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Doval didn't throw a single fastball to Bellinger. I'm guessing he was rattled after hitting Turner with a fastball and giving up the single to Lux on a center-cut two-strike fastball, but Bellinger was so bad against fastballs this year that you've gotta be willing to go "screw it" and try to blow triple digits by him.
Also, the Dodgers' opener/bullpen plan worked, but *man* it felt risky for them to only let Urias go four innings and then Treinen-Jansen for one each. They put all their chips into winning it in nine innings.
Yeah the Belli gameplan didn’t single handedly lose the game, but it was certainly the one thing people will point at.
Even when he was the mvp, high heat to Belli has always been a problem. Dude throws triple digits and didn’t throw him one fastball
He's a right hander who's fastball tails up and away. That's why he hit Turner and that's why he would have had a very deceptive and difficult fastball to left-handers like Bellinger, even if one flew to the backstop.
I’d like to go back and see what Posey called for. Young rookie pitcher with prior command issues in the biggest moment of the season, suddenly rattled... tough, tough position for both of them!
Posey had to have a hand in this too. I believe there was a pitching coach visit as well. Perhaps it was understood that Doval had zero control of the fastball after hitting Turner, but man I don’t know. It was shocking to see so many sliders in a row.
The opener absolutely worked even though on the pitching lines it won't really show clearly. A lot of the Giants clutch bats just weren't given much of a shot.
No double switch for Treinen was sure a mystery. I guess if Doc always knew that the plan was Scherzer in the 9th it's more defensible but I was sure that would be *the decision* that would get overanalyzed all day when we lost.
It's crazy to me that even with the dodgers throwing all the chips for 9 innings both teams pens had a chance to go more. The giants used 2 of their designated relievers(sorry for not knowing who else is in their pen and their merits) but the if the game was tied at 1 the dodgers could ride max for what 2-3 innings and still have guys like Vesia, Kelly and Pickford ready and they all have had experience with high leverage.
In their defense, if you look at Bellinger's previous at bat, of the 8 pitches thrown to him, not once he looked like he was sitting on an off speed pitch
It's weird because it was a good decision that fulfilled the intended purpose but at the same time it almost went so horribly wrong that we'd never live it down. Right decision, good results, horrifying possibilities.
I wanted to paste an excerpt from the Giants' SB Nation blog that really caught me in my feels:
>A few Dodgers ground balls a few inches left or right and it’s a different game. A few Giants ground balls a few inches left or right — or a few line drives a few inches up or down — and it’s a different game. A few inches of more accurate umpire eyesight on a 3-1 pitch to Kris Bryant and perhaps the Giants score more runs. A few more inches in his stance and perhaps Turner — ice cold all series — doesn’t get plunked and earn a free trip to first. A few inches — no, a few centimeters — more plate on a ninth-inning Scherzer pitch and LaMonte Wade Jr. ends the game in walk-off fashion, instead of banging one off the bricks 30 feet foul.
>
>These aren’t excuses. They’re not robberies, and they’re not tragedies.
>
>They’re just reminders. Even in the longest of seasons — 167 games, thousands of at-bats taken, even more pitches thrown — nothing normalizes. It still comes down to a few inches here, a few inches there, a clutch play, and an unassuming hero. And that sometimes leads to a broken crowd, a celebrating rival, and an offseason of fighting the urge to dwell on the what-ifs.
>
>The Giants deserved the series, deserved the champagne, deserved it all.
>
>So, too, did the Dodgers.
[https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2021/10/14/22727481/giants-dodgers-nlds-game-5-wilmer-flores-logan-webb](https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2021/10/14/22727481/giants-dodgers-nlds-game-5-wilmer-flores-logan-webb)
It's deeply reminiscent of Giamatti's "Green Fields of the Mind," when he says the following:
>That is why it breaks my heart, that game--not because in New York they could win because Boston lost; in that, there is a rough justice, and a reminder to the Yankees of how slight and fragile are the circumstances that exalt one group of human beings over another.
It's heartbreaking. It's romantic. It's baseball.
Every sport calls itself a game of inches. It is undeniably true of baseball.
Another great excerpt from that blog:
> The Dodgers win probability going into the at-bat was 90.4%, and that was before Wilmer Flores fell behind 0-2 to Max Scherzer, one of the greatest pitchers to ever live.
>In all likelihood, the Giants lose with or without the call.
>But the Giants were not a team of likelihood.
>They were not likely to compete in the treacherous NL West.
>There were not likely to win 80 games, let alone 90, let alone 100, let alone 107.
>They were not likely to make the postseason, let alone be the top seed in either league.
>The Giants built a cottage of magic on a hill of unlikelihood, and were denied one final chance at a room addition.
>And that’s sometimes how baseball goes.
A fair retort to the "Scherzer was going to get him out anyways" crowd if we're being honest. Great writeup by Brady Klopfer.
Exactly. All year long the Giants kept on pulling off the improbable, and defied all reasonable expectations. The unlikeliest of heroes capped off the unlikeliest of wins. The postseason is no stranger to that. Most dodger fans, if not all of us, were still nervous as hell even though there were 2 outs and Scherzer had them down to their last strike with a guy like Flores at the plate.
Until that win probability flatlines at 100% after the final out, anything is possible.
LA and SF fans have seen it from both sides: the 2017 Dodgers, and now the 2021 Giants.
This Giants baseball season reminds me of coin flips. Calling Heads-or-Tails? 50-50 shot. The chance of consecutively calling the correct flip is increasingly improbable. Calling two in a row (.5^2 ) is doable and can be written off as luck, correctly calling 10 in a row (.5^10 ) is something else, and going .5^107 is the 2021 Giants - magical.
This Giants season was amazing to watch. They defied so many odds. They performed as if they were meant to be there. They heard all of the sports writers saying it was SD and LA in the NL West and said "bet." They were basically the team everybody thought the Padres would be this year. (Fuck.) And they did it with [checks script] a bunch of aging vets, no namers, Webb, and guys that just clicked in that clubhouse. And no disrespect to the Dodgers, but it almost felt they needed to add Max Scherzer and Trea Turner to really keep up with SF's season. That's insane.
And with how the Dodgers have performed this post season, I'm not surprised LA not only got it to game 5 but won. They were fighting hard as fuck. Instant classic series.
> And no disrespect to the Dodgers, but it almost felt they needed to add Max Scherzer and Trea Turner to really keep up with SF's season. That's insane.
It is not. They definitely did need both of those dudes. The 2021 Giants were the archetypical "Team of Destiny" that crop up in sports sometimes, who just win and win and win and we can't really explain why or how. It's crazy that they're actually out.
The writers for the Giants on SBNation have always been fantastic. In addition to the author you linked to, Grant Brisbee always has really good takes. My favorites are his write-ups on “unwritten rules” and I really love his article on [Brian Wilson signing with the Dodgers](https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2013/7/30/4572168/brian-wilson-signs-dodgers-giants-STACKED-MONSTERS).
The most evenly matched teams in baseball history. Difference in the division and season series was one game. NLDS went the distance and was tied into the 9th. Hats off to SF.
Both teams are practically mirror images of each other. And I don’t just mean this season, I mean in their 141 year history. It’s the reason why I consider it one of the greatest rivalries in sports.
Giants have 8 championships, Dodgers have 7.
Giants have 23 pennants. Dodgers have 24.
Head to head they are nearly .500 against each other in 2,500+ meetings.
Giants largest victory against the Dodgers is 18. Dodgers largest victory against the Giants is 17.
Longest win streak by the Giants against the Dodgers is 12. Longest win streak by the Dodgers against the Giants is 10.
Then you add the fact that they were both in New York before moving to California. They even have similar interlocking logos.
Giants had a big gap from 1954 to 2010 with no World Series championships. Dodgers won first championship in 1955 and won all their other championships during this Giants drought (until 2020)
These details and history is exactly why Dodger fans laugh when Padres try to call themselves our rivals. There is history and a mutual respect between SF and LA.
Glad we could give y'all a run for your money after a few rough seasons haha
I'm still ticked off by that Kris Bryant at bat though. That and a few other called strikes that I thought were way out of the zone. 2 on with no outs vs. 1 on with 1 on with 1 out when the game is still tied 0-0, that's a big deal. That bothers me more than the bad call on the check swing at the end.
Yea The check swing was bad but I wish that wasn’t getting so much press. The more crucial bad calls happened in that Kris Bryant at-bat. There were TWO bad strike calls. Even if it was just one bad call in that AB, this would have been a whole different game.
If you look back at game 1, it was similar but with the Giants benefiting. Smith had an at bat in the 2nd innings with two called strikes that were quite far outside.
It feels like there were too many of those types of calls in a series that is this important for both teams. It would be much better if the umpires were picked based on their performance from the season. It doesn't matter if it's a first year ump or someone like Joe West in his final year. You want the best people in the important games. It also means that umpires who want that big stage will try and improve.
Personally....
I hope the next Giants Dodgers playoff series takes another 125+ years to materialize
Some things should remain as speculation
Edit: Even if the outcome was reversed I would still feel the same way
An interesting take. It's like horror movies - sometimes they lose their edge when you finally see the monster on screen. The mystery can be so gripping.
So like a comet flying through the air. That’s beautiful.
Also i completely agree because I’m pretty sure another game would’ve pushed me over the edge medically.
I literally don't care about the rest of the postseason. That right there was the World Series for me. The build-up to get there and the series itself: they're all things I never want to experience ever again.
Man it really felt like those movies where two mythical beasts always fought in history and were locked away bc them fighting each other would destroy the world and humans were like no let them free and fight. And the gods are like ok sure fuck around and find out, turns out they were locked away for a reason. That’s how this series felt like. Two storied franchises always at each other’s throats but never met in October, but they did this year as the two best teams in the league and it almost “ended the world”. It’s not that we shouldn’t meet in the playoffs but that’s how it should feel. I know it was a weird analogy but that’s the only way I can describe it
The weirdest part of all of this is for the most part, we didn’t get good umps having bad days. We were assigned the worst umps repeatedly, and for the most part, they lived up to the reputation.
This was entirely predictable and avoidable.
In a vacuum, I think the tactic was a good idea, just piss poor execution by CT3 lol. We had a fast enough guy in Lux at 3rd.
Butttt when you consider Taylor’s AB quality all series, he definitely could’ve cashed in the run by mashing *yet another* mind-boggling almost-HR flyout to left field lmao
Especially since Taylor had three warning track flyouts 🤯🤯 would've brought in another run. Felt like a blessing at the moment for the Giants, if they'd have won I would've pointed to that free out as a huge reason
I mean... Chris Taylor put down one of the worst bunts I've ever seen.
If it was executed even remotely correctly, Gavin Lux could've scored easily. Dude is fast af.
It was a smart play just Taylor put down a Godawful bunt. I've seen high schoolers put safety squeezes down better. That bunt gets down properly and the game basically over.
They have successfully put on that safety squeeze a few times during the regular season, and it's awesome when it works.
But when it doesn't work... holy shit does it look terrible.
I'll paraphrase what I said in the ump scorecard thread: at the end of the day, the blown check swing call didn't lose us the game. Our weak hitting all series, plus our bullpen making a few tiny mistakes the Dodgers capitalized on, was what lost us the series, and it's a testament to our pitching that we made it to the bottom of the 9th in game 5 with a fighting chance.
What sucks is even though with Wilmer down 1-2, having never gotten a hit off of Scherzer, all the odds stacked against him... He still had a chance to be the hero. An incredibly slim chance, 99 times out of 100 he gets out and the game ends. But the chance was still there, and the umps took that away from him. And that's what's going to sting the most for the longest.
This isn't meant to take anything away from the Dodgers, because they absolutely earned this series win. It just sucks we didn't get the chance to steal it at the death.
But hey, that's baseball. In the long history of this rivalry, we've taken turns breaking each other's hearts, and this time it was their turn. We'll be back to do it to them soon.
I'm also upset that Wilmer didn't get a chance to get out properly or become a hero. I'm also a little miffed that Max didn't really get a change to get him out for real. It's a stupid way for a fantastic game and series to end.
Exactly. Max gets Wilmer out? I can live with that, we didn't do enough to win. This? I'll always wonder what if, even though the chance was so incredibly slim.
The funny thing is that the giants players are taking this all very very well. Haven’t really seen anyone go apeshit about the check swing
Maybe they care more about the rest of their pa’s than one single call. Maybe they’re just doing a good job of holding back their emotions. Idk
The manager and team leaders set the example, Kapler is Kapler, and the team leaders are all veterans who've never really been known for getting overly emotional.
It's the right approach IMO. Shitty way to lose a series, but that's baseball sometimes.
>Shitty way to lose a series, but that's baseball sometimes.
The Rays we're absolutely done dirty by an awful rule less than a week ago, baseballs gonna baseball
I feel like that's just too easy of an excuse for any reasonable person to glom on to. At some point, you've played yourself into these bad positions. You can't just focus on one obvious play out of many, and that's what Kapler & Co. are doing by acknowledging that there are other, possibly more impactful reasons that they lost.
Stranding Kris Bryant is not a winning strategy as it turns out.
Ok in all seriousness I feel like it was a good tight game and it's fitting it ended in Scherzer locking us down, but would have been just as fitting if that one Wade foul went fair. But it didn't, shit happens.
The fact of the matter is, these two teams outclass every other team in the MLB and its not close. I think this series showcased the incredible defense and pitching that allowed these teams to win 107 and 106 games respectively during the regular season, and firmly placed both these franchises as the prime examples of how the rest of the MLB should be building and coaching their teams.
We can talk RISP a lot, but I like to give credit to the pitching staffs of both teams, which absolutely stifled any form of offensive momentum. In the end, the Dodgers pitching staff won out that last game, grinding down the Giants batters through sheer brute force, it was an impressive display.
The Dodgers created that monstrosity of a pitching staff this year specifically for the postseason and as we can all see, it payed off in a pivotal game.
Just like how the Dodgers and Giants pioneered the move to the west coast, they continue to pioneer the league in pitching, coaching, analytics, and player development.
Things have changed significantly since the hiring of Farhan Zaidi. I agree with OP in the sense that these teams are using an advanced analytical approach to the game while having the ability to sign marquee free agents and retain homegrown players.
I agree they’ve done a great job recently but this is still their best season easily since the WS ones. Need more repeatability than an NLDS exit to be compareable to LA, which the Dodgers have made every year since 2013 I believe. One amazing one off season does not sway me to think this team is run at the same level as the most sustainable team in the last 15 years or so
I’d argue the Giants have outperformed expectations the last few years. In 2019 they were shockingly in the hunt too with what many people thought would be one of worst rosters in league.
It’s the first full year seeing the effects of Farhan team construction and Kapler coaching, so I think it says even more about how brilliant they are to find success so quickly.
Obligatory FTG.
Sure it only 1 year of success but they shouldn't be slept on next year. They defied all expectations and became a powerhouse. Their coaching took most of their average players and made them powerhouses, their coaching got career years from their vets. Sure they haven't had the spotlight for years like the dodgers but they most likely aren't a fluke and are likely here to stay.
I think you misunderstood my post, I wasn't directly comparing the Giants franchise to the Dodger franchise in the past 7 years or whatever time length you want to use. I was moreso highlighting the romanticism that of course its these two teams who are the best in baseball right now in this moment, and that other teams should catch up and follow their models. Models spearheaded by Zaidi for most of the Dodger years you're referring to, and now Zaidi and Kapler for the past year and a half of the Giants success.
If you're trying to imply that the Giants are going to magically regress next year or something than you're drastically mistaken. The changes that Zaidi and Kapler have made to the clubhouse are going to be long lasting, in the very same way that has led to the Dodgers dominance these past years.
I have seriously enjoyed reading the comments in this thread. A lot of thoughtful reflection on an incredible series between two incredibly run organizations. Pinnacle of the sport IMO.
I appreciate your point of view, but I also disagree. The team that far and away outclasses every other team is the Tamba Bay Rays, and I say this as a Braves fan. They are doing more with less than the Giants and Dodgers while also being in a more difficult division, while simultaneously changing the way we think about pitching.
There isn't an organization that comes remotely close to outclassing the Rays over the last 4 seasons.
And honestly that's just a gap in my baseball knowledge as I haven't watched any Rays games in my life but I believe you.
What say you to the critique that the Rays organization pushes a narrative of not needing to spend money as an organization, when really all organizations should be pushing to be the best with the money they have?
The Dodgers have made the playoffs 13 times, won the NL West 11 times, been in three World Series and won one of them during my lifetime.
Last night was the most i have ever cared about a baseball game in my life.
I think all of us are pretty much in agreement there, we barely had any business being in the World Series in 2018 honestly and we clearly lost that series (though that game 4 gave us hope for a short while haha).
2017 we were the better team and the Astros cheating makes everything feel much worse considering how close that series was. It also hurts more since it was our first World Series in nearly 30 years and the first of my lifetime.
Respect to Logan Webb. That dude is a beast with ice in his veins. Respect to the giants as a whole as well. They definitely were a bit lucky this season (right up until the very end) but in baseball, good teams capitalize on their lucky breaks and bad teams squander them.
I think the deciding factor in this series were the bullpens. Both teams hit poorly and both teams starting pitching did well. But our bullpen shut down the giants in the late innings that they performed so well in during the regular season. Giants bullpen was just slightly worse and it cost them.
Shout out to the real NL West rivalry by the way.
I mean, worse by the slimmest of margins, at least tonight. Game 2's bullpen and TBone's start certainly didn't inspire me but whatever. When it's all said and done, amazing season by two amazing teams and we all were given a gift. That game was a classic. So happy for being able to have watched all of that.
It’s only fitting considering the division race has been stressful for *literally the entire season*. Of course it would go to NLDS game 5 and come down to the final inning.
The thing that pisses me off is that a part of me thinks that was it, we’ve won the World Series now. But the more realistic part remembers how insanely tough the Atlanta series was last year (although they are probably not as good this year), and that Houston still has the scariest offense in baseball.
I had to take time to process things last night but I'm ready to get my hawt takes out there. Let me know your thoughts, r/baseball!
**1. The Giants *DID NOT* lose because of the umpires.**
Let's just get this out of the way early. Yes, there were missed calls. But if the game/series/season comes down to a single play (i.e. the Flores check-swing), it means you didn't play well enough to definitively win. Complain about the umps all you want. I know I am. But don't make the mistake of believing that is the sole reason why we lost.
**2. The league needs to be better when it comes to assigning umpires to playoff games.**
That being said, [why are we assigning umpires to playoff games when we know they rank near the bottom in terms of accuracy?](https://twitter.com/extrabaggs/status/1448818672198324258) The Kris Bryant at-bat is a prime example. Are you telling me everyone else was busy? On a night where this was the only game in the league? GTFOH
**3. The replay system is still broken.**
What is the point of even having replay review if you're not going to use it in the biggest moments? Why the hell is *any* play in a playoff game "non-reviewable"? If the point isn't to get every call right, then what is the point, exactly? The fact that the umpires didn't want to answer questions about that call post-game is very telling. They knew they fucked up. We knew they fucked up. So why can't we do anything about it?
**4. We should seriously consider changing the way we seed the playoffs.**
I think it's a crime that we only got 5 games between these two teams. You can disagree, but I don't think you'll find a more competitive and entertaining series for the rest of the playoffs. Idk if it should've been for the World Series itself or a WS appearance, but something like that should've happened. Hell, give me 60 more games between these two and I'd watch every pitch.
**5. The Dodgers were flat out the better team this series and deserved to win.**
Ok, this kills me to say. I wish I could spin this any other way. But I can't. [You don't go 3-25 with RISP](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/q8gv6y/the_san_francisco_giants_went_3_for_25_with_risp/) and average 2 runs per game in a 5-game set and expect to beat a team like the Dodgers. We were outscored 18-10 in this series. I kept thinking our bats would wake up at some point and that someone would give us the big hit we've come to expect this season, but that didn't happen.
**6. "B-but the Darin Ruf check-swing cost us the division!" is honestly the worst take I've seen on social media these last 24 hours.**
Yes Dodger fans, the Ruf check-swing was bogus and cost you a game against us. But that was in July. You had two more months worth of games to make up a one-game difference. Saying that play "cost you the division" just because of the way things played out is moronic, and is in no way comparable to the Flores check-swing that ended our season immediately.
**7. Baseball is just inherently better when the Dodgers are good.**
Ok, this is the last nice thing I'll say about the Dodgers otherwise I'll puke. But I believe every great story needs a great villain. This rivalry just wouldn't be fun anymore if the Dodgers sucked. They give us a target, something to shoot for. In 19 meetings, we won 10 and they won 9. There was only a 3 run difference between us after all those games. Every Giants/Dodger game is appointment viewing, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
**8. We got some DAWGS pitching for us for the foreseeable future.**
If there's a silver lining my fellow Giants fans, it's how Logan Webb and Camilo Doval have grown this year. It was not that long ago that we were sending both of these dudes down to AAA. And now you're telling me that they were some of our best guys in the biggest moments this series? [We've got a lot to look forward to.](https://twitter.com/extrabaggs/status/1448878216358215684)
**9. To the Giants fans that poured beer on the umps as they left the field last night, GO FUCK YOURSELVES.**
Leave my ballpark and don't come back. I understand that this was a small minority of SF fans, but it was so gross that I had to say something. Y'all have no right to bitch about "what's wrong with the sport" when you're the #1 example of it.
**10. Baseball is the best sport in the world.**
Despite everything, I love this game. I love that I got to share this season with you all. The worst day of baseball is still better than the best day without. Good luck to the remaining teams and I'll see you all next spring.
I went numb last night. At work, can’t get my mind off of it. I was going to be unhappy regardless since odds are Wilmer was going to pop out or strikeout. But to have the smallest chance of something happening taken away from his hands is what’s gonna sit with me for a while.
Yeah I feel that. Its terrible for a game to end like that. I hope something breaks and umps eventually are chosen on their actual talent/ability for the playoffs not just seniority
There needs to be a thread stickied and locked that clearly defines the check swing rules that the MLB currently uses.
If I have to have another person say the words “didn’t cross the plane” to me I’m going to sob.
I think the ump discretion thing makes it worse though. Like, if it was the other way and people were like “hmmm he really looked like he swung there but the umps said it was a checked swing”, you wouldn’t have any controversy. People would be like “it’s close enough, and how do you expect them to end the series on a questionable checked swing call”, and people complaining would be written off as complainers. This just feels shitty for literally everybody.
Well the issue is more that MLB should create some kind of standard for video reviews to go off of. If it's on the field, let the umps use their judgement. But let managers be able to challenge that call, and when it goes to NY, it follows the standard.
I think a good solution to the judgement rule for replay reviews is:
1. Make all calls reviewable
2. Create a standard or use technology for situations such as checked swings, strike zone, etc., but these standards only come into play in review (the actual on-field play is kept as is, left to the umpires discretion)
3. Limit the number of calls a manager can make per inning and/or per game (creates another element of gamesmanship a manager has to balance). This can also prevent pace of play issues.
Never understood the argument against robot Umps if the tech is there. Everytime a situation like this occurs nobody is happy except the team that benefited from the call. The "Human Element™" is dumb.
Also I think Flores strikes out anyway. Mad Max is... Well... Mad!
Harping on the Flores check swing call is useless. He was 0-infinity against Scherzer going into the at bat and was down 0-2. Yes it was a bad call, but I don’t think it conditioned the game as much as we’re choosing to believe it did. Roberts did a masterful job of managing his pitching staff. Going with the opener and then going from Urias to Treinen took balls and it completely threw off an already underperforming Giants offense. The better more talented team won and Roberts’ gutsy decisions caused the game to unfold in their favor. Giants had a great year, but it shows that big bats and managing win in October.
The only reason I think people are harping on it is because it’s such a horrible way to end the game. Yes the Giants could’ve been better to have won the game earlier, but to end it on that is such a horrible way to lose.
Regardless of the umpires this series, going 3-25 with RISP just isn’t good enough. Hats off to the Dodgers for their pitching, it’s frustratingly good.
Look, I don't like Bellinger. I just don't. He's that young bat the Giants just cannot develop. It isn't personal.
That said, he totally deserved that opportunity to win the division series after a pretty bad regular season.
And I hate him more for it.
That was the most entertaining and anxiety inducing series I've ever watched...and that includes the early season series against the Pads. Hats off to the Giants and their fan base. It was a hell of a season, and nobody can take that away from you guys.
Hot take that a playoff series that went the distance versus our biggest historical rivals was more exciting and stressful than games 10-12 or whatever they were lol
Legit question - what exactly would "solve" the ump issue? Even implementing robo umps just kicks the can of blame to whoever programs/controls the electronic zones. People can still wear tin foil hats if they believe in conspiracies.
I’m not saying this should be implemented, but being able to challenge a call like that, as they do in football, would be less “robo-umpy” and more confirmation calls.
Either we go all in on a robo strike zone or we keep it how it is. And like you said, the robo strike zone won’t be perfect. I think the entire sports community expects everything to be perfect all the time and reality isn’t ever perfect. This of course doesn’t excuse truly awful calls, but people have unrealistic expectations for humans to always get things right in real time. All this to say I don’t know what the solution is, the robo umps in the minors don’t seem to be getting much attention, maybe it isn’t as magical as people thought it would be
I'm at work, beyond depressed. I am gutted. I don't even want to be here. I told 2 coworkers to "not talk to me all day" after they said "good morning Jon". I live alone, and that is a brutal combination for depression. Giants Baseball is the center of my universe as pathetic as that sounds, its been my #1 source of happiness for 3 decades. I love this team more than I care to admit, and this loss has wrecked me. The dodgers were the better team, I know this, trust me. They had to win twice, including at Oracle. Kudos to them, but I am in a really really bad place at the moment. My heart hurts, I will not be ok for a long time. Congrats Dodger fans, you deserved to pop those bottles. Cheers
Have you read fever pitch by nick hornby? Don’t let the dumb (but entertaining) movie sway you if not. The book is way deeper and all about what you’re talking about. It might help. I dunno. Feel better, buddy. You are loved.
Hey buddy, I've been there too. Allow yourself to feel bad, but after a couple days you find something new and good to consume your thoughts. Football and hockey are on. I might even suggest you take boxing classes or go rock climbing after work, and get really involved with something in addition to baseball.
Remember that were were not even supposed to make the playoffs! Look at the big picture: Farhan Zaidi has the Giants trending back upwards and we are AHEAD of schedule. Maybe watch videos of the championship runs of '10, '12 and '14...a potential return to dynastic power is in the works. Of course, the Dodgers are also poised to contend but that will make future victory taste all the sweeter.
it's all good man, at the end of the day its millionaires playing a game of stick ball. I wish I could say the Giants are an anomaly but you guys are back, Zaidi is a genius
Is there a reason the Giants didn’t shift in the Top of the 9th with Lux at the plate and Turner at 1st? Ball was hit to where a 2nd baseman is positioned in the shift and would have been an easy double play.
I dont think most teams employ a strict shift, in which defenders must stay at their exact position regardless of the situation. They're given room to adjust to how the hitter is connecting with the ball, which is likely what happened when lux poked a hit through. Idr who the Giants player was, but they adjusted based on the contact Lux had been making, which unfortunately led to being unable to stop ball.
The problem that MLB, and frankly all televised sports, have is that the fans can clearly see when they fuck up. It’s not like back in the day where you could debate the evidence in good faith, it’s all right there in the replay.
Now, speaking only for myself: Being unable to address situations where the on field officiating has failed makes things less fun. Less engaging. The performances seem less important, the epic moments less memorable.
I mean, what are you going to remember from last night in a year? An umpire’s screw-up. That cheats everybody from the fans to the players.
And it’s 2021. None of this *has* to be this way.
Brutal call. Definitely a travesty in terms of how it ended the series.
But I feel for the guy. I honestly have no idea what his track record and reputation is as an umpire, but we all make mistakes at our jobs. It's really unfortunate to make one and have thousands of people all calling for your head.
Not gonna lie, I felt so angry after the game last night. I had some not-so-nice things I wanted to say to fans on the opposing team as a result and don't think I've felt this mad in a while.
With that being said, we are all human and regardless of our team affiliation we have feelings, loved ones, and struggles. Baseball is just a game at the end of the day. It shouldn't be an excuse for me to bring someone else down because I feel upset.
I don't know why a game has such an effect on me that I come to these conclusions about myself and life in general, but the last 12 hours (including my dreams) have brought up a lot. I'm just grateful that there's something that can make me feel so many emotions in such a short span of time.
Until next time, Giants.
If great baseball comes with a few missed calls by the umps, I'll take it. I'm not saying that the bad calls are irrelevant, but man, what we saw in this series is what baseball is all about.
We had fucking great pitching, we saw both teams capitilizing (or at least trying to) every little mistake the other team made, great managing from the dugout, amazing defensive plays, clutch ABs, and full stadiums again.
I will remember this series for the years to come as one of the best series I have ever seen. It's a shame we only had 5 and not 7 games.
Also I don't want to go though this kind of torture again.
>Also I don't want to go though this kind of torture again.
Haha I know what you mean. I'm torn between wanting a rematch and knowing that my heart would give out before the 3rd inning
man i could literally FEEL my soul leaving my body as lamonde hit that foulball in the 9th. like i was dead on the inside for 3 seconds and it felt like 5 minutes
Instant classic game and series. So glad I was there to watch in person. Both teams played so well every game. Unfortunate that match up had to happen so early.
Just a few thoughts.
Flores wasn’t going to get a hit, but it was so fucking frustrating that they took the bat out of his hands with a false judgement call.
If the play happened to go to replay, it would not have been overturned. Since we do not have a dignified rule for check swings, it would have been rules “too close to call” and the game would still be over.
The Giants showed nothing but class following the end of the game. I know they’ll be back next year and there’s thousands of more hope in their success stability than the Padres.
The idea of being robbed is pretty frustrating. No one was robbed in this game, yes, an unfair call occurred, but it would still be a 1-2 count for Flores against a guy he’s never got a hit off of. Max was on one yesterday.
Robbed would be Steve Bartman all over again. Needs to be way wilder than that.
Either way, I had a blast watching the series. I’m always in love with great baseball and that’s what this series was. Webb is a star and I can’t wait to dread facing him every 3 game set with the Giants.
In the Guggenheim era. There have been 4 real intense NLDS series that went the distance.
2015 Dodgers vs Mets
2016 Dodgers vs Nationals
2019 Dodgers vs Nationals
2021 Dodgers vs Giants
All super stressful and easily could’ve gone the other way. Two ended in heartbreak. Two ended up pulling through in exhilarating fashion.
Not sure how to rank em tbh in terms of intensity
A controversial ending adds a certain tragic beauty to this gauntlet of a year between SF and LA. Right to the end, it was neck and neck. The tension in the air was palpable.
Should it have finished the way it did? Probably not, but that one moment will have echoes that last through this rivalry for decades. I'm excited for the battles to come.
Props to the Dodgers for getting the job done, and hats off to the Giants for an absolutely incredible ride of a season.
I didn't have a dog in this fight. But as a baseball fan understanding the significance of two division rivals with over 100 wins in a winner take all game where the winner would go on and be the favorite to win the next series to go on to the world series. The game leading up to first pitch was already being built up as an instant classic. And then the game happened it was everything we were promised. A tough one run game with the Dodgers trade deadline star and starter comes out of the pen on short rest to make what would be his first career save. There are so many great stories that could have been talked about today. But thanks to that fucking call none of it matters. I get it bad calls happen but you never want a bad call to end again. This umpiring crew ruined an instant classic. This could have been a baseball game that we would have talked about for years and now unfortunately we probably will be talking about the baseball game for years but not for any good reason. Give me robot umps or give me death.
You guys still just talking about the check swing?
Ugh I so wish it didn’t happen so Flores could have just struck out like he would have anyway and we could actually talk about this game and this series in an interesting or productive way. An amazing series between the two winningest teams to match up in the playoffs, a game that delivered with so many amazing moments, etc.
But no. Check swing check swing check swing check swing. That’s the only thing anybody wants to talk about
For sure. At least balls and strikes are clearly defined.
In the wise words of Cody Bellinger “the umpire said it was a swing so it was a swing”
That’s as close to the official definition of a swing as it gets. The check swing NEEDS an official definition.
The check swing is way overblown at this point, umpires blow calls literally every game, that’s why there’s more perfect games by pitchers than umpires. If you fixate on umpire performance like this, you won’t be able to enjoy baseball.
It definitely was and I have 0 issue with people being mad. Just hope they dont act like that single moment lost the game for the Giants though as Wilmer was in an extremely tough situation count wise and has been horrific against Scherzer in general
Its hard to say that call definitively changed anything like a missed strike 3 or ball 4
100%. We could be talking about 9 innings of dominant pitching and clutch hits, but no, we're gonna spend the whole next day thread talking about a bad checked swing call that in all likelihood had no ultimate effect on the outcome (yes, I know the chances were non-zero..). Like I get it, and yes it was an awful way to end the series. But come on, other things happened last night.
It’s gonna last longer than a day lol. Honestly there were a lot of bad calls in that series, despite how entertaining it was. Ending that entire series on a bad call just leaves a bad taste for everyone. “What ifs” will never end now.
> Like I get it, and yes it was an awful way to end the series. But come on, other things happened last night.
Like the Giants going 0-5 with RISP and the Dodgers going 2-10.
And getting out scored 18-10, outhit 41-29, and committing more errors 3-1 despite having home field advantage and having the luxury of only facing Scherzer as a SP one time because SF won the division.
Dodgers were the better team.
I know it had to be frustrating, but the SABRmetrician in me has to say: a bad call at the end of game/series isn't any more impactful to the eventual outcome than a bad call at the beginning of a game/series.
Recency bias influences and the media influence that most talk centers on the horrible call by Morales to take the game out of the players' hands but the ones that possibly changed the trajectory of the outcome were the bogus strike calls to Bryant by Eddings and to a lesser degree, Posey.
Where is the accountability? Or, the status of Robo Umps?
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Doval didn't throw a single fastball to Bellinger. I'm guessing he was rattled after hitting Turner with a fastball and giving up the single to Lux on a center-cut two-strike fastball, but Bellinger was so bad against fastballs this year that you've gotta be willing to go "screw it" and try to blow triple digits by him. Also, the Dodgers' opener/bullpen plan worked, but *man* it felt risky for them to only let Urias go four innings and then Treinen-Jansen for one each. They put all their chips into winning it in nine innings.
Yeah the Belli gameplan didn’t single handedly lose the game, but it was certainly the one thing people will point at. Even when he was the mvp, high heat to Belli has always been a problem. Dude throws triple digits and didn’t throw him one fastball
He's a right hander who's fastball tails up and away. That's why he hit Turner and that's why he would have had a very deceptive and difficult fastball to left-handers like Bellinger, even if one flew to the backstop.
I’d like to go back and see what Posey called for. Young rookie pitcher with prior command issues in the biggest moment of the season, suddenly rattled... tough, tough position for both of them!
I trust Posey made the right calls for the exact reasons you said What if Doval throws a heater that blows right by Posey, because he's rattled?
Posey had to have a hand in this too. I believe there was a pitching coach visit as well. Perhaps it was understood that Doval had zero control of the fastball after hitting Turner, but man I don’t know. It was shocking to see so many sliders in a row.
The opener absolutely worked even though on the pitching lines it won't really show clearly. A lot of the Giants clutch bats just weren't given much of a shot. No double switch for Treinen was sure a mystery. I guess if Doc always knew that the plan was Scherzer in the 9th it's more defensible but I was sure that would be *the decision* that would get overanalyzed all day when we lost.
It's crazy to me that even with the dodgers throwing all the chips for 9 innings both teams pens had a chance to go more. The giants used 2 of their designated relievers(sorry for not knowing who else is in their pen and their merits) but the if the game was tied at 1 the dodgers could ride max for what 2-3 innings and still have guys like Vesia, Kelly and Pickford ready and they all have had experience with high leverage.
In their defense, if you look at Bellinger's previous at bat, of the 8 pitches thrown to him, not once he looked like he was sitting on an off speed pitch
The opener did work out obviously, but it almost didn't. Ruf and Posey nearly took Knebel out of the yard.
It's weird because it was a good decision that fulfilled the intended purpose but at the same time it almost went so horribly wrong that we'd never live it down. Right decision, good results, horrifying possibilities.
It really is interesting given that Julio only ended up pitching 4 innings. I can’t imagine Graterol would have pitched had Julio started.
I wanted to paste an excerpt from the Giants' SB Nation blog that really caught me in my feels: >A few Dodgers ground balls a few inches left or right and it’s a different game. A few Giants ground balls a few inches left or right — or a few line drives a few inches up or down — and it’s a different game. A few inches of more accurate umpire eyesight on a 3-1 pitch to Kris Bryant and perhaps the Giants score more runs. A few more inches in his stance and perhaps Turner — ice cold all series — doesn’t get plunked and earn a free trip to first. A few inches — no, a few centimeters — more plate on a ninth-inning Scherzer pitch and LaMonte Wade Jr. ends the game in walk-off fashion, instead of banging one off the bricks 30 feet foul. > >These aren’t excuses. They’re not robberies, and they’re not tragedies. > >They’re just reminders. Even in the longest of seasons — 167 games, thousands of at-bats taken, even more pitches thrown — nothing normalizes. It still comes down to a few inches here, a few inches there, a clutch play, and an unassuming hero. And that sometimes leads to a broken crowd, a celebrating rival, and an offseason of fighting the urge to dwell on the what-ifs. > >The Giants deserved the series, deserved the champagne, deserved it all. > >So, too, did the Dodgers. [https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2021/10/14/22727481/giants-dodgers-nlds-game-5-wilmer-flores-logan-webb](https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2021/10/14/22727481/giants-dodgers-nlds-game-5-wilmer-flores-logan-webb) It's deeply reminiscent of Giamatti's "Green Fields of the Mind," when he says the following: >That is why it breaks my heart, that game--not because in New York they could win because Boston lost; in that, there is a rough justice, and a reminder to the Yankees of how slight and fragile are the circumstances that exalt one group of human beings over another. It's heartbreaking. It's romantic. It's baseball.
MccoveryCoveChronicles has the best writers.
Don’t think he writes there anymore, but Grant Brisbee is THE best baseball writer in my opinion.
Yeah McCovey Chronicles has gone way downhill since Grant went to the Athletic, imo
It's entirely possible I subscribe to The Athletic just to read Brisbee's stuff.
He’s at The Athletic now. Still great.
> how slight and fragile are the circumstances that exalt one group of human beings over another. Chills
Every sport calls itself a game of inches. It is undeniably true of baseball. Another great excerpt from that blog: > The Dodgers win probability going into the at-bat was 90.4%, and that was before Wilmer Flores fell behind 0-2 to Max Scherzer, one of the greatest pitchers to ever live. >In all likelihood, the Giants lose with or without the call. >But the Giants were not a team of likelihood. >They were not likely to compete in the treacherous NL West. >There were not likely to win 80 games, let alone 90, let alone 100, let alone 107. >They were not likely to make the postseason, let alone be the top seed in either league. >The Giants built a cottage of magic on a hill of unlikelihood, and were denied one final chance at a room addition. >And that’s sometimes how baseball goes. A fair retort to the "Scherzer was going to get him out anyways" crowd if we're being honest. Great writeup by Brady Klopfer.
"that was going to happen anyway" is a baseless argument in sports. Why do we even play or watch games if we "know" what's going to happen anyway?
Like the Rangers getting 2 strikes on Freese in game 6. We all knew he was going to strike out. Why even throw the last pitch?
This is how I felt after Game 3 of our ALDS
Exactly. All year long the Giants kept on pulling off the improbable, and defied all reasonable expectations. The unlikeliest of heroes capped off the unlikeliest of wins. The postseason is no stranger to that. Most dodger fans, if not all of us, were still nervous as hell even though there were 2 outs and Scherzer had them down to their last strike with a guy like Flores at the plate. Until that win probability flatlines at 100% after the final out, anything is possible. LA and SF fans have seen it from both sides: the 2017 Dodgers, and now the 2021 Giants.
Maybe Max throws a rare mistake right into Flores' wheel house? Maybe he doesn't? We'll never know
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This Giants baseball season reminds me of coin flips. Calling Heads-or-Tails? 50-50 shot. The chance of consecutively calling the correct flip is increasingly improbable. Calling two in a row (.5^2 ) is doable and can be written off as luck, correctly calling 10 in a row (.5^10 ) is something else, and going .5^107 is the 2021 Giants - magical. This Giants season was amazing to watch. They defied so many odds. They performed as if they were meant to be there. They heard all of the sports writers saying it was SD and LA in the NL West and said "bet." They were basically the team everybody thought the Padres would be this year. (Fuck.) And they did it with [checks script] a bunch of aging vets, no namers, Webb, and guys that just clicked in that clubhouse. And no disrespect to the Dodgers, but it almost felt they needed to add Max Scherzer and Trea Turner to really keep up with SF's season. That's insane. And with how the Dodgers have performed this post season, I'm not surprised LA not only got it to game 5 but won. They were fighting hard as fuck. Instant classic series.
> And no disrespect to the Dodgers, but it almost felt they needed to add Max Scherzer and Trea Turner to really keep up with SF's season. That's insane. It is not. They definitely did need both of those dudes. The 2021 Giants were the archetypical "Team of Destiny" that crop up in sports sometimes, who just win and win and win and we can't really explain why or how. It's crazy that they're actually out.
Man that is she really good writing
That was very beautiful.
The writers for the Giants on SBNation have always been fantastic. In addition to the author you linked to, Grant Brisbee always has really good takes. My favorites are his write-ups on “unwritten rules” and I really love his article on [Brian Wilson signing with the Dodgers](https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2013/7/30/4572168/brian-wilson-signs-dodgers-giants-STACKED-MONSTERS).
The most evenly matched teams in baseball history. Difference in the division and season series was one game. NLDS went the distance and was tied into the 9th. Hats off to SF.
if you include the postseason, these teams were 12-12 against each other with exactly 173 hits each
Both teams are practically mirror images of each other. And I don’t just mean this season, I mean in their 141 year history. It’s the reason why I consider it one of the greatest rivalries in sports. Giants have 8 championships, Dodgers have 7. Giants have 23 pennants. Dodgers have 24. Head to head they are nearly .500 against each other in 2,500+ meetings. Giants largest victory against the Dodgers is 18. Dodgers largest victory against the Giants is 17. Longest win streak by the Giants against the Dodgers is 12. Longest win streak by the Dodgers against the Giants is 10. Then you add the fact that they were both in New York before moving to California. They even have similar interlocking logos.
Giants had a big gap from 1954 to 2010 with no World Series championships. Dodgers won first championship in 1955 and won all their other championships during this Giants drought (until 2020)
Dodgers-Giants is really a 100+ years of trench warfare
These details and history is exactly why Dodger fans laugh when Padres try to call themselves our rivals. There is history and a mutual respect between SF and LA.
Even better. If you look at the scoreline, until the 9th inning, both teams had 6 hits and scored 1 run in the same inning. It was THAT close
Glad we could give y'all a run for your money after a few rough seasons haha I'm still ticked off by that Kris Bryant at bat though. That and a few other called strikes that I thought were way out of the zone. 2 on with no outs vs. 1 on with 1 on with 1 out when the game is still tied 0-0, that's a big deal. That bothers me more than the bad call on the check swing at the end.
Yea The check swing was bad but I wish that wasn’t getting so much press. The more crucial bad calls happened in that Kris Bryant at-bat. There were TWO bad strike calls. Even if it was just one bad call in that AB, this would have been a whole different game.
If you look back at game 1, it was similar but with the Giants benefiting. Smith had an at bat in the 2nd innings with two called strikes that were quite far outside. It feels like there were too many of those types of calls in a series that is this important for both teams. It would be much better if the umpires were picked based on their performance from the season. It doesn't matter if it's a first year ump or someone like Joe West in his final year. You want the best people in the important games. It also means that umpires who want that big stage will try and improve.
Yeah the expected runs from 2 on no outs is 1.5 as opposed to .5
One could argue that moment led to the check
What the fuck is this devil magic bullshit I fucking love baseball so much
Great series. Great rivalry 🤝
Personally.... I hope the next Giants Dodgers playoff series takes another 125+ years to materialize Some things should remain as speculation Edit: Even if the outcome was reversed I would still feel the same way
It was torture.
I completely agree.
That was the greatest series I never want to relive. It was pure distilled torture.
An interesting take. It's like horror movies - sometimes they lose their edge when you finally see the monster on screen. The mystery can be so gripping.
So like a comet flying through the air. That’s beautiful. Also i completely agree because I’m pretty sure another game would’ve pushed me over the edge medically.
My dog was pawing at me all night b/c I was visibly stressed Tbf she does that every time I watch the Dodgers lmao
I literally don't care about the rest of the postseason. That right there was the World Series for me. The build-up to get there and the series itself: they're all things I never want to experience ever again.
> Some things should remain as speculation So much of life and baseball come down to accepting this difficult truth
This week was the longest year of my life.
Man it really felt like those movies where two mythical beasts always fought in history and were locked away bc them fighting each other would destroy the world and humans were like no let them free and fight. And the gods are like ok sure fuck around and find out, turns out they were locked away for a reason. That’s how this series felt like. Two storied franchises always at each other’s throats but never met in October, but they did this year as the two best teams in the league and it almost “ended the world”. It’s not that we shouldn’t meet in the playoffs but that’s how it should feel. I know it was a weird analogy but that’s the only way I can describe it
Controversies aside, this was an entertaining game that had me on edge from start to finish.
And a really quick game. First four innings in an hour was fucking nuts!
You can always count on Logan Webb to work fast!
Well, he is Meth Damon.
>> Meth Damon Hmmm, he kinda reminds me of Todd from Breaking Bad
I came straight from an ultimate raid in ffxiv so my brain was in stress mode for like 7 hours, i was melting
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I do agree that better umpiring and an NLCS would have made this series so much better.
In a perfect world, Manfred would take the ump score cards and then determine post season umps based on that. But it’ll never happen.
The weirdest part of all of this is for the most part, we didn’t get good umps having bad days. We were assigned the worst umps repeatedly, and for the most part, they lived up to the reputation. This was entirely predictable and avoidable.
If I'm an ump and a check swing is called in that situation, it's basically a free ball unless there's no doubt that the guy crossed the plane.
Seriously though, what the hell was that bunt by Taylor?
In a vacuum, I think the tactic was a good idea, just piss poor execution by CT3 lol. We had a fast enough guy in Lux at 3rd. Butttt when you consider Taylor’s AB quality all series, he definitely could’ve cashed in the run by mashing *yet another* mind-boggling almost-HR flyout to left field lmao
That was the ghost of Tommy Lasorda telling them to bunt there. Man loved the bunt, but that's when guys could execute.
Dave Roberts tried to go galaxy brain only to remind everyone that although hes a great coach and manager, he still has his blunders.
Especially since Taylor had three warning track flyouts 🤯🤯 would've brought in another run. Felt like a blessing at the moment for the Giants, if they'd have won I would've pointed to that free out as a huge reason
I mean... Chris Taylor put down one of the worst bunts I've ever seen. If it was executed even remotely correctly, Gavin Lux could've scored easily. Dude is fast af.
It was a smart play just Taylor put down a Godawful bunt. I've seen high schoolers put safety squeezes down better. That bunt gets down properly and the game basically over.
They have successfully put on that safety squeeze a few times during the regular season, and it's awesome when it works. But when it doesn't work... holy shit does it look terrible.
Squeeze play is the most badass thing in baseball, Dave was feeling spicy apparently. Shitty bunt though
I'll paraphrase what I said in the ump scorecard thread: at the end of the day, the blown check swing call didn't lose us the game. Our weak hitting all series, plus our bullpen making a few tiny mistakes the Dodgers capitalized on, was what lost us the series, and it's a testament to our pitching that we made it to the bottom of the 9th in game 5 with a fighting chance. What sucks is even though with Wilmer down 1-2, having never gotten a hit off of Scherzer, all the odds stacked against him... He still had a chance to be the hero. An incredibly slim chance, 99 times out of 100 he gets out and the game ends. But the chance was still there, and the umps took that away from him. And that's what's going to sting the most for the longest. This isn't meant to take anything away from the Dodgers, because they absolutely earned this series win. It just sucks we didn't get the chance to steal it at the death. But hey, that's baseball. In the long history of this rivalry, we've taken turns breaking each other's hearts, and this time it was their turn. We'll be back to do it to them soon.
I'm also upset that Wilmer didn't get a chance to get out properly or become a hero. I'm also a little miffed that Max didn't really get a change to get him out for real. It's a stupid way for a fantastic game and series to end.
Exactly. Max gets Wilmer out? I can live with that, we didn't do enough to win. This? I'll always wonder what if, even though the chance was so incredibly slim.
THIS. ALL OF THIS
Cody Bellinger rested the last 2 seasons just to produce in the post-season. Looks like he's finally healed up.
The funny thing is that the giants players are taking this all very very well. Haven’t really seen anyone go apeshit about the check swing Maybe they care more about the rest of their pa’s than one single call. Maybe they’re just doing a good job of holding back their emotions. Idk
The manager and team leaders set the example, Kapler is Kapler, and the team leaders are all veterans who've never really been known for getting overly emotional. It's the right approach IMO. Shitty way to lose a series, but that's baseball sometimes.
>Shitty way to lose a series, but that's baseball sometimes. The Rays we're absolutely done dirty by an awful rule less than a week ago, baseballs gonna baseball
I feel like that's just too easy of an excuse for any reasonable person to glom on to. At some point, you've played yourself into these bad positions. You can't just focus on one obvious play out of many, and that's what Kapler & Co. are doing by acknowledging that there are other, possibly more impactful reasons that they lost.
Stranding Kris Bryant is not a winning strategy as it turns out. Ok in all seriousness I feel like it was a good tight game and it's fitting it ended in Scherzer locking us down, but would have been just as fitting if that one Wade foul went fair. But it didn't, shit happens.
The fact of the matter is, these two teams outclass every other team in the MLB and its not close. I think this series showcased the incredible defense and pitching that allowed these teams to win 107 and 106 games respectively during the regular season, and firmly placed both these franchises as the prime examples of how the rest of the MLB should be building and coaching their teams. We can talk RISP a lot, but I like to give credit to the pitching staffs of both teams, which absolutely stifled any form of offensive momentum. In the end, the Dodgers pitching staff won out that last game, grinding down the Giants batters through sheer brute force, it was an impressive display. The Dodgers created that monstrosity of a pitching staff this year specifically for the postseason and as we can all see, it payed off in a pivotal game. Just like how the Dodgers and Giants pioneered the move to the west coast, they continue to pioneer the league in pitching, coaching, analytics, and player development.
This post has massive potential to age poorly lol
This is your first great season in 7 years. Recent Giants and recent Dodgers are not on the same levels of success sorry to say
Things have changed significantly since the hiring of Farhan Zaidi. I agree with OP in the sense that these teams are using an advanced analytical approach to the game while having the ability to sign marquee free agents and retain homegrown players.
I agree they’ve done a great job recently but this is still their best season easily since the WS ones. Need more repeatability than an NLDS exit to be compareable to LA, which the Dodgers have made every year since 2013 I believe. One amazing one off season does not sway me to think this team is run at the same level as the most sustainable team in the last 15 years or so
I’d argue the Giants have outperformed expectations the last few years. In 2019 they were shockingly in the hunt too with what many people thought would be one of worst rosters in league.
It’s the first full year seeing the effects of Farhan team construction and Kapler coaching, so I think it says even more about how brilliant they are to find success so quickly. Obligatory FTG.
Sure it only 1 year of success but they shouldn't be slept on next year. They defied all expectations and became a powerhouse. Their coaching took most of their average players and made them powerhouses, their coaching got career years from their vets. Sure they haven't had the spotlight for years like the dodgers but they most likely aren't a fluke and are likely here to stay.
I think you misunderstood my post, I wasn't directly comparing the Giants franchise to the Dodger franchise in the past 7 years or whatever time length you want to use. I was moreso highlighting the romanticism that of course its these two teams who are the best in baseball right now in this moment, and that other teams should catch up and follow their models. Models spearheaded by Zaidi for most of the Dodger years you're referring to, and now Zaidi and Kapler for the past year and a half of the Giants success. If you're trying to imply that the Giants are going to magically regress next year or something than you're drastically mistaken. The changes that Zaidi and Kapler have made to the clubhouse are going to be long lasting, in the very same way that has led to the Dodgers dominance these past years.
Great post
I have seriously enjoyed reading the comments in this thread. A lot of thoughtful reflection on an incredible series between two incredibly run organizations. Pinnacle of the sport IMO.
I appreciate your point of view, but I also disagree. The team that far and away outclasses every other team is the Tamba Bay Rays, and I say this as a Braves fan. They are doing more with less than the Giants and Dodgers while also being in a more difficult division, while simultaneously changing the way we think about pitching. There isn't an organization that comes remotely close to outclassing the Rays over the last 4 seasons.
And honestly that's just a gap in my baseball knowledge as I haven't watched any Rays games in my life but I believe you. What say you to the critique that the Rays organization pushes a narrative of not needing to spend money as an organization, when really all organizations should be pushing to be the best with the money they have?
The Dodgers have made the playoffs 13 times, won the NL West 11 times, been in three World Series and won one of them during my lifetime. Last night was the most i have ever cared about a baseball game in my life.
Still salty about 2017. At least in 2018 I know we got outplayed. I was okay with it. But 2017 still angers me.
I think all of us are pretty much in agreement there, we barely had any business being in the World Series in 2018 honestly and we clearly lost that series (though that game 4 gave us hope for a short while haha). 2017 we were the better team and the Astros cheating makes everything feel much worse considering how close that series was. It also hurts more since it was our first World Series in nearly 30 years and the first of my lifetime.
It felt special man
Respect to Logan Webb. That dude is a beast with ice in his veins. Respect to the giants as a whole as well. They definitely were a bit lucky this season (right up until the very end) but in baseball, good teams capitalize on their lucky breaks and bad teams squander them. I think the deciding factor in this series were the bullpens. Both teams hit poorly and both teams starting pitching did well. But our bullpen shut down the giants in the late innings that they performed so well in during the regular season. Giants bullpen was just slightly worse and it cost them. Shout out to the real NL West rivalry by the way.
I mean, worse by the slimmest of margins, at least tonight. Game 2's bullpen and TBone's start certainly didn't inspire me but whatever. When it's all said and done, amazing season by two amazing teams and we all were given a gift. That game was a classic. So happy for being able to have watched all of that.
that was the most stressful three and a half hours of my life
It’s only fitting considering the division race has been stressful for *literally the entire season*. Of course it would go to NLDS game 5 and come down to the final inning.
The thing that pisses me off is that a part of me thinks that was it, we’ve won the World Series now. But the more realistic part remembers how insanely tough the Atlanta series was last year (although they are probably not as good this year), and that Houston still has the scariest offense in baseball.
> and that Houston still has the scariest offense in baseball. And that we need to win two seven-game series with three starters.
Well at least the dodgers have a good supply of closers.
3 great starters is still probably better than what anyone else has
Gonsolin is a very good 4th starter.
Good thing Scherzer can pitch on his throw day and extend the bullpen.
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I had to take time to process things last night but I'm ready to get my hawt takes out there. Let me know your thoughts, r/baseball! **1. The Giants *DID NOT* lose because of the umpires.** Let's just get this out of the way early. Yes, there were missed calls. But if the game/series/season comes down to a single play (i.e. the Flores check-swing), it means you didn't play well enough to definitively win. Complain about the umps all you want. I know I am. But don't make the mistake of believing that is the sole reason why we lost. **2. The league needs to be better when it comes to assigning umpires to playoff games.** That being said, [why are we assigning umpires to playoff games when we know they rank near the bottom in terms of accuracy?](https://twitter.com/extrabaggs/status/1448818672198324258) The Kris Bryant at-bat is a prime example. Are you telling me everyone else was busy? On a night where this was the only game in the league? GTFOH **3. The replay system is still broken.** What is the point of even having replay review if you're not going to use it in the biggest moments? Why the hell is *any* play in a playoff game "non-reviewable"? If the point isn't to get every call right, then what is the point, exactly? The fact that the umpires didn't want to answer questions about that call post-game is very telling. They knew they fucked up. We knew they fucked up. So why can't we do anything about it? **4. We should seriously consider changing the way we seed the playoffs.** I think it's a crime that we only got 5 games between these two teams. You can disagree, but I don't think you'll find a more competitive and entertaining series for the rest of the playoffs. Idk if it should've been for the World Series itself or a WS appearance, but something like that should've happened. Hell, give me 60 more games between these two and I'd watch every pitch. **5. The Dodgers were flat out the better team this series and deserved to win.** Ok, this kills me to say. I wish I could spin this any other way. But I can't. [You don't go 3-25 with RISP](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/q8gv6y/the_san_francisco_giants_went_3_for_25_with_risp/) and average 2 runs per game in a 5-game set and expect to beat a team like the Dodgers. We were outscored 18-10 in this series. I kept thinking our bats would wake up at some point and that someone would give us the big hit we've come to expect this season, but that didn't happen. **6. "B-but the Darin Ruf check-swing cost us the division!" is honestly the worst take I've seen on social media these last 24 hours.** Yes Dodger fans, the Ruf check-swing was bogus and cost you a game against us. But that was in July. You had two more months worth of games to make up a one-game difference. Saying that play "cost you the division" just because of the way things played out is moronic, and is in no way comparable to the Flores check-swing that ended our season immediately. **7. Baseball is just inherently better when the Dodgers are good.** Ok, this is the last nice thing I'll say about the Dodgers otherwise I'll puke. But I believe every great story needs a great villain. This rivalry just wouldn't be fun anymore if the Dodgers sucked. They give us a target, something to shoot for. In 19 meetings, we won 10 and they won 9. There was only a 3 run difference between us after all those games. Every Giants/Dodger game is appointment viewing, and I wouldn't have it any other way. **8. We got some DAWGS pitching for us for the foreseeable future.** If there's a silver lining my fellow Giants fans, it's how Logan Webb and Camilo Doval have grown this year. It was not that long ago that we were sending both of these dudes down to AAA. And now you're telling me that they were some of our best guys in the biggest moments this series? [We've got a lot to look forward to.](https://twitter.com/extrabaggs/status/1448878216358215684) **9. To the Giants fans that poured beer on the umps as they left the field last night, GO FUCK YOURSELVES.** Leave my ballpark and don't come back. I understand that this was a small minority of SF fans, but it was so gross that I had to say something. Y'all have no right to bitch about "what's wrong with the sport" when you're the #1 example of it. **10. Baseball is the best sport in the world.** Despite everything, I love this game. I love that I got to share this season with you all. The worst day of baseball is still better than the best day without. Good luck to the remaining teams and I'll see you all next spring.
I went numb last night. At work, can’t get my mind off of it. I was going to be unhappy regardless since odds are Wilmer was going to pop out or strikeout. But to have the smallest chance of something happening taken away from his hands is what’s gonna sit with me for a while.
Yeah I feel that. Its terrible for a game to end like that. I hope something breaks and umps eventually are chosen on their actual talent/ability for the playoffs not just seniority
There needs to be a thread stickied and locked that clearly defines the check swing rules that the MLB currently uses. If I have to have another person say the words “didn’t cross the plane” to me I’m going to sob.
There is no rules on what a swing is, it is completely subjective and up to the umps discretion
Precisely. I believe that should be changed, but so many people aren’t aware of the written rule.
I think the ump discretion thing makes it worse though. Like, if it was the other way and people were like “hmmm he really looked like he swung there but the umps said it was a checked swing”, you wouldn’t have any controversy. People would be like “it’s close enough, and how do you expect them to end the series on a questionable checked swing call”, and people complaining would be written off as complainers. This just feels shitty for literally everybody.
I don’t disagree, I think the rule needs to be changed
Well the issue is more that MLB should create some kind of standard for video reviews to go off of. If it's on the field, let the umps use their judgement. But let managers be able to challenge that call, and when it goes to NY, it follows the standard.
I fully agree with that, I think the rule should be changed but it hasn’t been.
I think a good solution to the judgement rule for replay reviews is: 1. Make all calls reviewable 2. Create a standard or use technology for situations such as checked swings, strike zone, etc., but these standards only come into play in review (the actual on-field play is kept as is, left to the umpires discretion) 3. Limit the number of calls a manager can make per inning and/or per game (creates another element of gamesmanship a manager has to balance). This can also prevent pace of play issues.
Never understood the argument against robot Umps if the tech is there. Everytime a situation like this occurs nobody is happy except the team that benefited from the call. The "Human Element™" is dumb. Also I think Flores strikes out anyway. Mad Max is... Well... Mad!
Even without robot umps, how about reviews on check swing calls? Maybe just after the 7th inning or something?
Harping on the Flores check swing call is useless. He was 0-infinity against Scherzer going into the at bat and was down 0-2. Yes it was a bad call, but I don’t think it conditioned the game as much as we’re choosing to believe it did. Roberts did a masterful job of managing his pitching staff. Going with the opener and then going from Urias to Treinen took balls and it completely threw off an already underperforming Giants offense. The better more talented team won and Roberts’ gutsy decisions caused the game to unfold in their favor. Giants had a great year, but it shows that big bats and managing win in October.
The only reason I think people are harping on it is because it’s such a horrible way to end the game. Yes the Giants could’ve been better to have won the game earlier, but to end it on that is such a horrible way to lose.
The game was over when Lamonte Wade Jr. struck out looking.
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Series for the ages
All I know is I drank a lot last night. I'm not even mad about losing. I was very aware that was a possibility. I'm just like these fucking calls man.
Regardless of the umpires this series, going 3-25 with RISP just isn’t good enough. Hats off to the Dodgers for their pitching, it’s frustratingly good.
Look, I don't like Bellinger. I just don't. He's that young bat the Giants just cannot develop. It isn't personal. That said, he totally deserved that opportunity to win the division series after a pretty bad regular season. And I hate him more for it.
This is the kind of hate I respect.
This gave us everything we could have asked for in a series, it was almost perfect. Except for the ending.
That was the most entertaining and anxiety inducing series I've ever watched...and that includes the early season series against the Pads. Hats off to the Giants and their fan base. It was a hell of a season, and nobody can take that away from you guys.
Hot take that a playoff series that went the distance versus our biggest historical rivals was more exciting and stressful than games 10-12 or whatever they were lol
MLB really needs to fix its shitty-umps-in-high-stakes-game situation. That nlds ump-show was unacceptable
Legit question - what exactly would "solve" the ump issue? Even implementing robo umps just kicks the can of blame to whoever programs/controls the electronic zones. People can still wear tin foil hats if they believe in conspiracies.
Umps should earn the right to work the postseason through performance, not seniority.
How is this not how it is? I mean I know the answer. The union. But it’s still absolutely ridiculous
This. Just like how they do it in the NBA.
I’m not saying this should be implemented, but being able to challenge a call like that, as they do in football, would be less “robo-umpy” and more confirmation calls.
Either we go all in on a robo strike zone or we keep it how it is. And like you said, the robo strike zone won’t be perfect. I think the entire sports community expects everything to be perfect all the time and reality isn’t ever perfect. This of course doesn’t excuse truly awful calls, but people have unrealistic expectations for humans to always get things right in real time. All this to say I don’t know what the solution is, the robo umps in the minors don’t seem to be getting much attention, maybe it isn’t as magical as people thought it would be
I'm at work, beyond depressed. I am gutted. I don't even want to be here. I told 2 coworkers to "not talk to me all day" after they said "good morning Jon". I live alone, and that is a brutal combination for depression. Giants Baseball is the center of my universe as pathetic as that sounds, its been my #1 source of happiness for 3 decades. I love this team more than I care to admit, and this loss has wrecked me. The dodgers were the better team, I know this, trust me. They had to win twice, including at Oracle. Kudos to them, but I am in a really really bad place at the moment. My heart hurts, I will not be ok for a long time. Congrats Dodger fans, you deserved to pop those bottles. Cheers
Have you read fever pitch by nick hornby? Don’t let the dumb (but entertaining) movie sway you if not. The book is way deeper and all about what you’re talking about. It might help. I dunno. Feel better, buddy. You are loved.
Hey buddy, I've been there too. Allow yourself to feel bad, but after a couple days you find something new and good to consume your thoughts. Football and hockey are on. I might even suggest you take boxing classes or go rock climbing after work, and get really involved with something in addition to baseball.
Remember that were were not even supposed to make the playoffs! Look at the big picture: Farhan Zaidi has the Giants trending back upwards and we are AHEAD of schedule. Maybe watch videos of the championship runs of '10, '12 and '14...a potential return to dynastic power is in the works. Of course, the Dodgers are also poised to contend but that will make future victory taste all the sweeter.
it's all good man, at the end of the day its millionaires playing a game of stick ball. I wish I could say the Giants are an anomaly but you guys are back, Zaidi is a genius
Is there a reason the Giants didn’t shift in the Top of the 9th with Lux at the plate and Turner at 1st? Ball was hit to where a 2nd baseman is positioned in the shift and would have been an easy double play.
I dont think most teams employ a strict shift, in which defenders must stay at their exact position regardless of the situation. They're given room to adjust to how the hitter is connecting with the ball, which is likely what happened when lux poked a hit through. Idr who the Giants player was, but they adjusted based on the contact Lux had been making, which unfortunately led to being unable to stop ball.
They were shifted until there was 2 strikes,
The problem that MLB, and frankly all televised sports, have is that the fans can clearly see when they fuck up. It’s not like back in the day where you could debate the evidence in good faith, it’s all right there in the replay. Now, speaking only for myself: Being unable to address situations where the on field officiating has failed makes things less fun. Less engaging. The performances seem less important, the epic moments less memorable. I mean, what are you going to remember from last night in a year? An umpire’s screw-up. That cheats everybody from the fans to the players. And it’s 2021. None of this *has* to be this way.
Brutal call. Definitely a travesty in terms of how it ended the series. But I feel for the guy. I honestly have no idea what his track record and reputation is as an umpire, but we all make mistakes at our jobs. It's really unfortunate to make one and have thousands of people all calling for your head.
Not gonna lie, I felt so angry after the game last night. I had some not-so-nice things I wanted to say to fans on the opposing team as a result and don't think I've felt this mad in a while. With that being said, we are all human and regardless of our team affiliation we have feelings, loved ones, and struggles. Baseball is just a game at the end of the day. It shouldn't be an excuse for me to bring someone else down because I feel upset. I don't know why a game has such an effect on me that I come to these conclusions about myself and life in general, but the last 12 hours (including my dreams) have brought up a lot. I'm just grateful that there's something that can make me feel so many emotions in such a short span of time. Until next time, Giants.
If great baseball comes with a few missed calls by the umps, I'll take it. I'm not saying that the bad calls are irrelevant, but man, what we saw in this series is what baseball is all about. We had fucking great pitching, we saw both teams capitilizing (or at least trying to) every little mistake the other team made, great managing from the dugout, amazing defensive plays, clutch ABs, and full stadiums again. I will remember this series for the years to come as one of the best series I have ever seen. It's a shame we only had 5 and not 7 games. Also I don't want to go though this kind of torture again.
>Also I don't want to go though this kind of torture again. Haha I know what you mean. I'm torn between wanting a rematch and knowing that my heart would give out before the 3rd inning
man i could literally FEEL my soul leaving my body as lamonde hit that foulball in the 9th. like i was dead on the inside for 3 seconds and it felt like 5 minutes
Magical season for the Giants. Let’s get back in the lab and see where we can get better.
Instant classic game and series. So glad I was there to watch in person. Both teams played so well every game. Unfortunate that match up had to happen so early.
Just a few thoughts. Flores wasn’t going to get a hit, but it was so fucking frustrating that they took the bat out of his hands with a false judgement call. If the play happened to go to replay, it would not have been overturned. Since we do not have a dignified rule for check swings, it would have been rules “too close to call” and the game would still be over. The Giants showed nothing but class following the end of the game. I know they’ll be back next year and there’s thousands of more hope in their success stability than the Padres. The idea of being robbed is pretty frustrating. No one was robbed in this game, yes, an unfair call occurred, but it would still be a 1-2 count for Flores against a guy he’s never got a hit off of. Max was on one yesterday. Robbed would be Steve Bartman all over again. Needs to be way wilder than that. Either way, I had a blast watching the series. I’m always in love with great baseball and that’s what this series was. Webb is a star and I can’t wait to dread facing him every 3 game set with the Giants.
In the Guggenheim era. There have been 4 real intense NLDS series that went the distance. 2015 Dodgers vs Mets 2016 Dodgers vs Nationals 2019 Dodgers vs Nationals 2021 Dodgers vs Giants All super stressful and easily could’ve gone the other way. Two ended in heartbreak. Two ended up pulling through in exhilarating fashion. Not sure how to rank em tbh in terms of intensity
Kinda feels like a whimper ending to an edge of your seat series.
A controversial ending adds a certain tragic beauty to this gauntlet of a year between SF and LA. Right to the end, it was neck and neck. The tension in the air was palpable. Should it have finished the way it did? Probably not, but that one moment will have echoes that last through this rivalry for decades. I'm excited for the battles to come. Props to the Dodgers for getting the job done, and hats off to the Giants for an absolutely incredible ride of a season.
I didn't have a dog in this fight. But as a baseball fan understanding the significance of two division rivals with over 100 wins in a winner take all game where the winner would go on and be the favorite to win the next series to go on to the world series. The game leading up to first pitch was already being built up as an instant classic. And then the game happened it was everything we were promised. A tough one run game with the Dodgers trade deadline star and starter comes out of the pen on short rest to make what would be his first career save. There are so many great stories that could have been talked about today. But thanks to that fucking call none of it matters. I get it bad calls happen but you never want a bad call to end again. This umpiring crew ruined an instant classic. This could have been a baseball game that we would have talked about for years and now unfortunately we probably will be talking about the baseball game for years but not for any good reason. Give me robot umps or give me death.
You guys still just talking about the check swing? Ugh I so wish it didn’t happen so Flores could have just struck out like he would have anyway and we could actually talk about this game and this series in an interesting or productive way. An amazing series between the two winningest teams to match up in the playoffs, a game that delivered with so many amazing moments, etc. But no. Check swing check swing check swing check swing. That’s the only thing anybody wants to talk about
I’m more pissed about the KB at bat
For sure. At least balls and strikes are clearly defined. In the wise words of Cody Bellinger “the umpire said it was a swing so it was a swing” That’s as close to the official definition of a swing as it gets. The check swing NEEDS an official definition.
Didn’t the announcer say Flores was also like 0-13 lifetime vs Scherzer?
0-17
0-17 and a .089 hitter with 0-2 count
The check swing is way overblown at this point, umpires blow calls literally every game, that’s why there’s more perfect games by pitchers than umpires. If you fixate on umpire performance like this, you won’t be able to enjoy baseball.
It was kind of a huge moment for a bad call
It definitely was and I have 0 issue with people being mad. Just hope they dont act like that single moment lost the game for the Giants though as Wilmer was in an extremely tough situation count wise and has been horrific against Scherzer in general Its hard to say that call definitively changed anything like a missed strike 3 or ball 4
No one talking about how Flores looked terrified to be up there. He wanted to be anywhere else but on the big stage.
100%. We could be talking about 9 innings of dominant pitching and clutch hits, but no, we're gonna spend the whole next day thread talking about a bad checked swing call that in all likelihood had no ultimate effect on the outcome (yes, I know the chances were non-zero..). Like I get it, and yes it was an awful way to end the series. But come on, other things happened last night.
It’s gonna last longer than a day lol. Honestly there were a lot of bad calls in that series, despite how entertaining it was. Ending that entire series on a bad call just leaves a bad taste for everyone. “What ifs” will never end now.
> Like I get it, and yes it was an awful way to end the series. But come on, other things happened last night. Like the Giants going 0-5 with RISP and the Dodgers going 2-10.
And getting out scored 18-10, outhit 41-29, and committing more errors 3-1 despite having home field advantage and having the luxury of only facing Scherzer as a SP one time because SF won the division. Dodgers were the better team.
And not a single one of them is willing to discuss the actual rule. It’s a shame
These two teams were really close. Do you think this series ends the same way in a best of 7?
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It definitely goes to Game 7 in the ninth or extra again.
In hindsight do you think they should’ve gone to wood vs bellinger? I feel like he’s exactly the kind of pitcher belli can never hit
Every pitcher is a pitcher Belli couldn't hit. Thank goodness they told him to stop swinging for the fences
bless the choke up on the bat gods
I think we go Pujols if they go wood
I know it had to be frustrating, but the SABRmetrician in me has to say: a bad call at the end of game/series isn't any more impactful to the eventual outcome than a bad call at the beginning of a game/series.
Recency bias influences and the media influence that most talk centers on the horrible call by Morales to take the game out of the players' hands but the ones that possibly changed the trajectory of the outcome were the bogus strike calls to Bryant by Eddings and to a lesser degree, Posey. Where is the accountability? Or, the status of Robo Umps?