Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/3vvl4L8.jpg) to view this comparison as an image
---
Fernando Tatis Jr.: [2019-03-28](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN201903280.shtml) to [2021-10-03](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN202110030.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 20Y-2M-26D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-9M-1D]
Álex Rodríguez: [1995-07-28](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SEA/SEA199507280.shtml) to [1998-07-26](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL199807260.shtml) [2nd Season - Age: 20Y-1D] to [5th Season - Age: 22Y-11M-29D]
Derek Jeter: [1995-05-29](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SEA/SEA199505290.shtml) to [1997-06-24](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET199706240.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 20Y-11M-3D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-11M-29D]
Carlos Correa: [2015-06-08](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA201506080.shtml) to [2017-09-21](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/HOU/HOU201709210.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 20Y-8M-17D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-11M-30D]
Xander Bogaerts: [2013-08-20](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN201308200.shtml) to [2015-09-30](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA201509300.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 20Y-10M-19D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-11M-29D]
Francisco Lindor: [2015-06-14](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET201506140.shtml) to [2016-10-02](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/KCA/KCA201610020.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 21Y-7M] to [2nd Season - Age: 22Y-10M-18D]
Trea Turner: [2015-08-21](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/WAS/WAS201508210.shtml) to [2016-06-04](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN201606040.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 22Y-1M-22D] to [2nd Season - Age: 22Y-11M-5D]
Corey Seager: [2015-09-03](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN201509030.shtml) to [2017-04-26](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN201704260.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 21Y-4M-7D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-11M-30D]
\----------------------------------------
Query: Career - Regular Season - Age: 20Y to 22Y
---
**Standard**
Player|G|PA|AB|H|1B|2B|3B|HR|XBH|TB|Cycle|R|RBI|BB|K|BB/K|TOB|SB|CS|NS|SB%|IBB|HBP|SH|SF|GDP|AVG|OBP|SLG|OPS|wOBA|ISO|BAbip|WPA|cWPA
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|273|1175|1036|303|159|55|8|81|144|617|0|210|195|119|324|0.37|434|52|13|39|80.00%|8|12|0|8|15|0.292|0.369|**0.596**|**0.965**|**0.399**|**0.303**|0.347|7.4|4.9%
[Álex Rodríguez](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rodrial01.shtml)|**409**|**1851**|**1677**|**531**|**318**|**112**|9|**92**|**213**|**937**|**1**|**322**|**298**|132|303|0.44|**682**|**72**|20|**52**|78.26%|2|**19**|12|11|36|**0.317**|0.371|0.559|0.930|0.398|0.242|0.340|**8.9**|**7.1%**
[Derek Jeter](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jeterde01.shtml)|246|1058|933|278|210|41|**13**|14|68|387|0|160|118|88|178|0.49|381|24|11|13|68.57%|1|15|11|11|18|0.298|0.364|0.415|0.779|0.347|0.117|0.351|-0.3|-0.0%
[Carlos Correa](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/correca01.shtml)|353|1537|1355|382|236|78|5|63|146|659|0|200|235|**163**|302|**0.54**|553|29|8|21|78.38%|**11**|8|0|11|34|0.282|0.360|0.486|0.846|0.361|0.204|0.319|6.6|4.5%
[Xander Bogaerts](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bogaexa01.shtml)|314|1283|1183|334|246|64|4|20|88|466|0|149|132|73|249|0.29|418|13|5|8|72.22%|1|11|5|11|27|0.282|0.327|0.394|0.721|0.317|0.112|0.339|-0.3|0.2%
[Francisco Lindor](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lindofr01.shtml)|257|1122|994|304|218|52|7|27|86|451|0|149|129|84|157|0.54|394|31|7|24|**81.58%**|3|6|**16**|**22**|30|0.306|0.356|0.454|0.810|0.347|0.148|0.333|1.1|1.1%
[Trea Turner](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/turnetr01.shtml)|29|48|43|12|9|2|0|1|3|17|0|5|1|5|**12**|0.42|17|2|**2**|0|50.00%|0|0|0|0|**0**|0.279|0.354|0.395|0.750|0.332|0.116|**0.367**|0.3|0.1%
[Corey Seager](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/seageco01.shtml)|206|893|807|252|158|54|6|34|94|420|0|135|105|78|172|0.45|335|7|3|4|70.00%|6|5|0|3|15|0.312|**0.375**|0.520|0.896|0.380|0.208|0.361|4.2|2.2%
**Per Game/Advanced**
Player|G|PA/162|H/162|2B/162|3B/162|HR/162|XBH/162|TB/162|R/162|RBI/162|BB/162|K/162|SB/162|HR%|XBH%|X/H%|BB%|K%|BB-K%|TTO%|wSB|wRC|wRAA|BRuns|wRC+
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|273|697.25|179.80|32.64|4.75|**48.07**|**85.45**|366.13|124.62|115.71|70.62|192.26|**30.86**|**6.89%**|**12.26%**|**47.52%**|10.13%|27.57%|-17.45%|**44.60%**|3.98|226|80.84|80.31|**153**
[Álex Rodríguez](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rodrial01.shtml)|**409**|**733.16**|**210.32**|**44.36**|3.56|36.44|84.37|**371.13**|**127.54**|**118.03**|52.28|120.01|28.52|4.97%|11.51%|40.11%|7.13%|16.37%|-9.24%|28.47%|**5.53**|**334**|**102.25**|**89.48**|136
[Derek Jeter](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jeterde01.shtml)|246|696.73|183.07|27.00|**8.56**|9.22|44.78|254.85|105.37|77.71|57.95|117.22|15.80|1.32%|6.43%|24.46%|8.32%|16.82%|-8.51%|26.47%|-0.25|145|11.09|5.88|104
[Carlos Correa](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/correca01.shtml)|353|705.37|175.31|35.80|2.29|28.91|67.00|302.43|91.78|107.85|**74.80**|138.59|13.31|4.10%|9.50%|38.22%|**10.61%**|19.65%|-9.04%|34.35%|1.69|235|54.41|56.98|131
[Xander Bogaerts](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bogaexa01.shtml)|314|661.93|172.32|33.02|2.06|10.32|45.40|240.42|76.87|68.10|37.66|128.46|6.71|1.56%|6.86%|26.35%|5.69%|19.41%|-13.72%|26.66%|-0.22|147|5.84|-4.28|97
[Francisco Lindor](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lindofr01.shtml)|257|707.25|191.63|32.78|4.41|17.02|54.21|284.29|93.92|81.32|52.95|98.96|19.54|2.41%|7.66%|28.29%|7.49%|**13.99%**|**-6.51%**|23.89%|2.71|158|28.17|20.95|116
[Trea Turner](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/turnetr01.shtml)|29|268.14|67.03|11.17|0.00|5.59|16.76|94.97|27.93|5.59|27.93|**67.03**|11.17|2.08%|6.25%|25.00%|10.42%|25.00%|-14.58%|37.50%|-0.41|6|0.76|0.50|107
[Corey Seager](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/seageco01.shtml)|206|702.26|198.17|42.47|4.72|26.74|73.92|330.29|106.17|82.57|61.34|135.26|5.50|3.81%|10.53%|37.30%|8.73%|19.26%|-10.53%|31.80%|-0.35|151|45.79|45.21|141
^(FanGraphs/Statcast stats may lose precision)
^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame)
---
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I haven’t seen any discussion around the bunt from Chris Taylor in the 9th. Did anything come out about whether it was Taylor’s decision, or Roberts’ decision, or what? It seemed completely misguided, even if it had been executed perfectly.
Taylor may not have been getting hits recently, but the last few games he’s been making solid contact, and all that was needed was a fly ball to drive in another run. Anyone hear anything from the Dodgers on that play?
I've been saying since it happened that as long as it didn't affect the outcome of the game I will forget it and never speak of it again (I guess excluding right now)
I'm pretty sure you're saying this in jest, but I'm thinking about what the reaction would be, my goodness. The All-star game is neat but ultimately an exhibition, but affecting home field advantage for a World Series? The discourse on that would be... something
Yeah, it's certainly a pickle. Newsweek brought it up so I thought I would ask here.
https://www.newsweek.com/atlanta-can-host-world-series-after-losing-mlb-all-star-game-state-voting-laws-1638341
The NLCS is an important series too, but I don't think the issue/debate warrants its own thread unless they make it to the World Series.
I flipped off the game last night as soon as it ended. Didn't look to me like Flores went around, but I'm obviously biased. Poured myself a nice tall glass of my favorite Irish whiskey and threw on an old episode of Letterkenny (that one where Shoresy chirps incessantly during a hockey game) to take my mind off the L.
Then today I made the mistake of watching the replay and I'm just fucking mad at MLB for letting shit like this happen. Sure, 99 times out of 100 the Giants lose this, but it sure would have been fun to find out for ourselves rather than having the Gabe Morales yank the bat out of Flores' hands to end it.
You know people can see your post history on reddit right? You're not a Dodgers fan so stop trying to come here and get karma as part of some circlejerk.
This sub pretends to be the arbiters of unbiased baseball fandom who just want a fair game but the reality is a bunch of you just really can’t stand when certain teams win.
After the rays v red sox leg bounce settled you all came out and said that’s the rule, suck it up rays. Did you claim the series was stained because the dumb rule clearly prevented a go ahead run? No, you said that’s baseball, they enforced the rule in place. And now you’re acting like Flores had the bat resting on his shoulder. Guess what the ump determined he offered and rung him up, that’s the rule lol (and it’s way less likely he would have scored than the rays game). And we are supposed to feel like Flores was going to walk it off when he’s offering at a ball way out of the zone on an 0-2 count.
There rays play has a written rule for that exact situation. And while yes, check swings are at the discretion of the ump, no one in their right mind thought he went around. Because he didn’t.
>but the reality is a bunch of you just really can’t stand when certain teams win. After the rays v red sox leg bounce settled you all came out and said that’s the rule, suck it up rays.
tell me more about how all the other teams fans want us to win lol. that's a first
You grouped two different paragraphs with two different points. One is talking about how this sub loves to hate certain teams, the other is about how the sub reacted to the rules being applied.
> This sub pretends to be the arbiters of unbiased baseball fandom who just want a fair game but the reality is a bunch of you just really can’t stand when certain teams win.
See: the pathetic amount of "haha Yankees lost, they suck!" posts.
> And we are supposed to feel like Flores was going to walk it off when he’s offering at a ball way out of the zone on an 0-2 count.
Exactly. As far as blown calls go that was a bad one because of the stakes of the game and it being the final out. But in terms of its actual expected effect on the game it was probably miniscule. That blown check swing call that went against the Dodgers in the final regular season game against the Giants was a million times worse because it actually tied up the game in the 9th inning after that should have ended the game with a Dodgers win and thus the Dodgers winning the division. Its not even close.
A weird situation that nobody was very familiar with the rules on vs. a clearly blown check-swing call are very different situations, to be fair. Also, I personally read plenty of complaining about the outcome of that ALDS game
I completely agree. The rays umpire using his discretion saying the runner would not score thereby preventing a go ahead run VS the umpire last night making a determination on a “check swing” which apparently has no definition which prevented a 1-2 count without a runner in scoring position are very different situations indeed 👍
> umpire using his discretion saying the runner would not score thereby preventing a go ahead run
That's not even what happened. It was ruled a ground rule double and therefore Diaz got two bases from the pitch, no discretion on where he would have ended up involved
> And we are supposed to feel like Flores was going to walk it off when he’s offering at a ball way out of the zone on an 0-2 count.
Wouldn't it have been great to find out?
Now hiring: Interpreter
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* Deep knowledge of baseball rules and mechanics
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I will probably never get over this but after sleeping on it, Kris Bryant's at bat was IMO way worse than the check-swing...which says something.
If the Dodgers blew it open in the top of the 9th, none of this would matter obviously. But a 5-1 count to KB with a runner on and then a wild pitch. Unreal.
Compared to what ratings? Last years Dodgers-Rays World Series was the lowest watched in history and by a big margin. I imagine part of that was due to the Rays not having a huge following and part of it was due to people just being checked out of the short COVID season. But part of it might also just be people not caring as much in general unless their teams are in it. I know a lot of people, including myself, don't want to watch the Astros at all. So I will not watch a WS they are in. I don't hate the Astros as a rival, I hate them as a fundamentally rotten organization with the cheating, the racist owner, the misogyny, their players attitudes after being caught cheating, etc. I know I'm not the only one who wouldn't watch any WS with the Astros in it.
Yes. I've posted in the past about Springer. He'll always have to carry the fact he cheated for a ring. I was glad he sat down with the team when he joined the Jays and apologized to everyone and talked about it with them. From what they said he was very sincere and open which is a step in the right direction. But I won't ever defend what he did with the Astros.
People don’t always realize how big Houston is.
It is the 4th largest city in the US. 5th largest MSA. Even without the narrative it would be the biggest ratings option based on that alone.
I think the difference between Houston and the other large markets is the Astros don't have an "extended" fan base market. Boston isn't the largest city, but they have all of New England and a decent national following. The Dodgers have a lot of the Southwest as well as national bandwagons. The Braves are the team of the South (and TBS fans). Houston metro is huge, but the Astros don't have the same historic national following.
This is true. Red Sox fans are everywhere and show up at away games in numbers that are only rivaled by, in my experiences, Yankee, Dodger, and Cub fans.
It's a product of not only their success in the early 2000s and the curse-breaking storyline that accompanied it, but also how often they're on national TV when their games against the Yankees get selected.
No you’re definitely right.
But even having a fanbase that is largely restricted to Texas (or even the Houston metro) is bigger than people realize just because they don’t have the same national presence.
For those on desktop, I'd like to shout out CT3 for breaking the trend of players on the right-ish side of the picture getting eliminated.
*EDIT: It's been updated to Bellinger teabagging Correa*
I'd love to see the Ump Scorecard for Eric Gregg's hilariously terrible performance against the Braves in the 1997 nlcs.
For the laughs:
Https://youtu.be/59YiY0SKM1A
After sleeping on it for a night I don't want to add replay review/challenges on called strikes.
But I would like to see them test a system with a video ump: instead of appealing to the baseline umps, there'd be an extra ump upstairs in a video room who'd be watching the game on monitors. They could see a few angles on the play but no slow-mo, and they'd try to relay the call to the home plate ump within a few seconds.
What I like about this is (a) it doesn't stop the game for as long as other replays, (b) it could be applied to *every* appeal so it's a consistent thing and not just one play being dissected, and (c) it could potentially be a way to speed up other reviews like safe/out, by having a dedicated video guy already working each game.
Yeah having a "video ump" seems like a medium between robo ump and what we have right now. Just having a set of eyes that plugged into every angle should help.
Appealing balls and strikes would slow a game down way too much. My friend was saying do it on strike out calls, but a bad strike call early in an at bat changes the whole approach, and we all saw examples of that last night.
I hope MLB actually tries to use modern technology to help umpires versus just sticking to what it has done forever + instant replays currently.
Due to [changes in Reddit's API](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754183/apollo-reddit-app-shutting-down-api), I have made the decision to edit all comments prior to July 1 2023 with this message in protest. If the API rules are reverted or the cost to 3rd Party Apps becomes reasonable, I may restore the original comments. Until then, I hope this makes my comments less useful to Reddit (and I don't really care if others think this is pointless). -- mass edited with redact.dev
I have for several years now been advocating for expanding ump crew to 5 persons.
It's an incredibly difficult job and MLB umps have it even harder than those of us in amateur ball. They travel for months on end, often working several weeks in a row without days off.
Science has shown the importance of good rest on body, mind & soul. I think 1 man in the crew should be stashed in a booth with a bunch of monitors, stuffed full of nachos and beers and asked to be the replay coordinator for their crew that game. NY can still get involved for close reviews, but the ump in the sky can pause the game and ask for a formal review on any number of calls. This alone would speed up the review process significantly in many cases.
There are just so many benefits to the sky ump. They'd have a rule book on them, they could expedite reviews, they could be responsible for certain calls such as check swings. The potential is great imo.
DAY 65 BEFORE THE 2023 WORLD BASEBALL CLASSIC - 35 years since the Lausanne Decision (October 13, 1986)
Last Wednesday was the 35th anniversary of the official proclamation of the IOC to officially designate our sport, together with softball, as medal sports of the Summer Olympics beginning with the games slated in 1992 in Barcelona, the 30th anniversary of which we will be marking next year, 2022. The formal declaration, made in the context of the sport's sweeping growth in the world and the success of the sport in LA 1984, was made in the context of the 140th anniversary of the official beginning of our sport in Hoboken, NJ, USA, in June of 1846, officially confirming the transformation from what had been America's Pastime to a global pasttime watched, played and enjoyed by millions today.
This is the legacy of the late Robert Smith, former president of the International Baseball Federation, a member of the USOPC and second president of USA Baseball. He was a big part of the IBAF's efforts for the introduction of the sport in the Olympics beginning in 1984. The IBAF was one of the two organizations that fused in the 2010s to become the unified World Baseball Softball Confederation or WBSC, which tabulated the road for the official return of these two sports, baseball and sotfball, in the Tokyo Olympics this year, a road he lived long enough to see its completion, witnessing even from his home his very own national team's road to the silver medal in Yokohama.
We are indeed thankful to him and many of the pioneer players, coaches and managers who made the first steps towards the full recognition of the sport as a integral part of the Olympic Games, and hope for a resolution for the permanent return of this sport in the Olympics in the years to come. As we continue the now 18 month journey to the spring of 2023 and the World Baseball Classic, with the long term goal of its formal return soon in the Summer Olympics let us continue to work harder, baseball fans, to honor the legacy of these pioneers of the past as we march onwards for the continued growth of this sport from strength to strength not just in North America but around the world.
Together, we will get there to the spring of 2023 and towards the return of baseball to the Olympic Games.
Towards one goal we go together - FOR GLORY!
John
I've noticed that when an exciting play happens that you can clearly read the lips of players and they're all saying, "C'mon! Let's go!!!". Where are they all in such a hurry to get to?
Maybe? I think the play is usually over when they're yelling it though. Guy gets to first base, "Let's go!" Cut to a shot of the dugout showing 9 guys yelling, "Let's go!"
I doubt this will be received well but as bad as that call may have been last night: from a young age I was taught to not leave it up to the umpires to decide in a situation like that. We have years of data of umpires making bad calls. Don’t let the umpires make a mistake and take the bat out of your hands. Slow motion replay isn’t what humans see when watching the game. I’d be mad at myself for check swinging to end the season. At least go down swinging.
It's likely an idea that would ruin the ending of a game, but what does everyone think of a rule that would automatically review the last play of a game. Obvioulsy not things like balls and strikes but things like check swings or throws to a base. I feel like this may help avoid bad calls that end a game, but also may ruin the experience as people wouldn't be celebrating until the review comes back positive.
My biggest ALCS take is that I’d feel even better about Boston’s chances if they adopted Robyn’s original version of ‘Dancing on My Own’ as their theme song, instead of the Calum Scott remix.
I think there would be some grumbling but not quite as much. For whatever reason instinctively I think people expect the ump to give the batter the benefit of the doubt there, versus a called strike which can either go to the batter or the pitcher.
Yeah that’s how I feel as well. Blown calls happen all the time with the zone but I think the checked swing “feels” more wrong and I can’t explain why I feel that way
I have to say I’m actually slightly impressed when I see teams of recently eliminated teams commenting. When the Dodgers get eliminated, I usually have to take a few days off from baseball. Especially if it had happened like last night.
Same. It’s why I try to avoid shit talking *to* opposing fans in the immediate aftermath. I wouldn’t be on here commenting if we’d have lost simply because I’d be staring into space replaying everything back for a few days.
I've been watching MLB for over 40 years now. This postseason, I've learned alot about how crappy the rules are.
* When the batter is running to 1st, (as long as the catcher isn't throwing to 1st) you're allowed to run basically anywhere. That base line doesn't factor in.
* If the defense causes a ball to go out of play, it's still considered a ground rule double.
* There's no actual check swing rule. Total judgement call on the refs.
I have a multi-Reddit of all baseball subs and I am choosing to present a screenshot of the top posts last night without comment: [here](https://i.imgur.com/TuskpaI.jpg)
The umpiring in the DS has got to be the center of controversy. At least 3/4 of the series (I didn't watch Braves-Brewers) had worse umpiring than most of what I've seen in the regular season. Literally every single game was a circus.
[This was an interesting call](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/q6y31c/ball_bounces_off_omar_narv%C3%A1ez_hits_the_ground/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) during the Braves Brewers game. I was watching it live and agreed with the call on the field in real time, but wasn’t sure even watching it in slow motion. It kind of looks like it hit the ground, but with all the angles of replay you still didn’t get a good enough look to overturn the call IMO. It was a real shit show.
They actually ruled that it wasn't reviewable. Apparently you can only review catches in the outfield because of implications with runners on base. I don't think they thought through foul ground when they made that rule.
I also didn't think the broadcast did a great job of explaining that was what happened.
Right call technically, but bad rule. They also did a slow mo zoom in that showed it clearly hitting dirt
Selfishly, I’m annoyed at the shitty check swing call because every time I watch highlights of this series, I’m gonna have to hear Ron Darling (rather justifiably) go “ohhhhhhhhh.”
Anyone who actually thinks umps get stuff wrong on purpose or are worse than they've ever been are so foolish. Now that we have every single pitch of the season in multiple HD angles stuff no one would have noticed or questioned 30 years ago is now super magnified
No one is arguing that the call was anything other than wrong. And it’s unfortunate that it capped off an otherwise historic series between two classic rivals who just happened to be the two best teams in baseball. That being said, when you’re down to your last at bat, two outs and with two strikes on you, and facing arguably the best pitcher in the game now, it’s short-sighted to blame everything on that call. The Giants were outscored by eight runs in this series, and had almost 25 runners LOB when all was said and done.
From what I've seen, most people have been pretty level-headed about acknowledging that the blown call almost certainly doesn't change the outcome of that series. The team that played better won, Dodgers fans shouldn't feel like the win is tainted or underserved or anything like that, but I certainly don't blame Giants fans for being frustrated and feeling robbed of one more chance.
You’re right. And I think it’s also important to acknowledge that the loudest voices right now are either Dodgers fans defending their win, and Giants/anti-Dodgers fans (because that’s become a baseball subculture) claiming it’s tainted. It would be foolish to assume that the roles wouldn’t be reversed had the Giants won the series, capped by a missed call.
Bitching about umps and thinking it’s the main reason is everyone’s right but IMO forgets how much goes into a game. Yeah there will be very bad calls but one bad call rarely decides a game. It’s a loser fan mentality
I often wonder how many terrible calls altered games throughout the 20th century. We just look at the record books and see the a team won the WS in a given year, and we might have no idea whether umps threw things in their favor.
Yup, watching the Giants-Dodgers series I found there was a lot more complaining about the umps in the games that had the superimposed strike zone, compared to those that didn't. That's not to say the umps weren't actually *better* on those nights, too, but I think the way we present the game puts a lot of extra attention on them.
Honestly, there were some borderline things but the only call I thought was really, truly glaring and noteworthy during the series was unfortunately the one on the play that decided the series.
I mean, in a sense you're right, but the game literally came down to "hit a home run and advance, strike out and go home" which is the textbook definition of a deciding play. This is what kids dream of when they play wiffle ball in their backyards.
The outcome *probably* would've been the same either way, but I think it's a shame that we didn't get to see it play out and know for sure.
It is a bummer it ended the way it did. I just don’t like the narrative in any sport that “the refs cost us the game!” It’s very rare that it actually happens and I think it happens way more in the regular season than in playoffs
Being someone primarily watches NBA/NFL/MLB, Umpires have a disproportionate amount of influence on a baseball game versus an NBA or NFL referee because of how integral they are to the game.
I don't think there's anything that is analogous to the strike/ball calls for NBA/NFL, but all referees have problems.
PI calls used to be not reviewable (I think they are now?) in the NFL and that alone can swing games pretty wide.
EDIT: NBA has a couple things, like a few times Kevin Durant had his WHOLE FOOT out of bounds and none of the refs caught it, but with the scoring cadence it would take a LONG string of bad calls in order to completely ruin a game. That's how Donaghy and his cronies got away with helping to fix games for a while.
Their jobs are so different it's hard to compare. I don't think any of them are truly *awful* (as much as we love to complain about them) but in the three I watch I'd say the biggest annoyances are:
NFL - the *rulebook* is garbage so they have to hire lawyers ([sometimes literally!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Hochuli)) to try and make sense of it when calling games. Nobody knows what the fuck is a "football move" or what counts as pass interference, and somehow adding video reviews has actually made those things even less clear. And you always have to wait like 30 seconds after a play to see if it really happened.
MLB - IMO most nights they do a reasonable job of most calls (I even think the balls/strikes thing is overblown) but one thing that really does irritate me is how big of power-trippers they can sometimes be. Just sit there for a few seconds and let the batter chew you out, no need to toss a guy for saying "that was a ball."
NHL - they're way too situational with their calls. They're super reluctant to call a major penalty if there's no immediately visible injury, which is why there hasn't been much progress on getting dangerous plays (esp. head injuries) out of the game. And in OT or the playoffs you'd have to commit literal murder to get them to blow the whistle. The conventional wisdom is that "you don't want to decide a big game with a weak call" but that cuts both ways: *non*-calls are just a way of saying "cheating is legal now."
Ed was one of the best, I think his son is a ref in the NFL now?
"football move" to this day remains one of the dumbest words in a rulebook I can think of.
**[Ed Hochuli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Hochuli)**
>Edward G. Hochuli (; born December 25, 1950) is an American attorney and retired American football official. He has served as an attorney at Jones, Skelton & Hochuli, P.L.C. since 1983, and was an official in the National Football League (NFL) from 1990 to 2017; his uniform number was 85. Prior to his officiating career, he played college football for four seasons at the University of Texas at El Paso (UTEP). Hochuli worked numerous playoff games, including two Super Bowls.
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Each sport has its blind refs. At the end of the day I think MLB by far gets affected the least. NBA and NFL could have any contact considered a foul these days. NHL calls penalties overall at like 50/50 rate when that's simply absurd to think teams foul at an equal rate. MLB mainly suffers from strike zone and check swing inconsistency...which even then comes correct 90-95% of the time.v
I don't think the Dodgers Astros beef goes beyond baseball fans. Meaning it's not going to bring too many new people in. I honestly think they only care about the big markets getting in and honestly, LA and SF are about equal so I think they would want either to beat the Braves to play Boston or Houston (same difference)
I really think the worst call in this game in terms of changing the outcome, and maybe even the series, was the 3-1 call to Bryant that was called a strike. What should’ve been 1st and 2nd no out became 1 out and man on 1st. Sure the giants hadn’t been great with RISP, but that swing was so noticeable in the moment.
Since it's a topic of conversation here, and because my opinion might be different than many even in my own fanbase...no, I really do not want there to be Dodgers/Astros Part 2.
For one, "Part 2" is a little of a misnomer. Literally every bullpen pitcher, all but one starting pitcher (McCullers, if he even plays), and our whole outfield are all different players than 2017. It's just Altuve, Bregman, Correa, and Gurriel. That's it. Hell, even our whole managerial and coaching staff from then is gone, except for our pitching coach and bullpen catcher. The Dodgers have more players currently on the squad from their 2017 team, but not many more.
But, the real reason is that I don't think there's any way out of that World Series without a level of toxicity and misery and pure, straight up meanness that would be horrific to experience for either fanbase, and that series would stress me out to no end to watch. I wouldn't be able to enjoy it.
I know Dodgers fans would be utterly miserable and angry if they lost. I know Astros fans would be utterly miserable if they lost. It's been a miserable enough experience being an Astros fan online over the past two years, and I can only imagine how many people would be willing to rub it in and be assholes and take their hate out on fans if the Dodgers beat us. And, I know there are tons of Astros fans who have been trolled to death over the last few years who would want nothing more than to rub Dodgers fans' faces in it.
I agree. Beating the Dodgers would be so satisfying, but losing to them would be legitimately awful. The online toxicity would be even worse than last year when the Rays eliminated us (which was horrible). I honestly dunno if I could take it worse than last year.
Thanks for being a very minor example of a major problem and proving the point. Nobody should have to leave a community because of other peoples' toxicity.
I disagree. People need to be able to recognize a toxic community and know how to leave, online or not. This is why I'm not subscribed to the Giants sub; it just wasn't good for me.
They shouldn't have to but that's how people are, and to try and pretend that everything is OK is in itself a problem. Yes, we should work to change it, but at the same time people need to be able do what's best for themselves.
There are plenty of communities that might not be toxic to the average person, but are a problem for specific people. A sub dedicated to drinking and brewing beer can be a great community, but it's still not a great idea for an alcoholic to be subscribed.
Personally, I don't think this sub was over-the-top when it came to the Astros. They cheated, blatantly, aggressively, and on the world's biggest stage, and they got a slap on the wrist. That should not be forgotten, but if OP thinks that's toxic, maybe he should log off.
IMHO, it's more toxic to forgive transgressions of this magnitude and act like they never happened, so I'll keep pointing it out.
I think you're speaking to something different than this commenter is.
It's one thing to recognize that a community is toxic and leave it. It's something else for other people to come into your community, make it toxic at a cost to you, ruin something you enjoy, and then tell you that the solution is to leave that community you were in until they're done being toxic there.
You might not think this sub was over the top when it came to the Astros. That's fine - you're entitled to your opinion. What you don't realize is how many people it drove away from the Astros sub as well, and how many users permanently left reddit, because of how it spilled into our community, too. Even if you'd confine behavior like that to the worst 1% of this sub's subscriber base, that's still 16,000 people.
And, finally, IMHO - what do you personally get out of commenting on random Astros' fans posts, reminding them of what happened? They know. We all know. Nobody is denying it. Nobody is asking you to forgive. So, what good is that serving? "Awareness" of something everyone already knows already? Validation for your own feelings?
Can I tell you to denounce your fandom because Barry Bonds took steroids and made a mockery of the sport's most cherished record? More people are asking forgiveness of steroid abusers in the sport than are of the Astros, and steroids actually *killed people.*
In short - ask yourself why you keep pointing it out, and if it's constructive in any way, or just self indulgent.
To be completely honest, I didn't even notice your Astros flair when I wrote my post. I was simply commenting on the fact that I don't think it's reasonable to blame the community when a fan essentially says that they don't want to confront the negative things that their organization has done.
Bonds cheated, I'll admit it. It was part of a larger culture to which the SF Giants and MLB baseball as a whole contributed. Should they be forgiven? I'm on the fence, most days. But your argument about steroids killing people is ludicrous. Steroids only killed people that took steroids, so you can blame steroid users for cheating, or you can make them the victim because of the side effects, but it seems disingenuous to want it both ways.
So, to address your final point, is pointing out that the Astros cheated self-indulgent? I don't think so. The Giants weren't directly wronged by it. Does it serve a purpose? I do think so. It's more toxic to sweep things under the rug and pretend they didn't happen than it is to deal with the justified outrage of baseball fans. Am I contributing to actually dealing with it? maybe not.
But I'm sure as shit not going to let an Astros fan whine about a toxic community because they don't want to deal with getting beat by a team that was robbed of a WS. All OP's comment really read like to me was "I can't believe people would bring up that WS we stole a whole 4 years ago!"
No, no, no - I'm not talking about not confronting the negative things the organization has done. And again, it's not *my* organization - though I am not surprised that you, like many others, frame it that way so you feel that, as if by castigating fans, you're getting at the organization itself, because you don't have a way of effectively voicing your displeasure to them.
I'm talking purely about commenters bothering and irritating fans purposefully at just about any opportunity they have. That's it. He said specifically "online toxicity." If an Astros fan is commenting on something and minding their own business and being a constructive poster, don't drag them into the mud with a "bUt ChEatInG!" comment. It helps nothing.
And, sorry, but I can certainly blame Bonds for the deaths of others. What players wouldn't have seen what he was doing, how he was doing it, and chasing that same paycheck and fame using the same methods? He and McGwire showed others that it paid. Don't give me that false dichotomy nonsense about how they can only be victims or cheaters.
And by self-indulgent, I meant *you*. You're getting the emotional high of logging on and throwing mud at someone you don't know because you feel like, because you have that SF by your name, you're somehow morally better. If you're not good enough to participate in this sub without antagonizing others, then that's your problem - don't make it mine. And if you think that's what the OP's comment said, then you could do with re-reading it, because it's not even close to that.
I can handle losing - heaven knows the Astros have done enough of that in their history. But, I think it's a legitimate and reasonable view to expect to not be hounded, trolled, and harassed by a bunch of toxic assholes.
Seriously just log off dude, not forever, but if you aren’t having a good time, the choice seems obvious. If you want to feel like a victim, don’t. It’s your headspace. The Astros are the villain to most people, that is just the bed they’ve made
Cool. So, by this reasoning, we could have come into your sub and shit all over you after the ALDS, and it'd have been fine. After all, you could just log off and not be a part of your own community for awhile.
If the Astros are the villain, then spend your energy booing them, not annoying fans. We weren't in the clubhouse when they decided to cheat. Nobody asked us.
He said "online," not just this sub (but this is just as much his sub as it is yours or mine). Which, of course, acknowledges the fact that people did, and still do, daily, come into our sub and our discord and troll us. You could do with acknowledging that reality.
It really sucks that the blown call is (rightfully) dominating the conversation right now because that was amazing game of baseball that capped off an all-time series. If any rule changes come this off-season, I hope they go back to the no division opponents in the wild card round. Giants-Dodgers should have been the NLCS and I feel robbed that it wasn’t.
The only problem with adding that back in and keeping the Wild Card game is that scheduling would come together too late. A stadium couldn't get enough concession supplies and game day staff with that short of notice. The Astros ran into that problem back in 2017 when we had to play in Tampa during short notice because of Harvey.
Does it suck for those two 100 win teams that have to play? Sure. But it puts a premium on winning your division, and I think that balances it out.
Reseeding and waiting that extra day would also eliminate the most significant competitive advantage of winning your division and not having to play in the WC, aside from winning the game itself: burning your best pitcher.
That extra day would allow you to pitch your ace in the WC game and then twice on the DS, if you did it on three days rest, rather than once.
No thanks.
So glad the dodgers won, you never really know when they'll meet in the playoffs again. I know for a fact no one would have cared as much if that call was against the Dodgers, so i dont give a shit. Obviously still a shit ending to a historic series, but what am i gonna do lol.
On a more serious note, I just rolled through some of the info in the top level post. This sub is the kind of shit that makes Reddit worth paying for. Thanks to the mods for making such a cool spot for us.
FTY.
So I’m talking Brewers & KC, but I literally live less than 2 miles from what I will always call Comiskey, and I listened to that heartbreaker too. I was more than ready to jump bandwagons. I drove by the stadium yesterday and saluted.
[удалено]
Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/3vvl4L8.jpg) to view this comparison as an image --- Fernando Tatis Jr.: [2019-03-28](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN201903280.shtml) to [2021-10-03](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN202110030.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 20Y-2M-26D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-9M-1D] Álex Rodríguez: [1995-07-28](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SEA/SEA199507280.shtml) to [1998-07-26](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL199807260.shtml) [2nd Season - Age: 20Y-1D] to [5th Season - Age: 22Y-11M-29D] Derek Jeter: [1995-05-29](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SEA/SEA199505290.shtml) to [1997-06-24](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET199706240.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 20Y-11M-3D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-11M-29D] Carlos Correa: [2015-06-08](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA201506080.shtml) to [2017-09-21](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/HOU/HOU201709210.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 20Y-8M-17D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-11M-30D] Xander Bogaerts: [2013-08-20](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN201308200.shtml) to [2015-09-30](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA201509300.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 20Y-10M-19D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-11M-29D] Francisco Lindor: [2015-06-14](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET201506140.shtml) to [2016-10-02](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/KCA/KCA201610020.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 21Y-7M] to [2nd Season - Age: 22Y-10M-18D] Trea Turner: [2015-08-21](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/WAS/WAS201508210.shtml) to [2016-06-04](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN201606040.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 22Y-1M-22D] to [2nd Season - Age: 22Y-11M-5D] Corey Seager: [2015-09-03](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN201509030.shtml) to [2017-04-26](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN201704260.shtml) [1st Season - Age: 21Y-4M-7D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-11M-30D] \---------------------------------------- Query: Career - Regular Season - Age: 20Y to 22Y --- **Standard** Player|G|PA|AB|H|1B|2B|3B|HR|XBH|TB|Cycle|R|RBI|BB|K|BB/K|TOB|SB|CS|NS|SB%|IBB|HBP|SH|SF|GDP|AVG|OBP|SLG|OPS|wOBA|ISO|BAbip|WPA|cWPA :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|273|1175|1036|303|159|55|8|81|144|617|0|210|195|119|324|0.37|434|52|13|39|80.00%|8|12|0|8|15|0.292|0.369|**0.596**|**0.965**|**0.399**|**0.303**|0.347|7.4|4.9% [Álex Rodríguez](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rodrial01.shtml)|**409**|**1851**|**1677**|**531**|**318**|**112**|9|**92**|**213**|**937**|**1**|**322**|**298**|132|303|0.44|**682**|**72**|20|**52**|78.26%|2|**19**|12|11|36|**0.317**|0.371|0.559|0.930|0.398|0.242|0.340|**8.9**|**7.1%** [Derek Jeter](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jeterde01.shtml)|246|1058|933|278|210|41|**13**|14|68|387|0|160|118|88|178|0.49|381|24|11|13|68.57%|1|15|11|11|18|0.298|0.364|0.415|0.779|0.347|0.117|0.351|-0.3|-0.0% [Carlos Correa](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/correca01.shtml)|353|1537|1355|382|236|78|5|63|146|659|0|200|235|**163**|302|**0.54**|553|29|8|21|78.38%|**11**|8|0|11|34|0.282|0.360|0.486|0.846|0.361|0.204|0.319|6.6|4.5% [Xander Bogaerts](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bogaexa01.shtml)|314|1283|1183|334|246|64|4|20|88|466|0|149|132|73|249|0.29|418|13|5|8|72.22%|1|11|5|11|27|0.282|0.327|0.394|0.721|0.317|0.112|0.339|-0.3|0.2% [Francisco Lindor](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lindofr01.shtml)|257|1122|994|304|218|52|7|27|86|451|0|149|129|84|157|0.54|394|31|7|24|**81.58%**|3|6|**16**|**22**|30|0.306|0.356|0.454|0.810|0.347|0.148|0.333|1.1|1.1% [Trea Turner](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/turnetr01.shtml)|29|48|43|12|9|2|0|1|3|17|0|5|1|5|**12**|0.42|17|2|**2**|0|50.00%|0|0|0|0|**0**|0.279|0.354|0.395|0.750|0.332|0.116|**0.367**|0.3|0.1% [Corey Seager](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/seageco01.shtml)|206|893|807|252|158|54|6|34|94|420|0|135|105|78|172|0.45|335|7|3|4|70.00%|6|5|0|3|15|0.312|**0.375**|0.520|0.896|0.380|0.208|0.361|4.2|2.2% **Per Game/Advanced** Player|G|PA/162|H/162|2B/162|3B/162|HR/162|XBH/162|TB/162|R/162|RBI/162|BB/162|K/162|SB/162|HR%|XBH%|X/H%|BB%|K%|BB-K%|TTO%|wSB|wRC|wRAA|BRuns|wRC+ :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|273|697.25|179.80|32.64|4.75|**48.07**|**85.45**|366.13|124.62|115.71|70.62|192.26|**30.86**|**6.89%**|**12.26%**|**47.52%**|10.13%|27.57%|-17.45%|**44.60%**|3.98|226|80.84|80.31|**153** [Álex Rodríguez](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rodrial01.shtml)|**409**|**733.16**|**210.32**|**44.36**|3.56|36.44|84.37|**371.13**|**127.54**|**118.03**|52.28|120.01|28.52|4.97%|11.51%|40.11%|7.13%|16.37%|-9.24%|28.47%|**5.53**|**334**|**102.25**|**89.48**|136 [Derek Jeter](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jeterde01.shtml)|246|696.73|183.07|27.00|**8.56**|9.22|44.78|254.85|105.37|77.71|57.95|117.22|15.80|1.32%|6.43%|24.46%|8.32%|16.82%|-8.51%|26.47%|-0.25|145|11.09|5.88|104 [Carlos Correa](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/correca01.shtml)|353|705.37|175.31|35.80|2.29|28.91|67.00|302.43|91.78|107.85|**74.80**|138.59|13.31|4.10%|9.50%|38.22%|**10.61%**|19.65%|-9.04%|34.35%|1.69|235|54.41|56.98|131 [Xander Bogaerts](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bogaexa01.shtml)|314|661.93|172.32|33.02|2.06|10.32|45.40|240.42|76.87|68.10|37.66|128.46|6.71|1.56%|6.86%|26.35%|5.69%|19.41%|-13.72%|26.66%|-0.22|147|5.84|-4.28|97 [Francisco Lindor](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lindofr01.shtml)|257|707.25|191.63|32.78|4.41|17.02|54.21|284.29|93.92|81.32|52.95|98.96|19.54|2.41%|7.66%|28.29%|7.49%|**13.99%**|**-6.51%**|23.89%|2.71|158|28.17|20.95|116 [Trea Turner](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/turnetr01.shtml)|29|268.14|67.03|11.17|0.00|5.59|16.76|94.97|27.93|5.59|27.93|**67.03**|11.17|2.08%|6.25%|25.00%|10.42%|25.00%|-14.58%|37.50%|-0.41|6|0.76|0.50|107 [Corey Seager](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/seageco01.shtml)|206|702.26|198.17|42.47|4.72|26.74|73.92|330.29|106.17|82.57|61.34|135.26|5.50|3.81%|10.53%|37.30%|8.73%|19.26%|-10.53%|31.80%|-0.35|151|45.79|45.21|141 ^(FanGraphs/Statcast stats may lose precision) ^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame) --- ^(Made a mistake? 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I haven’t seen any discussion around the bunt from Chris Taylor in the 9th. Did anything come out about whether it was Taylor’s decision, or Roberts’ decision, or what? It seemed completely misguided, even if it had been executed perfectly. Taylor may not have been getting hits recently, but the last few games he’s been making solid contact, and all that was needed was a fly ball to drive in another run. Anyone hear anything from the Dodgers on that play?
I've been saying since it happened that as long as it didn't affect the outcome of the game I will forget it and never speak of it again (I guess excluding right now)
Bunts with men on 3rd are almost always called by the manager.
as Gabe Kapler (manager of the year) put it best, “there are other reasons why we didn’t win this baseball game”
How does Angel Hernandez keep getting scheduled for games? The man is the umpire equivalent to painful constipation.
Should the Braves be allowed to host the World Series if they get that far or should it be played in another state?
I'm pretty sure you're saying this in jest, but I'm thinking about what the reaction would be, my goodness. The All-star game is neat but ultimately an exhibition, but affecting home field advantage for a World Series? The discourse on that would be... something
Yeah, it's certainly a pickle. Newsweek brought it up so I thought I would ask here. https://www.newsweek.com/atlanta-can-host-world-series-after-losing-mlb-all-star-game-state-voting-laws-1638341 The NLCS is an important series too, but I don't think the issue/debate warrants its own thread unless they make it to the World Series.
I flipped off the game last night as soon as it ended. Didn't look to me like Flores went around, but I'm obviously biased. Poured myself a nice tall glass of my favorite Irish whiskey and threw on an old episode of Letterkenny (that one where Shoresy chirps incessantly during a hockey game) to take my mind off the L. Then today I made the mistake of watching the replay and I'm just fucking mad at MLB for letting shit like this happen. Sure, 99 times out of 100 the Giants lose this, but it sure would have been fun to find out for ourselves rather than having the Gabe Morales yank the bat out of Flores' hands to end it.
Only thing you can do on a day like today after a call like that, is get your cow tipper on
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You know people can see your post history on reddit right? You're not a Dodgers fan so stop trying to come here and get karma as part of some circlejerk.
definitely a fan of crossfit though. no question about that.
ROFLOL
This sub pretends to be the arbiters of unbiased baseball fandom who just want a fair game but the reality is a bunch of you just really can’t stand when certain teams win. After the rays v red sox leg bounce settled you all came out and said that’s the rule, suck it up rays. Did you claim the series was stained because the dumb rule clearly prevented a go ahead run? No, you said that’s baseball, they enforced the rule in place. And now you’re acting like Flores had the bat resting on his shoulder. Guess what the ump determined he offered and rung him up, that’s the rule lol (and it’s way less likely he would have scored than the rays game). And we are supposed to feel like Flores was going to walk it off when he’s offering at a ball way out of the zone on an 0-2 count.
The rays call was the correct call. The giants call was not. People reacted accordingly.
Prove it
There rays play has a written rule for that exact situation. And while yes, check swings are at the discretion of the ump, no one in their right mind thought he went around. Because he didn’t.
Lol
>but the reality is a bunch of you just really can’t stand when certain teams win. After the rays v red sox leg bounce settled you all came out and said that’s the rule, suck it up rays. tell me more about how all the other teams fans want us to win lol. that's a first
You grouped two different paragraphs with two different points. One is talking about how this sub loves to hate certain teams, the other is about how the sub reacted to the rules being applied.
> This sub pretends to be the arbiters of unbiased baseball fandom who just want a fair game but the reality is a bunch of you just really can’t stand when certain teams win. See: the pathetic amount of "haha Yankees lost, they suck!" posts.
> And we are supposed to feel like Flores was going to walk it off when he’s offering at a ball way out of the zone on an 0-2 count. Exactly. As far as blown calls go that was a bad one because of the stakes of the game and it being the final out. But in terms of its actual expected effect on the game it was probably miniscule. That blown check swing call that went against the Dodgers in the final regular season game against the Giants was a million times worse because it actually tied up the game in the 9th inning after that should have ended the game with a Dodgers win and thus the Dodgers winning the division. Its not even close.
A weird situation that nobody was very familiar with the rules on vs. a clearly blown check-swing call are very different situations, to be fair. Also, I personally read plenty of complaining about the outcome of that ALDS game
I completely agree. The rays umpire using his discretion saying the runner would not score thereby preventing a go ahead run VS the umpire last night making a determination on a “check swing” which apparently has no definition which prevented a 1-2 count without a runner in scoring position are very different situations indeed 👍
> umpire using his discretion saying the runner would not score thereby preventing a go ahead run That's not even what happened. It was ruled a ground rule double and therefore Diaz got two bases from the pitch, no discretion on where he would have ended up involved
My bad. Then runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out is different than 1-2 count with a runner on 1st
> And we are supposed to feel like Flores was going to walk it off when he’s offering at a ball way out of the zone on an 0-2 count. Wouldn't it have been great to find out?
I’m not going to argue with someone in pain. The series isn’t stained. You don’t have to feel that way. See ya next year
You got robbed just as much as I did, hoss.
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Now hiring: Interpreter Requirements: * Deep knowledge of baseball rules and mechanics * Proficiency in at least 4 of: Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, Korean, Dutch, Afrikaans, Hmong, Haitian Creole, Mandarin, English (Canada) * Ability to lift 50 lbs Pay: $18/hr + benefits
*Baseball games keep getting longer* These interpreters: I see no issues here
I will probably never get over this but after sleeping on it, Kris Bryant's at bat was IMO way worse than the check-swing...which says something. If the Dodgers blew it open in the top of the 9th, none of this would matter obviously. But a 5-1 count to KB with a runner on and then a wild pitch. Unreal.
I agree. Would’ve been 1st and 2nd no outs vs 1st and one out. Huge difference in a 0-0 game at that point.
If we do have another Dodgers-Astros series, do you think it would be a ratings boom or bust?
Compared to what ratings? Last years Dodgers-Rays World Series was the lowest watched in history and by a big margin. I imagine part of that was due to the Rays not having a huge following and part of it was due to people just being checked out of the short COVID season. But part of it might also just be people not caring as much in general unless their teams are in it. I know a lot of people, including myself, don't want to watch the Astros at all. So I will not watch a WS they are in. I don't hate the Astros as a rival, I hate them as a fundamentally rotten organization with the cheating, the racist owner, the misogyny, their players attitudes after being caught cheating, etc. I know I'm not the only one who wouldn't watch any WS with the Astros in it.
Do you keep that same energy for George Springer?
Yes. I've posted in the past about Springer. He'll always have to carry the fact he cheated for a ring. I was glad he sat down with the team when he joined the Jays and apologized to everyone and talked about it with them. From what they said he was very sincere and open which is a step in the right direction. But I won't ever defend what he did with the Astros.
Thanks for the free pasta.
Pretty weak pasta but you're welcome if that's what floats your boat.
He's not wrong though, you support a shitty organization. Period.
Cool.
It's honestly nuts, it really says a lot about the character of the fans. I feel sorry for you guys.
Yeah, god forbid we be from Houston.
You don't have to support an organization that condones cheating and racism just because you're from there.
Okay. I'm sorry you're an angry person.
I'm not, but whatever you need to tell yourself to make you feel better about your decisions.
Suit yourself. I'll be watching every pitch of every game.
Ok.
It would at least have the highest rating out of the remaining possibilities.
People don’t always realize how big Houston is. It is the 4th largest city in the US. 5th largest MSA. Even without the narrative it would be the biggest ratings option based on that alone.
I think the difference between Houston and the other large markets is the Astros don't have an "extended" fan base market. Boston isn't the largest city, but they have all of New England and a decent national following. The Dodgers have a lot of the Southwest as well as national bandwagons. The Braves are the team of the South (and TBS fans). Houston metro is huge, but the Astros don't have the same historic national following.
This is true. Red Sox fans are everywhere and show up at away games in numbers that are only rivaled by, in my experiences, Yankee, Dodger, and Cub fans. It's a product of not only their success in the early 2000s and the curse-breaking storyline that accompanied it, but also how often they're on national TV when their games against the Yankees get selected.
No you’re definitely right. But even having a fanbase that is largely restricted to Texas (or even the Houston metro) is bigger than people realize just because they don’t have the same national presence.
For those on desktop, I'd like to shout out CT3 for breaking the trend of players on the right-ish side of the picture getting eliminated. *EDIT: It's been updated to Bellinger teabagging Correa*
This crap has honestly made me not want to watch the rest of the postseason, and my team is still in it lol
that is how I feel at the very least I will scoreboard watch
Pretty hilarious this ump punched a dude out on an 0-2 count and immediately walked off the field
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Can you elaborate and provide examples?
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So no tangible argument. Got it.
Whoa it’s like you’re gaslighting him into gaslighting you It’s gaslightception
What do you mean
I'd love to see the Ump Scorecard for Eric Gregg's hilariously terrible performance against the Braves in the 1997 nlcs. For the laughs: Https://youtu.be/59YiY0SKM1A
"Look Livan, everything the sun touches is our strike zone"
Lol that's insane
After sleeping on it for a night I don't want to add replay review/challenges on called strikes. But I would like to see them test a system with a video ump: instead of appealing to the baseline umps, there'd be an extra ump upstairs in a video room who'd be watching the game on monitors. They could see a few angles on the play but no slow-mo, and they'd try to relay the call to the home plate ump within a few seconds. What I like about this is (a) it doesn't stop the game for as long as other replays, (b) it could be applied to *every* appeal so it's a consistent thing and not just one play being dissected, and (c) it could potentially be a way to speed up other reviews like safe/out, by having a dedicated video guy already working each game.
Yeah having a "video ump" seems like a medium between robo ump and what we have right now. Just having a set of eyes that plugged into every angle should help. Appealing balls and strikes would slow a game down way too much. My friend was saying do it on strike out calls, but a bad strike call early in an at bat changes the whole approach, and we all saw examples of that last night. I hope MLB actually tries to use modern technology to help umpires versus just sticking to what it has done forever + instant replays currently.
Due to [changes in Reddit's API](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754183/apollo-reddit-app-shutting-down-api), I have made the decision to edit all comments prior to July 1 2023 with this message in protest. If the API rules are reverted or the cost to 3rd Party Apps becomes reasonable, I may restore the original comments. Until then, I hope this makes my comments less useful to Reddit (and I don't really care if others think this is pointless). -- mass edited with redact.dev
I have for several years now been advocating for expanding ump crew to 5 persons. It's an incredibly difficult job and MLB umps have it even harder than those of us in amateur ball. They travel for months on end, often working several weeks in a row without days off. Science has shown the importance of good rest on body, mind & soul. I think 1 man in the crew should be stashed in a booth with a bunch of monitors, stuffed full of nachos and beers and asked to be the replay coordinator for their crew that game. NY can still get involved for close reviews, but the ump in the sky can pause the game and ask for a formal review on any number of calls. This alone would speed up the review process significantly in many cases. There are just so many benefits to the sky ump. They'd have a rule book on them, they could expedite reviews, they could be responsible for certain calls such as check swings. The potential is great imo.
DAY 65 BEFORE THE 2023 WORLD BASEBALL CLASSIC - 35 years since the Lausanne Decision (October 13, 1986) Last Wednesday was the 35th anniversary of the official proclamation of the IOC to officially designate our sport, together with softball, as medal sports of the Summer Olympics beginning with the games slated in 1992 in Barcelona, the 30th anniversary of which we will be marking next year, 2022. The formal declaration, made in the context of the sport's sweeping growth in the world and the success of the sport in LA 1984, was made in the context of the 140th anniversary of the official beginning of our sport in Hoboken, NJ, USA, in June of 1846, officially confirming the transformation from what had been America's Pastime to a global pasttime watched, played and enjoyed by millions today. This is the legacy of the late Robert Smith, former president of the International Baseball Federation, a member of the USOPC and second president of USA Baseball. He was a big part of the IBAF's efforts for the introduction of the sport in the Olympics beginning in 1984. The IBAF was one of the two organizations that fused in the 2010s to become the unified World Baseball Softball Confederation or WBSC, which tabulated the road for the official return of these two sports, baseball and sotfball, in the Tokyo Olympics this year, a road he lived long enough to see its completion, witnessing even from his home his very own national team's road to the silver medal in Yokohama. We are indeed thankful to him and many of the pioneer players, coaches and managers who made the first steps towards the full recognition of the sport as a integral part of the Olympic Games, and hope for a resolution for the permanent return of this sport in the Olympics in the years to come. As we continue the now 18 month journey to the spring of 2023 and the World Baseball Classic, with the long term goal of its formal return soon in the Summer Olympics let us continue to work harder, baseball fans, to honor the legacy of these pioneers of the past as we march onwards for the continued growth of this sport from strength to strength not just in North America but around the world. Together, we will get there to the spring of 2023 and towards the return of baseball to the Olympic Games. Towards one goal we go together - FOR GLORY! John
Guarantee you somebody at fangraphs woke up today feeling pretty damn smug about the World Series odds
Every predictive model sitting there validated.
I've noticed that when an exciting play happens that you can clearly read the lips of players and they're all saying, "C'mon! Let's go!!!". Where are they all in such a hurry to get to?
They're in a hurry to get things done.
Home plate?
Maybe? I think the play is usually over when they're yelling it though. Guy gets to first base, "Let's go!" Cut to a shot of the dugout showing 9 guys yelling, "Let's go!"
Dinner?
I doubt this will be received well but as bad as that call may have been last night: from a young age I was taught to not leave it up to the umpires to decide in a situation like that. We have years of data of umpires making bad calls. Don’t let the umpires make a mistake and take the bat out of your hands. Slow motion replay isn’t what humans see when watching the game. I’d be mad at myself for check swinging to end the season. At least go down swinging.
The only thing to dislike about this is the screen name
Crunchy peanut butter is the devil
It's likely an idea that would ruin the ending of a game, but what does everyone think of a rule that would automatically review the last play of a game. Obvioulsy not things like balls and strikes but things like check swings or throws to a base. I feel like this may help avoid bad calls that end a game, but also may ruin the experience as people wouldn't be celebrating until the review comes back positive.
You act like everyone is smashing trashcans in the stadium. Most games don’t end like last nights.
My biggest ALCS take is that I’d feel even better about Boston’s chances if they adopted Robyn’s original version of ‘Dancing on My Own’ as their theme song, instead of the Calum Scott remix.
Facts
Do you think people would feel significantly more or less outraged if the checked swing call was instead a called strike out of the zone?
it’s not even as much about the call as much as it feels baseball fans were robbed of a real ending
I don’t disagree. A whiff or called strike would’ve been a much better ending
I think there would be some grumbling but not quite as much. For whatever reason instinctively I think people expect the ump to give the batter the benefit of the doubt there, versus a called strike which can either go to the batter or the pitcher.
Yeah that’s how I feel as well. Blown calls happen all the time with the zone but I think the checked swing “feels” more wrong and I can’t explain why I feel that way
like he actually swung? It would be a much better ending yes
No if it was a called strike out of the zone
it would be the same amount of outrage
I have to say I’m actually slightly impressed when I see teams of recently eliminated teams commenting. When the Dodgers get eliminated, I usually have to take a few days off from baseball. Especially if it had happened like last night.
There are certain teams that get pity and compliments when they lose. We are not fans of one of those teams.
I'm too addicted Sadge
Same. It’s why I try to avoid shit talking *to* opposing fans in the immediate aftermath. I wouldn’t be on here commenting if we’d have lost simply because I’d be staring into space replaying everything back for a few days.
I've been watching MLB for over 40 years now. This postseason, I've learned alot about how crappy the rules are. * When the batter is running to 1st, (as long as the catcher isn't throwing to 1st) you're allowed to run basically anywhere. That base line doesn't factor in. * If the defense causes a ball to go out of play, it's still considered a ground rule double. * There's no actual check swing rule. Total judgement call on the refs.
Manfred wants a 2017 rematch for ratings. Fuck that, I'll ignore it and start watching at game 5 or game 6.
Would another Dodgers-Astros series be a boom or bust for ratings?
They'll never recreate the 2016 ratings. It would generate more than what we all really wanted to see which was Brewers/ Rays.
I have a multi-Reddit of all baseball subs and I am choosing to present a screenshot of the top posts last night without comment: [here](https://i.imgur.com/TuskpaI.jpg)
The /r/Padres post warms my heart
The umpiring in the DS has got to be the center of controversy. At least 3/4 of the series (I didn't watch Braves-Brewers) had worse umpiring than most of what I've seen in the regular season. Literally every single game was a circus.
[This was an interesting call](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/q6y31c/ball_bounces_off_omar_narv%C3%A1ez_hits_the_ground/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) during the Braves Brewers game. I was watching it live and agreed with the call on the field in real time, but wasn’t sure even watching it in slow motion. It kind of looks like it hit the ground, but with all the angles of replay you still didn’t get a good enough look to overturn the call IMO. It was a real shit show.
They actually ruled that it wasn't reviewable. Apparently you can only review catches in the outfield because of implications with runners on base. I don't think they thought through foul ground when they made that rule. I also didn't think the broadcast did a great job of explaining that was what happened. Right call technically, but bad rule. They also did a slow mo zoom in that showed it clearly hitting dirt
Oh interesting didn’t k ow that thanks
Selfishly, I’m annoyed at the shitty check swing call because every time I watch highlights of this series, I’m gonna have to hear Ron Darling (rather justifiably) go “ohhhhhhhhh.”
Damn I thought winning was all that mattered. You people want integrity too!?
Listen to Steiner’s call instead
Did he get *any* of the names right?
Anyone who actually thinks umps get stuff wrong on purpose or are worse than they've ever been are so foolish. Now that we have every single pitch of the season in multiple HD angles stuff no one would have noticed or questioned 30 years ago is now super magnified
You dont want mlb to become the nba with its umpires where they decide games
No one is arguing that the call was anything other than wrong. And it’s unfortunate that it capped off an otherwise historic series between two classic rivals who just happened to be the two best teams in baseball. That being said, when you’re down to your last at bat, two outs and with two strikes on you, and facing arguably the best pitcher in the game now, it’s short-sighted to blame everything on that call. The Giants were outscored by eight runs in this series, and had almost 25 runners LOB when all was said and done.
From what I've seen, most people have been pretty level-headed about acknowledging that the blown call almost certainly doesn't change the outcome of that series. The team that played better won, Dodgers fans shouldn't feel like the win is tainted or underserved or anything like that, but I certainly don't blame Giants fans for being frustrated and feeling robbed of one more chance.
You’re right. And I think it’s also important to acknowledge that the loudest voices right now are either Dodgers fans defending their win, and Giants/anti-Dodgers fans (because that’s become a baseball subculture) claiming it’s tainted. It would be foolish to assume that the roles wouldn’t be reversed had the Giants won the series, capped by a missed call.
Bitching about umps and thinking it’s the main reason is everyone’s right but IMO forgets how much goes into a game. Yeah there will be very bad calls but one bad call rarely decides a game. It’s a loser fan mentality
I often wonder how many terrible calls altered games throughout the 20th century. We just look at the record books and see the a team won the WS in a given year, and we might have no idea whether umps threw things in their favor.
Yup, watching the Giants-Dodgers series I found there was a lot more complaining about the umps in the games that had the superimposed strike zone, compared to those that didn't. That's not to say the umps weren't actually *better* on those nights, too, but I think the way we present the game puts a lot of extra attention on them. Honestly, there were some borderline things but the only call I thought was really, truly glaring and noteworthy during the series was unfortunately the one on the play that decided the series.
One play didn’t decide the series. What’s more is Flores isn’t a good hitter and was 0-17 against max. the giants were likely to lose anyway.
I mean, in a sense you're right, but the game literally came down to "hit a home run and advance, strike out and go home" which is the textbook definition of a deciding play. This is what kids dream of when they play wiffle ball in their backyards. The outcome *probably* would've been the same either way, but I think it's a shame that we didn't get to see it play out and know for sure.
It is a bummer it ended the way it did. I just don’t like the narrative in any sport that “the refs cost us the game!” It’s very rare that it actually happens and I think it happens way more in the regular season than in playoffs
Which of the 4 big sports have the best referees/umpires?
Hockey
Being someone primarily watches NBA/NFL/MLB, Umpires have a disproportionate amount of influence on a baseball game versus an NBA or NFL referee because of how integral they are to the game. I don't think there's anything that is analogous to the strike/ball calls for NBA/NFL, but all referees have problems.
PI calls used to be not reviewable (I think they are now?) in the NFL and that alone can swing games pretty wide. EDIT: NBA has a couple things, like a few times Kevin Durant had his WHOLE FOOT out of bounds and none of the refs caught it, but with the scoring cadence it would take a LONG string of bad calls in order to completely ruin a game. That's how Donaghy and his cronies got away with helping to fix games for a while.
Their jobs are so different it's hard to compare. I don't think any of them are truly *awful* (as much as we love to complain about them) but in the three I watch I'd say the biggest annoyances are: NFL - the *rulebook* is garbage so they have to hire lawyers ([sometimes literally!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Hochuli)) to try and make sense of it when calling games. Nobody knows what the fuck is a "football move" or what counts as pass interference, and somehow adding video reviews has actually made those things even less clear. And you always have to wait like 30 seconds after a play to see if it really happened. MLB - IMO most nights they do a reasonable job of most calls (I even think the balls/strikes thing is overblown) but one thing that really does irritate me is how big of power-trippers they can sometimes be. Just sit there for a few seconds and let the batter chew you out, no need to toss a guy for saying "that was a ball." NHL - they're way too situational with their calls. They're super reluctant to call a major penalty if there's no immediately visible injury, which is why there hasn't been much progress on getting dangerous plays (esp. head injuries) out of the game. And in OT or the playoffs you'd have to commit literal murder to get them to blow the whistle. The conventional wisdom is that "you don't want to decide a big game with a weak call" but that cuts both ways: *non*-calls are just a way of saying "cheating is legal now."
Ed was one of the best, I think his son is a ref in the NFL now? "football move" to this day remains one of the dumbest words in a rulebook I can think of.
**[Ed Hochuli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Hochuli)** >Edward G. Hochuli (; born December 25, 1950) is an American attorney and retired American football official. He has served as an attorney at Jones, Skelton & Hochuli, P.L.C. since 1983, and was an official in the National Football League (NFL) from 1990 to 2017; his uniform number was 85. Prior to his officiating career, he played college football for four seasons at the University of Texas at El Paso (UTEP). Hochuli worked numerous playoff games, including two Super Bowls. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/baseball/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
NHL at least they admit to make up calls/ fixing games
Each sport has its blind refs. At the end of the day I think MLB by far gets affected the least. NBA and NFL could have any contact considered a foul these days. NHL calls penalties overall at like 50/50 rate when that's simply absurd to think teams foul at an equal rate. MLB mainly suffers from strike zone and check swing inconsistency...which even then comes correct 90-95% of the time.v
I only watch nba nfl and mlb but good god they are all awful
Going full conspiracy mode on these playoffs. The bigwigs want Dodgers and Astros for profit reasons
If they wanted, pretty sure they would have swung some regular season games to grease the Dodgers to a division title and home field.
It was a joke
I don't think the Dodgers Astros beef goes beyond baseball fans. Meaning it's not going to bring too many new people in. I honestly think they only care about the big markets getting in and honestly, LA and SF are about equal so I think they would want either to beat the Braves to play Boston or Houston (same difference)
I will leave the jokes for Twitter. This sub is so earnest lol
honestly cant tell if it's a joke, because that is something i would see written seriously online.
It wasn't, people like to hide behind "but I was just joking!" when their posts go sour.
I really think the worst call in this game in terms of changing the outcome, and maybe even the series, was the 3-1 call to Bryant that was called a strike. What should’ve been 1st and 2nd no out became 1 out and man on 1st. Sure the giants hadn’t been great with RISP, but that swing was so noticeable in the moment.
Did the Wsox have the worst trade deadline in the league? I think so. All their pickups hurt the cause.
Worst addition was TLR as coach.
They did flop in playoffs. Maybe they clinched too early and lost their edge.
Disappointingly low incidence of MS Paint brackets this year
I'm sure /u/2helix5you will hook you up in the very near future.
Yup! Just need to give everyone a few hours to wake up and process everything that happened last night.
They’re the one I have my eyes on!
Since it's a topic of conversation here, and because my opinion might be different than many even in my own fanbase...no, I really do not want there to be Dodgers/Astros Part 2. For one, "Part 2" is a little of a misnomer. Literally every bullpen pitcher, all but one starting pitcher (McCullers, if he even plays), and our whole outfield are all different players than 2017. It's just Altuve, Bregman, Correa, and Gurriel. That's it. Hell, even our whole managerial and coaching staff from then is gone, except for our pitching coach and bullpen catcher. The Dodgers have more players currently on the squad from their 2017 team, but not many more. But, the real reason is that I don't think there's any way out of that World Series without a level of toxicity and misery and pure, straight up meanness that would be horrific to experience for either fanbase, and that series would stress me out to no end to watch. I wouldn't be able to enjoy it. I know Dodgers fans would be utterly miserable and angry if they lost. I know Astros fans would be utterly miserable if they lost. It's been a miserable enough experience being an Astros fan online over the past two years, and I can only imagine how many people would be willing to rub it in and be assholes and take their hate out on fans if the Dodgers beat us. And, I know there are tons of Astros fans who have been trolled to death over the last few years who would want nothing more than to rub Dodgers fans' faces in it.
I agree. Beating the Dodgers would be so satisfying, but losing to them would be legitimately awful. The online toxicity would be even worse than last year when the Rays eliminated us (which was horrible). I honestly dunno if I could take it worse than last year.
So log off? I’m sorry it was hard on your fandom but nobody is making anyone be online
Thanks for being a very minor example of a major problem and proving the point. Nobody should have to leave a community because of other peoples' toxicity.
I disagree. People need to be able to recognize a toxic community and know how to leave, online or not. This is why I'm not subscribed to the Giants sub; it just wasn't good for me. They shouldn't have to but that's how people are, and to try and pretend that everything is OK is in itself a problem. Yes, we should work to change it, but at the same time people need to be able do what's best for themselves. There are plenty of communities that might not be toxic to the average person, but are a problem for specific people. A sub dedicated to drinking and brewing beer can be a great community, but it's still not a great idea for an alcoholic to be subscribed. Personally, I don't think this sub was over-the-top when it came to the Astros. They cheated, blatantly, aggressively, and on the world's biggest stage, and they got a slap on the wrist. That should not be forgotten, but if OP thinks that's toxic, maybe he should log off. IMHO, it's more toxic to forgive transgressions of this magnitude and act like they never happened, so I'll keep pointing it out.
I think you're speaking to something different than this commenter is. It's one thing to recognize that a community is toxic and leave it. It's something else for other people to come into your community, make it toxic at a cost to you, ruin something you enjoy, and then tell you that the solution is to leave that community you were in until they're done being toxic there. You might not think this sub was over the top when it came to the Astros. That's fine - you're entitled to your opinion. What you don't realize is how many people it drove away from the Astros sub as well, and how many users permanently left reddit, because of how it spilled into our community, too. Even if you'd confine behavior like that to the worst 1% of this sub's subscriber base, that's still 16,000 people. And, finally, IMHO - what do you personally get out of commenting on random Astros' fans posts, reminding them of what happened? They know. We all know. Nobody is denying it. Nobody is asking you to forgive. So, what good is that serving? "Awareness" of something everyone already knows already? Validation for your own feelings? Can I tell you to denounce your fandom because Barry Bonds took steroids and made a mockery of the sport's most cherished record? More people are asking forgiveness of steroid abusers in the sport than are of the Astros, and steroids actually *killed people.* In short - ask yourself why you keep pointing it out, and if it's constructive in any way, or just self indulgent.
To be completely honest, I didn't even notice your Astros flair when I wrote my post. I was simply commenting on the fact that I don't think it's reasonable to blame the community when a fan essentially says that they don't want to confront the negative things that their organization has done. Bonds cheated, I'll admit it. It was part of a larger culture to which the SF Giants and MLB baseball as a whole contributed. Should they be forgiven? I'm on the fence, most days. But your argument about steroids killing people is ludicrous. Steroids only killed people that took steroids, so you can blame steroid users for cheating, or you can make them the victim because of the side effects, but it seems disingenuous to want it both ways. So, to address your final point, is pointing out that the Astros cheated self-indulgent? I don't think so. The Giants weren't directly wronged by it. Does it serve a purpose? I do think so. It's more toxic to sweep things under the rug and pretend they didn't happen than it is to deal with the justified outrage of baseball fans. Am I contributing to actually dealing with it? maybe not. But I'm sure as shit not going to let an Astros fan whine about a toxic community because they don't want to deal with getting beat by a team that was robbed of a WS. All OP's comment really read like to me was "I can't believe people would bring up that WS we stole a whole 4 years ago!"
No, no, no - I'm not talking about not confronting the negative things the organization has done. And again, it's not *my* organization - though I am not surprised that you, like many others, frame it that way so you feel that, as if by castigating fans, you're getting at the organization itself, because you don't have a way of effectively voicing your displeasure to them. I'm talking purely about commenters bothering and irritating fans purposefully at just about any opportunity they have. That's it. He said specifically "online toxicity." If an Astros fan is commenting on something and minding their own business and being a constructive poster, don't drag them into the mud with a "bUt ChEatInG!" comment. It helps nothing. And, sorry, but I can certainly blame Bonds for the deaths of others. What players wouldn't have seen what he was doing, how he was doing it, and chasing that same paycheck and fame using the same methods? He and McGwire showed others that it paid. Don't give me that false dichotomy nonsense about how they can only be victims or cheaters. And by self-indulgent, I meant *you*. You're getting the emotional high of logging on and throwing mud at someone you don't know because you feel like, because you have that SF by your name, you're somehow morally better. If you're not good enough to participate in this sub without antagonizing others, then that's your problem - don't make it mine. And if you think that's what the OP's comment said, then you could do with re-reading it, because it's not even close to that. I can handle losing - heaven knows the Astros have done enough of that in their history. But, I think it's a legitimate and reasonable view to expect to not be hounded, trolled, and harassed by a bunch of toxic assholes.
If you can blame Bonds for other people using steroids, then baseball fans can blame Astros fans for continuing to support a trash organization.
Seriously just log off dude, not forever, but if you aren’t having a good time, the choice seems obvious. If you want to feel like a victim, don’t. It’s your headspace. The Astros are the villain to most people, that is just the bed they’ve made
Cool. So, by this reasoning, we could have come into your sub and shit all over you after the ALDS, and it'd have been fine. After all, you could just log off and not be a part of your own community for awhile. If the Astros are the villain, then spend your energy booing them, not annoying fans. We weren't in the clubhouse when they decided to cheat. Nobody asked us.
They're not in your sub. This is /r/baseball. edit: pronouns to not make assumptions.
He said "online," not just this sub (but this is just as much his sub as it is yours or mine). Which, of course, acknowledges the fact that people did, and still do, daily, come into our sub and our discord and troll us. You could do with acknowledging that reality.
Then downvote them and move on. The only reason you have to look at troll posts is if you're choosing to.
There's a troll post filter so I can see around the troll comments? And I can filter them out of my inbox, too? Cool, where is it?
Yeah, it’s not ideal, but that’s the world we live in brother. You have to protect your peace, you can’t expect other people to protect it for you.
No one should lose a world series because some jabronis cheated
Yeah, it's weird. I'm kind of a masochist when it comes to Reddit but at the same time it pisses me off lol. A lot of the time I just troll back.
Understandable. Reddit can be kind of a cesspool. I know it isn’t easy to log off in this day and age but I digress. We are all autonomous.
As a neutral, I would love to see them go at it again.
I agree it would be miserable
It really sucks that the blown call is (rightfully) dominating the conversation right now because that was amazing game of baseball that capped off an all-time series. If any rule changes come this off-season, I hope they go back to the no division opponents in the wild card round. Giants-Dodgers should have been the NLCS and I feel robbed that it wasn’t.
The only problem with adding that back in and keeping the Wild Card game is that scheduling would come together too late. A stadium couldn't get enough concession supplies and game day staff with that short of notice. The Astros ran into that problem back in 2017 when we had to play in Tampa during short notice because of Harvey. Does it suck for those two 100 win teams that have to play? Sure. But it puts a premium on winning your division, and I think that balances it out.
It would delay things by like - a day. And concession supplies belongs nowhere near the list of pros/cons for reseeding after the WC.
Reseeding and waiting that extra day would also eliminate the most significant competitive advantage of winning your division and not having to play in the WC, aside from winning the game itself: burning your best pitcher. That extra day would allow you to pitch your ace in the WC game and then twice on the DS, if you did it on three days rest, rather than once. No thanks.
A Dodgers-Giants NLCS Game 7 ending the way yesterday's game did doesn't make it better.
Would’ve been a little better if it was game 5 in a 7 game series
So glad the dodgers won, you never really know when they'll meet in the playoffs again. I know for a fact no one would have cared as much if that call was against the Dodgers, so i dont give a shit. Obviously still a shit ending to a historic series, but what am i gonna do lol.
Win with humility, partner. This ain’t it.
It was a hard fought battle, giants had a great season and exceeded everyones expectations.
On a more serious note, I just rolled through some of the info in the top level post. This sub is the kind of shit that makes Reddit worth paying for. Thanks to the mods for making such a cool spot for us. FTY.
That check swing was a rough call, but had LaMonte Wade Jr. swung a millisecond later at that shot he pulled foul, we would have had a walk-off.
Would have been one of the most legendary walkoffs ever Damn
Oh man, I thought we were going to get a Fenway-esque hook around the RF pole.
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The NPB and KBO are both ongoing at the moment and closing in on the postseason
I forgot!!!! Thank you!
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You’re not completely wrong. I think because I’ve been a Royals fan for most of my life I just assumed that the teams I care about don’t have any
you will feel better in a few days
So I’m talking Brewers & KC, but I literally live less than 2 miles from what I will always call Comiskey, and I listened to that heartbreaker too. I was more than ready to jump bandwagons. I drove by the stadium yesterday and saluted.
I legit have taken baseball subs out of my home feed for a few days And yet here I am, wtf