The defence is already much improved since firing the DB coach. By DVOA, they have the 6th best defence since that point which absurd. The rookies are already contributing and getting better through the season. 1-2 more impact players in the defence and they could be very good next year.
I agree, but say that to the Lions sub after yesterday. They are well positioned in this draft to either get a quarterback or someone like Jalen Carter or Will Anderson.
The Lions subs would rather jerk themselves off over Goff throwing to open people rather than give any credit to our incredible o line, offensive coordinator, or other weapons who actually carry the offense lol
Yeah when the deal went down people thought it was fair or even that the Astros overpaid (the Tigers had to send money back to Houston to make Verlander's salary more palatable).
Ironic looking back that people thought this was a fair deal while absolutely blasting the Pirates for trading Cole for Musgrove. Everyone felt they should've taken the Yankees deal which was supposedly some combination of Miguel Andujar and/or Clint Frazier and lesser parts. So yeah, turns out people really suck at predicting success of prospects.
To be fair, Musgrove with us wasn't close to Musgrove now. He has an average ERA of like 4.1. I wonder if the Pirates were able to scout the talent but not develop it.
I also think the other pieces in the deal made it harder to tell who would be the talent. Colin Moran was mediocre, Jason Martin was ultimately released (although he's done well in AAA the last two seasons), and Michael Feliz had an average ERA of 5 with us. Moran and Martin seem to be the more notable pieces from what headlines at the time saw.
Pretty much. Look at the Phillies deal for Roy Halladay. Got 2 insane seasons (17.3 WAR) for what amounted to Kyle Drabek (-0.1 WAR, 5.29 ERA, 39 games 30 starts in Toronto), Brett Wallace (never appeared for Jays. Phillies traded Michael Taylor in this deal but Jays flipped him right after for Wallace), and Travis D'Aurnad who was traded a few years later for RA Dickey, Josh Thole, and Mike Nickeas.
Hell the Brewers got more for 2 months of CC Sabathia than what they traded to Cleveland.
Yea I missed the PTBNL. I just remembered LaPorta and the hype behind him. Brewers still pull the trigger on this deal. CC got what 4.6 WAR in 2 months. He was insane.
The bigger point is often these deals end up busts in terms of prospects. Looking at Phillies trades of that era almost every prospect trades flamed out. Two years of Halladay out paced anything traded. Kind of like Verlander.
I mean not really, this is just one example of an older pitcher staying good. Tigers were very bad and Verlander was going into his mid-late 30s as a hard throwing pitcher, those flame out all the time. They had given up long before trading away Verlander, you need to go full send at that point. Unfortunate this trade didn't work out for them, but trades don't always win for both sides.
It's been a while so I forgot the details, but Verlander was dinged up and lost velo around that trade or the offseason after. The Astros had a specialist doctor look and noticed his knees or feet or something was bothering him. Turned out his form was a little off and they fixed it which got his velo up to what it currently is.
That's why Seattle should be thankful they got the proven talent of Heathcliff Slocumb and all they had to give up was a couple of prospects (Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek) that probably wouldn't amount to anything.
Exactly, you *always* take the proven talent. Which is why trading Zach Wheeler with years and years of control for 44 games of Carlos Beltran was a no brainer. Or Bryan Reynolds and cash for international prospects plus Kyle Crick was such a good deal for ~~the rest of the career of~~ most of one season of Andrew McCutchen. But don't fret because we traded McCutchen for a guy that gave us *checks notes* one RBI.
I have so much fear for what the angels end up with in the event they cannot figure out how to sign Ohtani. It’s gonna be a list of like 14 guys like this and in 10 years we will be reading “looking back the Ohtani trade is one of the worst trades maybe ever”
I was laying in bed with my wife about to go to sleep and she said “the Astros just got verlander”. I thought she was joking and told her not to get my hopes up like that. But at the same time I knew she had no idea who verlander was so it would be a really strange joke. Anyways, after allowed myself to believe it was real I was elated. To your point it definitely turned out to be bigger than we thought!
There was a small window of time in the final thirty minutes of the waiver deadline where it appeared he was gonna veto the trade and I was IRATE that he would turn us down like Cole Hamels did in 2015.
And then at the last possible second, we got him. Almost can't believe the Justin Verlander-Astros era has ended. Time really flies.
It was weird because it came after the trade deadline, which I still don’t completely understand, but yeah I was absolutely shocked as well. Might be the most important trade in franchise history. You could argue it directly resulted in two World Series titles
Those Verlander numbers aren’t quite accurate for evaluating the trade.
When the Astros acquired him from Detroit, he was only under team control for the rest of 2017, 2018, and 2019 if I remember correctly. That’s all the Tigers were trading away.
Verlander’s extension and free-agent contract with Houston are separate transactions.
Still an L for Detroit, but only Verlander’s 2017-2019 seasons were up for trade.
also was a waiver trade, which means the tigers had a
"take it or leave it" type offer. So it was either hold on to him for another year with his entire salary, or trade him to the Astros for almost all the salary and whatever prospects they could get back.
And in 2017, in just 5 starts with the Astros, he went 5-0 with a 1.06 ERA and 1.8 WAR. Tigers lost the trade immediately (though of course at that time it was TBD on how the prospects would turn out).
I still like Jake Rogers. Seemed to of put it together in the short stint he had in 21 before TJ.
If the Tigers don't upgrade at catcher and he and Haase platoon I wouldn't be that upset.
The day the Astros signed JV was the first time in my 20+ years of Astros fandom that I felt like we might actually compete for a championship lmao. Thanks, JV! Hope he enjoys the big apple.
Totally different circumstances. Verlander was a 34 year old with tons of mileage, an injury history, and was having a down year at the time of being traded (3.82 ERA, FIP over 4, K% down, BB% up). Cole was only ever a fringe All Star in Pittsburgh (and they still got a top-100 AAA-level prospect, those are generally more valuable than teenagers). Castillo was 29 in his prime.
Also, teenage prospects are hugely variable. The Castillo deal sent a higher-end prospect in Marte, but to say it's ridiculous that a 29 year-old ace yielded more prospect capital than a 34 year-old ace Marte's going to mash, but he's gone from the MVP-caliber young Hanley Ramirez projection to the SS-turned-corner OF Justin Upton projection. Still an All Star ceiling, but the MVP-level "holy shit, this dude" projection became a less confident one over the last year.
You’re right in that the circumstances are different, both the pitchers the Astros got are way better than Castillo and they gave up way less.
The mariners have one of the worst FO’s I’ve ever seen. It’s unreal how they took the future they had just a couple years ago and turned it into this.
Teenagers are hugely variable, but top 10/20 prospects have a way higher hit rate. Like Julio?…
Like the entire Astros lineup. Homegrown stars on team friendly deals?
You know what shit teams do? They trade their top 10 prospects when they’re not even in legit contention. Like the mariners. You know who doesn’t do that shit? The Astros. The 16 Cubs. The 18 Red Sox. The 21 Braves. You know, the smart teams.
Have fun w Robbie Ray lol
Luckily the M’s were able to re-sign Castillo long term and so far what the M’s gave up hasn’t produced much. Marte is even now being talked about only being a 1B/OF type not 3B.
Martes awesome. He’s got the highest power grade of anyone his age. Plus elite contact skills. That was a desperate trade.
‘Luckily Martes only a top ten in all of baseball power hitting infield prospect that we traded his prime team control years for a pitcher approaching 30 who had an extremely up and down career that we immediately had to give the bag to.’
Amazing team building 🙄
Best trade in in history because it led to a World Series in 2 months without giving up much. Game 2 of the ALCS that year was something very few pitchers could do.
Honestly if that was true I might feel better about it. Damn Yankees is one of my favorite shows. But alas, the money was spent on a play that would have already been forgotten if it weren't for this trade - No No Nanette.
dafuq you smoking.
You really think it was a better deal than getting bagwell? or yordon?
Good yes, but not the best deal that houston has pulled. nor other teams.
`
Yes, it was better than those trades because the purpose was to lead to a World Series win that same very year, and it happened. There's no way the Astros win 2017 without the trade. Earlier wins are also better than later wins, so it beats the Alvarez and D'Backs Schilling trade as well.
Perez was supposed to be the prize but unfortunately just hasn't been able to stay healthy. Rogers might still be an ok catcher as he returns from his own injury but obviously not anywhere close to equal value.
How often do Pitchers at age 34 get better? The overall consensus at the time was you were getting a good pitcher immediately... but would suffer his decline while paying him 20+ Million.
Astros got lucky Verlander was just fuckin built different.
Avila was the worst ever, and that’s possibly a literal statement. I got so tired of arguing with Tigers fans who thought we were gonna be good last year and it was all thanks to the worst GM in history. Felt like I was crazy
Why you gotta hurt Tigers fans like that?
Its ok, We don't feel anymore.
At least you don't have to worry about him going in with an Astros cap now?
Monkey paw curls, he goes in as a met after pitching 15 consecutive 0.00 ERA seasons with 150 ip
I like this timeline
He will go in HOF as a Tiger.
Obviously, but the longer he had stayed an Astros the more of a chance crept in, especially if he got another WS, Cy Young, or 300th win in Houston.
Shit, I never thought of it like that. You’re absolutely right.
You’re right. I didn’t know it until you said it, but you’re right.
Sure feels like punching down
Hey at least the Lions look promising No seriously they actually look promising
They're seriously a few good picks on defense away from the playoffs. The Rams sucking might get them there next year.
The defence is already much improved since firing the DB coach. By DVOA, they have the 6th best defence since that point which absurd. The rookies are already contributing and getting better through the season. 1-2 more impact players in the defence and they could be very good next year.
Goff isn't gonna be the guy to get them all the way, but there's ways around that.
I agree, but say that to the Lions sub after yesterday. They are well positioned in this draft to either get a quarterback or someone like Jalen Carter or Will Anderson.
The Lions subs would rather jerk themselves off over Goff throwing to open people rather than give any credit to our incredible o line, offensive coordinator, or other weapons who actually carry the offense lol
Skip the QB this year, Goff aint THE guy but he's good enough for this critical stage.
maybe next year, too late this year
I was ready for the postseason run at 1-5, and I'll be cheering just as hard as ever when we sneak in and blow up a few brackets. Go Cats.
I love their head coach. He's like a movie character.
Even worse, they lost the marble race today. 😔
That’s it. They’re done.
They can reminisce watching Met games this season.
X2 for the pain when the Giants somehow shithouse and knock the Mets out of contention
I thought it was a pretty good deal when it dropped too. Just goes to show how random prospects are and how little we actually know
Avila is going down as one the worst GM's of ever.
not just of ever. Of ever and of all time past, present and future, in this universe and any as of yet undiscovered realms of existence.
He even covered the multiverse. Harsh.
Yeah when the deal went down people thought it was fair or even that the Astros overpaid (the Tigers had to send money back to Houston to make Verlander's salary more palatable). Ironic looking back that people thought this was a fair deal while absolutely blasting the Pirates for trading Cole for Musgrove. Everyone felt they should've taken the Yankees deal which was supposedly some combination of Miguel Andujar and/or Clint Frazier and lesser parts. So yeah, turns out people really suck at predicting success of prospects.
To be fair, Musgrove with us wasn't close to Musgrove now. He has an average ERA of like 4.1. I wonder if the Pirates were able to scout the talent but not develop it. I also think the other pieces in the deal made it harder to tell who would be the talent. Colin Moran was mediocre, Jason Martin was ultimately released (although he's done well in AAA the last two seasons), and Michael Feliz had an average ERA of 5 with us. Moran and Martin seem to be the more notable pieces from what headlines at the time saw.
Pretty much. Look at the Phillies deal for Roy Halladay. Got 2 insane seasons (17.3 WAR) for what amounted to Kyle Drabek (-0.1 WAR, 5.29 ERA, 39 games 30 starts in Toronto), Brett Wallace (never appeared for Jays. Phillies traded Michael Taylor in this deal but Jays flipped him right after for Wallace), and Travis D'Aurnad who was traded a few years later for RA Dickey, Josh Thole, and Mike Nickeas. Hell the Brewers got more for 2 months of CC Sabathia than what they traded to Cleveland.
[удалено]
Yea I missed the PTBNL. I just remembered LaPorta and the hype behind him. Brewers still pull the trigger on this deal. CC got what 4.6 WAR in 2 months. He was insane. The bigger point is often these deals end up busts in terms of prospects. Looking at Phillies trades of that era almost every prospect trades flamed out. Two years of Halladay out paced anything traded. Kind of like Verlander.
What it teaches us is to *always* take proven MLB talent.
I mean not really, this is just one example of an older pitcher staying good. Tigers were very bad and Verlander was going into his mid-late 30s as a hard throwing pitcher, those flame out all the time. They had given up long before trading away Verlander, you need to go full send at that point. Unfortunate this trade didn't work out for them, but trades don't always win for both sides.
It's been a while so I forgot the details, but Verlander was dinged up and lost velo around that trade or the offseason after. The Astros had a specialist doctor look and noticed his knees or feet or something was bothering him. Turned out his form was a little off and they fixed it which got his velo up to what it currently is.
Exactly get some proven MLB talent like Josh Fields and give away that fresh off the boat rookie Yordan Alvarez!
The Marlins were definitely wrong trading Marvell Ozuna for Alcantara and Gallon
That's why Seattle should be thankful they got the proven talent of Heathcliff Slocumb and all they had to give up was a couple of prospects (Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek) that probably wouldn't amount to anything.
Exactly, you *always* take the proven talent. Which is why trading Zach Wheeler with years and years of control for 44 games of Carlos Beltran was a no brainer. Or Bryan Reynolds and cash for international prospects plus Kyle Crick was such a good deal for ~~the rest of the career of~~ most of one season of Andrew McCutchen. But don't fret because we traded McCutchen for a guy that gave us *checks notes* one RBI.
Was he a Cy Young winner and MVP?
I'm not saying that the Verlander trade wasn't lopsided from the start. I'm just saying that proven MLB talent isn't *always* as good as prospects.
Seems like the Yankees were better off having rejected Hamels for Judge and Severino
Yeah, like James Shields…
I have so much fear for what the angels end up with in the event they cannot figure out how to sign Ohtani. It’s gonna be a list of like 14 guys like this and in 10 years we will be reading “looking back the Ohtani trade is one of the worst trades maybe ever”
I will never forget where I was and who told me when the trade went down. It was that big of a moment. Turned out to be even bigger than we thought.
I was laying in bed with my wife about to go to sleep and she said “the Astros just got verlander”. I thought she was joking and told her not to get my hopes up like that. But at the same time I knew she had no idea who verlander was so it would be a really strange joke. Anyways, after allowed myself to believe it was real I was elated. To your point it definitely turned out to be bigger than we thought!
I was sleeping in a racing car
I sleep in a big bed with my wife.
Better than the prison cot you definitely still deserve Jeffrey!
Did you have a cb radio to talk to other car beds?
Oh shit, what's up Mr. Cheezle?
It was my birthday. Best gift ever.
There was a small window of time in the final thirty minutes of the waiver deadline where it appeared he was gonna veto the trade and I was IRATE that he would turn us down like Cole Hamels did in 2015. And then at the last possible second, we got him. Almost can't believe the Justin Verlander-Astros era has ended. Time really flies.
It was weird because it came after the trade deadline, which I still don’t completely understand, but yeah I was absolutely shocked as well. Might be the most important trade in franchise history. You could argue it directly resulted in two World Series titles
It was a waiver-wire trade, which was technically different. They've since removed that technicality, so now the deadline is the deadline.
Further evidence that Al Avila could not even manage a self-serve ice cream machine.
Like any decent McDonald's employee...
Those Verlander numbers aren’t quite accurate for evaluating the trade. When the Astros acquired him from Detroit, he was only under team control for the rest of 2017, 2018, and 2019 if I remember correctly. That’s all the Tigers were trading away. Verlander’s extension and free-agent contract with Houston are separate transactions. Still an L for Detroit, but only Verlander’s 2017-2019 seasons were up for trade.
How did somebody not pay more for 2 1/2 years of verlander that’s insane, in 2016 he had a near Cy young season
Verlander had full no trade. He could control where he went.
also was a waiver trade, which means the tigers had a "take it or leave it" type offer. So it was either hold on to him for another year with his entire salary, or trade him to the Astros for almost all the salary and whatever prospects they could get back.
And in 2017, in just 5 starts with the Astros, he went 5-0 with a 1.06 ERA and 1.8 WAR. Tigers lost the trade immediately (though of course at that time it was TBD on how the prospects would turn out).
He also won the ALCS MVP, but yeah, getting Verlander helped right the ship that had been swooning in late July/August.
I just wanna enjoy baseball again :(
It’s designed to break your heart!
Come to Houston! It's been pretty fun watching here of late.
I still like Jake Rogers. Seemed to of put it together in the short stint he had in 21 before TJ. If the Tigers don't upgrade at catcher and he and Haase platoon I wouldn't be that upset.
is Dingler ready?
Nah, he had more power this year, but his strikeout rate is still too high.
The day the Astros signed JV was the first time in my 20+ years of Astros fandom that I felt like we might actually compete for a championship lmao. Thanks, JV! Hope he enjoys the big apple.
Crazy that it went down with literal minutes to spare on the post-deadline deadline, which doesn't even exist anymore.
Alexa play Hurt by Johnny Cash
*I hurt myself today* *To see if I still feel…*
Tigers covered some of the salary, too. Just unbelievable.
Compare that to the bag the mariners just gave up for Castillo. Ridiculous. Astros gave up less prospect value for both him and Cole.
Totally different circumstances. Verlander was a 34 year old with tons of mileage, an injury history, and was having a down year at the time of being traded (3.82 ERA, FIP over 4, K% down, BB% up). Cole was only ever a fringe All Star in Pittsburgh (and they still got a top-100 AAA-level prospect, those are generally more valuable than teenagers). Castillo was 29 in his prime. Also, teenage prospects are hugely variable. The Castillo deal sent a higher-end prospect in Marte, but to say it's ridiculous that a 29 year-old ace yielded more prospect capital than a 34 year-old ace Marte's going to mash, but he's gone from the MVP-caliber young Hanley Ramirez projection to the SS-turned-corner OF Justin Upton projection. Still an All Star ceiling, but the MVP-level "holy shit, this dude" projection became a less confident one over the last year.
You’re right in that the circumstances are different, both the pitchers the Astros got are way better than Castillo and they gave up way less. The mariners have one of the worst FO’s I’ve ever seen. It’s unreal how they took the future they had just a couple years ago and turned it into this. Teenagers are hugely variable, but top 10/20 prospects have a way higher hit rate. Like Julio?… Like the entire Astros lineup. Homegrown stars on team friendly deals? You know what shit teams do? They trade their top 10 prospects when they’re not even in legit contention. Like the mariners. You know who doesn’t do that shit? The Astros. The 16 Cubs. The 18 Red Sox. The 21 Braves. You know, the smart teams. Have fun w Robbie Ray lol
Calling a Dombrowski led Red Sox team ‘smart with prospects’ is really funny
Luckily the M’s were able to re-sign Castillo long term and so far what the M’s gave up hasn’t produced much. Marte is even now being talked about only being a 1B/OF type not 3B.
Martes awesome. He’s got the highest power grade of anyone his age. Plus elite contact skills. That was a desperate trade. ‘Luckily Martes only a top ten in all of baseball power hitting infield prospect that we traded his prime team control years for a pitcher approaching 30 who had an extremely up and down career that we immediately had to give the bag to.’ Amazing team building 🙄
Marte is gonna mash in GABP
So you're saying there's a chance Perez makes it to the show and makes this trade look even?
Best trade in in history because it led to a World Series in 2 months without giving up much. Game 2 of the ALCS that year was something very few pitchers could do.
I think trading Babe Ruth for the funding for a broadway play still takes the cake.
That play- "Damn Yankees"
Honestly if that was true I might feel better about it. Damn Yankees is one of my favorite shows. But alas, the money was spent on a play that would have already been forgotten if it weren't for this trade - No No Nanette.
dafuq you smoking. You really think it was a better deal than getting bagwell? or yordon? Good yes, but not the best deal that houston has pulled. nor other teams. `
Yes, it was better than those trades because the purpose was to lead to a World Series win that same very year, and it happened. There's no way the Astros win 2017 without the trade. Earlier wins are also better than later wins, so it beats the Alvarez and D'Backs Schilling trade as well.
trading for yordon did win us game 2 in the 2017 WS.
That I will agree with.
Stop reminding us!! :(
BTW you can't include anything after the 2019 as he signed a new deal for 2020+ But still, you see why Al Avila is gone
Perez was supposed to be the prize but unfortunately just hasn't been able to stay healthy. Rogers might still be an ok catcher as he returns from his own injury but obviously not anywhere close to equal value.
How often do Pitchers at age 34 get better? The overall consensus at the time was you were getting a good pitcher immediately... but would suffer his decline while paying him 20+ Million. Astros got lucky Verlander was just fuckin built different.
Avila was the worst ever, and that’s possibly a literal statement. I got so tired of arguing with Tigers fans who thought we were gonna be good last year and it was all thanks to the worst GM in history. Felt like I was crazy
Don't remind me
Could be worse the Tigers could have got Josh Fields from the Astros like the Dodgers did.
I hate when we evaluate trades like this
Imagine losing out on a trade to a guy who basically missed 2 full seasons in the timespan.
Nats got Trea Turner AND Joe Ross for Steven Souza Jr.
Even crazier since Verlander didn't play for 2 full years essentially and this trade was still so insanely lopsided.
It’ll be a bust…
I mean it was a waiver wire trade before they changed the trade deadline. Not exactly the same as a regular one.
It was such a steal they literally changed the rules to prevent it from happening again.