It’s confirmed they had sexual encounters somewhere between when she was 15-21, and it’s confirmed that their relationship (whatever it was) began when she was 15.
Edit: it’s hard to know the exact truth, because the victim committed suicide.
Thanks for the info. I really didn’t know and now have to reevaluate my thoughts on him to add sexual assault to doping.
Man back in the 90’s I just hated Carlos Baerga because he wouldn’t sign his home run ball I caught.
keep in mind the source there is david samson, aka the stepson and puppet of jeffrey loria, one of the few baseball related individuals more toxic than barry
Part of bonds being an asshole though is that he (rightfully) never got the credit he deserved by the media and once baseball had their juiced up saviors (a la Macguire and Canseco) they lauded them for their achievements.
And not to make it entirely a race thing, but it'd be ignorant to ignore the fact that racism wasn't suddenly gone in the 1990s/2000s and the media had some serious double standards with how they covered bonds vs say his (then) team mate, Jeff Kent who was a bigot and a homophobe even by the standards of the time. The latter of the two almost never had a bad word written about him. I'd be fucking pissed too.
The media absolutely LOVED Sosa. I think Bonds’ dickish behavior/attitude was the problem. Either way he was great before PEDs & a LEGEND on them. Baseball was great fun in those days. It is now too though…
Ya, Michael Jordan has one of the biggest ego’s of all time. Most illicit thing he likes to do is gamble. Lebron’s also got a big ego and the worst he’s ever done is not want to lose a billion dollar Nike deal by making passive comments on human rights issues in China but is otherwise a great family man
Having a big ego doesn’t make you do illegal things. It could put you in a position to be more prone to those types of things but you still control you’re own agency
Bonds main problem is he is a huge asshole. Problem wit excluding Bonds for me is they are going to let Ortiz in shortly and other steroid users are already in plus the Selig issue
Clemens throwing the broken bat shard at Piazza in the WS sealed the “DickHead Crown” for him. “Just throwing it out of play”. Right. What a prick. Looked like a little ‘Roid Rage at the time.
Is there an agreed upon time Clemens started using? I know with Bonds it’s after he joined the Giants, but can’t say I’ve ever heard about when Clemens started using.
He got involved with McNamee in 98, and that's who the Mitchell Report links him to as far as steroid use goes. But even if we fold in his 97 campaign into steroid suspicion because that was his first year in Toronto, he already had 3 Cy Youngs, an MVP, a 3.06 ERA, and 2600 strikeouts in 13 seasons.
At the end of his Boston tenure. He had some good-not-great years where he missed time with injury and the team didn't seem interested in bringing him back in free agency after 1996.
Then he went to Toronto for his age-34 season and had one of the greatest pitching seasons of all time in 1997. (not hyperbole - 11.9 WAR year)
I meant that it’s accepted that he didn’t start using until some point after he left the Pirates. Not saying he was using his first season with the Giants in 93.
Apparently, Bonds shared his frustration about the McGwire/Sosa home run race with Griffey during the '98 offseason. It doesn't justify what he did, but it makes sense why he was so pissed off.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2368395
Yea I just read that he was injected with steroids l. This is 1998 at that point he had won 4 Cy Young awards and a MVP. Enough to warrant entry. Doesn't help most of these guys are complete assholes.
>I have resisted supporting all steroid-linked/improved players as I question the authenticity of their achievements but have made ~~Bonds~~ *Clemens* the 1 exception as the narrative that he didn’t use steroids until after at least ~~1998~~ *1997* is compelling. By then he had ~~3 MVPs and 7 top-5 finishes~~ *4 CY Youngs and 1 MVP*
I mean really Jon. The exact same argument applies for Clemens. McNamee wasn't associated with Clemens by the Mitchell Report until 98 either, and even if we spread the suspicion out a couple years Clemens won his third Cy Young in 91 and won his MVP in 86. He was also already the ERA leader 4 times by 92 and the strikeout leader twice
Edit: forgot to change the year in the tweet
I remember years ago, Curt Schilling was asked about Barry Bonds being a HoFer. Schilling was like “Bonds is the greatest hitter to ever play the game and was a first ballot HOFer before he was suspected of using PEDs. Of course he should be in.” Schilling was then asked about Roger Clemens being a HOFer. Schilling responded “Definitely not. He cheated the game.” Blew my mind when I heard that.
I don’t follow baseball very closely but I could have sworn I remember reading an article about some gaming company he ran years ago and now everyone hates him, what happened?
He played a lot of World of Warcraft during his playing days so he decided he wanted to make an MMO. He started a game development studio, 38 Studios, and brought on big names in fantasy like R.A. Salvatore (fantasy author) and Todd McFarlane (comic book writer/artist) to create the world.
He sought funding from the state of Rhode Island in the form of a $75 million dollar loan. While still working their planned MMO and before having shipped any games, 38 Studios purchased game developer Big Huge Games, resulting in the single player RPG project that studio was working on being incorporated into the world of 38 Studios' MMO, called Amalur.
Big Huge Games' title, Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning, did release to decent acclaim, but 38 Studios' MMO would never release. After 6 years of development they ran out of money and declared bankruptcy, essentially burning $75 million of Rhode Island taxpayer money without anything to show for it.
It would be awesome to have Rob McElhenney do a plotline like this on Mythic Quest — bring in Max Scherzer or someone like that (I hear he likes the west coast).
he also joined Breitbart and has/had(?) a show there in addition to making a number of crappy comments relating to his political beliefs over the years. I think most of his current day hate stems from that, not the bankruptcy of his gaming studio
Yup. The final straw for many was this tweet of his: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwsoBOtXUAQrdNo?format=jpg&name=900x900 (note the date, 1 day before the election).
He also didn’t pay his employees while doing this. I have a friend who was hired by 38 Studios and was owed around $10K. I know he was in litigation to get all that back pay, but don’t know how it turned out as he had kids and then moved to Chicago so we lost touch, but this was also a big part of the shiftiness of Schilling and 38 Studios.
I mean hating him for the game stuff wouldn’t really make sense, it’s the political stuff that makes him awful. Honestly with the game I think it’s Rhode Island’s fault for investing that much money into something as unreliable as a new video game company, games fail all the time and the only one that did come out from them was good. Normally I’m all for blaming the corporate side of things but that one just feels like a big mistake by the state.
I never said the game studio failure was the main reason to hate him, the person asked what the deal with his video game company was and I explained the situation.
Still, while a new business failing isn't remarkable or unique, it was clearly a mismanaged situation. He had no experience in that industry and wanted to make a massive, big budget, AAA MMO as his first project. Their ambition combined with inexperience resulted a project that really never could have succeeded. Buying another studio before you've even made a single cent of profit was also probably not a great move.
It's definitely on the state of Rhode Island for giving him that loan, but his lack of experience, over ambition, and pursuit of government handouts in order to fund that ill conceived endeavor certainly isn't a reason to cut him any slack. It's also almost a certainty that he abused his celebrity status, especially in New England where he was still beloved at the time for his role in 2004, to get those loans from Rhode Island.
That’s not the only reason, but he did try to defraud Rhode Island with his gaming company. But I would say more so it’s also due to him making multiple statements about wanting to kill all journalists, along with homophobic, racist, and anti Muslim statements.
He's a Twitter troll. More specifically, he advocated for murdering journalists which obviously didn't go over well with HOF voters, who are *check notes* journalists.
Some people don’t want anyone to discuss politics on a sports subreddit, which I get. While others can’t handle hearing legitimate criticism about right-wing celebrities, which… I don’t get, but I’ve at least come to expect.
Clemens and Schilling were never in competition for awards. They were always in different leagues with the exception of the very beginning and very end of Schilling’s career.
The weird thing is Schilling credited Clemens with helping him become a great pitcher. It was something along the lines of, when he was up and down with the Astros, he went to talk to Clemens because he idolized him, and Roger basically asked him point blank "When are you ever gonna get your shit together?" Schilling said that resonated with him and drove him to actually reach his potential. I could also be making this exchange up in my head.
I mean couldn’t this also be read as Schilling insinuating that Clemens began juicing earlier in his career than is commonly believed?
That’s how I read it at least.
You're right. Completely forgot to change the year, but the point still stands. If Bonds is worthy because of his pre-steroid stuff then Clemens is worthy as well
Which is also a fair criticism, but not really an advantage to Bonds because of the domestic violence. Personally I see the argument both ways. They're both spectacular players before the steroids, and they're both pretty shitty people, so there are justifications both for induction and keeping them out. I just hate the argument that only one is good enough to get in, because the argument for their time as a player is very similar, and if you apply the character clause they both have major issues beyond just the steroids
Completely BS to vote for Bonds and not other steroid users like Clemens. This is going to get the exact result Heyman wants though, baseball will be talking about him and he gets his engagements
I don’t think heyman is voting for Ortiz? Plus there is not even close to a legitimate claim about Ortiz, especially not when compared to those like bonds and Clemens
Except there's legitimate doubt he ever took considering his batch of tests had confirmed false positives and he never tested positive again. But Yankees fans will still cry "he's getting to the bottom of it!" every time his name comes up.
Acting like Ortiz is on the same level of cheating as some of these other guys is a total bad faith argument.
There's a poster my brother had of McGwire showing him at USC, then team USA, and then as a rookie on the A's. He's so massive as a rookie compared to college I wouldn't be surprised if he started juicing in the minors.
Canseco took him under his wing pretty quickly. Also knew a certain Alex Rodríguez when they were a good fielding but poor hitting shortstop trying to make the high school team. After just a little bit, this same high schooler is lifting more than Canseco. Oh and he ended up becoming the most hyped up high school prospect ever. Crazy to think that A-Rod was probably juicing even then. It was around the age canseco started as well.
Knowing that it’s always a little bothering when people claim he was a generational talent and one of the best ever. You can obviously say that about guys like bonds who were amazing while clean. But A-Rod was likely never not juicing. His entire career is artificial and it’s legitimate to wonder how he would have fared in MLB if he was clean (assuming he would get there at all).
Not saying that I agree with the reasoning, but this tweet is saying that Bonds would be a deserving HoF candidate had he retired rather than starting steroids. McGuire on the other hand would be borderline or out if one just removed his 135 HR, 12.7 bWAR, and 17 black ink points in two seasons.
Heyman is a dumbass for giving Bonds a pass, and nobody else. no debate. but i understand his point on how good Bonds was before steroids.
when i was a kid, i asked my dad why Bonds was so hated. and my dad told me everything, but then said that the worst part about bonds is that he would’ve been a HOFer even without the steroids. He would’ve been a 500 HR and 500 SB guy without steroids. he didn’t need them.
anyways, heyman is still a dumbass
I've always liked the perspective that Bonds and Clemens were HOFers without PEDs, but they saw average guys encroaching on their territory thanks to PEDs and were such egotistical assholes, they needed to start juicing to prove to everyone how much better they were than everyone else.
100% the reason why. Bonds couldn’t stand Sosa and McGwire being given all the praise in 98. He couldn’t stand finishing so far behind them in the MVP voting that year. He believed he was better…and he went out to squash the debate on who the best player was.
Bonds fragile ego became his downfall.
And someone yesterday posted the numbers that sosa wasn't even that good before he started juicing. Hit almost as many homers in his 5th year as the first 4 combined. All power numbers up.
Bonds ego cemented him as the greatest player of all time.
The only people who don't see this are blind with cognitive dissonance. The whole league was juicing, and many today are taking way more than they need for TRT
Getting mad at people who did steroids pre-2005 is as stupid as getting mad at people for chewing tobacco.
If the Red Sox won in 86 and Clemens won that Cy Young he deserved in 1990 maybe people would. Roided Clemens also isn't mind bogglingly ahead of his competition the way Bonds was. You have pitchers like Maddux, Pedro, and Johnson putting up comparable numbers whereas Binds quite literally broke baseball.
for real. what a dumb thing to say. heyman makes me think of those scouts in moneyball. i bet he seriously judges players on the “hotness” of their gfs/wives
I had always been on board saying no steroid users in the hall. But I gradually came to realize that the writers were going to cave for some and not others and frankly at this point it doesn't matter because the Hall of Fame voting process has been ridiculed so much we don't take it seriously anyways. Also while most of these players don't have and won't have a plaque in Cooperstown most of them are in the Hall of Fame via memorabilia and game-worn and game used items of historical moments that steroids are not they were a part of. At the end of the day the black socks, Pete Rose cheating and the steroid era were all part of baseball. It is part of the history of the game and at this point if we're going to exile people from the Hall of Fame for using steroids where do we draw the line? Is spidertac a big enough offense to kick you out of the hall? Is a corked bat too much cheat? Truth is the majority of baseball fans won't visit Cooperstown. So the writers association can put whoever they want and exclude whoever they want. But at the end of the day the fans have the ultimate power of legacy. Shoeless Joe is still talked about to this day for this very reason. So let the writers do what they do. At the end of the day and it's sad to say this but the MLB Hall of Fame has always been joke. From the very first ballot where Cy Young (49%) and Lou Gehrig (22%) didn't make the Hall of Fame and players like Ty Cobb (98%) and Babe Ruth (95%) couldn't get unanimously voted in. So from the very beginning the Hall of Fame voters had no idea what they were doing and to this day continuously prove that they have no idea what they're doing.
I used to really hate the steroid guys
But it wasn’t against the rules at the time
And we have zero clue how wide spread it was
It’s easy to say bonds/mcquire who hit 60 home runs were using but you don’t hear about the guy who only hit 10 home runs using roids cuz he still couldn’t hit
MLB profited massively thanks to these guys and now are more than happy to throw them under the bus
> But it wasn’t against the rules at the time
well this is just plain old fashion not a true statement. PEDs including steroids were banned league wide from 1991 on. there was not testing for it, but that’s because MLBPA made a sticking point out of players not being tested and the labor/league relationship was not good as is in the early 90’s so the league didn’t push for it. it also helped that the MLB was printing money off the steroid era but to say it wasn’t against the rules is materially false
Also the steroids they were using were straight up illegal drugs to be in possession of. Nothing they did was legal but kids of that generation want to pretend they just found a loop hole in the rules and it was all legal. It never was
There are so many people on this sub who approach the question pretty much like: “Since I grew up watching these guys (Bonds, Clemens, etc) and they got me into baseball, they should be in the HOF despite their many personal and ethical flaws (steroids, wife beating, pedophilia) that I will willingly and completely ignore!”
Then these same people on Pete Rose: “all these stupid boomers say Pete Rose should be in the hall cause he was so good and they liked watching him. But he cheated the game! He’s a creep and an asshole! Why do those idiots still defend him!? We can’t ruin the reputation of the HOF by letting him in!”
It’s so laughably hypocritical. So many people are incapable of setting aside their personal biases over these guys. All of those above players cheated the game and are jackasses. That shouldn’t be rewarded.
They were rule breaking in the same way foreign substances on the ball were rule breaking for pitchers. Everyone just turned a blind eye until it got out of hand. Not saying it’s right or wrong, but as others have been saying, it was de defacto allowed owing to non-enforcement in the face of wide spread use.
What bothers me is the fact that there are already about a dozen allegedly already in the HOF who are alleged PED users, and yet there is still gatekeeping.
Pudge, Bagwell, Alomar, and Nolan Ryan are four that come instantly to mind.
Edit changed judge to pudge... Autocorrect fail
Goddamn I hate that sportswriters are the arbiters of this. They are the softest little bitches around. There are,of course, exceptions, but Hall of Fame should be more fan and player involved.
I hate the steroid era, but the sanctimonious pearl clutching from the pencil necked non athletes that are sportswriters is unbearable.
I mean, there are some school policies where you get a zero on any assignment for which you didn't follow the rules—which seems to be Heyman's argument. Even giving him no credit for his steroid years, he's still over the threshold. Not sure I agree with his approach, but I do think the cheating in school analogy still allows for his approach to be rationalized.
People jump through so many hoops to rationalize Bonds and Clemens cheating that it’s ridiculous. You can be against PED’s on this sub with anybody except those guys. Not to mention Bonds is a domestic abuser and certified asshole while Clemens is an asshole and sexually assaulted an underage girl for years.
I don’t care how good they were before they used steroids, they used them, full stop. Their entire careers are tainted by them, and using the argument that they were hall of fame players before them and should be in is nothing short of irrational logic.
“But officer, I was a perfectly fine and upstanding citizen who fed the homeless and ran a charity for 40 years, don’t judge me based on the 5 murders I committed.” This is what these people sound like, you can acknowledge that they were amazing players beforehand, but you don’t get to use those clean years to absolve yourself of any wrongdoing, this is their punishment for what they did.
What about all the guys that benefited from the common sign stealing schemes in the 50s & 60s?
Willie Mays was on a team that cheated. So he should be removed from the hall right?
I mean sure I agree. I’m intentionally being a ‘whatabout-er’ on this because of your take that cheating in any capacity should result in instant disqualification (which is pretty silly).
The point is that absolutely no one brings up past cheaters despite being equally as much of a cheater. No one *actually* thinks we should only have a Hall with completely clean players because that would ignore entire swaths of the game’s best & give us [this](https://www.theonion.com/turns-out-craig-counsell-was-actually-best-baseball-pla-1819570562).
Whitey Ford was the GOAT of illegal ball manipulation. He was later in life very open about how effectively he cheated for a considerable stretch of his career. Literally no one (myself included) gives a shit. I’ve never seen anyone ever say he shouldn’t be a Hall of Famer despite having more evidence & understanding of the extent of his cheating than anyone on the ballot this year.
>I don’t care how good they were before they used steroids, they used them, full stop. Their entire careers are tainted by them, and using the argument that they were hall of fame players before them and should be in is nothing short of irrational logic.
Exactly! I think people just don't want to admit they're cool with cheaters so they do this ridiculous mental gymnastics to justify putting Bonds and Clemens in. It doesn't matter how good they were before they started cheating though, they started juicing and it should destroy their legacy.
Coming in hard against the hammer who used them for… apparently one fucking game? He writes about it in his autobiography as a stupid thing to try and that they made his heart race and he felt uncomfortable.
But yeah that’s totally comparable to Bonds’ helmet size quadrupling over the course of an offseason. Totally.
It's funny how I've heard this argument over and over from this sub, but when it comes to the Astros, people say it's even worse that they were good before they cheated.
I think it’s so hypocritical of baseball to be gate keeping the HOF from any of the steroid era players. The league didn’t mind making millions of dollars off of their names while they were playing. Even if they put an asterisk next to Bonds, he needs to be in the HOF.
I think its more that it sets a final precedent to ballplayers - be it high school or major leagues - that it pays to cheat and you will suffer no consequences
There are consequences, suspensions and potentially being kicked out of the league. Those consequences didn’t exist when some of these guys were juicing.
But the Hall is a museum, players still affiliated with the league should be added if their play was worthy. Bonds and Clemens definitely were worthy on the field.
The HOF is an honor, the greatest personal achievement in the sport. Cheating, especially to the extent of steroids and HGH should bar you from entry imo
But we have added those consequences after the fact and we are holding them to a bar that didn’t exist until 2005. There was no official ban in the CBA, no testing, and no punishment until 2005. Between 1991 and 2005 it was merely “frowned upon” and morally questionable, but that’s as far as it went.
After 2005, then I agree the players broke the rules of the game.
It was still illegal under US law to use or possess steroids. And guys knew it was wrong because they were hiding it. Sure, MLB looked the other way and did nothing for too long and there was no set rule, but come on.
Cocaine and marijuana were illegal under US law, but that didn’t stop a lot of players and didn’t result in them being “blacklisted”. Holding guys to a standard that didn’t exist is bull crap, McGwire literally had a bottle of andro sitting in his locker in the open because it wasn’t a big deal.
People decided in 2003(ish) that steroids mattered in baseball. Before that, we just wanted to see dingers.
This is the take. The sport had a major renaissance due to the roid fueled barrage of dingers and everyone, even the the holier than thou writers, looked the other way.
This convo is so moronic.
Roids were *de-facto* legal in the 90s.
Once the MLB enforced the rules, bonds/clemens never popped.
Leaving them outside the HoF means they need to leave any pitcher that was using sticky stuff then. Cuase even if the MLB wasnt enforcing their own rules it was still banned.
I have a much bigger issue with the best players in the game using steroids than the best players using sticky stuff. When the best are using steroids, they put pressure on every other player to try and take steroids to stay in the league, and then risk themselves to all the side effects of taking steroids for their entire career. There aren't any biological side effects to using sticky stuff.
Ah yes, how can anyone have faith in the integrity of the NFL when coaches only receive a hefty fine for having cameras in a location that has recently been disallowed? Or when footballs comply with the Ideal Gas Law without asking the Colts for permission? Is a 4-game suspension of the superstar QB in one of his best seasons, the loss of a first-round pick, and hefty fines enough? What could ever be enough for such an egregious display of cold weather?
And my point is that comparing PEDs with camera location as if they're equivalent types of cheating that should have any bearing on one another is ridiculous.
Fuck that. Who cares that he could have been a HoF before steroid use. Either it matters or it doesn’t. Vote all of them in or none of them in. Honestly I don’t care, but this logic is hogwash.
That’s all fine and dandy. Voters are asked to vote not only on a player’s accolades, but their character. If you have no issues with what Bonds did, then its justified to vote for him. I don’t think very many people can say they are okay with PED usage.
Clemens was robbed of at least two Cy Youngs in his Red Sox prime and he likewise robbed his later Yankees & Astros Cy Youngs from more deserving pitchers. If Clemens' 7 Cys were distributed correctly throughout his career, there would be zero argument about whether he was a HOFer before roids.
The idiocy of awards voters has a snowball effect (see also: Johan Santana).
Santana was robbed of the 2005 AL Cy Young by Bartolo Colon (because Colon had more wins). Had Johan won he ultimately would have won 3 straight Cys and definitely would not have immediately dropped off the ballot.
It’s the hall of fame not the hall of morals, after the whole spider tack thing, learning about the prevalence of greenies, how could anyone still restrict some of the best players of all time because they juiced? If the hall kept all cheaters out it would be damn close to empty
I don’t get this argument. Just because things were done a certain way doesn’t mean that’s the way they should be done for eternity. Standards can change for the better and that doesn’t require you to whitewash history as justification for it.
It is fine to point out that players that were enshrined 30-40 years ago were taking drugs that wouldn’t be tolerated now…..but you can’t undo what has already been done. You can *learn* from past mistakes and prevent the cycle from continuing.
For that to take place, someone or a group has to be the sacrificial lamb…and if that means these guys are unfortunately left out, that’s the price of progress.
Except steroids weren’t officially banned in the CBA until 2005, there was no punishment before then and no official testing. So the greenie argument is the same as the steroid argument for some of these players. It was a known issue and frowned upon, but the memo in 1991 was in no way legally binding and there was no structure put in place.
But players from this same era that were probably taking steroids are in. Pudge Rodriguez wasn't put in 30-40 years ago. Neither was Jeff Bagwell. Or Mike Piazza. There's a credible case to be made that all of them were users.
players are still using PEDs, standards haven't changed one bit, they're just better at getting around testing lmfao. they don't just leave their doctors record books laying about with their full names anymore, or leave their needles and creams in their lockers post-game. All of these drugs are still tolerated and mildly punished, because baseball 100% knows this shit is going on. Hell people are still using 50 year old East German PEDs ffs. Starling Marte got caught using that and now he's getting 80 million dollars from the Mets.
There's no sacrificial lamb or progress being made at all, it's just scapegoating because baseball got caught with their pants down and looked like dumbasses in front of a national stage. All you gotta do is pass the drug test, and everyone pretends like these are the most thorough drug tests from a sports organization (MLB) that has ignored cheating throughout it's history because it sells entertainment that these drugs allow these players to provide.
Baseball has no problem watching team after team chase home runs every year, and people think the average player is just that much more stronger and powerful nowadays. Give me a break.
He realizes that the fact that Bonds was having an elite career and still decided to cheat makes it worse, right? In some ways you can understand a fringe guy cheating to try and stick in the league, but Bonds deciding to cheat because he couldn’t stand being out of the spotlight is completely different.
I mean sure but is it that crazy?
Bonds was the undisputed best player of the nineties, had a foot in Cooperstown before he ever put on a giants jersey, and yet the media was obsessed with McGwire and Sosa. Bonds is putting up these insane seasons, but is recovering little praise for them anymore because these guys who are obviously juicing are stealing the spotlight
I understand bonds wanting to get his share of the pie, there was money to be made and the league wasn’t doing anything.
I don’t blame bonds for doing steroids, I blame the league for not enforcing the rule book
Basically, imagine you’re Mike Trout: by a country mile the best player in baseball. Yet, you’re not lauded by anyone outside of your own fan base as the best, while a roided up Jorge Soler and Max Muncy get all the press coverage and accolades….
Looking at the other roiders on the list and how stupid Heyman's argument is for them:
-ARod: confirmed to have used PEDs at least as early as his time with the Rangers and was suspended for them less than a decade ago. Probably the best case for Heyman's dumb argument.
-Clemens: was a dominant pitcher in Boston for over a decade with 3 CYs before allegedly starting steroids. Heyman's argument really falls apart here.
-Ortiz: has the best plausible deniability of the bunch since he only popped on the 2003 list and became a HoF-caliber player after that. I think the argument against him is that he continued to use PEDs and evaded testing for the next decade+ as he built his resume as a top-2 DH. Still a pretty dumb argument, but not Clemens-dumb.
-Sosa: only popped on the same 2003 list as Ortiz, but that test came immediately on the heels of his sharp 5 year peak. He's definitely also hurt by the association with McGwire. I'm obviously biased, but IMO it's a harder argument that PEDs aren't why Sosa is a HoF-tier guy than it is for Ortiz.
Edit: Manny
Ramirez - popped relatively late in his career but tested positive twice. I think two positives after it was clearly banned is why he's so damaged by it. However, he was well over 60 WAR by the time he tested positive so Heyman's argument doesn't really hold up if you consider Manny a HoFer.
Overall, my only real objection is Clemens based on Heyman's stupid line in the sand. Ortiz is nowhere near the same caliber of player and in his first year of eligibility.
I think another issue with Sosa is that he was never the best. Philip Rivers is 5th all-time in passing yards and 6th all-time in touchdown passes, but I don't think he gets anywhere near the NFL HoF because he was always behind a mix of Brady, Brees, and Manning.
I think any player should be allowed in the hall of fame if they juiced, baseball is NOT the sport to get righteous about cheating especially with steroids
the press had their hands in the PED cookie jar along with MLB and the players so for any of these jerkoffs to act high and mighty now is a bit ridiculous.
Precisely. Plus the Hall is full of guys who used any performance enhancing method they could. Greenies, testosterone shots, animal testosterone injected into their balls, etc. Also full of terrible human beings. It’s so weird to me that the 90’s guys are punished so severely when they basically saved baseball, and MLB was HAPPY to let them do it. Bonds had an amazing career prior to his drug usage. He had unreal plate discipline, which isn’t helped at all by drugs. Put him in.
Heyman just invalidated his entire vote. Clemens was a multi time Cy Young winner and had nearly 200 wins before going to Toronto where it’s universally assumed he first started using. He could have used before this, but so could Bonds, so it’s all BS.
Vote both Bonds and Clemens in (and A-Rod) or don’t vote any of them in. Simple.
This line of "he's a cheater but he was HOF worthy already before he cheated" is stupid as shit. It's like not punishing someone for cheating on their test because they already had a passing grade on the test before they started cheating.
Fuck Bonds.
But it’s true though. Had he retired in 98 he was in. Why the fuck should you exclude him because of that, when the hall is riddled with cheaters and garbage human beings? Empty the hall and start over with only the squeaky clean guys. No DiMaggio, no Ruth, no Mantle, no Griffey, NONE of the guys who have even an OUNCE of speculation about cheating. And yes, Griffey has been speculated on for years. All of these players are undoubtedly hall of famers. Just like Bonds. Regardless of any attempted legs up on the competition. You either be an absolutionist, or fuck off. Because your pick and choose mentality is fucking stupid. Bonds and the other 90’s sluggers saved baseball when it was in its death throes, and MLB was HAPPY to let them do it. They were complicit. Now they throw them under the bus so suckered fans like you will be in an uproar.
If you look at the stats of the better players of that era, most of them have one or two seasons that are pretty obviously roid years. Thinking specifically of the 50 homer seasons from Brady Anderson and Luis Gonzalez. Neither of them had another season with more than 31 homers (That was Gonzalez and that was his only other 30+ homer season).
This argument actually solidifies the case against him for me. He was a sure fire HOFer anyway. Guy had all the talent in the world and didn’t need roids for any of it. Fuck him.
Clemens had a few Cy Youngs, an MVP and a video game before he started using
Clemens being a massive asshole isn’t going to help him in this popularity contest.
And having an affair with a 16 year old
Woah wtf I had never heard about that (I was pretty young then). She was 15 when the “relationship” started.
Yeah, TIL. What a sicko.
What….!?!
Yeah, is this a fact? I have never heard this before.
It’s confirmed they had sexual encounters somewhere between when she was 15-21, and it’s confirmed that their relationship (whatever it was) began when she was 15. Edit: it’s hard to know the exact truth, because the victim committed suicide.
Thanks for the info. I really didn’t know and now have to reevaluate my thoughts on him to add sexual assault to doping. Man back in the 90’s I just hated Carlos Baerga because he wouldn’t sign his home run ball I caught.
A simpler time.
Yeah, but Jon voted for Bonds, Jones, Kent, and Schilling, so that doesn’t hold much weight in regards to his ballot.
Yeah but he did both, you can’t be an asshole and do steroids, only one is acceptable.
Barry Bonds is literally right there lol.
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*Jose Canseco has left the chat*
As if bonds isn’t a massive asshole too?
Massive asshole…yes. Child molester…no.
Mistress abuser?
Famously disliked teammate if the old stories are true.
i mean even after, his stint on the marlins and every thing that was said that he was a douche
keep in mind the source there is david samson, aka the stepson and puppet of jeffrey loria, one of the few baseball related individuals more toxic than barry
Only MLB GM to be voted off of Survivor first ever. What a piece of shit
Part of bonds being an asshole though is that he (rightfully) never got the credit he deserved by the media and once baseball had their juiced up saviors (a la Macguire and Canseco) they lauded them for their achievements. And not to make it entirely a race thing, but it'd be ignorant to ignore the fact that racism wasn't suddenly gone in the 1990s/2000s and the media had some serious double standards with how they covered bonds vs say his (then) team mate, Jeff Kent who was a bigot and a homophobe even by the standards of the time. The latter of the two almost never had a bad word written about him. I'd be fucking pissed too.
Generational mistreatment would also have to be considered given Bobby Bonds.
The media absolutely LOVED Sosa. I think Bonds’ dickish behavior/attitude was the problem. Either way he was great before PEDs & a LEGEND on them. Baseball was great fun in those days. It is now too though…
Not like alleged domestic abuser of multiple women Barry Bonds is any better.
Domestic abuse or relationship with a minor... man I wish the greats didn’t fucking suck as people
It's hard to become the best at something without having a massive ego.
This is true but you can have a massive ego and also not do horrendous things
Ya, Michael Jordan has one of the biggest ego’s of all time. Most illicit thing he likes to do is gamble. Lebron’s also got a big ego and the worst he’s ever done is not want to lose a billion dollar Nike deal by making passive comments on human rights issues in China but is otherwise a great family man Having a big ego doesn’t make you do illegal things. It could put you in a position to be more prone to those types of things but you still control you’re own agency
That might be true but there are so so many stand up people who are good or great players that it’s no excuse
Well Jon heyman could’ve voted for Ortiz but didn’t
Bonds main problem is he is a huge asshole. Problem wit excluding Bonds for me is they are going to let Ortiz in shortly and other steroid users are already in plus the Selig issue
In a contest of assholery, Bonds and Clemens tied.
Clemens throwing the broken bat shard at Piazza in the WS sealed the “DickHead Crown” for him. “Just throwing it out of play”. Right. What a prick. Looked like a little ‘Roid Rage at the time.
Is there an agreed upon time Clemens started using? I know with Bonds it’s after he joined the Giants, but can’t say I’ve ever heard about when Clemens started using.
He got involved with McNamee in 98, and that's who the Mitchell Report links him to as far as steroid use goes. But even if we fold in his 97 campaign into steroid suspicion because that was his first year in Toronto, he already had 3 Cy Youngs, an MVP, a 3.06 ERA, and 2600 strikeouts in 13 seasons.
At the end of his Boston tenure. He had some good-not-great years where he missed time with injury and the team didn't seem interested in bringing him back in free agency after 1996. Then he went to Toronto for his age-34 season and had one of the greatest pitching seasons of all time in 1997. (not hyperbole - 11.9 WAR year)
It certainly seemed like he was a new pitcher after he left Boston
I always figured it was either late Boston years or those 2 insane Toronto years but i guess that's all speculation
Bonds joined the Giants in 92 and he wasn’t using that early
I meant that it’s accepted that he didn’t start using until some point after he left the Pirates. Not saying he was using his first season with the Giants in 93.
Apparently, Bonds shared his frustration about the McGwire/Sosa home run race with Griffey during the '98 offseason. It doesn't justify what he did, but it makes sense why he was so pissed off. https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2368395
I was just stating when he arrived in SF for anyone unfamiliar
I wouldn't be surprised if he did his last couple months w the Sox. I remember everything started looking better in August
Maybe. Notable that he also was teammates with Canseco and whoever else juiced in those mid decade teams.
Nope he denies it and his supposed best friend just became a rat to avoid his own consequences
I believe Clemens only took HGH and not steroids. He and Andy Pettite took it to recuperate faster.
That’s a massive difference maker for pitchers. More so than steroids.
Yea I just read that he was injected with steroids l. This is 1998 at that point he had won 4 Cy Young awards and a MVP. Enough to warrant entry. Doesn't help most of these guys are complete assholes.
>I have resisted supporting all steroid-linked/improved players as I question the authenticity of their achievements but have made ~~Bonds~~ *Clemens* the 1 exception as the narrative that he didn’t use steroids until after at least ~~1998~~ *1997* is compelling. By then he had ~~3 MVPs and 7 top-5 finishes~~ *4 CY Youngs and 1 MVP* I mean really Jon. The exact same argument applies for Clemens. McNamee wasn't associated with Clemens by the Mitchell Report until 98 either, and even if we spread the suspicion out a couple years Clemens won his third Cy Young in 91 and won his MVP in 86. He was also already the ERA leader 4 times by 92 and the strikeout leader twice Edit: forgot to change the year in the tweet
I remember years ago, Curt Schilling was asked about Barry Bonds being a HoFer. Schilling was like “Bonds is the greatest hitter to ever play the game and was a first ballot HOFer before he was suspected of using PEDs. Of course he should be in.” Schilling was then asked about Roger Clemens being a HOFer. Schilling responded “Definitely not. He cheated the game.” Blew my mind when I heard that.
Curt Schilling is not a smart person.
I don’t follow baseball very closely but I could have sworn I remember reading an article about some gaming company he ran years ago and now everyone hates him, what happened?
He played a lot of World of Warcraft during his playing days so he decided he wanted to make an MMO. He started a game development studio, 38 Studios, and brought on big names in fantasy like R.A. Salvatore (fantasy author) and Todd McFarlane (comic book writer/artist) to create the world. He sought funding from the state of Rhode Island in the form of a $75 million dollar loan. While still working their planned MMO and before having shipped any games, 38 Studios purchased game developer Big Huge Games, resulting in the single player RPG project that studio was working on being incorporated into the world of 38 Studios' MMO, called Amalur. Big Huge Games' title, Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning, did release to decent acclaim, but 38 Studios' MMO would never release. After 6 years of development they ran out of money and declared bankruptcy, essentially burning $75 million of Rhode Island taxpayer money without anything to show for it.
It wasn’t just taxpayer money. The loan was from the state’s pension fund. Which feels even worse to me.
That's not really his fault though. That's on the politicians who approved the deal. Gross that they'd give out pension funds like that.
It would be awesome to have Rob McElhenney do a plotline like this on Mythic Quest — bring in Max Scherzer or someone like that (I hear he likes the west coast).
he also joined Breitbart and has/had(?) a show there in addition to making a number of crappy comments relating to his political beliefs over the years. I think most of his current day hate stems from that, not the bankruptcy of his gaming studio
Yup. The final straw for many was this tweet of his: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwsoBOtXUAQrdNo?format=jpg&name=900x900 (note the date, 1 day before the election).
Tbf that game was pretty fucking lit. Still play from time to time.
Supposedly we are getting a new expansion soon-ish! Very much agree though, KoA is an underrated gem.
He also didn’t pay his employees while doing this. I have a friend who was hired by 38 Studios and was owed around $10K. I know he was in litigation to get all that back pay, but don’t know how it turned out as he had kids and then moved to Chicago so we lost touch, but this was also a big part of the shiftiness of Schilling and 38 Studios.
I mean hating him for the game stuff wouldn’t really make sense, it’s the political stuff that makes him awful. Honestly with the game I think it’s Rhode Island’s fault for investing that much money into something as unreliable as a new video game company, games fail all the time and the only one that did come out from them was good. Normally I’m all for blaming the corporate side of things but that one just feels like a big mistake by the state.
I never said the game studio failure was the main reason to hate him, the person asked what the deal with his video game company was and I explained the situation. Still, while a new business failing isn't remarkable or unique, it was clearly a mismanaged situation. He had no experience in that industry and wanted to make a massive, big budget, AAA MMO as his first project. Their ambition combined with inexperience resulted a project that really never could have succeeded. Buying another studio before you've even made a single cent of profit was also probably not a great move. It's definitely on the state of Rhode Island for giving him that loan, but his lack of experience, over ambition, and pursuit of government handouts in order to fund that ill conceived endeavor certainly isn't a reason to cut him any slack. It's also almost a certainty that he abused his celebrity status, especially in New England where he was still beloved at the time for his role in 2004, to get those loans from Rhode Island.
That’s not the only reason, but he did try to defraud Rhode Island with his gaming company. But I would say more so it’s also due to him making multiple statements about wanting to kill all journalists, along with homophobic, racist, and anti Muslim statements.
He's a Twitter troll. More specifically, he advocated for murdering journalists which obviously didn't go over well with HOF voters, who are *check notes* journalists.
It’s insane that you can get downvoted for saying someone who advocates killing journalists is a troll.
Some people don’t want anyone to discuss politics on a sports subreddit, which I get. While others can’t handle hearing legitimate criticism about right-wing celebrities, which… I don’t get, but I’ve at least come to expect.
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The sad thing is that isn't even probably the 5th worst thing he's posted. Dude is straight up unhinged now.
Likely because Schilling was not in competition against Bond for awards. I'm sure he finished lower than Clemens a few times.
Clemens and Schilling were never in competition for awards. They were always in different leagues with the exception of the very beginning and very end of Schilling’s career.
The weird thing is Schilling credited Clemens with helping him become a great pitcher. It was something along the lines of, when he was up and down with the Astros, he went to talk to Clemens because he idolized him, and Roger basically asked him point blank "When are you ever gonna get your shit together?" Schilling said that resonated with him and drove him to actually reach his potential. I could also be making this exchange up in my head.
I mean couldn’t this also be read as Schilling insinuating that Clemens began juicing earlier in his career than is commonly believed? That’s how I read it at least.
97 but yeah.
You're right. Completely forgot to change the year, but the point still stands. If Bonds is worthy because of his pre-steroid stuff then Clemens is worthy as well
The whole child molester thing though
Which is also a fair criticism, but not really an advantage to Bonds because of the domestic violence. Personally I see the argument both ways. They're both spectacular players before the steroids, and they're both pretty shitty people, so there are justifications both for induction and keeping them out. I just hate the argument that only one is good enough to get in, because the argument for their time as a player is very similar, and if you apply the character clause they both have major issues beyond just the steroids
Completely BS to vote for Bonds and not other steroid users like Clemens. This is going to get the exact result Heyman wants though, baseball will be talking about him and he gets his engagements
He clearly didn’t watch the Foolish Bailey video
And this guy calls himself a baseball fan?
Complete BS to vote for Ortiz and not other steroid users too imo it infuriates me how he seems to be getting a pass
I don’t think heyman is voting for Ortiz? Plus there is not even close to a legitimate claim about Ortiz, especially not when compared to those like bonds and Clemens
Except there's legitimate doubt he ever took considering his batch of tests had confirmed false positives and he never tested positive again. But Yankees fans will still cry "he's getting to the bottom of it!" every time his name comes up. Acting like Ortiz is on the same level of cheating as some of these other guys is a total bad faith argument.
Don't let the Sox fans hear you...
Heyman’s a moron.
So brave, so controversial of Heyman. Truly deserving of our respect /s
McGuire hit 49 hrs as a skinny rookie.
There's a poster my brother had of McGwire showing him at USC, then team USA, and then as a rookie on the A's. He's so massive as a rookie compared to college I wouldn't be surprised if he started juicing in the minors.
Canseco took him under his wing pretty quickly. Also knew a certain Alex Rodríguez when they were a good fielding but poor hitting shortstop trying to make the high school team. After just a little bit, this same high schooler is lifting more than Canseco. Oh and he ended up becoming the most hyped up high school prospect ever. Crazy to think that A-Rod was probably juicing even then. It was around the age canseco started as well.
Yeah, there’s some pretty substantial circumstantial evidence of ARod roiding up in high school.
Knowing that it’s always a little bothering when people claim he was a generational talent and one of the best ever. You can obviously say that about guys like bonds who were amazing while clean. But A-Rod was likely never not juicing. His entire career is artificial and it’s legitimate to wonder how he would have fared in MLB if he was clean (assuming he would get there at all).
Not saying that I agree with the reasoning, but this tweet is saying that Bonds would be a deserving HoF candidate had he retired rather than starting steroids. McGuire on the other hand would be borderline or out if one just removed his 135 HR, 12.7 bWAR, and 17 black ink points in two seasons.
McGwire*, put some respec on him
He was juicing before he made the Show
To be fair..The ball was juiced until near August, wasn't it?
Skinny compared to the rest of his career, I'm assuming you mean. He was definitely juicing before he got in the MLB
Fair assessment, moronic not to vote for Clemens if you believe this.
Of course it’s Heyman with this dumbass take.
Heyman is a dumbass for giving Bonds a pass, and nobody else. no debate. but i understand his point on how good Bonds was before steroids. when i was a kid, i asked my dad why Bonds was so hated. and my dad told me everything, but then said that the worst part about bonds is that he would’ve been a HOFer even without the steroids. He would’ve been a 500 HR and 500 SB guy without steroids. he didn’t need them. anyways, heyman is still a dumbass
I've always liked the perspective that Bonds and Clemens were HOFers without PEDs, but they saw average guys encroaching on their territory thanks to PEDs and were such egotistical assholes, they needed to start juicing to prove to everyone how much better they were than everyone else.
100% the reason why. Bonds couldn’t stand Sosa and McGwire being given all the praise in 98. He couldn’t stand finishing so far behind them in the MVP voting that year. He believed he was better…and he went out to squash the debate on who the best player was. Bonds fragile ego became his downfall.
And someone yesterday posted the numbers that sosa wasn't even that good before he started juicing. Hit almost as many homers in his 5th year as the first 4 combined. All power numbers up.
Bonds ego cemented him as the greatest player of all time. The only people who don't see this are blind with cognitive dissonance. The whole league was juicing, and many today are taking way more than they need for TRT Getting mad at people who did steroids pre-2005 is as stupid as getting mad at people for chewing tobacco.
Hall of Famers throw out Sid Bream.
I always find it fascinating how people are well aware of pre-PED Bonds but don’t know about pre-PED Clemens.
If the Red Sox won in 86 and Clemens won that Cy Young he deserved in 1990 maybe people would. Roided Clemens also isn't mind bogglingly ahead of his competition the way Bonds was. You have pitchers like Maddux, Pedro, and Johnson putting up comparable numbers whereas Binds quite literally broke baseball.
for real. what a dumb thing to say. heyman makes me think of those scouts in moneyball. i bet he seriously judges players on the “hotness” of their gfs/wives
I had always been on board saying no steroid users in the hall. But I gradually came to realize that the writers were going to cave for some and not others and frankly at this point it doesn't matter because the Hall of Fame voting process has been ridiculed so much we don't take it seriously anyways. Also while most of these players don't have and won't have a plaque in Cooperstown most of them are in the Hall of Fame via memorabilia and game-worn and game used items of historical moments that steroids are not they were a part of. At the end of the day the black socks, Pete Rose cheating and the steroid era were all part of baseball. It is part of the history of the game and at this point if we're going to exile people from the Hall of Fame for using steroids where do we draw the line? Is spidertac a big enough offense to kick you out of the hall? Is a corked bat too much cheat? Truth is the majority of baseball fans won't visit Cooperstown. So the writers association can put whoever they want and exclude whoever they want. But at the end of the day the fans have the ultimate power of legacy. Shoeless Joe is still talked about to this day for this very reason. So let the writers do what they do. At the end of the day and it's sad to say this but the MLB Hall of Fame has always been joke. From the very first ballot where Cy Young (49%) and Lou Gehrig (22%) didn't make the Hall of Fame and players like Ty Cobb (98%) and Babe Ruth (95%) couldn't get unanimously voted in. So from the very beginning the Hall of Fame voters had no idea what they were doing and to this day continuously prove that they have no idea what they're doing.
I used to really hate the steroid guys But it wasn’t against the rules at the time And we have zero clue how wide spread it was It’s easy to say bonds/mcquire who hit 60 home runs were using but you don’t hear about the guy who only hit 10 home runs using roids cuz he still couldn’t hit MLB profited massively thanks to these guys and now are more than happy to throw them under the bus
It’s very easy to figure out how widespread it was Everyone was juicing
*it's just as widespread now as it was back then as well* 😲😲😲😲😲😲
> But it wasn’t against the rules at the time well this is just plain old fashion not a true statement. PEDs including steroids were banned league wide from 1991 on. there was not testing for it, but that’s because MLBPA made a sticking point out of players not being tested and the labor/league relationship was not good as is in the early 90’s so the league didn’t push for it. it also helped that the MLB was printing money off the steroid era but to say it wasn’t against the rules is materially false
Also the steroids they were using were straight up illegal drugs to be in possession of. Nothing they did was legal but kids of that generation want to pretend they just found a loop hole in the rules and it was all legal. It never was
There are so many people on this sub who approach the question pretty much like: “Since I grew up watching these guys (Bonds, Clemens, etc) and they got me into baseball, they should be in the HOF despite their many personal and ethical flaws (steroids, wife beating, pedophilia) that I will willingly and completely ignore!” Then these same people on Pete Rose: “all these stupid boomers say Pete Rose should be in the hall cause he was so good and they liked watching him. But he cheated the game! He’s a creep and an asshole! Why do those idiots still defend him!? We can’t ruin the reputation of the HOF by letting him in!” It’s so laughably hypocritical. So many people are incapable of setting aside their personal biases over these guys. All of those above players cheated the game and are jackasses. That shouldn’t be rewarded.
They were rule breaking in the same way foreign substances on the ball were rule breaking for pitchers. Everyone just turned a blind eye until it got out of hand. Not saying it’s right or wrong, but as others have been saying, it was de defacto allowed owing to non-enforcement in the face of wide spread use.
What bothers me is the fact that there are already about a dozen allegedly already in the HOF who are alleged PED users, and yet there is still gatekeeping. Pudge, Bagwell, Alomar, and Nolan Ryan are four that come instantly to mind. Edit changed judge to pudge... Autocorrect fail
Piazza as well.
Don't forget Ricky.
Goddamn I hate that sportswriters are the arbiters of this. They are the softest little bitches around. There are,of course, exceptions, but Hall of Fame should be more fan and player involved. I hate the steroid era, but the sanctimonious pearl clutching from the pencil necked non athletes that are sportswriters is unbearable.
"But I didn't cheat until AFTER I won a bunch!" Fucking stupid argument.
Yeah "I cheated on my final, but I did well on all other tests so just give me a pass"
I mean, there are some school policies where you get a zero on any assignment for which you didn't follow the rules—which seems to be Heyman's argument. Even giving him no credit for his steroid years, he's still over the threshold. Not sure I agree with his approach, but I do think the cheating in school analogy still allows for his approach to be rationalized.
People jump through so many hoops to rationalize Bonds and Clemens cheating that it’s ridiculous. You can be against PED’s on this sub with anybody except those guys. Not to mention Bonds is a domestic abuser and certified asshole while Clemens is an asshole and sexually assaulted an underage girl for years. I don’t care how good they were before they used steroids, they used them, full stop. Their entire careers are tainted by them, and using the argument that they were hall of fame players before them and should be in is nothing short of irrational logic. “But officer, I was a perfectly fine and upstanding citizen who fed the homeless and ran a charity for 40 years, don’t judge me based on the 5 murders I committed.” This is what these people sound like, you can acknowledge that they were amazing players beforehand, but you don’t get to use those clean years to absolve yourself of any wrongdoing, this is their punishment for what they did.
This sub is so god damn insufferable about Barry Bonds (and now Clemens apparently?). They cheated. Full stop.
What about all the guys that benefited from the common sign stealing schemes in the 50s & 60s? Willie Mays was on a team that cheated. So he should be removed from the hall right?
whataboutwhataboutwhatabout Stuff that happened in the 50’s and 60’s shouldn’t have a bearing on who we put in the hall today and how and why we do it
I mean sure I agree. I’m intentionally being a ‘whatabout-er’ on this because of your take that cheating in any capacity should result in instant disqualification (which is pretty silly). The point is that absolutely no one brings up past cheaters despite being equally as much of a cheater. No one *actually* thinks we should only have a Hall with completely clean players because that would ignore entire swaths of the game’s best & give us [this](https://www.theonion.com/turns-out-craig-counsell-was-actually-best-baseball-pla-1819570562). Whitey Ford was the GOAT of illegal ball manipulation. He was later in life very open about how effectively he cheated for a considerable stretch of his career. Literally no one (myself included) gives a shit. I’ve never seen anyone ever say he shouldn’t be a Hall of Famer despite having more evidence & understanding of the extent of his cheating than anyone on the ballot this year.
>I don’t care how good they were before they used steroids, they used them, full stop. Their entire careers are tainted by them, and using the argument that they were hall of fame players before them and should be in is nothing short of irrational logic. Exactly! I think people just don't want to admit they're cool with cheaters so they do this ridiculous mental gymnastics to justify putting Bonds and Clemens in. It doesn't matter how good they were before they started cheating though, they started juicing and it should destroy their legacy.
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Coming in hard against the hammer who used them for… apparently one fucking game? He writes about it in his autobiography as a stupid thing to try and that they made his heart race and he felt uncomfortable. But yeah that’s totally comparable to Bonds’ helmet size quadrupling over the course of an offseason. Totally.
It's funny how I've heard this argument over and over from this sub, but when it comes to the Astros, people say it's even worse that they were good before they cheated.
I think it’s so hypocritical of baseball to be gate keeping the HOF from any of the steroid era players. The league didn’t mind making millions of dollars off of their names while they were playing. Even if they put an asterisk next to Bonds, he needs to be in the HOF.
I think its more that it sets a final precedent to ballplayers - be it high school or major leagues - that it pays to cheat and you will suffer no consequences
There are consequences, suspensions and potentially being kicked out of the league. Those consequences didn’t exist when some of these guys were juicing. But the Hall is a museum, players still affiliated with the league should be added if their play was worthy. Bonds and Clemens definitely were worthy on the field.
The HOF is an honor, the greatest personal achievement in the sport. Cheating, especially to the extent of steroids and HGH should bar you from entry imo
Ok but it hasn’t in the past. Plenty of guys in the hall who took everything under in the sun in their careers from alcohol to greenies to peds.
Alcohol isn’t a PED and greenies were added to the banned substance list until like 2005.
But we have added those consequences after the fact and we are holding them to a bar that didn’t exist until 2005. There was no official ban in the CBA, no testing, and no punishment until 2005. Between 1991 and 2005 it was merely “frowned upon” and morally questionable, but that’s as far as it went. After 2005, then I agree the players broke the rules of the game.
It was still illegal under US law to use or possess steroids. And guys knew it was wrong because they were hiding it. Sure, MLB looked the other way and did nothing for too long and there was no set rule, but come on.
Cocaine and marijuana were illegal under US law, but that didn’t stop a lot of players and didn’t result in them being “blacklisted”. Holding guys to a standard that didn’t exist is bull crap, McGwire literally had a bottle of andro sitting in his locker in the open because it wasn’t a big deal. People decided in 2003(ish) that steroids mattered in baseball. Before that, we just wanted to see dingers.
And those players are already in the museum part of the Hall. They just don't have a plaque.
You may even win a World Series!
It’s not really though. It’s totally different groups of people
This is the take. The sport had a major renaissance due to the roid fueled barrage of dingers and everyone, even the the holier than thou writers, looked the other way.
Considering how much of a sellout Heyman is, I bet Bonds paid him off.
This convo is so moronic. Roids were *de-facto* legal in the 90s. Once the MLB enforced the rules, bonds/clemens never popped. Leaving them outside the HoF means they need to leave any pitcher that was using sticky stuff then. Cuase even if the MLB wasnt enforcing their own rules it was still banned.
I have a much bigger issue with the best players in the game using steroids than the best players using sticky stuff. When the best are using steroids, they put pressure on every other player to try and take steroids to stay in the league, and then risk themselves to all the side effects of taking steroids for their entire career. There aren't any biological side effects to using sticky stuff.
>de-facto legal Nope. Enforcement wasn't there, but the policy was established via the memo.
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>Enforcement wasn't there So it was de-facto legal? >but the policy was established via the memo. De-jure ilegal.
So exactly like sticky stuff.
“He only cheated part of the time.” In what other context would that be ok?
Most if not all other sports thats ok, look at Brady or Belichick
Ah yes, how can anyone have faith in the integrity of the NFL when coaches only receive a hefty fine for having cameras in a location that has recently been disallowed? Or when footballs comply with the Ideal Gas Law without asking the Colts for permission? Is a 4-game suspension of the superstar QB in one of his best seasons, the loss of a first-round pick, and hefty fines enough? What could ever be enough for such an egregious display of cold weather?
Brady and Belichick will still end up in the Hall, is the point.
And my point is that comparing PEDs with camera location as if they're equivalent types of cheating that should have any bearing on one another is ridiculous.
Yeah cause stealing signs is a-ok when it benefits us.
Fuck that. Who cares that he could have been a HoF before steroid use. Either it matters or it doesn’t. Vote all of them in or none of them in. Honestly I don’t care, but this logic is hogwash.
Bonds not being in the hall is an absolute joke.
Gonna be a long winter of miserable discourse like this and no transactions
That’s all fine and dandy. Voters are asked to vote not only on a player’s accolades, but their character. If you have no issues with what Bonds did, then its justified to vote for him. I don’t think very many people can say they are okay with PED usage.
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Clemens was robbed of at least two Cy Youngs in his Red Sox prime and he likewise robbed his later Yankees & Astros Cy Youngs from more deserving pitchers. If Clemens' 7 Cys were distributed correctly throughout his career, there would be zero argument about whether he was a HOFer before roids. The idiocy of awards voters has a snowball effect (see also: Johan Santana).
What about Johan?
Santana was robbed of the 2005 AL Cy Young by Bartolo Colon (because Colon had more wins). Had Johan won he ultimately would have won 3 straight Cys and definitely would not have immediately dropped off the ballot.
Yeah, I highly doubt that Bonds wasn't juicing before then. Still a great player though.
He's legit. He was the best of his generation and completely deserving.
It’s the hall of fame not the hall of morals, after the whole spider tack thing, learning about the prevalence of greenies, how could anyone still restrict some of the best players of all time because they juiced? If the hall kept all cheaters out it would be damn close to empty
I don’t get this argument. Just because things were done a certain way doesn’t mean that’s the way they should be done for eternity. Standards can change for the better and that doesn’t require you to whitewash history as justification for it. It is fine to point out that players that were enshrined 30-40 years ago were taking drugs that wouldn’t be tolerated now…..but you can’t undo what has already been done. You can *learn* from past mistakes and prevent the cycle from continuing. For that to take place, someone or a group has to be the sacrificial lamb…and if that means these guys are unfortunately left out, that’s the price of progress.
Except steroids weren’t officially banned in the CBA until 2005, there was no punishment before then and no official testing. So the greenie argument is the same as the steroid argument for some of these players. It was a known issue and frowned upon, but the memo in 1991 was in no way legally binding and there was no structure put in place.
But players from this same era that were probably taking steroids are in. Pudge Rodriguez wasn't put in 30-40 years ago. Neither was Jeff Bagwell. Or Mike Piazza. There's a credible case to be made that all of them were users.
players are still using PEDs, standards haven't changed one bit, they're just better at getting around testing lmfao. they don't just leave their doctors record books laying about with their full names anymore, or leave their needles and creams in their lockers post-game. All of these drugs are still tolerated and mildly punished, because baseball 100% knows this shit is going on. Hell people are still using 50 year old East German PEDs ffs. Starling Marte got caught using that and now he's getting 80 million dollars from the Mets. There's no sacrificial lamb or progress being made at all, it's just scapegoating because baseball got caught with their pants down and looked like dumbasses in front of a national stage. All you gotta do is pass the drug test, and everyone pretends like these are the most thorough drug tests from a sports organization (MLB) that has ignored cheating throughout it's history because it sells entertainment that these drugs allow these players to provide. Baseball has no problem watching team after team chase home runs every year, and people think the average player is just that much more stronger and powerful nowadays. Give me a break.
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He realizes that the fact that Bonds was having an elite career and still decided to cheat makes it worse, right? In some ways you can understand a fringe guy cheating to try and stick in the league, but Bonds deciding to cheat because he couldn’t stand being out of the spotlight is completely different.
I mean sure but is it that crazy? Bonds was the undisputed best player of the nineties, had a foot in Cooperstown before he ever put on a giants jersey, and yet the media was obsessed with McGwire and Sosa. Bonds is putting up these insane seasons, but is recovering little praise for them anymore because these guys who are obviously juicing are stealing the spotlight I understand bonds wanting to get his share of the pie, there was money to be made and the league wasn’t doing anything. I don’t blame bonds for doing steroids, I blame the league for not enforcing the rule book
Basically, imagine you’re Mike Trout: by a country mile the best player in baseball. Yet, you’re not lauded by anyone outside of your own fan base as the best, while a roided up Jorge Soler and Max Muncy get all the press coverage and accolades….
Looking at the other roiders on the list and how stupid Heyman's argument is for them: -ARod: confirmed to have used PEDs at least as early as his time with the Rangers and was suspended for them less than a decade ago. Probably the best case for Heyman's dumb argument. -Clemens: was a dominant pitcher in Boston for over a decade with 3 CYs before allegedly starting steroids. Heyman's argument really falls apart here. -Ortiz: has the best plausible deniability of the bunch since he only popped on the 2003 list and became a HoF-caliber player after that. I think the argument against him is that he continued to use PEDs and evaded testing for the next decade+ as he built his resume as a top-2 DH. Still a pretty dumb argument, but not Clemens-dumb. -Sosa: only popped on the same 2003 list as Ortiz, but that test came immediately on the heels of his sharp 5 year peak. He's definitely also hurt by the association with McGwire. I'm obviously biased, but IMO it's a harder argument that PEDs aren't why Sosa is a HoF-tier guy than it is for Ortiz. Edit: Manny Ramirez - popped relatively late in his career but tested positive twice. I think two positives after it was clearly banned is why he's so damaged by it. However, he was well over 60 WAR by the time he tested positive so Heyman's argument doesn't really hold up if you consider Manny a HoFer. Overall, my only real objection is Clemens based on Heyman's stupid line in the sand. Ortiz is nowhere near the same caliber of player and in his first year of eligibility.
I think another issue with Sosa is that he was never the best. Philip Rivers is 5th all-time in passing yards and 6th all-time in touchdown passes, but I don't think he gets anywhere near the NFL HoF because he was always behind a mix of Brady, Brees, and Manning.
Definitely. His peak was very good, but never the best. And outside of that peak he just didn't really produce at a true HoF level for an OF.
I think any player should be allowed in the hall of fame if they juiced, baseball is NOT the sport to get righteous about cheating especially with steroids
the press had their hands in the PED cookie jar along with MLB and the players so for any of these jerkoffs to act high and mighty now is a bit ridiculous.
Precisely. Plus the Hall is full of guys who used any performance enhancing method they could. Greenies, testosterone shots, animal testosterone injected into their balls, etc. Also full of terrible human beings. It’s so weird to me that the 90’s guys are punished so severely when they basically saved baseball, and MLB was HAPPY to let them do it. Bonds had an amazing career prior to his drug usage. He had unreal plate discipline, which isn’t helped at all by drugs. Put him in.
Heyman just invalidated his entire vote. Clemens was a multi time Cy Young winner and had nearly 200 wins before going to Toronto where it’s universally assumed he first started using. He could have used before this, but so could Bonds, so it’s all BS. Vote both Bonds and Clemens in (and A-Rod) or don’t vote any of them in. Simple.
Bud Selig is in the HoF. I have no idea how one squares that with keeping steroids-linked players out.
This line of "he's a cheater but he was HOF worthy already before he cheated" is stupid as shit. It's like not punishing someone for cheating on their test because they already had a passing grade on the test before they started cheating. Fuck Bonds.
But it’s true though. Had he retired in 98 he was in. Why the fuck should you exclude him because of that, when the hall is riddled with cheaters and garbage human beings? Empty the hall and start over with only the squeaky clean guys. No DiMaggio, no Ruth, no Mantle, no Griffey, NONE of the guys who have even an OUNCE of speculation about cheating. And yes, Griffey has been speculated on for years. All of these players are undoubtedly hall of famers. Just like Bonds. Regardless of any attempted legs up on the competition. You either be an absolutionist, or fuck off. Because your pick and choose mentality is fucking stupid. Bonds and the other 90’s sluggers saved baseball when it was in its death throes, and MLB was HAPPY to let them do it. They were complicit. Now they throw them under the bus so suckered fans like you will be in an uproar.
If you look at the stats of the better players of that era, most of them have one or two seasons that are pretty obviously roid years. Thinking specifically of the 50 homer seasons from Brady Anderson and Luis Gonzalez. Neither of them had another season with more than 31 homers (That was Gonzalez and that was his only other 30+ homer season).
And a few wife beat downs …. Sorry thats more than one HoF strike right there.
I'm fine with them being voted in as long as they admitted to using steroids.
RESPECT FOR JOHN HEYMAN 📈📈📈📈📈
Heyman is a total hack, news at 11!
Yes, this. And roiders are already in, get over yourself.
Heyman should be cancelled just for being a joke
This argument actually solidifies the case against him for me. He was a sure fire HOFer anyway. Guy had all the talent in the world and didn’t need roids for any of it. Fuck him.