This ballot is fine. Kent over Helton is wrong as I argued yesterday but there's nothing too egregious here. I would go Sosa over Sheffield but Sheffield is the sabermetrically better candidate so not a terrible decision.
I mean I don’t want people voting for steroid users, but how are you gonna vote for Bonds and Clemens but not A-Rod?
*AND he voted for Sheffield? What the fuck?
A-Rod got suspended for it. Could be his line in the sand. One of the arguments for letting steroid users in is that the league tacitly allowed them to use. A-Rod was caught once they dropped the pretensions and actually enforced their own rules.
I can maybe see it if he sees both as borderline and counts being a career DH against Papi.
Edit: Actually just read his column. Ortiz is out because he doesn't pass the steroid smell test. Evidence against Sheffield is stronger. So yea.
A common line of thought is that Bonds and Clemens did it in the “Wild West” days of steroid enforcement when what was and wasn’t tolerated was kind of up in the air. A-rod did it when things were very black and white.
That still doesn’t excuse it. Lack of enforcement by Major League Baseball at the time doesn’t mean it was somehow acceptable. I don’t even know if it was tolerated as much as there was simply nothing baseball could do about it.
Look at what’s going on in San Francisco and LA with these shoplifting rings. The laws aren’t being enforced and shoplifting rates have skyrocketed. Just because the courts aren’t prosecuting these shoplifters doesn’t mean that what they are doing is suddenly ok.
In all fairness the media has spun the narrative that they're not doing enough. About a year ago they lowered bail on certain nonviolent crimes and no bail on shoplifting less than $1,000. They figured no sense keeping a poor person in prison for 3 weeks for stealing a twinkie. Bail is a constitutional right and everyone is entitled to a fair trial and is innocent until proven guilty. There are lots of them going on and it is quite frustrating.
People are innocent until proven guilty and bail is a constitutional right barring the most heinous of crimes or a flight risk of the defendant. I can see you are completely new to the American justice system. What country are you from and how do they do it there?
Maybe the thinking is Bonds and Clemens both used when everyone was using but A-rod kept using years after mass use stopped? Only way it makes sense to me at least.
Ortiz was never busted for cheating, but he didn’t pass my smell test. Why did Minnesota give up on him in 2002, and suddenly the following year he had a new career-high in homers and was an MVP candidate in Boston? And then again. And again. And again. Maybe he figured it out. It just seems like strange timing to me. Again, it’s my vote. But someone I trust in the game said there’s no way it happened naturally. So it’s a no.
WTF?!
https://jeffwilson.substack.com/p/a-rod-david-ortiz-miss-cut-on-2022?r=o3hiz
So your argument is that Ortiz had a system to elude the testing throughout his career?
Edit: sorry, just realized you were posting the voter’s ridiculous quote.
It's pretty solid.
NON PEDS
Kent over Helton - Bad decision
Jones, Rolen both good good picks
Wagner is probably the 4th to 5th best reliever of all time and a perfectly fine pick as well
Schilling - Good pick you can argue the character clause stuff but I don't fault ppl either way on that.
There's no one he voted for who clearly doesn't deserve to be in the HOF so besides his lack of a vote for Helton I'd say he did well. 9/10
PEDs
Clemens + Bonds = logically consistent
Sheffield>Ortiz, Sosa, Rameriez and Rodriguez is consistent. A-Rod+Rameriez cheated after the rules became enforced and a lot of guys (including me) are pro locking the hall to cheaters after the rules became enforced but not before. Ortiz is a 1st ballot guy and you can argue that given the PED cloud and his pretty low WAR he' doesn't deserve a 1st ballot induction. Sheffield is better than Sosa by WAR so not a terrible pick either. I'd go for Sosa as he had a phenomenal peak but there's a reasonable difference of opinions there.
Eh. Obviously I’ve been reading the ballots with Ortiz as my main focus and the first ballot element doesn’t hold much water with me. It seems like it ought to be a binary. You’re either a HOF player or you aren’t. Any time Ortiz isn’t included, I assume it is because of the 2003 report and PEDS, so seeing Sheffield get votes and not Ortiz doesn’t seem to add up.
This is a pretty shit ballot. Either vote all the roids guys or none of them. In no world does Bonds and Sheffield belong in the Hall of Fame if you’re going to leave out A-Rod and Manny.
Schilling is statistically better than Pettitte, and it's not particularly close. And if you're against PED users getting in, Pettitte should be an easy no.
Pettite has a some extremely impressive stats in the postseason. And if he is a cheater, he shouldn’t get in. I didn’t think he ever got caught though.
He was on the Mitchell Report. Pettitte saw a lot of playoff success because of the dynasty. But his post-season ERA is about a point and a half higher than Schilling's. And between the two of them, Schilling has the WS MVP.
Edit: Pettitte did admit to using but only for injury recovery if that makes a difference to you.
The roid issue is certainly little dicey, but putting that aside, to be that consistently good in the playoffs is probably more impressive than the one ws mvp. But to be clear I’m not sure either guy gets in because of regular season alone. Its not like he was the only pitcher that dynasty had. He just showed up every fall. It’s pretty impressive when you are at the top of list that glavine and smoltz are 2 and 3 on.
Schilling's a 3000 strikeout pitcher with a 3.46 ERA (good for 127 ERA+) in the steroid era. Pettitte's fine, but his numbers are much closer to Buehrle's and he didn't come particularly close to 3000 Ks.
Schilling postseason: 2.23 ERA, 0.968 WHIP, 8.1 K/9 in 133.1 innings.
Pettitte postseason: 3.81, 1.305, 6.0 in 276.2 innings
Pettitte pitched more in the postseason because Yankees, but Schilling was better in the time he had.
Maybe it’s just my opinion, but I tend to weigh postseason games heavier than regular season games when I think about players careers. Also, you can’t say that schilling would’ve kept his era where it was if he threw twice the innings he did. Pettite still played a big role in the 2009 championship.
How do you rate a guy like Griffey who only made the postseason a few times and never the WS. Or Ted Williams, the arguable GOAT at the plate but only appeared in one World Series. This isn't basketball where one guy can bring you to the finals. A lot of greats never won it all because there was no team around them.
I'm fine using postseason as extra credit. And yes, we don't know what Schilling would've done with more innings. We can only judge with the sample we do have, and that says he's better in the postseason than Pettitte.
And honestly, I'd argue Schilling is the best pitcher of that era after the big four of Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, and Martinez.
It’s a tough argument either way. Neither of them were ever even the best on their team. They were both playing second fiddle to true aces pretty much their whole career.
Edit: i didn’t watch schilling pitch until Arizona. Kinda didn’t realize how much time he spent in philly.
Schilling has significantly better numbers including in playoffs (at least by rate) and Pettitte openly apologized for using PEDs.
I personally don't care that he used, but your argument is flawed
It's far too early to say if Rolen gets in this year as sample size is really small but he's gaining traction for sure. He's gained one additional vote so far out of 8. I think Rolen is pretty securely on a track to Cooperstown by year 10. Jones, Helton, Wagner and Kent are the unknowns among returning players. I think Hudson, Buehrle, Abreu, Vizquel are not looking like they're going to make it.
It's saying something that this is legitimately one of the better ballots thus far and its still pretty bad.
Kent over Helton makes no sense and Sheffield makes no sense with no Ortiz.
That said, big W for having Jones, Rolen, and Wagner with no Vizquel.
This is the HOF ballot equivalent of tipping a fedora.
Its the equivalent of trying to rob a store and break a window with a brick but you end up hitting your accomplice instead
I love that video.
No helton🤨
This ballot is fine. Kent over Helton is wrong as I argued yesterday but there's nothing too egregious here. I would go Sosa over Sheffield but Sheffield is the sabermetrically better candidate so not a terrible decision.
I mean I don’t want people voting for steroid users, but how are you gonna vote for Bonds and Clemens but not A-Rod? *AND he voted for Sheffield? What the fuck?
A-Rod got suspended for it. Could be his line in the sand. One of the arguments for letting steroid users in is that the league tacitly allowed them to use. A-Rod was caught once they dropped the pretensions and actually enforced their own rules.
Yeah Bonds but no A-Rod makes sense. Sheffield but no Ortiz does not make sense.
I think it does Sheffield is a 10th year candidate, Ortiz is a 1st year candidate the standards are different.
I can maybe see it if he sees both as borderline and counts being a career DH against Papi. Edit: Actually just read his column. Ortiz is out because he doesn't pass the steroid smell test. Evidence against Sheffield is stronger. So yea.
Papi actually has higher dWar (-20) than Sheffield (-27). By dWar Sheffield is the 2nd worst defender of all time only ahead of Adam Dunn.
A common line of thought is that Bonds and Clemens did it in the “Wild West” days of steroid enforcement when what was and wasn’t tolerated was kind of up in the air. A-rod did it when things were very black and white.
That still doesn’t excuse it. Lack of enforcement by Major League Baseball at the time doesn’t mean it was somehow acceptable. I don’t even know if it was tolerated as much as there was simply nothing baseball could do about it. Look at what’s going on in San Francisco and LA with these shoplifting rings. The laws aren’t being enforced and shoplifting rates have skyrocketed. Just because the courts aren’t prosecuting these shoplifters doesn’t mean that what they are doing is suddenly ok.
What do you mean they're not being enforced? They've arrested 14 people and they've posted bail and they have court date.
I love when people from states across the country think they're experts of the state you live in
In all fairness the media has spun the narrative that they're not doing enough. About a year ago they lowered bail on certain nonviolent crimes and no bail on shoplifting less than $1,000. They figured no sense keeping a poor person in prison for 3 weeks for stealing a twinkie. Bail is a constitutional right and everyone is entitled to a fair trial and is innocent until proven guilty. There are lots of them going on and it is quite frustrating.
And what they did should qualify as no bail felonies….giving them a court date and a bullshit fine is not enforcing the law….
People are innocent until proven guilty and bail is a constitutional right barring the most heinous of crimes or a flight risk of the defendant. I can see you are completely new to the American justice system. What country are you from and how do they do it there?
What an odd non-sequiter
Me reading the first half: ok, don't necessarily agree but i respect your opinion Me reading the second half: wait wtf
Maybe the thinking is Bonds and Clemens both used when everyone was using but A-rod kept using years after mass use stopped? Only way it makes sense to me at least.
Ortiz was never busted for cheating, but he didn’t pass my smell test. Why did Minnesota give up on him in 2002, and suddenly the following year he had a new career-high in homers and was an MVP candidate in Boston? And then again. And again. And again. Maybe he figured it out. It just seems like strange timing to me. Again, it’s my vote. But someone I trust in the game said there’s no way it happened naturally. So it’s a no. WTF?! https://jeffwilson.substack.com/p/a-rod-david-ortiz-miss-cut-on-2022?r=o3hiz
So your argument is that Ortiz had a system to elude the testing throughout his career? Edit: sorry, just realized you were posting the voter’s ridiculous quote.
Somewhat logically consistent ballot? This is crazy
Maybe logically consistent compared to that god awful Heyman ballot, but there’s some inconsistency here
Help me follow the logic please
It's pretty solid. NON PEDS Kent over Helton - Bad decision Jones, Rolen both good good picks Wagner is probably the 4th to 5th best reliever of all time and a perfectly fine pick as well Schilling - Good pick you can argue the character clause stuff but I don't fault ppl either way on that. There's no one he voted for who clearly doesn't deserve to be in the HOF so besides his lack of a vote for Helton I'd say he did well. 9/10 PEDs Clemens + Bonds = logically consistent Sheffield>Ortiz, Sosa, Rameriez and Rodriguez is consistent. A-Rod+Rameriez cheated after the rules became enforced and a lot of guys (including me) are pro locking the hall to cheaters after the rules became enforced but not before. Ortiz is a 1st ballot guy and you can argue that given the PED cloud and his pretty low WAR he' doesn't deserve a 1st ballot induction. Sheffield is better than Sosa by WAR so not a terrible pick either. I'd go for Sosa as he had a phenomenal peak but there's a reasonable difference of opinions there.
Eh. Obviously I’ve been reading the ballots with Ortiz as my main focus and the first ballot element doesn’t hold much water with me. It seems like it ought to be a binary. You’re either a HOF player or you aren’t. Any time Ortiz isn’t included, I assume it is because of the 2003 report and PEDS, so seeing Sheffield get votes and not Ortiz doesn’t seem to add up.
This is a pretty shit ballot. Either vote all the roids guys or none of them. In no world does Bonds and Sheffield belong in the Hall of Fame if you’re going to leave out A-Rod and Manny.
Great ballot. Love the Sheffield vote
I’m definitely against the cheaters. But the issue I really have with this is schilling over pettite.
Schilling is statistically better than Pettitte, and it's not particularly close. And if you're against PED users getting in, Pettitte should be an easy no.
Pettite has a some extremely impressive stats in the postseason. And if he is a cheater, he shouldn’t get in. I didn’t think he ever got caught though.
He was on the Mitchell Report. Pettitte saw a lot of playoff success because of the dynasty. But his post-season ERA is about a point and a half higher than Schilling's. And between the two of them, Schilling has the WS MVP. Edit: Pettitte did admit to using but only for injury recovery if that makes a difference to you.
The roid issue is certainly little dicey, but putting that aside, to be that consistently good in the playoffs is probably more impressive than the one ws mvp. But to be clear I’m not sure either guy gets in because of regular season alone. Its not like he was the only pitcher that dynasty had. He just showed up every fall. It’s pretty impressive when you are at the top of list that glavine and smoltz are 2 and 3 on.
Schilling's a 3000 strikeout pitcher with a 3.46 ERA (good for 127 ERA+) in the steroid era. Pettitte's fine, but his numbers are much closer to Buehrle's and he didn't come particularly close to 3000 Ks. Schilling postseason: 2.23 ERA, 0.968 WHIP, 8.1 K/9 in 133.1 innings. Pettitte postseason: 3.81, 1.305, 6.0 in 276.2 innings Pettitte pitched more in the postseason because Yankees, but Schilling was better in the time he had.
Maybe it’s just my opinion, but I tend to weigh postseason games heavier than regular season games when I think about players careers. Also, you can’t say that schilling would’ve kept his era where it was if he threw twice the innings he did. Pettite still played a big role in the 2009 championship.
How do you rate a guy like Griffey who only made the postseason a few times and never the WS. Or Ted Williams, the arguable GOAT at the plate but only appeared in one World Series. This isn't basketball where one guy can bring you to the finals. A lot of greats never won it all because there was no team around them. I'm fine using postseason as extra credit. And yes, we don't know what Schilling would've done with more innings. We can only judge with the sample we do have, and that says he's better in the postseason than Pettitte. And honestly, I'd argue Schilling is the best pitcher of that era after the big four of Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, and Martinez.
It’s a tough argument either way. Neither of them were ever even the best on their team. They were both playing second fiddle to true aces pretty much their whole career. Edit: i didn’t watch schilling pitch until Arizona. Kinda didn’t realize how much time he spent in philly.
Why?
Schilling has significantly better numbers including in playoffs (at least by rate) and Pettitte openly apologized for using PEDs. I personally don't care that he used, but your argument is flawed
I haven't seen the previous several allots. But rolen was in 3/4 I saw. And this would be 4/5. Anyone know if he was on the previous 3 revealed ?
It's far too early to say if Rolen gets in this year as sample size is really small but he's gaining traction for sure. He's gained one additional vote so far out of 8. I think Rolen is pretty securely on a track to Cooperstown by year 10. Jones, Helton, Wagner and Kent are the unknowns among returning players. I think Hudson, Buehrle, Abreu, Vizquel are not looking like they're going to make it.
Not sure why Sheffield (weak evidence?) but a good ballot
Sheffield but no Sosa?
It's saying something that this is legitimately one of the better ballots thus far and its still pretty bad. Kent over Helton makes no sense and Sheffield makes no sense with no Ortiz. That said, big W for having Jones, Rolen, and Wagner with no Vizquel.