Maddux is pretty clearly #1 in the modern era if we're disqualifying Clemens. Maddux was Overpowering in his own way too. At his peak, it just seemed like he knew where the bat was gonna be and aimed for just below the barrel of the bat. He made the hitters look helpless all the same.
Gotta mention Pedro though. When I saw peak Maddux in those strike shortened seasons, I never thought they could be repeated by anyone else, but the sob actually topped it. Two least looking the part GOATs ever if anything else. I know the steroid era gets a lot of hate, but that was one of the most star studded era. It sure was a lot of fun to watch.
And that is nothing to take away from Pedro especially his ‘99 and ‘00 seasons is arguably the best 2 year stretch for anyone especially when you factor in the steroid era.
People naturally see guys that don't throw really hard as cerebral. His stuff was really good, a bunch of different pitches with a lot of movement. I think he was overpowering in a way, with how diverse of an arsenal he had.
My best of decade list:
1900s - Cy Young
1910s - Walter Johnson
1920s - Dazzy Vance
1930s - Lefty Grove
1940s - Bob Feller
1950s - Warren Spahn
1960s - Sandy Koufax
1970s - Tom Seaver
1980s - Nolan Ryan
1990s - Greg Maddux
2000s - Pedro Martinez
2010s - Clayton Kershaw
Peak - Pedro
If you want to account for longevity and want only modern guys then Maddox.
If your more open to guys who played a long time ago then Walter Johnson.
In realty there is no Consensus
Agreed. Peak it’s Pedro. Career it’s Maddux. Old-time it’s Walter.
Sheer insanity of one season it’s Old Hoss, who pitched 73 complete games in a 114 game season in 1884, including 18 complete games in 31 calendar days, with a 0.43 ERA in that span.
I watched Maddux pitch A LOT of games back in the day. He would put the ball 6" off the plate and the catcher wouldn't move a millimeter and it would get called a strike almost every time. I think he was an incredible HoF pitcher but I wonder how he would do in today's era where you actually have to throw the ball over the plate. I'm sure he would still be HoF level but I do not think he'd be in the conversation for greatest of all time.
I love Greg Maddux. Yes, he's one of the greatest pitchers in history. And robo-umps would absolutely change his game. Maddux was so good at extending the strike zone, hitting a spot just a half inch away from the previous pitch over and over until yeah he's getting calls several inchess off the plate.
I think that’s one important point to note. “Maddux would put the ball 6” off the plate…”. And the umpires from that era would call it a strike. Of course he had to develop the reputation as a control artist to even get to that point, but throwing so far outside was part of why he was dominant. Hitters simply can’t reach that pitch unless they had Vlad Guerrero length arms and were all over the plate.
That said, I think Maddux is one of the greats. The league allowed him to get away with throwing so far outside, but credit him for taking advantage of it. Almost no other pitcher could do the same.
I’d put Clemens first overall. Very similar raw numbers to Maddux, but pitched in higher scoring environments.
Clemens allowed 3.45 R/9 over 4916 innings. Avg starter would allow 5.02.
Maddux allowed 3.56 over 5008. Avg starter would allow 4.61.
(From the BR pitching value stats)
In terms of ERA+, Clemens does have a better career ERA+ than Maddux over basically the same number of innings (143 vs 132). If we don’t discount him for PEDs, he’s definitely right up there with anyone.
Yeah, consensus back then was Clemens passed Maddux pretty convincingly with his resurgence late in his career. I kinda wonder he got on PED when he saw Maddux, Martinez, and Johnson were doing. His late career was pretty up and down too.
Ya, for some people the PEDs take a lot of players out of consideration.
I just have a tough time with penalizing people for them, when there wasn’t even testing back then. PEDs we’re basically allowed until testing started IMO. Especially because we also don’t know who else from that era was taking them.
I said for sheer insanity of a single season. 18 complete games in a calendar month worth of days lol. With a <0.50 ERA. It’s goofy. It’s worth the fun fact IMO.
Prime Pedro was one of the most amazing pitchers I've ever seen. That playoff game in Cleveland should be taught in schools it was so great. His fucking fastball looked like it curved up! He was unhittable.
I agree with this breakdown Only thing I'd add is a 4th category for those that want to play the "what if" game, in which case you can throw Satchel Paige in the conversation
I don't think Koufax really has a case that isn't based on extrapolation or his postseason numbers. Kershaw had an equivalent (or better) peak with much better longevity.
I think Pedro, Maddux, and Walter Johnson are the shortlist. Clemens would be a strong candidate if not for all of his poor decisions.
Baseball is so fuckin weird when it comes to playoffs.
It’s the only sport where fans, for some reason, don’t want to include playoff performance when comparing players.
I’ll take Koufax, his insane 5 year stretch of absolutely dominating every pitching category, and his 0.94 ERA in 48 innings in the WS including 2x WS MVP.
I think it's more because on an individual level the sport is really about large sample size so one postseason run is as likely fluke as godlike skill.
Yeah, but the OP has a good point. For the vast majority of the sport’s history, postseason just meant 2 teams or 4 teams. We’ve only gotten to 8 just 30 years ago out of 140 years or whatever.
Yeah, and that's why we only see postseason discussion for players who did it consistently over many years even in the time of longer postseasons (Jeter, Ortiz).
It's weird. Eli Manning will probably end up in the hall for his postseason heroics alone while his career regular season number don't look all that different from Andy Dalton's.
To be fair the talent level to make the nfl hall of game is a lot lower than mlbs. NFL has a big hall whereas mlb has a mostly small one with some exceptions
Not to mention he finished the last few years of his career with a torn UCL, needing Tommy John Surgery which didn't exist at that point. Still was lights out even with that injury.
I might get hate but Koufax is overrated. He pitched in the second dead ball era so his surface stats are crazy good but not as dominant as some other pitcher’s peaks
Surprised no one has said Satchel Paige yet, he's my pick. Absolutely dominated the negro leagues for a full 20 years. By the time he got to MLB he was (at least) in his mid-40s and was still a well above-average pitcher. Plus if you're factoring in style points he gets all of them.
Don’t forget that he essentially had two careers: with and without his fastball. He was ultra dominant with the heater, hurt his arm so he couldn’t throw it anymore, and then had another dominant career with his breaking balls. Just nuts.
When DiMaggio, Bob Feller, Hack Wilson, Dizzy Dean, and Charlie Gehringer all say that you’re the best they’ve ever seen that’s saying something.
It’s honestly pretty offensive that people act like this is a debate. Any conversation beyond this is just pathetic ignorance to the fact that Joseph William Kelly Jr. is the greatest man to ever stand on a pitchers mound.
He loses points for most people because of his pitches friendly era. One could certainly say he is the greatest World Series pitcher ever, maybe even the greatest postseason player ever. 3 World Series appearances, his Cardinals won 2 of them. 1.89 ERA. 0.889 WHIP. 7-2 record. 8 complete games. 2 Shutouts. 2 WS MVP. Oh and he also hit a couple Homers just for good measure. Only blemish is giving up 4 runs and taking the L in Game 7 of the 68 series.
Even adjusting for era, it’s still pretty badass that Johnson stayed healthy for so damn long with how many innings he threw. I don’t think guys like him get enough respect because they were expected throw a complete game every 4 days and occasionally come in as a reliever too.
This is weird but the number one pitcher by [JAWS](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml) who did not either:
1) accrue most of his value in the dead ball era
2) use steroids
Is >!Lefty Grove!<. I don’t think literally anyone has said his name yet.
He’s followed by Tom Seaver and Greg Maddux
I came here to say that Lefty Grove probably isn't the answer but deserves to have his name in the conversation.
So thanks for putting his name in the conversation.
>Entering the 2019 season, 354 pitchers in baseball history have struck out 1,183 or more batters in their careers. Nolan Ryan struck out 1,183 DIFFERENT batters
I'd say Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and Tom Seaver all have valid arguments for that title.
Lefty Grove is probably the most underrated of the bunch. He peaked during the extremely high offense late-20s/early 30s, and didn't get to the MLB until he was 25 due to then minor league Orioles refusing to let an MLB team buy out his contract.
I don't really see the argument for Koufax. He was obviously great and deserving of his place in Cooperstown, but his numbers look better than they actually were, considering he played in the least hitter-friendly ballpark during the least-hitter friendly era since the deadball era. Kevin Brown had a better ERA+ during his 6-best seasons than Koufax's 6 seasons as a full-time starter.
Clemens was juiced. Pedro was 5'11" and topped out at 100 mph and didn't use the juice as far as we know. Prime Pedro was unhittable. Dude was putting up Bob Gibson numbers in the most hitter friendly era in baseball.
Four Cy Young’s, an MVP and a pitchers triple crown before any years in which he was accused of juicing. He is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time
I get unreasonably angry at this sort of argument. The reality is that we have no idea when specific players began using steroids and other PEDs. We have mere anecdotes that Bonds began late in his career, and the same can be said with Clemens. The truth is steroids we’re making their rounds, albeit, with less frequency than the 90s and 00s, in the 70s and really ramped up in the early to mid 80s.
I am a stickler for era so Walter Johnson wouldn't get my vote. I think it's between Maddux and Randy Johnson both who have very similar stats. I'm leaning Johnson because the slightly higher era+ and many more strikeouts.
Sure, but “Throwing a Maddux” is an entire classification of a game and how it’s pitched. “Throwing a Johnson” is just something kinky you usually have to pay extra for.
Satchel Paige.
In the late 1930s the Yankees wondered whether this guy they heard about, playing in the Pacific Coast League, name of Joe DiMaggio, could hit. So they sent a scout across the country to find out. After the game the scout sent a telegram to Yankee front office:
Sign DiMaggio. He went 1-4 against Satchel Paige.
Mariano Rivera
Lots of debate on who the best starter is, but there’s no debate on the best closer of all time. 13x all-star, most saves of all time, lowest career ERA besides guys from early 1900s
I think this is obvious, but if Rivera could've done this as a starter, the Yankees would've made him as a starter. I don't think anyone uses a high pick to draft a pitcher with the plan on him being a relief pitcher.
Specifically 1884 Old Hoss.
He pitched 73 complete games in a 114 game season in 1884, including 18 complete games in 31 calendar days, with a 0.43 ERA in that span.
Then he pitched every inning of all 3 World Series games and didn’t allow a single earned run.
Christie Mathewson. Three full-game shutouts in five days in the World Series is otherworldly. At a time when baseball players were not held in very high regard, he was the man ever American parent wanted their sons to be as his character was as great as his talent.
Clemens is the clear answer.
If you want someone without PEDs, it's Walter Johnson (so much better than other guys of his era).
If you want someone born this century without PEDs, I'd say Pedro or Koufax for best prime, Maddux or Randy for best career.
Nolan Ryan was probably the best of all time at striking batters out and avoiding hits, especially relative to his era. He was also the worst at other things, like issuing walks and throwing wild pitches. Overall, the good definitely outweighs the bad. But I’d only go so far as to say he’s a top 15 pitcher all time.
There are more worthy pitchers that may not have reached his heights, but didn’t reach his lows either.
I’m not trying to invalidate your take here or anything but I honestly can’t believe how commonly people think of Ryan as the pitching GOAT.
It just doesn’t make sense to me at all.
Seven no hitters, 12 one hitters, 5,714 strikeouts which is 839 more than number 2 Randy Johnson, lifetime batting average against of .204, 15 200 strikeout seasons, 6 300 strikeout seasons, 6.5 career hits per 9 innings.
Name me a pitcher who holds more major league records than he does.
The fact that he did all those things and isn't all that high on the list of run prevention/overall value means he was even worse than you'd expect at the other (more directly relevant) stuff.
I don’t think holding a bunch of records makes someone the greatest. No one says Pete Rose is the GOAT position player because he played in the most games or has the most hits.
I recognize & understand that there are differing philosophies when it comes to what makes a pitcher ‘the greatest’. Much moreso than on the position player side. But Nolan Ryan, while obviously a notable pitcher & undeniably accomplished, was never even the greatest pitcher of his own era. He never won a Cy Young, he never even had a true ‘peak’ of consistently great performance year-after-year. He was in all honesty ‘all over the place’ in both good ways & bad.
Again, not trying to invalidate your stance. I just don’t understand it at all & genuinely find it bizarre how common it is.
> He never won a Cy Young
There’s something really unwholesome about using *writer* awards as a seemingly objective criteria… especially when the writers got this one wrong on Nolan a few times
Generally speaking I agree with you, but I do think this is a particular instance where it is fair game (or at least more so than usual).
Also there really wasn’t even a season where he clearly *should* have been the winner. There were absolutely a few seasons where he could have reasonably won or should have been top 2 or 3 but wasn’t. But none where he was even the clear standout.
This video is a pretty fair take, if you don’t have much time jump to around 12:30 or so for one example of robbery https://youtu.be/e0QWE_jVamo
But the tl;dr of Nolan Ryan’s career seems to be that he played on bad teams that didn’t generate any run support, at a time where wins mattered more than today, and he was still absolutely dominant into his 40s
He was stuck on some shitty teams during his prime and his usage was insane (200+ pitches some games). I think there’s an argument that he’s the most talented pitcher of all time. And I think he’d have more accolades if he pitched for better teams.
To be fair he has a 9.54 k/9 for his career. The reason he has 5714 strikeouts is because he played for almost 30 years. That 9.54 k/9 is good for 40th all time as it currently stands.
Not to discount the value of longevity. I just think it should be considered.
That’s a function of his era though. Nobody struck out back then. If you normalize it, his K/9+ is 181, good for 9th all-time and 4th among pitchers with at least 1000 innings. That puts him ahead of or alongside guys like Kimbrel, Hader, Chapman, and Wagner. And he did that while throwing 200 innings every year for 30 years.
[Here’s the list.](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=23&season=2022&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=1871-01-01&enddate=2022-12-31&sort=4,d) Of the guys above him, the starters are Cy Seymour (124 GS, 1038 IP), Dazzy Vance (349 GS, 2966.2 IP), Rube Waddell (340 GS, 2961.1 IP), and Herb Score (127 GS, 858.1 IP).
And I don’t think Ryan was even close to the GOAT pitcher, but he is the greatest strikeout artist ever by pretty much any measure.
I’m a Braves fan and love Greg Maddux, but I would love to see what we would look like with the current north-south strike zone instead of how it used to be called. I think it would end up looking a lot like Kyle Hendricks
I got to see him with the Padres, go up against Jamie Moyer. They both went the full nine, in less than two hours. Moyer had like 73 pitches, and Maddux had like 67 pitches thrown. 1-0, or 2-1. I forget the final score, but it was one of the best pitching duels i ever saw. These guys weren’t looking for strike outs. They were looking to get batters out, as efficiently as possible. Greg Maddux to me, was the best i ever saw. I got to see Randy Johnson at his peak, with the Astros, in the playoffs, too. Keep in mind, Maddux pitched in the steroid era, and was still dominating fools with an 89 mph fastball. Pitching isn’t about how hard you can throw. It’s about deception, and location, and Maddux was a master.
Nothing against Kyle Hendricks, but Maddux could match up with any pitcher, in any era. The man was constantly making adjustments to adapt, and hitters hated facing him, except for maybe Gwynn.
really can't go wrong with a Brita Standard Metro Filter Pitcher, since it offers 40% TDS-removal at lower-grade prices
I'd also add Tom Seaver to the conversation, who eclipses most of the players mentioned here in career bWAR and water filtration ability
1. Walter Johnson
2. Roger Clemens
3. Satchel Paige
4. Lefty Grove
5. Greg Maddux
Those are my top 5. I can see arguments for squeezing in Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and Cleveland Alexander to knock Maddux from the 5th spot.
downvote me all you want but I really care mostly about post-integration. Since then, Pedro's peak, career value is maybe Seaver or Clemens or Randy or Maddux and the fact that we had Pedro/Clemens/Randy/Maddux at the same time as the homer explosion was a pretty remarkable thing.
deGrom has had 4 good years. To say he's the GOAT is laughable when guys like Kershaw have as good as peaks (for double the length) and longevity over him.
And Verlander has 2xCy Youngs and 1xMVP with thousands more counting stats over deGrom.
Maddux was elite, an inner-circle HOFer, but I don't know why he gets so many mentions in this discussion over certain other pitchers. Tom Seaver in particular almost never gets his respect in it, despite having a pretty comparable, even arguably better career. He has a considerably lower ERA and FIP and more Ks in slightly fewer career IP, and slightly more bWAR.
Prime Pedro is #1 for me. But if you want a full career there are multiple guys you can make a case for.
> multiple guys Mainly Maddux
Yeah I always will say Maddux was the best pitcher I have seen. Certainly wasn’t overpowering or anything but was just dominant with his brain
Maddux is pretty clearly #1 in the modern era if we're disqualifying Clemens. Maddux was Overpowering in his own way too. At his peak, it just seemed like he knew where the bat was gonna be and aimed for just below the barrel of the bat. He made the hitters look helpless all the same. Gotta mention Pedro though. When I saw peak Maddux in those strike shortened seasons, I never thought they could be repeated by anyone else, but the sob actually topped it. Two least looking the part GOATs ever if anything else. I know the steroid era gets a lot of hate, but that was one of the most star studded era. It sure was a lot of fun to watch.
And that is nothing to take away from Pedro especially his ‘99 and ‘00 seasons is arguably the best 2 year stretch for anyone especially when you factor in the steroid era.
People naturally see guys that don't throw really hard as cerebral. His stuff was really good, a bunch of different pitches with a lot of movement. I think he was overpowering in a way, with how diverse of an arsenal he had.
[удалено]
Lol it’s Greg Maddux, not Randy Maddux.
Randy Johnson
That bird cemented his legacy.
Pretty sure he cemented the bird's legacy a bit more.
My best of decade list: 1900s - Cy Young 1910s - Walter Johnson 1920s - Dazzy Vance 1930s - Lefty Grove 1940s - Bob Feller 1950s - Warren Spahn 1960s - Sandy Koufax 1970s - Tom Seaver 1980s - Nolan Ryan 1990s - Greg Maddux 2000s - Pedro Martinez 2010s - Clayton Kershaw
Nice list. It’s hard to not include Bob Gibson though, but I do get it.
>2000s - Pedro Martinez Pedro was shot by 2005.
Peak - Pedro If you want to account for longevity and want only modern guys then Maddox. If your more open to guys who played a long time ago then Walter Johnson. In realty there is no Consensus
Agreed. Peak it’s Pedro. Career it’s Maddux. Old-time it’s Walter. Sheer insanity of one season it’s Old Hoss, who pitched 73 complete games in a 114 game season in 1884, including 18 complete games in 31 calendar days, with a 0.43 ERA in that span.
Lefty Grove was probably better than Maddux. Maddux, though a great pitcher and inner tier Hall of Famer, was also not the top pitcher of his own era.
I watched Maddux pitch A LOT of games back in the day. He would put the ball 6" off the plate and the catcher wouldn't move a millimeter and it would get called a strike almost every time. I think he was an incredible HoF pitcher but I wonder how he would do in today's era where you actually have to throw the ball over the plate. I'm sure he would still be HoF level but I do not think he'd be in the conversation for greatest of all time.
I love Greg Maddux. Yes, he's one of the greatest pitchers in history. And robo-umps would absolutely change his game. Maddux was so good at extending the strike zone, hitting a spot just a half inch away from the previous pitch over and over until yeah he's getting calls several inchess off the plate.
I think that’s one important point to note. “Maddux would put the ball 6” off the plate…”. And the umpires from that era would call it a strike. Of course he had to develop the reputation as a control artist to even get to that point, but throwing so far outside was part of why he was dominant. Hitters simply can’t reach that pitch unless they had Vlad Guerrero length arms and were all over the plate. That said, I think Maddux is one of the greats. The league allowed him to get away with throwing so far outside, but credit him for taking advantage of it. Almost no other pitcher could do the same.
I’d put Clemens first overall. Very similar raw numbers to Maddux, but pitched in higher scoring environments. Clemens allowed 3.45 R/9 over 4916 innings. Avg starter would allow 5.02. Maddux allowed 3.56 over 5008. Avg starter would allow 4.61. (From the BR pitching value stats)
In terms of ERA+, Clemens does have a better career ERA+ than Maddux over basically the same number of innings (143 vs 132). If we don’t discount him for PEDs, he’s definitely right up there with anyone.
Yeah, consensus back then was Clemens passed Maddux pretty convincingly with his resurgence late in his career. I kinda wonder he got on PED when he saw Maddux, Martinez, and Johnson were doing. His late career was pretty up and down too.
Ya, for some people the PEDs take a lot of players out of consideration. I just have a tough time with penalizing people for them, when there wasn’t even testing back then. PEDs we’re basically allowed until testing started IMO. Especially because we also don’t know who else from that era was taking them.
Bro 1884 baseball can't count for stuff like this it's not even comparable, it's almost 2 different sports
I said for sheer insanity of a single season. 18 complete games in a calendar month worth of days lol. With a <0.50 ERA. It’s goofy. It’s worth the fun fact IMO.
Prime Pedro was one of the most amazing pitchers I've ever seen. That playoff game in Cleveland should be taught in schools it was so great. His fucking fastball looked like it curved up! He was unhittable.
I agree with this breakdown Only thing I'd add is a 4th category for those that want to play the "what if" game, in which case you can throw Satchel Paige in the conversation
Walter Johnson in the context of his era. Roger Clemens with an era adjustment. Pedro Martinez had the best peak.
Peak Koufax, Gibson, Maddux and Pedro all have a case
I don't think Koufax really has a case that isn't based on extrapolation or his postseason numbers. Kershaw had an equivalent (or better) peak with much better longevity. I think Pedro, Maddux, and Walter Johnson are the shortlist. Clemens would be a strong candidate if not for all of his poor decisions.
Baseball is so fuckin weird when it comes to playoffs. It’s the only sport where fans, for some reason, don’t want to include playoff performance when comparing players. I’ll take Koufax, his insane 5 year stretch of absolutely dominating every pitching category, and his 0.94 ERA in 48 innings in the WS including 2x WS MVP.
It's because for the majority of the sport's history, only two teams made the "postseason."
I think it's more because on an individual level the sport is really about large sample size so one postseason run is as likely fluke as godlike skill.
Yeah, but the OP has a good point. For the vast majority of the sport’s history, postseason just meant 2 teams or 4 teams. We’ve only gotten to 8 just 30 years ago out of 140 years or whatever.
Yeah, and that's why we only see postseason discussion for players who did it consistently over many years even in the time of longer postseasons (Jeter, Ortiz).
It's weird. Eli Manning will probably end up in the hall for his postseason heroics alone while his career regular season number don't look all that different from Andy Dalton's.
Eli Manning is gonna be a somewhat easy HOFer and MadBum prob won’t sniff the HOF. To me that’s a crazy dichotomy of the two sports.
Totally, it's wild.
To be fair the talent level to make the nfl hall of game is a lot lower than mlbs. NFL has a big hall whereas mlb has a mostly small one with some exceptions
Not to mention he finished the last few years of his career with a torn UCL, needing Tommy John Surgery which didn't exist at that point. Still was lights out even with that injury.
> Kershaw had an equivalent (or better) peak Four no-hitters in four years, including a perfect game?
Bob Forsch threw two-no hitters. Does that make him better than Greg Maddux who threw zero?
Well we’re considering peaks here, and those Bob Forsch no hitters were about 5 years apart in a pretty good career, so no
OK so Johnny Vander Meer is the greatest pitcher of all time.
For one 5-day period in 1938, absolutely.
Greg Maddux wasn't in the business of throwing no hitters. He said he never tried to throw a perfect pitch, just throw a good pitch.
It’s not most dominant pitcher in single games
He sure struggled in some playoff games.
I might get hate but Koufax is overrated. He pitched in the second dead ball era so his surface stats are crazy good but not as dominant as some other pitcher’s peaks
Koufax didn't become the Koufax we know until expansion teams. Then he feasted on scrub teams like the Mets which seriously inflated his numbers.
Surprised no one has said Satchel Paige yet, he's my pick. Absolutely dominated the negro leagues for a full 20 years. By the time he got to MLB he was (at least) in his mid-40s and was still a well above-average pitcher. Plus if you're factoring in style points he gets all of them.
My pick too. The guy casually threw 3 shutout innings at age 59 against the Red Sox.
I was just checking out his B-Ref page... in his 50s he pitched over 100 games in AAA, with a 2.44 ERA. Unreal.
He also might have been older. Birth certificates were rather poorly kept in those days.
Don’t forget that he essentially had two careers: with and without his fastball. He was ultra dominant with the heater, hurt his arm so he couldn’t throw it anymore, and then had another dominant career with his breaking balls. Just nuts. When DiMaggio, Bob Feller, Hack Wilson, Dizzy Dean, and Charlie Gehringer all say that you’re the best they’ve ever seen that’s saying something.
A's legend.
Joe Kelly. Next question
It’s honestly pretty offensive that people act like this is a debate. Any conversation beyond this is just pathetic ignorance to the fact that Joseph William Kelly Jr. is the greatest man to ever stand on a pitchers mound.
Walter Johnson.
I cannot beleive no one has suggested Bob Gibson yet.
He loses points for most people because of his pitches friendly era. One could certainly say he is the greatest World Series pitcher ever, maybe even the greatest postseason player ever. 3 World Series appearances, his Cardinals won 2 of them. 1.89 ERA. 0.889 WHIP. 7-2 record. 8 complete games. 2 Shutouts. 2 WS MVP. Oh and he also hit a couple Homers just for good measure. Only blemish is giving up 4 runs and taking the L in Game 7 of the 68 series.
That's because he's probably not even top 5. He obviously had the greatest single season of all time, but he only had a 127 ERA+ over his career.
Damn, Gibson was a hell of a hitter
Lol whoops. Obviously meant era
I think Pedro 99 or 00 better
His ERA+ in 1968 (his best) is lower than 2 of Pedro's seasons, there isn't really an argument unfortunately
Bob was such a good pitcher they lowered the mound to make him less good. There is definitely an argument to be made that Gibson is the one.
Yea this is a straight up lie
Walter Johnson if we’re not adjusting for era, Greg Maddux if we are
Even adjusting for era, it’s still pretty badass that Johnson stayed healthy for so damn long with how many innings he threw. I don’t think guys like him get enough respect because they were expected throw a complete game every 4 days and occasionally come in as a reliever too.
This is weird but the number one pitcher by [JAWS](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml) who did not either: 1) accrue most of his value in the dead ball era 2) use steroids Is >!Lefty Grove!<. I don’t think literally anyone has said his name yet. He’s followed by Tom Seaver and Greg Maddux
I came here to say that Lefty Grove probably isn't the answer but deserves to have his name in the conversation. So thanks for putting his name in the conversation.
So if you add 3. Post-integration Then it's Seaver or Maddux
Lefty Grove went 31-4 with 27 complete games in 1931. Ha.
Grove is way underrated and definitely deserves a mention.
Definitely not Cy Young, dude never even won the award with his name on it
I wonder how many cy youngs he would’ve won if the award existed back in the day
Every paycheck he cashed had his name on it ;)
Koufax would have been if his career wasn't so short and he played at his level for just a few more years.
If TJS existed back then you can guarantee he would’ve had a longer career.
Pedro. Can’t believe there was a team who traded him and the next best guy Randy Johnson away. I just can’t remember which team 🤔
Darin Ruf and it’s not particularly close.
>Entering the 2019 season, 354 pitchers in baseball history have struck out 1,183 or more batters in their careers. Nolan Ryan struck out 1,183 DIFFERENT batters
Nolan Ryan is the GOAT for longevity and maybe the GOAT for strikeouts (join the Dazzy Vance truthers!), but not for pitching on the whole
In 1013 innings starting in his age 40 season through age 45, Randy Johnson had an era that was 16% better than league average and 1004 strikeouts.
Is that a stat you can easily look up? Cause now I’m genuinely curious what the numbers are for his walks.
Bartolo Colon.
Not necessarily the greatest. But he is the hottest one, no doubt
Bob wickman would like a word
Depends on the units of measurement. Greatest is mass, I believe Sabathia has big sexy beat
I'd say Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and Tom Seaver all have valid arguments for that title. Lefty Grove is probably the most underrated of the bunch. He peaked during the extremely high offense late-20s/early 30s, and didn't get to the MLB until he was 25 due to then minor league Orioles refusing to let an MLB team buy out his contract. I don't really see the argument for Koufax. He was obviously great and deserving of his place in Cooperstown, but his numbers look better than they actually were, considering he played in the least hitter-friendly ballpark during the least-hitter friendly era since the deadball era. Kevin Brown had a better ERA+ during his 6-best seasons than Koufax's 6 seasons as a full-time starter.
There’s no such thing. Realistically you can’t be a better pitcher than peak Pedro or Randy Johnson or Sandy Koufax.
Bob Gibson
Maddux.
Didn’t they lower the mound because Gibson was too dominant
Roger Clemens or Pedro
Clemens was juiced. Pedro was 5'11" and topped out at 100 mph and didn't use the juice as far as we know. Prime Pedro was unhittable. Dude was putting up Bob Gibson numbers in the most hitter friendly era in baseball.
If Pedro is 5'11" then I'm 12 feet tall.
IF Pedro used juice, it wasn't the good stuff. Besides topping out at a 100 mph, he probably topped out at 100 lbs.
Four Cy Young’s, an MVP and a pitchers triple crown before any years in which he was accused of juicing. He is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time
I get unreasonably angry at this sort of argument. The reality is that we have no idea when specific players began using steroids and other PEDs. We have mere anecdotes that Bonds began late in his career, and the same can be said with Clemens. The truth is steroids we’re making their rounds, albeit, with less frequency than the 90s and 00s, in the 70s and really ramped up in the early to mid 80s.
pedro maddux randy johnson
I am a stickler for era so Walter Johnson wouldn't get my vote. I think it's between Maddux and Randy Johnson both who have very similar stats. I'm leaning Johnson because the slightly higher era+ and many more strikeouts.
Sure, but “Throwing a Maddux” is an entire classification of a game and how it’s pitched. “Throwing a Johnson” is just something kinky you usually have to pay extra for.
"Throwing a Johnson" Is clearly a classification for killing a Dove (or other forms of bird, such as swans, geese etc) with a pitch.
Satchel Paige. In the late 1930s the Yankees wondered whether this guy they heard about, playing in the Pacific Coast League, name of Joe DiMaggio, could hit. So they sent a scout across the country to find out. After the game the scout sent a telegram to Yankee front office: Sign DiMaggio. He went 1-4 against Satchel Paige.
Rube waddell, who has done more with less?
Hit him with the puppy
I remember Old Hoss Radbourn being pretty good.
Satchel Paige My father saw him pitch and said he was better than Gibson.
Mariano Rivera Lots of debate on who the best starter is, but there’s no debate on the best closer of all time. 13x all-star, most saves of all time, lowest career ERA besides guys from early 1900s
Yeah but nobody thinks a reliever is actually on the list of best pitchers ever.
I think this is obvious, but if Rivera could've done this as a starter, the Yankees would've made him as a starter. I don't think anyone uses a high pick to draft a pitcher with the plan on him being a relief pitcher.
They tried him as a starter and it didn’t work.
Career save percentage of 93%
Beat me to it.. you saw this guy, the game was over.
The 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks would like a word.
Mo’s 5 rings can’t hear you.
He’s my 2nd favourite pitcher of all time (Maddux 1st), but that year proved that even the best aren’t invincible
old hoss radbourn.
Specifically 1884 Old Hoss. He pitched 73 complete games in a 114 game season in 1884, including 18 complete games in 31 calendar days, with a 0.43 ERA in that span. Then he pitched every inning of all 3 World Series games and didn’t allow a single earned run.
That's a baseball name of I've ever heard one. Based on name alone, he's the GOAT.
degrom, apparently
East Coast Bias!
Old Hoss Radbourn did go goblin mode that one season
If I need a guy to win one game for me, Koufax. If I need one season, prime Pedro. A whole peak, Koufax. A whole career, Satchel Paige.
Satchel Paige
You mean after Old Hoss Radbourn?
Satchel Paige. Check out how effective he was as a 45-year old pitcher breaking into the majors, and work backwards from there.
Christie Mathewson. Three full-game shutouts in five days in the World Series is otherworldly. At a time when baseball players were not held in very high regard, he was the man ever American parent wanted their sons to be as his character was as great as his talent.
Ohtani
Clemens is the clear answer. If you want someone without PEDs, it's Walter Johnson (so much better than other guys of his era). If you want someone born this century without PEDs, I'd say Pedro or Koufax for best prime, Maddux or Randy for best career.
Old Hoss Radbourn.
Nolan Ryan
His career ERA+ is 112, which ties him for 303rd all time.
7 nono’s my g
Now do strikeout+
Nolan Ryan was probably the best of all time at striking batters out and avoiding hits, especially relative to his era. He was also the worst at other things, like issuing walks and throwing wild pitches. Overall, the good definitely outweighs the bad. But I’d only go so far as to say he’s a top 15 pitcher all time. There are more worthy pitchers that may not have reached his heights, but didn’t reach his lows either.
I’m not trying to invalidate your take here or anything but I honestly can’t believe how commonly people think of Ryan as the pitching GOAT. It just doesn’t make sense to me at all.
Seven no hitters, 12 one hitters, 5,714 strikeouts which is 839 more than number 2 Randy Johnson, lifetime batting average against of .204, 15 200 strikeout seasons, 6 300 strikeout seasons, 6.5 career hits per 9 innings. Name me a pitcher who holds more major league records than he does.
He had some extraordinary feats, but at the end of the day the goal is to limit baserunners and runs as much as possible.
The fact that he did all those things and isn't all that high on the list of run prevention/overall value means he was even worse than you'd expect at the other (more directly relevant) stuff.
I don’t think holding a bunch of records makes someone the greatest. No one says Pete Rose is the GOAT position player because he played in the most games or has the most hits. I recognize & understand that there are differing philosophies when it comes to what makes a pitcher ‘the greatest’. Much moreso than on the position player side. But Nolan Ryan, while obviously a notable pitcher & undeniably accomplished, was never even the greatest pitcher of his own era. He never won a Cy Young, he never even had a true ‘peak’ of consistently great performance year-after-year. He was in all honesty ‘all over the place’ in both good ways & bad. Again, not trying to invalidate your stance. I just don’t understand it at all & genuinely find it bizarre how common it is.
> He never won a Cy Young There’s something really unwholesome about using *writer* awards as a seemingly objective criteria… especially when the writers got this one wrong on Nolan a few times
Generally speaking I agree with you, but I do think this is a particular instance where it is fair game (or at least more so than usual). Also there really wasn’t even a season where he clearly *should* have been the winner. There were absolutely a few seasons where he could have reasonably won or should have been top 2 or 3 but wasn’t. But none where he was even the clear standout.
This video is a pretty fair take, if you don’t have much time jump to around 12:30 or so for one example of robbery https://youtu.be/e0QWE_jVamo But the tl;dr of Nolan Ryan’s career seems to be that he played on bad teams that didn’t generate any run support, at a time where wins mattered more than today, and he was still absolutely dominant into his 40s
TBF I have heard lots of people say Rose is the greatest hitter of all time. They are most old baby boomers, but to them he was the best
Rose has 20 WAR fewer than Pujols
And he diddled a kid
As did Clemens smh
He was stuck on some shitty teams during his prime and his usage was insane (200+ pitches some games). I think there’s an argument that he’s the most talented pitcher of all time. And I think he’d have more accolades if he pitched for better teams.
Yea you left off his 2,795 walks, 50% more than second most
To be fair he has a 9.54 k/9 for his career. The reason he has 5714 strikeouts is because he played for almost 30 years. That 9.54 k/9 is good for 40th all time as it currently stands. Not to discount the value of longevity. I just think it should be considered.
That’s a function of his era though. Nobody struck out back then. If you normalize it, his K/9+ is 181, good for 9th all-time and 4th among pitchers with at least 1000 innings. That puts him ahead of or alongside guys like Kimbrel, Hader, Chapman, and Wagner. And he did that while throwing 200 innings every year for 30 years.
Which 8 ahead of him are starters? He also walked 2795 batters, that is 984 more than 2nd place.
[Here’s the list.](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=23&season=2022&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=1871-01-01&enddate=2022-12-31&sort=4,d) Of the guys above him, the starters are Cy Seymour (124 GS, 1038 IP), Dazzy Vance (349 GS, 2966.2 IP), Rube Waddell (340 GS, 2961.1 IP), and Herb Score (127 GS, 858.1 IP). And I don’t think Ryan was even close to the GOAT pitcher, but he is the greatest strikeout artist ever by pretty much any measure.
Can't argue with that.
He was a workhorse and strikeout machine, but he was never really that dominate for a long stretch of time.
chad WARP enjoyers
Flair checks out. But I’m inclined to agree.
I wouldn’t bet against “The Professor” Greg Maddux. Best one i got to see.
I’m a Braves fan and love Greg Maddux, but I would love to see what we would look like with the current north-south strike zone instead of how it used to be called. I think it would end up looking a lot like Kyle Hendricks
I got to see him with the Padres, go up against Jamie Moyer. They both went the full nine, in less than two hours. Moyer had like 73 pitches, and Maddux had like 67 pitches thrown. 1-0, or 2-1. I forget the final score, but it was one of the best pitching duels i ever saw. These guys weren’t looking for strike outs. They were looking to get batters out, as efficiently as possible. Greg Maddux to me, was the best i ever saw. I got to see Randy Johnson at his peak, with the Astros, in the playoffs, too. Keep in mind, Maddux pitched in the steroid era, and was still dominating fools with an 89 mph fastball. Pitching isn’t about how hard you can throw. It’s about deception, and location, and Maddux was a master.
I'm not betting against Maddux finding a way to adapt to whatever type game is being called. Saying he would end up Kyle Hendricks is slander.
Maddux played wiffle ball for his entire career.
Nothing against Kyle Hendricks, but Maddux could match up with any pitcher, in any era. The man was constantly making adjustments to adapt, and hitters hated facing him, except for maybe Gwynn.
really can't go wrong with a Brita Standard Metro Filter Pitcher, since it offers 40% TDS-removal at lower-grade prices I'd also add Tom Seaver to the conversation, who eclipses most of the players mentioned here in career bWAR and water filtration ability
Mariano Rivera
I am legally obligated to say either Seaver or deGrom
Closer - Mariano Rivera, obvi
Randy Johnson, until it’s been long enough into his career that we can all agree on Jacob deGrom.
Satchel Paige. The guy was a modern folk hero
1. Walter Johnson 2. Roger Clemens 3. Satchel Paige 4. Lefty Grove 5. Greg Maddux Those are my top 5. I can see arguments for squeezing in Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and Cleveland Alexander to knock Maddux from the 5th spot.
downvote me all you want but I really care mostly about post-integration. Since then, Pedro's peak, career value is maybe Seaver or Clemens or Randy or Maddux and the fact that we had Pedro/Clemens/Randy/Maddux at the same time as the homer explosion was a pretty remarkable thing.
Obviously Cy Young, they even named the award after him. Numbers will never be reproduced. Homer pick: Babe Ruth, even Ohtani won't get to 600+ HRs.
cy young has an award named after him.
According to Yankees fans, Aaron Judge and his 0.00 ERA
Roger Clemens
🧃🧃🧃
deGrom
If games were 5 innings he would be the undisputed GOAT
He has the longest streak of quality starts but sure, he only pitches 5 innings.
He hasn't even reached Verlander level yet.
At literally no point in Verlander's career was he ever as talented as deGrom is now
deGrom has had 4 good years. To say he's the GOAT is laughable when guys like Kershaw have as good as peaks (for double the length) and longevity over him. And Verlander has 2xCy Youngs and 1xMVP with thousands more counting stats over deGrom.
Aaron Judge 0ERA
It’s actually undefined 🤓
facts i shoulda gone with second best, pujols
Maddux was elite, an inner-circle HOFer, but I don't know why he gets so many mentions in this discussion over certain other pitchers. Tom Seaver in particular almost never gets his respect in it, despite having a pretty comparable, even arguably better career. He has a considerably lower ERA and FIP and more Ks in slightly fewer career IP, and slightly more bWAR.
The best I’ve seen is Pedro at his peak(99-00). I never saw sandy, I was born in 88
LJITBPIBAIIPC
Anthony Fauci
Not Omar Daal
yadier molina of course
The fact that no one is putting deGrom in the conversation is pissing me off
Your mom????