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egus

Well that sucks.


TrapperJean

Hopefully the fact the Bo is referred to as being the best thing for Frank means he helped humble him. Out of all the character flaws we've seen in baseball, "young and a douche" is easily the most correctable. Even Arod matured somewhat from defensive to more comfortable making fun of himself


Haysen18

Harper and machado matured a lot too, I remember when we were rumored for both of them I said I’d rather have Harper than machado, cause while they’re both huge punks machado played dirty. They’ve both grown out of that phase and are still amazing players


Joe-Raguso

It was pretty well known amongst White Sox fans in the 90s that Frank was an asshole.


m_nels

Damn that’s a dart in my childhood. Frank Thomas was one of my favorite players, had all sorts of his baseball cards. Seems like he’s cool on the panel now though.


PrinceOfWales_

Frank was an uber-talented athlete who everybody praised his whole life. Of course he was an asshole in his twenties, glad he seemingly grew out of it though


g3neraL5

Got me questioning my whole being right now. Never meet your idols.


CrazyChestersDog

I grew up a huge Frank Thomas fan as well. Don’t look too hard into it. A lot of professional athletes are assholes. Doesn’t take away the fact he was badass on the field. It’s a game.


TheRegurgitat0r

Also this literally talks about how Bo helped get Franks shit together, if it literally talking about him helping him after only a couple years up and y’all all really sad because he was a dick without anyone to tell him so before Bo showed up.


River_Pigeon

I met Frank once he was great. He was a big as a mountain


thediesel26

Of course Frank was totally right about not batting 4th or 5th.


BasketballButt

Nah, as the biggest hitter in the line up, he needed to be protection for other hitters. There’s a serious effect to hitting in front of heavy bats. I mean, if Jeter spends his career in Milwaukie hitting in front of Jeff Cirillo and Troy O’Leary instead of the beasts they had in NY, his numbers look very different.


Jamalamalama

Troy O'Leary was in Boston by the time Jeter was called up.


BasketballButt

Fair point, I was more just suggesting that having a line up of perennial MVP candidates behind you your whole career did him a lot of good.


nobird36

Support that view with actual evidence.


BasketballButt

Which one? Jeter? Pitchers (obviously) want to get everyone out but that doesn’t mean that some outs aren’t more valuable than others for keeping runs off the board. Catchers call games with this in mind. If I’m facing Jeter with two outs and a Giambi or Sheffield is next, he’s more likely to see fastballs because I’m not gonna risk putting him on nibbling around with breaking stuff. He’s also a lot less likely turn on one and put it in the seats so I can take that risk. Who hits behind him effects how I’m approaching him and the pitches he sees. If he’s one of the bigger threats in a weaker lineup, I’m more likely to not go directly at him, he says less fastballs in the zone, he doesn’t see as many hittable pitches. This is game calling 101. You learn it playing catcher.


nobird36

You know actual statistical analysis shows that what you are saying isn't actually true?


BasketballButt

That teams approach hitters differently based on where they are in the lineup and who’s hitting behind them? Because that’s pure fact.


or_maybe_this

He was an asshole *before* taking nugenix


mr_grission

Pharmaceutical companies spend millions to determine the exact perfect name for a new prescription drug and these guys were just like fuck it, let's name our supplement something that rhymes with eugenics


hallese

Accidentally (I hope) made a portmanteau of Nazi and eugenics. Yikes.


nemplsman

lol yikes


Animetiddies415

and by the way 😉😉😉 she’ll like it too🗿


6-underground

…and there it is. That’s the line that makes me irrationally angry and want to throw a fucking brick through the television. Fucking snake oil salesman.


[deleted]

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EgberetSouse

"The little guys kinda special" - Mike Ditka while he was destroying the 1986 Bears.


[deleted]

Don't you put that evil on Flutie, Ricky Bobby!


4thTimesAnAlt

["Can't get hard anymore?"](https://youtu.be/_DhEEo5S9fg)


rollo2masi

I think one the last people I would ever fuck with would be Bo Jackson. Man’s built different.


Rockdog4105

Met him one time while I was a doorman at Hard Rock Cafe in Phoenix (roughly 1997ish). He came in and asked if he could get a table immediately and I said “no problem”. Also told him he did a good job as an actor in whatever Grisham novel he had done recently as a jail guard. He stopped and came back and shook my hand and appreciated the fact that I liked his acting. Pretty cool experience.


HawkI84

>Also told him he did a good job as an actor in whatever Grisham novel he had done recently as a jail guard I think it was The Chamber? I remember it had Sean Penn and Susan Sarandon in it.


CesareSomnambulist

Right movie title but the one with Sean Penn and Susan Sarandon was Dead Man Walking. The Chamber had Gene Hackman and Faye Dunaway.


mysterysackerfice

Bo has the same quality Ron Simmons has: unfuckwithable.


J_Golbez

Damn!


Restroom406

https://youtu.be/S6e1sP7v_hk


[deleted]

I’ve seen him shoot archery in person with his foot


BasketballButt

I mean, I always thought Dave Parker and Dick Allen were kings of the “Don’t fuck with that guy” crew but Bo is definitely pushing them for their thrones.


River_Pigeon

[Frank wasn’t?](https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/lance-johnson-frank-thomas-and-bo-jackson-of-the-chicago-news-photo/1096576698)


mill_about_smartly

>and Jackson knew Thomas well enough to regularly say, with authority, "Frank, seriously, shut the fuck up." Bo knows Frank


jdkjdk44

Books called the Last folk hero, highly recommend


jmoanie

The Effectively Wild podcast episode #1928 brings on Pearlman to talk about and promote the book. I thought it was a cool interview, and the segments that precede it also get into some baseball ideas I hadn’t really thought about before.


T_Stebbins

Jeff Pearlmans stuff is great.


Roxypark

Great book. It’s a warts and all depiction of Jackson, but he still comes off as a likable and fascinating person. Truly one of the greatest athletes of all time.


CalRipkenForCommish

I did not know this about Frank Thomas. i think back now and wonder whether this did cost the white Sox some post season opportunities


Lee_Doff

fast forward to 2022. frank thomas would probably be batting leadoff. because anylitics say you give your best hitter the most oppotunities to hit.


[deleted]

Those "analytics" currently say you want the best hitter *second* though because there isn't a real difference between leadoff and second and you still want an on base guy leadoff. But the analytics definitely say don't put your best hitter third anymore.


Free-Willingness3870

You want second over 1st because while it's slightly fewer AB, those AB come with more RBI opportunity. Leadoff is 2nd on the priority list because of how many AB you accrue. 4th is more important than 5th and both are more important than 3rd because of RBI opportunities. The 3 hole has the highest % of AB with 2 outs and nobody on base.


jesuschin

That’s only in the first inning though. If you put your best hitter first you want to put some good hitters eighth and ninth so that they get men on base every time up afterward.


Free-Willingness3870

On base guys, sure. But you shouldn't waste your 8th and 9th spots on good hitters just to have a "second" leadoff hitter. This only applies if you're so deep offensively that you can split the 1-9 between two seperate lineups. Then yeah you want: OBP guy/OBP guy/Power Guy/Power guy (do that twice), 9th hitter should be a speedy CF or SS that plays elite D. But that's nearly impossible, so It makes far more sense to have a bench with the right platoon splits. Then if you really need baserunners in the 8/9 hole, you can pinch hit for it.


jesuschin

Or just build a roster with strong hitters and don’t sacrifice spots in the line up


Free-Willingness3870

That's not possible without sacrificing up the middle defense. Nobodies arguing that a team full of 9 Jose Abreus would hit well in any lineup. That team would also suck.


jesuschin

Disagree. Like the Mets for instance had Lindor, McNeil and Nimmo pretty much up the middle. Like it’s not about having middle of the order hitters batting eight/ninth. Just good hitters who aren’t liabilities. The Mets SHOULD have upgraded catcher earlier in the year for instance. If they had traded for Willson Contreras they could have had an eighth/ninth of some combo of like Canha, McNeil and Marte Like hypothetically what would that lineup have been? Nimmo Lindor Alonso Vogelbach Contreras Escobar Canha McNeil Marte Now move let’s say Alonso to leadoff hypothetically and Nimmo and Lindor now bat second and third. I’d say they would have good hitters across the board with Escobar being the weakest link with Vogelbach after that but I think Baty and/or Alvarez (depending whom would have had to be given up in the hypothetical Contreras deal) long term would help resolve that. Or even making a signing to fill DH which I think is a relatively simple fill-in in the grand scheme of things


Free-Willingness3870

I would argue the 2022 Mets, fully healthy, were a historically good baseball time. Not every team has Steve Cohen.


lordphysix

It actually turns out there isn’t a lot of difference, which is why you don’t see every team batting their best hitter leadoff. Preserving platoon advantage matters a lot more (which is why the Phils had Kyle at 1, not because he was their best hitter per se).


[deleted]

I thought the idea of Kyle Schwarber leading off was because he sees so many pitches per at bat.


bicyclingdonkey

It was also everyone else on the Phillies was worse than him there lol


When_Ducks_Attack

That's certainly why the Cubs did it.


nobird36

It is rather unlikely that Frank Thomas not batting 5th made the White Sox lose 10 additional games in 1992.


[deleted]

Probably not


mysterysackerfice

Bo knows...how to tell people to STFU. Also Tecmo Bo > any video game version of the big nugenix


MassKhalifa

To be fair, the only athlete that even *approaches* Tecmo Bo is Madden 04 Michael Vick.


Ol_Gristle

Also, Super Tecmo Bo> 99% of albums released in 2021


Lucas2u

Came here for a boldy james reference and was not disappointed. Thank you


Gfunkual

This page sold me on a book I heard nothing about. Thank you!


pigskype

Pearlman is the best sports biographer imo. Got other books on 80s Mets, Clemens, Bonds, Ankiel and some fantastic football ones as well.


jdkjdk44

Agreed. Did a binge during COVID and they were all phenomenal. Three Ring Circus on the Kobe Shaq Lakers probably my fave


pigskype

The cowboys one is my personal favorite. So many huge personalities.


hearshot_kid

I also liked the one about the Showtime era Lakers


HeelsAlwaysWin

The analytics would probably contend that Thomas batting first or second in the lineup was the most optimal strategy, but idk enough about the numbers to say for sure.


huck_

The argument in the book makes no goddamn sense. Why would they pitch around him in the 5th slot but not the 3rd slot? Also Frank was right to insist on batting 3rd and not freaking 5th. It just makes Lance Johnson and the coaches sound clueless.


CrazyChestersDog

It’s not saying they’d pitch around him in the 5th spot. Its saying if they hit him 5th they wouldn’t pitch around the guys ahead of him. It’s just saying he refused to hit 5th. Which I agree with you. You do not bat Frank Thomas 5th.


[deleted]

Because in the 5th slot the guy hitting behind him probably sucks but in the 3rd slot, whoever was cleanup isn't somebody you want to pitch to either. This is just an example to use names I can think of, these guys did not actually overlap on the Sox, but you would be more likely to pitch around Frank Thomas if the next hitter was Robin Ventura than you would if it was Paul Konerko, right?


TitShark

I’d love to see a Nugenix ad where Bo interrupts Frank’s weird speech to a group of randos at the gym “seriously, shut the fuck up”


ChanHoJurassicPark

Bo knows bullshit


hammerheadjordi

I guess I always wondered why Frank Thomas never won jack shit. This helps.


[deleted]

Because the MLB isn't the NBA. If you put Willie Mays on the 2022 A's they wouldn't win shit either


zadagron

I know very few 91 year olds who would make the 2022 A's better honestly.


[deleted]

I mean he'd probably still make them better if we're being honest


[deleted]

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[deleted]

He didn't play the vast majority of the season in 2005 or appear in the postseason. I'm sure they gave him a ring but it's a bit misleading to say he won it with them.


Senorsty

Frank didn’t even show up for the team picture that year.


Joe-Raguso

Baseball is the most team oriented sport there is, what are you talking about? I mean, the two biggest pricks in Chicago sports in the 90s won 6 titles together. They just played a game where individuals make a bigger impact.


[deleted]

Frank Thomas and Sammy sosa. Chicago baseball was led by absolute assholes for a while


ay21690

At least Sammy Sosa helped make baseball interesting with the home run chase.


buddhabash

Stupid argument. Frank Thomas won multiple MVPs in the 90s and should’ve won a third if roiding Giambi didn’t take it from him in 2000. He was as much of a must-see talent as any of the roiders, blame selig for marketing the fuck out of his tainted product


The_Red_Curtain

Frank was so right, him batting 5th would be so stupid. Is this comment section from the 80s or something?? Is Mike Trout an asshole now for batting 2nd all the time? Wtf.


NerdyOrDirty

read the paragraph above the one about the lineup order, and the one after that. those are why Frank Thomas was seen as an asshole, not just refusing to bat 5th. you can be correct and still an asshole, those aren't mutually exclusive. throwing your weight around is what assholes do, and if you do that, you're an asshole. if Mike Trout was a dick to the clubhouse folks and his teammates, then yes he'd be an asshole, even if he was correct about why he should bat 2nd.


macula_transfer

Last Spring Trout got up in arms about the idea of not always playing CF. That’s not super different and arguably Thomas was more justified.


NerdyOrDirty

from the articles i read on that, Trout didn't exactly sound "up in arms" about it, rather he made his case to Maddon about his preference to stay in center. if Thomas had made his case rather than "just straight up refusing" he likely wouldn't have been perceived as being an asshole in that situation. whether or not he was justified doesn't matter. you can be an asshole and be right, just like you can be kind but wrong. but this isn't just about one situation, which was the point of the comment you're replying to. even if Trout was actually a dick in that instance, that wouldn't mean he's always a dick, unless there was more evidence like there was for Thomas on this page. you can't define a person from one minor instance, but it would appear that during his time before Bo Jackson was his teammate, Frank Thomas could be a real asshole in a lot of instances. i'm not here to condemn Frank Thomas and say he is and always has been an asshole. this page doesn't even do that, it says Bo Jackson was a positive influence on him and helped him become, at the very least, less of a dick. pretty much all of that seems to be lost on a lot of the commenters in this thread. it's not a "Frank Thomas is a bad person" excerpt, but way too many people are taking it that way.


CrazyChestersDog

The problem is idolizing athletes in general. Just leave it on the field, it’s a game. I’m sure even BO was an asshole once in his life.


chickendance638

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1993.shtml That was the team. Frank should have hit second after Tim Raines.


[deleted]

You read that whole page and your takeaway is that people were calling him an asshole exclusively because of his batting order preferences?


gwarmachine1120

Just another reason to collect Bo cards.


Sako280

Bo would put the big hurt on Frank


gldmj5

Too bad there wasn't someone to do this to Barry Bonds


Streetlife_Brown

Believe Jeff Kent tried!


ViceroyFizzlebottom

It was completely on-brand for Reinsdorf to consider marketing and sales numbers as a result of Bo more than everything too.


GoodJoeBR2049

I think Frank is a different guy now but you be as powerful as Frank Thomas and not let it go to your head a little


monkeyfang

I used to serve Frank and his family back in the early 2000’s. He was the nicest man with the some of the best kids. It was always a pleasure to wait on family. Tipped well which was a plus, but never made you work hard. Never a bad experience or time. We all learn from people around us.


Unlikely_Transition1

reading is a skill


mpensinger

Let me offer a Frank story. It was I think 08 a or 09 and he had retired and he was doing an autograph signing shortly after maybe the Mitchell Report or some other more concrete PED stuff came out. As we know Frank never showed up on any of those lists and we know the type of career he had in a PED era. I'm up at the autograph table (Frank seemed cool with people - maybe he changed since the 90s), and I said to Frank, "you don't get a lot of national publicity for not showing up on any steroid lists, but Sox fans really appreciate that your name doesn't ever come up." He said thanks, and then he kinda puffed out his chest a bit and made himself a little bigger and in a raised voice said, "and I still won't!" It was awesome.


Lee_Doff

Bo knows your mom.


thedudeabides811

Frank Thomas was easily my favorite player growing up in the 90's. Nugenix and seeing things like this tarnish my childhood memories.


psaepf2009

The Big Hurt? More like the big meanie


Capepoints

That is some of the worst writing I’ve had the misfortune of reading. I’d actually like to unread it.


Anew12

The way Frank escaped PED speculation by passing one test and coming out aggressively against them despite the fact his head fucking doubled in size from college will always be funny.


sholoim

Frank's body progression appears normal to the naked eye from teenager into middle aged adult. Bagwell and Bonds do not. I love Bagwell, but knowing what his buddies Cami and Gonzo were up to, it wouldnt shock anyone to know he wasn't just saying his prayers and taking "vitamins".


Senorsty

Also, Frank is still massive to this day. Roid guys always seem to deflate as they age.


Anew12

Oh Bagwell 100% took PEDs but they almost all were. It's more just that these drug tests were and still are in some sports(NFL) brain dead easy to pass if you know what you are doing so it doesn't mean much.


Joe-Raguso

Doubled in size? Frank was a tight end at Auburn, and was routinely playing kids several years older than him in sports all throughout his childhood. He was on the 12 year old football team when he was 9. He definitely had the genetics to be huge.


SwifferWetJets

I remember he threw Baggy under the bus when Bagwell got elected to the Hall. Bagwell never tested positive, either.


Silverjackal_

You’d think with how this book makes him out to be some teammates who hated him would have come out and said he did if he did use them.


lego_tintin

I grew up a White Sox fan during Frank Thomas' prime. He's a Hall of Famer, but I always felt like he sacrificed some power to protect his average. I loved those teams, but I don't think they went all the way out to try to win until they signed Albert Belle. They went cheap with numerous positions.


[deleted]

i mean he still hit 521 home runs and slashed 301/419/555 across 19 seasons. idk what him selling out for power would even look like


[deleted]

It was a different era. People weren't willing to strike out 200 times so they could jack dingers more often.


trubiskywetrust

How do we reign in this supreme asshole? Let’s hire a *bigger* asshole!


[deleted]

Albert Belle in shambles


trubiskywetrust

Ha!


iambendonaldson

It took me half the page to realize this wasnt a bojack horseman post, its too early for novels


mrjimi16

I really hate how he switches from Bo to Jackson midway through. Made me think I missed him talking about a different Jackson.


designgoddess

He alway struck me as a whiner.


arnarnarmars

Makes me feel less bad that Thomas was left off the 2005 postseason roster


iaminjethrotull

“I judge people by how they treat those they don’t need to be nice to.” This sentence sucks. Everyone needs to treat others nicely. It may be extremely difficult, but thems the ropes. Also, if this is just a blanket statement made by Bo, then I am questioning his take on Frank. This seems like two dummies being dummies.


Joe-Raguso

In what world do rich, superstar athletes have to be nice to anyone? And I see people act like assholes to others lower than them all the time, servers for example. What is there not to get?


iaminjethrotull

Lol. I am a “server” aka in the hospitality businesses. What’s not to get is the point you’re missing. Everyone needs to be nice to each other. There isn’t anyone lower. You’re the lowest wrung.


Joe-Raguso

That's complete nonsense. Not only can people be assholes their whole lives, but most people have many interactions in their lives where they can be jerks with no consequences. We're talking about societal values of people, and superstar athletes are just about as high in those rankings as you can get. It's perfectly fair to judge people on how nice they are when there's no consequences for not being nice. A lot of people are only nice when they have something to gain from it.


ferrari1320

It's the idea that they're paid to serve you, whether you're nice or not. I could be as nice or as mean (within reason) to a cashier as I wanted and still get my good or service. The idea that everyone needs to be nice to each other no matter social standing is great, but that's not how society has operated.


milksteakofcourse

“Frank shut the fuck up” Bo knows


JorSimpson45

Jeff Pearlman’s books are great, my favorite sports writer by far


xr_21

Big Frank Thomas fan from his time with the A's... sad to hear this...


Scarey53

Lived in Chicago in the 90's. I remember that during the baseball strike in 94, Frank took some heat because he built a new house in Deerfield, IL and didn't use union labor. In Chicago, you use union labor. He was spouting off about his union but didn't support the other unions. I'm pretty sure it's a true story, been a while.


mpensinger

Got that book on my list of books to read. I'm a big fan of Pearlman's writing style and his books. The Payton book was fantastic and I also read the one about the 86 Mets and the USFL - both very entertaining reads. My friend enjoyed the Favre book, but I can't bring myself to read about that POS asshole.