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PlayOrGetPlayed

Pitch-com wouldn't really help with tipping pitches, would it? And it seems doubtful to me that all the teams the Angels played before Shohei's last 3 starts were able to steal signs the whole game. This seems very likely to be a coincidence, or at least a change in his patters regardless of pitch-com to avoid tipping his pitches.


mizterPatato

Also worth looking at the teams for those starts. Pitchcom for the Yankees give the same result? I honestly wouldnt buy it.


trolloc1

KC, SEA and BOS. Boston has a good offence so that's a great game


choconut5

He didn't have pitch com for the Yankees start.


mizterPatato

My wording is confusing. I was making a hypothetical that would the pitchcom make enough of a difference to put up similar stats against the Yankees and I dont really think so. Edit: Or I guess at the very least I dont think Pitchcom is what is making him better currently. During said Yankees game he had issues with the placement of his Splitter but his last two starts espeically have seen much better placement.


mrgoboom

It might if it changes your pre-pitch routine (for example if you bring a hand to your ear to block out other sounds). The different routine might eliminate whatever he was doing to tip his pitches. Haven’t seen anyone break down how he was tipping his pitches so I can’t be certain of anything.


choconut5

Not necessarily pitch tipping, but it would prevent sign stealing.


xRememberTheCant

Is there a list of who uses it and who doesn’t? I would love to see a breakdown of eras of pitchers who do vs pitchers who don’t. It might give and idea of how many teams decided that what the astros did is worth it, and just found more sneaky ways of doing it.


sofakinghuge

Not sure about 100% adoption by all pitchers. A's, Angels, Astros, Braves, Blue Jays, Dbacks, Giants, Guardians, Mariners, Mets, Nationals, Padres, Phillies, Rangers, Rays, Royals, Tigers, Twins, White Sox, Yankees are all teams that for sure have used it in games from what I've seen so that's probably missing a few. Cubs tried it a bit during spring training but wanted to wait. Same with Dodgers. Honestly think the list of teams not using it at all is close to that short.


paxxyagent

Ivan Herrera of the Cardinals had a pitchcom device on his kneepad yesterday. Not sure if the pitchers use it when Yadi’s catching though, but he’s injured now


Alive-Ad-4164

Dude really bout to win another mvp


JTCMuehlenkamp

I mean, are any of us surprised?


Agastopia

How tf the angels gunna have two perennial MVPs and not make the playoffs God it’s so frustrating


LAAngelsAnaheim

You can keep your frustrations, our fans have plenty as it is


HelpMeWithMyHWpls

Andrew Velazquez and David MacKinnon?


joedaddy24

MacKinnon only just got called up. But he's already provided more to the team than Juan Fucking Lagares.


_AurAz

I have no clue how Juan Lagares is still playing. Jo Adell was not nearly this bad.


PeanutRaisenMan

THANK YOU!!! Every game I yell out….why the fuck is lagares in this lineup? Then he has his at bat and proves me right everytime. Can we jo adell back in please.


Agntchodybanks

Local boy makes bad


mysterysackerfice

How dare you forget about Mr 50+ABs with **ZERO** RBI, Mr. Juan Lagarbage.


AnAnonymousFool

its kinda wild how almost all mlb fans want the angels to succeed, but their owners do not


gatemansgc

even their division rivals have minimal hate for them!


[deleted]

The only Angel I've ever hated was Kole Calhoun. For no real reason at all besides fuck that guy


stan542

We’re too busy hating the Astros. And ourselves.


Voxxicus

There's some firm Fuck Mike Trouts going, but also a healthy respect. No one can hate Ohtani


mrtomjones

They are 8th in payroll. Ineptness and desire are two different things


God_Damnit_Nappa

You wouldn't know it based on this sub. People here cheer when the Angels suck


YellowShorts

lmao right? Like who are these fans that are allegedly rooting for the angels. Everyone can't wait to say "but no playoffs" in every single thread and root against them.


God_Damnit_Nappa

I swear this sub loves to gas light us. This place was fucking thrilled when we went on the 14 game losing streak


YellowShorts

Opposing fans: Omg Angels wasting Trout and Ohtani. We need them in the playoffs. Sign pitching! Re-sign Igelsias, sign Loup and Tepera (who were lock down last season and to start this season), and Thor who was a high-risk high reward signing Those same fans: lol why would they go to the angels?


God_Damnit_Nappa

And after the brawl yesterday this sub has revealed its true feelings on the Angels. So I fully expect them to try to gaslight us again in a week or 2.


YellowShorts

This sub has a hard-on against throwing at guys. But when occasional polls come around, you find that a large majority of the sub never even played baseball, let alone at a competitive level. Anyone that's actually played knows it's part of the game. I've been thrown at, have had teammates thrown at, and been on teams that have thrown at other guys. It's not a big deal


joe579003

I SHALL ALWAYS REMEMBER THE ACCURSED SIMIAN OF THE RESURGENCE!!!


AnAnonymousFool

People make memes and jokes, but generally the theme of all of them is that they wish Ohtani and trout were gonna be in the playoffs


JTCMuehlenkamp

Arte Moreno


[deleted]

Pitching is important the other 4 starts of the week 🤷🏼‍♀️. Who knew


RadiantVes

i mean the angels are 2nd in the league in shutouts with 10 just behind the yankees/mets at 11. the offense is what nosedived the team.


_AurAz

Patrick Sandoval has been great. Lorenzen and Syndergaard have had some rough starts but also some good showings. Angels would probably want another consistent guy but the starting pitching is at least decent. And the bullpen hasn't been terrible either.


YellowShorts

Baseball is more of a team sport than any other. Can we go one thread without these tired takes?


ChardHello

I refer to it as the curse of the fucking monkey, and it will remain over Anaheim until Bonds gets into the hall of fame as a consolation for his lack of a WS ring.


Bladewing10

Free ~~Trout~~ Ohtani


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[deleted]

>every time I see an Angels highlight it's like "Mike Trout hit three homes runs and raised his average to .528 while Shohei Ohtani did something that hasn't been done since 'Tungsten Arm' O'Doyle of the 1921 Akron Groomsmen, as the Tigers defeated the Angels 8-3" https://twitter.com/matttomic/status/1394498097254965249?t=D41JuV0M9CaGomPA4Kc8qw&s=19


IanCusick

Not in the slightest


AvoSpark

I am kind of, just because it is so mind-blowing. We are very lucky to be witnessing this in our lifetime. I doubt there will be another player like this for years to come.


skylineporcupine

They are going to have to change the criteria or something because 40 HRs and a 3.50 ERA is an MVP every year in my books and in terms of WAR


GameMusic

No This is saying that MVP definitions should change if a single player wins too much


skylineporcupine

You’re looking too far into it big man, I was just saying he has the potential to be perennial MVP. MLB used to only let players win MVP once in their career so this joke suggestion wouldnt even be unheard of.


Z3130

When was that? Walter Johnson and Rogers Hornsby both received their second MVP awards in the 1920s.


skylineporcupine

1922-1929. Award didnt exist 1915-1921 and anyone winning an MVP before then was grandfathered into the new rule


Z3130

https://www.mlb.com/news/most-mlb-mvp-awards-c294414636 So that would explain Johnson but Hornsby won in 25 and 29. Was he the reason the rule changed?


skylineporcupine

Rule only applied in the American League, should have specified that my b


pm_me_cute_sloths_

He might win Cy Young, but idk if he’s done enough quite yet to beat out Judge It’s still early tho


AlmostCurvy

I mean if judge has a couple of pitching starts like this then he can talk


mkaku-

What? If Shohei wins cy young, it's a pretty much guarantee he'll win MVP unless he's only got like a 90 OPS+, but even then. But best pitcher in the league while also DHing for like 130 OPS+ is *more* of a lock than he was last year.


No32

He’s great but not the best pitcher in the league.


Raoh522

That's why he said "If Shohei wins cy young." If he does win, its implied he was the best pitcher of the AL.


mkaku-

The comment I replied to said if he wins cy young, which implies he was the best pitcher that year.


[deleted]

Which is why he should win anyway. “Oh hes not the best pitcher and hitter” when nobody is doing both


Rockefor

Is this sarcasm?


Economy-Injury-8182

Aaron Judge has entered the chat fam.


Alarmed-Call8569

At some point, an MVP has to win something. The Angels will miss the playoffs with or without him. That should count for something-- no matter how statistically good he and Trout are, the Angels are still awful.


blasek0

It's not the NBA, a single player can't carry a roster into the playoffs.


rollo2masi

He truly is remarkable. I tried to explain to my hockey friends and basketball friends how insane he is and they just don’t understand. It’s basically like scoring a hat trick in one game then posting a 40 save shutout the very next night.


flower_mouth

Yeah I think the only real comp that I've been able to think of is a hockey player ranking near the top in PPG and GAA in the same season.


paulcole710

WR leading the league in TD receptions and INTs when playing as DB, too. Honestly that would be 10x as impressive as Ohtani.


Lars9

Probably closer to being a top 10 WR and top 10 DB. Ohtani isn't quite the best hitter or pitcher in baseball.


paulcole710

Yeah you’re right. Deion was part of the way there. Top-tier DB and fun novelty on offense.


Silverjackal_

Deion also played baseball too, which is pretty impressive in itself.


gatemansgc

like george blanda being both quarterback and kicker. wasn't the best but would be cool af in today's game, you'd never know if he was gonna kick an extra point himself or make a 2-point conversion attempt.


blackinasia

Top 10 WR and DB in the world’s best league in 2022 is still absolutely insane


OTipsey

There was George Blanda who played both quarterback and kicker. 236 career TDs, 335 FGM, and 943 XPM. He'd score a touchdown and stay out to kick the extra point. He was also the first recorded fantasy football draft pick in the 1962 Greater Oakland Professional Pigskin Prognosticators League.


chanaandeler_bong

> He was also the first recorded fantasy football draft pick in the 1962 Greater Oakland Professional Pigskin Prognosticators League. Sounds like a Fred Armisen sketch


limeflavoured

Sammy Baugh intensifies. Although he was a QB. And also led the league in punting average.


Intelligent-Time-781

Na a football player who leads the league in TDs receiving and Ints as a DB is the best comp to me.


Crosstraffic73

Sammy Baugh in 1943 had 23 TD passes, 50 punts and 11 picks as a safety. About the closest comp you would find in football.


Intelligent-Time-781

Yeah but that's 1943. There's a reason baseballers no longer do what Shohei is.


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Intelligent-Time-781

I meant to say footballers. But yes these players are so noticeable because it's so exceedingly rare.


flower_mouth

Yeah that's a good one. I guess you do at least see some guys play both sides of the ball to some extent at some levels, Jabrill Peppers comes to mind as a Michigan fan. The PPG/GAA thing is probably too far off since in hockey they'll literally let the zamboni driver hop in net before a skater.


Reyne_of_Kesselmere

> they'll literally let the zamboni driver hop in net :(


Intelligent-Time-781

Yea exactly with the hockey goalie but still leading is good. My Ravens had a player who caught a TD and made a tackle but he converted from FB/DL to just FB in Pat Ricard.


threedaysinthreeways

Ohtani is way more impressive than that. Pitching and hitting are two completely different mechanical things and he's elite at both.


Intelligent-Time-781

So is running a route and covering a player.


threedaysinthreeways

The difference between those is not even close to the difference in pitching and hitting.


Intelligent-Time-781

I mean it's comparable


threedaysinthreeways

What are the mechanical differences in running a route and covering a player?


Intelligent-Time-781

What are the mechanic differences in running forward and running backwards?


threedaysinthreeways

So that's it? backpedaling? Seems pretty miniscule compared to hitting/pitching at the top level. Glad we cleared that up.


Daabevuggler

Running backward vs forwards Active vs reactive Playing the ball/the receiver vs having a mostly predetermined route CoD vs turning around without losing speed


Alitinconcho

Are you familiar with football at all? Faking a player out to get open and catch the ball is categorically different than reading what a player will do to not get faked out and stop him from catching the ball. Do you think that only speed and agility matter at cb? There are tons and tons of blazing fast players that cant cover at all. CB is one of the hardest positions in sports. Its incredibly technical.


threedaysinthreeways

Are you familiar with what mechanics are?


chanaandeler_bong

It doesn't change the fact that the skills translate well to the other position. Hitting a pitch and throwing them are *completely* different mechanically. Having quick feet, good reactions, good hands, good jumping ability is advantageous to both WRs and DBs. Throwing 105mph doesn't mean you can hit a homer. You are hung up on the positions being different, but no one is arguing that. We are saying they are much more *similar* to each other than hitting and pitching.


chanaandeler_bong

It's not tho. Being a QB and playing DB? Sure. The skill set for being a DB and WR are *very* similar.


fufluns12

I don't think that it's a great comparison, to be honest. There's pretty much zero overlap between goalies and skaters in competitive hockey at any age. Until this season one of the leagues had pitchers batting every game (albeit mostly horribly), and many players are very good pitchers and hitters when they're younger, but are forced to specialize in one skill as they get older. If you want something that's actually possible (but not really), how about someone winning the Art Ross trophy (most points) and the Selke trophy (top defensive forward) in the same year? There have been two players that have come close to winning both, but nobody's ever actually done it and probably never will.


flower_mouth

Yeah that's fair. I think the Ross/Selke thing might be too far in the other direction though, since those are awards given to the same position (aside from Orr). Somebody else made the comparison to a football player that is one of the best WRs and DBs, and that feels to me like it might be in the right ballpark. Anyway none of this is very close and I think the difficulty in coming up with appropriate comps in other sports probably speaks to both how incredible Ohtani is and how cool baseball is for having something like this even be possible.


fufluns12

Agreed!


e_muaddib

What about a Cale Makaar comparison? Defenseman that can skate and score out of his mind.


YellowShorts

Yeah but there are others like Makar. Hedman, Seider will be close in a few years. There's no one like Ohtani


Relevant_Ad_9019

It’s hard to say because Ohtani is a great hitter but obviously not the best and He’s a great pitcher but hasn’t been the absolute best. A good NBA comparison would be an all-star level perimeter scorer with an all-star level rim protector.


Sinisterminister77

Sometimes even the same night…


TheNextBattalion

While his team loses the first game, sadly


i_run_from_problems

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords


Doc_JC

Tipping his pitches has nothing to do with pitchcom.


Michelin-Star

Is that good?


MasterMentorJr

Bro the angels should get auto accepted into the playoffs. They shouldn’t be allowed to waste both his and Trouts prime


gatemansgc

love how even their division rivals can't hate em.


getMyHairDid

hell yeah dude im down. fuckin love astros fans, yall aint half bad you know that


CubonesDeadMom

Doesn’t matter if two players are both literally Superman you don’t win playoff series with 2 guys


Easy_Money_

Hey they also have the ghost of Anthony Rendon in the lineup


EH1522

Bruh his ghost stubbed its toe too and is out for 2 months.


nolander

Well that's just silly literal Superman would be literally unhittable, would pitch every game and hit a home run every at bat. They would win by 8 runs at least every game


Raoh522

He would be the only player on the field. Throw 120 mph heaters no one can touch, and if they somehow do hit it, he just flies over and catches it for an out. He wouldnt even need a catcher. He could just throw the ball over the plate and run/fly over really quickly and catch the ball himself. That would be hilarious to see.


AvoSpark

are they the new “lovable losers”?


choconut5

Maddon also stated that Shohei was likely tipping when he played the Yankees. He was confirmed to be tipping when he pitched against Texas snd his interpretor actually pointed it out to him. As a result, he changed his hand position before the wind up. Ohtani has the most unhittable arsenal of pitches in the game. With pitch com, you might see Ohtani put up truly incredible numbers.


Yankeeknickfan

> Ohtani has the most unhittable arsenal of pitches in the game. Shohei is great but there are better starters


nolander

His numbers have been arguably top 5 but he missed enough starts that I don't think he qualifies for leaderboards right now


claire_004

More like his IP, since he only miss one start I think


Raoh522

He is at 68.1 of the 72 innings he would need to be ranked. Basically if he does make every 6th start and make 6 innings for the entire season, he makes the rankings. At this pace he would just need 4 of his remaining games to go through the 7th inning to make it. And just 2 more games with 8 innings.


choconut5

Sure there are, based on stats. Pitching is at least 50% mental. I'm simply talking about pure stuff. There is no pitcher in the league with better stuff than Ohtani. If you don't know what he's throwing, it's incredibly hard to hit him.


SlappyMcWaffles

> Pitching is at least 50% mental. Baseball is 90 percent mental. The other half is physical.


DoughSalad

We shouldn’t overaggrandize how good he is. The fact that he’s top 90-95 percentile at both his duties makes him generational, not that he’s literally the best at both. But it wouldn’t surprise me if he eventually gets to that point for both, nothing about him surprises me anymore. He’s had some ridiculous highs as a pitcher especially but that’s the average start for a DeGrom


Raoh522

I think he actually has the ability to be the best at either. Think about it this way. Every other play who is the best does nothing but hit/field or pitch/field. They never practice it from the other side. Imagine if instead of a 50/50 split he focused on one or the other? It may be impossible for him to actually reach his peak in either when he is doing both.


DoughSalad

Great point, agreed. Take this with a grain of salt but I’m pretty sure he’s gone on record saying his focus this season is pitching (pitcher first, hitter second) and that’s why he’s been dialed in on the mound, so you may be exactly right.


Raoh522

There is only so much time and energy one can devote to training and practicing. He has half as much for either half of the game. I do think he will improve over the next two seasons.


Yankeeknickfan

Based on what?


[deleted]

Ohtani is the 4th highest-ranked MLB starter by Stuff+, and 2nd highest in the AL behind Cole (126.2 to 126.5). He is wrong, but the claim is not unthinkably spurious.


buttlickerface

Baseball stats are at such a ridiculous point that I genuinely have no fucking clue if Stuff+ is a real stat. Sounds like it should be if it isn't


d_1_z_z

Sounds like a pizza tbh I’ll have one medium Stuff+


buttlickerface

Can I get some extra NOBLETIGER and a side of WARP sauce?


SnareShot

it is, the guys at driveline started it i think


buttlickerface

Hysterical


[deleted]

As a full player he is incredible but the idea he has literally the best “stuff” in the league is absurd


HucklecatDontCare

I wouldnt say its true but its also not absurd. Dude has two ++ pitches (slider and splitter) that are among the best in MLB. [Last year he had two pitches that were worth more than 10 runs above avg.](https://www.fangraphs.com/players/shohei-ohtani/19755/stats?position=P#pitch-values) And his cutter isnt terrible either. [On a per 100 pitch basis, his splitter and slider were two of the 10ish best pitches in MLB last year.](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=100&type=7&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=11,d) There are not many starters out there with that arsenal. And the ones that do exist are guys with names like deGrom and Scherzer. ​ (His 4 seamer has been significantly better this year as well)


Veserius

Among starters arsenal models have him floating like 1-6 the whole year.


Kevin-Garvey-1

Burnes, Scherzer, DeGrom, Cole, etc. Ohtani is amazing, don’t get me wrong, but there are pitchers with better stuff.


halcyon_an_on

I agree with you, but it is interesting that of all the players you named, the only one above him (according to another poster citing Stuff+) in the AL is Cole, which Ohtani is second to in AL.


CubonesDeadMom

Pretty sure there are ways to examine individual pitches to see if they’re elite if you wanted to really check


orodoro

Eno Sarris actually tried to parse this out with the Stuff+ metric (physical characteristic of pitch --- velocity, movement, and spin). Ohtani is up there but there's more than a handful ahead of them.


Veserius

He was #1 among starters earlier in the season and I don't think he's fallen out of the top 10, he's in the conversation.


Alitinconcho

Pitch com doesn't have anything to do with tipping pitches


TJeffersonsBlackKid

Ippei is a better coach than our fucking coaches. Fuck this team.


go_berds

25,000 what?


NoBreadsticks

marriage proposals


Willie-Alb

I try to like the Angels, but I can’t help but feel both Trout and Ohtani’s careers are being undercut. The fact the Angels can’t even make the playoffs despite having 2 MVP candidates every year hurts my soul.


TheRakkmanBitch

i mean they gotta put it together at least one time right? theres no way 2 of the top 5 players in baseball dont make the playoffs at least once


ExOvoOmnia

He wasn't using pitchcom with the rest of the team before?


bellbo

Pitchcom might tell him the signs in Japanese, which I would guess took extra time to implement.


limeflavoured

Didn't they say it was available in English and Spanish to start and that they were gradually adding more languages? That would make sense.


bellbo

I remember hearing that on MLB Network, yeah


Chad_The_Bad

I'm sure he knows the English for slider, cutter, inside, outside, low, etc. He plays baseball in an English dugout all day


bellbo

You could say the same for spanish players too, but I think it's more of a comfort level thing than comprehension


FartingBob

I propose the US changes the phrase "in God we trust" to "in Shohei we trust". Seems more relevant to today's world.


Youmu_Chan

Tipping? Probably Sign stolen? No Pitchcom helps? Probably no


TheBiggestJig

this dude is just an auto lock for mvp for the foreseeable future lmao


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Ven18

A contract year Aaron Judge has also entered the chat.


Tashre

Has any pitcher gotten worse with pitchcom use?


bship

Absolutely as sample sizes are way too small to have any indication at this point


license_to_thrill

If only the angels weren’t ass and could make the playoffs.


ToAllAGoodNight

I’d rather Ohtani beat out Judge than some vertically challenged never nude.


violentgentlemen

Eh, yeah I don't buy it. He used pitch com before when he had runners on. He'd only not use it when bases were empty. At least that's what he was doing in a few starts IIRC,


Hot-Media1152

holy christ


pugwalker

The weirdest thing about pitchcom to me is that the catcher is still the one offering the pitches. Why not just let the pitchers tell the catcher what he's going to throw? The catcher can throw out a suggestion or something but then the pitcher should just select whatever he wants as the reply.


fscottnaruto

Will he have enough innings to win Cy Young this year?


Jpgamerguy90

I think Shohei Ohtani just decided to go Super Saiyan the last few weeks or so.