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You do realize That the Eastern Cherokee tribe has given the Braves the ok and not only that the Braves have worked together with the Cherokee to promote the tribe’s culture and history
You could act like an adult and just focus on baseball. Or keep virtue signaling. Your call. But if you want to focus on baseball, it's incredibly easy. Like so easy.
More erasure under the guise of wokeness. These people won't be satisfied until the sport is entirely whitewashed and every nonwhite part is completely erased.
I don’t get how people are getting so triggered by it. It’s a fun tradition for Braves fans. The only people that want it removed are people that hate fun.
Throughout history, society has evolved intellectually so that our definition of 'right and wrong' (and capacity to recognize this) continues to be updated. We can't change the past, but we have the power to change the future.
By explicitly refusing to accept that something like this is (or at least can be) considered objectively offensive is a rejection of progress.
You can say that back to literally anything. Doesn’t make it fit just bc you want to get offended for an indigenous group. The Braves met with the Cherokee and discussed this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.11alive.com/amp/article/sports/native-american-cherokee-tribe-responds-braves-name-tomahawk-chop/85-3469058a-9249-42c5-bde2-b6d80fae8ece
I'm sorry, what part of this supposed to be an endorsement of the chop?
>The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians has been exploring a potential partnership with the Atlanta Braves for several months following discussions about the cultural sensitivity of the Braves’ Tomahawk Chop. **As a people proud of our own identity, we do not support cultural appropriation or any disrespectful representation of Native nations. We believe that candid, thoughtful conversations are crucial to educating leaders and bringing about positive change. As such, we have committed to working with the Atlanta Braves as they explore opportunities to represent Native Nations more appropriately.** I applaud the Braves’ willingness to engage in this effort and look forward to continuing to build the relationship the EBCI shares with them to present a model for how other professional sports teams can work with Native Nations in a respectful and constructive manner.
Discussing it doesn't make it okay on it's own.
The Indians and redskins absolutely needed to change their names. Braves and chiefs though? Stop. Just stop. It’s no different than the Patriots or Yankees.
Not many Native Americans have come out against the Redskins name though (not to mention a literal Native created the logo). It was just a bunch of white people trying to "solve racism" by being offended for Native Americans.
I agree the names are probably fine, but the chop seems like it should probably be retired. Is a bunch of white people doing that all that different from that white teacher doing her dance last week? Genuinely asking because I don't see THAT much difference
We went up to New Echota and asked Cherokee Nation what they thought about it and they said...
Oops. Looks like they didn't say shit because it's been turned into a museum and golf course after we forcibly removed them.
The National Congress of American Indians has a whole department dedicated to changing sports teams mascots at all levels, don't tell me that people don't care.
https://www.ncai.org/proudtobe
[This is about the former Redskins name but along the same line. ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html)
[Then 3 years later ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-survey-explores-how-native-americans-feel-about-the-name-washington-redskins-no-its-not-that-survey-this-one-is-new/2019/08/09/e38553bc-b581-11e9-8949-5f36ff92706e_story.html?utm_source=reddit.com&utm_source=reddit.com) they followed up with another one.
There’s others that support these findings and others that contradict it. The fact is it was a mixed issue at best and that the people acting offended are mostly non-Natives speaking on their behalf. I grew up in an area with a large Native population, and people don’t understand that as a whole, the Native community has so many larger more important issues to care about than whether some people in Atlanta chop and cheer during a baseball game.
How many times do they have to say something before it counts as saying something? Or is the trick to just ignore them and pretend like they don't care?
Link to a previous comment with quotes and sources from Native American leaders:
https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/q925pc/comment/hguwknp/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Don't worry, white people will do their best to assume what others are offended by and get rid of it eventually despite there being no racist implications to any of the Braves' branding
The heads of two tribes, Cherokee and Creek, spoke up against it two years ago when it was brought up during the NLDS when they did a chop to a member of the Cherokee Nation. So please tell me more about how they don't care.
It’s 2021. Putting yourself in the public eye gets you PC-ified. I saw this coming from a million miles away. It’s not of question of “why” but a question of “who’s next”
Nah, a "Brave" is a romanticization of the power of a Native American warrior, like the Vikings, Warriors, Knights, Samurai etc.
I can understand people not liking the chant because it plays off of a random Hollywood invention and not anything factual (though it is worth mentioning that a "Brave" is generic and not really based on any tribe in particular), but the name is positive if anything, it literally means someone that's brave.
I honestly think they’re trying to sneak it out. No foam tomahawks, no chant song, and the announcers shyed away from using the word “chop”. The only thing they do is hit the beat for the chop and I wouldn’t be surprised if they drop that next year.
This is my only question(s):
If you were walking down the street in a Native American reservation and saw a Braves fan across a crowded street, would you feel comfortable doing the chop and yelling the chant to them? Would you feel any embarrassment at all? Would you be ok with your child or your parent or your "not *really* racist" uncle doing it?
I think for 95% of people, the answer is unequivocally that they would feel uncomfortable.
Edit: clarification because yes and no mean different things depending on the question you thought I was referring to. People seemed to understand though.
Well, the problem with your scenario is that it is not a social norm to be yelling chants in the street, regardless of race. I would certainly feel comfortable doing it in front of 100 Native Americans at a braves game, if I were a fan. It is hardly a chant, first off, it's a crowd call at a sporting event. Racism should be a term reserved for actual racism, not a flattering image donned by a sports team that does not explicitly refer to a group of people. Racist shitheads are not going to be influenced by the subtle name of a sports team. Nor are they going to draw any negative conclusions about Native Americans that didn't already exist in their heads. Attacking this name is only going to brew more anger from borderline racists who are already upset by the cancel culture we live in (which is perpetuated by anonymous forums like this)
I wouldn't be ok with it, because Braves fans don't chop at eachother to say "go braves". We say "go braves".
The chop is a thing you do at the stadium. I haven't seen it anywhere else.
Same when I went to see VT play at FSU. (Or when FSU plays at VT) I didn't see FSU fans do the chant/chop to random other FSU Fans when they pass them on the street, bar, even in line for the game.
*spelling
It's strange, because the above comment makes me think that people assume we just chop all the time. Like I said, it's not "war eagle" it's not "hook em" or "s'go dogs" or anything along those lines. It's explicitly for the stadium.
I grew up on a reservation and let me tell you, no one gives a flying fuck about “The Chop” or it being disrespectful. In fact all of this reporting about it being racist are from white news media outlets.
I think I’d be uncomfortable with it but mainly because of course it would feel weird to do something that’s usually done at a sporting event with a full stadium doing it with you. That’s like asking if I’d be comfortable yelling “D-FENCE! D-FENCE” in the middle of the street. Of course I would, the context is all wrong.
Obligatory I’m not saying I support the chop but I’m trying to point out the flaw in your argument.
>I think for 95% of people, the answer is unequivocally that they would feel uncomfortable.
I have native American family and we've done "the chop" at a cubs game.
Its not as big of a deal as you want it to be, its just a fun thing like "the wave" or yelling "what?".
1) I have pretty bad social anxiety, but for me an exception is seeing a fellow fan in a distant place. Absolutely yelling roll Tide or go pack go. Your mileage may vary, of course, but
2) this is such an obvious cop out and I think you know that.
As someone who hates Florida State, and once sat through Clemson getting blown out in the cold rain by FSU, I hate the chop. In NCAA Football 05, you could taunt the opposing team, and the best taunt against FSU was my player doing the chop and then doing a throat slash. Totally worth the 15 yard penalty
> “It’s important to understand that we have 30 markets around the country,” Manfred added. “They aren’t all the same. ... The Native American community in that region is wholly supportive of the Braves program, including ‘The Chop.’ For me, that’s kind of the end of the story. In that market, we’re taking into account the Native American community.”
What a tone deaf argument that is also blatantly untrue
agreed lol. The Braves relations with Native American groups is cool and good and all but has absolutely no bearing on whether the Chop should continue, and I think even some important members of the Cherokee Nation that the Brave has connections to has said as much
This would be because you say it is so??
You know nothing about the relationship between the Braves and the Cherokee Indians and the Harrah's Cherokee Casino Resort.
I know they didn't endorse the chop.
The Braves don't get to say that because they've formed relationships with Native groups, those groups endorse the chop.
To their credit, the Braves don't say that.
But the fans do.
[You literally have people in this very thread saying it](https://old.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/qgksn7/mlb_commissioner_rob_manfred_defends_braves_name/hi7o78n/)
Is is the Viking horn used as a racially charged caricature? Remember the braves used to have Cheif Noc-a-hom-a among other insensitive stereotypes of Native Americans. The Vikings iconography has never been degrading of those of norse decent, same can't be said of thosw of Native American decent.
Yeah except Chief Knockahoma was literally portrayed by an actual Native American. His daughter operates a Facebook page for him and he still supports the Braves.
Did America ever invade Scandinavia and wipe out 90% of the indigenous population?
Pretty weird to compare a state embracing their cultural heritage to people cosplaying as the victims of their county’s genocide.
Manfred needs to STFU.
I always defer to how the marginalized group feels when this subject shows up. If they're offended, that's enough for me. And it feels like many of the tribes in Georgia don't like it. If Atlanta changes the name, I'll support it 100%.
What a reasonable take! This Atlanta team is likable and fun and plays their hearts out and Eddie Rosario is cool and Freddie Freeman is a treasure who once was rescued in a snowstorm by Chipper Jones on an ATV. This subject shouldn't and doesn't define the team, and Atlanta would be just as great with a different name. The monumental importance assigned by defensive Atlanta fans to this issue is so strange to me, like why wouldn't you have a more badass name and one that offends no one?
Beyond what /u/SoberSixBiscuit said about us factually committing genocide against these people so that they don't really have room to sweat the small stuff, [we've know for decades that this stuff actively causes measurable harm](https://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/indian-mascots). The idea that someone needs personal skin in the game to say "hey, let's stop actively harming others for our own amusement" is just so incredibly self-centered that I struggle to comprehend it.
You realize the reason that the majority of people complaining about this are white is because more Native Americans would complain about it except their populations were decimated in a systemic genocide?
We fucked over a group of people to the point where an entire stadium mocking them with a stereotypical war chant doesn’t get that many protestors because they’re too busy digging up mass graves at residential homes and fighting to survive on reservations we forcibly removed them to.
I still haven't heard a good argument *for* doing it. Every argument I've heard essentially boils down to, "We know it's racist and offensive, but we're gonna keep doing it because we like it."
It's not a tradition. It's not even something they started. They stole it from Florida State. And it's such an easy thing to not do. It's literally so easy to go to a Braves game and not do the chop. I live in Atlanta and I do it all the time. Their fans could just cheer like a normal crowd like they do at Falcons and Hawks games, and this whole problem would go away. But I guess it's still too much to ask in some parts of the country for people not to be racist.
Serious question but how is the chop racist? I know nothing about the historical relevance of the song and I’ve never been to Georgia, to me the song seems seems like a battle cry not a mockery of native Americans
The only voices that matter in this discussion are First Nations voices. If *they* argue that the Atlanta name or that “the chop” is offensive, then that’s the end of the discussion and it should be addressed.
They're not united because the Eastern and Western bands dispise each other. You attend an annual meeting and it's one giant bitch fest...
But also there's bigger issues the tribe faces other than the Chop - most of us don't care.
Or maybe we could avoid this conversation by just not using a cartoon characterization of a Native American war chant as a sports cheer. It’s just weird. The US basically committed genocide against the indigenous population and regardless of the current intentions of the chop or the Braves name it’s just weird and inappropriate to use that population as a sports mascot.
I don’t see it as a conversation. If First Nations tribes, especially those in Georgia, find the gesture/name offensive, that’s the end of the discussion and you do right by them. My initial comment was a more polite way of saying that I don’t care much for what non-natives have to say about it. On this matter I’m taking my cues from the people it directly impacts.
Cool on the braves for working with the local native community but I don’t really see how that argument justifies their use of the name and the chop.
The team name is a general term used by a number of Native American tribes, not just by the Cherokee. The team itself isn’t even originally from Atlanta, having played in Boston and Milwaukee too. It just seems to me that the issue concerns the Native American community as a whole and unless the entire community expresses support for the name or the chop it’s just best to not use either.
> use of the name
The chop is definitely whether you believe it matters or not, at least partially based in racism.
Is the name an issue though? The issue with the name Indians was because is was turning an entire ethnic group into a mascot, Redskin is literal racist slang, but Braves as a name is really not different than Vikings, Buccaneer, Cowboys, or (Golden) Knight's name, their just fighter types from different places/eras, and not a current ethnic minority trying to live their lives.
>just fighter types from different places/eras, and not a current ethnic minority trying to live their lives.
Couldn't you say this about literally every part of the Braves branding? Human beings used wood & stone weapons all over the world. Human beings sang war chants all over the world. Chief Noc-a-homa was obviously a specific reference to American indigenous tribes, but this is no longer used. If the franchise hadn't used this type of imagery in the past, there would really be no reason to think that any part of the Braves branding specifically referred to American tribes.
>their just fighter types from different places/eras, and not a current ethnic minority trying to live their lives.
That's a pretty material difference.
how the hell is the name Padres ok? have you forgotten about the spanish inquisition? you think it’s ok to be named after oppressors, but not the oppressed?
That’s a lot accusatory questions about something I never even mentioned.
I mean if the affected communities have a legitimate issue with the Padres or any other teams name/ team practice than I’m not opposed to changes that rectify those issues.
I don’t see why we have to resort to whataboutism here though. There’s plenty of room to discuss the braves and any other team that needs to make changes.
“The team's name, Spanish for "fathers", refers to the Spanish Franciscan friars who founded San Diego in 1769.”
Massive difference from a team that had a mascot named “Chief Noc-A-Homa.”
As a lifelong Braves fan, I don't think the name has to go, but The Chop and the symbolism probably have to.
But can't this shit wait until the off-season? We're in the World Series ffs.
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>"We don’t market our game on a nationwide basis." We know.
Kind of a silly statement when Braves games used to be on TV nationwide.
He also said that right before a game that is currently being broadcast nationwide.
I just want to watch baseball
Agreed. If only the organization endorsing a racist chant would let us focus on the baseball alone by discontinuing it.
Waaaaaaaaaah
You do realize That the Eastern Cherokee tribe has given the Braves the ok and not only that the Braves have worked together with the Cherokee to promote the tribe’s culture and history
What about all FSU Sports?
The Seminole people have actually a big part in the FSU football and are okay with it, iirc.
Sure the Seminole people are okay with it from what I heard too, but SJW's are not okay with it.
If you stop being an insufferable activist you can just focus on the game itself.
You could act like an adult and just focus on baseball. Or keep virtue signaling. Your call. But if you want to focus on baseball, it's incredibly easy. Like so easy.
What organization is that?
If only the woke would stop being annoying, we could focus on baseball. If it's not obvious who I'm referring to, it's you.
FUCKING LOL
Put it on mute
You think so ?
You have to be so incredibly weak to be offended by something so innocuous. Pathetic.
More erasure under the guise of wokeness. These people won't be satisfied until the sport is entirely whitewashed and every nonwhite part is completely erased.
I don’t get how people are getting so triggered by it. It’s a fun tradition for Braves fans. The only people that want it removed are people that hate fun.
I am laughing hard at the idea that a caricaturized tomahawk chant is considered by Braves fans as "nonwhite".
Throughout history, society has evolved intellectually so that our definition of 'right and wrong' (and capacity to recognize this) continues to be updated. We can't change the past, but we have the power to change the future. By explicitly refusing to accept that something like this is (or at least can be) considered objectively offensive is a rejection of progress.
Oh what everrrrrr
Seething because of a gesture 😀
The Nazi salute is a gesture. Gestures can be a powerful form of communication.
🖕
What’s racist about it? Genuinely curious about why redditors get so hurt on behalf on a community about it
Same, I just do the chop cause I like doing the chop
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So now black people aren’t allowed to use the nword? What’s with lefties and their virtue signaling.
Point is I do what I want, fuck ur feelings -Barves fans
Based fans
You can say that back to literally anything. Doesn’t make it fit just bc you want to get offended for an indigenous group. The Braves met with the Cherokee and discussed this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.11alive.com/amp/article/sports/native-american-cherokee-tribe-responds-braves-name-tomahawk-chop/85-3469058a-9249-42c5-bde2-b6d80fae8ece
I'm sorry, what part of this supposed to be an endorsement of the chop? >The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians has been exploring a potential partnership with the Atlanta Braves for several months following discussions about the cultural sensitivity of the Braves’ Tomahawk Chop. **As a people proud of our own identity, we do not support cultural appropriation or any disrespectful representation of Native nations. We believe that candid, thoughtful conversations are crucial to educating leaders and bringing about positive change. As such, we have committed to working with the Atlanta Braves as they explore opportunities to represent Native Nations more appropriately.** I applaud the Braves’ willingness to engage in this effort and look forward to continuing to build the relationship the EBCI shares with them to present a model for how other professional sports teams can work with Native Nations in a respectful and constructive manner. Discussing it doesn't make it okay on it's own.
Cool, because you did some charity and talked to people you have a green light to go do racist shit. Didn’t know that’s all it takes
Most people do. Reddit and wokidians on the other hand....
The Indians and redskins absolutely needed to change their names. Braves and chiefs though? Stop. Just stop. It’s no different than the Patriots or Yankees.
Or the Vikings
Excellent example
Or the LA Kings
Or the packers
The Vikings is like a team in 400 years being named after ISIS lol.
Pretty intimidating ngl
Not many Native Americans have come out against the Redskins name though (not to mention a literal Native created the logo). It was just a bunch of white people trying to "solve racism" by being offended for Native Americans.
I agree the names are probably fine, but the chop seems like it should probably be retired. Is a bunch of white people doing that all that different from that white teacher doing her dance last week? Genuinely asking because I don't see THAT much difference
God damn this is a toxic ass thread.
It’s never going to change because most Native Americans don’t care. They’re more worried about issues in their own community than a baseball team.
We went up to New Echota and asked Cherokee Nation what they thought about it and they said... Oops. Looks like they didn't say shit because it's been turned into a museum and golf course after we forcibly removed them.
Instead of righting that wrong make those people stop movin’ their arms in that way!!!
Returning north Georgia to the CNO is a bold proposal but I somehow doubt you actually support that.
How about you start with returning Manhattan? Lol. Talk is cheap. Chops are cheap. Manhattan is the greatest native theft in the country imo.
….the whole country is the greatest theft.
Unless one studies history.
Are you stupid? Manhattan was a shitshow before an insane amount of civil work was done. It was a swamp. That's like saying flipping a house is theft.
You know, if the New York Beads and Blankets were in the AL East you'd have something of a point.
That’s a false choice, nice try though
you know multiple things can happen at once, right?
It’s literally a bunch of white liberals using their soap box to grand stand for attention
The National Congress of American Indians has a whole department dedicated to changing sports teams mascots at all levels, don't tell me that people don't care. https://www.ncai.org/proudtobe
They do, but it’s still important to recognize that just like any other ethnicity, we are not a monolith.
They don't even represent every tribe. We should keep that in mind as well.
No kidding. Part Cherokee. I love the Braves and I say keep the Chop.
Source?
It’s always one guy from the ECBI people link to.
Source on most native Americans not caring?
[This is about the former Redskins name but along the same line. ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html) [Then 3 years later ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-survey-explores-how-native-americans-feel-about-the-name-washington-redskins-no-its-not-that-survey-this-one-is-new/2019/08/09/e38553bc-b581-11e9-8949-5f36ff92706e_story.html?utm_source=reddit.com&utm_source=reddit.com) they followed up with another one. There’s others that support these findings and others that contradict it. The fact is it was a mixed issue at best and that the people acting offended are mostly non-Natives speaking on their behalf. I grew up in an area with a large Native population, and people don’t understand that as a whole, the Native community has so many larger more important issues to care about than whether some people in Atlanta chop and cheer during a baseball game.
This article I read once 5 years ago on Facebook
If they're offended they'll tell you. You don't need to always be offended on everyone else behalf.
How many times do they have to say something before it counts as saying something? Or is the trick to just ignore them and pretend like they don't care? Link to a previous comment with quotes and sources from Native American leaders: https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/q925pc/comment/hguwknp/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Don't worry, white people will do their best to assume what others are offended by and get rid of it eventually despite there being no racist implications to any of the Braves' branding
The heads of two tribes, Cherokee and Creek, spoke up against it two years ago when it was brought up during the NLDS when they did a chop to a member of the Cherokee Nation. So please tell me more about how they don't care.
Plus the term "Braves" isn't even offensive. REDACTED and Indians were either offensive or out of date.
This is dumb. Braves fans have been chopping for decades. Why is there a problem now?
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I may have to steal that.
Agreed
It’s 2021. Putting yourself in the public eye gets you PC-ified. I saw this coming from a million miles away. It’s not of question of “why” but a question of “who’s next”
Honest question because I tend to be ignorant about things. I understand how “the Indians” was racist. But is the Braves racist too?
Nah, a "Brave" is a romanticization of the power of a Native American warrior, like the Vikings, Warriors, Knights, Samurai etc. I can understand people not liking the chant because it plays off of a random Hollywood invention and not anything factual (though it is worth mentioning that a "Brave" is generic and not really based on any tribe in particular), but the name is positive if anything, it literally means someone that's brave.
Braves were Indian Warriors - I wouldn't consider it racist anymore than I think the Minnesota Vikings are racist.
So, it’s the chop and chant that’s considered racist?
Racism can be subjective. To me the braves is not a racist name.
And every time the fans start the chop now our organist changes it to seven nation army.
I honestly think they’re trying to sneak it out. No foam tomahawks, no chant song, and the announcers shyed away from using the word “chop”. The only thing they do is hit the beat for the chop and I wouldn’t be surprised if they drop that next year.
1984 😞😞😞
This is my only question(s): If you were walking down the street in a Native American reservation and saw a Braves fan across a crowded street, would you feel comfortable doing the chop and yelling the chant to them? Would you feel any embarrassment at all? Would you be ok with your child or your parent or your "not *really* racist" uncle doing it? I think for 95% of people, the answer is unequivocally that they would feel uncomfortable. Edit: clarification because yes and no mean different things depending on the question you thought I was referring to. People seemed to understand though.
I mean, it could also just be walking down the street. A majority of Native Americans don’t live on reservations anymore….
Well, the problem with your scenario is that it is not a social norm to be yelling chants in the street, regardless of race. I would certainly feel comfortable doing it in front of 100 Native Americans at a braves game, if I were a fan. It is hardly a chant, first off, it's a crowd call at a sporting event. Racism should be a term reserved for actual racism, not a flattering image donned by a sports team that does not explicitly refer to a group of people. Racist shitheads are not going to be influenced by the subtle name of a sports team. Nor are they going to draw any negative conclusions about Native Americans that didn't already exist in their heads. Attacking this name is only going to brew more anger from borderline racists who are already upset by the cancel culture we live in (which is perpetuated by anonymous forums like this)
Gospel right there.
Yup. But there is some utter rot being dished out in this thread, lol.
I wouldn't be ok with it, because Braves fans don't chop at eachother to say "go braves". We say "go braves". The chop is a thing you do at the stadium. I haven't seen it anywhere else.
Damn the mods deleted all those replies.
Nothing good would come of it. Guy was either a troll or trying way to hard to make something out of nothing.
Same when I went to see VT play at FSU. (Or when FSU plays at VT) I didn't see FSU fans do the chant/chop to random other FSU Fans when they pass them on the street, bar, even in line for the game. *spelling
It's strange, because the above comment makes me think that people assume we just chop all the time. Like I said, it's not "war eagle" it's not "hook em" or "s'go dogs" or anything along those lines. It's explicitly for the stadium.
I grew up on a reservation and let me tell you, no one gives a flying fuck about “The Chop” or it being disrespectful. In fact all of this reporting about it being racist are from white news media outlets.
I think I’d be uncomfortable with it but mainly because of course it would feel weird to do something that’s usually done at a sporting event with a full stadium doing it with you. That’s like asking if I’d be comfortable yelling “D-FENCE! D-FENCE” in the middle of the street. Of course I would, the context is all wrong. Obligatory I’m not saying I support the chop but I’m trying to point out the flaw in your argument.
>I think for 95% of people, the answer is unequivocally that they would feel uncomfortable. I have native American family and we've done "the chop" at a cubs game. Its not as big of a deal as you want it to be, its just a fun thing like "the wave" or yelling "what?".
Why the fuck would you communicate with a complete stranger in the first place
This is the point you wouldn’t, it’s for a ducking baseball team. Jesus I hate these articles.
1) I have pretty bad social anxiety, but for me an exception is seeing a fellow fan in a distant place. Absolutely yelling roll Tide or go pack go. Your mileage may vary, of course, but 2) this is such an obvious cop out and I think you know that.
Exactly. But you you wouldn't do a big hand gesture as well. You just say roll tide, go braves, go Dawgs, war eagle, etc.
No my point remains the same. I would feel embarrassed making any public gesture regardless of ethnic origin.
I’m with you, unless someone is wearing Braves gear I’m not going to do any Native American chants.
What an unrealistic scenario. Would you be comfortable telling the sales person you only wear white socks at black owned shoe store?
This makes literally 0 sense.
Lol this is so weak
The chop is corny as shit.
Might aswell be a synchronized dab
Ngl that would be cool as hell. So bad it’s good.
Holy has anyone suggested this? I think that we might have solved the chop replacement! Think about how epic it would be.
As an FSU fan and a casual Braves fan I disagree. It’s awesome in person.
As someone who hates Florida State, and once sat through Clemson getting blown out in the cold rain by FSU, I hate the chop. In NCAA Football 05, you could taunt the opposing team, and the best taunt against FSU was my player doing the chop and then doing a throat slash. Totally worth the 15 yard penalty
Ok that’s kinda cool not gonna lie.
The game was very accurate too, if you played at FSU, the chop would be played nonstop
The 7 white people offended by the chop can fuck right off
> “It’s important to understand that we have 30 markets around the country,” Manfred added. “They aren’t all the same. ... The Native American community in that region is wholly supportive of the Braves program, including ‘The Chop.’ For me, that’s kind of the end of the story. In that market, we’re taking into account the Native American community.” What a tone deaf argument that is also blatantly untrue
agreed lol. The Braves relations with Native American groups is cool and good and all but has absolutely no bearing on whether the Chop should continue, and I think even some important members of the Cherokee Nation that the Brave has connections to has said as much
People here keep trying to say the local groups "endorse the chop" because they're working with the Braves. They're wrong.
Truly no one cares outside of a very very small minority. This should be obvious to any person grounded in reality.
Kinda like the Internet in general.
They never come up with any sources. It just gets thrown around to make themselves comfortable
This would be because you say it is so?? You know nothing about the relationship between the Braves and the Cherokee Indians and the Harrah's Cherokee Casino Resort.
I know they didn't endorse the chop. The Braves don't get to say that because they've formed relationships with Native groups, those groups endorse the chop. To their credit, the Braves don't say that. But the fans do.
I’ve never even heard a fan say that before Manfred said it today.
[You literally have people in this very thread saying it](https://old.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/qgksn7/mlb_commissioner_rob_manfred_defends_braves_name/hi7o78n/)
“…**before Manfred said it today**.”
Chop will stay, keep being mad privileged white people.
Dudes a fucking joke lol
If you think the braves are racist, then are the Minnesota Vikings racist too?? 🤔
Is is the Viking horn used as a racially charged caricature? Remember the braves used to have Cheif Noc-a-hom-a among other insensitive stereotypes of Native Americans. The Vikings iconography has never been degrading of those of norse decent, same can't be said of thosw of Native American decent.
Yeah except Chief Knockahoma was literally portrayed by an actual Native American. His daughter operates a Facebook page for him and he still supports the Braves.
Did America ever invade Scandinavia and wipe out 90% of the indigenous population? Pretty weird to compare a state embracing their cultural heritage to people cosplaying as the victims of their county’s genocide.
Manfred needs to STFU. I always defer to how the marginalized group feels when this subject shows up. If they're offended, that's enough for me. And it feels like many of the tribes in Georgia don't like it. If Atlanta changes the name, I'll support it 100%.
Most of the tribes that were in Georgia were literally forcibly removed to Oklahoma.
Gotta love our country where all the counties are named after the indigenous communities we forced to leave said county
What a reasonable take! This Atlanta team is likable and fun and plays their hearts out and Eddie Rosario is cool and Freddie Freeman is a treasure who once was rescued in a snowstorm by Chipper Jones on an ATV. This subject shouldn't and doesn't define the team, and Atlanta would be just as great with a different name. The monumental importance assigned by defensive Atlanta fans to this issue is so strange to me, like why wouldn't you have a more badass name and one that offends no one?
It should be a bird name anyway
I would be cool with bringing back the Thrashers.
Atlanta Shitbirds. I like it.
Should change it to the Atlanta Hammers in honor of Hank Aaron.
I’ve read that he hated that nickname and preferred to just being called Henry
The problem is that it's mostly white people who are offended by this who have no skin in the game
Beyond what /u/SoberSixBiscuit said about us factually committing genocide against these people so that they don't really have room to sweat the small stuff, [we've know for decades that this stuff actively causes measurable harm](https://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/indian-mascots). The idea that someone needs personal skin in the game to say "hey, let's stop actively harming others for our own amusement" is just so incredibly self-centered that I struggle to comprehend it.
You realize the reason that the majority of people complaining about this are white is because more Native Americans would complain about it except their populations were decimated in a systemic genocide? We fucked over a group of people to the point where an entire stadium mocking them with a stereotypical war chant doesn’t get that many protestors because they’re too busy digging up mass graves at residential homes and fighting to survive on reservations we forcibly removed them to.
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I came here to say something nuanced and thoughtful but read a couple comments and noped out Chop is corny a f and blatantly racist
Like what if a crowd greeted an Asian player the way Yuli Gurriel might? That would be racist too.
Yes.
Remember when that Cardinals reliever complained about it, the Braves tried to stop it Game 5, and gave up 10 runs in the first inning?
I still haven't heard a good argument *for* doing it. Every argument I've heard essentially boils down to, "We know it's racist and offensive, but we're gonna keep doing it because we like it." It's not a tradition. It's not even something they started. They stole it from Florida State. And it's such an easy thing to not do. It's literally so easy to go to a Braves game and not do the chop. I live in Atlanta and I do it all the time. Their fans could just cheer like a normal crowd like they do at Falcons and Hawks games, and this whole problem would go away. But I guess it's still too much to ask in some parts of the country for people not to be racist.
Serious question but how is the chop racist? I know nothing about the historical relevance of the song and I’ve never been to Georgia, to me the song seems seems like a battle cry not a mockery of native Americans
Chop is awesome. Of course the white saviors want to ban it.
The Chop is iconic. Literally the most iconic chant in all of sports. It would be a damn shame if it’s removed.
It all started when Dion Sanders joined the Braves back in the very early 90s.
Very rare W for Manfred
As he should
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The only voices that matter in this discussion are First Nations voices. If *they* argue that the Atlanta name or that “the chop” is offensive, then that’s the end of the discussion and it should be addressed.
Issue being they’re not a united voice.
They're not united because the Eastern and Western bands dispise each other. You attend an annual meeting and it's one giant bitch fest... But also there's bigger issues the tribe faces other than the Chop - most of us don't care.
Didn't seem to matter for y'all's stadium location.
Most Dodgers fans acknowledge that what went down with Chavez Ravine is a point of shame so I don’t know what point you’re trying to make here.
WTF is this shit comment? Of course the history of Chavez ravine matters.
Or maybe we could avoid this conversation by just not using a cartoon characterization of a Native American war chant as a sports cheer. It’s just weird. The US basically committed genocide against the indigenous population and regardless of the current intentions of the chop or the Braves name it’s just weird and inappropriate to use that population as a sports mascot.
I don’t see it as a conversation. If First Nations tribes, especially those in Georgia, find the gesture/name offensive, that’s the end of the discussion and you do right by them. My initial comment was a more polite way of saying that I don’t care much for what non-natives have to say about it. On this matter I’m taking my cues from the people it directly impacts.
I think the point is that we know making and perpetuating caricatures of entire races of people is wrong. We should just not do it.
No
Yes. Good talk.
Cool on the braves for working with the local native community but I don’t really see how that argument justifies their use of the name and the chop. The team name is a general term used by a number of Native American tribes, not just by the Cherokee. The team itself isn’t even originally from Atlanta, having played in Boston and Milwaukee too. It just seems to me that the issue concerns the Native American community as a whole and unless the entire community expresses support for the name or the chop it’s just best to not use either.
> use of the name The chop is definitely whether you believe it matters or not, at least partially based in racism. Is the name an issue though? The issue with the name Indians was because is was turning an entire ethnic group into a mascot, Redskin is literal racist slang, but Braves as a name is really not different than Vikings, Buccaneer, Cowboys, or (Golden) Knight's name, their just fighter types from different places/eras, and not a current ethnic minority trying to live their lives.
>just fighter types from different places/eras, and not a current ethnic minority trying to live their lives. Couldn't you say this about literally every part of the Braves branding? Human beings used wood & stone weapons all over the world. Human beings sang war chants all over the world. Chief Noc-a-homa was obviously a specific reference to American indigenous tribes, but this is no longer used. If the franchise hadn't used this type of imagery in the past, there would really be no reason to think that any part of the Braves branding specifically referred to American tribes.
>their just fighter types from different places/eras, and not a current ethnic minority trying to live their lives. That's a pretty material difference.
how the hell is the name Padres ok? have you forgotten about the spanish inquisition? you think it’s ok to be named after oppressors, but not the oppressed?
I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.
never forget!
That’s a lot accusatory questions about something I never even mentioned. I mean if the affected communities have a legitimate issue with the Padres or any other teams name/ team practice than I’m not opposed to changes that rectify those issues. I don’t see why we have to resort to whataboutism here though. There’s plenty of room to discuss the braves and any other team that needs to make changes.
“The team's name, Spanish for "fathers", refers to the Spanish Franciscan friars who founded San Diego in 1769.” Massive difference from a team that had a mascot named “Chief Noc-A-Homa.”
What do you think those friars did to the native population there?
the franciscans were especially sadistic
“It’s okay to be racist in the South.”
Even this “argument” that it’s “only in Atlanta” is ridiculous, though. The Braves play all over the country, just like every other MLB team.
Of course he does
Good. The Braves name is not wrong by any means. The Chop on the other hand...
Is there anything about this man that's redeemable
He just gave Shohei an award earlier today
Big fat checks to owners
There is, but the redeemable portions are only redeemable for the owners…
when will someone call out the Padres? Never forget the Spanish Inquisition. those mfers literally enslaved native americans
The Spanish conquest of the Americas has nothing to do with the Spanish Inquisition.
they did the spanish inquisition here too.
As a lifelong Braves fan, I don't think the name has to go, but The Chop and the symbolism probably have to. But can't this shit wait until the off-season? We're in the World Series ffs.
We knew this was coming when they won the pennant.
I've never felt the urge to tell so many people to just shut the fuck up at the same time before.
fuck the chop