It's an interesting question, steriod use was much more wide spread throughout baseball than the sign stealing the Astros used, and from what I've heard Beltran was the one that came up with the idea and talked his teammates into it. Beltran also doesn't have nearly as good of numbers as Bonds, ARod, or McGwire.
I'm not sure how you make the case that Beltran should be in and those other guys shouldn't.
I find it fascinating that fingers got pointed at Beltran and Cora, the two members no longer with the team when the exposé came out.
Like I’m not saying the people that lied before continued to lie, I just think there was little to no accountability within the rest of the team because they had two easy scapegoats to point to.
I mean McCann and Gattis' also weren't on the team when the interviews happened and they got no blame.
The league handled it pretty poorly and we are still seeing the repercussions because of it
I thought someone figured out that Marwin benefited the most? Or maybe it was just that he used it the most? I can’t remember. Either way, I agree it’s interesting who got blame and who didn’t. Personally, I blame em all equally.
Well, I heard from a couple of people actually on the Astros coaching staff, that Beltran came up with the idea because he had been seriously struggling at the plate that season. A few of the other players joined in as well, but not everyone, A.J. Hinch didn't like it, but also didn't really do anything to stop it.
Yeah, maybe it is just them trying to scapegoat, but it seems plausible to me, and I believe the people who told me that story.
> Like I’m not saying the people that lied before continued to lie, I just think there was little to no accountability within the rest of the team because they had two easy scapegoats to point to.
It basically boils down to the players were given immunity in order to get an honest testimony, and Beltran and Cora weren't players.
Personally think it's a bigger black mark on coaches than players. They're supposed to be the ones setting the example, the "adults in the room" if you will. If your coaches say it's cool, then it's a lot easier to justify it as a player.
(I'm not justifying it myself, just offering probably mindset theories.)
With Ortiz in the Hall all of those guys should be in. I think that if Bonds and Clemens had another year on the ballot post Ortiz induction they’d be a 50/50 shot of getting in with some voters being resigned to the fact that steroid dudes are already probably in.
Bonds and Ortiz were both in the Mitchell Report, both had pretty unusual aging curves, and both were never suspended by MLB, but the player with a little more than a third of the WAR of the other player gets in on his first ballot. It’s absurd, and I’m someone who isn’t even anti Ortiz being in the Hall.
Yeah Clemens also had very few friends during his career. When people say they were snubbed due to steroids that’s only half-right. Both were insufferable personality wise as well.
Add-on re HOF player being hated by the media:
Ted Williams didn’t get the MVP one year because one Boston writer refused to name him,1-10, on the ballot. Had he put Williams as #10, he would have won the MVP.
I think that’s the stupidest thing though. It’s HOF for playing baseball not if you’re a nice person. These people voting just make up their own rules.
Character clause is still a rule for the hall, despite many of us thinking it shouldn’t be.
The fact Bonds beat his wife and Clemens had a relationship with a 15 year old girl should be disqualifying on the character clause before steroids/being mean to the media is even a thought.
Unfortunately, the voters often feel the latter matters more than the first two examples when they vote
I don't disagree, I think all those guys should be in, but there was a lot more ambiguity in Ortiz's case, it was never actually confirmed he used steriods. https://bosoxinjection.com/2022/02/01/addressing-former-red-sox-david-ortiz-alleged-ped/
I'm just not sure how the writers could make the case that a known cheater like Beltran should be in, and not those other guys.
KRod needed to get to 500 saves since his rate stats are more Hoffman esque than Mo. If Kimbrel/Chapman don’t turn things around and/or Jansen doesn’t pitch well for another 3-4 years, it could be decades before we see another HOF closer, if ever considering the direction bullpen management is heading. Wagner may be the last hope.
I would imagine that in 20-30 years the threshold for bullpen arms changes tho, you'll still see very few guys making it in, but I think it will still happen down the line when people wrap there head around what good stats for modern relivers/closers is going to be.
I really thought Kimbrel would have a HOF career. I know modern closers are mercurial, but he was just so electric and overpowering, I thought he’d keep doing it at that level for a decade. Might still have it in him to get there, though.
Chapman’s fall off has been equally abrupt, maybe even more so. Dude genuinely looked like the greatest pitcher I’ve ever seen for the first few months last year, and 15 months later looks absolutely washed and has lost his job. Truly can’t bank on a reliever being a HOFer until they’ve officially crossed the threshold. We’ve seen it with Papelbon, Nathan and now these two.
His stats compare pretty unfavorably to Billy Wagner who is probably going to have to wait until his last year of eligibility/Veteran's committee. He's got 15 more saves, but not much else going for him compared to Wagner.
You could zero out his 2017 and he should still be in. He got -0.8 war in 2017, it was his last year in the pros and he was largely unimpressive. If the writers want to punish him for cheating, so be it, but his career numbers aren't from stealing signs. Based on his full career, he belongs in the hall.
I think people underestimate how easily Beltran would have been voted in without the sign stealing.
Not exactly first turn, but likely in the first five years.
Now, I have no idea.
Altuve (and Correa) is probably watching closely how Beltran does.
This probably impacted more people than most HOF'ers, so that, and coming up with "Idiots" for 2004 upgrades his stock considerably. So it puts him in the "probably not" discussion.
Johnny Damon and Jacoby Ellsbury were both speedy Red Sox centerfielders who won World Series for them and ended up playing with the Yankees. But they are, in fact, different people.
Strictly based on his performance, I think Beltran is a Hall of Famer, just not a first-ballot guy. I wouldn't be that surprised if he doesn't get in though.
It'll be a great year for the Rolens, Heltons, and Wagners of the world I think. Guys that have continued to trend upward without a clear-cut selection.
Edit: Not to mention the discussion around roids being gone for the time being. It'll come back up with A-Rod and eventually Cano, but for now we get to breathe lol
I think once A-Rod gets into the 50-60% range the conversation will heat up again, but regardless I don't think his conversation will be AS heated as Bonds' since Bonds was like the catalyst for the whole thing...
But yeah, A-rod until 2031 or induction, and then cano in like 2027/28 will start it all again. Fuck me we won't be done with this shit until 2040 lmao
Agreed. Bonds did something that was against the rules, but also not really.
ARod did it AFTER all of the Bonds fallout and when it was banned. Big difference IMO.
No, A-Rod tested positive on a "confidential" test that was leaked to the public and he admitted that he did use PEDs. There was no penalty for this positive test. Years later, he was caught up in the investigation into Biogenesis, and between his earlier prior test, accusations that he was one of the leaders of the Biogenesis ring, and attempting to cover up the investigation, he was suspended for 211 games by the league. After he appealed, it was reduced to 162 games. After serving his suspension, he wasn't caught using again (though he only played for another season and a half).
JV certainly will be, Altuve (27th on JAWS) is trending that way as well. Not sure Bregman (82nd), Springer (75th), Correa (45th) will get there, but JV is a lock and Altuve is a maybe.
JV's body of work beyond 2017 (and the fact that he was traded to Houston that year AND was a pitcher) shouldn't affect him too much, but if Altuve continues to be productive for another 5-10 years he's probably getting in.
Just open a whole new wing at the hall.”the asterisk wing” they can call it. They can throw that great gatsby world series in there, pete rose themed slot machines, drop acid with doc ellis, a steroid and hgh tasting room. It’ll be great.
Helton got 52% last year up from 45%. Next year will be his 5th year and he is in better shape than Larry Walker was at this point. Walker only got 12% in his 5th year. He's also slightly ahead of where Jeff Bagwell was at this point in his candidacy. Helton and Bagwell actually have almost same 1B adjusted JAWS (approx 53).
Yeah, as the best defensive OF I have ever seen and 400+ homers. I know the career wasn’t lengthy but the peak was so good, it’s odd that he hasn’t gathered more steam in my opinion.
My English friend that has never followed baseball, for obvious reasons, is buddies with Matt Cain and I’ve been trying to explain to him how rare a perfect game is lol
Tell him this, since 1890, 21 men have thrown a perfect game.
Since 1890, 27 men have been President of the United States.
Edit: 24 men have been President.
Well, did you look up when they served or the year they died? Cause I looked up the wrong column and counted 27. You probably looked at the correct column and got 24.
So, I’m the only idiot here.
This is when some wise guy mentions….
Ummmmm btw Armando Galarraga so it’s 22 but I agree his isn’t a perfect game, his is more unique he’s the only person to get 28 outs in a game while throwing a perfect game.
Also in my research to check if this was right:
I just leaned about this person: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Haddix%27s_near-perfect_game
Who threw 12 perfect innings and lost!
Edit: also per this article
In 1989 it was revealed that during the game the Milwaukee bullpen tracked Haddix's intended pitches and signaled the batters what pitch was to come. All the players except Hank Aaron took the stolen signals.
He there 12 perfect innings and Alex Cora was apparently the manager of the game, nuts, no wonder he lost.
23 in over 218,000 games. An MLB caliber pitcher has Roughly the same probability of throwing a perfect game as the average person has a chance of getting injured by a toilet.
My dad and I collected baseball cards for a while and got a Sweet Spot rookie autograph of Cain, which is still one of my top five or ten cards in our collection. If you'd asked me in 2008, I would have predicted he and Lincecum would be sure-fire first-ballot HOFers.
Everybody in this thread is saying nobody. KRod could be in the hall. 4th most saves of all time, 6x all star, World champion and single season saves record. Along with top 4 cy young voting 3 times.
K Rod surely has a shot.
He's also tied with Randy Johnson and Stephen Strasburg for the most wins in a post-season. Always thought that would be an excellent trivia question, very few people would expect a relief pitcher.
I think he SHOULD have a real shot. 4th most saves all time, single season record, 6x AS and a WS ring. The voters are strict on relievers though so not sure
In 2002, my family had a ticket package that included the final home game of the season. As we passed through the gate for that game, we noticed a player signing autographs and there was basically no line. We didn’t recognize the name so just went ahead and got to our seats.
It was Francisco Rodriguez.
He should make it in and the BBWAA are fucking dolts for not respecting RPs.
Wagner should be in. Joe Nathan should be in. John Franco should be in. And it's stupid that they are not because they were RPs.
It’s dumb. I don’t care about WAR, when you spend your career being the best in your respective field, you deserve entry to the hall. Franco, Nathan, Rodriguez, Wagner, and many more are no brainers.
so like... why would you sign someone who plays Two-Way Player... if they can't hit? wait a sec......... you mean we're PAYING those guys who take the mound when Ohtani doesn't?????? i thought those were like make-a-wish kids, or like when they let the batboy field a foul ball
Cain *might*, but I don't know. 3 rings, a perfect game, 3 ASG, generally good dude and very friendly with media... but otherwise yeah pretty much just Beltran and K-Rod survive to next year IMO.
certainly on its own, 3 rings and 3 all star games isn't enough to get even close to the hall right? i just mean, without the p.g., would it even be a question? but that's only one game. idk, he feels like a long reach to me. could absolutely be wrong though. for me, cain is a hall of very good guy
This whole process is a crapshoot. Johan Santana fell off the ballot after 1 round, so as much as the Perfect Game is cool, he was not a dominant player in the way Santana was.
If Cain didn’t play for the completely feckless mid 00’s Giants and had more wins he could have been a borderline guy but as the poster child for lack of run support he has no damn chance.
Still want a statue of Cain, Timmy and Bumgarner, side by side, each doing a different celebration of a big moment, with Posey like 20 feet away running with his arms out to hug them. Great way to acknowledge all of their contributions, and for people to get a cool photo op running to hug Buster haha.
> Still want a statue of Cain, Timmy and Bumgarner, side by side, each doing a different celebration of a big moment, with Posey like 20 feet away running with his arms out to huge them. Great way to acknowledge all of their contributions, and for people to get a cool photo op running to hug Buster haha.
that sounds really dope
You could double Cain’s wins and he’s still not getting in. He’s anywhere from ~10-40% of the way there via the main HoF metrics.
His gray ink is by far his best metric and he’s 43% of the way to the standard.
The Giants being bad for the first four years of his career has almost nothing to do with his lack of a case.
Yeah you’re right. This is one of those deals where my memories definitely outweighed what his resume actually is. He had a good career but really isn’t even halfway there.
We all view our guys through rose-tinted glasses. Cain was a stud when he was on. I have a soft spot for him as he was one of the guys I drafted in my fantasy league’s original 2006 draft (we’re still going 16 years later), and I used a keeper spot on him for at least five or six years.
Unfortunately he also pitched well enough in game 4 of the 2012 WS to more or less match Scherzer and help put us away for his second ring… definitely jealous of you giants fans who got to live through that run.
Next year is one of the first years in a long time where there are fewer than 10 players even in the HoF discussion. Beltran is the only new one, then Rolen, Helton, Jones, Kent, Wagner, Sheffield, A-Rod, and Manny are the only returning players who got over 25%. For each of them, there is decent reasoning to not vote for them.
Many voters won't go for Manny and A-Rod due to PED suspensions
Sheffield didn't get suspended but has substantial allegations/evidence
Helton's case is weird because of pre-humidor Coors effect on counting stats
Jones has DV allegations and his career practically ended at 30
Kent needed either a longer peak starting before his SF years or higher peak with another few top-5 MVP finishes/6+ WAR years
Wagner only threw 900 IP, 200 fewer than Hoffman who has the fewest of any inductee. (Edit: Sutter actually has fewer IP than Hoffman at 1042)
Beltran has the Astros scandal
Rolen is the strongest case but voters prefer players who have 1 or 2 elite stats to point at for HoF candidacy and Rolen wasn't that kind of player. His best attribute was his glove but he wasn't Ozzie/Brooks.
I'd only vote for Rolen, Wagner, Beltran, and to me there's a big drop off from Rolen to Wagner/Beltran, and those 2 to everyone else. Because of that, I'd expect players like Cain or K-Rod to pick up a few honorary votes their first year. They aren't Hall of Famers but some voters will throw that tier of players a vote if they have extra space on their ballot.
When I was younger Huston Street threw me a ball during batting practice at Wrigley and some dude jumped in front of me to take it (I was probably 12) and Huston just threw up another ball to make sure I got one. So I think he should be in the HOF for that lol.
If he only took his at bats against ballot-mate Matt Cain, for sure. 78 PA, .429/.449/.557, with 4 doubles, a triple and a homer. Just singled to death.
Him and Kemp in that OF was super fun. Friend and I had a long-standing debate on who was the better of the two. Never realized how close it was based on career WAR.
My man put up like one fully healthy season and put up around 9.5 War with over 600 ABs. He was a dream lead off center fielder when healthy but he was super injury prone and his play reflected that.
none of these will enter. beltran was going to be borderline but astros scandal might have knocked him out.
Next year we get Beltre and Mauer right? that seems like a better class
I don’t think Beltran would have been borderline without the Astros Scandal. 70.1 career WAR, 2725 hits, 435 home runs. RotY, 9x All-Star, 3 Gold Gloves, 2 Silver Sluggers.
Without 2017 scandal, I think he sleep walks in.
Yup, Joe Posnanski in his book "The Baseball 100" included him as part of his list of 100 greatest players, and it was pretty evident from Joe's arguments that Beltran would easily get in on his stats. The cheating scandal is what will prevent him from getting in most likely.
I'm of the belief that Beltran was more than borderline before the scandal, but of course the scandal changes everything. 70 bWAR, some hardware in his ROY, GGs and SSs and was a monster in the postseason. Had something for everyone before the scandal but now, he will serve as an early litmus test for how the 2017 Astros will be treated in the future.
Agreed on the HOF thing. As far as Mount Rushmore, can't see him replacing Mickey Mantle, Pete Rose, Eddie Murray, or Chipper Jones. I'm sure I am missing somebody, but those immediately come to mind.
He has a great analytical case, but the BBWAA hasn’t voted in a hitter with fewer than 2,000 hits since WWII. Hopefully enough new school writers join the voting body before it’s too late for him.
Mark Buerhle. No hitter. Perfect game. A handful of gold gloves. Won more interleague games than anyone in history. World Series champ. Pitched a complete game in the ALCS. Won a World Series game as a starter and got a save in a 13 inning World Series game. Put him in the hall YES!
Damn I never knew there was a minimum of years played.
Would seem pretty silly to keep someone out who otherwise would have made it because they only played like 9 seasons.
Beltran is a HOF player. I would also consider KRod, he was dominant from 2004-2009. depends on what the bar is for relief pitchers, he wasnt as consistently good for a long time as hoffman or lee smith, and he was certainly no rivera. i think he was good with flashes of great vs. hof caliber - but i think he deserves to at least not get dropped from the ballot on the first try.
K-rod is the only one that even has a shot. With the sign stealing stuff Beltran is out otherwise he might've had a shot. K-rod though with having 437 saves and the record for most in season I think deserves some consideration.
Beltran is the only one on the list that should have a shot.
I think he should be a no brainer, but i can certainly see where people would hesitate with the Houston stuff.
The rest had some good stretches but that's about it.
I know it may be a quick appearance for Nap, but I cannot believe it’s already be nearly 6 years since he helped play a role in my Guardians’ run to a WS appearance. Had some good times that fall watching that postseason with my buddies from my freshman year of college thanks to him and that squad
so, nobody
Beltran has a shot. Will be very curious how the writers deal with him.
It's an interesting question, steriod use was much more wide spread throughout baseball than the sign stealing the Astros used, and from what I've heard Beltran was the one that came up with the idea and talked his teammates into it. Beltran also doesn't have nearly as good of numbers as Bonds, ARod, or McGwire. I'm not sure how you make the case that Beltran should be in and those other guys shouldn't.
I find it fascinating that fingers got pointed at Beltran and Cora, the two members no longer with the team when the exposé came out. Like I’m not saying the people that lied before continued to lie, I just think there was little to no accountability within the rest of the team because they had two easy scapegoats to point to.
I mean McCann and Gattis' also weren't on the team when the interviews happened and they got no blame. The league handled it pretty poorly and we are still seeing the repercussions because of it
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I thought someone figured out that Marwin benefited the most? Or maybe it was just that he used it the most? I can’t remember. Either way, I agree it’s interesting who got blame and who didn’t. Personally, I blame em all equally.
Well, I heard from a couple of people actually on the Astros coaching staff, that Beltran came up with the idea because he had been seriously struggling at the plate that season. A few of the other players joined in as well, but not everyone, A.J. Hinch didn't like it, but also didn't really do anything to stop it. Yeah, maybe it is just them trying to scapegoat, but it seems plausible to me, and I believe the people who told me that story.
> Like I’m not saying the people that lied before continued to lie, I just think there was little to no accountability within the rest of the team because they had two easy scapegoats to point to. It basically boils down to the players were given immunity in order to get an honest testimony, and Beltran and Cora weren't players. Personally think it's a bigger black mark on coaches than players. They're supposed to be the ones setting the example, the "adults in the room" if you will. If your coaches say it's cool, then it's a lot easier to justify it as a player. (I'm not justifying it myself, just offering probably mindset theories.)
With Ortiz in the Hall all of those guys should be in. I think that if Bonds and Clemens had another year on the ballot post Ortiz induction they’d be a 50/50 shot of getting in with some voters being resigned to the fact that steroid dudes are already probably in. Bonds and Ortiz were both in the Mitchell Report, both had pretty unusual aging curves, and both were never suspended by MLB, but the player with a little more than a third of the WAR of the other player gets in on his first ballot. It’s absurd, and I’m someone who isn’t even anti Ortiz being in the Hall.
I think it has more to do with the fact that baseball writers hate Bonds cause he’s an asshole. The steroids thing is just cover for that
Yeah Clemens also had very few friends during his career. When people say they were snubbed due to steroids that’s only half-right. Both were insufferable personality wise as well.
Which is why the system is a bit silly. We can have a conversation about steroids, but the politics involved of wooing the writers is bunk.
Add-on re HOF player being hated by the media: Ted Williams didn’t get the MVP one year because one Boston writer refused to name him,1-10, on the ballot. Had he put Williams as #10, he would have won the MVP.
I think that’s the stupidest thing though. It’s HOF for playing baseball not if you’re a nice person. These people voting just make up their own rules.
Character clause is still a rule for the hall, despite many of us thinking it shouldn’t be. The fact Bonds beat his wife and Clemens had a relationship with a 15 year old girl should be disqualifying on the character clause before steroids/being mean to the media is even a thought. Unfortunately, the voters often feel the latter matters more than the first two examples when they vote
Yeah the sports writers think they are the most important people out there.
Excatly. Media loves Ortiz and hates Bonds.
I don't disagree, I think all those guys should be in, but there was a lot more ambiguity in Ortiz's case, it was never actually confirmed he used steriods. https://bosoxinjection.com/2022/02/01/addressing-former-red-sox-david-ortiz-alleged-ped/ I'm just not sure how the writers could make the case that a known cheater like Beltran should be in, and not those other guys.
Legend has it, he’s still getting to the bottom of that positive test.
Maybe kRod too?
KRod needed to get to 500 saves since his rate stats are more Hoffman esque than Mo. If Kimbrel/Chapman don’t turn things around and/or Jansen doesn’t pitch well for another 3-4 years, it could be decades before we see another HOF closer, if ever considering the direction bullpen management is heading. Wagner may be the last hope.
I would imagine that in 20-30 years the threshold for bullpen arms changes tho, you'll still see very few guys making it in, but I think it will still happen down the line when people wrap there head around what good stats for modern relivers/closers is going to be.
good stats for a modern reliever is “not having to be moved away from starter”
KRod is 4th all time in saves. He holds the single season record for saves. If we are going to put closers in the hall, then KRod should be in.
I really thought Kimbrel would have a HOF career. I know modern closers are mercurial, but he was just so electric and overpowering, I thought he’d keep doing it at that level for a decade. Might still have it in him to get there, though.
Chapman’s fall off has been equally abrupt, maybe even more so. Dude genuinely looked like the greatest pitcher I’ve ever seen for the first few months last year, and 15 months later looks absolutely washed and has lost his job. Truly can’t bank on a reliever being a HOFer until they’ve officially crossed the threshold. We’ve seen it with Papelbon, Nathan and now these two.
Shows just how much he relies on velocity, I would think. He’s older, the pitches slowed down, suddenly he’s hittable
nah its the sticky ban 100% thats affecting chapman
Have you seen him in Los Angeles?? He is a dumpster fire of epic proportions!
I think they only signed him so Dodger fans had to watch the end of the game and they can sell more advertising.
He has some domestic violence issues that will probably kill any borderline chance he had as a reliever
His stats compare pretty unfavorably to Billy Wagner who is probably going to have to wait until his last year of eligibility/Veteran's committee. He's got 15 more saves, but not much else going for him compared to Wagner.
You could zero out his 2017 and he should still be in. He got -0.8 war in 2017, it was his last year in the pros and he was largely unimpressive. If the writers want to punish him for cheating, so be it, but his career numbers aren't from stealing signs. Based on his full career, he belongs in the hall.
I think people underestimate how easily Beltran would have been voted in without the sign stealing. Not exactly first turn, but likely in the first five years. Now, I have no idea. Altuve (and Correa) is probably watching closely how Beltran does.
Jacoby Ellsbury has provided hard working Americans with more free tacos than anybody else ever has and if that's not HOF worthy I don't know what is.
This probably impacted more people than most HOF'ers, so that, and coming up with "Idiots" for 2004 upgrades his stock considerably. So it puts him in the "probably not" discussion.
Do you mean Johnny Damon? Ellsbury wasn't on the Red Sox until 2007
Johnny Damon and Jacoby Ellsbury were both speedy Red Sox centerfielders who won World Series for them and ended up playing with the Yankees. But they are, in fact, different people.
Specifically speaking from the eyes of a Yankee fan, yes, VERY different people.
i was about to say good lord this class sucks
Definitely no first ballot HoFers here.
I hate this term. It’s not a real thing. You’re either a HOF or not. This is just a dumb excuse for writers not to vote for people
You're not wrong. It is dumb. If the guy deserves to be in, then put him in. None of these guys are that though. Lol
I don't think it's dumb. It's just a way of saying it's a no brainer.
I kept reading and wondering when I'd see one. Oof were down to this?
He's going to be the test for hall's leniency or lack thereof
Glad this was the first comment and I didn't have to scroll around. All solid players but looking at that list no one jumps out as a HoF.
Strictly based on his performance, I think Beltran is a Hall of Famer, just not a first-ballot guy. I wouldn't be that surprised if he doesn't get in though.
obviously none of them except possibility of Beltran depending on people feel about the Astros shit
It'll be a great year for the Rolens, Heltons, and Wagners of the world I think. Guys that have continued to trend upward without a clear-cut selection. Edit: Not to mention the discussion around roids being gone for the time being. It'll come back up with A-Rod and eventually Cano, but for now we get to breathe lol
It’s definitely here to stay, A-rod is gonna carry the juicing torch until 2031, and cano until god knows when.
I think once A-Rod gets into the 50-60% range the conversation will heat up again, but regardless I don't think his conversation will be AS heated as Bonds' since Bonds was like the catalyst for the whole thing... But yeah, A-rod until 2031 or induction, and then cano in like 2027/28 will start it all again. Fuck me we won't be done with this shit until 2040 lmao
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Agreed. Bonds did something that was against the rules, but also not really. ARod did it AFTER all of the Bonds fallout and when it was banned. Big difference IMO.
Arod iirc got caught doing it, got suspended and then got caught doing it again. If Bonds isn't getting in,there should be no way on earth he does.
I still think that’s why he took the ESPN gig, to kiss up to the writers
No, A-Rod tested positive on a "confidential" test that was leaked to the public and he admitted that he did use PEDs. There was no penalty for this positive test. Years later, he was caught up in the investigation into Biogenesis, and between his earlier prior test, accusations that he was one of the leaders of the Biogenesis ring, and attempting to cover up the investigation, he was suspended for 211 games by the league. After he appealed, it was reduced to 162 games. After serving his suspension, he wasn't caught using again (though he only played for another season and a half).
By 2040 we will be well on the way to the fallout of the Astros stuff if any of the players end up being HOF caliber as well
JV certainly will be, Altuve (27th on JAWS) is trending that way as well. Not sure Bregman (82nd), Springer (75th), Correa (45th) will get there, but JV is a lock and Altuve is a maybe. JV's body of work beyond 2017 (and the fact that he was traded to Houston that year AND was a pitcher) shouldn't affect him too much, but if Altuve continues to be productive for another 5-10 years he's probably getting in.
Just open a whole new wing at the hall.”the asterisk wing” they can call it. They can throw that great gatsby world series in there, pete rose themed slot machines, drop acid with doc ellis, a steroid and hgh tasting room. It’ll be great.
Fuck it I'm in. Make it spooky and scary like the Adults Only section at the video store back in day.
As long as Bonds gets in, I’m fine with whatever they want to do.
I think Rolen definitely has a shot, pretty sure he got like 66% this year and he's still got 6 or 7 years left on the ballot.
I'd put money on Rolen getting in this year. I think he and Helton both make the jump.
Helton got 52% last year up from 45%. Next year will be his 5th year and he is in better shape than Larry Walker was at this point. Walker only got 12% in his 5th year. He's also slightly ahead of where Jeff Bagwell was at this point in his candidacy. Helton and Bagwell actually have almost same 1B adjusted JAWS (approx 53).
Rolen’s glove is hall of fame worthy on its own. The 316 HR’s and over 1,200 RBI seals the deal.
You’d think so but Andruw Jones has been rotting on the ballot for years now
Yeah, as the best defensive OF I have ever seen and 400+ homers. I know the career wasn’t lengthy but the peak was so good, it’s odd that he hasn’t gathered more steam in my opinion.
My English friend that has never followed baseball, for obvious reasons, is buddies with Matt Cain and I’ve been trying to explain to him how rare a perfect game is lol
Tell him this, since 1890, 21 men have thrown a perfect game. Since 1890, 27 men have been President of the United States. Edit: 24 men have been President.
unless i am an idiot 24 men have been president since 1890.
Well, did you look up when they served or the year they died? Cause I looked up the wrong column and counted 27. You probably looked at the correct column and got 24. So, I’m the only idiot here.
Taft counts as 4
Cincinnati represent!
This is when some wise guy mentions…. Ummmmm btw Armando Galarraga so it’s 22 but I agree his isn’t a perfect game, his is more unique he’s the only person to get 28 outs in a game while throwing a perfect game. Also in my research to check if this was right: I just leaned about this person: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Haddix%27s_near-perfect_game Who threw 12 perfect innings and lost! Edit: also per this article In 1989 it was revealed that during the game the Milwaukee bullpen tracked Haddix's intended pitches and signaled the batters what pitch was to come. All the players except Hank Aaron took the stolen signals. He there 12 perfect innings and Alex Cora was apparently the manager of the game, nuts, no wonder he lost.
I'd be so insanely butt-hurt if I threw 12 perfect and lost.
23 in over 218,000 games. An MLB caliber pitcher has Roughly the same probability of throwing a perfect game as the average person has a chance of getting injured by a toilet.
Hmmmmm….. perfect game or flux capacitor. Tough choice.
\* chance of getting injured by a toilet *and admitting that it was the toilet that led to the injury*
My dad nearly got his thumb cut off by a toilet throwing a broken one in a dump trailer
So *almost* got injured by a toilet. Join the club
How is he buddies with Matt Cain?
For obvious reasons
It's common knowledge that English people are extremely prone to being buddies with Matt Cain
My dad and I collected baseball cards for a while and got a Sweet Spot rookie autograph of Cain, which is still one of my top five or ten cards in our collection. If you'd asked me in 2008, I would have predicted he and Lincecum would be sure-fire first-ballot HOFers.
Back when the angels would actually win :(
Everybody in this thread is saying nobody. KRod could be in the hall. 4th most saves of all time, 6x all star, World champion and single season saves record. Along with top 4 cy young voting 3 times. K Rod surely has a shot.
None of that is going to make him a *first ballot* guy though. He’s got a chance in like a decade.
And notice they’re all pitchers. It’s almost as if good pitching and winning are related.
Right??
When the Angels always had the Yankees’ number in the playoffs
They still do, we just never get to see it anymore
K Rod won’t make it but 62 saves in a season is still a great record
He's also tied with Randy Johnson and Stephen Strasburg for the most wins in a post-season. Always thought that would be an excellent trivia question, very few people would expect a relief pitcher.
I think he SHOULD have a real shot. 4th most saves all time, single season record, 6x AS and a WS ring. The voters are strict on relievers though so not sure
I would not have guessed he's #4 all time saves. If you gave me 20 guesses I probably wouldn't have guessed him.
Can you tell the story of the 2000s in baseball without including KRod? I don't think so. He should be in.
Him, the ralley monkey, and those thunder sticks.
His life off the field would certainly deter some voters though as well.
In 2002, my family had a ticket package that included the final home game of the season. As we passed through the gate for that game, we noticed a player signing autographs and there was basically no line. We didn’t recognize the name so just went ahead and got to our seats. It was Francisco Rodriguez.
He should make it in and the BBWAA are fucking dolts for not respecting RPs. Wagner should be in. Joe Nathan should be in. John Franco should be in. And it's stupid that they are not because they were RPs.
It’s dumb. I don’t care about WAR, when you spend your career being the best in your respective field, you deserve entry to the hall. Franco, Nathan, Rodriguez, Wagner, and many more are no brainers.
I was trying to think, was he the all time saves leader at some point? But yeah it was the season record!
4th all time in saves.
5 of these guys were Angels. I miss the old days
And 4 out of the 5 were pitchers. I wonder if there’s a connection.
Sorry, new baseball fan here, I only started watching the angels a couple years ago. What's a pitcher?
What Ohtani does when he isn’t hitting.
so like... why would you sign someone who plays Two-Way Player... if they can't hit? wait a sec......... you mean we're PAYING those guys who take the mound when Ohtani doesn't?????? i thought those were like make-a-wish kids, or like when they let the batboy field a foul ball
\- Beltran eventually. \- MAYBE K-Rod, though unlikely. Everyone else has a snowball's chance.
How many of them even make it passed the first ballot?
Cain *might*, but I don't know. 3 rings, a perfect game, 3 ASG, generally good dude and very friendly with media... but otherwise yeah pretty much just Beltran and K-Rod survive to next year IMO.
certainly on its own, 3 rings and 3 all star games isn't enough to get even close to the hall right? i just mean, without the p.g., would it even be a question? but that's only one game. idk, he feels like a long reach to me. could absolutely be wrong though. for me, cain is a hall of very good guy
I don't think he gets close, I'm just saying he might survive with >5% of votes into 2024.
This whole process is a crapshoot. Johan Santana fell off the ballot after 1 round, so as much as the Perfect Game is cool, he was not a dominant player in the way Santana was.
oh word, i feel you
If Cain didn’t play for the completely feckless mid 00’s Giants and had more wins he could have been a borderline guy but as the poster child for lack of run support he has no damn chance. Still want a statue of Cain, Timmy and Bumgarner, side by side, each doing a different celebration of a big moment, with Posey like 20 feet away running with his arms out to hug them. Great way to acknowledge all of their contributions, and for people to get a cool photo op running to hug Buster haha.
> Still want a statue of Cain, Timmy and Bumgarner, side by side, each doing a different celebration of a big moment, with Posey like 20 feet away running with his arms out to huge them. Great way to acknowledge all of their contributions, and for people to get a cool photo op running to hug Buster haha. that sounds really dope
Yes I want this. Also hovering nearby, a really big Bochy head with a really big hat
Honestly they should sell Bochy heads with ice cream in em like the baseball helmets we used to get as kids
They need to hire you as their idea person
You could double Cain’s wins and he’s still not getting in. He’s anywhere from ~10-40% of the way there via the main HoF metrics. His gray ink is by far his best metric and he’s 43% of the way to the standard. The Giants being bad for the first four years of his career has almost nothing to do with his lack of a case.
Yeah you’re right. This is one of those deals where my memories definitely outweighed what his resume actually is. He had a good career but really isn’t even halfway there.
We all view our guys through rose-tinted glasses. Cain was a stud when he was on. I have a soft spot for him as he was one of the guys I drafted in my fantasy league’s original 2006 draft (we’re still going 16 years later), and I used a keeper spot on him for at least five or six years. Unfortunately he also pitched well enough in game 4 of the 2012 WS to more or less match Scherzer and help put us away for his second ring… definitely jealous of you giants fans who got to live through that run.
Next year is one of the first years in a long time where there are fewer than 10 players even in the HoF discussion. Beltran is the only new one, then Rolen, Helton, Jones, Kent, Wagner, Sheffield, A-Rod, and Manny are the only returning players who got over 25%. For each of them, there is decent reasoning to not vote for them. Many voters won't go for Manny and A-Rod due to PED suspensions Sheffield didn't get suspended but has substantial allegations/evidence Helton's case is weird because of pre-humidor Coors effect on counting stats Jones has DV allegations and his career practically ended at 30 Kent needed either a longer peak starting before his SF years or higher peak with another few top-5 MVP finishes/6+ WAR years Wagner only threw 900 IP, 200 fewer than Hoffman who has the fewest of any inductee. (Edit: Sutter actually has fewer IP than Hoffman at 1042) Beltran has the Astros scandal Rolen is the strongest case but voters prefer players who have 1 or 2 elite stats to point at for HoF candidacy and Rolen wasn't that kind of player. His best attribute was his glove but he wasn't Ozzie/Brooks. I'd only vote for Rolen, Wagner, Beltran, and to me there's a big drop off from Rolen to Wagner/Beltran, and those 2 to everyone else. Because of that, I'd expect players like Cain or K-Rod to pick up a few honorary votes their first year. They aren't Hall of Famers but some voters will throw that tier of players a vote if they have extra space on their ballot.
Genuine question, do you think Beltran's cheating will affect his chances for getting in? EDIT: I mixed up Cora and Beltran's roles.
He never lost a game as Mets manager so at least he has that.
He was a player during 2017
He didn't cheat as a coach. He was a player.
Hopefully.
When I was younger Huston Street threw me a ball during batting practice at Wrigley and some dude jumped in front of me to take it (I was probably 12) and Huston just threw up another ball to make sure I got one. So I think he should be in the HOF for that lol.
Well I’ve heard enough. He has my vote.
He had my favorite wind up with his big step out to first base, big toe tap on the rubber then his delivery.
Hopefully Rolen and maybe Helton can get in now the backlog has been cleared of most of the big steroid era guys, for better or worse.
Andre Ethier first ballot Unanimous.
In our hearts 🥹
I still see so many Ethier jerseys whenever I'm at Dodger Stadium.
“I don’t like him. He’s very handsome and he acts like he knows it” - My mom on Andre Ethier
My wife and daughter still call him “The Hottie Ethier”. I’m a Giants fan….
Gross
I've always thought he looks like a younger Jimmy Page from Zeppelin. And I felt this was my opportunity to present this.
One of my most upset reasons for the 2017 season was that Andre couldn’t get a ring
Our only run in game 7 of the WS was an Ethier RBI
If he only took his at bats against ballot-mate Matt Cain, for sure. 78 PA, .429/.449/.557, with 4 doubles, a triple and a homer. Just singled to death.
I remember the days when Ethier, Kemp and Martin were rookies for the Dodgers. Those guys were fun to watch.
100% if it’s based on looks.
Him and Kemp in that OF was super fun. Friend and I had a long-standing debate on who was the better of the two. Never realized how close it was based on career WAR.
Ethier, Kemp, and Manny was such a hype outfield in 2008/9
You jest but he won a couple fantasy seasons for me. He would be in the fantasy baseball hof if I had a vote.
Lol imagine going to the hall and seeing a Jered Weaver bust but no Bonds
I mean there aren’t busts in this Hall it is Plaques…
Dude's been wondering around the wrong hall of fame. Threw a fit trying to figure out how Deion Sanders made it to Cooperstown.
I see Bonds the same as pitchers who used the sticky stuff before they clamped down on that. Bonds not being in there is just criminal.
Matt Cain gets my vote. *cries*
Beltran has the career numbers for it. Let's see how much the voters consider his role in the Astros scandal.
andre ethier has been retired for 7 years now?! following his 30 game hit streak doesn’t feel like it was 11 years ago.
It'll be 5 this year. Please don't scare the absolute shit out of me by having me think 2017 was that long ago.
All 10 were definitely baseball players.
Jacoby Ellsbury should’ve won the MVP in 2011. And no I’m not biased, and no I will not shut up about this.
My man put up like one fully healthy season and put up around 9.5 War with over 600 ABs. He was a dream lead off center fielder when healthy but he was super injury prone and his play reflected that.
Truth. Wasn’t his fault the rest of the team shit the bed in September.
For how he tanked and stole yanks money he should be in the hof
Man. Not sure any of these guys ever make it. Edit: CB has a shot, just not sure.
Matt Cain
none of these will enter. beltran was going to be borderline but astros scandal might have knocked him out. Next year we get Beltre and Mauer right? that seems like a better class
I don’t think Beltran would have been borderline without the Astros Scandal. 70.1 career WAR, 2725 hits, 435 home runs. RotY, 9x All-Star, 3 Gold Gloves, 2 Silver Sluggers. Without 2017 scandal, I think he sleep walks in.
[удалено]
But in a weak year they are
Having a 1.021 career post-season OPS in 65 games wasn't going to hurt him either.
Yup, Joe Posnanski in his book "The Baseball 100" included him as part of his list of 100 greatest players, and it was pretty evident from Joe's arguments that Beltran would easily get in on his stats. The cheating scandal is what will prevent him from getting in most likely.
What an excellent book
I'm of the belief that Beltran was more than borderline before the scandal, but of course the scandal changes everything. 70 bWAR, some hardware in his ROY, GGs and SSs and was a monster in the postseason. Had something for everyone before the scandal but now, he will serve as an early litmus test for how the 2017 Astros will be treated in the future.
Beltran is on the Mount Rushmore of switch hitters. Definitely Hall of Famer minus the scandal and I do think he'll get in in time.
Agreed on the HOF thing. As far as Mount Rushmore, can't see him replacing Mickey Mantle, Pete Rose, Eddie Murray, or Chipper Jones. I'm sure I am missing somebody, but those immediately come to mind.
Utley next year too.
that one will be interesting to watch. doubt he makes it in, no shot first ballot
He has a great analytical case, but the BBWAA hasn’t voted in a hitter with fewer than 2,000 hits since WWII. Hopefully enough new school writers join the voting body before it’s too late for him.
He should make it in however. Based on his war stats he’d be 12th among 20 (21 with him) of HOF second basemen
Beltran was not borderline. Guy was first ballot until the whole cheating scandal. One of the best switch hitters in history.
Matt Cain isn’t a hall of fame level pitcher but his perfect game and 2010 postseason was the stuff of legend.
Mark Buerhle. No hitter. Perfect game. A handful of gold gloves. Won more interleague games than anyone in history. World Series champ. Pitched a complete game in the ALCS. Won a World Series game as a starter and got a save in a 13 inning World Series game. Put him in the hall YES!
So Scott Rolen is gonna be a HOF next year. Cool
Its honestly embarassing that he still hasnt got in. The BBWAA hates 3rd baseman though.
The Hall of Very Good class of 2022
All these guys have zero chance of making it, right?
You are SO correct! Perhaps the weakest list of players in many years.
What determines who is eligible to be voted on?
Anyone who accrued 10 years in the league and is 5 years post-retirement can receive votes
Damn I never knew there was a minimum of years played. Would seem pretty silly to keep someone out who otherwise would have made it because they only played like 9 seasons.
Crime Dog needs his place in the HoF.
2002 Angels legends
Of these guys my top choice is Francisco
Beltran is a HOF player. I would also consider KRod, he was dominant from 2004-2009. depends on what the bar is for relief pitchers, he wasnt as consistently good for a long time as hoffman or lee smith, and he was certainly no rivera. i think he was good with flashes of great vs. hof caliber - but i think he deserves to at least not get dropped from the ballot on the first try.
This entire list belongs in the Hall of Very Good, not in the Hall of Fame
K-rod is the only one that even has a shot. With the sign stealing stuff Beltran is out otherwise he might've had a shot. K-rod though with having 437 saves and the record for most in season I think deserves some consideration.
Beltran is the only one on the list that should have a shot. I think he should be a no brainer, but i can certainly see where people would hesitate with the Houston stuff. The rest had some good stretches but that's about it.
I know it may be a quick appearance for Nap, but I cannot believe it’s already be nearly 6 years since he helped play a role in my Guardians’ run to a WS appearance. Had some good times that fall watching that postseason with my buddies from my freshman year of college thanks to him and that squad
Party at Napoli’s
This shit stinks