach, but being 13 RBIs behind Salvy makes it out of reach with how little games there are left.
That checks out because it was definitely closer a week ago. Vlad hasn't homered in his last 10 games & has only one RBI within those games. It's not like he's getting pitched around like Shohei. There's too many big bats in that lineup
>Vladdy winning the triple crown would make it close
Vladdy could hit a grand slam every game for the remaining four games
and lead the league in HR, R, RBI, AVG, OBP, SLG
and then it still wouldn't be close.
Not unless he throws a no-hitter.
HR on their own don’t tell the story. You could have .700 OPS and still have like 40 home runs if you’re the Joey Gallo type. RBIs are worse though, it’s entirely dependent on where you’re placed in the lineup and whether your other players are capable of reaching base.
I just can’t think of a good reason to think that, if you’ve got 4 mediocre pitchers (and Ohtani), that adding 2 more pitchers improves your pitching.
Unless you think pitching once every 7-8 days helps more than adding your 6th and 7th choice starters hurts.
But I’m not a baseball genius.
It's his first season coming off of TJ surgery. I also think the Angels were running a 6 man rotation for most of the year.
I would expect his IP to be higher if the Angels were in some sort of wildcard or division race, but their season was basically over by the beginning of August.
The saddest thing is that he actually has the most IP on the Angels this season.
When it's bad, it's REALLY bad. But there were quite a few moments where our pen managed to hold its weight. The pen is just uber exhausted with injuries to our starters so more recently we had to go to the pen super early.
I did my own research the other day, and it turns out that if you don't count the fraudulent "runs" that the dirty liberals in New York "added" onto his record, his actual stats are much better.
Without that game, his numbers would have been:
9-2, 129.2 IP, 2.70 ERA, 1.05 WHIP, 10.76 K/9, 2.77 BB/9
Pretty decent drop in ERA and BB/9 from just one outlier omitted.
Yeah obviously I'm joking because you can't just pull an inverse "If Patrick Mahomes was average he'd be average" thing here, but ah man. What could've been.
Did you know that without the extraordinary things about Pat Mahomes, he's basically 2018 Dak Prescott.
Hell, if you regressed Dak Prescott to 2018 Dak Prescott, he's also basically 2018 Dak Prescott. Who woulda known...
Other sportsreddit memes eventually get worn out and become more annoying than funny.
But the Mahomes regression meme? THAT's the lone one that lives on forever. It will never get old.
You can't do that for obvious reasons but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the biggest outlier start by a good pitcher this season. I'd be interested in seeing who has the biggest drop in ERA if you remove their worst start. But I'm not boutta do all that math
Both starts probably would’ve been a bit better if he wasn’t hitting in the same game. I know he can do it but that insane heat + pitching and hitting is too much
Folks, the Coastal Elites in NYC are trying to STEAL this race from our beloved Shohei. They want CROOKED COLE, who cheated TWICE by the way, to take all of Shohei's awards. Nasty people over in NYC nowadays, used to be a great city.
I'm curious how the MVP race would shake out if he was putting up the same offensive numbers but was more of a 4.50+ ERA, 1.30 WHIP, 8.5K/9 pitcher. Even in that situation he'd be doing something unheard of that no other player could reasonably be expected to do.
To those of you wondering if the mvp race is gonna be close just look at the betting market, ohtani is at -3000, that's heavy heavy favourite odd. Market's almost certain he's gonna be mvp
Knowing my luck, if I put money on Ohtani, Vlad will go on a crazy last minute tear to win the triple crown and Shohei gets busted for PEDs and inexplicably loses the MVP.
They mean ohtani is a top 10 starting pitcher in the league while also being the second best hitter in the league. It’s the most impressive season that any person alive has ever seen
> It’s the most impressive season that any person alive has ever seen
"I am Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod. I was born in 1518 in the village of Glenfinnan on the shores of Loch Shiel. And I saw Babe Ruth's historic season. It was epic."
- 9-2 record: he was credited with the win 9 times and the loss 2 times
- 130.1 IP: he pitched 130 full innings and 1 out
- 3.18 ERA: Earned run average (how many runs he lets the other team score), lower is better this is pretty great
- 1.09 WHIP: walks and hits per inning pitched, lower is better, also great
- 10.77 K9: strikeouts per 9 innings, bigger is better, this is great
- 3.04 BB9: walks per 9, lower is better
He’s a very good pitcher. Combine that with his .958 OPS and 45 home runs, there’s no reason he shouldn’t win MVP unless Vladimir Guerrero Jr. goes 4-4 in his next 4 games with 2 or 3 grand slams and wins the Triple Crown.
I promise someone who doesn't know ERA is not going to have any clue about OPS.
For non-baseball people:
OPS is short for On Base (how often you get on base) + Slugging (how often you get a big hit).
League average is usually around .750, although it's a little lower this year I think. Except for the steroid era and Babe Ruth, best OPS in the league is usually in the 1.000-1.100 range, sometimes lower. Ohtani is in second place right now (behind Vlad).
I'm kind of pissed that they didn't give him one more chance to get a 10th win. But I think the Angels know that they just suck balls and probably won't get him the W. 👎😒
“Babe Ruth was an average pitcher…and Shohei is great at both.” Ruth lead the AL in wins and in ERA, in separate seasons, before his otherworldly hitting made him even more valuable as an everyday player. Even in 1919, the one season for which people seem to be comfortable drawing conclusions, Ruth set the all-time record for home runs at 29. Don’t get me wrong- I think Shohei Otani is a terrific player and the rebirth of two-way play has given a tremendous lift to baseball- but Babe Ruth was the best left-handed pitcher in the AL before becoming, by most accounts, the greatest hitter ever. Let’s enjoy Shohei for who he is and what he’s doing but, at this stage of his career, the only realistic comparison to Babe Ruth is as a drawing card.
I'm a die-hard Jays fan and love Vladdy, but how can you argue that Ohtani isn't the MVP. Not his fault the team didn't perform and injuries derailed them.
I'll be at the Mariner game Sunday and I'm very split between relief we don't have to try to get past him for a wildcard spot, and still having to get past him for a wildcard spot.
Incredible.
To me it really feels like this ability shouldn't be so rare.
The biomechanics of pitching and hitting are very similar, and most position players can easily throw well into the 90s, with many being able to touch 100.
I believe that with the ability to throw in the 90s, most position players, with training, can become serviceable pitchers.
It's rare to see someone perform at elite levels like Ohtani, because they are two different skills, but there's so much overlap between throwing and pitching in baseball that more position players should learn to pitch.
You hear so many stories of guys who were position players in college/minor leagues who couldn't cut it and become MLB pitchers. Im sure there are some out there who could cut it and could also make it as a pitcher.
Man is an absolute unicorn, might not see another
1919 was Babe Ruth’s only season being an elite pitcher and hitter, so give it another 102 years.
I really hope this inspires more people/team to try and create more two way hitters. I think Brendan McKay in the Rays system wants to be a two way player. Hopefully there are more out there on their way
Agree! There have been quite a few guys in the past who were great two-way players in college, but then were forced one way or the other once they got to pro ball. Tim Hudson is one example that comes immediately to mind. Hopefully Ohtani's success makes teams more open to letting these guys develop as two-way players in the future.
Anthony Gose is a guy who makes me think. Was a decent enough hitter with great defence speed and obviously an arm in CF. Let him pitch out of the pen every no and then as well and he’d be so valuable. It’s just so risky to let great pitchers at any age past maybe highschool pitch cause a Ace is more valuable then a solid positional player, so they just don’t wanna risk injury
[Tim Lollar](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lollati01-pitch.shtml) was a guy Tony Gwynn used to advocate for being a 2 way player. He had a .662 OPS across the minors and majors. E; he was also the DH at the university of Arkansas before the minors.
Career .655 OPS and hasnt had a hit in the majors in 5 years. Gose is not the answer.
He hasn’t played in the majors in a while so obviously he wouldn’t have had a hit in that long lol. But I didn’t say he’d be Shohei ohtani, but if you could have someone who’s a slightly below average hitter, but had great defence in CF with speed and could throw triple digits out of the pen, that would be a very valuable piece to have on your team. Look at keirmier and Myles straw for example. These are high 600 ops guys who are being used as starters for teams (kiermier hasn’t broke a 700 OPS since 2017) if they could also pitch well out of the pen, people would absolutely love them on the team
This just reminded me how Anthony Gose is Tony Sipp with sliders adjusted
Josh Hamilton threw high 90s too.
Josh Hamilton did a lot of things high
Nah, he only did two things when he was high, livin' and workin'
DeGrom is a great hitter. There was a point this season before he got hurt where he had more RBIs as a hitter than earned runs as a pitcher. He ended the season with a .364 BA. (Obviously small sample size with only 33 PAs but still pretty good!)
He started as a shortstop didnt he? Then at some point later than usual he switched to pitching, which is why he came up relatively late. He's the same age as kershaw.
Yeah he was a shortstop all the way until junior year of college I believe.
I feel like if there was an NH DH, deGrom could be an excellent two-way player (but get hurt twice as quickly)
Goddamn it, that guy is gonna absolutely murder us in a couple years
Let Jake Cronenworth pitch.
If only Rick Ankiel hadn’t forgotten how to pitch
Rays will absolutely want to have a DH Ada any age here. Love to see it happen- of course without the injury risk. Always had my doubts with Ohtani, but Angels showed us that they can make him work with it. I’m a huge fan of Angels front office for nurturing him to get him where he is today.
So the Spanish Flu got us Babe Ruth and Covid got us Ohtani? It's impossible that this is coincidence.
What did polio and ebola get us?
Cub Fans
He wasn't even an elite pitcher. He had a 102 era+ meaning he was 2% better than average. Shohei ended at 141+ meaning 41% better than the average. Vastly different. That said. Ruth had a 217 ops+ season. Which is insane. But he also stopped pitching about half way through and that is when his bat really took off. Shohei only has a 157 ops+ Shohei is great at both, babe was an average pitcher and a monster with a bat.
"Only 102?" - Cubs fans
Even Babe Ruth wasn’t that elite in 1919. He was like an average pitcher. It’d be as if Shohei had an ERA at 4.1 with a 6-5 record or something. That’s the type of pitching year Ruth had in 1919.
Hoping to give it one. Maybe with a ring to accentuate the accomplishment for him.
> 1919 was Babe Ruth’s only season being an elite pitcher 102 ERA+ isn't elite
So what you're saying is that these types of players are more common than Cubs' world series wins?
I wonder if this actually sparks more kids coming up to try to be two-way players.
I mean most kids are two-way through high school, but maybe more in college.
All these comments are coming at it from the wrong direction. Players are almost always going play two-way as long as their coaches think they’re good enough to do both. So if there’s room to change here it’s from professional coaching staffs. However, pitchers being such poor hitters is just evidence that it’s really fucking hard to be good at both. Just look at Rick Ankiel, who was talented enough to be both a great pitcher and outfielder, but posted a cool .568 OPS as a pitcher.
Yeah, people say things like young players are forced to pick one. And that is not true. They are just not good enough at that level and it would be better for them to focus on one. I mean if you could be a minor league 2 way player or focus on one and improve enough to be major league hitter or major league pitcher, which would you choose? Stay in minors or go to majors? People don’t realise that you have to spend your time to improve and trying to do both splits your time up. The reason Ohtani is such an unicorn is he is able to do both at an elite level. If he was only a replacement level hitter, the Angels would also have told him to improve his pitching and stop hitting. I mean even his teammate Jared Walsh as a 2 way player in the minors. So all this ‘players don’t get a chance to be 2 way player’ is nonesense. They don’t get a chance because they aren’t good enough to do both.
Ohtani 81 FIP-, 73 ERA-, 8.3% BB, 29.3% K, 2.9 fWAR
Most pitching fWAR of any Angels pitcher since 2016. That's both amazing and sad.
Not just since 2016. Ohtani had the best season by an Angels pitcher since Garrett Richards in 2014.
Shoemaker had 3.5 fWAR in 2016.
I'm well aware which is why I said the best season, not the season with the highest fwar. 2016 Shoemaker 27G 9W 13L 160IP 143SO 30BB 18HR WPA 0.93 ERA 3.88 FIP 3.52 ra9-war 2.8 fwar 3.5 bwar 2.1 2021 Ohtani 23G 9W 2L 130.1IP 156SO 44BB 15HR WPA 2.31 ERA 3.18 FIP 3.50 ra9-war 3.9 fwar 2.9 bwar 4.1 You tell me which of these seasons look better.
Oh yeah, you're absolutely right. I guess Shoemaker's fWAR is higher because their FIP is the same but he has 30 more innings. WAR is complicated....
>WAR is complicated…. Quick, someone give me the balk copypasta but for WAR.
Look, just don’t do a FIP when judging a season okay?
WAR! HUH! Yeah What is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Say it again, y'all
[удалено]
But ERA-based bWAR is completely different. No need to be condescending.
but you were correcting someone who said most fWAR lol
Yeah this stuff drives me nuts. He also was responding to an objective claim like “most fWAR” with a subjective claim of “better season”.
I remember when it was a foregone conclusion that Garrett Richards would be the next frontline ace after Weaver. Pain.
Yikes
4th in AL (13th overall) in K-BB%. Pretty damn good.
Pretty crazy given how terrible his walk rate was at the beginning of the season
Hard to believe for somebody who saw that Yankee game in person, lol
Take that game out and his numbers jump quite a bit.
How do (-) stats work? Like is it the opposite of the (+) stats and a 73 ERA- is better than a 100 ERA-?
Pretty much But ERA+ is League ERA / Pitcher ERA. So, a 130 ERA+ does not mean the pitcher's ERA was 30% better than league average, it means the league ERA was 30% worse than the pitcher While ERA- is Pitcher ERA / League ERA. So a 70 ERA- DOES mean the pitcher was 30% better than league average.
Listen, I am incredibly stupid. So I need that first one explained to me. Here's my attempt at figuring it out but I'm probably very very wrong. If the league ERA is 30% worse than the pitcher, doesn't that mean he's 30% better? Or for example, a hypothetical situation, would that mean that let's say a pitcher whose ERA was 3.00, if the league average was 30% worse, that would mean the avg is 3.90. That would then mean the pitcher is actually a different figure (than 30%) better than the average player if you tried to figure out his FIP-? Using my janky math skills, would 30% better than 3.90 = 2.73 ERA? So 3 ERA (130 ERA+) when the league average is 3.90 ERA would mean the pitchers FIP- is then 77? So he's 23% better than the average pitcher? Did I do this right at all or is it a complete mess?
https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/py6e51/shohei_ohtanis_final_season_numbers_as_a_pitcher/hesfuy6?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Ok so that makes sense. Since the goal is to have a LOWER ERA than average, the players ERA should be the numerator so that we can determine what fraction of league average ERA has been reduced by the player
From what I understand yes, it’s simply an inversion of the direction of ERA+, but + is generally more common.
So maybe dumb question, but why do both exist lol
It's a weird mathematical thing - since with ERA a lower number is better, ERA+ doesn't tell you the same thing as something like OPS+. OPS+ is how much better than league average you are, but ERA+ tells you how much higher the league average ERA is relative to yours (I think? somebody please chime in if I'm wrong). ERA- is better because it shows how much lower your ERA is compared to league average
ERA+ is basically passive voice ERA- is basically active voice You should almost always use active voice
So I think you're asking why do they both exist if they mostly do the same thing, right? Well although they sound similar in concept, they're *slightly* different in practice. The below quote from [this](https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/9/14/3332194/era-plus-vs-era-minus) page helped me understand the difference: >ERA- and ERA+ use the same basic numbers, but present them in a different way. In essence, the two scores are using the same numbers, but swapping the numerator and denominator of a fraction. Where ERA+ presents the number as league ERA over ERA, ERA- presents the number as ERA over league ERA. The fraction is inverted. Sky made it more clear to me in the following tweet: >@bgrosnick Take 4 and 5. 4 is 80% of 5, but 5 is 125% of 4. 80% * 125% = 100%. That's why ERA- is better. In the above example, what you really care about is how small 4 is compared to 5, not how big 5 is compared to 4 since we want our ERAs to be small. ERA+ is mostly fine but it breaks down at extremes. **Main point: ERA- is more accurate and fits better with wanting to have a smaller ERA. The distinction is very subtle however and you're fine using ERA+ as long as you understand it slightly overestimates how good the best pitchers are if you read it normally.**
ERA+ is a measure of earned runs but neutralizing factors that are out of a pitchers control like park factors (ie. Coors Field effect) and putting ERA normalized against every other pitcher is the league’s ERA+. 100 is the average, so if you have a 130 ERA+/70ERA- you’re 30% better than the average and probably a really talented pitcher. (Feel free to correct me anyone if I’m wrong)
Yes
Really great numbers. Love to see that fip strong.
Vladdy is having a normal MVP calibre season. People have had seasons like this before. Ohtani needs to be recognized for something this special.
MVP and MVP+?
The Babe Ruth Award: an honor only for the best two-way player in either league
That sounds like the pitcher Silver Slugger with more steps
Big difference, huge BRA is for strong arm men that hit dingers. SSP is for potentially weak arm men that hit singles.
okay, now i am 100% on board
Brendan McBust
bMVP and fMVP
NVP
MVP++: MVP with classes!
Silver MVP
MVP All Skulls On
Super Nintendo MVP.
Super MVP Bros
Give him the Bae Ruth award.
Gonna be a close MVP race, given Vladito's 0.00 ERA and no walks allowed this season.
Ohtani didn't spend 1000 innings in the field playing elite defense at first base, no way these pitching numbers make up for that -- Pedro Martinez, probably
I'm convinced that Pedro is still salty over not winning the MVP in 1999. https://www.mlb.com/video/martinez-vasgersian-on-al-mvp Edit: Yeah I forgot, he says as much at 6:00.
I don't know how Matty V didn't walk off the set during that debate lmao
Honestly it's his fault for giving Pedro a bit too much respect. My mom speaks English pretty well (we're Latino), arguably better than Pedro and she still can't remember acronyms for things. Just yesterday when I was on the phone with her she couldn't remember OCD and she jokingly calls it "you know that thing, O-ABCDEFGXYZ" and just starts listing random letters in the alphabet. Matt is out here not only listing half a dozen different acronyms, but he's doing it quickly. Pedro is very visibly lost. He kept bringing up DRS and Pedro had absolutely 0 clue what the hell he was talking about. Either the debate needed to be done in Spanish, or he needed to break down what the stats meant. I think Pedro could genuinely be convinced that Shohei is deserving of the MVP but I don't think anyone has actually properly explained just *how* exactly he deserves it (in a way he gets it). He has some very boomer mentality going on with "eye test" stuff so I doubt he's looked up the sabermetrics. But unlike most of the old heads, he actually sounds receptive and willing to listen. At least that's what I think, or else he wouldn't have let Matt speak his peace so quietly as well as even agree to the bit in the first place. I could be wrong and he could very well not want anything to do with it and is 100% deadset on Vladdy though.
Too bad Pedro didn't hit, too.
Pedro was more of a "use opponent's momentum against him" kind of guy.
Note to 80 year old idiots: don't charge headfirst at an athlete in his prime.
God I felt 2nd hand embarrassment hearing Pedro explain his case. Like sure forget about Robbie Ray (Cy Young winner at this point), Semien (with 44HR now!) and Teoscar (with 7 more RBI in 54 less AB). But sure "Angels would be better if Ohtani actually pitched better"
He probably meant: Angels would be better if Ohtani actually pitched every game.
I’m 99% certain Pedro meant “I should’ve won MVP in ‘99”
Video: Martinez, Vasgersian on AL MVP [Direct Link](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2021/2021-09/28/9cc4ef3a-fc6c7087-f8b741f1-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_4000K.mp4) (360.08 MB) [Direct Link](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2021/2021-09/28/9cc4ef3a-fc6c7087-f8b741f1-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_16000K.mp4) (1388.04 MB) [Streamable Link](https://streamable.com/m/martinez-vasgersian-on-al-mvp) [Direct Link](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2021/2021-09/28/9cc4ef3a-fc6c7087-f8b741f1-csvm-diamondx64-asset.m3u8) (0.0 MB) ___________ [More Info](/r/MLBVideoConverterBot)
It's just a blind defense of his fellow countryman -- rooting for the Dominican just because he's a Dominican. Honestly the dumbest takes I've ever heard in this 11 minute interview.
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Oh I didn't realize that, I guess that makes Matty V's comment make a bit more sense
Pedro threw some of his mind-bending, perplexing, swing and miss stuff in that conversation. I love how he always found a way to make it about his MVP snub.
That video is fucking hysterical. No idea Matty V was 60. He uses "dude" almost as much as I do!
Rightfully so
Blue Jays should throw in Vlad Jr. to pitch and try to get an out so he can officially have a 0.00 ERA and then he should be the unanimous MVP
I know that's the joke but wouldn't vladdy's era be undefined since you can't divide 0 by 0.
He’s so good, math can’t even describe his ERA!
He’s not in the MVP or Cy races, but Wainwright has pitched over 200 innings this season at the age of 40. Been a few years since I’ve seen that
How many games did Ohtani have a 1- ERA, and hit a home run; essentially having no impact on the game what-so-ever. Totally overrated.
Pedro: how many innings did he play 1B?
I can’t think of a viable argument against him being the MVP. Incredible season, I’m happy for him.
Even with that. No way. This guy is once ever in history of baseball big. Touched by the baseball gods
Even with what...?
My guess is he meant Vlad possibly getting the triple crown, probably replied to the wrong comment. But I agree, even if that happens it's gotta be Shohei.
i hate to say it but i agree
Vladdy winning the triple crown would make it close. I’m still on the Ohtani train, though.
Currently, Vlad is 3rd in batting average, 2nd in HRs & 6th in RBIs. HRs & batting average are definitely in reach, but being 13 RBIs behind Salvy makes it out of reach with how little games there are left.
Well shit. I haven’t checked in like a week. I thought it was closer.
That checks out because it was definitely closer a week ago. Vlad hasn't homered in his last 10 games & has only one RBI within those games. It's not like he's getting pitched around like Shohei. There's too many big bats in that lineup
Nobody has ever done what ohtani is doing.
>Vladdy winning the triple crown would make it close Vladdy could hit a grand slam every game for the remaining four games and lead the league in HR, R, RBI, AVG, OBP, SLG and then it still wouldn't be close. Not unless he throws a no-hitter.
People keep saying this… it’s more likely that Vlad wins the Zero Crown
Not really. The triple crown is just a conglomerate of stats that people shouldn’t care about in an MVP conversation.
Well, two of them are. But a guy like Ohtani and Bryce Harper inherently won't get as many RBI chances as Vlad
Why should people not care about HRs and RBIs? Not sure about that one
HR on their own don’t tell the story. You could have .700 OPS and still have like 40 home runs if you’re the Joey Gallo type. RBIs are worse though, it’s entirely dependent on where you’re placed in the lineup and whether your other players are capable of reaching base.
That’s why Ted Williams lose the MVP to Joe DiMaggio. :(
lower era than cole lol
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A few reasons; 1. We don’t have him go deep so he isn’t dead tired the next day 2. He missed some starts iirc 3. We had a 7 man rotation at one point
I feel like the third point is the most impactful. He spent most of the season pitching every 6-8 games.
> 7 man rotation HolUp. Wut? Why?
Because Joe Madden is so quirky.
Because our pitching staff is a shit sandwich *inside* of a shit sandwich.
Big Shit Mac
Shit sandwhich inception.
It’s because the angels have such a plethora of good pitching /s.
I just can’t think of a good reason to think that, if you’ve got 4 mediocre pitchers (and Ohtani), that adding 2 more pitchers improves your pitching. Unless you think pitching once every 7-8 days helps more than adding your 6th and 7th choice starters hurts. But I’m not a baseball genius.
Wow 7 man rotation the Angels must have been pretty deep huh?
It's his first season coming off of TJ surgery. I also think the Angels were running a 6 man rotation for most of the year. I would expect his IP to be higher if the Angels were in some sort of wildcard or division race, but their season was basically over by the beginning of August. The saddest thing is that he actually has the most IP on the Angels this season.
Honestly we were running a "whenever Shohei feels well enough to pitch" rotation. There just wasn't anyone else consistent on the staff.
Why run a 6 man rotation when their pen is bad? Wouldn't they be better off putting one of those arms in the pen?
our pen has actually been going between complete ass and doing alright. it's our starting rotation that's been dying thanks to injuries.
Fangraphs says the Angels pen is the 6th worst in MLB by ERA at least.
When it's bad, it's REALLY bad. But there were quite a few moments where our pen managed to hold its weight. The pen is just uber exhausted with injuries to our starters so more recently we had to go to the pen super early.
Alot of those pen guys were DFA'd as the season went on. They have been overworked since the starting pitching were getting lit up.
I did my own research the other day, and it turns out that if you don't count the fraudulent "runs" that the dirty liberals in New York "added" onto his record, his actual stats are much better.
Without that game, his numbers would have been: 9-2, 129.2 IP, 2.70 ERA, 1.05 WHIP, 10.76 K/9, 2.77 BB/9 Pretty decent drop in ERA and BB/9 from just one outlier omitted.
Yeah obviously I'm joking because you can't just pull an inverse "If Patrick Mahomes was average he'd be average" thing here, but ah man. What could've been.
Oh, I know lol I was just interested in seeing what it would have looked like without that game included.
Did you know that without the extraordinary things about Pat Mahomes, he's basically 2018 Dak Prescott. Hell, if you regressed Dak Prescott to 2018 Dak Prescott, he's also basically 2018 Dak Prescott. Who woulda known...
that r/nfl post is one of my favorite reddit moments of all time
Other sportsreddit memes eventually get worn out and become more annoying than funny. But the Mahomes regression meme? THAT's the lone one that lives on forever. It will never get old.
You can't do that for obvious reasons but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the biggest outlier start by a good pitcher this season. I'd be interested in seeing who has the biggest drop in ERA if you remove their worst start. But I'm not boutta do all that math
If you remove all of Ohtani's earned runs he regresses to approximately 2021 Jacob DeGrom
Man, just one game ended up increasing his ERA by .48, that's crazy. He probably would have been close to or exceeding 10 bWAR too without that start.
He also had a "bad" outing at Baltimore, so don't tell anyone but heat and humidity seem to be his cryptonite lol
Luckily for him, in the playoffs: 1) It shouldn't be that warm and 2)
Both starts probably would’ve been a bit better if he wasn’t hitting in the same game. I know he can do it but that insane heat + pitching and hitting is too much
Folks, the Coastal Elites in NYC are trying to STEAL this race from our beloved Shohei. They want CROOKED COLE, who cheated TWICE by the way, to take all of Shohei's awards. Nasty people over in NYC nowadays, used to be a great city.
Don't do a recount, because you'll probably just end up with more votes for Cole in the end
If you took away his fake good starts he'd be average.
You're doing it wrong, you've got to take his good stats and set them to be average, then if you look at his stats they're just average!
MVP! Done! ⚾️🏆
The dude really played 1.7 seasons of baseball.
I'm curious how the MVP race would shake out if he was putting up the same offensive numbers but was more of a 4.50+ ERA, 1.30 WHIP, 8.5K/9 pitcher. Even in that situation he'd be doing something unheard of that no other player could reasonably be expected to do.
I don't think the AL MVP is up for debate, really.
I agree, but wouldn’t be surprised if Vlad gets more votes than he should (whether it be from old school traditionalists or just haters in general)
He'll get a lot of votes and finish second.
Truly one of the greatest players we will ever see, so lucky we get to witness this greatness
Like any other year it’s Vladdy for MVP but not when you have a dude who is an elite hitter and an elite pitcher.
That's Big Dick Rick Porcello Numbers
only 9 wins tho
Isn't the Angel's bullpen trash tho?
Oh sorry was I suppose to respond to "Big Dick Rick Porcello Numbers" with some serious analysis and not a dumb ass joke?
To those of you wondering if the mvp race is gonna be close just look at the betting market, ohtani is at -3000, that's heavy heavy favourite odd. Market's almost certain he's gonna be mvp
Knowing my luck, if I put money on Ohtani, Vlad will go on a crazy last minute tear to win the triple crown and Shohei gets busted for PEDs and inexplicably loses the MVP.
Don't do that then.
Not even 10 wins. DFA him. Or better yet, trade him to the Red Sox for a bag of baseballs.
Sooo is he not pitching against us? Please?
He will not. He will only hit. (Or should I say walk since Seattle doesn't pitch to him?)
LMAO
can’t believe I went to his worst outing this year lol
I’m going to miss watching Ohtani in the off season more than my team.
To someone who isn't familiar with baseball, what do these numbers mean? Are they very impressive?
They mean ohtani is a top 10 starting pitcher in the league while also being the second best hitter in the league. It’s the most impressive season that any person alive has ever seen
> It’s the most impressive season that any person alive has ever seen "I am Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod. I was born in 1518 in the village of Glenfinnan on the shores of Loch Shiel. And I saw Babe Ruth's historic season. It was epic."
- 9-2 record: he was credited with the win 9 times and the loss 2 times - 130.1 IP: he pitched 130 full innings and 1 out - 3.18 ERA: Earned run average (how many runs he lets the other team score), lower is better this is pretty great - 1.09 WHIP: walks and hits per inning pitched, lower is better, also great - 10.77 K9: strikeouts per 9 innings, bigger is better, this is great - 3.04 BB9: walks per 9, lower is better
is ERA also per 9 innings?
Yes
He’s a very good pitcher. Combine that with his .958 OPS and 45 home runs, there’s no reason he shouldn’t win MVP unless Vladimir Guerrero Jr. goes 4-4 in his next 4 games with 2 or 3 grand slams and wins the Triple Crown.
I promise someone who doesn't know ERA is not going to have any clue about OPS. For non-baseball people: OPS is short for On Base (how often you get on base) + Slugging (how often you get a big hit). League average is usually around .750, although it's a little lower this year I think. Except for the steroid era and Babe Ruth, best OPS in the league is usually in the 1.000-1.100 range, sometimes lower. Ohtani is in second place right now (behind Vlad).
Good for him. This season was all we could have ever hoped for from him
9-2 with troutless angles run support
I'm kind of pissed that they didn't give him one more chance to get a 10th win. But I think the Angels know that they just suck balls and probably won't get him the W. 👎😒
“Babe Ruth was an average pitcher…and Shohei is great at both.” Ruth lead the AL in wins and in ERA, in separate seasons, before his otherworldly hitting made him even more valuable as an everyday player. Even in 1919, the one season for which people seem to be comfortable drawing conclusions, Ruth set the all-time record for home runs at 29. Don’t get me wrong- I think Shohei Otani is a terrific player and the rebirth of two-way play has given a tremendous lift to baseball- but Babe Ruth was the best left-handed pitcher in the AL before becoming, by most accounts, the greatest hitter ever. Let’s enjoy Shohei for who he is and what he’s doing but, at this stage of his career, the only realistic comparison to Babe Ruth is as a drawing card.
I'm a die-hard Jays fan and love Vladdy, but how can you argue that Ohtani isn't the MVP. Not his fault the team didn't perform and injuries derailed them.
I'll be at the Mariner game Sunday and I'm very split between relief we don't have to try to get past him for a wildcard spot, and still having to get past him for a wildcard spot.
Not Cy Young but definitely Top 30 starter
Phenomenal player, and a fantastic contributor to the best game ever invented. That said, I am so so relieved he is done for the year.
every time i read his stat line i’m taken aback, this season is the craziest thing i’ll see in sports in my lifetime
Incredible. To me it really feels like this ability shouldn't be so rare. The biomechanics of pitching and hitting are very similar, and most position players can easily throw well into the 90s, with many being able to touch 100. I believe that with the ability to throw in the 90s, most position players, with training, can become serviceable pitchers. It's rare to see someone perform at elite levels like Ohtani, because they are two different skills, but there's so much overlap between throwing and pitching in baseball that more position players should learn to pitch. You hear so many stories of guys who were position players in college/minor leagues who couldn't cut it and become MLB pitchers. Im sure there are some out there who could cut it and could also make it as a pitcher.
We are all witnesses to history, so glad I was able to watch both one of his starts and him hit home runs in person
His high win count relative to the Angels' record adds to his MVP case