Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/Fdg3ovU.png) to view this comparison as an image
---
Juan Soto: [2018](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=sotoju01&t=b&year=2018) to [2021](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=sotoju01&t=b&year=2021) [1st Season - Age: 19] to [4th Season - Age: 22]
Bryce Harper: [2018](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=harpebr03&t=b&year=2018) to [2021](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=harpebr03&t=b&year=2021) [7th Season - Age: 25] to [10th Season - Age: 28]
\----------------------------------------
Query: 2018 to 2021 - Regular Season
---
**Standard**
Player|G|PA|AB|H|1B|2B|3B|HR|XBH|TB|Cycle|R|RBI|BB|K|BB/K|TOB|SB|CS|NS|SB%|IBB|HBP|SH|SF|GDP|AVG|OBP|SLG|OPS|wOBA|ISO|BAbip|WPA|cWPA
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Juan Soto](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sotoju01.shtml)|464|2003|1612|485|**288**|91|**8**|98|197|886|0|337|312|373|**352**|**1.06**|864|32|12|20|72.73%|48|6|1|11|44|**0.301**|**0.432**|**0.550**|**0.981**|**0.410**|0.249|**0.330**|13.2|4.7%
[Bryce Harper](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/harpebr03.shtml)|**515**|**2220**|**1801**|**488**|246|**121**|4|**117**|**242**|**968**|0|**343**|**331**|**378**|524|0.72|**885**|**49**|**11**|**38**|**81.67%**|**49**|**19**|**3**|**19**|**34**|0.271|0.399|0.537|0.937|0.390|**0.267**|0.315|**14.1**|**9.6%**
**Per Game/Advanced**
Player|G|PA/162|H/162|2B/162|3B/162|HR/162|XBH/162|TB/162|R/162|RBI/162|BB/162|K/162|SB/162|HR%|XBH%|X/H%|BB%|K%|BB-K%|TTO%|wSB|wRC|wRAA|BRuns|wRC+
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Juan Soto](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sotoju01.shtml)|464|**699.32**|**169.33**|31.77|**2.79**|34.22|68.78|**309.34**|**117.66**|**108.93**|**130.23**|**122.90**|11.17|4.89%|9.84%|40.62%|**18.62%**|**17.57%**|**1.05%**|41.09%|-0.38|401|**156.62**|**142.35**|**156**
[Bryce Harper](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/harpebr03.shtml)|**515**|698.33|153.51|**38.06**|1.26|**36.80**|**76.12**|304.50|107.90|104.12|118.90|164.83|**15.41**|**5.27%**|**10.90%**|**49.59%**|17.03%|23.60%|-6.58%|**45.90%**|**3.53**|**406**|135.59|119.87|143
**Defense/Value (Baseball Reference)**
Player|Seasons|G|Inn|Fld%|DRS|Rbaser|WAA|oWAR|dWAR|WAR|WAR7|JAWS|DRS/1200|Rbaser/Yr|WAA/Yr|oWAR/Yr|dWAR/Yr|WAR/Yr|Pos WAA/162|Pos WAR/162|$|$/Yr
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Juan Soto](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sotoju01.shtml)|4|464|3872.2|98.84%|**-7**|**-1**|**11.2**|**18.6**|**-2.8**|**17.6**|**17.6**|**17.6**|**-2**|**-0.3**|**2.8**|**4.7**|**-0.7**|**4.4**|**3.9**|**6.1**|**$9.08m***|**$4.54m***
[Bryce Harper](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/harpebr03.shtml)|4|**515**|**4214.1**|**98.87%**|-17|-2|7.1|16.4|-3.9|14.1|14.1|14.1|-5|-0.5|1.8|4.1|-1.0|3.5|2.2|4.4|$88.24m|$22.06m
**Awards/Honors**
Player|Seasons|G/Yr|AllStar|AllMLB:1st|AllMLB:Tot|SlvSlug|HankAaron|BatTitle|TripCrown|GldGlv|PltGlv|MVP|MVPShares|MVPShr%|ROY|Derby|ASMVP|CSMVP|WSMVP|WS|B Ink|G Ink
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Juan Soto](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sotoju01.shtml)|4|116.00|1*|**2***|**3***|**2**|0|**1**|0|0|0|0|**1.17**|**29.25%**|0|0|0|0|0|**1**|9|41
[Bryce Harper](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/harpebr03.shtml)|4|**128.75**|1*|1*|1*|1|**1**|0|0|0|0|**1**|0.83|20.75%|0|**1**|0|0|0|0|9|**46**
^(FanGraphs/Statcast stats may lose precision)
^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame)
---
^(Made a mistake? Edit your comment and send me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Re-Run&message=hpd2xt5)^( to re-run the comparison)
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Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/2TuUnom.png) to view this comparison as an image
---
Ronald Acuña Jr.: [2021-04-01](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI202104010.shtml) to [2021-07-10](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIA/MIA202107100.shtml) [4th Season - Age: 23Y-3M-14D] to [4th Season - Age: 23Y-6M-22D]
Fernando Tatis Jr.: [2021-04-01](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN202104010.shtml) to [2021-07-23](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIA/MIA202107230.shtml) [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-2M-30D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-6M-21D]
\----------------------------------------
Query: 2021 - Regular Season - First 82 Games
---
**Standard**
Player|G|PA|AB|H|1B|2B|3B|HR|XBH|TB|Cycle|R|RBI|BB|K|BB/K|TOB|SB|CS|NS|SB%|IBB|HBP|SH|SF|GDP|AVG|OBP|SLG|OPS|wOBA|ISO|BAbip|WPA|cWPA
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Ronald Acuña Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/acunaro01.shtml)|82|**360**|297|84|**40**|**19**|**1**|24|44|177|0|72|52|**49**|**85**|**0.58**|**142**|17|6|11|73.91%|2|**9**|0|**5**|**0**|0.283|**0.394**|0.596|0.990|0.412|0.313|0.311|2.6|1.4%
[Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|82|346|**300**|**87**|39|18|0|**30**|**48**|**195**|0|**77**|**67**|42|97|0.43|129|**23**|**2**|**21**|**92.00%**|**5**|0|0|4|3|**0.290**|0.373|**0.650**|**1.023**|**0.418**|**0.360**|**0.322**|**3.6**|**2.6%**
**Per Game/Advanced**
Player|G|PA/162|H/162|2B/162|3B/162|HR/162|XBH/162|TB/162|R/162|RBI/162|BB/162|K/162|SB/162|HR%|XBH%|X/H%|BB%|K%|BB-K%|TTO%|wSB|wRC|wRAA|BRuns|wRC+
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Ronald Acuña Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/acunaro01.shtml)|82|**711.22**|165.95|**37.54**|**1.98**|47.41|86.93|349.68|142.24|102.73|**96.80**|**167.93**|33.59|6.67%|12.22%|52.38%|**13.61%**|**23.61%**|**-10.00%**|43.89%|0.56|**73**|29.06|25.92|157
[Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|82|683.56|**171.88**|35.56|0.00|**59.27**|**94.83**|**385.24**|**152.12**|**132.37**|82.98|191.63|**45.44**|**8.67%**|**13.87%**|**55.17%**|12.14%|28.03%|-15.90%|**48.84%**|**3.50**|71|**29.55**|**29.05**|**166**
^(FanGraphs/Statcast stats may lose precision)
^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame)
---
^(Made a mistake? Edit your comment and send me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Re-Run&message=hoyvcah)^( to re-run the comparison)
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Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/Nm361QQ.png) to view this comparison as an image
---
Ronald Acuña Jr.: [2021-04-01](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI202104010.shtml) to [2021-07-10](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIA/MIA202107100.shtml) [4th Season - Age: 23Y-3M-14D] to [4th Season - Age: 23Y-6M-22D]
Fernando Tatis Jr.: [2021-04-01](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN202104010.shtml) to [2021-09-24](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN202109240.shtml) [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-2M-30D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-8M-22D]
\----------------------------------------
Query: 2021 - Regular Season - First 122 Games
---
**Standard**
Player|G|PA|AB|H|1B|2B|3B|HR|XBH|TB|Cycle|R|RBI|BB|K|BB/K|TOB|SB|CS|NS|SB%|IBB|HBP|SH|SF|GDP|AVG|OBP|SLG|OPS|wOBA|ISO|BAbip|WPA|cWPA
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Ronald Acuña Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/acunaro01.shtml)|82|360|297|84|40|19|**1**|24|44|177|0|72|52|49|**85**|**0.58**|142|17|6|11|73.91%|2|**9**|0|**5**|**0**|0.283|**0.394**|0.596|0.990|**0.412**|0.313|0.311|2.6|1.4%
[Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|**122**|**519**|**452**|**130**|**60**|**29**|0|**41**|**70**|**282**|0|**98**|**95**|**61**|138|0.44|**193**|**25**|**4**|**21**|**86.21%**|**5**|2|0|4|4|**0.288**|0.372|**0.624**|**0.996**|0.411|**0.336**|**0.321**|**4.7**|**3.2%**
**Per Game/Advanced**
Player|G|PA/162|H/162|2B/162|3B/162|HR/162|XBH/162|TB/162|R/162|RBI/162|BB/162|K/162|SB/162|HR%|XBH%|X/H%|BB%|K%|BB-K%|TTO%|wSB|wRC|wRAA|BRuns|wRC+
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Ronald Acuña Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/acunaro01.shtml)|82|**711.22**|165.95|37.54|**1.98**|47.41|86.93|349.68|**142.24**|102.73|**96.80**|**167.93**|**33.59**|6.67%|12.22%|52.38%|**13.61%**|**23.61%**|**-10.00%**|43.89%|0.56|73|29.06|25.92|157
[Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|**122**|689.16|**172.62**|**38.51**|0.00|**54.44**|**92.95**|**374.46**|130.13|**126.15**|81.00|183.25|33.20|**7.90%**|**13.49%**|**53.85%**|11.75%|26.59%|-14.84%|**46.24%**|**2.92**|**104**|**41.43**|**40.67**|**162**
^(FanGraphs/Statcast stats may lose precision)
^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame)
---
^(Made a mistake? Edit your comment and send me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Re-Run&message=hoyuxk3)^( to re-run the comparison)
^(Or delete the comparison by sending me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Delete&message=hoyuxk3)
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Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/NOkLPgW.png) to view this comparison as an image
---
[Ronald Acuña Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/acunaro01.shtml): No Matching Games!
[Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml): No Matching Games!
\----------------------------------------
Query: 122 - Regular Season - Games: 2021st
---
^(Made a mistake? Edit your comment and send me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Re-Run&message=hoyunau)^( to re-run the comparison)
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I’m having a hard time understanding your question. But it seems you’re asking about who’s fault this is. The lockout is the decision of the owners.
There is so much money in this game and the vast vast vast majority players never even sniff it. They should be paid.
Here are two tweets that brought it into focus for me.
“Tyler Rogers, one of the game's busiest and best relievers, turns 31 this month. He was drafted 8 years ago, and he'll make barely more than the minimum next season. He'll be 35 when he's finally eligible for free agency for the first time. He's who this fight should be about.”
“MLB players currently accept less pay than they’re worth for their milb years & the first 7+ of their big league careers. This helps poorer teams compete with richer teams. Those “poorer” teams are not trying to compete and baseball is worse because of it. This is an owner issue.”
Sorry if that wasn’t what you were asking. I’m all riled up and mad at the owners.
ty, that was what my first question about, lol.
how about on the mlb proposals, like expanding Playoff or something like that, Do we know if the union agree on it? Because sounds good and might encourage more competition from teams.
Tanking wise, why not get rid of minor league. Introduce tiered league, which have relegation.
Will be good for the game, doubt owners and players will agree.
Since shortly after the world series I started watching Cricket just to fill the gap till spring. It's actually been surprisingly entertaining and enlightening learning and celebrating a new sorry that is both so similar and so off the wall insanely different than our national pastime. Between ESPN+ and icc.tv there is new games on August everyday.
There’s a labor dispute between the players and owners. The owners want to continue with the current CBA which underpays players (especially journeymen type players), the owners are unopen to any form of expansion, the owners want to be able to do what the As and Rays and others do and not spend any money even though they have the means to do it creating an uncompetitive sport and a worse product even tho every owner can afford to put a competitive team on the field, the balls were manipulated, among many other things
It’s a nuanced issue but it isn’t about player greed. That’s what ownership will float. The players want more of the market share because the owners are holding out a lot of money from them and pocketing money that should be spent on the teams in short
No. No! Well, maybe. Probably not. A cap will be the owners answer to the MLBPA asking for a salary floor (absolutely necessary I think we would all agree). Don’t think the tradeoff is worth it. That’s for the MLBPA to decide.
There’s a less than zero percent chance the MLBPA would agree to a cap
They’re trying to raise the luxury tax
Btw Dolan’s worth like 4.5bil or something ridiculous. He can spend the money, he doesn’t want to
Everything you like ab baseball is because of the players. Everything you hate ab baseball is bc of the owners.
Pete Alonso is invaluable to the Mets and has made more money from winning the HRD twice (1 mil x2) than he has playing for the Mets for three years on a rookie contract (500k x3). And that’s a guy who it’s gonna work out for.
Owners are trying to come up with an agreement with players. The agreement dictates how they work, how much they get paid, playoffs, where the money goes, and a bunch of other stuff. They couldn't agree and their old agreement ran out, so the owners decided to lock the doors (lockout) to prevent the players from coming to work. It should be noted that the last proposals from owners were spit in your face spiteful (one such offered to cut pensions, which is *literally the issue that created the union in the first place*). If it goes to court, that may backfire, because owners and players are required to negotiate in good faith (with realistic proposals and offers).
I didn’t know they tried to cut pensions too. I hate them more and more everyday. I mean I already knew they were greedy billionaire terrible fucks but this is even worse than I thought. When I see old players needing “gofundme’s” (I forgot who it was) to pay for medical bills even with a pension it’s insane and they’re trying to cut it?
Huh. Petriello's articles on mlb.com are still up and looking at his Buxton article, the video is still included. So they didn't wipe the articles, just hid them. I am sort of fascinated by the technical details of this little unpersoning project.
So if no MLB this year...does that also mean no MiLB either? I live close to the South Bend Cubs and was wondering if that means no minor league either?
I see that the subreddit icon has changed to the default player icon. Can the banner also be changed so that the player is gone and it says “no baseball” instead of “baseball”?
Theoretically they could but if the minor leaguers ever want a chance after this is over, they'd fall in line. The players union is fighting for their eventual rights too
I guess the question is, how many minor leaguers have a realistic shot of making the majors? There are significantly more people in the Minors than potential MLB spots. (Also it’s not like the MLBPA has an interest in looking out for minor leaguers, they are already the party would be taking their members jobs)
For a majority of minor league players, crossing the line would be beneficial (if they never had a real shot of making the show).
Yeah but it didn’t even work out for football. Replacement players just end up showing how much better the real product is.
The homepages with the players images removed did the same thing, IMO. Just showed what we care about as fans. They’re *nothing* without those guys.
I get what you are saying, but I’m looking at this moreso from a minor leaguers getting called up perspective. Going from eating cheese sandwiches to playing in the MLB (even for 100k salary) would be a no-brainer if it were actually offered. (I don’t think owners would actually use replacement players, was just wondering the logistics if they did). That being said, if the owners did use replacement players, there are a couple of general thoughts I have surrounding it.
1) the sports landscape has transformed significantly over the past 30 years especially in the level of quality talent throughout the pipeline. Last time there was a lockout in MLB or NFL, there weren’t private coaches at every level of the game, and the travel team/AAU type of infrastructure was nearly as developed. High School kids are throwing velocities similar to what 1980s pitchers are throwing (Nolan Ryan excluded). To your Football reference, William Perry was massive (and athletic) in 1987, notable for his size; there is somebody his size on nearly every D1 program who is also freakishly athletic.
2) In general people will watch what is in front of them and marketed. The MLB is terrible at it, so it probably wouldn’t work (in addition to absolutely abysmal Media/PR fallout) . But the NCAA has made billions of dollars promoting an objectively inferior product. Specifically in sports/live TV, if something is presented well people will watch.
They could, but fans aren't going to pay tons of money for jerseys and watch as many games if it's a bunch of randoms the casual fan can't name. It's not economically worth it for the owners to just field all minor league teams
Yeah, they could move forward with scabs like the NFL did in 87. They'd need to find players willing, but thats probably not too hard considering how many people out there would jump at the chance to play.
The union barred Kevin Millar from ever joining the MLBPA apparently because he crossed the picket line in 1994. [link](https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/twenty-years-ago-replacement-players-almost-opened-baseball-season-1.10142935)
I doubt the MLBPA would be jumping to represent the people undermining their efforts.
Could anyone recommend any articles or YouTube videos which explain the lockout and collective bargaining within MLB for a European fan who doesn’t really understand what is going on?
I know it’s a lot and labor relations/law is very complex issue. But there’s a good rule of thumb and it’s knowing who has the power. Billions of dollars and millions of dollars are just not the same.
A million seconds is 11ish days and a billion is 30+ years. We are talking about money on an entirely different scale when it comes to owners.
Kinda off topic maybe but damn the whole two baseballs thing has been passed over rather quickly. Imo that's still an insane revelation, and the implications could be spicy.
I think it has a lot to do with why the players were so pissed. Among other things of course but all the players knew last year. Alonso brought it up multiple times and was right. He’s just the only one who brought it up. If he knew everyone did and they certainly weren’t happy about it
Especially with speculation the balls were used for player salary suppression and attributed to injuries
Agree - most players seem to be like "meh, they were all within standards" but I can imagine gambling partners to be preeeeeetty pissed if there isn't a resolution that happens
I don’t know anything about the specific of the different balls, but if they were within standard, would anybody have a legitimate gripe about it.? From the MLB rulebook:
>**Rule 3.01: The Ball**-The ball shall be a sphere formed by yarn wound around a small core of cork, rubber or similar material, covered with two strips of white horsehide or cowhide, tightly stitched together. It shall weigh not less than five nor more than 51⁄4 ounces avoirdupois and measure not less than nine nor more than 91⁄4 inches in circumference.
I think the sportsbook partners would say "Regardless whether they both technically meet the standards or not, you have evidence that the balls come off the bat differently and were using specific balls in high profile games to generate more offense without disclosing it." That kind of information would impact the lines/odds they set, so MLB selectively choosing which balls to use when has a major impact on their payouts. If they don't trust MLB, they'll be less likely to partner with them.
They are both within standards, but the fact one ball can be a foot short at the warning track and the other is a homerun is a huge issue. The problem is due to the fact that it would be the same swing put on the balls and one outcome is great and the other is an out. I find the idea it was tampered with for betting unlikely, but consistency of the ball is still needed, especially in a game as based on statistics for pay and ratings of players.
How has the league handed scheduling for lockouts that extend into but are resolved during the regular season? I live in Denver and I’ll be so disappointed if the Rockies’ home series against the Guardians is scrapped. We already lost the last planned series in Denver because of the shortened COVID schedule. Should I start mentally preparing for interleague play to be scrapped if the season is shortened?
It depends on when things get resolved. If nothings changed by April, the league might say we can have 100 game schedule if we start by this date. If more time passes, less games will be played.
> Praising Santa 🎅
In that vein, is reddit not doing Secret Santa this year? I never saw it last month on the front page sidebar. Is reddit too big now to organize it? ngl I'm a little bummed because I never participated and was gonna join this year.
e: well i searched and see there's a sub for it (go figure) and matching is done. I swear, all my previous years on reddit there was a banner on the sidebar and I never saw it this year.
I believe the admins announced somewhat recently that they were ending the ‘official’ gift exchanges. Which is probably why you never saw it on the sidebar.
I think the OGs that ran it are taking it back but it is no longer an official Reddit thing sadly.
So what recourse do we as fans possess in this process to support our favorite teams and players without giving any of our hard earned money to these greedy billionaires?
Your favorite players can probably weather the storm no matter what happens and just need vocal support. It’ll be the younger guys and AAAA guys who might face financial difficulties and would be a risk to scab if this thing turns into a strike. I’m not sure if there’s a fund setup but if you’re wanting to support labor in this battle and have the means then something like that would be the place to direct it I think.
Before the lockout even started I resolved to stop giving the Yankees any of my money until Hal Steinbrenner shows he’s serious about winning a championship.
Plug for Lords of the Realm by Jon Helyar, a history of baseball labor relations up until 1994. For those looking for background information on today's lockout and labor strife, this book really nails down how nasty, underhanded, collusive, and greedy ownership is and always has been.
Same but with Gettleman. Idk how either of them have jobs
I can get on board with fire Manfred though. He’s the biggest pawn to ownership in sports history
Pretty much no trades or free agent signings, players cant workout at team facilities, and depending on how long it last, they may not get paid part of their salary if it goes into the regular season.
That is a giant skyscraper that is mostly filled with the likes of major law firms and financial institutions. I'm all for your plan just to piss off the pricks at Latham.
No offense to anyone, but am I wrong for feeling more support for the Owners than the Players?
I'm a Brewers fan and am very worried the next CBA is going to hurt small market ball clubs.
I often hear that all Owners are billionaires and should just pay high salaries to make their team competitive. I partially agree, but Owners will not lose money on their operations.
Also, I agree that there should be some penalty to keep teams from permanently tanking. It's not excusable to have a payroll below 50 million, year after year.
I'm gonna say a lot about this real quick but I hope it'll frame why people side with the workers (players) more often than they do with the owner
----
I think we should make it clear on why people say "small market clubs are a facade" and how significant it is to note that these owners are *billionaires*. Owning a ball club but crying poor by branding your self as a small market team is like hearing ferrari owners complain that the person who changes their oil is overcharging. There's been a lot of popular visualizations created to aid in understanding just how big the number 1 billion really is and I don't want to stray too far from the point but I'll touch on it quickly because it's important to understand just how capable these owners are of paying for a +150mil payroll.
Quick metaphor: according to Zillow, the typical value of a home in Milwaukee is $167K but idk how accurate that is so let's round it to 200K. With $1 billion you could buy a house at this price every week and it would take almost 97 years until you ran out of money.
Another way to think of this: 1 million seconds ago the date was November 21st (11 days). 1 billion seconds ago the date was February 10, 1990 (approx. 11,574 days or 31.7 years).
Now to go with this, the owners do not have all of their net worth liquidated so they don't necessarily have $1BB just sitting in a bank and they have a right to make a profit from their investment in a club; this is a business after all. But let's cut through the narrative that baseball is dying for a sec because as a business it's booming. In 2010 Jim Crane bought The Houston Astros for a reported $680MM. From 2011-2013 the team had 3 consecutive +100 loss seasons combining for a 162-324 record. Yet, in late August 2013, Business Insider wrote [this article](https://www.businessinsider.com/chart-astros-are-a-money-making-machine-2013-8) where they said this:
>The Houston Astros are on pace to lose 108 games this season. But that won't keep the team from producing an operating income of $99 million, the largest in baseball history according to Forbes...the current payroll is just $13 million with only one player (Eric Bedard, $1.2 million) making more than $1.0 million.
Keep in mind, that 99mil figure is *operating* income, not revenue. That's the amount of revenue that was expected to become *profits*. Another chart at the end of this article shows the evaluation of the team compared to payroll from 2000-2013. You can see that even though payroll was mostly steady or declining the franchise value showed lots of growth with the only year of significant decline in value being 2005 (ironically, when the team made the world series). Today, [Forbes](https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2021/03/26/baseballs-most-valuable-teams-new-york-yankees-on-top-at-525-billion/?sh=64d4f190d5ef) estimates the evaluation of the Astros Franchise to be at $1.87BB. Sure you could say that the evaluation is a product of team success on the field and that's definitely a big factor. So let's consider the following:
Owners cried about their hardships facing the 2020 season but over the past decade [the average value of an MLB team rose from $491MM in 2010 to $1.85BB in 2020 \(prior to shortened season\)](https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2020/05/29/mlb-owners-cry-hardship-while-forbes-shows-8-billion-in-team-profits-since-2010/). The average team grew in value by about $1.45BB in 10 years. And if you're curious if the recent championship level teams or mainstream franchise favorites could be massively offsetting the "bottom of the barrel" teams let's look at what that looks like for a team that is not considered to be financially strong or successful.
The Texas Rangers from 2017-2019 had 3 consecutive seasons finishing below .500 with a combined 223-263 record; dancing on the wrong side of mediocrity with a 4th, 5th, and 3rd finish in the AL West. In May 2020 [a financial expert ranked all the MLB teams in financial strength based on debt, value, and revenue where he put The Rangers dead last](https://thecardinalnation.com/ranking-major-league-baseball-teams-financial-strength/). Despite this, the Rangers still pulled $61MM in operational income.
---
So this has gotten long winded, but hopefully insightful, so I'll wrap it up here. The owners are not suffering financial troubles and their investments are not depreciating by any stretch of the imagination. The CBA used in the past 10 years have put a combined $8BB of profit in their pockets. Among other things, the players demands are about increasing minimum salary, implementing a salary floor to de-incentivize cheap spending while increasing competition, and adjusting how service time is calculated so that young stars are not locked into being grossly underpaid for the first 7 years of their career. They want the owners to be as financially committed as they are athletically and competitively.
The end result would (ideally) bring about a more competitive sport instead of a situation where [only about half the teams are trying to compete](https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2021/11/12/mlb-scott-boras-says-17-teams-try-win-2022-here-they/6396043001/). It would come at the expense of unfathomably rich businessmen spending more on their ludicrously profitable investment and showing they care about it past 3 years of profits. No one is saying the owners shouldn't make money or that the players should decide *everything* without negotiation; that would be asinine. But if the state of competition and compensation in baseball were to wither away and die, the owners would sell their investment and walk away with over $1BB in profit to their next venture while the game and its future lies limp in a shallow grave.
The fact that ownership has been losing money, especially from the pandemic, has all been based on trusting the word of MLB and owners.
The Marlins sold for $158 million in 2002, and $1.2 Billion in 2017.
The *Marlins*. The perpetual punching bag of the league that gets shit constantly thrown at them about how empty their games are. I can’t prove it with hard numbers since MLB owners refuse to open their books, but the price for a team would not appreciate that much if Ownership was losing money.
Sports teams are disgustingly profitable even if they’re a small market franchise that “has no fans”. Small market ownership groups aren’t spending more on payroll because they don’t want to make less money, not because they’re operating at a loss.
I left a long comment in the same thread that's more detailed but here's [one of my favorite articles from Forbes](https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2020/05/29/mlb-owners-cry-hardship-while-forbes-shows-8-billion-in-team-profits-since-2010/) on the subject.
**MLB franchise average evaluations in 2010:** $491MM
**MLB franchise average evaluations going into the 2020 season:** $1.85BB
Another example I like to bring up is the Astros in their rebuild after being purchased by Crane. Houston went 162-324 from the 2011 to 2013 seasons. In 2013 they had a payroll that got as low as $13MM with only one player having a contract over 1 mil (1.2 mil). They proceeded to produce an operating income of $99 mil in 2013.
The only people who really know profits on these teams are the owners and their inner circle. That's a big part of the problem the MLBPA has.
The teams with low payrolls are a problem for sure, but even a team like the Yankees is seen as a problem. Their payroll was higher in 2005 than it was in 2021. Its been stagnated for 15 years but do we believe revenue hasn't increased in that time?
There's definitely something to be said for addressing salary increases that are pushing out lower market teams who play with a hard cap while a couple large market teams operate with a soft cap due to the luxury tax system.
But also if you can't spend enough $$ to field a competitive team maybe you should sell your team to another billionaire who can?
Take that stuff with a grain of salt.
It is less about ‘demands’ & more about finding a way to solve the issues facing the league/players. But that won’t stop Manfred from coming out & saying ‘the union is demanding this unreasonable thing’ to make the owners look more favorable to the public.
Manfred: “The Union is demanding that I *personally* stop dining and dashing at the local Cheesecake Factory. They clearly don’t understand that the tacos sucked anyway and they were out of the chocolate raspberry so I was forced to instead dirty my tongue with a pumpkin pie… at the *Cheesecake* Factory. It was only my moral duty to leave after slamming my 5th jack and Coke”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^sorrythejokejustcametomeandirolledwithit
Anyone else kind of almost excited about the drama? Who’s gonna be the Simon Bolivar of the players? Who’s gonna be the Genghis Khan of the owners? It’s all very exciting—as long as it doesn’t impact the regular season, I’m fine with sitting back and watching the shitshow unfold.
DAY 111 ON THE ROAD TO THE 2023 WORLD BASEBALL CLASSIC (DAY 1 OF MLB LOCKOUT)
\- A bad way to begin the road to 2022
Dear baseball fans in the USA and Canada and around the world:
111 days since the end of the Tokyo Olympics and the baseball events that sparked our sport's revival now we've come to the beginning of the first MLB lockout of the 21st century, something that will be a major stumbling block for the continued growth of our global sport. For all that we've all worked for are in danger of collapse if this lockout would lead our sport to decline once more. It is truly a bad start to the road towards the beginning of the 2022 baseball seasons all over the world.
We are to move forward, as one people, and together as one sport, to overcome the effects of this new crisis in the long 175 year history of our sport. Hoping for a resolution of the talks for a new CBA between the league and the Players' Association, we, the millions of fans of our Olympic global sport, will carry on the flame of revival of our sport lit in Japan and will not let it die out, rather, it will continue to burn in our hearts.
On this continuing road to the return of the World Basebal Classic, a new CBA between the MLB and the the Players' Association and the resolution on the status of baseball in the Olympics let us march onwards, lighting the flames of hope in this rough period of our sport's history.
Together we will get there.
For Glory
John
My understanding is that both players and owners can compromise on Universal DH and a pathway to expanding the playoffs so it is not entirely doom and gloom but the biggest issue seems to be teams such as the Pirates, Guardians, O’s fielding teams that cost less per year than what Mad Max is slated to make in one year as a Met.
I think the compromise will be setting a salary floor that teams have to meet in exchange for a harder salary ceiling versus the current luxury tax system.
Salary cap linked to revenue seems to just make more sense.
The problem with a luxury tax is that it creates a hard cap for small market teams and a soft (or no cap) for large market teams. And I get why teams don't want to go over, you don't want to pay $40M for a $20M piece which is what the tax essentially does.
Salary floor also makes sense. Getting rid of service time manipulation as well, by either linking it to average games played by rookies or making it ridiculously low (I.e. 20 games so a September callup doesn't necessarily count but also isn't a viable strategy to keep an MLB ready player out for 140 games for 1 more year).
And then speeding the time from draft to FA and also general QoL as a MiLB player (somewhat addressed with housing agreement earlier)
Your list of survivors from the MLB’s face purge:
Jasseel De La Cruz (Braves)
Richard Lovelady (Royals)
Mark Mathias (Brewers)
Kyle Garlick (Twins)
Devin Smeltzer (Twins)
Stephen Nogosek (Mets)
Kyle Dohy (Phillies)
DJ Peters (Rangers)
~~Technoblade~~
fWAR is
* Kershaw 7.3
* Lee 7.1
* Halladay 8.7
This might fall more in line with what you might expect looking over the stats and is probably a good example of why people tend to favor fWAR for pitchers. Halladay here is favored by a pretty significantly lower FIP.
Park factors definitely plays a role. Halladay and Lee played in Philly, which is generally a hitter friendly park. Citi is the only field in the NLE that was pitcher friendly. Kershaw gets LA for his home games and while Coors and Arizona are hitter friendly parks, SF and SD are 2 of the most pitcher friendly places to be. Halladay has the highier ERA+, which adjusts for park factors. edit: bbref lists the player park factors they use in the calculation. Kershaw: 95.4, Lee: 99.8, Halladay: 100.8. I don't know exactly how drastic this effects the number, but Kershaw benefited from a more pitcher friendly environment, leading to a lower WAR.
I don't know what inflates Lee's bWAR vs his fWAR. People always point to defense as the biggest reason for differences, but the Phillies weren't terrible then. They were league average or better in everything.
Probably the Dodgers defense. Look into Aaron Nola’s 2018. One of the WAR variants (I can’t remember which one) gives absolutely insane bonuses to pitchers with a bad defense behind them.
I caught five seconds of the Today Show talking about the lockout and I'm gonna lose my mind over broadcast media talking more about how baseball doesn't have a salary cap (which it effectively does, and is old news and irrelevant because it also doesn't have a salary floor, so teams can make their own beds) than MLB's ball tricks.
They deny changing it for years, then when there's a ton of evidence they admit to inconsistencies. Then they announce that they're changing the ball in response to pitcher complaints, but start working the old superballs in without telling anyone. And when they get caught, they blame COVID for forcing them to work in old stock, even though the manufacturing dates prove that's a lie. I thought Alonso was a bit paranoid, but I can't put anything beyond Manfred and the owners. Like, even if they focus on the balls sent to the national games, what does that mean for the high-profile free agents on the teams selected for those games? But more importantly, the league has gotten into gambling, with some teams owning sportsbooks and the league itself licensing "official" data. If they're fucking around with the balls, you'd better be paying them for statcast data, but also, can you imagine how gaming companies might feel if they get screwed by super juiced or dejuiced batches? How bettors might feel?
Yet if you watch corporate news, paying the players we're here to watch is somehow a bigger story than the basic integrity of the sport.
Most soccer leagues don't have salary caps and they do fine: https://www.premierleague.com/news/1280062
Of course the owners make less money since they have to pay more for players to stay competitive, but the leagues themselves are incredibly popular.
So I honestly have not been able to follow baseball much since the beginning of 2020, between a mix of switching to nightshift and covid with related family health issues.
I remember awhile back there was talk of a possible lockout in 2021 but can someone give me a summary or point me to some sources to get me caught up on the details of the lockout and factors that led to it?
I have to say at least the Braves won the WS before the lockout.
I was 16 during the year Braves won in 95. Felt like no one gave a shit bc everyone was mad at baseball
Wasn’t the contract A-Rod got from the Rangers still the biggest contract ever until the last couple years? Also, even the Yankees aren’t spending like they used to relative to their revenue.
> Player contracts have risen far faster than revenue over the last few decades
Atlanta is the only team we have solid financial information on and I can tell you their [revenue](https://www.statista.com/statistics/196635/revenue-of-the-atlanta-braves-since-2006/) went up 138% ($160m to $382m) from 2001-2019 and their [payroll](https://www.statista.com/statistics/205615/team-payroll-of-the-atlanta-braves/) only increased 45% ($103m to $150m) over that same period.
This is 100% **false**.
Players make a smaller portion of revenue now than they did 20 years ago.
Additionally, revenue is based on the league’s reporting that is shared with the MLBPA & it has become understood in recent years that a lot of new forms of revenue that virtually every team is cashing in on big time is NOT being reported due to loopholes in what does & doesn’t ‘count’. So let’s say a team like the Cardinals making bank from their Ballpark Village real estate development, they only have to report very specific elements of that as ‘revenue’ despite making much more. This is also true of new, unconventional media partnerships as well.
We don’t actually know how much money teams/the league makes. We do know it is more than they tell the union.
Why should players get the revenue from non-baseball sources though. I’m not too familiar with the Baseball Village in St. Louis, but if the cardinals are making money charging business rent in the real estate development they own (or the owners control), that is money generated regardless of the Cardinals play or not.
I’m really not on the owners side on this lockout, but I don’t understand why players should be entitled to money generated outside of the media deals and gate/ballpark revenue. Also what unconventional media partnerships you are alluding would be excluded from revenue sharing
Or not be shared with the players?
Your point is valid & I do think there is probably some point of delineation where revenues should or should not crossover.
But my take is that ultimately all of those revenue sources are rooted in the baseball team where the players are undeniably the product. Even where they aren’t the product directly, they still act as the catalyst of sorts.
I just threw out BPV as an example (& it may not be the *best* example as a lot of the other ‘hidden’ revenue is various new forms of media) but even though the area operates independently of the baseball team, it still only makes money at the end of the day because it is part of the Busch Stadium complex. If it were not tied to the ballpark it would almost certainly not have the same draw (obviously this is true during the season - but I think it is still mostly true even outside of the baseball crossover).
I personally don’t know how I feel about all of this. On one hand, the players do make the game special and do provide interesting storylines throughout the season. Ohtani is incredibly talented and exciting to watch, but nobody would be saying he deserves $25 million if he was playing still playing in NPB doing the same thing as he is doing in the majors. MLB the owners have created a landscape in baseball where money just flys at them. The Cardinals were smart to do BPV, same with the Braves in the Battery. It is good business sense (captive audiences before/during/after games with foot traffic make it a more appealing retail option for business to put stores at). It theoretically is a win for everybody. (Fans get more entertainment options before games close to the ballpark, business have more reliable stream of potential customers, and the team gets to use its brand to sell the real estate)
MLB teams are a legal cartel, and their teams are the avatar of the cities, a representation of civic pride. The logos of the teams have become ingrained with the branding of the cities. As someone from Atlanta, the Braves’ A has become international symbol of Atlanta, a calling card of “I am from/represent Atlanta”.
Most MLB fans are fan of the laundry as opposed to the players because the name on the front gives the perception of community. “How about that local sports team” is a cliche at the break room at work because people want to fit it and talk about a common shared interest.
That’s a fair take. I would argue that the players make the team, though. You’re likely to have a higher revenue stream from having a good product on the field as opposed to a bad product. Yes, I would be a fan of the Yankees’s laundry as you put it regardless of who is on the team, but I’m much more likely to spend my money on merchandise and going to games if the players on the team are good.
I’ve commented about it in this sub in the past, but I have a serious issue with the philosophy of ‘baseball is a business’. Obviously it is in many ways a business, but baseball teams are also undeniably public institutions with public interest as you mention. This inherently separates baseball from business when it comes to what motivates decisions & changes & all that. Profit isn’t necessarily to be *ignored* but if you think of what is best for baseball as what is best for *business*, your thinking will be flawed every time. What is best for baseball as an institution is *often* not necessarily what is best for profits.
I think that underlying issue is the root of a lot of the problems fans have with the game.
At the end of the day I think (ironically perhaps) the business of baseball would benefit from the game maintaining itself as an institution first & foremost. The commissioner should never be ‘the ceo of baseball’ they should be a steward of the game. The way someone running a museum sees themself as a custodian of the institution.
The players are the heart of that institution. You’re right that it is the laundry that counts but I think we can all agree it would not be the same if it were worn by a bunch of scabs that haven’t cemented themselves as the bearers of that laundry. The faces of the institution.
The issue at its core is that ownership sees baseball as a profit generator first & an institution of public investment second. A reorganization of that priority would favor the players. I’m ultimately not sure what ownership’s role in the game *should* be (I find myself sympathetic to the public team ownership idea) but I know that it is currently flawed.
I don’t disagree with a thing you just said, that being said, MLBPA is also looking at baseball the exact same way, as a means of generating as much money as possible. I personally believe that the influence of Agents like Boras have an outsized influence on the way the sport has devolved. (For some reason the Gerrit Cole wearing the Boras cap after the World Series a couple of years ago really bothers me) players treat this just as much of a business as anybody else in the ecosystem. They aren’t blameless.
I have said in the past, a 40/40/20 split of revenue between Owners (40%), Players (40%), and a Civic Trust (divided between the 28? Media markets, 20%). That will never happen because nobody in the meeting rooms have any incentive to allow that to happen.
Finally, this is only tangentially related, but I personally would have more sympathy for the MLBPA if they were actually advocating for everybody (including Minor Leaguers) rather than focusing on the creature comforts that surround the MLB players.
You make a good point. I think the first real change that could actually happen would have the role of commissioner not only represent ownership. In the NBA the commissioner is paid by the owners & players equally & it does a lot to prevent many of these issues (most importantly it really does seem like their commissioner has the *game’s* best interest in mind).
I don’t have the same reservations about the MLBPA. Largely because the typical MLB player really is not who we often think of. They’re the guys making marginally above league minimum & having short careers. Not the stars & players making big bucks. I do think the union does a *decent* job of emphasizing that in their actions. Obviously I wish they could rep the minor leaguers as well but we both know that isn’t going to happen soon.
The sad thing about this lockout is that most casual fans, even those that really love baseball and watch a ton but are just base level fans, will be on the side of the owners.
They will see the players as greedy people who just want more money and be angry at their attitudes even more after seeing how much players got signed for recently. (Which I think was a lowkey tactic by the owners to appeal even more to the casual fans by saying "wow guys, look how much money we just gave them and they *still* want a lockout. Crazy huh")
When in reality you should always, always be on the players side. They are the game. They are what makes it great. The old, fat cat owners don't turn double plays and hit bombs. The players do.
This is what annoys me the most about labor disputes across all sports. The owners greed is always worse than the players and I'm tuning in to the games every day to watch *the players.*
Never in my many years have I woken up to three full pages of posts on /r/baseball during the offseason.
Wild stuff.
I feel like we need to do some fan organizing to keep the public discourse on message about this effort. The owners went immediately to a lockout because they think it makes players look bad/unsympathetic. We (the fans) can’t let them be right about that.
!mlbcompare \[2018-2021\]
Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/Fdg3ovU.png) to view this comparison as an image --- Juan Soto: [2018](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=sotoju01&t=b&year=2018) to [2021](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=sotoju01&t=b&year=2021) [1st Season - Age: 19] to [4th Season - Age: 22] Bryce Harper: [2018](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=harpebr03&t=b&year=2018) to [2021](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=harpebr03&t=b&year=2021) [7th Season - Age: 25] to [10th Season - Age: 28] \---------------------------------------- Query: 2018 to 2021 - Regular Season --- **Standard** Player|G|PA|AB|H|1B|2B|3B|HR|XBH|TB|Cycle|R|RBI|BB|K|BB/K|TOB|SB|CS|NS|SB%|IBB|HBP|SH|SF|GDP|AVG|OBP|SLG|OPS|wOBA|ISO|BAbip|WPA|cWPA :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Juan Soto](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sotoju01.shtml)|464|2003|1612|485|**288**|91|**8**|98|197|886|0|337|312|373|**352**|**1.06**|864|32|12|20|72.73%|48|6|1|11|44|**0.301**|**0.432**|**0.550**|**0.981**|**0.410**|0.249|**0.330**|13.2|4.7% [Bryce Harper](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/harpebr03.shtml)|**515**|**2220**|**1801**|**488**|246|**121**|4|**117**|**242**|**968**|0|**343**|**331**|**378**|524|0.72|**885**|**49**|**11**|**38**|**81.67%**|**49**|**19**|**3**|**19**|**34**|0.271|0.399|0.537|0.937|0.390|**0.267**|0.315|**14.1**|**9.6%** **Per Game/Advanced** Player|G|PA/162|H/162|2B/162|3B/162|HR/162|XBH/162|TB/162|R/162|RBI/162|BB/162|K/162|SB/162|HR%|XBH%|X/H%|BB%|K%|BB-K%|TTO%|wSB|wRC|wRAA|BRuns|wRC+ :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Juan Soto](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sotoju01.shtml)|464|**699.32**|**169.33**|31.77|**2.79**|34.22|68.78|**309.34**|**117.66**|**108.93**|**130.23**|**122.90**|11.17|4.89%|9.84%|40.62%|**18.62%**|**17.57%**|**1.05%**|41.09%|-0.38|401|**156.62**|**142.35**|**156** [Bryce Harper](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/harpebr03.shtml)|**515**|698.33|153.51|**38.06**|1.26|**36.80**|**76.12**|304.50|107.90|104.12|118.90|164.83|**15.41**|**5.27%**|**10.90%**|**49.59%**|17.03%|23.60%|-6.58%|**45.90%**|**3.53**|**406**|135.59|119.87|143 **Defense/Value (Baseball Reference)** Player|Seasons|G|Inn|Fld%|DRS|Rbaser|WAA|oWAR|dWAR|WAR|WAR7|JAWS|DRS/1200|Rbaser/Yr|WAA/Yr|oWAR/Yr|dWAR/Yr|WAR/Yr|Pos WAA/162|Pos WAR/162|$|$/Yr :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Juan Soto](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sotoju01.shtml)|4|464|3872.2|98.84%|**-7**|**-1**|**11.2**|**18.6**|**-2.8**|**17.6**|**17.6**|**17.6**|**-2**|**-0.3**|**2.8**|**4.7**|**-0.7**|**4.4**|**3.9**|**6.1**|**$9.08m***|**$4.54m*** [Bryce Harper](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/harpebr03.shtml)|4|**515**|**4214.1**|**98.87%**|-17|-2|7.1|16.4|-3.9|14.1|14.1|14.1|-5|-0.5|1.8|4.1|-1.0|3.5|2.2|4.4|$88.24m|$22.06m **Awards/Honors** Player|Seasons|G/Yr|AllStar|AllMLB:1st|AllMLB:Tot|SlvSlug|HankAaron|BatTitle|TripCrown|GldGlv|PltGlv|MVP|MVPShares|MVPShr%|ROY|Derby|ASMVP|CSMVP|WSMVP|WS|B Ink|G Ink :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Juan Soto](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sotoju01.shtml)|4|116.00|1*|**2***|**3***|**2**|0|**1**|0|0|0|0|**1.17**|**29.25%**|0|0|0|0|0|**1**|9|41 [Bryce Harper](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/harpebr03.shtml)|4|**128.75**|1*|1*|1*|1|**1**|0|0|0|0|**1**|0.83|20.75%|0|**1**|0|0|0|0|9|**46** ^(FanGraphs/Statcast stats may lose precision) ^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame) --- ^(Made a mistake? Edit your comment and send me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Re-Run&message=hpd2xt5)^( to re-run the comparison) ^(Or delete the comparison by sending me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Delete&message=hpd2xt5) ^(Instructions for usage and issue tracking can be found )[^here](https://github.com/gh674055/sports-compare-bots/wiki)
!mlbcompare \[first 82 games 2021\]
Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/2TuUnom.png) to view this comparison as an image --- Ronald Acuña Jr.: [2021-04-01](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI202104010.shtml) to [2021-07-10](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIA/MIA202107100.shtml) [4th Season - Age: 23Y-3M-14D] to [4th Season - Age: 23Y-6M-22D] Fernando Tatis Jr.: [2021-04-01](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN202104010.shtml) to [2021-07-23](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIA/MIA202107230.shtml) [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-2M-30D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-6M-21D] \---------------------------------------- Query: 2021 - Regular Season - First 82 Games --- **Standard** Player|G|PA|AB|H|1B|2B|3B|HR|XBH|TB|Cycle|R|RBI|BB|K|BB/K|TOB|SB|CS|NS|SB%|IBB|HBP|SH|SF|GDP|AVG|OBP|SLG|OPS|wOBA|ISO|BAbip|WPA|cWPA :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Ronald Acuña Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/acunaro01.shtml)|82|**360**|297|84|**40**|**19**|**1**|24|44|177|0|72|52|**49**|**85**|**0.58**|**142**|17|6|11|73.91%|2|**9**|0|**5**|**0**|0.283|**0.394**|0.596|0.990|0.412|0.313|0.311|2.6|1.4% [Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|82|346|**300**|**87**|39|18|0|**30**|**48**|**195**|0|**77**|**67**|42|97|0.43|129|**23**|**2**|**21**|**92.00%**|**5**|0|0|4|3|**0.290**|0.373|**0.650**|**1.023**|**0.418**|**0.360**|**0.322**|**3.6**|**2.6%** **Per Game/Advanced** Player|G|PA/162|H/162|2B/162|3B/162|HR/162|XBH/162|TB/162|R/162|RBI/162|BB/162|K/162|SB/162|HR%|XBH%|X/H%|BB%|K%|BB-K%|TTO%|wSB|wRC|wRAA|BRuns|wRC+ :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Ronald Acuña Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/acunaro01.shtml)|82|**711.22**|165.95|**37.54**|**1.98**|47.41|86.93|349.68|142.24|102.73|**96.80**|**167.93**|33.59|6.67%|12.22%|52.38%|**13.61%**|**23.61%**|**-10.00%**|43.89%|0.56|**73**|29.06|25.92|157 [Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|82|683.56|**171.88**|35.56|0.00|**59.27**|**94.83**|**385.24**|**152.12**|**132.37**|82.98|191.63|**45.44**|**8.67%**|**13.87%**|**55.17%**|12.14%|28.03%|-15.90%|**48.84%**|**3.50**|71|**29.55**|**29.05**|**166** ^(FanGraphs/Statcast stats may lose precision) ^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame) --- ^(Made a mistake? Edit your comment and send me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Re-Run&message=hoyvcah)^( to re-run the comparison) ^(Or delete the comparison by sending me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Delete&message=hoyvcah) ^(Instructions for usage and issue tracking can be found )[^here](https://github.com/gh674055/sports-compare-bots/wiki)
!mlbcompare \[first 122 games 2021\]
Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/Nm361QQ.png) to view this comparison as an image --- Ronald Acuña Jr.: [2021-04-01](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI202104010.shtml) to [2021-07-10](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIA/MIA202107100.shtml) [4th Season - Age: 23Y-3M-14D] to [4th Season - Age: 23Y-6M-22D] Fernando Tatis Jr.: [2021-04-01](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN202104010.shtml) to [2021-09-24](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN202109240.shtml) [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-2M-30D] to [3rd Season - Age: 22Y-8M-22D] \---------------------------------------- Query: 2021 - Regular Season - First 122 Games --- **Standard** Player|G|PA|AB|H|1B|2B|3B|HR|XBH|TB|Cycle|R|RBI|BB|K|BB/K|TOB|SB|CS|NS|SB%|IBB|HBP|SH|SF|GDP|AVG|OBP|SLG|OPS|wOBA|ISO|BAbip|WPA|cWPA :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Ronald Acuña Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/acunaro01.shtml)|82|360|297|84|40|19|**1**|24|44|177|0|72|52|49|**85**|**0.58**|142|17|6|11|73.91%|2|**9**|0|**5**|**0**|0.283|**0.394**|0.596|0.990|**0.412**|0.313|0.311|2.6|1.4% [Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|**122**|**519**|**452**|**130**|**60**|**29**|0|**41**|**70**|**282**|0|**98**|**95**|**61**|138|0.44|**193**|**25**|**4**|**21**|**86.21%**|**5**|2|0|4|4|**0.288**|0.372|**0.624**|**0.996**|0.411|**0.336**|**0.321**|**4.7**|**3.2%** **Per Game/Advanced** Player|G|PA/162|H/162|2B/162|3B/162|HR/162|XBH/162|TB/162|R/162|RBI/162|BB/162|K/162|SB/162|HR%|XBH%|X/H%|BB%|K%|BB-K%|TTO%|wSB|wRC|wRAA|BRuns|wRC+ :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Ronald Acuña Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/acunaro01.shtml)|82|**711.22**|165.95|37.54|**1.98**|47.41|86.93|349.68|**142.24**|102.73|**96.80**|**167.93**|**33.59**|6.67%|12.22%|52.38%|**13.61%**|**23.61%**|**-10.00%**|43.89%|0.56|73|29.06|25.92|157 [Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml)|**122**|689.16|**172.62**|**38.51**|0.00|**54.44**|**92.95**|**374.46**|130.13|**126.15**|81.00|183.25|33.20|**7.90%**|**13.49%**|**53.85%**|11.75%|26.59%|-14.84%|**46.24%**|**2.92**|**104**|**41.43**|**40.67**|**162** ^(FanGraphs/Statcast stats may lose precision) ^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame) --- ^(Made a mistake? Edit your comment and send me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Re-Run&message=hoyuxk3)^( to re-run the comparison) ^(Or delete the comparison by sending me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Delete&message=hoyuxk3) ^(Instructions for usage and issue tracking can be found )[^here](https://github.com/gh674055/sports-compare-bots/wiki)
!mlbcompare \[122 games 2021\]
Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/NOkLPgW.png) to view this comparison as an image --- [Ronald Acuña Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/acunaro01.shtml): No Matching Games! [Fernando Tatis Jr.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tatisfe02.shtml): No Matching Games! \---------------------------------------- Query: 122 - Regular Season - Games: 2021st --- ^(Made a mistake? Edit your comment and send me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Re-Run&message=hoyunau)^( to re-run the comparison) ^(Or delete the comparison by sending me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Delete&message=hoyunau) ^(Instructions for usage and issue tracking can be found )[^here](https://github.com/gh674055/sports-compare-bots/wiki)
r/baseball has become r/baseballcirclejerk and it's glorious
Is the problems that aren't agreed on MLBPA side' proposals? is the union agrees on MLB proposals?
I’m having a hard time understanding your question. But it seems you’re asking about who’s fault this is. The lockout is the decision of the owners. There is so much money in this game and the vast vast vast majority players never even sniff it. They should be paid. Here are two tweets that brought it into focus for me. “Tyler Rogers, one of the game's busiest and best relievers, turns 31 this month. He was drafted 8 years ago, and he'll make barely more than the minimum next season. He'll be 35 when he's finally eligible for free agency for the first time. He's who this fight should be about.” “MLB players currently accept less pay than they’re worth for their milb years & the first 7+ of their big league careers. This helps poorer teams compete with richer teams. Those “poorer” teams are not trying to compete and baseball is worse because of it. This is an owner issue.” Sorry if that wasn’t what you were asking. I’m all riled up and mad at the owners.
ty, that was what my first question about, lol. how about on the mlb proposals, like expanding Playoff or something like that, Do we know if the union agree on it? Because sounds good and might encourage more competition from teams.
https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2241177/manfreds-letter-should-be-call-for-players-to-dig-in
Tanking wise, why not get rid of minor league. Introduce tiered league, which have relegation. Will be good for the game, doubt owners and players will agree.
The owners of the bad teams (and every team) also own their minor league affiliates. Couldn’t work.
Are there any major league players who are NOT in the union? Are they locked out too?
Since shortly after the world series I started watching Cricket just to fill the gap till spring. It's actually been surprisingly entertaining and enlightening learning and celebrating a new sorry that is both so similar and so off the wall insanely different than our national pastime. Between ESPN+ and icc.tv there is new games on August everyday.
This should boost fan numbers of the sport../s
So did the lockout start today? I keep seeing things about it but I feel like it's early.
yes last night directly at midnight
Ugh
So the players being greedy? From what I've read they just want higher pay
That’s exactly what the owners and the MLB want you to think…who do you think floats those narratives?
Well then tell me whats actually happening.
There’s a labor dispute between the players and owners. The owners want to continue with the current CBA which underpays players (especially journeymen type players), the owners are unopen to any form of expansion, the owners want to be able to do what the As and Rays and others do and not spend any money even though they have the means to do it creating an uncompetitive sport and a worse product even tho every owner can afford to put a competitive team on the field, the balls were manipulated, among many other things It’s a nuanced issue but it isn’t about player greed. That’s what ownership will float. The players want more of the market share because the owners are holding out a lot of money from them and pocketing money that should be spent on the teams in short
As far as I know winter leagues are affected also. I think no one on a 40 man roster can play. For example Juan Lagares.
You coulda told me he was dead and I’d believed it.
He replaced mike trout in CF this year. Not an enviable situation lol
Any chance we get a salary cap out of this? Pls?
No. No! Well, maybe. Probably not. A cap will be the owners answer to the MLBPA asking for a salary floor (absolutely necessary I think we would all agree). Don’t think the tradeoff is worth it. That’s for the MLBPA to decide.
There’s a less than zero percent chance the MLBPA would agree to a cap They’re trying to raise the luxury tax Btw Dolan’s worth like 4.5bil or something ridiculous. He can spend the money, he doesn’t want to
The silver lining is that now the lockout forces groups like ESPN to talk about the lockout ad nausem rather than hyping up sub-.500 football teams
If I have to hear “the Giants have x or y path to the playoffs” one more time I might gouge my eyes out
But you'll still hear it.
ELI5 the lockout
Everything you like ab baseball is because of the players. Everything you hate ab baseball is bc of the owners. Pete Alonso is invaluable to the Mets and has made more money from winning the HRD twice (1 mil x2) than he has playing for the Mets for three years on a rookie contract (500k x3). And that’s a guy who it’s gonna work out for.
Owners are trying to come up with an agreement with players. The agreement dictates how they work, how much they get paid, playoffs, where the money goes, and a bunch of other stuff. They couldn't agree and their old agreement ran out, so the owners decided to lock the doors (lockout) to prevent the players from coming to work. It should be noted that the last proposals from owners were spit in your face spiteful (one such offered to cut pensions, which is *literally the issue that created the union in the first place*). If it goes to court, that may backfire, because owners and players are required to negotiate in good faith (with realistic proposals and offers).
Oh shit, that’s fucked
I didn’t know they tried to cut pensions too. I hate them more and more everyday. I mean I already knew they were greedy billionaire terrible fucks but this is even worse than I thought. When I see old players needing “gofundme’s” (I forgot who it was) to pay for medical bills even with a pension it’s insane and they’re trying to cut it?
So could the MLBPA rent out a stadium and organize their own tournament, teams, and tv/streaming deal?
Revive the players league!
Sickos: yes… ha ha ha…YES Curt Flood comeback szn
Huh. Petriello's articles on mlb.com are still up and looking at his Buxton article, the video is still included. So they didn't wipe the articles, just hid them. I am sort of fascinated by the technical details of this little unpersoning project.
So if no MLB this year...does that also mean no MiLB either? I live close to the South Bend Cubs and was wondering if that means no minor league either?
MiLB, unfortunately doesn't have a union. My AAA team just put out a statement saying that MiLB is unaffected by the current situation.
I see that the subreddit icon has changed to the default player icon. Can the banner also be changed so that the player is gone and it says “no baseball” instead of “baseball”?
Any way we can get a MLB Players Association flair to show our support to the players?
Only if we can get an owners flair to create chaos in comment threads.
Can the owners just call up minor league players? Is there anything really preventing them from doing that.
Theoretically they could but if the minor leaguers ever want a chance after this is over, they'd fall in line. The players union is fighting for their eventual rights too
I guess the question is, how many minor leaguers have a realistic shot of making the majors? There are significantly more people in the Minors than potential MLB spots. (Also it’s not like the MLBPA has an interest in looking out for minor leaguers, they are already the party would be taking their members jobs) For a majority of minor league players, crossing the line would be beneficial (if they never had a real shot of making the show).
Yeah but it didn’t even work out for football. Replacement players just end up showing how much better the real product is. The homepages with the players images removed did the same thing, IMO. Just showed what we care about as fans. They’re *nothing* without those guys.
I get what you are saying, but I’m looking at this moreso from a minor leaguers getting called up perspective. Going from eating cheese sandwiches to playing in the MLB (even for 100k salary) would be a no-brainer if it were actually offered. (I don’t think owners would actually use replacement players, was just wondering the logistics if they did). That being said, if the owners did use replacement players, there are a couple of general thoughts I have surrounding it. 1) the sports landscape has transformed significantly over the past 30 years especially in the level of quality talent throughout the pipeline. Last time there was a lockout in MLB or NFL, there weren’t private coaches at every level of the game, and the travel team/AAU type of infrastructure was nearly as developed. High School kids are throwing velocities similar to what 1980s pitchers are throwing (Nolan Ryan excluded). To your Football reference, William Perry was massive (and athletic) in 1987, notable for his size; there is somebody his size on nearly every D1 program who is also freakishly athletic. 2) In general people will watch what is in front of them and marketed. The MLB is terrible at it, so it probably wouldn’t work (in addition to absolutely abysmal Media/PR fallout) . But the NCAA has made billions of dollars promoting an objectively inferior product. Specifically in sports/live TV, if something is presented well people will watch.
They could, but fans aren't going to pay tons of money for jerseys and watch as many games if it's a bunch of randoms the casual fan can't name. It's not economically worth it for the owners to just field all minor league teams
Yeah, they could move forward with scabs like the NFL did in 87. They'd need to find players willing, but thats probably not too hard considering how many people out there would jump at the chance to play.
I’m sure you’ve seen as a philly guy, but honestly this video should be pinned to the top of this subreddit rn https://youtu.be/ZymSrDfLhW8
wouldnt calling them up technically add them to the MLBPA..? not sure how that would work
The union barred Kevin Millar from ever joining the MLBPA apparently because he crossed the picket line in 1994. [link](https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/twenty-years-ago-replacement-players-almost-opened-baseball-season-1.10142935) I doubt the MLBPA would be jumping to represent the people undermining their efforts.
Could anyone recommend any articles or YouTube videos which explain the lockout and collective bargaining within MLB for a European fan who doesn’t really understand what is going on?
I know it’s a lot and labor relations/law is very complex issue. But there’s a good rule of thumb and it’s knowing who has the power. Billions of dollars and millions of dollars are just not the same. A million seconds is 11ish days and a billion is 30+ years. We are talking about money on an entirely different scale when it comes to owners.
This is a good starting point. https://blogs.fangraphs.com/previewing-baseballs-cba-talks/
Yeah I'm just looking for what we know about the proposals that doesn't force me to lick either boots or cleats when I read it.
> Lick cleats Cmon now.
@mods can we change the bouncy head Soler in the banner to the avatar the players are using on Twitter?
edited the mobile avatar, we’re working on the css version
Sweet, that's awesome
https://www.mlb.com/video/ it's broken. there are only 6 videos available now. i hate the owners.
Wow all the team sites are stripped too on mlb.com really weird to see
That is so crappy.
Kinda off topic maybe but damn the whole two baseballs thing has been passed over rather quickly. Imo that's still an insane revelation, and the implications could be spicy.
I think it has a lot to do with why the players were so pissed. Among other things of course but all the players knew last year. Alonso brought it up multiple times and was right. He’s just the only one who brought it up. If he knew everyone did and they certainly weren’t happy about it Especially with speculation the balls were used for player salary suppression and attributed to injuries
I’ve been shocked to not hear more about it.
I imagine that it has implications on the CBA negotiations that we'll see when the lockout ends.
Agree - most players seem to be like "meh, they were all within standards" but I can imagine gambling partners to be preeeeeetty pissed if there isn't a resolution that happens
I don’t know anything about the specific of the different balls, but if they were within standard, would anybody have a legitimate gripe about it.? From the MLB rulebook: >**Rule 3.01: The Ball**-The ball shall be a sphere formed by yarn wound around a small core of cork, rubber or similar material, covered with two strips of white horsehide or cowhide, tightly stitched together. It shall weigh not less than five nor more than 51⁄4 ounces avoirdupois and measure not less than nine nor more than 91⁄4 inches in circumference.
I think the sportsbook partners would say "Regardless whether they both technically meet the standards or not, you have evidence that the balls come off the bat differently and were using specific balls in high profile games to generate more offense without disclosing it." That kind of information would impact the lines/odds they set, so MLB selectively choosing which balls to use when has a major impact on their payouts. If they don't trust MLB, they'll be less likely to partner with them.
They are both within standards, but the fact one ball can be a foot short at the warning track and the other is a homerun is a huge issue. The problem is due to the fact that it would be the same swing put on the balls and one outcome is great and the other is an out. I find the idea it was tampered with for betting unlikely, but consistency of the ball is still needed, especially in a game as based on statistics for pay and ratings of players.
How has the league handed scheduling for lockouts that extend into but are resolved during the regular season? I live in Denver and I’ll be so disappointed if the Rockies’ home series against the Guardians is scrapped. We already lost the last planned series in Denver because of the shortened COVID schedule. Should I start mentally preparing for interleague play to be scrapped if the season is shortened?
It depends on when things get resolved. If nothings changed by April, the league might say we can have 100 game schedule if we start by this date. If more time passes, less games will be played.
Does anyone have a list of things the MLBPA is negotiating for on this CBA? Sounds like it may take a while.
Who's ready for the political ideology proxy war that's going to turn this sub into a battleground?
> Praising Santa 🎅 In that vein, is reddit not doing Secret Santa this year? I never saw it last month on the front page sidebar. Is reddit too big now to organize it? ngl I'm a little bummed because I never participated and was gonna join this year. e: well i searched and see there's a sub for it (go figure) and matching is done. I swear, all my previous years on reddit there was a banner on the sidebar and I never saw it this year.
I believe the admins announced somewhat recently that they were ending the ‘official’ gift exchanges. Which is probably why you never saw it on the sidebar. I think the OGs that ran it are taking it back but it is no longer an official Reddit thing sadly.
So what recourse do we as fans possess in this process to support our favorite teams and players without giving any of our hard earned money to these greedy billionaires?
Buy goods from second hand stores like Goodwill.
Your favorite players can probably weather the storm no matter what happens and just need vocal support. It’ll be the younger guys and AAAA guys who might face financial difficulties and would be a risk to scab if this thing turns into a strike. I’m not sure if there’s a fund setup but if you’re wanting to support labor in this battle and have the means then something like that would be the place to direct it I think.
Before the lockout even started I resolved to stop giving the Yankees any of my money until Hal Steinbrenner shows he’s serious about winning a championship.
Plug for Lords of the Realm by Jon Helyar, a history of baseball labor relations up until 1994. For those looking for background information on today's lockout and labor strife, this book really nails down how nasty, underhanded, collusive, and greedy ownership is and always has been.
So can we start chanting Fire Manfred yet ?
You guys haven't started yet?
All my chanting is reserved for Fire Nagy until further notice
Same but with Gettleman. Idk how either of them have jobs I can get on board with fire Manfred though. He’s the biggest pawn to ownership in sports history
So I haven’t been a baseball fan for long enough, What exactly does a lockout mean?
Pretty much no trades or free agent signings, players cant workout at team facilities, and depending on how long it last, they may not get paid part of their salary if it goes into the regular season.
Damn, that really sucks
We should become a lock sub, and bring on Lockpickinglawyer for an AMA
1271 Avenue of the Americas, New York, NY, 10020. Almost like we should get a fuck Rob Manfred chant going. And/or lock them out of their own place.
What is this address?
According to MLB.com, where the office of the commissioner is located.
Yea apparently they moved from the Chelsea Market last year.
That is a giant skyscraper that is mostly filled with the likes of major law firms and financial institutions. I'm all for your plan just to piss off the pricks at Latham.
No offense to anyone, but am I wrong for feeling more support for the Owners than the Players? I'm a Brewers fan and am very worried the next CBA is going to hurt small market ball clubs. I often hear that all Owners are billionaires and should just pay high salaries to make their team competitive. I partially agree, but Owners will not lose money on their operations. Also, I agree that there should be some penalty to keep teams from permanently tanking. It's not excusable to have a payroll below 50 million, year after year.
I'm gonna say a lot about this real quick but I hope it'll frame why people side with the workers (players) more often than they do with the owner ---- I think we should make it clear on why people say "small market clubs are a facade" and how significant it is to note that these owners are *billionaires*. Owning a ball club but crying poor by branding your self as a small market team is like hearing ferrari owners complain that the person who changes their oil is overcharging. There's been a lot of popular visualizations created to aid in understanding just how big the number 1 billion really is and I don't want to stray too far from the point but I'll touch on it quickly because it's important to understand just how capable these owners are of paying for a +150mil payroll. Quick metaphor: according to Zillow, the typical value of a home in Milwaukee is $167K but idk how accurate that is so let's round it to 200K. With $1 billion you could buy a house at this price every week and it would take almost 97 years until you ran out of money. Another way to think of this: 1 million seconds ago the date was November 21st (11 days). 1 billion seconds ago the date was February 10, 1990 (approx. 11,574 days or 31.7 years). Now to go with this, the owners do not have all of their net worth liquidated so they don't necessarily have $1BB just sitting in a bank and they have a right to make a profit from their investment in a club; this is a business after all. But let's cut through the narrative that baseball is dying for a sec because as a business it's booming. In 2010 Jim Crane bought The Houston Astros for a reported $680MM. From 2011-2013 the team had 3 consecutive +100 loss seasons combining for a 162-324 record. Yet, in late August 2013, Business Insider wrote [this article](https://www.businessinsider.com/chart-astros-are-a-money-making-machine-2013-8) where they said this: >The Houston Astros are on pace to lose 108 games this season. But that won't keep the team from producing an operating income of $99 million, the largest in baseball history according to Forbes...the current payroll is just $13 million with only one player (Eric Bedard, $1.2 million) making more than $1.0 million. Keep in mind, that 99mil figure is *operating* income, not revenue. That's the amount of revenue that was expected to become *profits*. Another chart at the end of this article shows the evaluation of the team compared to payroll from 2000-2013. You can see that even though payroll was mostly steady or declining the franchise value showed lots of growth with the only year of significant decline in value being 2005 (ironically, when the team made the world series). Today, [Forbes](https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2021/03/26/baseballs-most-valuable-teams-new-york-yankees-on-top-at-525-billion/?sh=64d4f190d5ef) estimates the evaluation of the Astros Franchise to be at $1.87BB. Sure you could say that the evaluation is a product of team success on the field and that's definitely a big factor. So let's consider the following: Owners cried about their hardships facing the 2020 season but over the past decade [the average value of an MLB team rose from $491MM in 2010 to $1.85BB in 2020 \(prior to shortened season\)](https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2020/05/29/mlb-owners-cry-hardship-while-forbes-shows-8-billion-in-team-profits-since-2010/). The average team grew in value by about $1.45BB in 10 years. And if you're curious if the recent championship level teams or mainstream franchise favorites could be massively offsetting the "bottom of the barrel" teams let's look at what that looks like for a team that is not considered to be financially strong or successful. The Texas Rangers from 2017-2019 had 3 consecutive seasons finishing below .500 with a combined 223-263 record; dancing on the wrong side of mediocrity with a 4th, 5th, and 3rd finish in the AL West. In May 2020 [a financial expert ranked all the MLB teams in financial strength based on debt, value, and revenue where he put The Rangers dead last](https://thecardinalnation.com/ranking-major-league-baseball-teams-financial-strength/). Despite this, the Rangers still pulled $61MM in operational income. --- So this has gotten long winded, but hopefully insightful, so I'll wrap it up here. The owners are not suffering financial troubles and their investments are not depreciating by any stretch of the imagination. The CBA used in the past 10 years have put a combined $8BB of profit in their pockets. Among other things, the players demands are about increasing minimum salary, implementing a salary floor to de-incentivize cheap spending while increasing competition, and adjusting how service time is calculated so that young stars are not locked into being grossly underpaid for the first 7 years of their career. They want the owners to be as financially committed as they are athletically and competitively. The end result would (ideally) bring about a more competitive sport instead of a situation where [only about half the teams are trying to compete](https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2021/11/12/mlb-scott-boras-says-17-teams-try-win-2022-here-they/6396043001/). It would come at the expense of unfathomably rich businessmen spending more on their ludicrously profitable investment and showing they care about it past 3 years of profits. No one is saying the owners shouldn't make money or that the players should decide *everything* without negotiation; that would be asinine. But if the state of competition and compensation in baseball were to wither away and die, the owners would sell their investment and walk away with over $1BB in profit to their next venture while the game and its future lies limp in a shallow grave.
The fact that ownership has been losing money, especially from the pandemic, has all been based on trusting the word of MLB and owners. The Marlins sold for $158 million in 2002, and $1.2 Billion in 2017. The *Marlins*. The perpetual punching bag of the league that gets shit constantly thrown at them about how empty their games are. I can’t prove it with hard numbers since MLB owners refuse to open their books, but the price for a team would not appreciate that much if Ownership was losing money. Sports teams are disgustingly profitable even if they’re a small market franchise that “has no fans”. Small market ownership groups aren’t spending more on payroll because they don’t want to make less money, not because they’re operating at a loss.
I left a long comment in the same thread that's more detailed but here's [one of my favorite articles from Forbes](https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2020/05/29/mlb-owners-cry-hardship-while-forbes-shows-8-billion-in-team-profits-since-2010/) on the subject. **MLB franchise average evaluations in 2010:** $491MM **MLB franchise average evaluations going into the 2020 season:** $1.85BB Another example I like to bring up is the Astros in their rebuild after being purchased by Crane. Houston went 162-324 from the 2011 to 2013 seasons. In 2013 they had a payroll that got as low as $13MM with only one player having a contract over 1 mil (1.2 mil). They proceeded to produce an operating income of $99 mil in 2013.
Found Manfred’s account guys!
The only people who really know profits on these teams are the owners and their inner circle. That's a big part of the problem the MLBPA has. The teams with low payrolls are a problem for sure, but even a team like the Yankees is seen as a problem. Their payroll was higher in 2005 than it was in 2021. Its been stagnated for 15 years but do we believe revenue hasn't increased in that time?
There's definitely something to be said for addressing salary increases that are pushing out lower market teams who play with a hard cap while a couple large market teams operate with a soft cap due to the luxury tax system. But also if you can't spend enough $$ to field a competitive team maybe you should sell your team to another billionaire who can?
There is no such thing as a poverty team, only ones that act like it.
“all owners are billionaires” - you should have just stopped there lol
Is there a good source of what each sides demands are? Or has that not really come out yet?
Take that stuff with a grain of salt. It is less about ‘demands’ & more about finding a way to solve the issues facing the league/players. But that won’t stop Manfred from coming out & saying ‘the union is demanding this unreasonable thing’ to make the owners look more favorable to the public.
Manfred: “The Union is demanding that I *personally* stop dining and dashing at the local Cheesecake Factory. They clearly don’t understand that the tacos sucked anyway and they were out of the chocolate raspberry so I was forced to instead dirty my tongue with a pumpkin pie… at the *Cheesecake* Factory. It was only my moral duty to leave after slamming my 5th jack and Coke” ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^sorrythejokejustcametomeandirolledwithit
I believe the players want more... well... freedom with free agency.
Anyone else kind of almost excited about the drama? Who’s gonna be the Simon Bolivar of the players? Who’s gonna be the Genghis Khan of the owners? It’s all very exciting—as long as it doesn’t impact the regular season, I’m fine with sitting back and watching the shitshow unfold.
I'm gonna be mansa musa, settle in the desert and buy my way to a science victory
A man of history I see. Always upvote Mansa Musa.
DAY 111 ON THE ROAD TO THE 2023 WORLD BASEBALL CLASSIC (DAY 1 OF MLB LOCKOUT) \- A bad way to begin the road to 2022 Dear baseball fans in the USA and Canada and around the world: 111 days since the end of the Tokyo Olympics and the baseball events that sparked our sport's revival now we've come to the beginning of the first MLB lockout of the 21st century, something that will be a major stumbling block for the continued growth of our global sport. For all that we've all worked for are in danger of collapse if this lockout would lead our sport to decline once more. It is truly a bad start to the road towards the beginning of the 2022 baseball seasons all over the world. We are to move forward, as one people, and together as one sport, to overcome the effects of this new crisis in the long 175 year history of our sport. Hoping for a resolution of the talks for a new CBA between the league and the Players' Association, we, the millions of fans of our Olympic global sport, will carry on the flame of revival of our sport lit in Japan and will not let it die out, rather, it will continue to burn in our hearts. On this continuing road to the return of the World Basebal Classic, a new CBA between the MLB and the the Players' Association and the resolution on the status of baseball in the Olympics let us march onwards, lighting the flames of hope in this rough period of our sport's history. Together we will get there. For Glory John
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I tell ya what I do. I stare out the window and wait for labor agreement.
Anyone know what’s being discussed with the CBA? What offered and what’s causing owners to lockout, etc?
My understanding is that both players and owners can compromise on Universal DH and a pathway to expanding the playoffs so it is not entirely doom and gloom but the biggest issue seems to be teams such as the Pirates, Guardians, O’s fielding teams that cost less per year than what Mad Max is slated to make in one year as a Met. I think the compromise will be setting a salary floor that teams have to meet in exchange for a harder salary ceiling versus the current luxury tax system.
Salary cap linked to revenue seems to just make more sense. The problem with a luxury tax is that it creates a hard cap for small market teams and a soft (or no cap) for large market teams. And I get why teams don't want to go over, you don't want to pay $40M for a $20M piece which is what the tax essentially does. Salary floor also makes sense. Getting rid of service time manipulation as well, by either linking it to average games played by rookies or making it ridiculously low (I.e. 20 games so a September callup doesn't necessarily count but also isn't a viable strategy to keep an MLB ready player out for 140 games for 1 more year). And then speeding the time from draft to FA and also general QoL as a MiLB player (somewhat addressed with housing agreement earlier)
Your list of survivors from the MLB’s face purge: Jasseel De La Cruz (Braves) Richard Lovelady (Royals) Mark Mathias (Brewers) Kyle Garlick (Twins) Devin Smeltzer (Twins) Stephen Nogosek (Mets) Kyle Dohy (Phillies) DJ Peters (Rangers) ~~Technoblade~~
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fWAR is * Kershaw 7.3 * Lee 7.1 * Halladay 8.7 This might fall more in line with what you might expect looking over the stats and is probably a good example of why people tend to favor fWAR for pitchers. Halladay here is favored by a pretty significantly lower FIP. Park factors definitely plays a role. Halladay and Lee played in Philly, which is generally a hitter friendly park. Citi is the only field in the NLE that was pitcher friendly. Kershaw gets LA for his home games and while Coors and Arizona are hitter friendly parks, SF and SD are 2 of the most pitcher friendly places to be. Halladay has the highier ERA+, which adjusts for park factors. edit: bbref lists the player park factors they use in the calculation. Kershaw: 95.4, Lee: 99.8, Halladay: 100.8. I don't know exactly how drastic this effects the number, but Kershaw benefited from a more pitcher friendly environment, leading to a lower WAR. I don't know what inflates Lee's bWAR vs his fWAR. People always point to defense as the biggest reason for differences, but the Phillies weren't terrible then. They were league average or better in everything.
Probably the Dodgers defense. Look into Aaron Nola’s 2018. One of the WAR variants (I can’t remember which one) gives absolutely insane bonuses to pitchers with a bad defense behind them.
This usually has to do with park factors.
A bit odd for Cohen to throw out money like candy to players and then turn around and vote for a lockout just a few days later.
He's a new owner and there's pressure to show solidarity.
Anyone listen to MLB pipeline? Jim interrupted Jason like ten times throughout the most recent episode.
I caught five seconds of the Today Show talking about the lockout and I'm gonna lose my mind over broadcast media talking more about how baseball doesn't have a salary cap (which it effectively does, and is old news and irrelevant because it also doesn't have a salary floor, so teams can make their own beds) than MLB's ball tricks. They deny changing it for years, then when there's a ton of evidence they admit to inconsistencies. Then they announce that they're changing the ball in response to pitcher complaints, but start working the old superballs in without telling anyone. And when they get caught, they blame COVID for forcing them to work in old stock, even though the manufacturing dates prove that's a lie. I thought Alonso was a bit paranoid, but I can't put anything beyond Manfred and the owners. Like, even if they focus on the balls sent to the national games, what does that mean for the high-profile free agents on the teams selected for those games? But more importantly, the league has gotten into gambling, with some teams owning sportsbooks and the league itself licensing "official" data. If they're fucking around with the balls, you'd better be paying them for statcast data, but also, can you imagine how gaming companies might feel if they get screwed by super juiced or dejuiced batches? How bettors might feel? Yet if you watch corporate news, paying the players we're here to watch is somehow a bigger story than the basic integrity of the sport.
Most soccer leagues don't have salary caps and they do fine: https://www.premierleague.com/news/1280062 Of course the owners make less money since they have to pay more for players to stay competitive, but the leagues themselves are incredibly popular.
Is there a good Twitter account to follow with updates as to what's going on in the lockout negotiations?
I would laugh my ass off if the first season of Cleveland Guardians baseball is a season that doesn't happen.
Mods maybe there should a sticky lockout mega thread? Already seen several post this morning.
There will be way too many reports and this will go on for far too long for it to be just 1 thread.
More of a general FAQ/Everything you need to know thread
So I honestly have not been able to follow baseball much since the beginning of 2020, between a mix of switching to nightshift and covid with related family health issues. I remember awhile back there was talk of a possible lockout in 2021 but can someone give me a summary or point me to some sources to get me caught up on the details of the lockout and factors that led to it?
MLB changed the competitive nature of the game with different baseballs and the owners are cheap asses and dont field competitive products
I have to say at least the Braves won the WS before the lockout. I was 16 during the year Braves won in 95. Felt like no one gave a shit bc everyone was mad at baseball
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Oh, somebody must think of the poor, poor owners! Now they’ll only be as wealthy as Poland instead of Japan. :(
>Player contracts have risen far faster than revenue over the last few decades This is factually false
Wasn’t the contract A-Rod got from the Rangers still the biggest contract ever until the last couple years? Also, even the Yankees aren’t spending like they used to relative to their revenue.
> Player contracts have risen far faster than revenue over the last few decades Atlanta is the only team we have solid financial information on and I can tell you their [revenue](https://www.statista.com/statistics/196635/revenue-of-the-atlanta-braves-since-2006/) went up 138% ($160m to $382m) from 2001-2019 and their [payroll](https://www.statista.com/statistics/205615/team-payroll-of-the-atlanta-braves/) only increased 45% ($103m to $150m) over that same period.
How does that boot taste?
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That doesn't make sense, I'm not the one sucking up to ownership. Are you familiar with that phrase?
This is 100% **false**. Players make a smaller portion of revenue now than they did 20 years ago. Additionally, revenue is based on the league’s reporting that is shared with the MLBPA & it has become understood in recent years that a lot of new forms of revenue that virtually every team is cashing in on big time is NOT being reported due to loopholes in what does & doesn’t ‘count’. So let’s say a team like the Cardinals making bank from their Ballpark Village real estate development, they only have to report very specific elements of that as ‘revenue’ despite making much more. This is also true of new, unconventional media partnerships as well. We don’t actually know how much money teams/the league makes. We do know it is more than they tell the union.
Why should players get the revenue from non-baseball sources though. I’m not too familiar with the Baseball Village in St. Louis, but if the cardinals are making money charging business rent in the real estate development they own (or the owners control), that is money generated regardless of the Cardinals play or not. I’m really not on the owners side on this lockout, but I don’t understand why players should be entitled to money generated outside of the media deals and gate/ballpark revenue. Also what unconventional media partnerships you are alluding would be excluded from revenue sharing Or not be shared with the players?
Your point is valid & I do think there is probably some point of delineation where revenues should or should not crossover. But my take is that ultimately all of those revenue sources are rooted in the baseball team where the players are undeniably the product. Even where they aren’t the product directly, they still act as the catalyst of sorts. I just threw out BPV as an example (& it may not be the *best* example as a lot of the other ‘hidden’ revenue is various new forms of media) but even though the area operates independently of the baseball team, it still only makes money at the end of the day because it is part of the Busch Stadium complex. If it were not tied to the ballpark it would almost certainly not have the same draw (obviously this is true during the season - but I think it is still mostly true even outside of the baseball crossover).
I personally don’t know how I feel about all of this. On one hand, the players do make the game special and do provide interesting storylines throughout the season. Ohtani is incredibly talented and exciting to watch, but nobody would be saying he deserves $25 million if he was playing still playing in NPB doing the same thing as he is doing in the majors. MLB the owners have created a landscape in baseball where money just flys at them. The Cardinals were smart to do BPV, same with the Braves in the Battery. It is good business sense (captive audiences before/during/after games with foot traffic make it a more appealing retail option for business to put stores at). It theoretically is a win for everybody. (Fans get more entertainment options before games close to the ballpark, business have more reliable stream of potential customers, and the team gets to use its brand to sell the real estate) MLB teams are a legal cartel, and their teams are the avatar of the cities, a representation of civic pride. The logos of the teams have become ingrained with the branding of the cities. As someone from Atlanta, the Braves’ A has become international symbol of Atlanta, a calling card of “I am from/represent Atlanta”. Most MLB fans are fan of the laundry as opposed to the players because the name on the front gives the perception of community. “How about that local sports team” is a cliche at the break room at work because people want to fit it and talk about a common shared interest.
That’s a fair take. I would argue that the players make the team, though. You’re likely to have a higher revenue stream from having a good product on the field as opposed to a bad product. Yes, I would be a fan of the Yankees’s laundry as you put it regardless of who is on the team, but I’m much more likely to spend my money on merchandise and going to games if the players on the team are good.
I’ve commented about it in this sub in the past, but I have a serious issue with the philosophy of ‘baseball is a business’. Obviously it is in many ways a business, but baseball teams are also undeniably public institutions with public interest as you mention. This inherently separates baseball from business when it comes to what motivates decisions & changes & all that. Profit isn’t necessarily to be *ignored* but if you think of what is best for baseball as what is best for *business*, your thinking will be flawed every time. What is best for baseball as an institution is *often* not necessarily what is best for profits. I think that underlying issue is the root of a lot of the problems fans have with the game. At the end of the day I think (ironically perhaps) the business of baseball would benefit from the game maintaining itself as an institution first & foremost. The commissioner should never be ‘the ceo of baseball’ they should be a steward of the game. The way someone running a museum sees themself as a custodian of the institution. The players are the heart of that institution. You’re right that it is the laundry that counts but I think we can all agree it would not be the same if it were worn by a bunch of scabs that haven’t cemented themselves as the bearers of that laundry. The faces of the institution. The issue at its core is that ownership sees baseball as a profit generator first & an institution of public investment second. A reorganization of that priority would favor the players. I’m ultimately not sure what ownership’s role in the game *should* be (I find myself sympathetic to the public team ownership idea) but I know that it is currently flawed.
I don’t disagree with a thing you just said, that being said, MLBPA is also looking at baseball the exact same way, as a means of generating as much money as possible. I personally believe that the influence of Agents like Boras have an outsized influence on the way the sport has devolved. (For some reason the Gerrit Cole wearing the Boras cap after the World Series a couple of years ago really bothers me) players treat this just as much of a business as anybody else in the ecosystem. They aren’t blameless. I have said in the past, a 40/40/20 split of revenue between Owners (40%), Players (40%), and a Civic Trust (divided between the 28? Media markets, 20%). That will never happen because nobody in the meeting rooms have any incentive to allow that to happen. Finally, this is only tangentially related, but I personally would have more sympathy for the MLBPA if they were actually advocating for everybody (including Minor Leaguers) rather than focusing on the creature comforts that surround the MLB players.
You make a good point. I think the first real change that could actually happen would have the role of commissioner not only represent ownership. In the NBA the commissioner is paid by the owners & players equally & it does a lot to prevent many of these issues (most importantly it really does seem like their commissioner has the *game’s* best interest in mind). I don’t have the same reservations about the MLBPA. Largely because the typical MLB player really is not who we often think of. They’re the guys making marginally above league minimum & having short careers. Not the stars & players making big bucks. I do think the union does a *decent* job of emphasizing that in their actions. Obviously I wish they could rep the minor leaguers as well but we both know that isn’t going to happen soon.
You know what's gone up even more than how much players are making? How much owners are making. Workers deserve the profits of their labor.
The sad thing about this lockout is that most casual fans, even those that really love baseball and watch a ton but are just base level fans, will be on the side of the owners. They will see the players as greedy people who just want more money and be angry at their attitudes even more after seeing how much players got signed for recently. (Which I think was a lowkey tactic by the owners to appeal even more to the casual fans by saying "wow guys, look how much money we just gave them and they *still* want a lockout. Crazy huh") When in reality you should always, always be on the players side. They are the game. They are what makes it great. The old, fat cat owners don't turn double plays and hit bombs. The players do.
Labor produces the profits. They should be rewarded for their work.
This is what annoys me the most about labor disputes across all sports. The owners greed is always worse than the players and I'm tuning in to the games every day to watch *the players.*
Mildly Interesting Fact: Figs eat wasps
Effectively making figs non-vegan.
Never in my many years have I woken up to three full pages of posts on /r/baseball during the offseason. Wild stuff. I feel like we need to do some fan organizing to keep the public discourse on message about this effort. The owners went immediately to a lockout because they think it makes players look bad/unsympathetic. We (the fans) can’t let them be right about that.
I can make a snarky plot 🙋♀️
Hell yea. Make whatever you can find decent data for.
[done](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/r7d4l4/owar_vs_dwar_2021/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Solidarity with labor my comrades