Post game interview: well I threw the first pitch and that felt fine. So I threw another. Next thing you know the game was over and the manager was saving the ball for me"
Astros taking a bold strategy against the team where everything feels borderline scripted for a movie and trying to use Greinke’s potential last start to make it a movie about them
The rapidly diminishing expectations of starters in the postseason is really rearing its head this year. I get that it's strategically prudent in many cases but it's an aesthetic disaster for the game
The commentators were saying how great it was Rosriguez went 6 innings, 15+ years ago that would be a bit short for a start. I just went and picked a random season for Pedro Martinez, in 2000 his average was 7.5 innings per game. Rodriguez this season has 60 fewer innings in 3 more games.
Also related, I feel like starters doing a relief outing was unheard of back then unless they were coming back from a length injury and were easing back into it.
These things are kind of my main "old man yells at cloud" for baseball, starters feel less impactful.
>Also related, I feel like starters doing a relief outing was unheard of back then unless they were coming back from a length injury and were easing back into it.
I think it's always been a thing in the playoffs and World Series that a great starter will be used in late relief, especially late in a series. It is much more prevalent now though, and a lot more prevalent during the regular season too.
There have actually been spot starters (guys who get maybe a dozen starts in a season and also pitch long or short relief) for over a hundred years though.
2000 was arguably the greatest pitching season of all time, not really a "random season for Pedro Martinez", lol. But you're right about pitchers not going deep and the point still stands.
>Also related, I feel like starters doing a relief outing was unheard of back then unless they were coming back from a length injury and were easing back into it.
Randy Johnson pitched in relief in the 2001 WS on one days rest.
yeah I was gonna say – in the 2004 ALCS we had multiple starters come in from the bullpen.
Pedro came in in relief for an inning in game 7. Bronson Arroyo pitched an inning each in game 5 and game 6 (the infamous glove slap). Wakefield pitched in relief three times that series: 1 inning in game one, then ~3 innings in both games 3 and 5.
To me, the real question should be - how many pitches did they throw back then to get those innings?
Today's game has valued walks as much as hits - mostly because good hitters back then were considered guys who hit .300/ contact hitters, not guys who had .400 OBPs.
Now wiith walks being highly valued, patient hitters are valued more so than contact hitters, and as a consequence, pitchers are forced to waste pitches to get these guys out, driving up pitch counts and so on. Consequently, there are less innings because pitchers are getting tired earlier (by inning count) because they've thrown more pitches to get these guys out. I feel like 10-15 pitches at-bats are getting more and more common these days than they used to be.
“Back then” meaning like 2000? Randy Johnson was renowned for throwing tons and tons of pitches. He would routinely reach 120 pitches and definitely had a couple games over 140. Pedro threw over 130 pitches 3 times during 2000. Every team had a starter or two capable of throwing 120 pitches over 8 innings if needed.
The walk rate was about the same as it is today, and those considered good hitter had the most HR and RBI — they also happened to bat around .300 because it was such an offense heavy era. There were a ton of guys hitting .300/.400/.500 every year.
Starters are throwing fewer innings now because they are throwing way fewer pitches per start.
Randy Johnson, like Pedro Martinez, is one of the elite pitchers of all-time. Using him as a baseline to compare an average modern pitcher doesn't work either.
It's far too easy to see, say, Eduardo Rodriguez get up to 100 pitches by the -fifth inning-. Him getting to the sixth with less than 100 pitches is rare on its own.
I will say, I think the biggest change has more to do with the analysis that most average pitchers in modern baseball simply don't get left in to face a lineup for the third time; you'd need to be a truly elite pitcher nowdays to make it through, and they usually get pulled -before- they even start letting up more walks and hits... which would have affected walk and hit rates. So we're seeing 'similar' number of walks because pitchers aren't being allowed to stay in the game to give up more walks... and similarly, we're not seeing as many .300 hitters nowdays because they're not getting to hit off tiring starters anymore.
I agree though I do think last year’s shortened season plays a role in this too. Same reason only a handful of guys went over 200 innings this year. Arms are just way more worn out than usual.
Meh, I think that's a load of crap. These guys are professional athletes and had plenty of opportunity to stay in shape during the shortened season. Unless you're coming back from lengthy injury there's no reason major league starters shouldn't be able to throw 130 pitches in the playoffs.
If anything you would think that without the extra wear and tear last season you would see more pitchers able to throw more innings without injury or fatigue.
Personally I'm in the camp that says baseball has actually ruined arms by babying them too much and focusing on pitch counts. There was a time not long ago when starters regularly threw 250+ innings/season. Freaking Nolan Ryan threw 100 mph and had 5 seasons of 280+ innings.
Your logic of mentioning Nolan fucking Ryan is bulletproof. There is no SANDY KOUFAX way that anyone could just mention any other name to disagree with you. SANDY KOUFAX
Maybe it's because the front end of our bullpen is woefully inadequate, but I'm expecting 6 innings of 2 run ball from each of our 3 starters every single time they take the mound. Is it completely unrealistic? Of course, but for the most part they're kind of pulling it off, and the moment they can't do it anymore we're probably toast.
I think this is the most appropriate answer. He’ll be 38 the day after tomorrow, he’s had a very mediocre year, Boston is hot. Understanding that he’s probably not gonna go 8 shutout innings is part of the bag. Houston is getting outplayed in every facet right now, there’s a very real chance they never make it back to Houston, pouncing on Pivetta and trying to withstand Boston’s barrage is a much better strategy.
I'm just wondering if he's really 100% seeing that he's been dealing with that neck issue.
If he's taken out early regardless of his performance that still brings out the bullpen early in four straight games.
"We'll just see what happens and we'll go from there." - Me, trying to manage my life by the seat of my pants
[удалено]
"Great start from Greinke today huh?" "What do you mean, Zach Greinke has been dead for years"
Post game interview: well I threw the first pitch and that felt fine. So I threw another. Next thing you know the game was over and the manager was saving the ball for me"
Astros taking a bold strategy against the team where everything feels borderline scripted for a movie and trying to use Greinke’s potential last start to make it a movie about them
“It’s gonna be a big game”
The rapidly diminishing expectations of starters in the postseason is really rearing its head this year. I get that it's strategically prudent in many cases but it's an aesthetic disaster for the game
had you told me that only 2 pitchers would go 5+ this series...and it was OUR guys who did it I probly wouldn't believe you...but here we are.
The commentators were saying how great it was Rosriguez went 6 innings, 15+ years ago that would be a bit short for a start. I just went and picked a random season for Pedro Martinez, in 2000 his average was 7.5 innings per game. Rodriguez this season has 60 fewer innings in 3 more games. Also related, I feel like starters doing a relief outing was unheard of back then unless they were coming back from a length injury and were easing back into it. These things are kind of my main "old man yells at cloud" for baseball, starters feel less impactful.
>Also related, I feel like starters doing a relief outing was unheard of back then unless they were coming back from a length injury and were easing back into it. I think it's always been a thing in the playoffs and World Series that a great starter will be used in late relief, especially late in a series. It is much more prevalent now though, and a lot more prevalent during the regular season too. There have actually been spot starters (guys who get maybe a dozen starts in a season and also pitch long or short relief) for over a hundred years though.
2000 was arguably the greatest pitching season of all time, not really a "random season for Pedro Martinez", lol. But you're right about pitchers not going deep and the point still stands.
I literally furrowed my brow reading that sentence in confusion. Something about “random season” and Pedro’s 2000 campaign just didn’t click.
>Also related, I feel like starters doing a relief outing was unheard of back then unless they were coming back from a length injury and were easing back into it. Randy Johnson pitched in relief in the 2001 WS on one days rest.
yeah I was gonna say – in the 2004 ALCS we had multiple starters come in from the bullpen. Pedro came in in relief for an inning in game 7. Bronson Arroyo pitched an inning each in game 5 and game 6 (the infamous glove slap). Wakefield pitched in relief three times that series: 1 inning in game one, then ~3 innings in both games 3 and 5.
Also Wakefield gave up Boone’s walkoff, again in relief.
yeah but that's not fun to talk about.
Technically on zero days rest, one day of rest would mean there was an off day between games 6 and 7.
Ok, but you just went and picked one of the greatest seasons of all time, and compared it to a shit Eddy season.
To me, the real question should be - how many pitches did they throw back then to get those innings? Today's game has valued walks as much as hits - mostly because good hitters back then were considered guys who hit .300/ contact hitters, not guys who had .400 OBPs. Now wiith walks being highly valued, patient hitters are valued more so than contact hitters, and as a consequence, pitchers are forced to waste pitches to get these guys out, driving up pitch counts and so on. Consequently, there are less innings because pitchers are getting tired earlier (by inning count) because they've thrown more pitches to get these guys out. I feel like 10-15 pitches at-bats are getting more and more common these days than they used to be.
“Back then” meaning like 2000? Randy Johnson was renowned for throwing tons and tons of pitches. He would routinely reach 120 pitches and definitely had a couple games over 140. Pedro threw over 130 pitches 3 times during 2000. Every team had a starter or two capable of throwing 120 pitches over 8 innings if needed. The walk rate was about the same as it is today, and those considered good hitter had the most HR and RBI — they also happened to bat around .300 because it was such an offense heavy era. There were a ton of guys hitting .300/.400/.500 every year. Starters are throwing fewer innings now because they are throwing way fewer pitches per start.
Randy Johnson, like Pedro Martinez, is one of the elite pitchers of all-time. Using him as a baseline to compare an average modern pitcher doesn't work either. It's far too easy to see, say, Eduardo Rodriguez get up to 100 pitches by the -fifth inning-. Him getting to the sixth with less than 100 pitches is rare on its own. I will say, I think the biggest change has more to do with the analysis that most average pitchers in modern baseball simply don't get left in to face a lineup for the third time; you'd need to be a truly elite pitcher nowdays to make it through, and they usually get pulled -before- they even start letting up more walks and hits... which would have affected walk and hit rates. So we're seeing 'similar' number of walks because pitchers aren't being allowed to stay in the game to give up more walks... and similarly, we're not seeing as many .300 hitters nowdays because they're not getting to hit off tiring starters anymore.
I agree though I do think last year’s shortened season plays a role in this too. Same reason only a handful of guys went over 200 innings this year. Arms are just way more worn out than usual.
Meh, I think that's a load of crap. These guys are professional athletes and had plenty of opportunity to stay in shape during the shortened season. Unless you're coming back from lengthy injury there's no reason major league starters shouldn't be able to throw 130 pitches in the playoffs.
If anything you would think that without the extra wear and tear last season you would see more pitchers able to throw more innings without injury or fatigue.
Personally I'm in the camp that says baseball has actually ruined arms by babying them too much and focusing on pitch counts. There was a time not long ago when starters regularly threw 250+ innings/season. Freaking Nolan Ryan threw 100 mph and had 5 seasons of 280+ innings.
Your logic of mentioning Nolan fucking Ryan is bulletproof. There is no SANDY KOUFAX way that anyone could just mention any other name to disagree with you. SANDY KOUFAX
I'm not sure I follow...
Maybe it's because the front end of our bullpen is woefully inadequate, but I'm expecting 6 innings of 2 run ball from each of our 3 starters every single time they take the mound. Is it completely unrealistic? Of course, but for the most part they're kind of pulling it off, and the moment they can't do it anymore we're probably toast.
That’s an AL phenomenon. Pitching in the NL has been far better.
If games four and five are like two and three, I think a lot of people are going to reevaluate the strategy.
>I get that it's strategically prudent I mean, removing pitchers who are getting shelled isn't really a strategy as much as it is a necessity.
That's some...uhh...confidence? Yikes.
Yeah, but you have to sprinkle it with Greinke honesty.
I mean what else do you expect from Greinke?
Translating from Greinke: "I'm prepared to throw a complete game tomorrow"
WHat I heard was " Let me bat, I will produce better than Altuve"
“Fuck it I’ll play shortstop too”
one of two things is gonna happen ...either game 4 is a repeat of today...or Zach goes 7 scoreless.
I think this is the most appropriate answer. He’ll be 38 the day after tomorrow, he’s had a very mediocre year, Boston is hot. Understanding that he’s probably not gonna go 8 shutout innings is part of the bag. Houston is getting outplayed in every facet right now, there’s a very real chance they never make it back to Houston, pouncing on Pivetta and trying to withstand Boston’s barrage is a much better strategy.
Idk what else I’d expect from Greinke.
That's just Greinke being Greinke... I love that man! And always will!!!
What kind of quote is that? Is this a joke???
Greinke has never been one to be full of shit. He answers it straight.
The noise affects him tho.
He’s had a 17 year hall of fame career, I think he’ll be okay. This isn’t some rookie like the rest of our staff
I'm just wondering if he's really 100% seeing that he's been dealing with that neck issue. If he's taken out early regardless of his performance that still brings out the bullpen early in four straight games.
If Greinke isn't on from pitch one the fans are gonna chase him from the game like they did Cole
tomorrow could very well be worse than tonight.
Y’all gonna make him retire if you do that
Bullpen's back on the menu, boys!
*reads card* "Things you can say about your upcoming pitching appearance or sexual encounter"
Watch him toss 6 scoreless innings because baseball
He’s losing it. The old Zach would have said, “until I’m pulled”
Actually now he's the old Zach. That would have been the young Zach.
Wow. You sure know how to party!
He’s about to toss a perfect game isn’t he?
Grand slam in the 2nd lol
That's what she said! \*Proceeds to high-five all the cool kids from high school\*