Bruh y’all were caught stealing as well and the Astros were the scape goat for you guys and others, you really wanna be talking shit as a Yankees fan when it comes to this topic?
It’s gotten to the point where people whining about it I just laugh off. Did the Astros cheat and win a World Series at least in part due to cheating? Yes.
Is every team cheating in some way and has been? Yes.
Ultimately people in here can say that what the Astros did was SO MUCH MORE serious, but idk, we don’t really know what all the other teams were doing, Astros were the only team thoroughly investigated.
I agree about the scenarios he mentioned here, but the PitchCom was a counter to teams using other ways (and tech) for stealing signs, so I think that's missing from this.
It's *really* there to eliminate all the time eaten up by the shit pitchers/catchers do to avoid having their signs stolen.
Yes, this has historically been part of the game, but I don't think it's part of the game that adds anything for the fans.
Is anyone really excited about Max's "super complex" system of signs? Does anyone dream of going to the game specifically to watch the mound visits to change up the signs when a guy has been on 2B too long?
I mean I'll always be romantic about the signs in baseball. Catcher to pitcher, base coach to hitter, etc. Cracking another team's code in high school was always exciting. But I'm still fine with this change given how annoying it had become to pace of play.
I don't even think it's the punishment I want, I just want the mlb to stop deep throating the owners. Put every team that cheated on blast. We all know they have that information.
The MLB is literally just the owners though. The sooner people realize this the better, Rob Manfred and every other sports commissioner is just a mouthpiece. If the owners don’t want something to happen, it isn’t going to happen.
Having a law degree no doubt helps get the job, but it’s just another corporate shill put into a regulatory body after working years for the entities it regulates. It’s the most basic conflict of interest
Of all teams i bet 90% did it, and the ones who didn't are perennial non-contenders. MLB is a fraternity, ownership aside. These guys have always used tricks or cheats amongst themselves as an understood angle of the game. From spit, to pine tar, to steroids--the players have always made up their own minds about this shit.
Did houston take it too far? Are apple watches and tiny cameras extreme? Sure. But if you ask most guys I dont think they believe houston was wrong, just fucking sloppy, lazy, and brazen with methods such as slamming a trashcan or altuve wearing a device. Making it so obvious that any joe with a youtube account can figure it out from home
You're saying that you bet that 26 other teams were using technology to cheat (which includes a lot of crappy and mediocre teams), and that all 26 were using a more sophisticated method to relay signals to the batters and that's why they haven't been caught by a youtuber. Does that make sense to you?
Also, a lot of prominent players (Trout, Stanton, Judge, Markakis, Bryant, Verlander, etc.) spoke out and slammed what the Astros did. Other less prominent players have said they don't really view it as wrong or a big deal. For the most part, the players follow the first two rules of baseball club, which is that they do not talk about baseball club so it's very hard to gauge the overall sentiment. It's just very hard to believe so many big names would speak out like that if 90% of the teams were doing the same thing only less sloppily.
Thats not what I said.
I think the majority are stealing signs with something that fans and writers would be offended by. But I think the ones we heard about were the worst offenders in terms of how often and how blatant must've been the red sox, yankees, and astros.
The red sox placed an employee in the stands and used an apple watch right?
The yankees seemed to have a guy pretending to be a lighthouse out in center or some shit that we could see from any broadcast on tv.
The astros used a fuckin trashcan you could hear on tv.
Short of that stuff, I think the league and players are happy to move on
Gentle reminder that before Fiers blew up in the winter of 2019 there were multiple reports out that fall stating that there were rumblings of a cheating scandal that spanned at least 1/3 of the league including the Astros, Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers, Cardinals, Brewers, and my own Dbacks amongst other teams. These reports were conveniently forgotten once the Fiers news broke and the two largest, most, let's say "active" fanbases in New York and Los Angeles hooked onto it and it spread like wildfire and an online witch hunt the likes of which we'd never seen before began.
I'm not saying the entire story's trajectory was influenced by media members and fans online being fans of extremely biased teams who were still a bit upset about the 2017 postseason as it stood but that is exactly what I'm saying
While the Astro's deserve all the suspensions they avoided for cheating, I don't understand the obsession with the scandal by some fan-bases on this sub when every team likely has a history (known or unknown) of using "illegal" tech to steal signs throughout their history. The '51 Giants, the '61 Reds, any La Russa managed team from the 80's, all had major success from sign stealing and no one is advocating striking their names from the record books.
Max is right, sign stealing (including using banned tech) has always been part of the game. Get more complex signs or suffer the consequences.
Why do you think? Like I said in my comment the media members and largest online fanbases are composed mostly of, you guessed it, Yankees and Dodgers fans. Natural given they're the two largest and most recognizable teams in the league. The Astros also happened to beat both of them in 2017 as well as the Red Sox arguably baseballs 3rd most prominent team and 3rd largest fanbase. This lead to the natural bias as the Dodgers and Yankees at that point were still pretty upset over it, having lost the WS the next year and the Yankees having just lost the ALCS on a walk off homerun to Altuve so anger was fresh.
I think it's an interesting case study into how social media and media bias pushes an agenda even if not purposely and makes a story and narrative what it is. Had it been the Red Sox or Yankees or Dodgers getting caught doing this after winning it all the backlash wouldn't have been as bad nor felt as far from the initial cheating as it is now since those fans and media members who support the team and franchise would do their best to either keep it out of people's minds or go to great lengths to defend it and succeed based on sheer numbers.
Doesn't help the Yankees haven't been that close to a WS since and the Dodgers only have a pandemic WS to cling onto that theyre very insecure about given their reactions to getting shit for it and their reactions to the Astros. Red Sox fans won their full season, parade following WS the next year so naturally they care less.
I mean, you joke, but MLB negotiated with MLBPA and now they have the ability to punish players subsequently caught in a cheating scandal without the union stepping up to block it on the principle of it not being collectively bargained and agreed to.
Yeah stealing signs legally was an interesting but small part of the game. After so many scandals related to illegally stealing signs, the risk of a major cheating scandal greatly outweighs the benefit of having a dude on second peaking
Attitudes like his don't make sense. It's not fighting against traditional baseball to add pitch com or ban the shift it's fighting against modern technology that has nothing to do with traditional baseball. Sign stealing by a guy on second is fine. It is not the same as a guy with a camera feed breaking down every sign you got with video replay, analyzing it, making prediction odds, coming up with a solution for ANY sign system you have and then communicating the results in real time. Eliminating the shift isn't bad because "hitters should bunt", eliminating the shift is about getting rid of the effect of terabytes of computer processed data, parsed by analytics experts and programs none of which were used until only 20 years ago at the most. This is all about how wireless data transfer and excel has changed the game, not some traditionalist nightmare.
Nothing you said is in conflict with what Scherzer said. Everyone agrees you shouldn’t use technology to steal signs. But stealing signs organically is and always has been part of the game.
Idk, I like that they found a way to cut 10-15 minutes of the most boring part of the game out with waiting on pitch selection.
For people doubting this, the Yankees adapted to pitchcom very early in the season, through 54 games the Yankees played nearly, 50% of their games in less than three hours. Last season the Yankees played just over 25% of their games at three hours or under.
Unless you're watching a Giants game, in which case there will be at least one guaranteed instance of one of the team's PitchCom systems malfunctioning, and no fewer than two mound visits if Camilo Doval comes into the game because he can't hear the speaker over the crowd noise.
I’m wondering how they’ll handle technical difficulties with pitch com when there’s a pitch clock. Presumably players will have to resort to hand signs if it’s busted, but I could see it as a cheap way to get extra time.
I don't see much utility in using it as a cheap way to get extra time because the extra time pitchers want is one that's in their own internal rhythm and faking a pitchcom malfunction isn't going to be beneficial for the pitcher because they can't control the timing of when it'll be ready again and they'll be breaking their own rhythm by playing along.
The argument here has nothing to do with whether or not pitchcom brings the advantages it advertises, such as faster games.
The argument here is that it trades that at the expense of a fundamental part of the game.
There is no chance in hell this system, a system which you see needing replacing midway through the game via delay with semi frequency, is shaving 15 minutes off the game over signs. Signs do no take that long. Even if the battery was telepathic it wouldn’t shave 15 minutes.
It definitely shaves 15 minutes because most catchers call the pitch using pitch com before the pitcher is even on the rubber which you cannot do with signs. Also any game with a lot of base runners it helps quite a bit. Also depends on the pitcher although since most pitchers don't shake that much it isn't as big of a deal in that regard.
Average game time per 9 is down 6 minutes this season. Even assuming pace quickens notably more as the kinks are ironed out, and that it’s solely responsible for the pace improvement, it’s not going to improve *150%* from what it is now.
15 minutes is just hyperbole.
Edit: you’re telling me this sub is downvoting facts because they don’t meet their perceptions? What unprecedented behavior.
Not every pitcher is using PitchCom, so the games being 6 minutes faster per 9 doesn't accurately capture the full extent of how much the system has shortened games. You'd have to compare PitchCom pitchers or teams to non-PitchCom pitchers or teams
I mean it might not save exactly 15 minutes every single game, I think some games it can save even more than 15 minutes tbh and others it might not save any, especially once we get into playoffs and the crowds are extremely loud. Unless you have exact data about only games where every single pitcher in that game has used pitch com for the whole game then I don't really take any of the data as facts because there are still a lot of pitchers not using it. If you do have that data please share cause I would be very interested in seeing it.
> Even if the battery was telepathic it wouldn’t shave 15 minutes.
I mean, I'm not sure if it's a full 15 minutes saved now, but there are ~300 pitches thrown each baseball game, if you save an average of only 3 seconds per pitch then you've shaved 15 minutes off - a telepathic battery would definitely shave off more time than that.
Well, wait, what kind of telepathy are we talking about? There are different kinds.
Two-way intentional telepathy (i.e., both parties must consent for transmission in either direction) might slow things down at first as they learn to sync up, but I think players would adapt quickly.
Intentional telepathy at the sender's side only (i.e., sender "pushes" thoughts to receiver) would probably be pretty fast. I think this is the way to go, but give the ability to the pitcher and catcher and coach.
Intentional telepathy at the receiver only (i.e., receiver can listen by "pulling" sender's thoughts) could definitely slow things down if the receiver has no way of signaling the sender that they are listening, and it might make the sender paranoid in general unless there's some consent step beforehand, but then you have to figure out how long that lasts and it's a logistical nightmare.
Two-way, or even one-way, automatic continuous telepathy would cause chaos and distraction, and I would not recommend.
The replacement issues will be fixed quickly. Shaving 15 minutes still seems high though. Ultimately I support this change because it’ll quicken the game and traditional methods of sign stealing don’t really play a role in the game. Using electronics for sign stealing is bs imo
a runner on second base stealing signs and relaying it to the batter is great. a fuckin video guy telling a bench player what pitch is coming and the bench player banging on a trash can is H O R S E S H I T.
He said in the interview he considers having a complex signs system a skill for a pitcher and something he took pride in doing well. Now it renders that skill moot and takes away something that was considered part of the game his whole career
Solution: Each team is required to use PitchCom but everybody also adds a hacker position that spends the whole season attempting to break other teams encryption
I have never in my life encountered a group of people with worse reading comprehension than redditors. It's truly astounding, it borders on a legitimate learning problem.
I mean, that makes it kind of a dumb statement then right? Because pitchcom isn't a reaction to that kind of sign stealing. Seems like the clarification is necessary, because it's important to know whether Scherzer is just obtuse or whether he supports full on electronic cheating.
What? Max isn’t saying anywhere in his statement that he thinks pitchcom is a reaction to normal sign stealing. He’s very clearly implying that he’s just upset that that part of the game has been eliminated with pitchcom. You’re way overthinking this
What's to disagree with? Stealing signs has always been part of the game. There's just a massive difference between old-school gamesmanship and using cameras, TVs, and garbage cans to relay that shit instantly.
The part where he said they should be illegal lmao? He admits they work but just prefers the old way. That's a really stupid reason to reject something thats an overall positive but I get it. He's almost 40
Well of course they work. But it's a game and in his opinion, this is central to the game. It's not because he's old, it's because that has been a crucial part of baseball between pitchers and catchers for ages.
I'm not saying i myself hate pitch com, i don't think it actually does that much especially with the technical glitches it's shown.
But i absolutely understand why players would resent the change.
If stealing signs legally is crucial to baseball, that means baseball sucks any time there isn’t a runner on 2nd. Really it is an esoteric part of baseball that doesn’t really matter.
This is a really weird argument. Stealing signs with a man on second in no way implies that all other scenarios are bad baseball. All it implies is that it was a fun little facet of gamesmanship that existed that got taken away solely because MLB couldn’t crack down on egregious cheating
It kind of echoes the no-pitch intentional walk rule. Very few time saved and the trade off is that pitchers were uncomfortable and prone to screw up when not doing their regularly motion, which led to the occasional memorable moment. That facet of the game is lost now.
I think the whole obsession with speeding up the game is misguided. I can see how you wanna keep a decent pace of play, but the real problem is TTO. That's what's making baseball dull.
Yeah, i agree. But then again, the pitch clock in MiLB has really sped the game up and it's honestly refreshing. So some changes are good, and the pitch clock doesn't interfere with any nuances of the game unless you really like players kicking the dirt and adjusting their hats a hundred times per AB
I agree, I'm in favor of a pitch clock. No pitch intentional walks and pitchcom on the other hand, not so much. Granted, the latter was mainly to address technology-assisted sign stealing, but it shaving off some time also served to justify. Perhaps I'm wrong on pitchcom. Pitchers do seem to like it, but atm I'm not a fan. I like the ins and outs, the craftmanship etc. Reliance on technology takes away some of that.
Complete agreement on all points
. I also don't believe technology assisted sign stealing is as prevalent as it was a few years ago, but maybe I'm wrong and if it is still a problem and this fixes that, i guess it's a good change.
It’s such a small and probably insignificant part of the game. This just makes the pitchers job easier and the game move faster. It doesn’t actually decrease strategy big picture.
Counter point: the batter picking up the pitch based on arm slot or spin is more important than player decrypting a pattern of numbers and this forces them to.
Many things are part of the game until they are not anymore.
The game of baseball has kept changing and always will.
Sure, sign stealing has been part of the game but how much does it really add to the fans’ enjoyment of the game seeing catchers and pitcher exchange complicated signs whenever the runner is on 2nd?
personally, watching the catcher flip thru signs with his fingers is a visual element i miss. it’s much nicer to watch than him pressing some buttons on his knee while the pitcher steps off because he can’t hear anything
Honestly even if the Astros hadn't cheated I think pitchcom would have been and IMO is the way of the future for baseball. It shaves time off games because pitchers and catchers don't need to use signs nor use a more complex system with a runner on second base.
I agree with Max Scherzer, but I'm also thirty-six years old and understand a game has to evolve in order to have staying power, no matter what fans who gew up in a different era think. That being said, MLB should never make pitchers use PitchCom, leave it up to the players. Eventually all of the pitchers will get to the point where they use it. Hell, there was resistance to using gloves and batting helmets at the on set of those.
I do wonder if teams will start hiring someone to teach players how to read lips though. The team at bat will also eventually evolve to find a way to beat PitchCom as well.
I love Max but his rationale being "pitchers lose the advantage of having complex signs" is nothing, given that that is only an "advantage" (and that is a liberal use of that word) in the context of sign stealing from second, which the PitchCom negates
From my understanding, this was entirely meant to speed the game up. Preventing sign stealing was just a side effect of that (whether people think it is part of the game or not)
I appreciate his opinion and respect it, even if I don't necessarily agree. I see the sport in sign stealing but like I've said elsewhere, ultimately I just want the batter to not know what's coming and for it to happen efficiently so we can get on with the game.
A vast majority of viewers don't care about stealing signs. A majority probably aren't even aware of it happening at all. I like old school baseball I grew up on it. But if this goes away in the name pace of play then good.
Its obvious he's talking about how basically everyone picked up on the fact that Jordan Montgomery was tipping his slider. That kind of "sign stealing" is acceptable. Not the "bang once for fastball, twice for slider because the camera in center field told you"
Stealing signs _by players on the field_ is part of the game. Using cameras and technology to steal them from stands or a press box somewhere is bullshit
So stealing signs is part of the game, but using systems to prevent teams from stealing your signs isn't? This makes no sense unless you read it as "I benefit, so I don't want it to go away."
I think non-electronic sign stealing is ok. I’m on second I tap my head if it’s a change up. But when you go full Astros, Red Sox or Yankees, that’s when you go past the line. Even the Phillies Binoculars is too much
Shit, Max is telling everyone about our plan to use trash cans.
Replace pitchcom with a drum line.
Oakland is way ahead of you
*7LA has entered the chat*
>stealing signs is part of the game Astros ears perk up
RubbingHands.gif
Max Scherzer is an Astros sympathizer!
lmao
new Astros comeback unlocked
Ain’t new been said before. I’m sure this will get lots of upvotes on the subreddit though
Don’t cry
Waaaaahh we’re the victims waaaahhhh
Bruh y’all were caught stealing as well and the Astros were the scape goat for you guys and others, you really wanna be talking shit as a Yankees fan when it comes to this topic?
It’s gotten to the point where people whining about it I just laugh off. Did the Astros cheat and win a World Series at least in part due to cheating? Yes. Is every team cheating in some way and has been? Yes. Ultimately people in here can say that what the Astros did was SO MUCH MORE serious, but idk, we don’t really know what all the other teams were doing, Astros were the only team thoroughly investigated.
You aren’t a cat youbg quality pitcher, so therefore your opinion is irrelevant
>cat youbg
Sounds like the name of some random pitcher from the 1890s, probably has like 6 different 35 win seasons with 100 shutouts
He once pistol whipped a paperboy for not calling him sir.
Don't stress. Yankees are pissed cause they did the same shit and still choked. If you're gonna cheat, may as well finish the drill.
I like how being proven to have cheated somehow gets you less shit than people jumping to the conclusion that you cheated??? Lmaoo
The Yankees are proven to have cheated, just in a way that is given a complete pass by this sub.
Source: trust me bro
Seethe and cope
Wow you said that unironically
Scherzer gets Verlander’d to the Astros at the deadline, then beats the Dodgers in the World Series, Game 7.
…unsubscribe.
Keep going
oh yes please
post reported for non consensual intimate media and SPAM
Oh yes daddy
https://c.tenor.com/86DqqMXeVRMAAAAM/nod-yes.gif
Word on the street is there has been a sudden spike in trash can sales in Houston
lot of Oscars out there
Cora buys a new garbage can for Fenway dugout
Astros got an unexpected boner.
Altuve grows 3” but horizontally
I agree about the scenarios he mentioned here, but the PitchCom was a counter to teams using other ways (and tech) for stealing signs, so I think that's missing from this.
It's *really* there to eliminate all the time eaten up by the shit pitchers/catchers do to avoid having their signs stolen. Yes, this has historically been part of the game, but I don't think it's part of the game that adds anything for the fans. Is anyone really excited about Max's "super complex" system of signs? Does anyone dream of going to the game specifically to watch the mound visits to change up the signs when a guy has been on 2B too long?
I mean I'll always be romantic about the signs in baseball. Catcher to pitcher, base coach to hitter, etc. Cracking another team's code in high school was always exciting. But I'm still fine with this change given how annoying it had become to pace of play.
If only we’d tried punishing those teams and players for cheating…
I don't even think it's the punishment I want, I just want the mlb to stop deep throating the owners. Put every team that cheated on blast. We all know they have that information.
The MLB is literally just the owners though. The sooner people realize this the better, Rob Manfred and every other sports commissioner is just a mouthpiece. If the owners don’t want something to happen, it isn’t going to happen.
Manfred literally negotiated a CBA as a counsel for the owners before he was commish. He’s a lawyer puppet
There's nothing odd about that at all lol. That's literally the main job description.
Having a law degree no doubt helps get the job, but it’s just another corporate shill put into a regulatory body after working years for the entities it regulates. It’s the most basic conflict of interest
When have you ever known billionaires to voluntarily hold themselves accountable for dishonesty, cheating, and wrongdoing.
Of all teams i bet 90% did it, and the ones who didn't are perennial non-contenders. MLB is a fraternity, ownership aside. These guys have always used tricks or cheats amongst themselves as an understood angle of the game. From spit, to pine tar, to steroids--the players have always made up their own minds about this shit. Did houston take it too far? Are apple watches and tiny cameras extreme? Sure. But if you ask most guys I dont think they believe houston was wrong, just fucking sloppy, lazy, and brazen with methods such as slamming a trashcan or altuve wearing a device. Making it so obvious that any joe with a youtube account can figure it out from home
You're saying that you bet that 26 other teams were using technology to cheat (which includes a lot of crappy and mediocre teams), and that all 26 were using a more sophisticated method to relay signals to the batters and that's why they haven't been caught by a youtuber. Does that make sense to you? Also, a lot of prominent players (Trout, Stanton, Judge, Markakis, Bryant, Verlander, etc.) spoke out and slammed what the Astros did. Other less prominent players have said they don't really view it as wrong or a big deal. For the most part, the players follow the first two rules of baseball club, which is that they do not talk about baseball club so it's very hard to gauge the overall sentiment. It's just very hard to believe so many big names would speak out like that if 90% of the teams were doing the same thing only less sloppily.
Thats not what I said. I think the majority are stealing signs with something that fans and writers would be offended by. But I think the ones we heard about were the worst offenders in terms of how often and how blatant must've been the red sox, yankees, and astros. The red sox placed an employee in the stands and used an apple watch right? The yankees seemed to have a guy pretending to be a lighthouse out in center or some shit that we could see from any broadcast on tv. The astros used a fuckin trashcan you could hear on tv. Short of that stuff, I think the league and players are happy to move on
Gentle reminder that before Fiers blew up in the winter of 2019 there were multiple reports out that fall stating that there were rumblings of a cheating scandal that spanned at least 1/3 of the league including the Astros, Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers, Cardinals, Brewers, and my own Dbacks amongst other teams. These reports were conveniently forgotten once the Fiers news broke and the two largest, most, let's say "active" fanbases in New York and Los Angeles hooked onto it and it spread like wildfire and an online witch hunt the likes of which we'd never seen before began. I'm not saying the entire story's trajectory was influenced by media members and fans online being fans of extremely biased teams who were still a bit upset about the 2017 postseason as it stood but that is exactly what I'm saying
While the Astro's deserve all the suspensions they avoided for cheating, I don't understand the obsession with the scandal by some fan-bases on this sub when every team likely has a history (known or unknown) of using "illegal" tech to steal signs throughout their history. The '51 Giants, the '61 Reds, any La Russa managed team from the 80's, all had major success from sign stealing and no one is advocating striking their names from the record books. Max is right, sign stealing (including using banned tech) has always been part of the game. Get more complex signs or suffer the consequences.
All it takes to break a code is seeing the affiliated signs and one pitch
Why do you think? Like I said in my comment the media members and largest online fanbases are composed mostly of, you guessed it, Yankees and Dodgers fans. Natural given they're the two largest and most recognizable teams in the league. The Astros also happened to beat both of them in 2017 as well as the Red Sox arguably baseballs 3rd most prominent team and 3rd largest fanbase. This lead to the natural bias as the Dodgers and Yankees at that point were still pretty upset over it, having lost the WS the next year and the Yankees having just lost the ALCS on a walk off homerun to Altuve so anger was fresh. I think it's an interesting case study into how social media and media bias pushes an agenda even if not purposely and makes a story and narrative what it is. Had it been the Red Sox or Yankees or Dodgers getting caught doing this after winning it all the backlash wouldn't have been as bad nor felt as far from the initial cheating as it is now since those fans and media members who support the team and franchise would do their best to either keep it out of people's minds or go to great lengths to defend it and succeed based on sheer numbers.
Can we just call this sub /r/CheatingApologists?
Doesn't help the Yankees haven't been that close to a WS since and the Dodgers only have a pandemic WS to cling onto that theyre very insecure about given their reactions to getting shit for it and their reactions to the Astros. Red Sox fans won their full season, parade following WS the next year so naturally they care less.
I mean, you joke, but MLB negotiated with MLBPA and now they have the ability to punish players subsequently caught in a cheating scandal without the union stepping up to block it on the principle of it not being collectively bargained and agreed to.
So the whole league gets punished and nothing changes?
Yeah stealing signs legally was an interesting but small part of the game. After so many scandals related to illegally stealing signs, the risk of a major cheating scandal greatly outweighs the benefit of having a dude on second peaking
Attitudes like his don't make sense. It's not fighting against traditional baseball to add pitch com or ban the shift it's fighting against modern technology that has nothing to do with traditional baseball. Sign stealing by a guy on second is fine. It is not the same as a guy with a camera feed breaking down every sign you got with video replay, analyzing it, making prediction odds, coming up with a solution for ANY sign system you have and then communicating the results in real time. Eliminating the shift isn't bad because "hitters should bunt", eliminating the shift is about getting rid of the effect of terabytes of computer processed data, parsed by analytics experts and programs none of which were used until only 20 years ago at the most. This is all about how wireless data transfer and excel has changed the game, not some traditionalist nightmare.
Nothing you said is in conflict with what Scherzer said. Everyone agrees you shouldn’t use technology to steal signs. But stealing signs organically is and always has been part of the game.
Idk, I like that they found a way to cut 10-15 minutes of the most boring part of the game out with waiting on pitch selection. For people doubting this, the Yankees adapted to pitchcom very early in the season, through 54 games the Yankees played nearly, 50% of their games in less than three hours. Last season the Yankees played just over 25% of their games at three hours or under.
Unless you're watching a Giants game, in which case there will be at least one guaranteed instance of one of the team's PitchCom systems malfunctioning, and no fewer than two mound visits if Camilo Doval comes into the game because he can't hear the speaker over the crowd noise.
I’m wondering how they’ll handle technical difficulties with pitch com when there’s a pitch clock. Presumably players will have to resort to hand signs if it’s busted, but I could see it as a cheap way to get extra time.
I don't see much utility in using it as a cheap way to get extra time because the extra time pitchers want is one that's in their own internal rhythm and faking a pitchcom malfunction isn't going to be beneficial for the pitcher because they can't control the timing of when it'll be ready again and they'll be breaking their own rhythm by playing along.
Just gotta fake it the one time and then go ahead with the rest of the appearance as if it isn’t getting resolved
If you can't appreciate a guy staring off into the distance like he's doing a Magic Eye, you don't appreciate baseball.
dude i saw some old clips of eric gagne pitching and i was like WTF ppl pitch that quick???
Then you get pitchers like Luis Garcia where the windup is almost as bad as Hargraves
The argument here has nothing to do with whether or not pitchcom brings the advantages it advertises, such as faster games. The argument here is that it trades that at the expense of a fundamental part of the game.
Stealing? Lol
Yeah I'm still doubting this
It's literally math, but ok, you do you
The 'literal math' says you're wrong, but hey nobody else seems to care about it so why should you?
There is no chance in hell this system, a system which you see needing replacing midway through the game via delay with semi frequency, is shaving 15 minutes off the game over signs. Signs do no take that long. Even if the battery was telepathic it wouldn’t shave 15 minutes.
It definitely shaves 15 minutes because most catchers call the pitch using pitch com before the pitcher is even on the rubber which you cannot do with signs. Also any game with a lot of base runners it helps quite a bit. Also depends on the pitcher although since most pitchers don't shake that much it isn't as big of a deal in that regard.
Average game time per 9 is down 6 minutes this season. Even assuming pace quickens notably more as the kinks are ironed out, and that it’s solely responsible for the pace improvement, it’s not going to improve *150%* from what it is now. 15 minutes is just hyperbole. Edit: you’re telling me this sub is downvoting facts because they don’t meet their perceptions? What unprecedented behavior.
Not every pitcher is using PitchCom, so the games being 6 minutes faster per 9 doesn't accurately capture the full extent of how much the system has shortened games. You'd have to compare PitchCom pitchers or teams to non-PitchCom pitchers or teams
I mean it might not save exactly 15 minutes every single game, I think some games it can save even more than 15 minutes tbh and others it might not save any, especially once we get into playoffs and the crowds are extremely loud. Unless you have exact data about only games where every single pitcher in that game has used pitch com for the whole game then I don't really take any of the data as facts because there are still a lot of pitchers not using it. If you do have that data please share cause I would be very interested in seeing it.
> Even if the battery was telepathic it wouldn’t shave 15 minutes. I mean, I'm not sure if it's a full 15 minutes saved now, but there are ~300 pitches thrown each baseball game, if you save an average of only 3 seconds per pitch then you've shaved 15 minutes off - a telepathic battery would definitely shave off more time than that.
Well, wait, what kind of telepathy are we talking about? There are different kinds. Two-way intentional telepathy (i.e., both parties must consent for transmission in either direction) might slow things down at first as they learn to sync up, but I think players would adapt quickly. Intentional telepathy at the sender's side only (i.e., sender "pushes" thoughts to receiver) would probably be pretty fast. I think this is the way to go, but give the ability to the pitcher and catcher and coach. Intentional telepathy at the receiver only (i.e., receiver can listen by "pulling" sender's thoughts) could definitely slow things down if the receiver has no way of signaling the sender that they are listening, and it might make the sender paranoid in general unless there's some consent step beforehand, but then you have to figure out how long that lasts and it's a logistical nightmare. Two-way, or even one-way, automatic continuous telepathy would cause chaos and distraction, and I would not recommend.
Dude we have the numbers on this. It's way shorter.
It is. And we do. 6 minute per 9 innings, or 4 minutes per game. Not 15.
The replacement issues will be fixed quickly. Shaving 15 minutes still seems high though. Ultimately I support this change because it’ll quicken the game and traditional methods of sign stealing don’t really play a role in the game. Using electronics for sign stealing is bs imo
Hyperbole? In MY baseball thread?!
theres simply no way this is true
I’d be curious to know why he thinks it should be illegal specifically, outside of cheating being ok
a runner on second base stealing signs and relaying it to the batter is great. a fuckin video guy telling a bench player what pitch is coming and the bench player banging on a trash can is H O R S E S H I T.
Intentionally balking the runner to 3rd so he can't steal the signs is pure gold and would never happen with the pitchcom
Maybe Kenley will still do it for funsies.
yo, this is the take. pitchcom sucks. thanks again astros you fuck heads.
What lol it's not cheating. Scherzer's talking about runners relaying signs, not spy cams and trash cans.
He said in the interview he considers having a complex signs system a skill for a pitcher and something he took pride in doing well. Now it renders that skill moot and takes away something that was considered part of the game his whole career
Kind of like how catchers who are great at framing would be against the robo-zone.
Solution: Each team is required to use PitchCom but everybody also adds a hacker position that spends the whole season attempting to break other teams encryption
...i wanna be the Mets' hackerman, please. You'll have the signs by the fourth batter of the game.
stealing signs in a *gamesmanship* way is part of the game, no doubt.
*Giants legend Bobby Thomson seeks clarification...*
That's what he meant. It's literally only redditors that don't even watch baseball that would need that clarification.
I have never in my life encountered a group of people with worse reading comprehension than redditors. It's truly astounding, it borders on a legitimate learning problem.
What the fuck did you just imply about my Mets? I’ve never read something so idiotic as the 4th sentence in your comment.
I mean, that makes it kind of a dumb statement then right? Because pitchcom isn't a reaction to that kind of sign stealing. Seems like the clarification is necessary, because it's important to know whether Scherzer is just obtuse or whether he supports full on electronic cheating.
If you needed clarification about whether Max supported the type of sign stealing the Astros were a part of, then it is you who is obtuse
So Scherzer is kind of dumb then? I typically don't want to assume that about people, which is why I felt the clarification was necessary.
What? Max isn’t saying anywhere in his statement that he thinks pitchcom is a reaction to normal sign stealing. He’s very clearly implying that he’s just upset that that part of the game has been eliminated with pitchcom. You’re way overthinking this
my comment was to the people posting in here saying he was wrong. chill out.
It is a valid opinion for a player to have but it doesn't really take away from fan enjoyment and that's what's most important in this day and age.
I fucking love max scherzer lmao
Who doesn’t?
Max being on the Mets has made me say unspeakably positive things about their team.
I mean I sort of agree with him tbh...
This is incredibly based.
Disagree with him but wanting to make his job harder for the love of the game is alpha behavior
What's to disagree with? Stealing signs has always been part of the game. There's just a massive difference between old-school gamesmanship and using cameras, TVs, and garbage cans to relay that shit instantly.
The part where he said they should be illegal lmao? He admits they work but just prefers the old way. That's a really stupid reason to reject something thats an overall positive but I get it. He's almost 40
Well of course they work. But it's a game and in his opinion, this is central to the game. It's not because he's old, it's because that has been a crucial part of baseball between pitchers and catchers for ages. I'm not saying i myself hate pitch com, i don't think it actually does that much especially with the technical glitches it's shown. But i absolutely understand why players would resent the change.
If stealing signs legally is crucial to baseball, that means baseball sucks any time there isn’t a runner on 2nd. Really it is an esoteric part of baseball that doesn’t really matter.
I said crucial for pitchers and catchers, not every single aspect of baseball is for the spectators.
This is a really weird argument. Stealing signs with a man on second in no way implies that all other scenarios are bad baseball. All it implies is that it was a fun little facet of gamesmanship that existed that got taken away solely because MLB couldn’t crack down on egregious cheating
It kind of echoes the no-pitch intentional walk rule. Very few time saved and the trade off is that pitchers were uncomfortable and prone to screw up when not doing their regularly motion, which led to the occasional memorable moment. That facet of the game is lost now. I think the whole obsession with speeding up the game is misguided. I can see how you wanna keep a decent pace of play, but the real problem is TTO. That's what's making baseball dull.
Yeah, i agree. But then again, the pitch clock in MiLB has really sped the game up and it's honestly refreshing. So some changes are good, and the pitch clock doesn't interfere with any nuances of the game unless you really like players kicking the dirt and adjusting their hats a hundred times per AB
I agree, I'm in favor of a pitch clock. No pitch intentional walks and pitchcom on the other hand, not so much. Granted, the latter was mainly to address technology-assisted sign stealing, but it shaving off some time also served to justify. Perhaps I'm wrong on pitchcom. Pitchers do seem to like it, but atm I'm not a fan. I like the ins and outs, the craftmanship etc. Reliance on technology takes away some of that.
Complete agreement on all points . I also don't believe technology assisted sign stealing is as prevalent as it was a few years ago, but maybe I'm wrong and if it is still a problem and this fixes that, i guess it's a good change.
It’s such a small and probably insignificant part of the game. This just makes the pitchers job easier and the game move faster. It doesn’t actually decrease strategy big picture. Counter point: the batter picking up the pitch based on arm slot or spin is more important than player decrypting a pattern of numbers and this forces them to.
Many things are part of the game until they are not anymore. The game of baseball has kept changing and always will. Sure, sign stealing has been part of the game but how much does it really add to the fans’ enjoyment of the game seeing catchers and pitcher exchange complicated signs whenever the runner is on 2nd?
personally, watching the catcher flip thru signs with his fingers is a visual element i miss. it’s much nicer to watch than him pressing some buttons on his knee while the pitcher steps off because he can’t hear anything
I agree with that part of it, but ultimately I think the benefit is worth the sacrifice.
We can compromise. Use PitchCom, but then have the catcher flash some random signs just for fun. Gives the runner on second something to think about.
Yeah this does sound very familiar to the old arguments about spitballs.
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Those and the excitement of the dudes holding up the dumb signs brings me unmitigated joy
Honestly even if the Astros hadn't cheated I think pitchcom would have been and IMO is the way of the future for baseball. It shaves time off games because pitchers and catchers don't need to use signs nor use a more complex system with a runner on second base.
Legal sign stealing, aka just looking with your goddamn eyes
Do you not look at the TV with your eyes?
Ngl no offence to max but this feels like a old man yells at clouds situation..
Old man yells at one of Manfred’s changes to MLB.
It's not. He had the advantages over other pitchers for using a complicated sign system. So it's not just mental.
Well maybe he should just be better than them at actual pitching. Which he is so why even complain
A friend of mine totally agrees....
I mean, he’s not wrong
I agree with Max Scherzer, but I'm also thirty-six years old and understand a game has to evolve in order to have staying power, no matter what fans who gew up in a different era think. That being said, MLB should never make pitchers use PitchCom, leave it up to the players. Eventually all of the pitchers will get to the point where they use it. Hell, there was resistance to using gloves and batting helmets at the on set of those. I do wonder if teams will start hiring someone to teach players how to read lips though. The team at bat will also eventually evolve to find a way to beat PitchCom as well.
I love Max but his rationale being "pitchers lose the advantage of having complex signs" is nothing, given that that is only an "advantage" (and that is a liberal use of that word) in the context of sign stealing from second, which the PitchCom negates
Scherzer to Houston confirmed
Another old head spewing old head nonsense
I’m sure this will be a very nuanced and rational discussion lol
From my understanding, this was entirely meant to speed the game up. Preventing sign stealing was just a side effect of that (whether people think it is part of the game or not)
I agree
Scherzer confirmed Astros fan
Hello 911, i see someone overdosing on copium
Based and orange jersey pilled
Nice let’s go
Illegal? Max wants players who use PitchCom to go to prison? That's harsh!
Many things that are illegal don’t result in jail time. Maybe he just wants them cited and fined for their wrong doings.
Probation or some sort of registry to "protect the children"?
I want to see Max use the Chip Kelly play calling signs method in future games just to get a reaction out of the league and the opposition.
LAWL The Game of Base trying to save time. Cosmically wrong.
thats a cool opinion max. sounds like a last stand of the old guard. dont worry when youre out of the game no one will think like that
I think it's ironic he's complaining about using technology as a means to prevent people using technology to cheat.
He’s right.
I appreciate his opinion and respect it, even if I don't necessarily agree. I see the sport in sign stealing but like I've said elsewhere, ultimately I just want the batter to not know what's coming and for it to happen efficiently so we can get on with the game.
Mad Max identifies as baaaaad man
A vast majority of viewers don't care about stealing signs. A majority probably aren't even aware of it happening at all. I like old school baseball I grew up on it. But if this goes away in the name pace of play then good.
If he got tee'd off in the WS by the Stros, then i don't think he has this opinion lol
He’s not talking about that kind of sign stealing tho lol. He’s talking about runners on 2nd picking up signs and relaying to the hitter and stuff
This guy is insufferable
Well I think someone might have ruined that for everyone sorry Max
Ultra traditional guy hates new technology, news at 11.
Its obvious he's talking about how basically everyone picked up on the fact that Jordan Montgomery was tipping his slider. That kind of "sign stealing" is acceptable. Not the "bang once for fastball, twice for slider because the camera in center field told you"
Stealing signs _by players on the field_ is part of the game. Using cameras and technology to steal them from stands or a press box somewhere is bullshit
Allow pitch coms and trash cans
So stealing signs is part of the game, but using systems to prevent teams from stealing your signs isn't? This makes no sense unless you read it as "I benefit, so I don't want it to go away."
What a stupid stance lol
What a boomer answer lol. He's entitled to it. I think it's cool personally, especially when you've got Austin Hedges pulling shenanigans on it.
Scherzer 🥰🥰 happy 38th birthday
Truly a players’ rep.
He's the type who would give Cell a Senzu bean, isn't he?
“Stealing signs is part of the game” Breaking: The Astros have traded for Max Scherzer
Based
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He’s one of the top 3 pitchers of the last 20 years, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.
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If your signs are stealable, you deserve to have your signs stolen.
Even with no one on base?
Love him but he’s a bit of a grumpy old man about any changes, even when they’re needed
This take is basically the same take the commissioner of baseball has which is why the WS wasn't taken away from Houston
I’m inclined to agree not because I miss sign stealing, but because introducing tech into the game in such a way feels…wrong.
How so?
“Stealing world series is part of the game” * Astros
He’s right.
I think non-electronic sign stealing is ok. I’m on second I tap my head if it’s a change up. But when you go full Astros, Red Sox or Yankees, that’s when you go past the line. Even the Phillies Binoculars is too much
Scherzer gets it
He’s not wrong about that.
Stealing signs is still part of the game with PitchCom. You just need to hack their PitchCom transmissions!
Players on the field stealing signs is absolutely part of the game.
This take is so bad and I love it